Wow trail

[joey2665]

City is spending 40k for a feasibility study on the extension of the trail.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...315ddb3db.html



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[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

City is spending 40k for a feasibility study on the extension of the trail.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...315ddb3db.html



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Yet another lie from our City Council to the taxpayers of Laconia. We were told that they would spend $10K, and that the WOW Trail organization would cover it. Disappointing.

The good news is that the WOW Trail extension to Meredith seems impossible based on the financial and non-financial obstacles.

[TheVoiceOfReason]

Originally Posted by Major

The good news is that the WOW Trail extension to Meredith seems impossible based on the financial and non-financial obstacles.

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be considered good news?

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TheVoiceOfReason

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be considered good news?

I guessing Major is against extending the trail


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[Major]

Originally Posted by TheVoiceOfReason

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be considered good news?

1. Waste of taxpayer money for construction and maintenance, especially given its limited use.
2. Bad for the environment, especially during construction.
3. Impinges on the rights of landowners along the trail.
4. If the organizers get their wish, it will eliminate a profitable rail car enterprise.
5. Will create an unsightly fence all along Paugus Bay.
6. It's a continuance of an avenue of egress for criminals who inhabit the present trail.
7. The WOW Trail is merely a feel good endeavor for Laconia elites.

I'm sure I forgot some. Jetskiier can fill in the gaps!

[TheVoiceOfReason]

Originally Posted by Major

1. Waste of taxpayer money for construction and maintenance, especially given its limited use.
2. Bad for the environment, especially during construction.
3. Impinges on the rights of landowners along the trail.
4. If the organizers get their wish, it will eliminate a profitable rail car enterprise.
5. Will create an unsightly fence all along Paugus Bay.
6. It's a continuance of an avenue of egress for criminals who inhabit the present trail.
7. The WOW Trail is merely a feel good endeavor for Laconia elites.

I'm sure I forgot some. Jetskiier can fill in the gaps!

Thank you for clarifying your position. To be clear, I haven't formed an opinion on the trail one way or the other, but I'm a year-round Meredith resident so found your original comment interesting. A rebuttal to your 7 points from a "devil's-advocate" standpoint.

1. That's what the study is for, to determine if it's worth the investment. I grant you that one could argue that 40K for the study is waste enough.
2. No worse than any other construction, so should we just avoid improving any infrastructure? In today's society, DES would ensure that the environmental impacts would be minimal.
3. I'm not going to address this one. This forum has seen too much back and forth regarding whether the WOW trail is impinging on the rights of abutting landowners. I understand both sides and each person needs to make their own judgement.
4. There's no reason the two can't co-exist.
5. What's unsightly to some may be aesthetically pleasing to someone else. I haven't seen the fence design and have not even seen confirmation that a fence the full length of the trail would be required. There are already many unsightly things along Paugus Bay, a fence would be the least of our worries.
6. This is unfounded and amounts to fear-mongering IMO.
7. I know many good people on both sides of the issue. They are spread up and down the socioeconomic spectrum. Some would counter that it is a few "Laconia Elites" in a certain gated community that are the project's biggest objectors, so declaring the WOW Trail a movement propelled by "Laconia Elites" really isn't accurate.

Again, I very much respect your position on the issue, just merely playing devil's advocate.

[Major]

Originally Posted by TheVoiceOfReason

Thank you for clarifying your position. To be clear, I haven't formed an opinion on the trail one way or the other, but I'm a year-round Meredith resident so found your original comment interesting. A rebuttal to your 7 points from a "devil's-advocate" standpoint.

1. That's what the study is for, to determine if it's worth the investment. I grant you that one could argue that 40K for the study is waste enough.
2. No worse than any other construction, so should we just avoid improving any infrastructure? In today's society, DES would ensure that the environmental impacts would be minimal.
3. I'm not going to address this one. This forum has seen too much back and forth regarding whether the WOW trail is impinging on the rights of abutting landowners. I understand both sides and each person needs to make their own judgement.
4. There's no reason the two can't co-exist.
5. What's unsightly to some may be aesthetically pleasing to someone else. I haven't seen the fence design and have not even seen confirmation that a fence the full length of the trail would be required. There are already many unsightly things along Paugus Bay, a fence would be the least of our worries.
6. This is unfounded and amounts to fear-mongering IMO.
7. I know many good people on both sides of the issue. They are spread up and down the socioeconomic spectrum. Some would counter that it is a few "Laconia Elites" in a certain gated community that are the project's biggest objectors, so declaring the WOW Trail a movement propelled by "Laconia Elites" really isn't accurate.

Again, I very much respect your position on the issue, just merely playing devil's advocate.

Thanks. I enjoy the debate. I will address your comments in reverse order.

7. I grew up in Laconia, and trust me, none of the Laconia elites live in SD/LB. They are comprised of small business owners in the area. I can name names, but don't think it's worthwhile.

6. Regarding whether the WOW Trail is an avenue of egress for criminals, it's not opinion but fact. In another thread (I couldn't find it), the City published the number of incidents (calls) for the WOW Trail. It's staggering, something like 150 incidents over a six-year period. This number does not include the number of homeless people living in camps off of the WOW Trail that require evacuation from time-to-time. Also, I've had conversations with a former police chief who described the WOW Trail as an "avenue of egress" for criminals. The police are instructed to publicly downplay the criminal element, but privately, they hate the WOW Trail since it makes policing difficult.

5. Regarding the fence, if the trail and the railroad coexist, I'm pretty sure a fence is required. A fence will most certainly be required through SD/LB and in front of other private property if only for liability reasons.

4. WOW Trail organizers are going to make a heavy push for legislation to eliminate the railroad. If successful, this will achieve at least two advantages. It reduces the cost of construction. It also eliminates some huge design issues with Pickerel and Perch Coves.

3. Agreed.

2. Removing the railroad would incur some huge environmental issues caused by the chemically treated rail ties.

1. As a taxpayer, I don't want to pay for it.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Since this is an active Railroad I see no justification that it should be eliminated.

If this rail spur is abandoned then it starts a different discussion.

Safety is a major issue for both to coexist next to each other. Additionally, personal safety "could" be an issue due to potential criminal activity.



.

[joey2665]

As far as the fence goes, there are current 2 types of fences along the trail. Near the Belmont line there is a very nice would rail fence but in most of the Laconia portion it is an unsightly chain link fence that would look absolutely terrible along the lakefront.

[8gv]

My opinion is that the trail extension is supported by a few people who need a consulting firm to come up with the justification for its construction.



What is the status of the Colonial Theatre project?

I did not live in Laconia when that project was considered, accepted and started.

Is there a parallel to what is happening with the WOW trail?

How much tax payer money went into the still closed theatre?

If the theatre ever gets finished, where will people park to see a performance?

The downtown parking garage has safety issues and likely needs to be replaced.



Why is the city wasting money on studying the WOW Trail extension when these two items are in need?

See the opinion offered at the begining of this post.

BTW...

$40K could buy a good part of the annual salary for a police officer or teacher.

[stingray]

Has the east side of Paugus Bay been ruled out? The tracks that went up that side are obviously abandoned. Much more commercial opportunities. Still can get to the Weirs and/or Gilford.

The commercial opportunities on the west side are what? SD/LB Grandchildren’s lemonade stands?

BTW, have you counted how many registered offenders are in the Lake Port area?

https://www.familywatchdog.us/showmap.asp


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[Bigstan]

BTW, have you counted how many registered offenders are in the Lake Port area?

https://www.familywatchdog.us/showmap.asp


Wow, there are a LOT. Who knew it was that many? Not me....

[joey2665]

Why does the city have to pay the 40k for a feasibility study. Shouldn’t this be paid from funds raised by the WOW Trail organization? This is their project not a city project.


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[winnipiseogee]

Most of my family is from Cape Cod (yeah - I'm a recovering masshole...) . I remember the same battle playing out and the many of the exact same arguments being made against the Cape Cod rail trail. Now in its 4th decade, it is a huge tourist draw and real estate adjacent to the trail commands a significant premium.

Wolfeboro has a rather nice and heavily used railtrail and to the best of my knowledge there is no significant crime that occurs along the trail.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by winnipiseogee

Most of my family is from Cape Cod (yeah - I'm a recovering masshole...) . I remember the same battle playing out and the many of the exact same arguments being made against the Cape Cod rail trail. Now in its 4th decade, it is a huge tourist draw and real estate adjacent to the trail commands a significant premium.



Wolfeboro has a rather nice and heavily used railtrail and to the best of my knowledge there is no significant crime that occurs along the trail.

I really don’t think crime is a big issue. Nothing will change what’s the difference if them “criminals” walk along the current tracks or a trail. I had my home broken into by criminals coming into Long Bay from the tracks.

I am in favor of the trail but with the following caveats:

1. There must be an amicable agreement with the majority of owners along the trail including developments like South Down and Long Bay

2. NO chain link fencing, it must be esthetically pleasing and have sufficient access points to the lake.

3. The rail road must remain

4. Funding MUST NOT come from the city, raising money privately as they first two phases were

Given my stance I seriously doubt the next phase will be completed




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[SAMIAM]

I have been a Rails to Trails member in Florida and have biked and walked several of them while on vacation and enjoy it very much.
Those trails, however, do not require fences or run in front of peoples homes.
I can't imagine a 4 mile long chain link fence across the entire Paugus Bay waterfront. Not only would it be unsightly but deer and other animals would be cut off from the water.
I have no dog in this fight since I don't live anywhere near South Down and my concern is the impact on our beautiful shore front.
My suggestion would be to let it go....The WOW trail organizers mean well but it seems that they have accomplished their goal. The trail extends from Winnisquam to Winnipesaukee

[Major]

Originally Posted by winnipiseogee

Most of my family is from Cape Cod (yeah - I'm a recovering masshole...) . I remember the same battle playing out and the many of the exact same arguments being made against the Cape Cod rail trail. Now in its 4th decade, it is a huge tourist draw and real estate adjacent to the trail commands a significant premium.

Wolfeboro has a rather nice and heavily used railtrail and to the best of my knowledge there is no significant crime that occurs along the trail.

Wolfeboro has a different demographic than Laconia, which has a disproportionate share of Section 8 housing and several drug treatment centers. If you spend any time in downtown Laconia you will be sure to see the criminal element.

[winnipiseogee]

Originally Posted by joey2665

3. The rail road must remain

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Joey - Everything else you mention seems to make sense but I've got to ask - and I'm doing so in good faith but relative ignorance - why is it so important for the railroad to remain?

I've lived in the lakes region full time for about 15 years. For a long time I owned a house on Meredith bay opposite the rail road tracks. I own a business that abutts the tracks. After selling my house on the bay I kept my boat at Meredith Marina. In all that time I've only seen the train running maybe half a dozen times at most.

I just googled their website and I'm amazed that it shows that many scheduled runs. I guess it must be used a lot but I never see it.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by winnipiseogee

Joey - Everything else you mention seems to make sense but I've got to ask - and I'm doing so in good faith but relative ignorance - why is it so important for the railroad to remain?

I've lived in the lakes region full time for about 15 years. For a long time I owned a house on Meredith bay opposite the rail road tracks. I own a business that abutts the tracks. After selling my house on the bay I kept my boat at Meredith Marina. In all that time I've only seen the train running maybe half a dozen times at most.

I just googled their website and I'm amazed that it shows that many scheduled runs. I guess it must be used a lot but I never see it.

It is someone's going concern that has been a successful business for years. I had lived in Long Bay for 10 years about 250 yards from the tracks and I also enjoys using the railroad at least once a year (My guests love it also) and it adds character and ambiance to the area. I'm still in the area just a bit further from the tacks now, I do miss hearing it and watching it go by from my old deck.

[TiltonBB]

Just a few questions:

Didn't most, if not all, of the people in SD/LB know prior to purchasing their homes that the development did not own the waterfront so their input and approval was not necessary to get the WOW trail built?

Would the same people who object to the WOW trail now have objected if the railroad was not there and someone was now suggesting putting down tracks and having a train go by and blow the whistle several times a day?

What is more intrusive: People walking on a trail or a train that goes by blowing the whistle several times per day?

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Just a few questions:

Didn't most, if not all, of the people in SD/LB know prior to purchasing their homes that the development did not own the waterfront so their input and approval was not necessary to get the WOW trail built?

Would the same people who object to the WOW trail now have objected if the railroad was not there and someone was now suggesting putting down tracks and having a train go by and blow the whistle several times a day?

What is more intrusive: People walking on a trail or a train that goes by blowing the whistle several times per day?

1) I purchase over the years in both SD and LB and it was NEVER disclosed to me on any document that the HOA's did not own the waterfront property

2) I'm sure they would have (for the record give the guidelines I presented in an above post I am in favor of the trail)

3) I don't think given the current structure either is intrusive


Love to hear what Jet Skier has to say. We differ in opinion but I do respect his side.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by joey2665

1) I purchase over the years in both SD and LB and it was NEVER disclosed to me on any document that the HOA's did not own the waterfront property

2) I'm sure they would have (for the record give the guidelines I presented in an above post I am in favor of the trail)

3) I don't think given the current structure either is intrusive


Love to hear what Jet Skier has to say. We differ in opinion but I do respect his side.

Hi Joey,

Sorry about the late entry into the discussion. I was in California with a client and just got back into town on the red eye this morning.

The frontage along Paugus was "taken" by the state in (I believe) 1973 when B&M railroad could not afford to make repairs to the tracks north of Meredith. A section of the track washed out and there was an active paper mill serviced by the railroad at that time. The taking by the state was explicitly to preserve the integrity of the rail system and specific to railroad use.

OK, right now there is a legislative action in draft in Concord that will become public in early January. The prevailing belief is that it is intended to create an abandonment of the railroad to re-purpose the rail bed for rails-to-trails vs. rails-with-trails. See the link below.

There are two active rail users of the proposed extension to the WOW trail. One is the Hobo railroad that provides the tourist excursions several times per day during the summer. The second is the New England Southern Railroad (see attached picture) which is an active freight line. The New England Southern Railroad has runs up to Lincoln predominantly in the spring and fall when the Hobo railroad is not operating. They carry large freight including rail cars for the MBTA in Boston.

SD and LB both have rights of access to the lake and I have never heard of any disclosure regarding the disposition of the taking as historically it has not had any bearing on the community. I certainly had no disclosure when I bought my property.

I think that shutting down two active businesses to construct a recreational trail is not rational from any perspective.


http://www.unionleader.com/news/poli...d8c442fc8.html

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jetskier

Hi Joey,

Sorry about the late entry into the discussion. I was in California with a client and just got back into town on the red eye this morning.

The frontage along Paugus was "taken" by the state in (I believe) 1973 when B&M railroad could not afford to make repairs to the tracks north of Meredith. A section of the track washed out and there was an active paper mill serviced by the railroad at that time. The taking by the state was explicitly to preserve the integrity of the rail system and specific to railroad use.

OK, right now there is a legislative action in draft in Concord that will become public in early January. The prevailing belief is that it is intended to create an abandonment of the railroad to re-purpose the rail bed for rails-to-trails vs. rails-with-trails. See the link below.

There are two active rail users of the proposed extension to the WOW trail. One is the Hobo railroad that provides the tourist excursions several times per day during the summer. The second is the New England Southern Railroad (see attached picture) which is an active freight line. The New England Southern Railroad has runs up to Lincoln predominantly in the spring and fall when the Hobo railroad is not operating. They carry large freight including rail cars for the MBTA in Boston.

SD and LB both have rights of access to the lake and I have never heard of any disclosure regarding the disposition of the taking as historically it has not had any bearing on the community. I certainly had no disclosure when I bought my property.

I think that shutting down two active businesses to construct a recreational trail is not rational from any perspective.

http://www.unionleader.com/news/poli...d8c442fc8.html

I absolutely agree shutting down two businesses for a trail is completely irrational.

Interesting information. I did not know the Clark Family owns the Hobo and Winnipesaukee Scenic Railways.


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[jetskier]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...b58f6d6f1.html

Incidentally, the economic study that the city of Laconia has commissioned with Alta is going to cost about $40k. The original Lipman proposal was $10k to be paid for by the WOW Committee. So now, tax payer dollars are funding a study to remove the tracks and shut down two businesses. Really!

Jetskier

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by jetskier

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...b58f6d6f1.html

Incidentally, the economic study that the city of Laconia has commissioned with Alta is going to cost about $40k. The original Lipman proposal was $10k to be paid for by the WOW Committee. So now, tax payer dollars are funding a study to remove the tracks and shut down two businesses. Really!

Jetskier

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

They are the Hobo railroad which runs the tourist train along the route and NH Southern Railroad which runs freight in the spring and fall via that route.

The Hobo Railroad has a contract with the state for operation along the route and NH Southern Railroad is a common carrier with a federal license to operate.

The Hobo railroad would be completely shutdown and the NH Southern Railroad would lose the northern portion of their operating route.

Jetskier

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

There's technically 4 businesses. And yes they are turning a profit on the state owned line and the state gets 10% of those profits.

1 - Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad (Doing business as Hobo Railroad and the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad)
2 - The Lincoln shops - supplies maintenance for the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad plus bids on outside contracts (like the MBTA for example), they refurbish cars and locomotives and is a year round operation. They just did work on a caboose for the MBTA and in fact, that caboose was just shipped out last week.
3. New England Southern Railroad - a common carrier railroad that has freight rights on the entire line from Concord to Lincoln.
4. Café Lafayette Dinner Train - if you know their history, cars have come and gone, and cutting off the railroad would hinder their ability to change and adapt as they see fit.

[winnipiseogee]

Thanks Trail Goer - thats really interesting information. I had no idea that the railway line was still being used to anything near that extent.

[Trail Goer]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...d6CQpHBasPUT_8


I'm sure the Daily Sun would love to bury this letter to the editor.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...d6CQpHBasPUT_8


I'm sure the Daily Sun would love to bury this letter to the editor.

Well written and very informative letter. As I have stated I do like the WOW trail but discontinuing and sacrificing the rail to extend the trail is a horrible idea.

[boat_guy64]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

There's technically 4 businesses. And yes they are turning a profit on the state owned line and the state gets 10% of those profits.

1 - Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad (Doing business as Hobo Railroad and the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad)
2 - The Lincoln shops - supplies maintenance for the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad plus bids on outside contracts (like the MBTA for example), they refurbish cars and locomotives and is a year round operation. They just did work on a caboose for the MBTA and in fact, that caboose was just shipped out last week.
3. New England Southern Railroad - a common carrier railroad that has freight rights on the entire line from Concord to Lincoln.
4. Café Lafayette Dinner Train - if you know their history, cars have come and gone, and cutting off the railroad would hinder their ability to change and adapt as they see fit.

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

[birchhaven]

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

I love the idea of a trolley you could flag down and ride to any where on the track. If the wow trail is built, it should allow snowmobiles (and utvs, atvs, etc) in the winter. And low speed carts in the summer.

I also think Laconia is researching the tracks overall inpact on the city. The city has more lake frontage than any town. Yet a large percentage is impacted by the tracks (and roads) , reducing the value of the propertys. It's not just about the wow trail.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by birchhaven

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

I love the idea of a trolley you could flag down and ride to any where on the track. If the wow trail is built, it should allow snowmobiles (and utvs, atvs, etc) in the winter. And low speed carts in the summer.

I also think Laconia is researching the tracks overall inpact on the city. The city has more lake frontage than any town. Yet a large percentage is impacted by the tracks (and roads) , reducing the value of the propertys. It's not just about the wow trail.

The city is paying $40k for an economic study essentially to try to rationalize removing the tracks. It is interesting that the city has money for this and not other initiatives (such as Milfoil eradication)....but that is a topic for another time.

The WOW trail has been funded with Federal money for alternative transportation...a prerequisite is that all motorized vehicles are banned. Right now the railway along Paugus is part of the state wide snowmobile trail system. If the WOW trail is built, then snowmobiles etc...will not be permitted.

Jetskier

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by birchhaven

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

The state does not subsidize any railroad, it doesn't even subsidize the Downeaster which is a government subsidized operation. The Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad is a for profit railroad, if they don't make money, they wouldn't be in business. All the railroads that operate on state owned tracks, operate in accordance to the lease agreement with the state. If the lease agreement states the state is responsible for x amount of dollars for track maintenance, then that is what the state agreed too.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by boat_guy64

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

The New England Southern Railroad ran a load over the tracks a few weeks back. I posted a picture (another one attached) and there was a picture in the Laconia Daily Sun. First, the Hobo/Winnipesaukee Scenic railroad pay the state for use of the rail road ROW. The state is responsible for maintaining the railway. The numbers that I heard is that the revenue for the Hobo/Winnipesaukee Railroad was about $1M and they paid the state $100k.

The New England Southern Railroad is a federally licensed common carrier with rights to use the railroad.

Jetskier

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by boat_guy64

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

1. Do you know how much it cost to repair the washout? I don't but I sure would like to see the $ amount it cost the state. Was any of that money covered in federal disaster relief funds? How much did the railroad chip in? Also its been mention time and time again, there's more than just the Hobo that operates the line.

2. Said freight company New England Southern Railroad, is a common carrier railroad and guess what, so is the very tracks they operate on up to Lincoln, NH. The state may own the railroad corridor but its governed by the Surface Transportation Board (STB). They are the ones that approve and disapprove freight rights. By law the state has to award a common carrier railroad the rights to the line because it is not an abandoned corridor.

3. Are you a certified FRA track inspector? Lets leave those assumptions to certified track inspectors please. FYI the track on this line is rated as class 1. see attachment for more details. http://www.jgmes.com/webstart/librar..._fra_track.htm

4. Why don't you think the two can't co-exist like it does now south of Lakeport?

[boat_guy64]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

1. Do you know how much it cost to repair the washout? I don't but I sure would like to see the $ amount it cost the state. Was any of that money covered in federal disaster relief funds? How much did the railroad chip in? Also its been mention time and time again, there's more than just the Hobo that operates the line.

2. Said freight company New England Southern Railroad, is a common carrier railroad and guess what, so is the very tracks they operate on up to Lincoln, NH. The state may own the railroad corridor but its governed by the Surface Transportation Board (STB). They are the ones that approve and disapprove freight rights. By law the state has to award a common carrier railroad the rights to the line because it is not an abandoned corridor.

3. Are you a certified FRA track inspector? Lets leave those assumptions to certified track inspectors please. FYI the track on this line is rated as class 1. see attachment for more details. http://www.jgmes.com/webstart/librar..._fra_track.htm

4. Why don't you think the two can't co-exist like it does now south of Lakeport?

1. I don't know. but I saw them work for weeks on places that didn't make the news. I saw the tracks floating 30 feet in the air in Ashland where all of the ground was washed away. I saw the culverts replaced in Meredith Bay. I wish I knew how much it cost.

2. I've never seen freight (and I have years of footage on my webcam) on this line. They may have to give someone the rights but we all know it has never been used in modern times.

3. No....just an Engineer but smart enough to know that many spikes are 75% out of the wood and would not take a heavy load. They replaced many ties in front of my house this year. They left the area a mess. Not sure why DES doesn't hold the railroad accountable for keeping our waterfront clean.

4. Look on google maps. There are many pinch points. Unless the trail reroutes through private land and only public roads, there is no path along the RR for both the train and people. It would be alot easier and provide much easier access if they just ripped out the rails like has been done in so many southern NH areas (Londonderry and Windham) and Northern areas (Colebrook and Pittsburg)

[tis]

Why do all these towns/cities spend so much money on STUDIES?? We are studied to death! Isn't there enough talent employed (by town/cities) and maybe add some citizens willing to volunteer?

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by tis

Why do all these towns/cities spend so much money on STUDIES?? We are studied to death! Isn't there enough talent employed (by town/cities) and maybe add some citizens willing to volunteer?

I would dare say that a study by towns/cities (even with citizens weighing in) would be biased. Imagine the results if some of the people commenting on this thread were involved with the study!

[tis]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

I would dare say that a study by towns/cities (even with citizens weighing in) would be biased. Imagine the results if some of the people commenting on this thread were involved with the study!

I thought of that as I was typing but do they always do what is recommended by these studies anyway? I think they do what they want regardless. I think often studies are only the result of what they are told by the people who hired them. Ever been involved in a study?

[mishman]

I appreciate that neighbors are concerned about crime. We all are worried about crime however saying they oppose the rail trail because it would be a thoroughfare for criminals to use is a bit of stretch. Do you close roadways because a burglar escapes by car?

I have been on dozens of rail trails around the country and they are avenues where people who appreciate exercise and the outdoors go to recreate safely. There is even a rail trail on the Kennebec River near Augusta Maine that shares a corridor with an active railroad and they co exist just fine. Literally hundreds of people a day use the trail (and probably pushes to a thousand or more in the summer). Businesses have been established along the trail to cater to trail users. Publicity by inns, restaurants and bars all cite their proximity to the trail.

Give the trail a chance. It will turn out to be a huge asset to the area.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by mishman

I appreciate that neighbors are concerned about crime. We all are worried about crime however saying they oppose the rail trail because it would be a thoroughfare for criminals to use is a bit of stretch. Do you close roadways because a burglar escapes by car?

I have been on dozens of rail trails around the country and they are avenues where people who appreciate exercise and the outdoors go to recreate safely. There is even a rail trail on the Kennebec River near Augusta Maine that shares a corridor with an active railroad and they co exist just fine. Literally hundreds of people a day use the trail (and probably pushes to a thousand or more in the summer). Businesses have been established along the trail to cater to trail users. Publicity by inns, restaurants and bars all cite their proximity to the trail.

Give the trail a chance. It will turn out to be a huge asset to the area.

Take a look at the crime heat map

https://www.trulia.com/real_estate/L...mpshire/crime/

Also there have been a significant number of crimes, homeless encampments etc...along the existing trail. It is a legitimate concern.

Jetskier

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by winnipiseogee

Joey - Everything else you mention seems to make sense but I've got to ask - and I'm doing so in good faith but relative ignorance - why is it so important for the railroad to remain?

I've lived in the lakes region full time for about 15 years. For a long time I owned a house on Meredith bay opposite the rail road tracks. I own a business that abutts the tracks. After selling my house on the bay I kept my boat at Meredith Marina. In all that time I've only seen the train running maybe half a dozen times at most.

I just googled their website and I'm amazed that it shows that many scheduled runs. I guess it must be used a lot but I never see it.

Because the rail corridor is under common carrier status and subject to the Surface Transportation Board (STB) jurisdiction. A petition for abandonment would have to be filed with them and approved by them, be for any rail can be pulled up. That's kind of hard to do when you have two operating railroads on the line.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

Because the rail corridor is under common carrier status and subject to the Surface Transportation Board (STB) jurisdiction. A petition for abandonment would have to be filed with them and approved by them, be for any rail can be pulled up. That's kind of hard to do when you have two operating railroads on the line.

My understanding is that abandonment requires federal approval in addition to state approval. Typically, abandonment is requested by the company that owns the RR ROW. Since there was a taking, this situation is rather unique. Anyhow, the standard in New Hampshire is that the rail line needs to be unused for a minimum of 2 years.

Jetskier

[Trail Goer]

Yes, the state would be the one to file the petition but they can't until after all operating railroads file a discontinuance with the STB. Since both the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad and New England Southern Railroad make their living using those tracks, it's unlikely they would ever do so. Just the Winnipesaukee Scenic railroad alone averages about a million a year in revenue for the parent company Plymouth and Lincoln. You think the Clark family who, owns the railroad is about to give that up? I think not.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jetskier

My understanding is that abandonment requires federal approval in addition to state approval. Typically, abandonment is requested by the company that owns the RR ROW. Since there was a taking, this situation is rather unique. Anyhow, the standard in New Hampshire is that the rail line needs to be unused for a minimum of 2 years.



Jetskier

We can always count on you for providing excellent facts.


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[joey2665]

I know it means not getting the federal funding but if part of the trail can be along the lake where are you could be cost-effective and the other part one along route 106 to avoid the bridge near pickerel pond and other hazards areas such as the tunnel I think I would be a great compromise. Maybe re-connect to the lake just passed Aquamarina up into Meredith


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[jetskier]

Hi Joey2665,

Federal funding is not contingent upon building along or over the railway. Money that is allocated by the Fed to New Hampshire for alternative transportation is disbursed by DOT to projects as they see fit. I would be surprised if DOT were to allocate money to the WOW trail based upon replacing the rail line.

Just saying.

Jetskier

[Woodsy]

NH DOT can allocate the money without the need for replacing the existing railroad... Replacing the existing railroad just makes the construction costs way cheaper.

I do not see the STB, the NH DOT or the Railroad companies allowing the track to be torn up...

The WOW folks need to coexist...

Woodsy

[Trail Goer]

Getting back to beating on a dead horse here!
For those in favor of the trail and who have zero regard for the railroad, this is what must be done for the rails to pulled up (see link). The railroad line up in Littleton, NH hasn't seen a train on those tracks since 1998 and it took the New Hampshire Central Railroad, up until about 2 years ago, to file a discontinuance with the STB, to remove themselves of common carrier obligations and remove themselves of a lease agreement with the state, before the state could even petition for abandonment. It's going to be an awfully tall order (if not impossible) to get the tracks shut down to build phase 3 in place of the tracks. Alta's study was supposed to wrap up at the end of April, I'm eagerly waiting to see the results of their winter long study. I imagine it will be any day now when the study is submitted to the city of Laconia.
https://www.stb.gov/decisions/readin...f?OpenDocument

[fatlazyless]

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

Railroad coaches can be moved via the road, however the logistics and expense of doing so are much more cumbersome.

It is costly and far more labor intensive.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

There's only one railroad connection to the shops in Lincoln, the other connection that came down from Woodsville, NH via Plymouth, NH has been gone for decades. I work in the transportation industry and I can tell you shipping railroad cars over the road would be cost prohibitive for them, it would make their rates non competitive. Moving railroad equipment requires ODL permits and possibly require escorts depending on what it is they are hauling, there's also road restrictions as most roads can't handle the length and size and most bridges and culverts, can't handle the weight.

[Barney Bear]

I believe that the subway cars from Bombardier in Canada, are partially assembled in the USA to satisfy the Buy America requirement for a Federal subsidy, and then delivered to Boston by rail. 🐻

[map]

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by map

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

Why must the rif raf as you call them be restricted to downtown the whole city should be able to enjoy their presence and the value each brings to the community! Just as the city council intended


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[map]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Why must the rif raf as you call them be restricted to downtown the whole city should be able to enjoy their presence and the value each brings to the community! Just as the city council intended


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Ha ha ha ha ha!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by map

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

The rif raf do not need the trail they already walk down the tracks.


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[map]

Originally Posted by joey2665

The rif raf do not need the trail they already walk down the tracks.


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Good point. I didn’t think of that.

[Mr. V]

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

[map]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Ummm- no. We are talking about drug dealers and addicts and criminals. Not simply people of lesser means. You can "include" all those criminals at your place. I don't want them at mine.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Local or not doesn’t matter we are talking about criminals and addicts not just the poor homeless or unemployed.

Maybe if 3 of these rif raf walked off the railroad tracks broke in stole and damaged your home like they did to me you might think differently.


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[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Local or not doesn’t matter we are talking about criminals and addicts not just the poor homeless or unemployed. Maybe if 3 of these rif raf walked off the railroad tracks broke in stole and damaged your home like they did to me you might think differently. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd certainly want to prosecute and punish anyone, from any background, who burglarized my home: that is inexcusable behavior by anyone, whoever they are.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is how you and others here are singling out, judging, and condemning a class of your fellow Americans based upon fear and quasi-hysteria, ala Fox News.

Sure, many addicts are criminals, but not all are; just as many non-addicts, folks from privileged backgrounds, turn to crime.

Criminal behavior cuts across all socio-economic lines: always has, always will.

No,the WOW trail isn't the real problem: our society and its failure to engage all of its members is the problem.

You want to end homelessness, end addiction?

Give people meaning and something to live for.

Easy to say, hard to do, but that is what it would take.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Exactly how does inclusion work? I love it when liberals cite or refer to Jesus, all while trying to completely remove religion from society to create the perfect secular state. Plus your quote is completely misguided. There is a huge difference between being poor and being a drug dealer and a drug user. My grandparents were poor, but they lived with dignity and grace.


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[trfour]

Local businesses, Patrick's for one, and all!!

[Major]

Originally Posted by trfour

Local businesses, Patrick's for one, and all!!

Not a big fan of Patrick’s or the WOW trail!


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[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Major

I love it when liberals cite or refer to Jesus, all while trying to completely remove religion from society to create the perfect secular state.

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

Oops, meant "I am NOT liberall..."

[Major]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

Why am I not surprised. (By the way how am I wrong in calling you a liberal when you say “I’m liberal!”)


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[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


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[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


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Certainly agree with you here. Distraction by argument (or meaningless babbling), that is the liberal way.

[Outdoorsman]

There is NO length the "self entitled" ppl at SD/LB will go to just to get their way.

“As some of you may know, I’ve taken a no-sanctuary-city pledge,” Spanos said at the public library forum sponsored by the Long Bay and South Down homeowners associations.

WOW Trail

The candidates took several questions about a proposal to extend the WOW Trail from Lakeport to The Weirs. The extension would be in a railroad corridor that skirts Paugus Bay on one side and the gated communities of Long Bay and South Down on the other.

Some residents have said it could pose safety concerns when they move their boats down to the water. Some fear privacy invasion and crime.

Hosmer said he supports extending the trail if a compromise could be found that would deal with the concerns of all involved.

“The last place anybody wants to end up is in court,” he said. “I would seek, if I were the mayor, to play an active role as facilitator because mediation is less expensive than litigation.”

Spanos also said he would make it a priority to bring the homeowners and trail proponents together.

“I think the WOW Trail is a great idea, and I’d certainly like to see it extended to The Weirs,” he said. “It makes sense for the tourism industry up here, but not over any neighbor’s objections.”

NO PAC monies involved here.....

[Dhamma]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


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Atheist dont believe in God but most agree that there was a rabbi called Yeshua, A/K/A Jesus. Theres enough talk about him to think that he existed.
On the other hand, there is no proof of a God who wants or needs to be worshiped.

Just saying

The only part of the WOW trail I've been on was behind Autoswerve. Whenever I had my free oil change I would walk down back to the WoW trail. gotta say, there were some iffy characters hanging out down there every now and then.
Didn't look like walkers, didn't look like runners, didn't look like bike riders.

[8gv]

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

LOLOL...

Now that I laughed, it's normal for him to throw some disconnected distraction in.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

Question: Does a 9-mile long x 12'-wide wow trail, running from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith in place of the existing single 8'6" wide railroad ties and tracks need to be a paved asphalt surface, or could it be a more natural sand and small pea stone gravel surface?

That is a very good question, and thank you very much for asking. I do not know but think the more natural sand and small pea stone gravel would be a better, more natural fit and look for replacing the existing railroad, single track.

What the 12-mile long www.cottonvalleyrailtrail.org in Wolfeboro and towns to the east has is a sand and small pea stone gravel surface, as opposed to black asphalt. So, apparently the sand and small pea stone is probably doable? It sure looks a lot better than the black asphalt that's the same as a roadway.

[8gv]

Thank you!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by map

Good point. I didn’t think of that.

I had a home in Long Bay for 12 years and it was broken into by such rif raf that entered the community from the tracks. Not only did they steal the tv and computer they are all the food in the fridge.

This is why in many WOW Trail discussions I always disagreed with the argument that the trail would provide easier access. They already have easy access.

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I had a home in Long Bay for 12 years and it was broken into by such rif raf that entered the community from the tracks. Not only did they steal the tv and computer they are all the food in the fridge.

This is why in many WOW Trail discussions I always disagreed with the argument that the trail would provide easier access. They already have easy access.

But you have to admit a paved trail will make it somewhat easier, right? The tracks are kind of a pain to walk on. Plus, they’re nearly impossible to bike on.


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[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

But you have to admit a paved trail will make it somewhat easier, right? The tracks are kind of a pain to walk on. Plus, they’re nearly impossible to bike on.


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My experience with these people is if there is a will there is a way. Paved or not.


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[fatlazyless]

90-inches ....... width of Ford police suv including outside mirrors


54.5-inches ....... width across railroad rails


144-inches or 12-feet ...... width of highway lane on Route 93

...............

So the wow trail could be a 10' (120") or 12' (144") wide road in order to fit the police cars, and fire trucks which are wider at 104" plus mirrors. Fire trucks are close to 10' wide with their mirrors.
...............

There's simply no way the wow trail can get built without removing the railroad tracks, so the wow trail is a dead issue. It's pretty simple, there's not enough width, there, with the railroad tracks remaining in place.

If people want to tour the shoreline, they should get a jetski, and do it at 45-mph with no worry about hitting a homeless person who is trespass walking down the railroad tracks.
..............

How's this sound for a battle cry coming from the neighbors with homes close to Paugus Bay and the railroad embankment: 54.5" or fight! ..... (say it loud!) ...... a reference to the rails which are 54.5" across ...... much better living with the 54.5" rails .... than living with a 120" wide, rail trail ..... 54.5" or fight! ....... hooo-yuuh! ....

Sort of sounds like ..... the 54 40 battle cry for the 1844 Oregon boundary dispute .... or something!

And, wood railroad ties are usually about 8'6" long x 9" wide x 7" high, so removing the rail road tracks and rail road ties would free up 8'6" of nice flat compacted surface area and go a long way to facilitate a ten foot wide rail trail. Today, everything moves on inflated rubber tires as opposed to steel train wheels. Steel train wheels started going out of use in the Unites States, a hundred years ago, and got replaced by cars and trucks with rubber inflated tires.

Lose those ugly train tracks, and build a rail trail for walking, running, pedaling, and using those four legged, ambulatory care walkers with the tennis balls for feet.

If a new rail trail were constructed to be same width as a highway lane, 12', then it certainly seems that a guided tour, trolley tour bus vehicle could be used to function similar to the Winni Railroad and replace the large railroad cars with a Winni trolley bus tour that seats about 25-people per bus and driven/informed by the driver similar to the duck tour boats. Or, possibly going with duck tour boats as well ..... a 12' wide rail trail really opens the Winni waterfront to a lot of new uses.

[8gv]

Regarding the access of evil doers via tracks vs via WOW Trail:

Either route is easy but if one's presence on the tracks were to be questioned any answer would still be illegal with the exception of the designated crossings.

One's presence on the WOW Trail could easily be explained away by "we are taking a walk".

I either case carrying a TV down the ROW might arouse some extra suspicion.

[fatlazyless]

So, if the 8'6" railroad ties and steel railroad rails spaced 54.5" wide were removed, and replaced with a 12' wide, beige colored, sand and small pea stone gravel roadway, it could be a multi use trail used by walkers, runners, and bicycle riders.

12' is the same width as a highway lane on Route 93, and a 12' wide WOW Trail could get used by walkers, runners, bicyclers, as well as a tour bus trolley, guided talking tour where the driver talks and drives at the same time. 12' width could be used by both pedestrians and slow moving, 10-mph tour trolley buses that are 8' wide and hold 25-passengers. Maybe a duck amphibious vehicle, traveling by road and returning by water, similar to the Boston duck tours is possible.

As a 12' roadway it could get snow removed/plowed in the winter so the walking and bicycling could continue during the winter months.

Walking and pedaling a bicycle would make the Paugus Bay embankment available for use to the public, and could bring people as visiting tourists to Laconia to use it.

Just imagine a 9-mile WOW Trail like this that runs from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith, where it is now a state owned railroad embankment, along Lake Winnipesaukee, with a single railroad track, originally built in 1885. Is better to remove the railroad tracks and ties, and build a multi use road/trail.

[joey2665]

I said it before and will day it again. They will never dismantle the railroad and the only way for the WOW Trail to proceed with the next phase is for the trail and rail co coexist.


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[joey2665]

Article in Concord Monitor

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Basch...iders-25343268


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[Trail Goer]

There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/

Thank you for the update. Looks like it is going to get very interesting

[thinkxingu]

My daughter and I rode the Nashua rail trail last week. Five miles out, ice cream and a rest on the green, five miles back. Awesome exercise, awesome time with my daughter. Sure wish we had one closer than 20 minutes away.

Happy Saturday, all!

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[joey2665]

Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


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Just thinking that it would be cool to see the train come through!

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[TiltonBB]

From the Laconia Sun:

Alta Planning calculated a net total benefit of a completed trail over a 20-year period of between $67 million and $89 million.


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...nt=read%20more

[Major]

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.

I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.


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[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.

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I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.

Laconia can be a destination city but let's leave that as there is a lot involved and to debate about.

I do agree that the WOW trail would not help restaurants in the downtown area. The main users of the trail are people exercising and I do not see bikers joggers and the like stopping in the middle of their workout to eat. Kind of defeats the purpose.

However I should state that and as I have said multiple times, I am in favor of the WOW Trail under certain circumstances such as it coexisting with the Scenic Railroad, SD/LB, aesthetically pleasing fencing along the way and without a doubt it must be completed with PRIVATE money via donations, advertising, fundraising and the like NOT public money.

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.[/url]

Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!

Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

ding ding ding There are more upgrades to come also.

[baygo]

Originally Posted by Major

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

New owners? That narrows it down to two places. I haven’t noticed any improvements at the Laconia Local Eatery, so that leaves a place that’s been around over 30 years.