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02-10-2020, 05:05 PM | #1 |
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Solar?
Anyone on here installed solar panels? My little chalet in Moultonborough isn't too big, runs electric heat in the winter, a wall A/C in the summer, and now a hot tub. With the growing rate of my electric bill running this stuff, I'm contemplating a switch to Solar and wondering if it's worth it from a cost/installation standpoint.
My place is two floors, 32x24 so it's not huge. I'm trying to figure what the gross cost is and then net after incentives, reimbursements, etc. Also, how intense is the installation? I feel like it wouldn't be an extensive install. Recommendations on who to work with? Any other helpful info to contemplate?
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02-10-2020, 05:50 PM | #2 |
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I believe we have a Solar rep on the forum. Sure he can assist
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02-10-2020, 06:11 PM | #3 | |
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02-10-2020, 06:24 PM | #4 |
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Start off by getting rid of that wall AC and installing a mini split heat pump.
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02-10-2020, 07:23 PM | #5 |
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Hi Shreddy,
I've done a lot of installations around the lake and would be glad to help you in your research on powering your secondary home. You have some very hungry loads but that doesn't have to be a real problem If you are currently grid tied your success will be based on the concept of net metering. As a kid do you remember seeing the old analog rotary electric meters spinning? and if they were under a heavy load they would spin at a really frantic rate. The new digital meters aren't as fun to watch, but the concept is the same. With net metering you would still see those expensive frantic forward wheel rotations when you fired up the hot tub for a starry evening, but at least you would be chewing through solar credits rather than hard earned dollars. Because of the infrequent usage of your home there will be plenty of days when even a small solar array will generate quite a lot of excess energy that will be exported into the grid and spin the meter steadily backwards building up credits on your Co-op (?) account at a rate of 75 cents on the dollar. The grid connection will allow you to consume power at whatever frantic rate your electrical service can handle, while the slow and steady buildup of credits when you aren't there will help to offset the luxury of your consumption. Yes it would be best if you incorporated some more efficient HVAC, lighting, hot water, etc, but if they are working fine just crank then and enjoy! Adding a few extra panels to a system design to accommodate the inefficiency of an older system is relatively inexpensive, upgrading a system to gain peak efficiency often is not. Crank those baseboards and window ac units, if you have enough solar power it won't add to your monthly bill and you also won't be creating any heavier carbon footprint. Off grid is another matter and your power consumption needs to be carefully planned and controlled. That being said power limitation these days is totally not an issue. Powering a 200 amp panel 24/7 in late December is now an easy reality whereas even just five years ago it was a struggle. Two years ago I installed one totally off grid system, last year six, and I already have two booked for this spring once the ice goes out. From a financial perspective, every time you send a dollar to the utility company to pay your monthly utility bill it is a pure expense and that dollar is spent and gone. If you divert that same outlay to the purchase of a solar array the dollar will now be spent on an equity that belongs to you. It is similar in concept to the difference between paying rent and paying mortgage. Final note, and I bet a lot of folks on this forum don't know this, the NHEC has recently invested in their own 2.59 MEGA watt solar array on Moultonborough Neck Rd. That is 8000 modules and if you look at it on Google Earth it is truly impressive. Is solar worth the investment in the Lakes region? Well apparently the Co-op thinks so! Peter |
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02-10-2020, 10:39 PM | #6 |
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Hi Shreddy,
I have solar in Mass and it's a great deal financially. You get 26% of the cost back right away from the IRS in the form of a tax credit, and then the system usually pays for itself in 6-7 years through lower electric bills and production credits. (I don't know how the NH credits work, so YMMV) After that, you get free electricity for another 20 years or so. For financial analysts on the forum, the annual return (IRR) is about 18% with very low risk. So it's more than twice what you would expect from the stock market over the same time. The best thing to do is call a 2-3 installers--give them your address and your electric bill, and they can give you a preliminary estimate through computer modeling of system cost and financial return. Then meet with the ones who sound good on the phone. After you sign up, it can take a few months to get permitting, and then about a week for the install. Good luck--keep us posted! |
02-12-2020, 09:25 AM | #7 |
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This is all very helpful. My electric bill this past month came in with close to 1600kw of usage which was bananas. Granted, it's winter so I left the heat on 50 upstairs and downstairs, have the hot tub, etc. I'll probably wait until april/may to see what it levels out to on a normal non-winter basis before running the numbers.
Trust me, mini split is already being contemplated as well to make things more efficient I've only owned the place since June so there's still some things to tighten up.
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02-12-2020, 09:54 AM | #8 | |
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02-12-2020, 10:25 AM | #9 |
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I put in solar in Mass which has already paid for itself. If your're in your home for the long term, I would encourage you to talk with installers and run the numbers. My guess is you'll be pleasantly suprised by the benefits. As an added bonus, I like the stability of my electrical costs (0!).
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02-12-2020, 10:50 AM | #10 | |
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02-12-2020, 10:56 AM | #11 |
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I agree! One thing I wish I had done during my install was to switch from oil hot water to an electric heat pump hot water tank with the oil as a backup. I would love to turn my oil burner off from April through November. Maybe this spring...
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02-12-2020, 11:09 AM | #12 | |
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If cost were my first requirement, though, I'd definitely look to a heat pump and, once getting those electric demands as low as possible, solar. I've never gotten great numbers to compare to, but we pay $260/mth. year-round for a 2,200 ft² split with an all-electric house with AC. NG is at the street, though, and we have ductwork in the attic, so I've been thinking... Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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02-12-2020, 12:16 PM | #13 |
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That's what I got which begs the question of solar. I can either shell out the cost for a mini split or two and still have an electric bill because I run other items such as lights and hot tub...OR I can contemplate floating the cost of Solar as a long term play, run whatever I want to run and eliminate my electric bill all together without having to think about the cost of a mini split.
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02-12-2020, 12:20 PM | #14 | |
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02-12-2020, 01:21 PM | #15 |
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I know it's not solar, but these "renewable energy" choices have consequences that their proponents rarely disclose....
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...p-in-landfills Where's the outrage? Nothing to see here folks, move along.... |
02-12-2020, 01:23 PM | #16 |
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I installed a four head mini spilt this past summer. Both, AC and heat. Three of the heads run year round. Have not had to use the electric baseboard heat at all. I received a call from Eversource that they were coming to unplug my meter for the baseboards as it appears I am no longer using it. Never came once I questioned whether the baseboards are still running if needed. They havd there own meter install in the 80’s as a promotional service. I get a minor reduction in rate. Long story short, 12k investment on mini, electric bill reduced by 35/40%. Pay back 8 to 10 years. But, heat quality is better. Fan forced around the room and no were near as dry as the baseboards. In fact, no humidifier needed. That’s a big plus
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02-12-2020, 02:32 PM | #17 | |
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02-12-2020, 02:51 PM | #18 | |
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Mini splits would be nice, but like I said, I'd have to run them upstairs and downstairs but it wouldn't get rid of the electricity usage from the hot tub. Even though folks have mentioned get rid of baseboard, it's already there, easy to use, and low maintenance. If I have solar, I can run it as I feel during the winter and run the wall A/C in the summer without issue.
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02-12-2020, 03:00 PM | #19 |
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I'd be interested to know what size solar you'd have to go to in order to run the tub and electric baseboard vs. mini splits, etc. and the associated costs.
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02-12-2020, 03:13 PM | #20 |
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What I have found is when a company says they are going to save you money they use funny math. I had an energy audit done on my house in Ma 5 years ago and did what was recommended. I have yet to see the payback that their funny math projected.
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02-12-2020, 03:22 PM | #21 | |
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02-12-2020, 04:49 PM | #22 | |
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02-12-2020, 05:03 PM | #23 | |
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02-12-2020, 05:10 PM | #24 | |
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02-12-2020, 05:17 PM | #25 | |
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02-12-2020, 05:20 PM | #26 | |
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With respect to the comment on some home improvement guys using fuzzy math--I'm not surprised to hear that some do that. My solar panels have actually generated more savings than originally promised when installed 20 months ago. |
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02-12-2020, 05:25 PM | #27 | |
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02-12-2020, 05:29 PM | #28 |
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Rough simple figures...
About $16K gross will get you a simple 6.4 kW (20 modules) grid tied roof mounted array. If your roof has a good exposure (170-220 azimuth, 8/12 pitch, and solid sun from 9-4) you will get about 8,000 kWh per year of solar harvest. This would equate to an average NHEC monthly bill of just over $100.
You will get a 26% tax credit from Uncle Sam and a $1,000 rebate from the State of NH PUC, so you net cost after incentives would be $10,840. If you take that net and divide it by 8,000 kWh x .16 (the current Co-op rate) it tells you that the solar system will save $1,280 per year. Divide the net cost of $10,840 by the savings and your ROI is 8.47 years. Ie, that is how long it will take for the savings to justify the net cost of the installation ...if you assume that the electric rate will never go up ...and if you totally dismiss the fact that a monthly electric bill is purely an expense, while the funds spent on a solar array goes toward an asset the adds to both the value and salability of your property. Oh, and one other little thing, a solar array has a life cycle of 35+ years. If the array has justified its cost in ~8.5 years, that will mean that for the following 26.5+ years your electricity will potentially cost you nothing. If you take the 26.5 years of free and clear and multiply it by the annual at the current electrical rate the savings is... $33,920. How's that grab you? To be the devils advocate, what can go wrong during that projected 35+ year life cycle? With the solar modules likely nothing, they almost all carry a 25 year warranty are non-switching and relatively bulletproof. The most likely failure would be an inverter but even those generally have a 12+ year warranty. If you assume realistically that an inverter will fail during the 35+ year life cycle it will cost about $2,500 to have it replaced, but in most cases I tell my clients to consider this pretty much a wash against the slowly creeping electrical rates. Over the past twenty years electrical rates in NH have risen on average about 5% a year. How long can a solar system potentially last? Most likely much longer than any of us but the modules do degrade in performance at a rate of about 1-2% per year as they age. The 25 year warranty generally actually guarantees the performance of the module and in most cases they are warrantied to produce 80% of the rated power on year 25. Think about that for a minute, 25 years ago we were burning 100 watt light bulbs to get the same illumination that we now get out of an 18 watt bulb, and running electric baseboard heaters that consumed electricity at a rate 2.5 times higher than what it takes now to get the same BTU out of a modern air source heat pump. But don't be too anxious to dump the baseboards and spend a lot of money on a mini-split unless the state of the equipment dictates it. As Thinkxingu has pointed out, baseboards are cheap, reliable, effective for heating, and require little or no maintenance. Yes, just like the hot tub they consume a lot of electricity, but if you have a large enough solar array you won't care and neither will the environment. If you have yard space, I will almost always recommend a ground mount over a roof mount but not for the common reason. A roof mount properly installed will not cause leakage, but the roof has to be in very good condition before the install is done. The reason I am so enthusiastic about ground mounts lies in bi-facial modules. Bifacials are clear on the back sheet rather than opaque and will absorb the solar energy reflected of the ground. This is negligible during the summer, but the long days of strong sunlight negate this. Where bifacials really excel is when there is snow on the ground and that is a time when most houses need the extra energy boost the most. A bifacial ground mounted array will outperform a conventional module array by 20-25% all winter long. This is just a simplified explanation and there are a lot of variables, both good and bad, but solar has really come into its own over the last few years. If you want exact details about your site, contact me and my competitors and get a bunch of bids based on your exact site. |
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02-12-2020, 05:43 PM | #29 | |
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02-12-2020, 05:51 PM | #30 |
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Look again Shreddy, I just added a bit more information in an edit.
My belief is to add the solar first and stop the monthly bleeding, then go after the efficiencies. If in the future, after doing the HVAC upgrade, you find that you now have excess energy it is pretty easy to utilize. I recently bought a Chevy Volt and it gets me to Cannon 2-3 times a week on just the excess solar coming off my roof ...sure beats filling up the Duramax once a week with expensive dirty diesel (and no I won't ever give up the Duramax, the Volt won't pull 10,000# with ease). There is a fantastic HVAC installer in your town that I'd recommend as your first contact; Austin at AM HVAC, 476-8933. Don't lose the number ...he doesn't have to advertise Last edited by NH.Solar; 02-26-2020 at 11:44 AM. |
02-12-2020, 05:53 PM | #31 |
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No one says you have to get rid of the electric base board heat if you get a mini split, keep them as back up. I got an estimate for a mini split on my 1700 sq ft house of under 8K from The Heat Geek in Belmont.
I heat with oil and wood burning stove but I know the mini split will reduce my oil bill, wood usage, and my electric bill in the summer getting rid of the window A/C's. But I don't have a hot tub and my electric bill is never over $100 per month. I do have to admit that I hate the look of solar panels of a roof and I would never pay extra for a house with them on the it, JMO! I'm of the mind set of trying to reduce consumption first rather than trying to find another way to feed it. Last edited by Biggd; 02-12-2020 at 07:07 PM. |
02-12-2020, 06:49 PM | #32 | |
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02-13-2020, 10:34 AM | #33 | |
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02-13-2020, 11:34 AM | #34 | |
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My plan in the next couple of years, is to get a small setup put together, that I can use to provide power to a crawl space heater, to help keep pipes from freezing and extend my fall season.... with out increasing my electric bill....
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02-13-2020, 11:46 AM | #35 | |
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I bought my place 5 years ago. It was built in the 80's and initially had electric baseboard heat, I guess that was a thing back then. I was told by the real estate agent that when he went to refinance the mortgage they wouldn't give it to him unless he put in a regular heating system. So he install an oil fired hot water system and removed the electric baseboard heaters.. That was 30 years ago and I replaced the boiler when I bought the place. Now I'm considering a mini split heat pump for AC and another heat source for when oil spikes. I'm not trying to turn you off to solar but your place is small enough that I don't think a mini split would cost all that much. I think the savings would be considerable and I think the payback would be fairly quick. There are rebates for mini splits also but no where near what they are for solar. Last edited by Biggd; 02-13-2020 at 12:52 PM. |
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02-13-2020, 05:21 PM | #36 | |
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02-17-2020, 08:56 PM | #37 |
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Onsite advice
1. FREE Have a couple of firms do an analysis. Preliminary can be done looking at Google earth and on the phone. Can you remove trees, or do they belong to neighbors?
2 FREE Have an onsite visit 3. Next cheapest: Put all your electric stuff on timers or control from your cell phone 4. Low cost: Do an energy audit. Seal cracks, add insulation etc. 5. Low upfront cost: you can lease solar panels instead of buying. May or may not be a good deal, but check it out. 6. As home #3, it appears to be used mostly for snowmobile weekends. Make a better effort to rent or raise the rent for summer or shoulder season tenants. 7. Go 100% solar and brag to everybody how great it is and what an environmentalist you are even if it costs you a little extra, it's good for the planet and you'll make it up when electric rates go up and/or you sell the house. You're personal friends now with Al Gore. 8. How long are you going to own this place? Can you get back your upfront costs on resale? You can often get your money back on a new kitchen, but not on a new roof. What do local Realtors have to say? I think there are a lot more questions than just the monthly electric bill. |
02-17-2020, 11:04 PM | #38 |
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Are you storing energy in this system?
Or just "feeding the grid"? Which would mean being on-grid at night?
I suppose if your storing your own, there's not much advantage in sending to the power companies and letting them store it.
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02-22-2020, 07:34 AM | #39 |
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...... squirrels nesting under solar panels?
Anyone with solar panels installed on the roof have any problems with red or gray squirrels nesting under the panels, and chewing things up? .....
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02-22-2020, 07:49 AM | #40 |
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Another question
Another question: any problem with winter weather causing ice dams around the panel installations or snow covering the panels.
Dave
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02-22-2020, 03:11 PM | #41 |
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That can be a significant problem. We purchased critter guards for our panels--black metal mesh fence between bottom edges of panels and roof. As a side benefit, they dress up the look in general by hiding the mounting hardware. Between the critter guards and all black panels (no silver frames), the system can look very sharp
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02-22-2020, 03:13 PM | #42 |
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We'd had no problem with ice dams, probably because the top edge of the panels is high upon the roof. The surface of the panels is much slicker than the roof--snow slides off pretty fast.
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