Changing furnace filter

[SailinAway]

I have an oil furnace. There's a slight smoky smell in the house. I checked downstairs for leaks around the flue and don't see any. The furnace also seems to be cycling on and off too often. So I conclude that the most likely cause of both problems is a dirty filter. When was the last time I had the furnace cleaned? I don't dare answer that.

It can take quite a while to get an appointment for a cleaning. In the meantime, can I change the filter myself? Anything I need to know about doing this? Does Home Depot sell filters? Or can I vacuum the filter?

I read online that you're supposed to change the filter every 3 months. That seems excessive to me, but I conclude that every 3 years is bad. Very bad. I have a carbon monoxide detector (recently replaced). I will call the oil company tomorrow if they're open.

[WinnisquamZ]

Is it a forced hot air system?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Descant]

I'm unaware of any filter for a forced hot water system, but the machinery should be serviced annually for best efficiency, new jets, etc. In the mean time, if it is cold out, it will cycle more frequently and any deficiencies will show up more obviously. Your oil delivery company should have a tech on duty 24/7. The sooner you call, the sooner you will move up the list.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by Descant

I'm unaware of any filter for a forced hot water system, but the machinery should be serviced annually for best efficiency, new jets, etc. In the mean time, if it is cold out, it will cycle more frequently and any deficiencies will show up more obviously. Your oil delivery company should have a tech on duty 24/7. The sooner you call, the sooner you will move up the list.

I was thinking the same. The furnace had to work pretty hard this past week and that was the first time I noticed the odor.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Is it a forced hot air system?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Radiators. I was just reading about CO2 poisoning. I think I'll sleep with the window cracked open tonight. I sent a request for service to Dead River.

[8gv]

Smell? Get the furnace human to do a tune up.

Cycling a lot? See above AND it's been very cold out.

Also...
Make sure nothing is open to the outside such as an unlocked double hung window with an upper sash that has dropped a bit.
If you have a whole house fan that is open to the attic it must be covered from above.
Are any cellar windows opened a crack?

Filter? Make note of the direction the air travels. You'll want to install the new one the right way. The filter has its size in inches on its edge. For example it might be 20"x20"x1".

Filters come in varying capability. The hardware store, big box or small, will have guidance on that so you may pick your level of paranoia.

[8gv]

My post above refers to a forced hot air system.

If that is not what you have then never mind.

A filter on a system with radiators might apply to the one that protects the oil burner from impurities in the oil.

That one is best left to the furnace technician.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by 8gv

..Make sure nothing is open to the outside such as an unlocked double hung window with an upper sash that has dropped a bit.

Wow, you're amazing! I did have exactly such a window! I discovered it yesterday. I couldn't get the top sash to stay up so I had to stuff insulation in the crack. I think you're saying that an open window will draw fumes up from the basement?

[8gv]

The open window will make the house cold and thus run the furnace more.

I suspect your oil burner needs a cleaning to make the smell go away.

[Descant]

BTW Carbon monoxide is the poisonous gas that you have detectors for. That would be CO.

CO2 is carbon dioxide, like they use in fire extinguishers and dairy bar whip cream dispensers.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by Descant

BTW Carbon monoxide is the poisonous gas that you have detectors for. That would be CO.

CO2 is carbon dioxide, like they use in fire extinguishers and dairy bar whip cream dispensers.

Oh right, sorry about that. Thanks for the reminder.

[John Mercier]

Your flue needs to be cleaned... badly.

[ITD]

Oil burners need to be serviced yearly by a pro. If you have any appliance that burns anything, you should have a carbon monoxide and smoke detector in the house.

[mswlogo]

You just need to have the furnace serviced.

There is a filter. It’s called an oil filter and your least likely problem.

You really need to service oil burners every year. Two at most, depending on how many gallons you run.

You are not smelling CO. It’s odorless.

Your burner is not firing up properly and you smell soot because it’s igniting late.
It causes a big burp when it does that and you get that soot / diesel oil smell in the house.

Service guy will typically put a new nozzle, change the oil filter, check/clean or replace electrodes, and clean the flue. It all has to get done.

As long as it’s firing up your fine. Especially if it just started but get it serviced ASAP. Now you’ll be competing with people that have no heat because you procrastinated. Don’t F’k with oil burners. They HAVE to be serviced.

I used to do mine myself Purred like a kitten.

[Kamper]

The filter that gets changed often is to clean the air that gets blown back into the house. Yours may be so clogged that the burner is running to the time limit without putting enough warm air into your house. You do need to change that to reduce dust in the ducts and house. It is a simple procedure in most furnaces.

If your system has not been serviced in a while you should definitely schedule that ASAP. At best, a dirty burner is less efficient. More seriously is the chance your flue is clogged (as suggested above.) This will eventually lead to a buildup of carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide, both of which are dangerous.

When you come inside and feel your lungs become irritated you are probably feeling the CO2 buildup. You will not feel the CO but that is more dangerous because it displaces and blocks oxygen abortion on your red blood cells.

Don't wait. Call today for service. Also, people who burn fuel in their homes should have at least on carbon monoxide alarm.

Good luck!

[SailinAway]

Thank you very much for all these helpful responses. I had the carbon monoxide checked last night and fortunately it was 0%. I was able to schedule a cleaning for tomorrow. I do have one carbon monoxide detector upstairs and a smoke detector upstairs and downstairs, both recently replaced.

[DickR]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

... I did have exactly such a window! I discovered it yesterday. I couldn't get the top sash to stay up so I had to stuff insulation in the crack. I think you're saying that an open window will draw fumes up from the basement?

By "stuff insulation in the crack" I assume you used a scrap of fiberglass batt insulation. That's not a super tight seal. Air filters are made out of that stuff; dust collects on the fibers, but the air flows through it easily enough. By really packing enough of that material into a crack, the leakage of air through the crack is reduced but not totally eliminated. It might be useful to apply a strip of blue painter's tape over the crack, on top of the FG stuffed in there. That will provide a better air leakage barrier. In the warmer weather you can do a proper fix.

Air leaks, especially in the upper level of the house, are worse in bitter cold weather, due to "stack effect." Air at zero F is about 15% more dense than inside air at 70 F. That's a relatively huge difference. The taller the column of warm interior air "immersed" (in a sense) in cold outside air, the greater the pressure difference. Its much like diving down into the lake, where the pressure increases steadily due to the weight of the water above any point. Think, too, about the need to have sufficient chimney height above a wood stove to get adequate draft.

Most homes could benefit from a thorough air sealing effort. Typical leakage places are up high, through wiring holes in top plates of the upper story (caulk those with orange can foam), can lights in upper story ceilings (replace those with low profile LED fixtures, sealed to the ceiling), and under the sill at the top of the foundation and where there are any openings to the outside for electrical or plumbing. Also, a chimney often can have a huge open space around it up in the attic.\

There is a wealth of information online. A quick search on "air sealing existing home" turns up many. Here is but one: https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...g-homes-part-1

Reducing the leakiness of a house makes a huge difference not just in heating cost but also in comfort. Air leakage, at its worst in bitter cold and windy weather, flushes out interior humidity produced by human occupancy. Excessive leakage results in exceedingly dry air, so uncomfortable that many resort to active humidification. Needing that almost always is a dead giveaway that the house is far too leaky. Humidification is not the answer; the first step should be tightening up the house. Deliberately adding humidity to a house runs the risk of condensation on cold exterior sheathing and roof decks, with associated mold and rot.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by DickR

By "stuff insulation in the crack" I assume you used a scrap of fiberglass batt insulation. That's not a super tight seal. Air filters are made out of that stuff; dust collects on the fibers, but the air flows through it easily enough. By really packing enough of that material into a crack, the leakage of air through the crack is reduced but not totally eliminated. It might be useful to apply a strip of blue painter's tape over the crack, on top of the FG stuffed in there. That will provide a better air leakage barrier. In the warmer weather you can do a proper fix.

Air leaks, especially in the upper level of the house, are worse in bitter cold weather, due to "stack effect." Air at zero F is about 15% more dense than inside air at 70 F. That's a relatively huge difference. The taller the column of warm interior air "immersed" (in a sense) in cold outside air, the greater the pressure difference. Its much like diving down into the lake, where the pressure increases steadily due to the weight of the water above any point. Think, too, about the need to have sufficient chimney height above a wood stove to get adequate draft.

Most homes could benefit from a thorough air sealing effort. Typical leakage places are up high, through wiring holes in top plates of the upper story (caulk those with orange can foam), can lights in upper story ceilings (replace those with low profile LED fixtures, sealed to the ceiling), and under the sill at the top of the foundation and where there are any openings to the outside for electrical or plumbing. Also, a chimney often can have a huge open space around it up in the attic.\

There is a wealth of information online. A quick search on "air sealing existing home" turns up many. Here is but one: https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...g-homes-part-1

Reducing the leakiness of a house makes a huge difference not just in heating cost but also in comfort. Air leakage, at its worst in bitter cold and windy weather, flushes out interior humidity produced by human occupancy. Excessive leakage results in exceedingly dry air, so uncomfortable that many resort to active humidification. Needing that almost always is a dead giveaway that the house is far too leaky. Humidification is not the answer; the first step should be tightening up the house. Deliberately adding humidity to a house runs the risk of condensation on cold exterior sheathing and roof decks, with associated mold and rot.

Dick, thank you for this interesting and detailed information. I sealed the crack between the window sashes with foam insulation and put tape over it. About 15 years ago I had the whole house draft tested and resealed. The whole basement was sealed with spray foam. It's imperfect though---I no longer have the ambition or ability to put up storm windows every winter. I didn't realize that leakage lowers the humidity; thanks for that information. I run a small humidifier but it only helps a bit. I definitely had very dry air during that cold period last week---16%, which I know isn't good, especially for sensitive musical instruments (guitar, piano).

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I have an oil furnace. There's a slight smoky smell in the house. I checked downstairs for leaks around the flue and don't see any. The furnace also seems to be cycling on and off too often. So I conclude that the most likely cause of both problems is a dirty filter. When was the last time I had the furnace cleaned? I don't dare answer that.

It can take quite a while to get an appointment for a cleaning. In the meantime, can I change the filter myself? Anything I need to know about doing this? Does Home Depot sell filters? Or can I vacuum the filter?

I read online that you're supposed to change the filter every 3 months. That seems excessive to me, but I conclude that every 3 years is bad. Very bad. I have a carbon monoxide detector (recently replaced). I will call the oil company tomorrow if they're open.

Air filters are easy and cheap. The size will be written on it when you pull it out, just buy a new one at Home Depot and slide it in. Just make sure you check the arrows for direction of flow. Turn off your red power switch to the furnace and swap it out. Ours is visible with no cover over the end of it, some systems may have a screw to remove a cover.

Every few months is recommended, more if you have pets. We have 4 dogs, so I have to change monthly.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Air filters are easy and cheap. The size will be written on it when you pull it out, just buy a new one at Home Depot and slide it in. Just make sure you check the arrows for direction of flow. Turn off your red power switch to the furnace and swap it out. Ours is visible with no cover over the end of it, some systems may have a screw to remove a cover.

Every few months is recommended, more if you have pets. We have 4 dogs, so I have to change monthly.

He doesn’t have air filters. He has “radiators” (i.e. Forced Hot Water). And it wouldn’t cause the problems he sees (smells) either.
If you had a clogged air filter it would over heat the heat exchanger and shutdown. Or if you have a modern system it would tell you (one that actually measures air flow rates). Or the blower would trip a breaker due to excessive load (if it doesn’t burn out first). It would not start stinking up the house with fumes. For hot air systems the air flow is completely isolated from combustion chamber.

Now if the system is clean and it’s a hot air system and you get fumes. You might have a heat exchanger leak. That would be bad. That only happens with forced hot air too. Also have to watch out that you’re not pulling fumes into the house from the chimney.

BTW I always ran a chimney cap. Moisture in your chimney does not function well.

I always tend to see Oil is Forced Hot Water and Propane / Natural Gas is frequently Forced Hot Air but sometimes forced Hot Water too, but not as often. I don’t think I’ve even seen oil fired Forced Hot Air but I always assumed they existed.

The “filter” Sailaway it probably recalling from his last service is probably the oil filter. If that clogs up. You are shut down. You really have to go a long time before those clog up.

The most common issue on oil burners is a bad nozzle (they get worn and gum up) and dirty/worn electrodes causes it a to have a long time to ignite. You’ll hear the blower run and a long delay before it ignites. Then the smell. You need a perfect spray pattern and clean perfectly spaced electrodes for it to ignite instantly. Clogged flu is way less common. Nozzle and electrodes is almost always first. If it’s a bad installation with sat long horizontal exhaust pipes then clogged flu is more plausible. Partial blocked flu will cut efficiency.

If it takes to long to ignite the burner safety will eventually trip. If it’s been running like this I would not hit the reset button on the burner. It usually means there is lots of oil in the chamber if it trips. Unless you are in risk of freezing to death If you do, prepare for a boom if it ignites The time between it getting slow to ignite and smelly and tripping burner safety is usually VERY long. Typically months. It’s crying for help though. Most oil companies will come out with in 24 hrs if you have no heat in this weather. It’s a very common first sign of needing service. It also tends to start during a cold spell.

After it gets serviced. Listen to it carefully start. Know your system. Hear the blower start and the roar of the flame. When you hear the flame roar like 5 seconds after the blower, it’s not running optimal. It should be nearly instant. BTW I’ve seen “Professionals” totally botch a service job. I trust none with my families safety. Not electricians, plumbers or auto mechanics. I do hire them when absolutely required. But I watch them like a hawk when I do. It’s not their house and family, it’s yours. Most are very willing to educate you. And I never hesitate to ask questions.

Hmmm, those mini splits are looking more attractive aren’t they.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Hmmm, those mini splits are looking more attractive aren’t they.

Yes they are! Getting ready to move and am thinking of doing the whole house in them. There are 2 pellet stoves and 2 fireplaces as well, but mini splits and some provision to offset a portion with solar is my thought.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

He doesn’t have air filters. He has “radiators” (i.e. Forced Hot Water). And it wouldn’t cause the problems he sees (smells) either. . . .The “filter” Sailaway it probably recalling from his last service is probably the oil filter. If that clogs up. You are shut down. You really have to go a long time before those clog up.

Yes, I have forced hot water radiators. The filter I'm referring to is on the side of the furnace. It's about 20" x 20"or so. I know I have one because I watched the last cleaning and I remember the technician told me I could remove the filter and vacuum it. Thanks for the info about the nozzle and delayed start time in relation to the smell. I'm sure the nozzle is old.

[John Mercier]

20x20 should be a forced hot air furnace. I haven't seen one on a boiler before.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

20x20 should be a forced hot air furnace. I haven't seen one on a boiler before.

Yeah, something doesn't sound right.

Maybe he has an air intake for the Oil Burner Blower with a filter on it or something.

@SailAway can you post a picture?

[SailinAway]

I got the furnace cleaned and serviced today. The cause of the smoke smell was that the flue pipe was a bit corroded. The technician wrapped silver tape around it and said it will last until spring.

Regarding what I was calling a "screen," y'all were right. There was no screen. It was just the clean-out panel on the side of the boiler.

The technician's theory about the short cycling was cold oil or a downdraft during that really cold weather creating a firing delay. The flue is not blocked; draft measured good today.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I got the furnace cleaned and serviced today. The cause of the smoke smell was that the flue pipe was a bit corroded. The technician wrapped silver tape around it and said it will last until spring.

Regarding what I was calling a "screen," y'all were right. There was no screen. It was just the clean-out panel on the side of the boiler.

The technician's theory about the short cycling was cold oil or a downdraft during that really cold weather creating a firing delay. The flue is not blocked; draft measured good today.

Just for clarification, a furnace is not a boiler or vice versa. Sounds like you have a boiler, a furnace generally refers to a forced hot air system that is fossil fuel powered.

Glad you got it fixed. You need to get an oil fired appliance serviced every year or it will let you down eventually. Servicing includes changing the oil nozzle and cleaning the system. Oil filters if needed.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by ITD

Just for clarification, a furnace is not a boiler or vice versa. Sounds like you have a boiler, a furnace generally refers to a forced hot air system that is fossil fuel powered.

Yeah, I know. I was raised calling it a furnace regardless of the type of heat. Even in this thread people refer to it as a furnace. At some point someone usually corrects the terminology.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Yeah, I know. I was raised calling it a furnace regardless of the type of heat. Even in this thread people refer to it as a furnace. At some point someone usually corrects the terminology.

I always called Steam heat a Boiler and the rest a Furnace.
Because only Steam heat "Boils" the water
I believe that's where the original term "Boiler" comes from.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I always called Steam heat a Boiler and the rest a Furnace.
Because only Steam heat "Boils" the water
I believe that's where the original term "Boiler" comes from.

That would be correct.
When we moved to radiant baseboard with an active system rather than the radiators with the gravity system... they just kept the term boiler.

[SailinAway]

I owe you guys some more serious thanks for this thread. A couple of posters mentioned carbon monoxide early on and that made me understand the seriousness of my situation. Without that, I probably would have waited a few days to take action. My parents taught us kids about carbon monoxide poisoning when we were very young. Remember Family Safety magazine in the 1950s and 50s? My parents used to make us read that every month and then gave us a written test on it. Carbon monoxide was a popular topic.

On Sunday night while I was reading your responses to my questions, I googled "carbon monoxide poisoning symptoms" and came across the story below at the Quota website. As soon as I read it I called the fire department at 10:30 at night for a carbon monoxide test and then called the oil company for service. Unwarranted panic or smart? I decided I'd rather be alive and look foolish.

This chilling story from the Quora website is long but a good cautionary tale about carbon monoxide:

My father and I went to our lake house to do some repairs and prepare for the next tenants one winter night. When we got to the house we found it was warm and realized the heat had been left on from the previous tenants over a week ago. Though we had planned to work on the house that night, we decided instead to rest and watch a movie. About 30 minutes into the movie, my father decided to go to bed. I fell asleep on the couch soon after, too tired to go to my bed. At the time this just seemed like a random decision, in hindsight there was much more to it.

I woke up because my heart was racing unnaturally fast and forceful, like nothing like I've ever felt, even with intense exercise. I had sweat through my clothes, and the cushions of the couch were completely saturated like a wet sponge. I suspected I had a severe flu. I called out to my father upstairs and he called back that he was getting out of bed but he never came after some time passed. I tried to get up to go to his room but my body felt too heavy. At some point I fell back asleep, but awoke again due to the same symptoms, and now when I called to my father there was no response. I forced myself up and made my way up the staircase which appeared distorted and eerie, like a haunted house, which I later found is a very common perception with carbon monoxide poisoning. I found my father lying unconscious on the bed.

After some difficulties and fumbling which are difficult to remember I luckily found his cell phone and called 9-1-1. I told the dispatcher that both my father and I might have the flu and that I thought I was having a panic attack because my heart was beating extremely fast. Carbon monoxide never crossed anyone's mind. I didn't know the exact address of our lake house, and I couldn't revive my father to ask him. She told me to take deep breaths, so I laid on the bed next to my father and controlled my breathing. With every breath I felt I was going deeper into a fog. My vision started to go black like when you stand up too fast. Up until this point I was panicked and hyperactive, but before going unconscious I do remember feeling a heavy sleepiness and calm.

I woke up to fire truck lights flashing and plain-clothed firemen in the bedroom shouting and opening the large glass sliding doors. Through the commotion, the word "carbon monoxide" struck me immediately and everything came together. I remember at that point I was soaking wet in sweat, my heart was beating rapidly, and I felt terrified, which I think is partially attributed to the confusion I was feeling. I also could not feel my body, and moving was very difficult. I was lying in bed moving my arms and legs around trying to feel any kind of sensation. My father was still unconscious on a stretcher and I was picked up and carried out.

In the ambulance my father woke up and was actually angry, insisting he was only asleep and he wanted to go back to bed. I remember that his face was unusually red, which I later found out was a symptom of carbon monoxide poisoning since carbon monoxide makes red blood cells more red than oxygen (meats are sometimes treated with carbon monoxide to appear brighter red). The paramedics explained to him that he was poisoned and that if I didn't call 9-1-1 we would have been dead within 30 minutes. They told us that the concentration of carbon monoxide in his bedroom was the highest they had ever seen, 1,000 ppm, measured after the windows were opened. For reference, allowable workplace levels are 25 ppm and levels of 1,600 cause death in 2 hours. The firemen also said they suspected it was carbon monoxide when the dispatcher told them there were two victims. I don't know why the dispatcher was not trained with this knowledge.

In the hospital, our oxygen saturation was critically low, and we were treated in hyperbaric oxygen chambers. The physician counseled me that carbon monoxide binds 240 times more strongly to red blood cells than oxygen, and used the metaphor that once carbon monoxide takes a seat on a bus it stays in its seat longer and there is one less seat for oxygen. Once the seats fill up with carbon monoxide, there will be no transport of oxygen to the tissues, particularly the brain and heart. This is why my heart was speeding up, as a last ditch effort to get whatever oxygen was left in my blood to my tissues. We were discharged after about one day when our oxygen saturation was at normal levels.

What I find unusual about carbon monoxide poisoning is that my father and I had very different reactions. My understanding of the event is clearer and more accurate than my fathers. He is elderly and fell asleep very deeply, and also woke up much more disoriented than I did. I, 25 at the time, was showing severe flu-like symptoms, and was waking up from sleep in a panic due to those symptoms. If not for my atypical reaction, without a doubt I would not be writing this today.

The reason the house filled with carbon monoxide is because there was a leak through the upstairs bathroom to the basement that corroded a hole into the furnace, which had been left on for an extended period. The batteries from the carbon monoxide detector were removed by the last tenant, likely because it was going off.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I owe you guys some more serious thanks for this thread. A couple of posters mentioned carbon monoxide early on and that made me understand the seriousness of my situation. Without that, I probably would have waited a few days to take action. My parents taught us kids about carbon monoxide poisoning when we were very young. Remember Family Safety magazine in the 1950s and 50s? My parents used to make us read that every month and then gave us a written test on it. Carbon monoxide was a popular topic.

On Sunday night while I was reading your responses to my questions, I googled "carbon monoxide poisoning symptoms" and came across the story below at the Quota website. As soon as I read it I called the fire department at 10:30 at night for a carbon monoxide test and then called the oil company for service. Unwarranted panic or smart? I decided I'd rather be alive and look foolish.

This chilling story from the Quora website is long but a good cautionary tale about carbon monoxide:

Did you have a Carbon Monoxide Alarm?

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Did you have a Carbon Monoxide Alarm?

Yup. One CO and two smoke alarms, recently replaced.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Yeah, I know. I was raised calling it a furnace regardless of the type of heat. Even in this thread people refer to it as a furnace. At some point someone usually corrects the terminology.

Not really a big deal, it just makes it harder to help when the terms get mixed. It's tough to remember to service them, I have two oil fired boilers in two homes. The company in Mass. sends me a card with a date on it every year. The lake house company doesn't, but they are good at getting it done when I call. I was late this year, got it done in late November. I usually try to get it done in August, they aren't busy then.

[SailinAway]

After two service calls, the smoky odor persists. What has been done so far:

• Annual tune-up (nozzle etc.)
• Reinforced flue pipe where it was corroded
• Resealed flue pipe connection to chimney
• Cleaned soot out of chimney cleanout door so the door would shut better
• Trimmed some kind of lining in the boiler that was bent wrong and was contacting the flame (sorry, I forget exactly what it was)
• Cleaned around the boiler cleanout panel
• Checked to make sure the chimney is not blocked
• Rechecked the first guy's work

The second technician confirmed that the odor is coming from the furnace/boiler/heating appliance. Parting words: "This should be much, much better."

Has anything been missed here?

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

After two service calls, the smoky odor persists. What has been done so far:

• Annual tune-up (nozzle etc.)
• Reinforced flue pipe where it was corroded
• Resealed flue pipe connection to chimney
• Cleaned soot out of chimney cleanout door so the door would shut better
• Trimmed some kind of lining in the boiler that was bent wrong and was contacting the flame (sorry, I forget exactly what it was)
• Cleaned around the boiler cleanout panel
• Checked to make sure the chimney is not blocked
• Rechecked the first guy's work

The second technician confirmed that the odor is coming from the furnace/boiler/heating appliance. Parting words: "This should be much, much better."

Has anything been missed here?

Smoke pipe should be replaced not fixed with metal tape. Yeah you can use it as an emergency patch, but it will burn off the glue and eventually fall off. Did they leave a copy of the combustion test from a print out from a printer? Obviously there's something still wrong. You maybe getting delayed ignition, which can be from a bad nozzle, wrong nozzle, or bad igniter. It can also be from a plugged fuel line, filter, or strainer. Have you been hitting the red reset button on the primary control?

[ITD]

Go watch it light off, make sure it's well lit, look for puffs of smoke when it lights. Also, hopefully they looked up the chimney for birds, nests, broken liner.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by ITD

Go watch it light off, make sure it's well lit, look for puffs of smoke when it lights. Also, hopefully they looked up the chimney for birds, nests, broken liner.

I can't really do anything myself with the furnace. I have zero knowledge of these things. The second guy said he put his hand in the chimney and saw light on his hand, thus it's not blocked. I asked if he used a mirror; he said no.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I can't really do anything myself with the furnace. I have zero knowledge of these things. The second guy said he put his hand in the chimney and saw light on his hand, thus it's not blocked. I asked if he used a mirror; he said no.

Just to be clear, by well lit, I mean shine a light on it to see if you can see smoke escaping somewhere when the fire lights.


Occasionally getting a whiff of smoke happens and usually isn't an issue. You have functioning smoke and co detectors so I wouldn't be too concerned. If you had a big problem those would be going off.

Also, fuel oil is pretty pungent. It takes only a little for it to smell. Put kitty litter or sand on any drips you see from the maintenance. Obviously make sure you don't have any leaks.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by ITD

Just to be clear, by well lit, I mean shine a light on it to see if you can see smoke escaping somewhere when the fire lights. Occasionally getting a whiff of smoke happens and usually isn't an issue. You have functioning smoke and co detectors so I wouldn't be too concerned. If you had a big problem those would be going off. Also, fuel oil is pretty pungent. It takes only a little for it to smell. Put kitty litter or sand on any drips you see from the maintenance. Obviously make sure you don't have any leaks.

It's not a whiff of smoke---it's enough that it's affecting the indoor air quality and I'm concerned about breathing it.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by ITD

Go watch it light off, make sure it's well lit, look for puffs of smoke when it lights. Also, hopefully they looked up the chimney for birds, nests, broken liner.

Good tips.

Also make sure exhaust is not getting sucked back into house.
How quick do you smell it? Is it near the boiler right after it fires up or does it take a while to smell it through out the house?

The oil burner draws in air. Quite a bit. It basically gets it through all the leaks in the house. If you have a leak near the top of chimney it can pull that exhaust back in. Try opening a window closest to boiler, shouldn’t need much, just a few inches. Does that stop the smell?

Also, like I said. A wet chimney is not good. It’s harder to get a draft going if it’s cold and wet. That can cause a poor start.

Might get a chimney guy out to inspect the chimney. Good idea to do once in while any way.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

How quick do you smell it? Is it near the boiler right after it fires up or does it take a while to smell it through out the house

I don't smell if right away. This morning it took about 30 to 45 minutes before I smelled it. First the odor comes to the top of the cellar stairs. Then it starts to flow throughout the downstairs. Just now I stuffed towels under the door from the cellarway. All of the windows in the cellar where the furnace is are sealed shut with foam.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Smoke pipe should be replaced not fixed with metal tape. Yeah you can use it as an emergency patch, but it will burn off the glue and eventually fall off. Did they leave a copy of the combustion test from a print out from a printer? Obviously there's something still wrong. You maybe getting delayed ignition, which can be from a bad nozzle, wrong nozzle, or bad igniter. It can also be from a plugged fuel line, filter, or strainer. Have you been hitting the red reset button on the primary control?

Yes, I agreed that the smoke pipe should be replaced now. Yes, they left a copy of the combustion test and said everything checked out fine. Two people have checked the work, so I assume the parts are the right ones. Thanks for the suggestion about the plugged fuel line, filter, and strainer. No, I haven't touched the reset button or anything else.

[Descant]

Glad it all worked out without major problems. Always great to have feedback after these discussions and hear about the solutions.

[WinnisquamZ]

But, once that oil smell gets into stuff it is so difficult to remove. Try lightning a candle or two. It’s a old oil painting trick


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[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

But, once that oil smell gets into stuff it is so difficult to remove. Try lightning a candle or two. It’s a old oil painting trick

The odor is in the air. I went away when I opened a window and a door to the outside. It returned when the furnace came on again.

[WinnisquamZ]

And you should be. I have a oil burner with forced hot water and never smell smoke or odor from it. Our understanding is you have had two different service companies in or is it two individuals from the same company?


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[WinnisquamZ]

Never one to spend someone else’s money, however, in this case I would call a different company. Tell theyou are looking for a solution to the problem you are experiencing and this is what has happened to date. Show them the service records from the first two technicians. Personally, I use Foley Oil and have been happy with them. Keep in touch


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[WinnisquamZ]

I know you said it is only 15 years old. Today’s boilers that’s a lifetime. We must also take into account its lack of yearly scheduled maintenance. Which will shorten its life. As I have said before, I hate to spend other’s money, but in this case I must.


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[mswlogo]

Chimney that old is probably not lined.
Even if it was, I bet it’s a mess, based on your history of “maintenance”

If you have CO detectors (I’d make sure you have a few) you can probably let it go until spring.

You can have an inner liner put in. You should probably do that regardless.
Not sure what was inspected where one person cut something away from the flame and yet didn’t see inside the boiler. You should replace the rotted pipes, tape might not be sealing good.

They should have taken the top off boiler and brushed out the heat exchanger. This is the longest part of the job. Messy too. And critical.

It’s common for bolts to rust up. They usually turn. If they snap, they can deal with it.

Sounds like you need a better service company.
When you said they tapped up the rotted holes on the flue pipe that was a red flag to me.

For the record my 1996 house needed work on the liner !!

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

If you have CO detectors (I’d make sure you have a few)

Thank you. I don't think that concept sunk in to OP.

[TheProfessor]

Post a picture of unit.
If unable to post a picture.
Post the name and model number of boiler/furnace.

[SailinAway]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
If you have CO detectors (I’d make sure you have a few)

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Thank you. I don't think that concept sunk in to OP.

Actually I've said a few times that I have a CO detector, up to date, and the fire department verified that the level of CO in the basement and the house is 0%.

[SailinAway]

Here are some photos. I have more if there's something specific you want to see. The service card is from the first technician. The second one didn't leave a service card.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Here are some photos. I have more if there's something specific you want to see. The service card is from the first technician. The second one didn't leave a service card.

That's not a combustion test! The only way for sure you know one was done is with a printout from the combustion analyzer. They shouldn't have had any issue opening that up. The HB Smith is cleaned from the side panel. Make sure the side plates are lined up properly. Lift up that side panel, turn the heat up all the way to fire the boiler, go down stairs in front of where the panel was, shut off the lights, and see if you can see any flame or light. It doesn't say what nozzle , filter , strainer, he used or anything he did. Did he actually brush the boiler pins, remove the smoke pipe, vacuum the breech and smoke pipe and inspect the chimney to make sure it wasn't blocked? there's no proof he did any of those things except what he told you.

[swnoel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VLp05Htzx8

[ITD]

That's a good boiler. Time to try another technician.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by ITD

That's a good boiler. Time to try another technician.

Good advice.

Over many decades, have had real good technicians do service/repairs wilst a few were absolutely useless.

Another way to check source.
Keep off for a long enough time to let all odors leave house.
Then turn on or up thermostat to on.
Start in basement and attempt to find where the odor is coming from.
If not in basement.
Do procedure again. Go to next floor and attempt to find where odor is coming from.
Maybe find a friend, neighbor, relative to help "sniffing".

On another note the Smith company no longer makes residential boilers.
LINK

There used to be some independent serivice people not affiliated with any oil/fuel company. Don't know of any right now.

.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

...There used to be some independent service people not affiliated with any oil/fuel company. Don't know of any right now.

Right. Al Terry and Heritage do a lot on TV. I've never used either of them. Angie's list probably has some local names, plumbers and HVAC folks who are not oil dealers.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Good advice.

Over many decades, have had real good technicians do service/repairs wilst a few were absolutely useless.

Another way to check source.
Keep off for a long enough time to let all odors leave house.
Then turn on or up thermostat to on.
Start in basement and attempt to find where the odor is coming from.
If not in basement.
Do procedure again. Go to next floor and attempt to find where odor is coming from.
Maybe find a friend, neighbor, relative to help "sniffing".

On another note the Smith company no longer makes residential boilers.
LINK

There used to be some independent serivice people not affiliated with any oil/fuel company. Don't know of any right now.

.

The second technician said the smell was coming from the boiler. He just couldn't figure out exactly where. There are independent service people. I just have no way of knowing their level of skill. I was asking about Roy Hubble. Does anyone know of him?

[Charlie T]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

The second technician said the smell was coming from the boiler. He just couldn't figure out exactly where. There are independent service people. I just have no way of knowing their level of skill. I was asking about Roy Hubble. Does anyone know of him?

It's taken me over 20 years but I've found a fabulous independent service tech. He formally worked for the company that installed my current Buderus Hi Eff boiler but has gone out on his own in the past year. This is the type of guy who fully understands the systems he works on and doesn't just change parts for a living. I strongly recommend him and would not let anyone else work on my heating system. He comes from Nashua but well worth the travel time and extra expense of that travel.

Jorge Sanchez
JLemosheating and AC
jorgesanchez15@msn.com
(603) 943-4535

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

The second technician said the smell was coming from the boiler. He just couldn't figure out exactly where. There are independent service people. I just have no way of knowing their level of skill. I was asking about Roy Hubble. Does anyone know of him?

The procedure would be the same whether it is you, a friend, or the up coming technician.

The metal exhaust vent going from boiler to chimney appears to have metal tape on it. Could be as simple as replacing that metal vent pipe.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

The procedure would be the same whether it is you, a friend, or the up coming technician.

The metal exhaust vent going from boiler to chimney appears to have metal tape on it. Could be as simple as replacing that metal vent pipe.

Haven't we covered that? Wouldn't exhaust gases set off the C O detector? Would the reading from the Fire Dept. still be 0%?

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

The procedure would be the same whether it is you, a friend, or the up coming technician.

The metal exhaust vent going from boiler to chimney appears to have metal tape on it. Could be as simple as replacing that metal vent pipe.

If everything is running normal, even if that pipe had holes in it, it would not smell. Ever see a draft balancer on an oil burner where it's not sealed around the damper. That doesn't have to be "air tight".

Now it may come out the holes if things are NOT running correctly.
The holes he had before the tape, didn't appear overnight, but his smell problem did, that should be a hint.

If the smell is coming from the furnace I suspect it's not firing up correctly.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

If everything is running normal, even if that pipe had holes in it, it would not smell. Ever see a draft balancer on an oil burner where it's not sealed around the damper. That doesn't have to be "air tight".

Now it may come out the holes if things are NOT running correctly.
The holes he had before the tape, didn't appear overnight, but his smell problem did, that should be a hint.

If the smell is coming from the furnace I suspect it's not firing up correctly.

You are correct... if it's a chimney there should be a negative draft in the smoke pipe. If he still smells oil or combustion there's still something wrong and needs to call the company and request someone else. I suspect nothing was done except for a filter and nozzle change.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by swnoel

You are correct... if it's a chimney there should be a negative draft in the smoke pipe. If he still smells oil or combustion there's still something wrong and needs to call the company and request someone else. I suspect nothing was done except for a filter and nozzle change.

So tell her who you work for and she will know what company to call for service.

[SailinAway]

I have two service calls on my bill now: annual cleaning plus 2nd visit when the smoke odor continued. Doesn't it seem like I should call back the same company and get them to fix the problem, instead of calling another company? And get the flue pipe replaced right away? I emailed the service manager a few days ago; no reply. I'll call again tomorrow.

[christo1]

Originally Posted by swnoel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VLp05Htzx8

I love watching this guy, the way he interacts with customers is priceless.

He seems to know his stuff too

[SailinAway]

I've received the bills for the two service calls, totaling $440. Here's what was done, according to the bills:

First call:

• Annual tuneup
• Nozzle
• Pump strainer
• Filter oil cartridge

Second call (2-hour labor charge):

• Checked chamber
• Cleaned out cover
• Trimmed blanket
• Replaced tank vial
• Sealed around reducer at chimney

Note that the problem reported both times was "smoke smell in house." $440 seems like a lot for an unsolved problem. My (uninformed) guess is that the problem is the smoke pipe. How much would it have cost if they only changed the smoke pipe?

[fatlazyless]

That exhaust is made with different steel stove pipe sections that fit together like a Lego and it usually will have some small leaks at the joints that can be tightened up using small sheet metal screws and/or high heat duct tape.

To check it for leaks around the seams, use a little dishwashing soap and water in a spritzer bottle and spray it on the vent pipe exhaust. Any soap bubbles forming and growing indicate a leak when the oil pump/electrode/nozzle/fan blower powers up the boiler.

Each stove pipe joint should go good with three small sheet metal screws and high heat duct tape to seal it up.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

That exhaust is made with different steel stove pipe sections that fit together like a Lego and it usually will have some small leaks at the joints that can be tightened up using small sheet metal screws and/or high heat duct tape.

To check it for leaks around the seams, use a little dishwashing soap and water in a spritzer bottle and spray it on the vent pipe exhaust. Any soap bubbles forming and growing indicate a leak when the oil pump/electrode/nozzle/fan blower powers up the boiler.

Each stove pipe joint should go good with three small sheet metal screws and high heat duct tape to seal it up.

Soap bubbles??? The chimney should have a negative draft not positive draft! If you don't you have a problem.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Soap bubbles??? The chimney should have a negative draft not positive draft! If you don't you have a problem.

Yes ..... true enough ..... negative draft ...... except with that 90-degree turn just close to the back of the boiler that creates an obstruction to the air flow from the blower fan and maybe some exhaust gets out. It already has duct tape on it so's that's probably a problem spot.

Hit it with more hi-heat duct tape and clean the outside so's the tape will stick, good.

[Jersey Bob]

Our previous (first house) had an oil fired steam boiler. The previous owner had a service contract with Company A. The first morning in the house we had no heat, called the company and they came out. They had already serviced the boiler that year before the start of the season. I don’t know how many times we had to call them that winter due to problems with the boiler. We might have kept them a second year, but it was a long time ago. I just don’t remember. We changed to Company B for service and oil. They would come at the beginning of the season, clean and service everything. When we moved out 14 years later, we still had the same boiler and never had to call for it having a problem. Oh, and it also provided the domestic hot water for the house, so it ran year round.
The difference was in the service company.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Yes ..... true enough ..... negative draft ...... except with that 90-degree turn just close to the back of the boiler that creates an obstruction to the air flow from the blower fan and maybe some exhaust gets out. It already has duct tape on it so's that's probably a problem spot.

Hit it with more hi-heat duct tape and clean the outside so's the tape will stick, good.

Just curious how long you were in the HVAC field? What blower fan are you talking about and what obstruction? I did this for years and am willing to learn from someone apparently with more expertise that I.

[fatlazyless]

The blower fan is an integral part of the gun that includes the motor, electrode, nozzle, oil pump, and fan.

The obstruction is that 90-degree vent pipe attached to the back of the boiler which force exhaust against the vent seam on the side. Vent pipe sections do not always make a tight fit and need three small sheet metal screws and hi-heat duct tape to seal it up. ......

I graduated from Fast Eddy's 12-Week School of Oil Burner Technology where the emphasis was all about doing it FAST ...... and ABLE to convince the customer that you know what the heck you are doing down in their basement with thaht olde oil burner because you got it done, FAST, and talked all about the fuel oil combustion/filthy dirty OIL soot build-up/electrode/nozzle/oil pump/fan blower, all synchronized together in perfect combustion harmony as you was hitting the oil burner with a FAST tune-up. ....

Steve Lavimoniere the oil burner man: North Dartmouth, Massachusetts; Sept 17, 2020 ..... www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T1s9JSHol4 ..... Smell ... ... of fumes coming from oil burner/water heat boiler

So, why do people go with natural gas by pipe or liquid propane in the tank when it costs more and has less btu's than residential fuel oil? Because it burns cleaner and usually needs way less service calls including no yearly boiler/furnace clean-out/tune-up.

[John Mercier]

On a boiler?
If I am next to my boiler, I can hear the draft down the flue... but I don't think that it is forced.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by swnoel

That's not a combustion test! The only way for sure you know one was done is with a printout from the combustion analyzer. They shouldn't have had any issue opening that up. The HB Smith is cleaned from the side panel. Make sure the side plates are lined up properly. Lift up that side panel, turn the heat up all the way to fire the boiler, go down stairs in front of where the panel was, shut off the lights, and see if you can see any flame or light. It doesn't say what nozzle , filter , strainer, he used or anything he did. Did he actually brush the boiler pins, remove the smoke pipe, vacuum the breech and smoke pipe and inspect the chimney to make sure it wasn't blocked? there's no proof he did any of those things except what he told you.

I think the checkmarks indicate most everything was done.
But yeah, they usually always state what nozzle they put in.
It’s very odd technician said bolts were to rusted to remove.
They typically don’t remove that large plate, just the burner.

Dead River is good and fairly good size. I’d ask for someone more serious.

How long was it not serviced for?
Maybe it was so plugged up that a standard cleaning isn’t getting it all out.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I think the checkmarks indicate most everything was done.
But yeah, they usually always state what nozzle they put in.
It’s very odd technician said bolts were to rusted to remove.
They typically don’t remove that large plate, just the burner.

Dead River is good and fairly good size. I’d ask for someone more serious.

How long was it not serviced for?
Maybe it was so plugged up that a standard cleaning isn’t getting it all out.

The check marks mean nothing without proof a combustion analyzer was used. The only way to prove it is to have a printout printed. I always left one at the customers and one attached to my paperwork. Having one can keep you out of court. I hate to say it, but most companies today are losing their most experienced techs due to retirement and burnout. I don't blame the homeowner for being upset... he should be!

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by swnoel

The check marks mean nothing without proof a combustion analyzer was used. The only way to prove it is to have a printout printed. I always left one at the customers and one attached to my paperwork. Having one can keep you out of court. I hate to say it, but most companies today are losing their most experienced techs due to retirement and burnout. I don't blame the homeowner for being upset... he should be!

That's great you do/did that but...

I've had 3 oil burners over 40 years and 5-ish oil companies and have never seen an analyzer printout. In fact, I don't believe any of them had the equipment to printout anything on site.

I'm not saying it's not a good thing to get, but I think you might have been a rare bird.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

That's great you do/did that but...

I've had 3 oil burners over 40 years and 5-ish oil companies and have never seen an analyzer printout. In fact, I don't believe any of them had the equipment to printout anything on site.

I'm not saying it's not a good thing to get, but I think you might have been a rare bird.

That's the difference between professional and non professional parts changers. I'm not aware of any large company that don't have them. What you've seen are the lazy technicians that don't care.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by swnoel

That's the difference between professional and non professional parts changers. I'm not aware of any large company that don't have them. What you've seen are the lazy technicians that don't care.

Dead River and Fred Fuller were two of them. Another was the company that Fred Fuller bought out which I can't remember their name. They all did perfectly fine and systems never failed. Couple old quacks now and then.

Rhymes just bought Fred Fuller.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Dead River and Fred Fuller were two of them. Another was the company that Fred Fuller bought out which I can't remember their name. They all did perfectly fine and systems never failed. Couple old quacks now and then.

Rhymes just bought Fred Fuller.

Did I misunderstand? I thought Fred Fuller took a lot of advance payments, then didn't deliver and then went out of business. Rymes (no 'h') took over to make good to people who were caught in the middle.
https://manchesterinklink.com/fred-f...es-bankruptcy/
Not really related to this thread, is it, since Fuller has been out of business for many years?

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Descant

Did I misunderstand? I thought Fred Fuller took a lot of advance payments, then didn't deliver and then went out of business. Rymes (no 'h') took over to make good to people who were caught in the middle.
https://manchesterinklink.com/fred-f...es-bankruptcy/
Not really related to this thread, is it, since Fuller has been out of business for many years?

When we moved in with my mom in 1996, she used Fred Fuller for oil (kerosene) and service. Technicians were great. After mom's passing in 2000, we continued with Fuller for years until they started having legal issues. We then changed over to Eastern. We already had Eastern for propane, and with the Our Town discount, things were great.

We have used Eastern technicians since the changeover and have been satisfied with their service.

Dave

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Dead River and Fred Fuller were two of them. Another was the company that Fred Fuller bought out which I can't remember their name. They all did perfectly fine and systems never failed. Couple old quacks now and then.

Rhymes just bought Fred Fuller.

I've had furnace cleanings from AD&G, Dead River, Kidder, and a small local company. I never saw or heard of these printouts.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I've had furnace cleanings from AD&G, Dead River, Kidder, and a small local company. I never saw or heard of these printouts.

In all our years with Fuller, every year we got a new large tag that had all the "pertinent info" handwritten on it. In the past year or two, Eastern has left a printout.

Dave

[WinnisquamZ]

Had a crack in my boiler about 10!years ago. Didn’t flood, just felt like a bath house minis the grape leaf’s


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[SteveO123]

Can we close this thread? Enough!

[John Mercier]

We have yet to hear the what the solution to the issue is.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

We have yet to hear the what the solution to the issue is.

I will update when I have a reply from the oil company. Can't do that if the thread is closed.

[SailinAway]

So, the oil company canceled the second bill and wanted to replace the smoke pipe for $300, which I think they should have done in the first place. I sort of lost my faith in that company and I think I'll look for someone else to do the work.