.... remove the railroad track .... build a walking/bicycle trail!

[fatlazyless]

Removing that Weirs Beach, single railroad track, that's about 9'6" wide with the wood RR-ties and replacing it with a 10-12' wide walking, running, and bicycling trail paved with gray stone dust gravel could really power-up both of these Winnipesaukee Pier and Winnipesaukee Marketplace building venues.

DPW and municipal trucks like fire rescue vehicles are all usually 8'-wide, and most public roads and interstate highways have lanes that are 12' wide so removing the very much under-used single RR-track and wood ties and replacing it with a gray granite stone dust gravel tourist/community trail would be a hugely welcome improvement to the Weirs waterfront area!

Here in 2021-central New Hampshire, everything gets moved by a car or a truck with black rubber, inflated tires, and nothing gets moved on the steel railroad rails, no more.

[Patofnaud]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Removing that Weirs Beach, single railroad track, that's about 9'6" wide with the wood RR-ties and replacing it with a 10-12' wide walking, running, and bicycling trail paved with gray stone dust gravel could really power-up both of these Winnipesaukee Pier and Winnipesaukee Marketplace building venues.

DPW and municipal trucks like fire rescue vehicles are all usually 8'-wide, and most public roads and interstate highways have lanes that are 12' wide so removing the very much under-used single RR-track and wood ties and replacing it with a gray granite stone dust gravel tourist/community trail would be a hugely welcome improvement to the Weirs waterfront area!

Here in 2021-central New Hampshire, everything gets moved by a car or a truck with black rubber, inflated tires, and nothing gets moved on the steel railroad rails, no more.

*groan* ack, please,,, no.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Removing that Weirs Beach, single railroad track, that's about 9'6" wide with the wood RR-ties and replacing it with a 10-12' wide walking, running, and bicycling trail paved with gray stone dust gravel could really power-up both of these Winnipesaukee Pier and Winnipesaukee Marketplace building venues.

DPW and municipal trucks like fire rescue vehicles are all usually 8'-wide, and most public roads and interstate highways have lanes that are 12' wide so removing the very much under-used single RR-track and wood ties and replacing it with a gray granite stone dust gravel tourist/community trail would be a hugely welcome improvement to the Weirs waterfront area!

Here in 2021-central New Hampshire, everything gets moved by a car or a truck with black rubber, inflated tires, and nothing gets moved on the steel railroad rails, no more.

Absolutely not.

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[fatlazyless]

Photographs .... http://www.americantrails.org/resour...r-fines-trails .... showing crushed granite stone dust gravel trails .... more natural looking and more water absorbent than paved black asphalt .... the way to do it with the Paugus Bay-Weirs Beach-Meredith Bay trail after removing those ugly, two steel rails and wood rr-ties.

That single railroad track that runs through the Weirs has become basically a total waste of a State of NH waterfront embankment. During the 2020-pandemic, the Winnipesaukee Rail Road scenic railroad car service was closed due to the confines of the railroad cars and the coronavirus. If that embankment had been a 12' wide granite gravel trail, it would have been used by many different trail-goers on foot, in running shoes, in wheel chairs, with walkers, on bicycles ..... regardless the pandemic .... as a go-to place to get away from the pandemic .... similar to a hiking trail.

With the railroad occupying the embankment, it has become an ugly, private property, under-used waterfront property. The lake belongs to the people of the State of NH, and the same should be true for what is now the railroad's embankment by removing the single rr-track and making it into a trail.

Remove that ugly old and totally UNUSED rr-track, and build it into a trail, 12' wide, made using small, fine, crushed gray granite paving gravel.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/sidewalk...ly-gravel-path

Ok ....... so, here's a question for Wednesday, January 6, 2021: What will be 12-feet wide, 9-miles long, paved with gray granite crushed stone, and run along the shoreline of Lake Winnipesaukee going from Laconia to Weirs Beach to Meredith?

[Patofnaud]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

During the 2020-pandemic, the Winnipesaukee Rail Road scenic railroad car service was closed due to the confines of the railroad cars and the coronavirus.

Untrue. I know, I used it a couple of times this year. Not everyone likes to walk trails, not everyone CAN walk trails. My grandson loved his train ride. This tearing down stuff because YOU do not use without regard for how others feel about it is getting old.

Anyways, this is not a rail-trail thread, back to your normal programming.

Great that Marketplace is getting a facelift. Kudos to EastCoast.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Photographs .... http://www.americantrails.org/resour...r-fines-trails .... showing crushed granite stone dust gravel trails .... more natural looking and more water absorbent than paved black asphalt .... the way to do it with the Paugus Bay-Weirs Beach-Meredith Bay trail after removing those ugly, two steel rails and wood rr-ties.

That single railroad track that runs through the Weirs has become basically a total waste of a State of NH waterfront embankment. During the 2020-pandemic, the Winnipesaukee Rail Road scenic railroad car service was closed due to the confines of the railroad cars and the coronavirus. If that embankment had been a 12' wide granite gravel trail, it would have been used by many different trail-goers on foot, in running shoes, in wheel chairs, with walkers, on bicycles ..... regardless the pandemic .... as a go-to place to get away from the pandemic .... similar to a hiking trail.

With the railroad occupying the embankment, it has become an ugly, private property, under-used waterfront property. The lake belongs to the people of the State of NH, and the same should be true for what is now the railroad's embankment by removing the single rr-track and making it into a trail.

Remove that ugly old and totally UNUSED rr-track, and build it into a trail, 12' wide, made using small, fine, crushed gray granite paving gravel.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/sidewalk...ly-gravel-path

Ok ....... so, here's a question for Wednesday, January 6, 2021: What will be 12-feet wide, 9-miles long, paved with gray granite crushed stone, and run along the shoreline of Lake Winnipesaukee going from Laconia to Weirs Beach to Meredith?

*Sigh* Not this again!
This issue with the WOW Trail, was put to bed in November 2019.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Sounds like a bargain price.

The #1 best way to improve this Winnipesaukee Marketplace, 21 Weeks St, Laconia location is to remove the adjacent, single railroad track and wood ties and replace it with a 12' wide, PUBLIC walking/running/bicycle trail, paved with gray granite, small crushed stone that goes from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith.

It could be a significant game changer for the Weirs Beach, Lakeside Ave area.

Suggest you go take a good look at the building and the location over on Google Map/Earth.

[Biggd]

Same @#$% over and over and over again!

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

The #1 best way to improve this Winnipesaukee Marketplace, 21 Weeks St, Laconia location is to remove the adjacent, single railroad track and wood ties and replace it with a 12' wide, PUBLIC walking/running/bicycle trail, paved with gray granite, small crushed stone that goes from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith.

It could be a significant game changer for the Weirs Beach, Lakeside Ave area.

Suggest you go take a good look at the building and the location over on Google Map/Earth.

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[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Same @#$% over and over and over again!

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For a business to succeed, it needs customers, and replacing that ugly, mostly not used single railroad track with a 9-mile long, walking-running-bicycle trail would bring a lot more people and customers to and through the Weirs, Lakeside Ave business area. Replacing the railroad track with a 12-foot wide, gray fine gravel trail, would be a big business boost to both the Winnipesaukee Marketplace, the Winnipesaukee Pier and other nearby business venues including the Mount Washington cruise ship.

Visitors could pedal a bicycle from Meredith to Weirs Beach to Lakeport, and return, and take a 2 1/2-hour cruise on the Mount Washington along the way to take a scenic lake boat tour in the middle of their bicycle pedal trek. Or, they can take a break from bicycling and hit The Dive for an hour, or something.

[garysanfran]

Without a bike, how do those folks with money in their pockets get from Meredith to The Weirs without the train? I've also seen people getting off the train at The Weirs and getting back on later for the trip back to where they came from.

The train is a bit of local scenic nostalgia that I love seeing go by when I'm in the boat exiting Weirs Channel into Paugus Bay. The train is on the right through a stretch with no houses and the entire train is visible...

[fatlazyless]

Well ...... the distance along the existing train track from Lakeport to Weirs Beach is about three miles, and from Weirs Beach to Meredith is about six miles. It runs alongside the lake shoreline for the most ways, is flat, level, and mostly straight with a few curves.

It is a single railroad track that has been in place since sometime like 1885.

99.5% or more of the time, it is totally empty of any railroad train, so it is almost totally unused.

The embankment shoreline land is owned by the State of New Hampshire and leased out to the Winnipesaukee Railroad, a warm weather, tourist railroad business that carries passengers out for a scenic railroad ride.

Without pedaling a bicycle, people can walk, wheel chair, ambulatory care walker, cross country ski or bypass the proposed new replacement trail and use a car to get from Meredith to Weirs Beach via Route 3.

This 12-foot wide, fine gray gravel trail could be built so it is two inches higher at the center line, a trail crest or high area, for best drainage of rainfall and snow melt.

Pedaling a bicycle and walking are the primary use on what would be a two-way, 12'-wide, gray fine small gravel trail with NO motorized vehicles allowed except for the dpw, police and fire.

[Top-Water]

Same @#$% over and over and over again!

[Blyblvrd]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

For a business to succeed, it needs customers, and replacing that ugly, mostly not used single railroad track with a 9-mile long, walking-running-bicycle trail would bring a lot more people and customers to and through the Weirs, Lakeside Ave business area. Replacing the railroad track with a 12-foot wide, gray fine gravel trail, would be a big business boost to both the Winnipesaukee Marketplace, the Winnipesaukee Pier and other nearby business venues including the Mount Washington cruise ship.

Visitors could pedal a bicycle from Meredith to Weirs Beach to Lakeport, and return, and take a 2 1/2-hour cruise on the Mount Washington along the way to take a scenic lake boat tour in the middle of their bicycle pedal trek. Or, they can take a break from bicycling and hit The Dive for an hour, or something.

The best way for this forum to succeed is to remove FLL from it.


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[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Blyblvrd

The best way for this forum to succeed is to remove FLL from it.


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That's a little extreme, don't you think?
He's harmless, he just litters the forum with nonsense. You don't have to read it.

[Charlie T]

Originally Posted by Blyblvrd

The best way for this forum to succeed is to remove FLL from it.


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

It seems to me this forum is pretty damn sucessful, thanks to Don's unwavering efforts. FLL though mostly spewing nonsense is pretty harmless, his posts do offer a lighthearted view of things. As others have said, if you don't want to read his post's........ DON"T

Charlie T

[garysanfran]

The trend today is to stamp out diversity of opinion. You have an opinion opposite mine? You must be wrong. You must be removed!

This site would be boring without diversity of opinion. And it is true, some division is destructive and some constructive. Chose wisely.

FLL is a neighbor of mine. DO I want him removed?

Nope!

[Blyblvrd]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

The trend today is to stamp out diversity of opinion. You have an opinion opposite mine? You must be wrong. You must be removed!

Well that escalated pretty quickly! It was intended to be a sarcastic joke, my apologies if it offended anyone. I posted my comment not because I disagree with his opinion, I have no opinion on this topic, but because the same rhetoric over and over, personal statements that don’t ever really seem to add to the narrative of the forum topic, are getting old for me. It’s just my opinion. I’ll return to my usual practice of taking a break from this forum until my batteries are recharged and I can read what I love about Winni and scroll past FLL’s comments.


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[Blyblvrd]

Originally Posted by Charlie T

It seems to me this forum is pretty damn sucessful, thanks to Don's unwavering efforts. FLL though mostly spewing nonsense is pretty harmless, his posts do offer a lighthearted view of things. As others have said, if you don't want to read his post's........ DON"T

Charlie T

Agree on all points.


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[Descant]

Originally Posted by Blyblvrd

Well that escalated pretty quickly! It was intended to be a sarcastic joke, my apologies if it offended anyone. I posted my comment not because I disagree with his opinion, I have no opinion on this topic, but because the same rhetoric over and over, personal statements that don’t ever really seem to add to the narrative of the forum topic, are getting old for me. It’s just my opinion. I’ll return to my usual practice of taking a break from this forum until my batteries are recharged and I can read what I love about Winni and scroll past FLL’s comments.


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

1. If you don't like somebody's posts, you can block them. If it is an important post, the next reader will likely quote it ad you can read it there as something that has been vouched for by another reader as being worthy.
2. I too, have made what I thought were amusing or sarcastic remarks and resulted in the next several posters bringing the wrath of Khan down upon me. When you make such a post, include (LOL) at the end so the illiterates who take everything literally and seriously, will understand (LOL).

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by Blyblvrd

Well that escalated pretty quickly! It was intended to be a sarcastic joke, my apologies if it offended anyone. I posted my comment not because I disagree with his opinion, I have no opinion on this topic, but because the same rhetoric over and over, personal statements that don’t ever really seem to add to the narrative of the forum topic, are getting old for me. It’s just my opinion. I’ll return to my usual practice of taking a break from this forum until my batteries are recharged and I can read what I love about Winni and scroll past FLL’s comments.


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Do not leave...Your opinions are very welcome in the spirit of shared cohesion. Our country is very divided and we need a Statesman approach to this divisiveness.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Sounds like a bargain price.

Someone here must have the 'puter skills to post some good photos here from Google Maps/Earth for that Winnipesaukee Marketplace at 21 Weeks St to show why it probably got sold for what seems like a low price at $250,000.

Looking at the layout for this location, it seems to have some very wackadoozie access issues with that single railroad track, the overhead pedestrian foot bridge, and visibility from Lakeside Ave. It adds up to a business impossible situation, here, there, at 21 Weeks St ....... that Winnipesaukee Marketplace location is just totally doomed by the railroad track being there.

Once upon a time, many many years ago, that single railroad track was probably the source for many customers to this 21 Weeks St building for wharever type of retail use, it had. With basically NO TRAINS on the railroad track, there are NO CUSTOMERS for that Winnipesaukee Marketplace building (period!) coming in or as not seen by a potential customer on Lakeside Ave.

[BrunoSR]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Someone here must have the 'puter skills to post some good photos here from Google Maps/Earth for that Winnipesaukee Marketplace at 21 Weeks St to show why it probably got sold for what seems like a low price at $250,000.

Looking at the layout for this location, it seems to have some very wackadoozie access issues with that single railroad track, the overhead pedestrian foot bridge, and visibility from Lakeside Ave. It adds up to a business impossible situation, here, there, at 21 Weeks St ....... that Winnipesaukee Marketplace location is just totally doomed by the railroad track being there.

Once upon a time, many many years ago, that single railroad track was probably the source for many customers to this 21 Weeks St building for wharever type of retail use, it had. With basically NO TRAINS on the railroad track, there are NO CUSTOMERS for that Winnipesaukee Marketplace building (period!) coming in or as not seen by a potential customer on Lakeside Ave.

Any reason to take a shot at the railroad??

I know the folks at Flight Craft, they are smart and great folks. I am sure they know what they are doing and the RR won't hinder them at all.

[SAMIAM]

FLL is an interesting guy. He does make lots of eccentric and rambling posts but on the rare occasion that he is serious his posts are well researched and intelligent. Also, he never takes offense when someone makes fun of him and I don't ever recall an angry response directed at anyone.
Just my .02

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

FLL is an interesting guy. He does make lots of eccentric and rambling posts but on the rare occasion that he is serious his posts are well researched and intelligent. Also, he never takes offense when someone makes fun of him and I don't ever recall an angry response directed at anyone.
Just my .02

Quite true.

However, there are sometimes that wherever FLL writes his posts, there seems to be an echo, echo, echo, echo-o-o-o within the same thread.

Dave

[thinkxingu]

I find it takes less effort to scroll past what I don't want to read than to complain about it.

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[phoenix]

there are some other posters that have different posts but this should be open to all. With the exception of vitriolic posts. Keep them coming FLL and agree with Bob you have some good posts and some longer " different ones" . each of us should decide what we want to read. Don of course moderates the offensive ones. I have been on this forum a long time and it gives me insight and chuckles at times. Since I am only at the lake a few months a year this forum keeps me wanting to come back again

[Denis D]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

FLL is an interesting guy. He does make lots of eccentric and rambling posts but on the rare occasion that he is serious his posts are well researched and intelligent. Also, he never takes offense when someone makes fun of him and I don't ever recall an angry response directed at anyone.
Just my .02

I've often thought that FLL has everyone fooled and is probably a brilliant Ivy league college professor who took some acting classes and uses the forum to practice his skills

That said, I enjoy reading most of his posts.

[fatlazyless]

Thanks for all your forum support ...... is totally great to be here in central New Hampshire and the Winnipesaukee Forum is more fun than a six-pak of Guinness dark in those lovely 16-oz bottles ..... here-here!

So what's the lastest with someone going to Google Maps/Earth and posting some excellent quality photos showing the wackadoozie location and the wackadoozie access and the wackadoozie design for this Winnipesaukee Marketplace building at 21 Weeks St that recently got sold to Flightcraft for $250,000?

....... helloooooo garysanfran ........ you did a super excellent job with those big, up close railroad photos!

[Crusty]

It just occurred to me that FLL could be considered as the "railroad track" cluttering our view of the forum. Perhaps he could be replaced with some nicely-graded 'gray granite stone dust gravel'. Of course, this would just validate his point of view, so please ignore the recommendation. :-)

[Trail Goer]

FLL is going to be sad to learn that the "seldom used and ugly railroad tracks" that he has referenced over and over, could very well see and uptick in traffic in the foreseeable future, and I'm not talking about the scenic railroad operations either. I'm talking about that tiny little freight railroad, call New England Southern, who holds freight rights on those same tracks and is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Vermont Rail System (VTR). They've already signed on a new customer, who will be shipping 40 car trains of aggregates 3 to 4 days a week, out of Tilton, NH. Last I heard, they are hoping to get those trains rolling by the end of this summer. With VTR, aggressively pursuing other potential customers north of the lake and with CSX, looking to purchase Pan Am Railways. NH will have direct access to a Class I railroad for first time. That will improve shipping rates and over all transit times, while eliminating a middle party from the picture. For once in many, many decades, this state will start to look attractive to potential businesses, if that purchase gets approved by Surface Transportation Board.

[Top-Water]

Originally Posted by Crusty

It just occurred to me that FLL

Are you sure its not Choo Choo Charlie.

[steve-on-mark]

Originally Posted by Top-Water

Are you sure its not Choo Choo Charlie.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ExSlyoVTX3I" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Charlie says " love my Walmart noodles..."

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[fatlazyless]

For a freight railroad to be successful it needs regular customers like shipping Wyoming coal to an Alabama coal burning, electric power plant by railroad freight train on a regular weekly freight run.

Almost all freight goes on a truck over the highway system.

About one hour north on Mt Washington, the Cog RR tried running a ski train for skiing on Mt Washington, www.nelsap.org/nh/cog.html in the winter of 2005-2006.

How's about a ski train to bring Boston skiers to Gunstock for the weekend? I don't think that would work. Here in New Hampshire, freight goes by truck and people go by car or bus.

www.thecog.com is a very happening New Hampshire passenger railroad.

With no passengers, no freight, and no trains, that single railroad track that runs from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith is just taking up space on the 9-mile lake waterfront shoreline embankment.

[tis]

I would love to see the railroads come back. It would save a lot of truck traffic on the roads and since the US is losing so many drivers to retirement, tough regulations, etc.it would help solve that problem. Lots of things could be hauled by carload to NH other than dirt. Lumber is one that comes to mind. Furniture, lots of big items.

[fatlazyless]

One hundred years ago, in 1921, the railroad was very big in New Hampshire with many more miles of railroad track than today.

Maybe the State of NH would consider to relocate this unused Winnipesaukee railroad track away from the shoreline, and out through the backwoods in Belmont, Sanbornton, and New Hampton out somewhere behind the west side of Lake Winnisquam.

So, what is the highest and best use for this 9-mile shoreline railroad right-of-way built in 1885? Is it an unused single railroad track or a community walking, running, and bicycling trail paved with fine, small, gray granite small gravel, 12' wide?

Here's a rail trail, work in progress about 35-miles to the south .... www.concordlakesunapeerailtrail.com ..... Concord, Hopkinton, Warner, Bradford, and Newbury, NH

[Onshore]

The Weirs as a vacation destination exists because of the railroad. Members of various social and religious organizations with members that lived in southern NH, MA and beyond built small vacation communities there because their members could arrive by train. If you really want the re-invigorate the Weirs you might be better served to restore rail service in the Boston - Tilton corridor rather than remove the Meredith - Laconia link.

[fatlazyless]

Here's the http://www.conwayscenic.com/excursio...tash-mountain/, CSRX-a 51-mile scenic excursion running on a track, abandoned by the B&M in September 1972, through North Conway, Intervale, Bartlett, Hart's Location, Crawford Notch, and Bretton Woods.

Passengers typically park their automobiles at the North Conway train station parking lot and board the train for a round trip, scenic excursion.

Conway Scenic is currently running a 90-minute winter snow train excursion, running from North Conway to Attitash Mountain in Bartlett with prices starting at $32-coach seating.

Well behaved dogs on a leash are permitted in the coach class, but are not allowed in first class or in premium class, with a limit of one dog per passenger, service dogs excluded from these limits ..... woof-woof-woof ...... arrroooooo!

[jbolty]

Originally Posted by Onshore

The Weirs as a vacation destination exists because of the railroad. Members of various social and religious organizations with members that lived in southern NH, MA and beyond built small vacation communities there because their members could arrive by train. If you really want the re-invigorate the Weirs you might be better served to restore rail service in the Boston - Tilton corridor rather than remove the Meredith - Laconia link.

I tend to agree with FLL. No one is traveling by train to weirs beach. After playing skee ball for 10 minutes what else is there to do there? The train is kind of neat but I would see a lot more people walking, biking or snowmobiling between the towns and maybe having lunch or dinner and for a much longer season

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by jbolty

I tend to agree with FLL. No one is traveling by train to weirs beach. After playing skee ball for 10 minutes what else is there to do there? The train is kind of neat but I would see a lot more people walking, biking or snowmobiling between the towns and maybe having lunch or dinner and for a much longer season

I enjoy taking my grand children on a train ride along the lake every summer. Would I walk it, probably not.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by jbolty

I tend to agree with FLL. No one is traveling by train to weirs beach. After playing skee ball for 10 minutes what else is there to do there? The train is kind of neat but I would see a lot more people walking, biking or snowmobiling between the towns and maybe having lunch or dinner and for a much longer season

I would think the owners of the the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad might not agree with you as far as ridership.. I'm sure if there were not enough passengers each season to support the expenses and turn a profit they would not continue to operate the train.

[fatlazyless]

With all the hilly roads, automobile traffic on the roads, and non-existent shoulder areas next to the roadways, a mostly flat 9-mile lakeside walking and bicycle trail would be an incredibly super-duper, totally fantastic incentive for people to go pedal a bicycle ride.

Having a great place to go bicycling would just totally hit-the-spot for the lakes region residents and visitors! ...

[jetskier]

This is the quote from Ben Clark in terms of the Hobo and Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroads...note that it is pre-COVID:

Clark said his railroad provides $100,000 per year in fees to the state. This figure is 10 percent of ticket sales of about $1 million annually.

In addition, New Hampshire Southern Railroad has a federal common carrier license to use the tracks for freight, which it does in the fall and spring outside of tourist season.

This is the position of NH DOT on the matter:

The removal of the rail line in an active rail corridor is contrary to state law (RSA 228:60-a) and would physically separate the line and points north of Laconia would be isolated from the general railway system. As a reminder, the entirety of the line is actively used by two railroad operators that provide tourist excursion and freight railroad service. This resolution would have a negative impact on both services.

On a another subject, while FLL is certainly entitled to his opinion, I personally find that when he hijacks threads it dilutes the discussion and creates unnecessary distractions...Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I enjoy taking my grand children on a train ride along the lake every summer.

What a great grandparent that you are.

Those children will always remember you for this. Embedded memories of happiness.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by jetskier

This is the quote from Ben Clark in terms of the Hobo and Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroads...note that it is pre-COVID:

Clark said his railroad provides $100,000 per year in fees to the state. This figure is 10 percent of ticket sales of about $1 million annually.

In addition, New Hampshire Southern Railroad has a federal common carrier license to use the tracks for freight, which it does in the fall and spring outside of tourist season.

This is the position of NH DOT on the matter:

The removal of the rail line in an active rail corridor is contrary to state law (RSA 228:60-a) and would physically separate the line and points north of Laconia would be isolated from the general railway system. As a reminder, the entirety of the line is actively used by two railroad operators that provide tourist excursion and freight railroad service. This resolution would have a negative impact on both services.

On a another subject, while FLL is certainly entitled to his opinion, I personally find that when he hijacks threads it dilutes the discussion and creates unnecessary distractions...Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

Not to mention there were two studies done in regards to the railroad and rail trail, one omitted info that supported the railroad to try and sell the trail as the better option. The new mayor of Laconia (before becoming mayor) was made aware of the 2nd study and asked for some time to look over that 2nd study. Fast forward to his first meeting as mayor, the removal rail in favor of the trail was dropped and a "Blue Ribbon" committee (that contains members from all interested parties including the railroad), was created to find an alternate way to build phase 3 of the WOW Trail. Case in point the railroad isn't going anywhere and as I already pointed out, there may be and uptick of rail traffic heading to points north of the lake in the foreseeable future. Tilton south, is going to see an uptick later this year with trains, 40 cars long, 3 to 4 days a week.

[garysanfran]

I'd love to take a train to Boston. I'd use it. I took Amtrak from San Francisco (Emeryville) to Boston a couple years ago in a private roomette. Loved it. Met some great people and saw some great scenery.

[Woodsy]

From what I understand, it would cost $5M+ to build alongside the RR tracks from Lakeport to Weirs, not counting whatever the Southdown resistance would add to the price tag. So of course the folks like FLL and the owners of Patrick's Pub want the RR gone.


I am glad to hear the RR is getting some new customers! Now if we could just get them to run an old Steam train once in awhile!

Woodsy

[jbolty]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I would think the owners of the the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad might not agree with you as far as ridership.. I'm sure if there were not enough passengers each season to support the expenses and turn a profit they would not continue to operate the train.

Whether they are making a profit or not it is an asset that is far underused.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

From what I understand, it would cost $5M+ to build alongside the RR tracks from Lakeport to Weirs, not counting whatever the Southdown resistance would add to the price tag. So of course the folks like FLL and the owners of Patrick's Pub want the RR gone.


I am glad to hear the RR is getting some new customers! Now if we could just get them to run an old Steam train once in awhile!

Woodsy

Hi Woodsy,

The $5M figure is based on replacing the existing railbed with a trail (ie. rails to trails) the cost to build next to the existing railbed is much much higher - approximately $25M for the section from Lakeport to Weirs.

Jetskier

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

What a great grandparent that you are.

Those children will always remember you for this. Embedded memories of happiness.

They are all under 7 right now. I figure I have about another 5 years of train rides and then they'll be done.
I've already started them on hiking. So hopefully that will take over for the train rides as they get older.

[garysanfran]

The parking lot in back of Tower Hill has been full the last few times I was there and The Weathervane (Lobster in-the-Rough) was closed all summer, so that attraction was not in business.

I would imagine there are some that would like to see "The Mount" go away and create more docking.

I like little trips into the past...

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by Biggd

They are all under 7 right now. I figure I have about another 5 years of train rides and then they'll be done.
I've already started them on hiking. So hopefully that will take over for the train rides as they get older.

Until that is, they become grandparents and begin to enjoy train rides again

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by jbolty

Whether they are making a profit or not it is an asset that is far underused.

So I can gage what you consider to be an under used asset vs quality used asset, answer these questions: what is leading you to believe it's an under used asset? what would need to be done differently to make it a useful asset? Let's go north for comparison, do you think the line the Conway Scenic operates on (also a state owned rail line), is an under used asset?

[TheTimeTraveler]

Discuss as we wish, but like it or not the railroad, and the railroad tracks are here to stay. Railroad lines fall under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government, and a process is in place for the official abandonment of any rail line. Petitions for abandonment can not (and will not) be considered as long as there is existing passenger or freight usage (which in this case there is).

All across America there are railroad tracks going thru various locations that were once considered very rural. Here we are 140 years later, and many of these once rural places (such as the line we are discussing) have become developed and more importantly FAR MORE VALUABLE in terms of dollars and potential other developmental uses.

Simply put, many rail lines running through cities in the United States have skyrocketed in value just because of their existing easements and locations. New rail lines would NEVER be allowed in these valuable locations today, but because they pre-exist they are left alone. Imagine in 2021 someone proposing a rail line running from Alton Bay to the Weirs along the waterfront? No way today, but back in 1880 that was perfectly acceptable, and the land wasn't nearly as valuable.

Think about it; if the concept of abandoning rail lines to pursue other (and maybe better) uses were allowed, then this would be happening all over the United States as communities and folks see fit. It's not going to happen as long as the Interstate Commerce Commission regulates the Railroads.

[garysanfran]

This has been discussed before, but there are more home owners in the Region now and fewer percentage of visiting renters.

The homeowners have done these things many times. And just don't do them much on a continuing basis. The economy once thrived on the "vacationers". Could this come back?

I can imagine a nice 1st class train from South Station to a gorgeous brand new resort with a great view at the top of Tower Hill next to Cumberland Farms in that huge empty piece of land with a fantastic view and location. Could walk to the Weirs for the train or Mount. Sit out the afternoon on the deck at Anthony's or The Dive. I think spending a day at The Weirs would be a fun. Spend the night and spend some money then get back on the train and the rest of the week is mine!

[Descant]

Eisenhower took his experience in Europe and pushed for the Intestate highway system. This led to suburban sprawl and overuse of fossil fuels for cars that we are now trying to eliminate. At the same time, tourists to Europe brag about the great rail systems and how efficient/convenient it is. Hmmm. Been to Disney World lately? Fly in, shuttle and bus to the hotel, tram/monorail, train, boat to the Magic Kingdom, etc. Masters at integrated transportation. Of course, highways are government subsidized, as the US government subsidizes highways. In a smarter world, we would have a more integrated transportation system.
The trains came to the Weirs because there were hotels/veteran facilities. If rail transport is to come back, other than an afternoon ride, we need destination hotels, casinos. etc. The Weirs needs a bigger definition than just a few hundred yards on Lakeside Avenue.
In any event, for the taxpayers to give up a tax paying entity and spend $MM so people can hike a mile or less, is just plain foolish. I know, I know, there's no cost. The Government pays for it.

[fatlazyless]

Clark's Bears in Lincoln/Woodstock has their www.whitemountaincentralrr.com which has a 1943 GE 65-ton diesel locomotive that was used by the Newport, Rhode Island railroad as well as a fantastic Climax steam locomotive that huffs and puffs big black smoke and hot white steam www.clarksbears.com/attractionsTrain.php and goes choo-choo-choo ..... which is one hell of an incredible old steam loco!

What you will NEVER see running along the Winnipesaukee Railroad is a steam locomotive, nor the Clark's Wolfman, either, just won't be happening here. For a FUN train ride, you need to go up to Lincoln and visit Clark's Bears, or go to Thompson and Meserve's Purchase at the western base of Mt Washington to ride www.thecog.com which is a truly astounding train ride up and down Mt Washington.

Riding this Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad www.hoborr.com/winnipesaukee-scenic-railroad/ is about as interesting as eating a day old, stale doughnut and falling asleep ........ it is unbelievably and totally BORING and the passenger coaches smell funny ...... what's that smell? ....... did someone take a flock of sheep on this train, or what? ....... t-t-trust me on that! ....

Is much better to remove these nine miles of basically never-ever used steel tracks and wood ties and build a 12-foot wide, soft gravel, rail trail designed for walking and riding a bicycle.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Clark's Bears in Lincoln/Woodstock has their www.whitemountaincentralrr.com which has a 1943 GE 65-ton diesel locomotive that was used by the Newport, Rhode Island railroad as well as a fantastic Climax steam locomotive that huffs and puffs big black smoke and hot white steam www.clarksbears.com/attractionsTrain.php and goes choo-choo-choo ..... which is one hell of an incredible old steam loco!

What you will NEVER see running along the Winnipesaukee Railroad is a steam locomotive, nor the Clark's Wolfman, either, just won't be happening here. For a FUN train ride, you need to go up to Lincoln and visit Clark's Bears, or go to Thompson and Meserve's Purchase at the western base of Mt Washington to ride www.thecog.com which is a truly astounding train ride up and down Mt Washington.

Riding this Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad www.hoborr.com/winnipesaukee-scenic-railroad/ is about as interesting as eating a day old, stale doughnut and falling asleep ........ it is unbelievably and totally BORING and the passenger coaches smell funny ...... what's that smell? ....... did someone take a flock of sheep on this train, or what? ....... t-t-trust me on that! ....

Is much better to remove these nine miles of basically never-ever used steel tracks and wood ties and build a 12-foot wide, soft gravel, rail trail designed for walking and riding a bicycle.

I disagree! While I'm a big fan of reviving non used railroad beds for rail trails. I'm against closing any tracks that still are being used by a business just to provide a place for you to walk and bike ride.
If there comes a day that the scenic railroad is no longer a viable business then that will be the time to look at building a rail trail.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I disagree! While I'm a big fan of reviving non used railroad beds for rail trails. I'm against closing any tracks that still are being used by a business just to provide a place for you to walk and bike ride.
If there comes a day that the scenic railroad is no longer a viable business then that will be the time to look at building a rail trail.

What if--just for discussion purposes--the business was serving 100 people per day, and a bike path would serve 500?

I don't know the "market" for a bike path in the area, but the bike path on the Cape does a HUGE amount of traffic, and serves up riders to plenty of businesses on the side. Way more than a RR ever would.

[jbolty]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

So I can gage what you consider to be an under used asset vs quality used asset, answer these questions: what is leading you to believe it's an under used asset? what would need to be done differently to make it a useful asset? Let's go north for comparison, do you think the line the Conway Scenic operates on (also a state owned rail line), is an under used asset?

I have no ax to grind against the railroad and it's kind of a nice attraction but I think public property should be used for the benefit the greatest number of people. The train goes back and forth a couple times per day and for the other 20 hours nothing uses it. If people staying in Meredith or Weirs could walk or bike or shuttle back and forth some way without a car it would benefit both and could be four seasons. With most of the lake front being private it would be great to have a path along the water and maybe there are a couple of leases given out for a snack bar along the way. I know it's not going to happen any time soon , if ever, but just seems like such a better use of the right of way. Not to mention there are hardly any roads in the area with a shoulder safe enough to walk or bike on and we can all use more exercise.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by jbolty

I have no ax to grind against the railroad and it's kind of a nice attraction but I think public property should be used for the benefit the greatest number of people. The train goes back and forth a couple times per day and for the other 20 hours nothing uses it. If people staying in Meredith or Weirs could walk or bike or shuttle back and forth some way without a car it would benefit both and could be four seasons. With most of the lake front being private it would be great to have a path along the water and maybe there are a couple of leases given out for a snack bar along the way. I know it's not going to happen any time soon , if ever, but just seems like such a better use of the right of way. Not to mention there are hardly any roads in the area with a shoulder safe enough to walk or bike on and we can all use more exercise.

Who says the Railroad right of way is "Public Property" ? Granted, it is owned by the State, but that does not mean anyone can use. Quite the contrary.....

You are not allowed to walk on Interstate 93 (public property), and you're not allowed to legally walk on a Railroad easement.

[Trail Goer]

The state owns an active railroad line, its not public property. The sole purpose of purchasing the rail line from the railroad, was to protect it and keep it open as a railroad corridor. In the 1970's, there was a series of washouts that occurred along the line and with the B&M in bankruptcy, couldn't afford to fix them, so the line was embargoed with active shippers still requiring the services of the railroad. So, the state stepped in and purchased it from the B&M, made the necessary repairs and leased it out to an operator, as required by federal law (the states purchase of this line had to be approve by then Interstate Commerce Commission). Fast-forward to the 1980's the state took bids for an operator to operate passenger service out of Lincoln, NH the Clark family (same family the owns Clarks Bears) submitted a bit and won, several years later they were invited to bid on the section along the lake and that where we are today. The freight operator is Vermont Rail System's, New England Southern Railroad and they are looking to grow the business and the passenger operator is Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad.

[Descant]

The RR generates some tax revenue for NH and maintains the rail bed. Hikers and bikers want you and me to pay for their recreation facility, same as kayakers and canoes or rowboats want power boaters to pay for keeping the lakes healthy and launch ramps that they can use for free. Hiking trails require maintenance--it's great that the dues paying members of the Appalachian Mountain Club and similar organizations foot the bill so everybody else can hike for free. (NH does collect $$ at the parking areas, and $5 for the shuttle bus on I-93 in Franconia)
Snowmobile Clubs do a great job maintaining trails where folks hike for free in the summer. All you snowmobilers: when was the last time you got a thank you note from a hiker?

[fatlazyless]

From the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad website, here's a map ..... www.hoborr.com/map/ ...... showing their 9-mile route from Laconia to Weirs Beach to Meredith as it runs along the shoreline of Paugus Bay, Weirs Bay, and Meredith Bay.

Here's what looks like a two person bicycle style pedal cart that rolls over the tracks on four railroad wheels; a railroad pedal wagon, or something? Maybe it is a four person, pedal cart?

Rail bike adventures: www.hoborr.com/rail-bike-adventures/ ...... so, how about this? ....... never seen one of these rail-pedal-carts before?

Today is January 21, 2021 and there is little to no snow on these train tracks right now, plus there has not been a train on the tracks for many months, like since June, 2020. If it were a 12'-wide, soft gravel rail trail, it could have been used by the public for walking and bicycling all these many months during the pandemic.

As it is now, it's a TOTALLY unused single railroad track! .....
.....................

Here's a similar rail-cart-pedal venue ..... http://www.essexsteamtrain.com/exper.../rail-bike-2/# ...... from Essex, Connecticut which has more information about these new-fangled pedal carts.

These carts remind me of that old Wile E Coyote cartoon where the coyote gets run over by a railroad utility cart, or something? So, what happens when you meet another pedal cart that's coming the other way, directly down the rails into your cart ...... ha-ha-ha? .....

So's ...... it's probably a very good thing there's no REAL freight or passenger trains on this track otherwise these rail-pedal-carts could have a very large problem ......... sneer-sneer-sneer--!

[mishman]

Hesitant to wade into these shark infested waters but how many of these commenters have been on a well maintained bicycle trail in a tourism hot spot like our lake?
I admit that I don't know the number of train riders but I would wager many, many times more people (locals and tourists) would use the trail for hiking and cycling than train riders. These bike trails generate lots of tourism dollars as people want healthy forms of recreation. You can see it all around the country.
I have ridden bike trails in FL, on the west coast and principally in New England. Almost without exception, businesses along rail trails love the business these trails generates. Cyclists and walkers stop for refreshments, meals, a beer (or two) and come back again and again. Cycling is easy on the joints and I know many cyclists in their 70s who easily do 20 miles daily (especially along rail trails with their modest grade changes).
I would like to see trail accommodate more people than the limited numbers of train riders - and I have nothing against trains. It is simply a matter of highest and best use of this corridor. Hands down it is for people powered transport.
Well, I guess there is blood in the water now

[jbolty]

Originally Posted by mishman

Hesitant to wade into these shark infested waters but how many of these commenters have been on a well maintained bicycle trail in a tourism hot spot like our lake?
I admit that I don't know the number of train riders but I would wager many, many times more people (locals and tourists) would use the trail for hiking and cycling than train riders. These bike trails generate lots of tourism dollars as people want healthy forms of recreation. You can see it all around the country.
I have ridden bike trails in FL, on the west coast and principally in New England. Almost without exception, businesses along rail trails love the business these trails generates. Cyclists and walkers stop for refreshments, meals, a beer (or two) and come back again and again. Cycling is easy on the joints and I know many cyclists in their 70s who easily do 20 miles daily (especially along rail trails with their modest grade changes).
I would like to see trail accommodate more people than the limited numbers of train riders - and I have nothing against trains. It is simply a matter of highest and best use of this corridor. Hands down it is for people powered transport.
Well, I guess there is blood in the water now

if people want to get worked up over it that's on them; we're just talking here. The argument in favor of keeping the rails seems to boil down to "it's always been there and thus it shall ever be"

[Cobalt 25]

I live fairly close to the bike trail here on the Cape and my wife tells me we did over 100 miles on the trails in 2020, even though our boats come first. We ate (carefully and socially-distanced) at several of the restaurants and would have done more if not for Covid. As mentioned in previous posts, the Cape bike trails get tons of use.

But we stay at a place in Paugus that has the train going 50 yards from the house and our grandkids love it when it goes by.

I really have no dog in this fight. I like the bike trail AND trains!

Would that we could somehow have both.

[Woodsy]

The WOW trail co-exists with the RR for its entire (current) length. If they want to extend it to the Weirs, then pay the $$$ during construction to co-exist with the RR.

IMHO, It is not in the State/Public best interest to kill a tax paying existing business that is by all accounts doing well even during Covid. Sets a dangerous precedent.

I won't get into the homeless encampments that exist just off the WOW trail now! Just what the Weirs needs.... homeless encampments! Especially along all that very expensive Paugus Bay property!

This is all moot anyway..... pretty sure the RR has a 10yr option to renew coming up and then there will be the STB to deal with.

Woodsy

[MAXUM]

Rip up the rails and turn that trail into an OHRV trail do it all the way up through Franconia Notch and hook it into the Presidential Rec Trail on the back side of Twin Mtn.

That would be awesome! Especially if there was plenty of dual use roads for OHRV use along the way for gas and food stops.

Perfect!

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by jbolty

The argument in favor of keeping the rails seems to boil down to "it's always been there and thus it shall ever be"

That's not true at all, the state has converted many railroad lines to trails, one was just recently (or is in the process of being), converted to a trail from Littleton to Whitefield. The difference between that line and this line is very clear though. The line in Littleton had no online shippers, the operator leasing the line gave up its common carrier rights (approved by the STB) and with no operators and shippers showing interest, the state petitioned and was approved by the STB to abandon the line. With two operators leasing the line along Winnipesaukee, there's not much the state can do, even if they wanted to close the line.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by mishman

Hesitant to wade into these shark infested waters but how many of these commenters have been on a well maintained bicycle trail in a tourism hot spot like our lake?
I admit that I don't know the number of train riders but I would wager many, many times more people (locals and tourists) would use the trail for hiking and cycling than train riders. These bike trails generate lots of tourism dollars as people want healthy forms of recreation. You can see it all around the country.
I have ridden bike trails in FL, on the west coast and principally in New England. Almost without exception, businesses along rail trails love the business these trails generates. Cyclists and walkers stop for refreshments, meals, a beer (or two) and come back again and again. Cycling is easy on the joints and I know many cyclists in their 70s who easily do 20 miles daily (especially along rail trails with their modest grade changes).
I would like to see trail accommodate more people than the limited numbers of train riders - and I have nothing against trains. It is simply a matter of highest and best use of this corridor. Hands down it is for people powered transport.
Well, I guess there is blood in the water now

In 2019 two different reports were release for 2 different studies done.
One clearly omitted info to try and sell the trail as the better option but the numbers never added up, the other study painted a clearer picture. At first they tried to brush the 2nd study under the rug, until every body and their mother, showed up to the city council meeting in November 2019. At that time the report for the other study was brought to the city counsels attention and the new mayor to be, asked for some time to look over that report. A couple of months later and going off off both reports, the city counsel reversed direction and decided to stop pushing the issue. Instead a Blue Ribbon Committee was formed, made of individuals from the city, the wow trail, SD & LB and one or both railroads. Nobody is denying the WOW Trail to build phase 3 and 4 but what has been denied is the option to remove the railroad tracks. Lake phase 1 and 2, if they want phase 3 and 4, it will have to be done in the same manner. It is the responsibility of that Blue Ribbon Committee, to figure out how is done. Unfortunately there has been little (if any) updates since early 2020.

[Descant]

Am I correct that many lakeside camp owners own land on both sides of the tracks? It's one thing to have a train roll through on a predictable schedule, no stops. It's quite another to have hikers and bikers rolling/strolling though my front yard.