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Old 10-27-2020, 06:51 PM   #1
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Exclamation This Boat Needs Banning...

...from ALL lakes—not just New Hampshire's:





Wakeboat with space for 28 people...

Motor Boat and Yachting

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Old 10-27-2020, 07:49 PM   #2
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Its electric, boogie woogie

with probably never get built
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:56 PM   #3
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Yes, there have been some boats we didn't like--but banning is not "Live Free or Die" at least until something negative is demonstrated.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:09 PM   #4
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Live Free and Try. 🐻
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Old 10-29-2020, 07:18 PM   #5
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Question "Something" Negative?

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Yes, there have been some boats we didn't like--but banning is not "Live Free or Die" at least until something negative is demonstrated.
THE POSITIVE...I like that the helm is well forward, so the operator is the first to encounter any poor seamanship.

The builder goes on to claim:

1) Top speed should be 18-22 knots, with a surfing speed of 9-14 knots and a run time of 4-5 hours.

2) This concept will create a head-height wake that will barrel like an ocean wave allowing the surfer to ride inside it, which should be pretty spectacular!

"Spectacular" isn't the word for it...
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Old 10-29-2020, 08:11 PM   #6
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Not in my backyard!
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Old 10-29-2020, 09:02 PM   #7
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The good news is that this thing flies in the face of every other electric vehicle design. Batteries are heavy and expensive, so EV manufacturers work hard to reduce resistance (displacement) compared to combustion engine vehicles. Otherwise, the batteries get into this vicious cycle of more weight leading to more cost, and then more weight and cost again as the batteries need to move themselves as well as the rest of the car/boat.

Now these guys want to maximize displacement? Not happening without a dramatic not-yet-on-the-horizon battery advance
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Old 10-30-2020, 06:48 AM   #8
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Default Electric Vehicles

Google the mining process for those rare earth ingredients going into the batteries. Polluted mining processes and child labor. Plus the carbon footprint to build them! Ever thought of how they are going to dispose of the batteries????

Environment aside, I was reading about an electric supercar that runs circles around any gas vehicles made. Batteries need to be recharge after 2 hours of hard use. Took 12 hours to recharge!
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Old 10-30-2020, 10:00 AM   #9
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It is not in my nature to ban things or tell others what to do but these wake boats are causing erosion issues. We have a case of rights in conflict. There are things I would like to do to my shoreline at my expense that would help stop the erosion but I cannot. Maybe instead of banning wake boats we could allow more flexibility for homeowners who want to add some rocks or natural erosion barriers to their shoreline.
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Old 10-30-2020, 10:40 AM   #10
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So If you look at this boat, and the website, this is not something your weekend warrior is going to be buying. It would appear to be aimed at the commercial market.

It is boasting a 35' hull length, and at 10'6" beam.... Not something most people are going to want to deal with....

Will one show up on the lake, if it takes off? Probably, as a commercial venture I could certainly see it.

Wakeboaters are getting the message, I have several buy me. This year there was a much more noticeable effort to stay out away from shore....

This lake is big enough for everyone.....

Its funny no one used to complain about the wake from the Mount, when she had the enterprise diesels.... and traveled at a higher rate of speed.... those where very surfer able waves...
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Old 10-30-2020, 10:46 AM   #11
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Its funny no one used to complain about the wake from the Mount, when she had the enterprise diesels.... and traveled at a higher rate of speed.... those where very surfer able waves...
That is because the Mount would go by once or twice a day. These wakeboats set up in one spot and spend hours blasting their stereos and making big wakes in that area.

Is it possible to enjoy wakeboarding without a blasting stereo?

How about a waterproof bluetooth headset so only the wakeboarder has to hear the "music"?
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Old 01-23-2021, 06:06 AM   #12
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Thumbs up Not Just the Noise...

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Live Free and Try. 🐻
Injuries ashore to grandchildren on Smith Mountain Lake have Virginia authorities considering a ban of the practice of wake-surfing.

https://beachgrit.com/2021/01/virgin...into-the-dock/

Unlike New Hampshire, Virginia state government is rapidly changing the state.

You'll remember Smith Mountain Lake as the doppelganger for Lake Winnipesaukee in the iconic film, "On Golden Pond", staring Jane Fonda.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:37 AM   #13
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Here's the 'Final Report of the Commission to Study Wake Boats - New Hampshire' ..... dated June 30, 2020 ...... a 28-page, State of New Hampshire report that is easily Googled for reading.

The New Hampshire Marine Trades Association ..... www.boatingnh.com ...... has a political action committee that funnels political donations from NH boat dealers and national boat makers to NH-Republican state representatives and state senators so basically, absolutely nothing much will be happening to discourage the wake boats.

And besides all this political, money contributions stuff ....... big bad waves ARE big bad fun! Having them send big waves into my small shoreline is fun, fun, fun! Is like a big huge challenge to surf the big wake, boat waves on a stand up paddle board, (a sup) , or a kayak, canoe or small jon boat with two oars. Is like the difference between relatively smooth, calm or weekend choppy water and a big, powerful 2-3' high wave coming inbound.

Here it comes ....... a big wave coming this way ....... keep 'em coming here ....... lov'n those big, bad waves!

Big waves are big fun! Smooth, calm water is so dull and boring!

So, just go get yourself an 11'6"-long x 32"-wide SUP and go hit those big waves ....... and become a TEENAGER, again ...... ..... there's no stoppn' the wake boat, wake waves ...... so's you might as well go get out there and hit those waves! A $250 inflatable rigid sup will weigh only 22-lbs and support a 200-lb person, standing up and paddling one of those long sup paddles.

These very expensive $80,000-wake boats have inboard engines and cruise control and they cruise along, making a big wake, at a relatively slow speed of something like 22-mph, maybe a little faster, to create their best wake-surfing wake which can have NO tow line attached between the boat and the surfer.

..........................

So, what's missing from the first beautiful photo at www.boatingnh.com with the Mount Washington and the boats all docked up along the Weirs wooden public dock ....... what's missing from this picture is the 62'-long x 22'-wide Dive barge, a floating bar-restaurant with two outboard motors.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:47 AM   #14
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You'll remember Smith Mountain Lake as the doppelganger for Lake Winnipesaukee in the iconic film, "On Golden Pond", staring Jane Fonda.
Smith Mountain Lake posed as Lake Winnipesaukee in the film What About Bob. It wasn't used for On Golden Pond.
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Old 01-24-2021, 09:59 AM   #15
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If there is a boat that needs to be banned it would be those big cabin cruisers. When they go by I have to turn my 13' Alaskan into those waves. They are huge. Overall there is to much big boat traffic on the lake. Not very comfortable when fishing.

On a second note what is the sense of anything electric. The energy to charge the batteries mostly comes from fossil fuel power plants. Now if you use alternate energy to charge the batteries that would be 100% different. There are more and more alternate energy sources but overall people do not want to be inconvenienced.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:32 AM   #16
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As commented about the Mount Washington, the cabin cruiser goes by once, not making waves hour after hour. I bet the guy in the cabin cruiser doesn't like that you troll in the middle of the channel/travel route. You're even.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:42 AM   #17
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Actual they're going by all day. One after the other. The fish are not in the channel anyway in a so called channel it is headway speed. When these boats go by I am 100's of yards away. The reality is I fish very early and the boat traffic is quiet. It's trying to get home that is the challenge. These large yachts are dangerous to my safety. Your welcome.
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Old 01-24-2021, 11:39 AM   #18
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If there is a boat that needs to be banned it would be those big cabin cruisers. When they go by I have to turn my 13' Alaskan into those waves. They are huge. Overall there is to much big boat traffic on the lake. Not very comfortable when fishing.

On a second note what is the sense of anything electric. The energy to charge the batteries mostly comes from fossil fuel power plants. Now if you use alternate energy to charge the batteries that would be 100% different. There are more and more alternate energy sources but overall people do not want to be inconvenienced.
Here's a great piece from MIT on the environmental and financial "sense" of electric cars. Huge benefits to the environment and often less expensive than gas. Boats are not ready for prime time yet--we need a few more years progress on battery efficiency.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-car-cost.html
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Old 01-24-2021, 11:52 AM   #19
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The only thing in that article that helps the environment is the fact electric vehicles do not need oil changes. Regenitive brake captures energy that has all been expended instead of wasting it to heat (brakes) but this comes at a cost of efficiency. The truth is most of our electric energy comes from fossil fuels. There are many losses get the energy to your home. Also batteries are only about 85% efficient. I am not sure of the exact numbers but the fact this is never mentioned tells me it may not be worth it at this time except if alternate energy is being used.
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Old 01-24-2021, 02:40 PM   #20
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The only thing in that article that helps the environment is the fact electric vehicles do not need oil changes. Regenitive brake captures energy that has all been expended instead of wasting it to heat (brakes) but this comes at a cost of efficiency. The truth is most of our electric energy comes from fossil fuels. There are many losses get the energy to your home. Also batteries are only about 85% efficient. I am not sure of the exact numbers but the fact this is never mentioned tells me it may not be worth it at this time except if alternate energy is being used.
You're speculating reasonably, but with no numbers or research. The point of the article is that we need to measure the carbon emitted per mile for each type of generation. Electricity from a fossil fuel power plant is less carbon intensive that gasoline burning in your car, as measured by researchers from MIT. It's silly to assert they did not account for battery efficiency--those numbers are baked into EPA eMPG estimates.

There is nothing wasteful or inefficient about regenerative braking compared to regular brakes. In both situations we lose exactly the same amount of energy already generated by the motor. But with regenerative braking, that energy gets returned to the battery for future use instead of burnt up by the brake pads.
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Old 01-24-2021, 02:49 PM   #21
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Yes, understood I know all this. You missed my point or maybe I wasn't clear enough. Either way more data is needed.
MIT => My Idiot Teenage
My aunt said this always found is amusing.
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Old 01-24-2021, 07:18 PM   #22
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Yes, understood I know all this. You missed my point or maybe I wasn't clear enough. Either way more data is needed.
MIT => My Idiot Teenage
My aunt said this always found is amusing.
If you think a team from MIT cannot calculate the environmental and financial impact of cars, or somehow should be given no more credibility than you in your armchair with zero data or your witty aunt, it's not worth discussing.

It's this kind of anti-science nihilism that leaves so many in the dark
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:06 PM   #23
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The only thing in that article that helps the environment is the fact electric vehicles do not need oil changes. Regenitive brake captures energy that has all been expended instead of wasting it to heat (brakes) but this comes at a cost of efficiency. The truth is most of our electric energy comes from fossil fuels. There are many losses get the energy to your home. Also batteries are only about 85% efficient. I am not sure of the exact numbers but the fact this is never mentioned tells me it may not be worth it at this time except if alternate energy is being used.
The batteries are actually about 92% efficient.

True, a lot of electricity does come from fossil fuel. But the turbines at the station are way more efficient than having your own power plant under your hood. So even with efficiency loss at the power plant, transmission losses to your home and charging losses it's still more efficient than a private power plant under each hood.

But not all electricity does come from fossil fuel. And some fossil fuels are cleaner burning than others.

And the electric power plants can burn cleaner.

So overall it's a win and should get better over time.

The biggest problem with EV is battery lifetime. The lifetime of an average ICE car might be say 20 years. Where today, it might be more like 10-12 years for an EV battery. It's not cost effective to replace the battery. And building a car (EV or ICE) has impact to the environment.

Tesla is working hard (as well as many companies) are trying hard to fix that. The "Million mile battery". Tesla has some things in the pipe that might double or triple the battery lifetime. Probably in 1-2 years. But you need to start somewhere and what is produced now, might be arguably be worth it (barely, wallet wise and environment wise). But it's the right direction in my opinion. Damn I sure wish I bought Tesla stock.

They are also working hard to come up with chemistry that uses less and less of the rare metals. This video, now 2 years old explains some of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGFiaWvD-KI&t=22s

The way I look at it, the more we diversify our energy production and use the better. To much of ANY one form is bad. But good batteries are a win because they can be charged with many types of fuel. I charge mine with the sun But I know, that has waste too when solar panels need replacing.

Note that electricity is pretty expensive in NewEngland compared to many parts of the country. So the cost savings are not that great. Unless you bought into Solar. Which helps a ton. I also wouldn't want to own a Tesla without a Garage. Excess heat from an ICE is a good thing when your car is a frozen igloo. It's a real hassle (and expensive) with an EV.
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:41 PM   #24
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Note that electricity is pretty expensive in NewEngland compared to many parts of the country. So the cost savings are not that great. Unless you bought into Solar. Which helps a ton. I also wouldn't want to own a Tesla without a Garage. Excess heat from an ICE is a good thing when your car is a frozen igloo. It's a real hassle (and expensive) with an EV.
I own a Tesla, and am mostly without a garage. The cost of electricity per mile is about half the cost I was paying for gasoline. Also, my car heats up faster than a gas car, and I can turn the heat on from my phone app in advance.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:28 PM   #25
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DOT has been complaining for years that the EV folks don't pay their "fair share" of road tolls (gas tax), and they're pressuring the legislature(s) to fix that. The penalties for gas guzzlers forced many into EV, and soon they will pay the penalty for their good deeds. This is a problem nationwide, not just NH, so look for a bad federal solution.
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Old 01-24-2021, 10:29 PM   #26
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I own a Tesla, and am mostly without a garage. The cost of electricity per mile is about half the cost I was paying for gasoline. Also, my car heats up faster than a gas car, and I can turn the heat on from my phone app in advance.
Which model do you have? Doesn't matter that much but...

Cars comparable to Model 3 are getting like 38 mpg, and hybrid's are getting 50 mpg and only add $5K-$10k up front.

Let's run a few numbers to depress me

Some EV's use miles per Kilowatt Hour for their "MPG" gauge.
Teslas use "Watt Hours Per Mile" or Wh / mi for short.

Model 3 AWD EPA is about 250 wh / mi (warm weather, full regen, NO HVAC)
Model X EPA is about 300 wh / mi (warm weather, full regen, NO HVAC)

Winter is worse because of lower regenerative braking and auxiliary heating.

My Model X averaging 320 Wh/mi (1 year), that's VERY good BTW.
Charging is ~92% efficient.
So let's divide that 320 wh / mi by 0.92 = 347 Wh/mi
Or 0.347 kWh/mi
That's what it cost (in kilowatt hours) from the house electric meter to go 1 mile.

Now multiple that by $0.26 kWh (MA rate) that is 9 cents a mile.

Now let's compare my 2017 Jeep GC which got about 26 mpg (it was rated 24 mpg) $2.25 per gallon of gas / 26 mpg = 8.5 cents per mile.

Note: I want to say that Solar is NOT free.
A good rule of thumb is approx $0.08 / kWh (amortizing cost to install over 20 years)
Now EV is WAY cheaper. And I get free supercharging (which I effectively pre paid for in the Vehicle price).
Some part of the country only pay $0.08 / kWh !!!

Let's do the Model 3

I was getting around 250 wh / mi (close to EPA rating year round, better than EPA in summer)
250 / 0.92 = 0.271 kWh / mi
Most people I know do worse than EPA, I drive with a very light foot.

Let's use NH Electric Rates of $0.17 / kWh

That's 4.6 cents per mile.

I like to compare something like an Audi A4 MPG that gets 31 mpg (highway) that comes to 7 cents per mile. There are other nice sedans in high 30's.

It would have to be 3.5 cents to pay half, in NH. Still not bad.
It comes out to about 7 cents a mile if you use MA electricity cost of $0.26 / kWh

City (IN THE SUMMER) will definitely favor EV quite a bit more.

Even coming CLOSE to ICE efficiency is a fantastic achievement. And it will continue to get better and better. They have already added 50 miles range to my car and it's a little over a year old for the same size battery.

And the savings in Oil changes and brakes is in the noise. I maybe spend $60.00 a year on oil changes. Pads wear slower but the brakes still maintenance on Tesla, partly from lack of use.

Don't get me wrong that there is a huge list of pluses having an EV or a Tesla EV.

Leave your car running in garage, who cares, don't forget to turn it OFF though !!
Leave your dogs in the car while you go for dinner in the summer, no problem.
Full tank every morning I rarely stop at a supercharger, I might if I'm hungry. Love the Hooksett Rest Areas.
Acceleration with barely anyone noticing (except passengers).
The Autopilot (Which is coming along on other brands) is really nice, I absolutely HATE driving anything else now.
Tesla track record on crash tests in their respective category.
Navigation screen is a dream, I use it for almost every destination.
I do like how it updates like an iPhone. I LOVE the beep when the light turns green. No more, honey can you watch the light while I find the music I want.
Model X has driving experience that's hard to explain and you have to drive one to understand.
Handling, because of the battery low Center of Gravity they all handle way better than top heavy ICE Vehicles. Which in of itself makes the car much safer.
And yeah, the integration of phone is really nice. Other car companies can't touch it (yet). One thing I miss from Model 3 is "Phone as Key".
Model 3 heated faster than Model X. But Model X is still very fast compared to ICE. They have switched to Heat pump in 3/Y which is slower.

I am curious when a boat will be worth it.
Quick torque to pop on skies
Low noise would be pretty cool.
No more gasoline vapors to worry about
No Carbon monoxide poisoning that could kill you (and has) would be a real plus too.
Not to mention all the other nasty fumes while idling.
No oil changes, which is a real pain on a boat.
No winterizing !! Most likely, might still use lake water to cool. Bottom of boat could be a battery heat sink.
High speed charging things can get HOT !!
You forget all the compromises we've been programmed to just deal with.

But all that water and high voltages doesn't feel so good.

Last edited by mswlogo; 01-25-2021 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Edited my numbers and used year round average which so happens to be EPA rating.
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Old 01-25-2021, 12:07 PM   #27
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Default Good info

MSWLogo Thanks for lots of good info. Still miss my Lincoln Town Cars.
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Old 01-25-2021, 12:34 PM   #28
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DOT has been complaining for years that the EV folks don't pay their "fair share" of road tolls (gas tax), and they're pressuring the legislature(s) to fix that. The penalties for gas guzzlers forced many into EV, and soon they will pay the penalty for their good deeds. This is a problem nationwide, not just NH, so look for a bad federal solution.
That's a great point and discussed a lot on the EV forums.
Some states have huge "flat" EV fees.

Someone has to pay for the roads.
Currently in MA and NH there is no EV fee, but it's bound to come sooner or later.
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Old 01-25-2021, 01:16 PM   #29
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That's a great point and discussed a lot on the EV forums.
Some states have huge "flat" EV fees.

Someone has to pay for the roads.
Currently in MA and NH there is no EV fee, but it's bound to come sooner or later.
There was a NH law proposed a few years ago to have a tiered flat rate surcharge for registration based on miles driven, calculated from annual inspections. Pretty intrusive to many, and others complained that the state was billing them when they mostly drove on in-town local roads. Of course, if you drive only in town, you still pay the gas tax to the state. And yes, the flat rates seemed high compared to comparable gas use. It's a lot easier for many to pay $0.05/gallon than it is to write a check for $300 to register your car.
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Old 01-25-2021, 01:33 PM   #30
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Exclamation ...... Tesla's will definitely be stopp'n for donuts!

For the incredibly expensive Tesla cars, it gives the driver a great excuse to stop and eat a jelly doughnut at the 7-car Tesla-Dunk'n Donuts charging station in Ashland, NH, the geographic center of New Hampshire.

When it comes to eat'n donuts ....... www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut ......you want to be driving a Tesla! .....

So, is it time to eat the donuts, or what? Is that why Tesla calls its volt-meter a donut-meter and it has a small picture of a honey glazed donut, there, on the dashboard.

Drive a Tesla in New Hampshire, and you automatically get to stop every 175-miles at another Dunk'n Donuts!

Is why they call the Tesla, the donut-mobile ....... drive a Tesla and you be forever stopp'n for donuts!
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Last edited by fatlazyless; 01-25-2021 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 01-25-2021, 01:58 PM   #31
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Hi msw--I'm not worthy! Seriously, nice job on the math.

I have a 2017 Tesla S, it's my third EV. I have not done the actual math for several years--the plummeting price of gas may have changed things more than I thought. At the time I did the math, electricity at my house was 1/3 the price of gas per mile.

Bigger picture--I was psyched to see from the article that the total cost of a Tesla 3 is approximately average compared to a gas car, but I did not buy electric for the $. The thing I love is the combination of high performance like a Corvette, smooth/quiet driving like a Caddy, and environmental friendliness like a Prius.
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Old 01-25-2021, 06:52 PM   #32
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I think you should all consider starting a new topic at this point. It has completely drifted off topic now from boats to cars.

Pretty soon we will be on the free coffee and donuts
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Old 01-26-2021, 08:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top-Water View Post
I think you should all consider starting a new topic at this point. It has completely drifted off topic now from boats to cars.

Pretty soon we will be on the free coffee and donuts
Threads do get hijacked but I have a thought on the OP topic
I think people should be responsible for their wakes.
As a courtesy, I always throttle down for a fisherman, paddleboarder, kayak or canoe and I'd never dream of passing close to someone's dock or beach throwing off a large wake.
I'm wondering if a homeowner would have the right to seek damages for shore erosion or damage to boats and docks from wake boats
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Old 01-26-2021, 11:40 AM   #34
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Samiam...

Yes, the by law the boat owner is responsible for any damage caused by their wake.

The hard part is proving it in court. With all the intangibles in play, I am not sure the MP will get involved unless you have an open/shut case.

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