Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Winnipesaukee Forums > Boating
Home Forums Gallery YouTube Channel Classifieds Links Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2018, 04:06 PM   #1
BroadHopper
Senior Member
 
BroadHopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Laconia NH / Bozeman MO
Posts: 4,695
Thanks: 2,211
Thanked 812 Times in 566 Posts
Default Adjusting the No Wake Zone law

Basically removing the 6 mph minimum clause.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...d14a71b81.html
__________________
Someday may never be an actual day.
BroadHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 04:32 PM   #2
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

Broad hopper, because I know a lot of people won't bother to open the link, I thought I would copy the article. Thanks for posting the link.



Quote:
LACONIA — State Rep. Charlie St. Clair has started the process to draft a bill that would change a boating law restricting the speed of travel in no-wake zones.

Current law requires boats to slow down to “headway speed” in these zones. Headway speed is defined as 6 mph or the slowest speed to travel and maintain an ability to steer the boat.

St. Clair, R-Laconia, said a Gilford resident who lives on Governors Island urged that the reference to 6 mph be removed from the law. The resident said boat wakes can cause erosion, and many boats can maintain steerage at less than 6 mph.


Capt. Tim Dunleavy of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol said he has no objection to the proposed change and agreed that a speed of 6 mph is not usually needed to maintain steerage.

“There is room to clean up that definition,” he said.

He said the reference to 6 mph in the law came from the conditions in the Piscataqua River in Portsmouth, where such speed is needed because of strong current caused by tidal action.

Dunleavy said some homeowners along lakes assert that wakes erode land.

“People get impatient and travel too fast in no-wake zones,” he said. “I’m not sure if it rises to the level of causing erosions. There are places in no-wake zones where Mother Nature throws significantly more wave action than boat traffic.”

St. Clair filed a legislative service request for the bill. Such a request is the beginning of the drafting process to create a bill.
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tis For This Useful Post:
steve c (12-05-2018)
Old 12-04-2018, 04:55 PM   #3
joey2665
Senior Member
 
joey2665's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Meredith Bay & LI, NY
Posts: 1,490
Thanks: 281
Thanked 336 Times in 220 Posts
Default

I think the clarification will help. Although experienced boaters understand the law others read into it too much and just use 6 mph which can cause a wake especially on larger boats


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
joey2665 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to joey2665 For This Useful Post:
FlyingScot (12-04-2018)
Old 12-04-2018, 05:08 PM   #4
The Real BigGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 337
Thanks: 9
Thanked 113 Times in 67 Posts
Default

No,no, not this (topic) again! AHAAAAAA


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
The Real BigGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 05:23 PM   #5
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,743
Thanks: 435
Thanked 493 Times in 277 Posts
Default

Pretty soon you're going to need to pack an overnight bag if you plan to travel more than a couple of miles on the lake.
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-04-2018, 06:36 PM   #6
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

I agree with you and what you said, Joey. The clarification is needed. Proof of that is BigGuy's comment: " no, not this again!" We have gone over and over it and there is no agreement. There are those that still think the law means you can always go 6 MPH in a NWZ.
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 08:58 AM   #7
AC2717
Senior Member
 
AC2717's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay
Posts: 2,075
Thanks: 542
Thanked 241 Times in 173 Posts
Default

Are marine patrol going to have to spend time in NWZ with a radar gun?? Seriously this rep out of Laconia according to the story, should focus on improving his town and the economic down turn they are experiencing when a majority are experiencing growth, instead of what a resident from Gilford sees from his/her Gov. Island Ivory tower. Sad thing is this clown represents me and I cannot even vote against him because I cannot vote in Laconia. We have a department for this it's called DES. This is a "do nothing" bill proposal that is wasting time
__________________
Capt. of the "No Worries"

Last edited by AC2717; 12-05-2018 at 09:58 AM.
AC2717 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AC2717 For This Useful Post:
Reilly (12-06-2018)
Old 12-05-2018, 09:43 AM   #8
TiltonBB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 183
Thanked 661 Times in 263 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2717 View Post
Are marine patrol going to have to spend time in NWZ with a radar gun?? Seriously this rep, that lives in Gilford and is a rep out of Laconia according to the story, should focus on improving his towns and the economic down turn they are experiencing when a majority are experiencing growth, instead of what he sees from his Gov. Island Ivory tower. Sad thing is this clown represents me and I cannot even vote against him because I cannot vote in Laconia. We have a department for this it's called DES. This is a "do nothing" bill proposal that is wasting time
For those that are unaware Charlie St.Clair the State Representative referred to is the head of Laconia Motorcycle Week. He also owns the Laconia Antique Center in downtown Laconia.

Also, not all of the houses on Governors Island are waterfront high value homes. There are numerous inland homes that have a much lower value.

But, most importantly, the article did not say he lives on Governors Island and he does not. He lives in Laconia.
TiltonBB is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to TiltonBB For This Useful Post:
AC2717 (12-05-2018)
Old 12-05-2018, 09:44 AM   #9
Lakewinn1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 93
Thanks: 78
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
Pretty soon you're going to need to pack an overnight bag if you plan to travel more than a couple of miles on the lake.
Couldn't agree with you more!
Lakewinn1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 09:56 AM   #10
AC2717
Senior Member
 
AC2717's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay
Posts: 2,075
Thanks: 542
Thanked 241 Times in 173 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiltonBB View Post
For those that are unaware Charlie St.Clair the State Representative referred to is the head of Laconia Motorcycle Week. He also owns the Laconia Antique Center in downtown Laconia.

Also, not all of the houses on Governors Island are waterfront high value homes. There are numerous inland homes that have a much lower value.

But, most importantly, the article did not say he lives on Governors Island and he does not. He lives in Laconia.
I stand corrected and misread, thank you for the clarification, I will edit my post to be correct, but will stand by my opinions of it the proposal
__________________
Capt. of the "No Worries"
AC2717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 12:06 PM   #11
Winni P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: S. Shore, MA/Saunders Bay
Posts: 78
Thanks: 119
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2717 View Post
Are marine patrol going to have to spend time in NWZ with a radar gun?? Seriously this rep out of Laconia according to the story, should focus on improving his town and the economic down turn they are experiencing when a majority are experiencing growth, instead of what a resident from Gilford sees from his/her Gov. Island Ivory tower. Sad thing is this clown represents me and I cannot even vote against him because I cannot vote in Laconia. We have a department for this it's called DES. This is a "do nothing" bill proposal that is wasting time
Correct me if I'm wrong. If they remove the 6mph wording, they won't need a radar gun, they would just look at the size of your wake, right?
Winni P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 12:09 PM   #12
AC2717
Senior Member
 
AC2717's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay
Posts: 2,075
Thanks: 542
Thanked 241 Times in 173 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winni P View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong. If they remove the 6mph wording, they won't need a radar gun, they would just look at the size of your wake, right?
was being sarcastic
__________________
Capt. of the "No Worries"
AC2717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 01:23 PM   #13
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 211
Thanks: 21
Thanked 52 Times in 35 Posts
Default

Just so I get this right... it's NOT the landowners that removed the vegetation and changed the shoreline that's responsible for the erosion... it's the boaters? Makes perfect sense to me! The real problem is that you can't fix stupid.
swnoel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 01:31 PM   #14
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

This is NOT adding a law, it is not changing anything. It is trying to clarify that you can't just go 6 MPH as many of you argue, but that NO WAKE means just that.
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 01:36 PM   #15
Bear Islander
Senior Member
 
Bear Islander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bear Island
Posts: 1,661
Thanks: 21
Thanked 348 Times in 163 Posts
Default

So the purpose of this bill is to get people to go SLOWER than 6mph in no wake zones? Seriously?

I live on the Bear Island NWZ and would love it if people went through under 12mph. In the summer about one boat every hour, on average, goes through at FULL SPEED!

I think about half of them don't know they are in a NWZ and the other half don't care. Plus most boater have an exaggerated idea of what 6mph is.

If Capt. Dunleavy wants to actually do something constructive about NWZ violations he should send a patrol boat out to Bear and have them hide around the corner. Usually the patrol boats sit out in plain sight. This causes people to act like good citizens... until the patrol boat leaves.
Bear Islander is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bear Islander For This Useful Post:
AC2717 (12-05-2018), Pineedles (12-24-2018)
Old 12-05-2018, 01:48 PM   #16
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

The purpose is to make people understand that NO Wake is just that, BI. To make people understand that it's not Headway Speed, not 6 MPH, it's NO WAKE. You are right though. It needs to be enforced if anything is going to change no matter how they write the law.
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 02:30 PM   #17
Bear Islander
Senior Member
 
Bear Islander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bear Island
Posts: 1,661
Thanks: 21
Thanked 348 Times in 163 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tis View Post
The purpose is to make people understand that NO Wake is just that, BI. To make people understand that it's not Headway Speed, not 6 MPH, it's NO WAKE. You are right though. It needs to be enforced if anything is going to change no matter how they write the law.
What does No Wake actually mean. Every boat, including canoes and kayaks, produces a wake. At 1mph you have a small wake. Yes the wake becomes larger as speed increases. But at no point in increased speed does a wake suddenly appear when there was no wake before.

I have had people tell me they take their PWC through the NWZ at full speed because they don't produce and appreciable wake at high speeds. Which is true. However they are clearly violating the 6mph rule.

Hydrofoils produce very little wake. Will they be able to go through NWZs at high speed under the new rule? How about ground effect boats that actually fly a couple of feet above the water and never touch the water when at speed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiLxXWgwj0M

Anyway in most instances NWZs are not about wake, they are about safe speed in a congested area. I took part in advocating for the BI NWZ, and I don't think the word erosion was ever used by us. It was about safety.
Bear Islander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 02:39 PM   #18
Bizer
Senior Member
 
Bizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 308
Thanks: 0
Thanked 220 Times in 69 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
So the purpose of this bill is to get people to go SLOWER than 6mph in no wake zones? Seriously? ...
That is the precise purpose of this law. The bill is being pushed by a Governors Island resident who wants exactly that. This has NIMBY written all over it.

Consider the following. A boat in Paugus Bay wants to get through the Weirs Channel. Normal current in the Weirs Channel is about 1.5 MPH, but if the Lakeport Dam is letting out lots of water the current can get upwards of 4 MPH. If, for example, the current in the Weirs Channel is 2.5 MPH, and the boat can maintain steerage way at 3 MPH, then it will take the boater one hour to get through the half-mile NO-WAKE zone. What happens if the boat behind him needs 4 MPH to maintain steerage way and there is no room for passing?

Last September, I was made aware of this bill. When Bizer did its annual survey in September, I was piloting a boat that could maintain steerageway at about 2 MPH. According to the GPS, I was going 5.1 MPH when this photo of my wake was taken. Those are ripples, not a wake.
Attached Images
 
Bizer is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bizer For This Useful Post:
AC2717 (12-05-2018)
Old 12-05-2018, 03:12 PM   #19
The Real BigGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 337
Thanks: 9
Thanked 113 Times in 67 Posts
Default

Geez, I can’t believe this


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
The Real BigGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 03:16 PM   #20
The Real BigGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 337
Thanks: 9
Thanked 113 Times in 67 Posts
Default

I mean the twisting and turning people will go thru to try and justify something. They are finally getting things right. If you see white behind you you are making a wake. Get over it!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
The Real BigGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to The Real BigGuy For This Useful Post:
tis (12-05-2018)
Old 12-05-2018, 05:59 PM   #21
Billy Bob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tiera Verdi Fl & Moultonborough
Posts: 209
Thanks: 87
Thanked 94 Times in 58 Posts
Default

The State of NewHampshire has more laws and restrictions on boating then any other state in the country. In Florida we have substantially more boats per cap.
And basically stick with the Coast Guard guidelines . The lake is used heavy about 8 week ends a year but we have restrictions that imply full usage 365 days a year. Lighten up with this crap
Billy Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Billy Bob For This Useful Post:
Cal Coon (12-05-2018), christo1 (12-27-2018), Descant (12-06-2018), pm203 (12-09-2018), Reilly (12-06-2018)
Old 12-05-2018, 06:26 PM   #22
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,872
Thanks: 174
Thanked 1,210 Times in 461 Posts
Default

There are those that really believe it is possible to legislate the stupidity out of people.

My opinion of this language change is that to me it creates more ambiguity in the sense that it doesn't specify a maximum speed. At least with 6 MPH it indicated a bit of a measuring stick - not that it was perfect but its something. If a captain doesn't get 6 MPH what makes you think they will understand "the minimum speed necessary to maintain safe steerage".
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 06:28 PM   #23
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

Maxum, all you need to do to see if you are making a wake is look behind you. How easy is that?
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 06:45 PM   #24
Cal Coon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lakes Region
Posts: 152
Thanks: 60
Thanked 42 Times in 29 Posts
Default

You can change the law all you want, but I bet any amount of money it will have NO impact on anyone's behavior towards their wake, and NOTHING will change... Complete waste of time.
Cal Coon is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Cal Coon For This Useful Post:
Lake Charm (12-29-2018)
Old 12-06-2018, 07:27 AM   #25
MDoug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 244
Thanks: 86
Thanked 27 Times in 25 Posts
Default Wake Watchers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Coon View Post
You can change the law all you want, but I bet any amount of money it will have NO impact on anyone's behavior towards their wake, and NOTHING will change... Complete waste of time.
The lady on the point at Y Landing has scared many of us into dead slow by yelling and flailing her arms, tho
MDoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 10:40 AM   #26
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 1,301
Thanks: 388
Thanked 363 Times in 225 Posts
Default

I agree that NH should have boating laws that are similar to other states. However, as long as we have the 150 foot safe passage law, NWZ in places like Bear Island and Eagle Island should be unnecessary.
Descant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 11:17 AM   #27
Bear Islander
Senior Member
 
Bear Islander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bear Island
Posts: 1,661
Thanks: 21
Thanked 348 Times in 163 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
I agree that NH should have boating laws that are similar to other states. However, as long as we have the 150 foot safe passage law, NWZ in places like Bear Island and Eagle Island should be unnecessary.
Sorry, but that idea is just nuts.

Before the BI NWZ was created we would sit on the porch and watch the near misses. The area between Bear and Pine was the definition of an accident waiting to happen. The combination of high speed, high volume and going around a blind corner was treacherous. There were collisions, I don't remember the numbers.
Bear Islander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 11:45 AM   #28
joey2665
Senior Member
 
joey2665's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Meredith Bay & LI, NY
Posts: 1,490
Thanks: 281
Thanked 336 Times in 220 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
I agree that NH should have boating laws that are similar to other states. However, as long as we have the 150 foot safe passage law, NWZ in places like Bear Island and Eagle Island should be unnecessary.
Completely disagree. Many boaters can't even measure the 150ft in their head, never mind obeying the law itself (If they even know the law exists). The NWZ is absolutely needed especially in those two particular areas.
joey2665 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 05:25 PM   #29
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,872
Thanks: 174
Thanked 1,210 Times in 461 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tis View Post
Maxum, all you need to do to see if you are making a wake is look behind you. How easy is that?
For starters it's pretty much impossible to move a boat without causing some sort of wake. So the term "no wake" is just stupid and really shouldn't be used.

Furthermore in the absence of any specific parameters governing speed or size it's a judgment call of the captain and those vary greatly. Again good luck with that.


I get what the spirit of the law is in regards to "no wake" but when somebody comes through a NWZ plowing water and you get mad - just remember that under the current definition it's the slowest possible speed and still maintain steerage. Well this this example maybe the captain feels that going that fast is needed to comfortably meet (for him or her) that requirement. Are they breaking the law? After all when you've got some decent forward momentum it's far easier to maintain a straight course of travel than if you're barely moving and trying to do the same thing.
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 06:34 PM   #30
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

I disagree with you. I have watched plenty of boats causing no visible wake. I think if Marine Patrol had a bigger presence in NW Zones, almost ALL boats could manage to somehow maintain steerage without making a wake Funny that.
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 06:46 PM   #31
The Real BigGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 337
Thanks: 9
Thanked 113 Times in 67 Posts
Default

Well, as I said, here we go again


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
The Real BigGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 07:47 PM   #32
Cal Coon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lakes Region
Posts: 152
Thanks: 60
Thanked 42 Times in 29 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDoug View Post
The lady on the point at Y Landing has scared many of us into dead slow by yelling and flailing her arms, tho
I have read about this crazy lady a few times on here now, so I'm looking forward to taking a ride by next summer to see if I can attract her attention just for the entertainment value..!!
Cal Coon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 08:59 PM   #33
Lakegeezer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moultonboro, NH
Posts: 1,473
Thanks: 278
Thanked 456 Times in 200 Posts
Default Low Wake anyone?

We could use a low wake zone to go with the no wake zone. The no wake signs seem silly in some spots, but spot on in others. A no wake should mean it, but allowing up to 6mph in a low wake zone would get better compliance than expecting everyone to crawl along.
__________________
-lg
Lakegeezer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 10:56 PM   #34
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 394
Thanks: 157
Thanked 81 Times in 54 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swnoel View Post
Just so I get this right... it's NOT the landowners that removed the vegetation and changed the shoreline that's responsible for the erosion... it's the boaters? Makes perfect sense to me! The real problem is that you can't fix stupid.
Actually, these are two separate problems. Both cause erosion, independently of each other. And of course when combined, it's even worse.
FlyingScot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 01:17 AM   #35
Bear Islander
Senior Member
 
Bear Islander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bear Island
Posts: 1,661
Thanks: 21
Thanked 348 Times in 163 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDoug View Post
The lady on the point at Y Landing has scared many of us into dead slow by yelling and flailing her arms, tho
I have gone to the Y-Landing just about every day during the summer, for many many years, to get the newspaper. I have never had this lady yell at me or wave her arms. Never!

Perhaps you are passing by her property at too great a speed. I recommend slowing down before you get to her area and see what she does.
Bear Islander is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bear Islander For This Useful Post:
Descant (12-07-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 05:46 AM   #36
bilproject
Senior Member
 
bilproject's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bear Island/Fort Myers, Fla
Posts: 176
Thanks: 1
Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Default No wake Zones are about Safety

No wake zones are about safety not erosion within the no wake zone. My observations are that no wake zones actually increase erosion in the shoreline adjacent to the areas just outside the no wake zone. Boats on plane generate a wake of X. Boats coming off or to plane create a wake of 4X. If it were about erosion we should have no areas where we cause 100 % of the boats traveling an area come off plane and return to cruising speed. Over the years boats on the lake have become progressively larger and faster. This makes tight areas smaller and more dangerous requiring the captain to be precise in navigating tight areas to maintain 150 feet. Mix that with a large variation of the captain's skill level and knowledge of the lake and you have a situation ripe for an accident. While no fan of no-wake zones they reflect the reality of what is required to keep us all safe.
bilproject is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 06:24 AM   #37
MDoug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 244
Thanks: 86
Thanked 27 Times in 25 Posts
Default Wake Watcher

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
I have gone to the Y-Landing just about every day during the summer, for many many years, to get the newspaper. I have never had this lady yell at me or wave her arms. Never!

Perhaps you are passing by her property at too great a speed. I recommend slowing down before you get to her area and see what she does.
Shes been yelling at just about everybody for at least twenty years now. Maybe she has a crush on you
MDoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 06:29 AM   #38
Seaplane Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 827
Thanks: 283
Thanked 417 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilproject View Post
No wake zones are about safety not erosion within the no wake zone. My observations are that no wake zones actually increase erosion in the shoreline adjacent to the areas just outside the no wake zone. Boats on plane generate a wake of X. Boats coming off or to plane create a wake of 4X. If it were about erosion we should have no areas where we cause 100 % of the boats traveling an area come off plane and return to cruising speed. Over the years boats on the lake have become progressively larger and faster. This makes tight areas smaller and more dangerous requiring the captain to be precise in navigating tight areas to maintain 150 feet. Mix that with a large variation of the captain's skill level and knowledge of the lake and you have a situation ripe for an accident. While no fan of no-wake zones they reflect the reality of what is required to keep us all safe.
I’m sure “SAFETY” was the primary reason for making that ridiculously huge no-wake zone in Meredith Bay.
Seaplane Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 08:44 AM   #39
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Unhappy Lakes Region—Meet City-Speeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilproject View Post
No wake zones are about safety not erosion within the no wake zone. My observations are that no wake zones actually increase erosion in the shoreline adjacent to the areas just outside the no wake zone. Boats on plane generate a wake of X. Boats coming off or to plane create a wake of 4X. If it were about erosion we should have no areas where we cause 100 % of the boats traveling an area come off plane and return to cruising speed.
Over the years boats on the lake have become progressively larger and faster. This makes tight areas smaller and more dangerous requiring the captain to be precise in navigating tight areas to maintain 150 feet. Mix that with a large variation of the captain's skill level and knowledge of the lake and you have a situation ripe for an accident. While no fan of no-wake zones they reflect the reality of what is required to keep us all safe.
Said another way, would "oversized" be a better description? Also increasing are exhaust fumes and noise—taking-in exhaust pipe noise and over-amplified stereo systems.

Using a 28-footer for waterskiing or tubing in a harbor long-protected by Mother Nature will erode the shoreline. Too often, relaxing on my dock, I'll get wet—can't hear my radio—or have to put a caller on hold.

At one time, we had no boatlifts, seawalls or breakwaters in Winter Harbor. These days, they're popping up like mushrooms after an August rain.

Alas, we have no Low-Wake zones—and only one tiny No-Wake area—especially sensible so Loons still can raise their families.

If you've come to the Lakes Region to maintain your hectic "city-speed", you've come to the wrong place.
__________________
.Sailing—Good for you and good for the world...
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 08:46 AM   #40
The Real BigGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 337
Thanks: 9
Thanked 113 Times in 67 Posts
Default

Geez, the lake is beautiful! Slow down and enjoy it.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
The Real BigGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 08:49 AM   #41
Garcia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 88
Thanks: 16
Thanked 40 Times in 21 Posts
Default

Based on the comments on this thread and others, the whole idea here will not solve any real or perceived issues. Those who flagrantly disregard NWZs, either by choice or ignorance, will continue to do so as will those who parse the language looking for inconsistencies or things that are open for interpretation.

Moreover, it would be really interesting to see increased MP presence and enforcement. My guess is that should that happen, there would be lots of complaints about cost, MP being in the wrong place, unjust tickets, etc.

I'm confident I know what to do when I encounter a NWZ now and should the wording change. Most important, I get a kick out of reading different thoughts and opinions on the subject here on the forum!
Garcia is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Garcia For This Useful Post:
Shreddy (12-07-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 09:22 AM   #42
BrunoSR
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

More MP Officers? Yes, I would agree! Last year I think I saw 4 MP boats total, all season!! Except for the 4th of July. I really didn’t see any MP boats on the 4th either, however I did see a lot of blue lights!!

Of the four I did see, two were at the same time. We were coming out of the Weirs channel heading into the big lake. We passed two marine patrol boats, they were heading into the channel. The first MP boat had two MP officers on it. I waved, they both waved back. The second MP boat, the old war horse boat, had three MP officers on board. I waved, two waved back, the third told me to slow down!!! REALY!!
BrunoSR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 09:25 AM   #43
Garcia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 88
Thanks: 16
Thanked 40 Times in 21 Posts
Default

In case it wasn't clear from my post, I am all for an increased, more visible presence of the MP!
Garcia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 10:27 AM   #44
BrunoSR
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia View Post
In case it wasn't clear from my post, I am all for an increased, more visible presence of the MP!
I hope you didn't think that I thought you weren't. I was agreeing with you.

I guess I was pointing out that even the MP officers don't agree on what the proper boat speed. I was clearly going slow, I bet I wasn't doing 3 MPH against the current. I guess I can say 4 out of 5 officers agreed with me LOL!!
BrunoSR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 10:32 AM   #45
LIforrelaxin
Senior Member
 
LIforrelaxin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee
Posts: 2,125
Thanks: 753
Thanked 586 Times in 312 Posts
Default

These threads help me remember why I stepped out of fighting hard for boating rights in NH.... everyone has there own thoughts. And there are valid points to most arguments. But no one ever seems to want to discuss compromise.

Do a search on "what does no wake mean" You will find plenty of definitions most notably this one:

http://wow.uscgaux.info/Uploads_wowII/095-45-01/Slow_No_Wake.pdf


What most all the definitions have in common is that there is no mention of speed relative to no wake. This law will do what some of us have been fighting for years for, which is to bring the NH legislation in line with Federal laws, concerning boating regulations.
__________________
Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....
LIforrelaxin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LIforrelaxin For This Useful Post:
Garcia (12-07-2018), Pineedles (12-24-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 12:49 PM   #46
Little Bear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 444
Thanks: 65
Thanked 151 Times in 82 Posts
Default Cry me a river!

The article in the original post stated that some guy on Governor's Island was complaining about erosion caused by wakes of boats going 6 mph. Give me a break! As I've said in prior posts, what about those of us that are subjected to 3 foot rollers coming in from wake surf boats and cruisers? What about those people that live on Locke's Island facing mainland? This is not a no-wake zone, and these people are subjected to huge amounts of traffic and substantial wakes. Come see the damage to my shoreline that these wakes cause, then talk to me about erosion. But as I also said before, I knew what I was getting into when I bought the property, so I'm not complaining about the erosion or the traffic. What I am complaining about are the people that are crying over a ripple of water or "white foam" behind a boat that is going slower than a duck swimming.

Let's just make the entire lake a no-wake zone, then see what the next thing is that people will complain about.
Little Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Little Bear For This Useful Post:
Cal Coon (12-07-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 01:08 PM   #47
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,872
Thanks: 174
Thanked 1,210 Times in 461 Posts
Default

Even the USCG Aux states the following in their no wake definition:

It has nothing to do with you actually making a small wake or not. The speed and maintaining steerage depends on your boat and boat characteristics.

DING DING DING, exactly, although as I previously stated the ability to confidently maintain safe steerage is a direct reflection of the driver's skill and ability to handle whatever boat they are operating and the circumstance and conditions at the time. Thus the relationship between wake size and a designated NWZ that everyone seems to think should be wave free is fundamentally flawed.
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MAXUM For This Useful Post:
Little Bear (12-07-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 01:39 PM   #48
Biggd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH
Posts: 1,345
Thanks: 286
Thanked 194 Times in 140 Posts
Default

Everyone needs to just slow down. What's the rush?
Biggd is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Biggd For This Useful Post:
ApS (12-20-2018), pault842 (12-07-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 05:39 PM   #49
pault842
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 10
Thanks: 16
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Big waste of time. Does anyone think someone who speeds through a no-wake zone is going to now slow down if they make this change?
pault842 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 06:10 PM   #50
bilproject
Senior Member
 
bilproject's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bear Island/Fort Myers, Fla
Posts: 176
Thanks: 1
Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot View Post
I’m sure “SAFETY” was the primary reason for making that ridiculously huge no-wake zone in Meredith Bay.
Yes as crazy as it seems that whole no wake zone was extended due to documented injuries at Meredith Marina due to the large amount of wake in the area. All of Meredith bay is travelled pretty much in a north south direction so there is no confusion in the sea to break up wake.
bilproject is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2018, 06:54 AM   #51
Reilly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Thanks: 421
Thanked 38 Times in 24 Posts
Default Or better yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bear View Post
The article in the original post stated that some guy on Governor's Island was complaining about erosion caused by wakes of boats going 6 mph. Give me a break! As I've said in prior posts, what about those of us that are subjected to 3 foot rollers coming in from wake surf boats and cruisers? What about those people that live on Locke's Island facing mainland? This is not a no-wake zone, and these people are subjected to huge amounts of traffic and substantial wakes. Come see the damage to my shoreline that these wakes cause, then talk to me about erosion. But as I also said before, I knew what I was getting into when I bought the property, so I'm not complaining about the erosion or the traffic. What I am complaining about are the people that are crying over a ripple of water or "white foam" behind a boat that is going slower than a duck swimming.

Let's just make the entire lake a no-wake zone, then see what the next thing is that people will complain about.
Let's just say NO Power Boats
Reilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2018, 12:01 PM   #52
Taz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 186
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS
Alas, we have no Low-Wake zones—and only one tiny No-Wake area—especially sensible so Loons still can raise their families.
I always find it comical when shorefront owners complain about boats interfering with raising of Loons and interfering with their nests. You do know that Loons build their nests on the shoreline where all the "cottages", "McMansions" are built? If not for all of these there would be plenty of shoreline for Loons nests. All the shorefront owners pushed the Loons out. Not just boaters interfering with Loons.
Taz is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Taz For This Useful Post:
Ajd (12-27-2018), BroadHopper (12-19-2018)
Old 12-19-2018, 07:14 PM   #53
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Arrow Winter Harbor: No Wake for One Loon Nest...Regularly Violated...

Because their feet are far back on their bodies, Loons must wriggle on shore to build and tend to their nests.

Because Loons select low and marshy areas for their nests, Loons' favored habitat is unsuitable for building cottages and McMansions.

Even before actually raising their families, Loons are highly territorial. With that requirement of a huge "Lebensraum", Loon nests are rarely located in sight of one another. So territorial, even much larger birds are in danger of a fatal Loon attack.

One visit to Winter Harbor's single favorable marshy area would enlighten those who think boaters aren't a problem.
__________________
.Sailing—Good for you and good for the world...
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2018, 10:27 AM   #54
LIforrelaxin
Senior Member
 
LIforrelaxin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee
Posts: 2,125
Thanks: 753
Thanked 586 Times in 312 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Because their feet are far back on their bodies, Loons must wriggle on shore to build and tend to their nests.

Because Loons select low and marshy areas for their nests, Loons' favored habitat is unsuitable for building cottages and McMansions.

Even before actually raising their families, Loons are highly territorial. With that requirement of a huge "Lebensraum", Loon nests are rarely located in sight of one another. So territorial, even much larger birds are in danger of a fatal Loon attack.

One visit to Winter Harbor's single favorable marshy area would enlighten those who think boaters aren't a problem.
ApS, I am not sure what you are trying to get at with your post... Concerns over loons and defining the correct verbiage for no-wake legislation aren't really the same topic, and in fact are really quite unrelated.

Boaters are indeed a problem for loons, but changing how we define no-wake isn't going to change that.

People will always break the no-wake zone, no mater how it is defined, and yep on occasion it will happen around a loon nest, and might cause a problem.
I have also seen loon nest problems in area's where the wind causes the wave action etc.

You always seem to amaze me with how you try and argue problems. Tying unrelated issue together, to try and justify something....
__________________
Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....
LIforrelaxin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to LIforrelaxin For This Useful Post:
Skip (12-20-2018)
Old 12-20-2018, 02:53 PM   #55
Taz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 186
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Because their feet are far back on their bodies, Loons must wriggle on shore to build and tend to their nests.

Because Loons select low and marshy areas for their nests, Loons' favored habitat is unsuitable for building cottages and McMansions.

Even before actually raising their families, Loons are highly territorial. With that requirement of a huge "Lebensraum", Loon nests are rarely located in sight of one another. So territorial, even much larger birds are in danger of a fatal Loon attack.

One visit to Winter Harbor's single favorable marshy area would enlighten those who think boaters aren't a problem.
so what you are saying is, there is not enough suitable nesting sites on the many miles of shoreline on Winnipesaukee? Which means its not boats or shoreline houses preventing loon nesting, its just not naturally suitable to nest on Winnipesaukee.

Are you sure in the early days of building houses on the shoreline of Winnipesaukee people were not filling in low marshy areas to make it suitable to build?
Taz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2018, 06:38 PM   #56
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

I don't think finding a place to nest is an issue for the loons. I think the problem is when boats either make too big a wake while they are nesting, causing the nest to flood and also when the baby is small and the mother and father loon take it out into the boat traffic. I have seen them almost get run over many times.
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2018, 07:23 PM   #57
Taz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 186
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Because their feet are far back on their bodies, Loons must wriggle on shore to build and tend to their nests.

Because Loons select low and marshy areas for their nests, Loons' favored habitat is unsuitable for building cottages and McMansions.

Even before actually raising their families, Loons are highly territorial. With that requirement of a huge "Lebensraum", Loon nests are rarely located in sight of one another. So territorial, even much larger birds are in danger of a fatal Loon attack.

One visit to Winter Harbor's single favorable marshy area would enlighten those who think boaters aren't a problem.
After doing some research I found loons prefer steep drop offs close to shore so they approach their nest underwater. I also found loons use the man made nesting platforms because of extensive shoreline development. So I call foul on APS. The extensive shoreline development is to blame for the lack of nesting sites on Winni. All the houses on lake Winni shoreline drove the loons out.
Taz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2018, 04:17 AM   #58
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Arrow Supporting No-Wake Restrictions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
so what you are saying is, there is not enough suitable nesting sites on the many miles of shoreline on Winnipesaukee? Which means its not boats or shoreline houses preventing loon nesting, its just not naturally suitable to nest on Winnipesaukee.

Are you sure in the early days of building houses on the shoreline of Winnipesaukee people were not filling in low marshy areas to make it suitable to build?
• To the first comment, I've only referred to the area I know best—which is Winter Harbor.

• Of the six or seven shoreline miles of Winter Harbor, there has been only one documented Loon nest for as long as I've been here.

• As to "early days of building houses", there are now expensive houses on shoreline lots my Dad used to call "unbuildable". Also, older maps list large areas of Alton Bay as "unbuildable".

• Loon-protection has never been a consideration in shoreline development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
ApS, I am not sure what you are trying to get at with your post... Concerns over loons and defining the correct verbiage for no-wake legislation aren't really the same topic, and in fact are really quite unrelated.

Boaters are indeed a problem for loons
, but changing how we define no-wake isn't going to change that.

People will always break the no-wake zone, no matter how it is defined, and yep on occasion it will happen around a loon nest, and might cause a problem. I have also seen loon nest problems in area's where the wind causes the wave action etc.

You always seem to amaze me with how you try and argue problems. Tying unrelated issue together, to try and justify something....
• They're related: I'm answering the previous quote—one that emphasizes Winnipesaukee's Loon Population.

• Let's see...No-wake zones don't include Loons' safety—but they do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
After doing some research I found loons prefer steep drop offs close to shore so they approach their nest underwater. I also found loons use the man made nesting platforms because of extensive shoreline development. So I call foul on APS. The extensive shoreline development is to blame for the lack of nesting sites on Winni. All the houses on lake Winni shoreline drove the loons out.
• ApS is content with Loons as fowl.

• A B&W pre-war photo (taken from Tuftonboro's Camp Boycroft) of three miles of Winter Harbor's northeast shoreline showed only one human structure! Fortunately, that entire shoreline has never been suitable for Loon nests.

• Contradicting your undocumented website, the ONE nest in Winter Harbor (formerly Tuftonboro Bay) is in shallow water.

• However suitable the shoreline, nesting platforms are highly desirable, as they protect against egg-robbing raids by Racoons.

• As recently as within the past decade, we had no boatlifts, seawalls or breakwaters inside Winter Harbor's protected waters.

• Photos I've taken of Winter Harbor's northeast shoreline—only a few years apart—are unrecognizable. Rocks—and some large boulders—are falling out of the shoreline!
__________________
.Sailing—Good for you and good for the world...
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2018, 06:50 AM   #59
Biggd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH
Posts: 1,345
Thanks: 286
Thanked 194 Times in 140 Posts
Default

You people are all looney, but have a Merry Christmas!
Biggd is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Biggd For This Useful Post:
Reilly (12-22-2018), Skip (12-21-2018)
Old 12-21-2018, 08:17 AM   #60
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,743
Thanks: 435
Thanked 493 Times in 277 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
• As to "early days of building houses", there are now expensive houses on shoreline lots my Dad used to call "unbuildable".
So then your father didn't really understand what he was observing?

__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to brk-lnt For This Useful Post:
Skip (12-21-2018)
Old 12-21-2018, 10:18 AM   #61
Taz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 186
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Default

• ApS is content with Loons as fowl.

• A B&W pre-war photo (taken from Tuftonboro's Camp Boycroft) of three miles of Winter Harbor's northeast shoreline showed only one human structure! Fortunately, that entire shoreline has never been suitable for Loon nests.

• Contradicting your undocumented website, the ONE nest in Winter Harbor (formerly Tuftonboro Bay) is in shallow water.

• However suitable the shoreline, nesting platforms are highly desirable, as they protect against egg-robbing raids by Racoons.

• As recently as within the past decade, we had no boatlifts, seawalls or breakwaters inside Winter Harbor's protected waters.

• Photos I've taken of Winter Harbor's northeast shoreline—only a few years apart—are unrecognizable. Rocks—and some large boulders—are falling out of the shoreline!

Maybe the one shallow water nest is because there is nothing else available.

nesting platforms may help loons vs. racoons but the main reason for nesting platforms is because of shoreline development.

Boatlifts, seawalls, breakwaters proves my point. Shoreline development is pushing loon nesting out.

wild animals all over the world are struggling because of losing habitat to human development. Winnipesaukee loons are no different. Bottomline: There would be a lot more loon nests on Winnipesaukee shoreline if not for all the shoreline development by humans.
Taz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2018, 04:09 AM   #62
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Question No Wake—What's Not to Understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post

• ApS is content with Loons as fowl.

• A B&W pre-war photo (taken from Tuftonboro's Camp Boycroft) of three miles of Winter Harbor's northeast shoreline showed only one human structure! Fortunately, that entire shoreline has never been suitable for Loon nests.

• Contradicting your undocumented website, the ONE nest in Winter Harbor (formerly Tuftonboro Bay) is in shallow water.

• However suitable the shoreline, nesting platforms are highly desirable, as they protect against egg-robbing raids by Racoons.

• As recently as within the past decade, we had no boatlifts, seawalls or breakwaters inside Winter Harbor's protected waters.

• Photos I've taken of Winter Harbor's northeast shoreline—only a few years apart—are unrecognizable. Rocks—and some large boulders—are falling out of the shoreline!


Maybe the one shallow water nest is because there is nothing else available.

nesting platforms may help loons vs. racoons but the main reason for nesting platforms is because of shoreline development.

Boatlifts, seawalls, breakwaters proves my point. Shoreline development is pushing loon nesting out.

wild animals all over the world are struggling because of losing habitat to human development. Winnipesaukee loons are no different. Bottomline: There would be a lot more loon nests on Winnipesaukee shoreline if not for all the shoreline development by humans.
Protecting those nesting sites that remain becomes even more important.

Shouldn't modern Humanity's dominion over wild animals be expected to take a turn for the better?

Most images of floating artificial Loon nest sites don't show any human habitation in the background. Some installers (the "Loon Rangers") of floating artificial Loon nest sites are shown wading out to anchor them.



It's especially incumbent on oversized boats and PWCs to observe the security of our remaining Loon population on Lake Winnipesaukee. IMO.

__________________
.Sailing—Good for you and good for the world...
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ApS For This Useful Post:
FlyingScot (12-23-2018)
Old 12-22-2018, 08:01 AM   #63
tis
Senior Member
 
tis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,329
Thanks: 407
Thanked 713 Times in 497 Posts
Default

Good advice, APS!
tis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2018, 08:05 AM   #64
Lakegeezer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moultonboro, NH
Posts: 1,473
Thanks: 278
Thanked 456 Times in 200 Posts
Default

As long as this thread has gone loony, its worth pointing out that the natural habitat for loons is moving north. There aren't many loons in MA and CT any more and the population was declining in NH before Loon Preservation Committee (LPC) started in 1975. If you like loons, join and donate to the LPC. It is why we have so many.

Today, there are three times the 1975 population, partly because the LPC puts out almost 100 artificial nests each year, and rescues loons in distress.

Shoreline building and boat wake are issues for sure, but the changing climate is a factor in moving the species north. With more spikes in temperature and rainfall during the incubation season (May-July), eggs are getting hotter and nests are swamped by rising waters. This lowers the hatch rate. Here, artificial nests can help.

When loons build natural nests, they don't always pick the no-wake zones anyway. Then, Darwinism comes into play, with the successful loon pairs choosing a better spot.
__________________
-lg
Lakegeezer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2018, 08:28 PM   #65
Taz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 186
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Default Shoreline developement -what does APS not understand

Within the Adirondack Park, some of the highest rates of development are occurring along lakeshores. The development of shoreline for seasonal, residential homes often creates an increase in recreational lake activity that coincides with critical breeding and nesting times for the common loon.

Ecological changes which have been documented as a result of shoreline development include: fewer territorial loons inhabiting developed lakes, decreased availability of potential nesting sites, reduced hatching success of loon pairs in close proximity to developed areas and increased susceptibility to scavenging predators that are attracted to human refuse. Currently, many local and regional studies are being conducted in order to assess the impacts of shoreline development and increased recreational activity on the reproductive success of loons.

The above is an excerpt from one study of many found on-line.

It's simple, Loons build nests on the shoreline, extensive shoreline development takes away those potential nests sites.
Taz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2018, 09:44 PM   #66
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 394
Thanks: 157
Thanked 81 Times in 54 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
Within the Adirondack Park, some of the highest rates of development are occurring along lakeshores. The development of shoreline for seasonal, residential homes often creates an increase in recreational lake activity that coincides with critical breeding and nesting times for the common loon.

Ecological changes which have been documented as a result of shoreline development include: fewer territorial loons inhabiting developed lakes, decreased availability of potential nesting sites, reduced hatching success of loon pairs in close proximity to developed areas and increased susceptibility to scavenging predators that are attracted to human refuse. Currently, many local and regional studies are being conducted in order to assess the impacts of shoreline development and increased recreational activity on the reproductive success of loons.

The above is an excerpt from one study of many found on-line.

It's simple, Loons build nests on the shoreline, extensive shoreline development takes away those potential nests sites.
OK, but none of that changes the basic point that boats can be bad for loons
FlyingScot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2018, 07:41 AM   #67
Taz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 186
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
OK, but none of that changes the basic point that boats can be bad for loons
My point was it's not just boats that are bad for loons. Many shoreline property owners don't want to acknowledge that.
Taz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2018, 09:28 AM   #68
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,872
Thanks: 174
Thanked 1,210 Times in 461 Posts
Default

Human interaction as a whole whether it be for recreational purposes or development purposes impacts wildlife. It's just a matter of where that tipping point is where either animals leave and don't come back or stay put and adapt to human presence.
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2018, 07:59 PM   #69
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Arrow Something In The Future We Can Do Something About...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
My point was it's not just boats that are bad for loons. Many shoreline property owners don't want to acknowledge that.
Shoreline property owners pay their share of taxes; otherwise, all they can do is to wring their hands over shoreline development—which was entirely beyond their control.

The intensification in number and size of boat wakes are razing Winnipesaukee's shorelines. Future damage to shorelines is something that can be controlled.
__________________
.Sailing—Good for you and good for the world...
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2018, 07:28 AM   #70
Taz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 186
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Shoreline property owners pay their share of taxes; otherwise, all they can do is to wring their hands over shoreline development—which was entirely beyond their control.

The intensification in number and size of boat wakes are razing Winnipesaukee's shorelines. Future damage to shorelines is something that can be controlled.
I pay my fair share of taxes in a Winni shorefront town as well, on 2 properties. Not sure what that has to do with loons.

Just because shoreline developement can not be reversed does not change the fact that shoreline development is the major reason for loons losing most of their nesting sites.

I disagree with intensification in number and size of boat wakes. There are more and more pontoon boats and less and less large cruiser type boats. There are more and more people buying property off the lake locally and buying a small day boat/pontoon boat instead of living on a large cruiser for a weekend. Alot less large cruisers on the lake and many more pontoon and day boats.

Last edited by Taz; 12-25-2018 at 12:36 PM.
Taz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2018, 04:29 PM   #71
kawishiwi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 406
Thanks: 147
Thanked 95 Times in 66 Posts
Default Discounting....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
I pay my fair share of taxes in a Winni shorefront town as well, on 2 properties. Not sure what that has to do with loons.

Just because shoreline developement can not be reversed does not change the fact that shoreline development is the major reason for loons losing most of their nesting sites.

I disagree with intensification in number and size of boat wakes. There are more and more pontoon boats and less and less large cruiser type boats. There are more and more people buying property off the lake locally and buying a small day boat/pontoon boat instead of living on a large cruiser for a weekend. Alot less large cruisers on the lake and many more pontoon and day boats.
I think you might be missing the newly prevalent wake boats, designed to make bigger wakes, and often operated in otherwise sheltered locations.

I spent 6 summers canoeing in a million acres of almost completely non-motorized lakes on the Minn./Ontario border where loons are prevalent. Every loon nest I saw was on a very wind protected and level, small shrubby shoreline, usually on a small island.
I would guess a great number of lakeside homes dont have this type of location and do not affect loon nesting at all. Homes back in coves are more likely to affect likely nesting but only if the right kind of shoreline is present. However just a number of homes & the associated activity would disrupt nearby nesting locations.
The nearness of people activity and the 'artificial' waves of boats in otherwise protected areas are a big problem.
Of course fishing is a great risk to loons as a fatal dose of lead is one large split shot. One. Fatal. And then discarded line is a scourge also, to all kinds of wildlife.

So...us fisherman need to abide by the no lead law & keep our discarded line in the boat. Wake boaters need to stay away from sheltered coves. All cove goers should be aware. Prime nesting areas could be protected or even conserved. Loons should be left alone even by kayakers.
__________________
"We're going to have the best people"
-- 'Individual 1'
kawishiwi is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to kawishiwi For This Useful Post:
KPW (12-26-2018)
Old 12-26-2018, 04:30 AM   #72
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Arrow "Boating Intensity" Intensifying...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
I pay my fair share of taxes in a Winni shorefront town as well, on 2 properties. Not sure what that has to do with loons.

Just because shoreline developement can not be reversed does not change the fact that shoreline development is the major reason for loons losing most of their nesting sites.

I disagree with intensification in number and size of boat wakes. There are more and more pontoon boats and less and less large cruiser type boats. There are more and more people buying property off the lake locally and buying a small day boat/pontoon boat instead of living on a large cruiser for a weekend. Alot less large cruisers on the lake and many more pontoon and day boats.
• Developers in my particular Florida County are required to donate to the County a less-desirable building lot that is equivalent in size to the one they are developing.

• That unbuilt lot is added to the County's Conservation Trust. (Which abuts 100s of thousands of Federally-owned wildlife refuge acres—where Jet-Skis are prohibited).

• Well intentioned Lakes Region Towns could set aside tax monies to buy-back suitable Loon shoreline habitat for restoration. However, there's no point in initiating such a program, as oversized boaters will continually assault such restorations.

• As for "boating intensity", you probably didn't know that Johnson's Cove once had a waterski slalom course set up in its calm waters. Visit Johnson's Cove on any summer weekend to see what "boating intensity" looks like today.

Maybe a photograph of boat houses, docks, boat lifts, breakwaters or dock awnings that have been "downsized" would help me understand the reduction in boat wakes mentioned above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
So then your father didn't really understand what he was observing?
As a life-long aviator in the 'Boros, he had a bird's-eye view of land that was compromised in one way or another.
__________________
.Sailing—Good for you and good for the world...
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ApS For This Useful Post:
stingray (12-31-2018)
Old 12-26-2018, 10:35 AM   #73
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 394
Thanks: 157
Thanked 81 Times in 54 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
My point was it's not just boats that are bad for loons. Many shoreline property owners don't want to acknowledge that.
I agree completely that virtually all development and human activity at the scale that Winni experiences has a negative impact on loons or other aspects of the environment. But I'm pretty sure you're not suggesting that none of us use the lake.

Instead the reasonable conclusion is that we should all trim back a bit in ways that are relatively easy. Just for example--the waterfront homeowners you point at (and I'm included in this category) should make sure to have natural buffers between their houses at the water, not broad green lawns with fertilizer.
FlyingScot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 11:39 AM   #74
Biggd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH
Posts: 1,345
Thanks: 286
Thanked 194 Times in 140 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
I agree completely that virtually all development and human activity at the scale that Winni experiences has a negative impact on loons or other aspects of the environment. But I'm pretty sure you're not suggesting that none of us use the lake.

Instead the reasonable conclusion is that we should all trim back a bit in ways that are relatively easy. Just for example--the waterfront homeowners you point at (and I'm included in this category) should make sure to have natural buffers between their houses at the water, not broad green lawns with fertilizer.
You can't put the Genie back in the bottle. As my dad use to say when I did something that wasn't smart "this is the first day of the rest of your life, get it right"!
Biggd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2018, 01:57 PM   #75
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 394
Thanks: 157
Thanked 81 Times in 54 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggd View Post
You can't put the Genie back in the bottle. As my dad use to say when I did something that wasn't smart "this is the first day of the rest of your life, get it right"!
Exactly. We should not abandon homes, boats, etc. We should just use them right
FlyingScot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2018, 01:28 PM   #76
LIforrelaxin
Senior Member
 
LIforrelaxin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee
Posts: 2,125
Thanks: 753
Thanked 586 Times in 312 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Protecting those nesting sites that remain becomes even more important.

Shouldn't modern Humanity's dominion over wild animals be expected to take a turn for the better?

Most images of floating artificial Loon nest sites don't show any human habitation in the background. Some installers (the "Loon Rangers") of floating artificial Loon nest sites are shown wading out to anchor them.

< Image Removed >

It's especially incumbent on oversized boats and PWCs to observe the security of our remaining Loon population on Lake Winnipesaukee. IMO.

< Image Removed >
ApS,

Maybe you haven't heard but the numbers I heard this year on Loon population show that there are more loons now in NH then there where when efforts were started to protect them.

What does that mean? It means that the efforts in place are working in large. While yes there could be and are situations where for a variety of reasons some nest sites are not working out.....Those instances aren't jeopardizing the come back of the loon population.

Trying to insinuate that no-wake zone violators are jeopardizing the loon protection efforts is a stretch.... The Wind, and the waves it creates have just as much to do that in most cases....

Anyway, what do I know, I spend all summer watching and checking on loon sites with my wife.......
__________________
Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....
LIforrelaxin is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to LIforrelaxin For This Useful Post:
stingray (12-31-2018)
Old 12-30-2018, 05:45 PM   #77
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,637
Thanks: 205
Thanked 524 Times in 319 Posts
Default

How big of a wake can a loon possibly make?
__________________
Captain of "Mischief Managed"
Say hi if you see us on the lake.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
LIforrelaxin (01-02-2019)
Old 12-30-2018, 11:08 PM   #78
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 1,301
Thanks: 388
Thanked 363 Times in 225 Posts
Default It's the law

Doesn't matter to some how big the wake is, as long as the Loon doesn't exceed 6 MPH. I think they can do that underwater.
Descant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2019, 02:37 AM   #79
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Arrow Loons Select Quiet Waters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
ApS, Maybe you haven't heard but the numbers I heard this year on Loon population show that there are more loons now in NH then there where when efforts were started to protect them. What does that mean? It means that the efforts in place are working in large. While yes there could be and are situations where for a variety of reasons some nest sites are not working out.....Those instances aren't jeopardizing the come back of the loon population. Trying to insinuate that no-wake zone violators are jeopardizing the loon protection efforts is a stretch....
The Wind, and the waves it creates
have just as much to do that in most cases....


Anyway, what do I know, I spend all summer watching and checking on loon sites with my wife.......
Naturally strong winds can hit the rocky breakwaters on the Broads side of Wolfeboro Neck, and send spray over the next breakwater. It is probably natural wind-driven erosion that makes the newly-built lots facing the Broads so very steep—even subjecting the owners to DES interventions.

Those areas are not the areas that Loons select for their nests. Loons, like some people, prefer waters away from the rage that Nature uses to "naturally" erode shorelines.

On sunny days—those known for three days of gale force winds—the upper surface of our dock boards (built 1983) never get wet. However, any weekend of over-sized boat wakes will inconsiderately soak our dock—even to a condition of hazardous green and slippery saturation.

ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 03:56 PM   #80
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,872
Thanks: 174
Thanked 1,210 Times in 461 Posts
Default

Build your dock higher off the water, problem solved.
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 10:56 PM   #81
Blyblvrd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Londonderry & Moultonborough
Posts: 67
Thanks: 30
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

On rainy days Mother Nature soaks our dock.


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
Blyblvrd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2019, 08:39 AM   #82
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,637
Thanks: 205
Thanked 524 Times in 319 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post

On sunny days—those known for three days of gale force winds—the upper surface of our dock boards (built 1983) never get wet. However, any weekend of over-sized boat wakes will inconsiderately soak our dock—even to a condition of hazardous green and slippery saturation.

Wouldn't rain do the same thing? Have you considered scrubbing the slime off with a stiff bristle brush? Seem like it would be less work than trying keep an outdoor dock dry.
__________________
Captain of "Mischief Managed"
Say hi if you see us on the lake.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2019, 10:16 AM   #83
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,872
Thanks: 174
Thanked 1,210 Times in 461 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blyblvrd View Post
On rainy days Mother Nature soaks our dock.

Is mother nature oversized too?
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2019, 05:10 AM   #84
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Arrow Getting Wetter Since 1983...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Build your dock higher off the water, problem solved.
Wakes increase in height as they approach the shoreline. Most of our "splashed" areas are within eight feet of shore. Because of the professional custom fitting in 1983, the shoreline section would be the most difficult section to raise.

Anyway, it's not just the dock's surface that suffers from oversized wakes. Below the top boards, two cross members have suffered rot, so the opportunity to raise the dock was present this past summer.



(I'll explain how a home owner can replace piling dock cross members—without getting wet —in a later Home, Cottage, or Land Maintenance thread).

Raising wouldn't help, as it's the "rebound-splash" against shoreline boulders that is doing the soaking. I've placed a 2x10 vertically to reduce rebound-splash. It's not enough—as the dock stays wet, even as Lakeport lowers the lake level through the season.

Maybe move the boulders?
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2019, 12:35 PM   #85
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,637
Thanks: 205
Thanked 524 Times in 319 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Anyway, it's not just the dock's surface that suffers from oversized wakes. Below the top boards, two cross members have suffered rot, so the opportunity to raise the dock was present this past summer.
Are you seriously complaining about the underside of your dock getting wet? #firstworldproblems
__________________
Captain of "Mischief Managed"
Say hi if you see us on the lake.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2019, 01:29 PM   #86
Woodsy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Weirs Beach
Posts: 1,507
Thanks: 41
Thanked 627 Times in 257 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Wakes increase in height as they approach the shoreline. Most of our "splashed" areas are within eight feet of shore. Because of the professional custom fitting in 1983, the shoreline section would be the most difficult section to raise.

Anyway, it's not just the dock's surface that suffers from oversized wakes. Below the top boards, two cross members have suffered rot, so the opportunity to raise the dock was present this past summer.



(I'll explain how a home owner can replace piling dock cross members—without getting wet —in a later Home, Cottage, or Land Maintenance thread).

Raising wouldn't help, as it's the "rebound-splash" against shoreline boulders that is doing the soaking. I've placed a 2x10 vertically to reduce rebound-splash. It's not enough—as the dock stays wet, even as Lakeport lowers the lake level through the season.

Maybe move the boulders?
Just remove the dock...... problem SOLVED!

Woodsy
__________________
The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.
Woodsy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Woodsy For This Useful Post:
MAXUM (01-07-2019)
Old 01-07-2019, 02:26 PM   #87
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hooksett, NH & Bear Island, NH
Posts: 1,872
Thanks: 174
Thanked 1,210 Times in 461 Posts
Default

First 8-10 feet of my dock gets and stays wet pretty much the entire season from the combination of wind driven waves or wakes on busy weekends. Is what it is, instead of making a royal case of it I just deal with it and have over the course of time incorporated\replaced those areas with materials that can withstand being wet all the time. I do not see why I should impose restrictions on others that wish to enjoy the lake so that I may have a "dry" dock.

You should instead be grateful that you are one of a few fortunate individuals that has a place on the lake to enjoy.
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MAXUM For This Useful Post:
LIforrelaxin (01-07-2019)
Old 01-08-2019, 04:31 AM   #88
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,209
Thanks: 780
Thanked 388 Times in 279 Posts
Question Getting Wetter Since 1983?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
Are you seriously complaining about the underside of your dock getting wet?
#firstworldproblems
Since I have the tools, the inclination, and the time to fix such things, I can't complain about dock repairs.

Interesting that our dock problems increase as the shoreline diminishes in depth; meaning, wake-height increases as wakes approach shore. (As written uncontested earlier).

My complaint? "First-world" boats carrying third-world boating attitudes.
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2019, 07:48 AM   #89
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,871
Thanks: 187
Thanked 433 Times in 319 Posts
Default

My antique aluminum dock, maybe 65-years old(?), already has many rag-tag repairs throughout, and it got a little crunched again, by an incoming, wind driven, huge ice sheet on Sunday, so maybe its time to replace it?

So, where's to go to window shop one of those fancy-dancy aluminum docks with the removable mahogany deck within?

Middleton Lumber in Meredith has something called a 4x8' cedar/aluminum dock kit - Tommy Docks for 226.95/ea .... ?

One more year, and my olde docke will qualify for its own social security account ...... can an aluminum dock get social security based on its' lack-of-work history?
.........

Hey ApS ..... you ever think about paint'n your old pressure treated dock there with a 20-dollar gallon of grey paint from Walmart ...... could go a long way to shedding all that water, and keep'n it dry?

Grey is the #1 best color for docks ...... beige, brown, dark red ...... nothing comes close to plain medium grey!
__________________
Down & out, livn that Walmart side of the lake!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 01-08-2019 at 08:40 AM.
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 0.47403 seconds