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Old 11-21-2023, 05:27 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by John Mercier View Post
Then you would be incorrect. No property tax is sent to the State for to be redistributed; that has been the case since 2011.
Then can you explain why the school portion of our tax bill is broken into two parts-state tax and local tax? I don't have a tax bill in front of me but I am pretty sure that is the cases.
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Old 11-21-2023, 07:13 AM   #102
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Default Yet another Education hike!

https://newhampshirebulletin.com/202...utionally-low/
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Old 11-21-2023, 08:44 AM   #103
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Default Compelling LTE in LDS

There is a most interesting and compelling letter in today’s Laconia Daily Sun, written by one of our posters. The proposals being presented for renovations to Moultonborough’ schools are stunning, and will run in the $44 to $45 MILLION
taxpayer dollar range! Very few voters bother to show up for the March meeting when votes are cast regarding the school budget. The poster’s point is well taken: don’t complain about your taxes; SHOW UP and vote! Otherwise, the bloated school budget will be rubber stamped, as usual, and the insane spending will continue.
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Old 11-21-2023, 09:13 AM   #104
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https://www.unionleader.com/news/cou...399970b34.html


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...1ee7d7c90.html
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Old 11-21-2023, 11:38 AM   #105
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Educational funding has been at the heart of many conversations around Property Taxes for years. Despite John Mercer's statement that Money from property Tax, doesn't go to the state I don't believe it. Otherwise why is there a State Education line item.

From the beginning when education funding became a poblem, band-aids are all that have ever been applied.... NH has never created a structure that will effectively ensure education is properly funded....

John, if you could provide some RSA number the show that your statement about no local funding going to the state for education, I would be more inclined to accept the statement.
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Old 11-21-2023, 12:04 PM   #106
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Because the State uses it for accounting purposes.
Should a school district not raise enough from the State Ed Property Tax to cover the per pupil education grant number with modifiers from the State, the State sends money (usually collected from Business Taxes... but other non-dedicated sources can be used) to cover the difference.

The ConVal lawsuits, I put them together but they are separate, argue that the State education adequacy numbers do not cover the mandates as required; and the other argues that allowing the district to retain excess State Ed property tax is unconstitutional.

You will know when it changes... the State Ed rate will jump by an estimated three to four times the current amount, and your School rate will increase for the offset of what it does not get to retain.

It sounds like more of you need to pay attention to your taxes and what they are being used for.
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Old 11-21-2023, 12:12 PM   #107
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Then can you explain why the school portion of our tax bill is broken into two parts-state tax and local tax? I don't have a tax bill in front of me but I am pretty sure that is the cases.
That is the case... as explained above.

Each school district based on the number of pupils and specified modifiers in the law is to receive a State grant equal to that number. In a school where the State Ed rate raises enough, or more than enough, money... the school is sent no grant.
In a school where the State Ed rate does not raise enough money, the State sends a grant from other sources.

The State Ed grants are used to offset the Local School portion of the tax. In a school where the State Ed rate raises more than necessary... the money is retained and further offsets the Local School portion.

There is two ongoing lawsuits over the current method as the change in 2011 was found to be unconstitutional; and the current adequacy levels are being challenged as to whether they cover the mandates.

The State of NH lost the first round in both. The NHSC heard the case, but deferred it back to the lower court.

https://fairfundingnh.org/lawsuit-conval/
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Old 11-21-2023, 05:11 PM   #108
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Because the State uses it for accounting purposes.
Should a school district not raise enough from the State Ed Property Tax to cover the per pupil education grant number with modifiers from the State, the State sends money (usually collected from Business Taxes... but other non-dedicated sources can be used) to cover the difference.

The ConVal lawsuits, I put them together but they are separate, argue that the State education adequacy numbers do not cover the mandates as required; and the other argues that allowing the district to retain excess State Ed property tax is unconstitutional.

You will know when it changes... the State Ed rate will jump by an estimated three to four times the current amount, and your School rate will increase for the offset of what it does not get to retain.

It sounds like more of you need to pay attention to your taxes and what they are being used for.
We are dancing around semantics here.... and accounting practices... bottom line is money does go to the state, and then is supposed to be funneled back to the town..... The thought is it never leaves the town, and on paper is drawn that way.... I will agree with that

However as I have been looking at the numbers for Moultonborough, I can see that there is more going to the state then needs to, because of where the state set the rate for Moultonborough... Now this is because the numbers are likely adjusted to account for a percentage of property Taxes not getting paid etc., in short accounting in the margins....

There is gray area between what you state/believe and reality, just like there is gray area between what I state/believe and reality....

I have been following the ups and downs of the Property Tax on my families property since we bought in 1994, I have never seen Property tax fluctuate Year to Year the way I see it happening in NH... At the end of the day, that is what speaks volumes to me... It isn't always about education, although that is what we have focused on here. There are many factors involved, NH has a cash cow, which is non-resident second home owners.... and they tap into it at will....
They have no reason to worry, because we desire to own our property and when we decided to no longer desire it, there are plenty of people waiting in the wings.... This has lead to poor money management....... I have lived in a variety of different places, and own property in a variety of different states.... Why is it Property Tax in NH is always a hot topic? IMHO, because NH needs to revamp properly many of their funding schemes, from infrastructure, to schools, to the government itself, etc.
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Old 11-21-2023, 05:31 PM   #109
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I agree with you Lifer, it's semantics. If it goes to the state and the state decides where it goes, to me it is a state tax, and we around the lake are probably mostly still donor towns, although I don't know that.
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Old 11-21-2023, 06:50 PM   #110
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There have not been donor towns since 2011.
I already told you that.

On November 20th, Judge David W. Ruoff in Steven Rand et al vs State of NH ruled the system that allowed State Ed taxes to be kept by the town.
It will now go to the NHSC and if upheld, donor towns will return to the mix.
The excess money collected will be sent to the State for redistribution.

He also has a ruling that the current State Ed Adequacy Grant is only about half of what it should be.
Because we are working to lower business taxes in the State to stay competitive with New York (Northeast Quad), and are dissolving the D&I, the most likely out come of the new funding requirement, should it hold up in the NHSC, is a instead of raising half of the money from SWEPT is to raise three quarters or more from SWEPT... thus increasing the State Ed rate by about three or four times.

I have been pointing this out for months.

NH is generally a conservative State - Yankee Frugal - it taxes consumption/recreation, but not production/savings.
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Old 11-22-2023, 05:21 AM   #111
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I know you told us that. But when the state takes taxes from the town and funnels (LI's word) it back to other towns that didn't raise enough, I'm not sure there is a lot of difference, just in the name.
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Old 11-22-2023, 07:24 AM   #112
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The money marked as the "state education" component of the property tax (SWEPT - StateWide Educational Property Tax), since 2011, stays with the town it is collected in. It is labeled "state" because the state REQUIRES that the town collects it. The state requires this because the state constitution requires that the state must provide for an adequate education (a continually debated amount). SWEPT discharges the state's responsibility.

When SWEPT was created, it was determined that $363 million annually would be needed to FUND "adequate" education. The state property tax assessed rate is set, based on total current state property values, to raise that $363 million, however, the money is NOT sent to the state. It remains in the town that collects it as the state's "contribution" to the town's needs for an adequate education.

Since 2011, IF the local SWEPT amount received exceeds the local school budget for the town (voted locally), the excess is KEPT by the town and can be used to defray other tax liabilities thereby lowering the other tax rate components.

To emphasize, NO money from SWEPT goes to the state. Since 2011, there are no longer any "donor" towns. Any addition aid assistance (food programs, etc.) is provided by the state from non property tax revenues (see below).

The Local Education Tax simply pays for any excess beyond the money provided by SWEPT as passed by the individual town in their school budget.

Beyond SWEPT and an adequate education, the schools also report additional AID required on a per student basis, such as supplemental meal assistance. The state assists (at a small proportional amount) with such costs by using money from other state sources of revenue, such as the Business Enterprise Tax. The remaining AID funding is provided through local school property taxes.

The demand for more money for education is unending, even in other states with income and sales taxes. It is hard to determine what benefit these states get for all their additional revenue dedicated to education as compared to New Hampshire. The forces for education spending are continually launching legal assaults on New Hampshire's limited funding methods to pry additional funds and additional revenue methods (income tax, sales tax) from NH citizens.

The dependance on property taxes creates stress on some property tax owners but the reality is that most owners of expensive, highly taxed properties can afford the tax. "Solutions" like income or sales taxes come with a plethora of ills, especially a revenue source that can be tweaked by the state to provide more money any time they want to spend on some idiotic venture to "buy" campaign funding from grateful businesses. Check Vermont, who went full boat into taxation to "relieve" property owners. They are much worse off for it, especially their citizens.

There is no utopian solution to paying taxes. All approaches have their down sides. As tough as property taxes can be for some, they are the best solution for local control and controlling spending.
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Old 11-22-2023, 08:15 AM   #113
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Default State Education

JeffK is right about the education portion. The town collects the money.

The state should fund at least $7,356 per pupil – not the current $4,100 – the judge holds.

You will see this amount will almost double when the state implements the court ruling. I'm trying to find the article that states the amount per pupil average is around $13,000 statewide if you include administrative, property, and special education expenses.

And this debate will go on and on and on...................
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Old 11-22-2023, 08:44 AM   #114
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NH Dept. of Education
Posted: January 06, 2023


https://www.education.nh.gov/news/ne...continues-rise

https://www.education.nh.gov/sites/g...-2000-2022.pdf


Add more controversy

https://nhcharterschools.org/faq/
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Old 11-22-2023, 09:02 AM   #115
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So we know M'boro spends way more per pupil than the state or the judge considers for adequate. M'boro is in the $40,000 + range per student. And last year the SWEPT was $1.22 per thousand from the state. The question is.....what will the tax rate impact be if M'boro has to return money to the state? Is it just that taxes would go up be $1.22 or is there some sort of fancy calculation that I cannot seem to find. HELP !!

Last edited by tummyman; 11-22-2023 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 11-22-2023, 09:10 AM   #116
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the average per pupil expenditure of $19,399 across the state as per court.

https://www.nhbr.com/judge-nh-school...onstitutional/
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Old 11-22-2023, 09:34 AM   #117
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So we know M'boro spends way more per pupil than the state or the judge considers for adequate. M'boro is in the $40,000 + range per student. And last year the SWEPT was $1.22 per thousand from the state. The question is.....what will the tax rate impact be if M'boro has to return money to the state? Is it just that taxes would go up be $1.22 or is there some sort of fancy calculation that I cannot seem to find. HELP !!
First, with rough numbers, a recent report of student numbers is 501 and the school budget for 2022/23 was $15,541,613. This yields $31,021 per student, not $40,000+. Plus, I suspect this budget includes aid programs like free school lunches which is technically outside education funding.

"If M'boro needs to return money to the state"? This would only happen if the court cases were successful and, frankly, the contortions needed to address any new legal requirements are unknown and unknowable. It's legislative sausage making and who knows what will come out of the grinder. Also, it's a ways out in the future. The court cases will not be easily resolved and any resolution will be challenged to the State Supreme Court. Then, there will be some grace period to accomplish a change through the legislature. No matter what some judge would like, trying to immediately ram through any funding changes NOW would be a fiscal nightmare. The state Supreme Count would not let it happen so abruptly.

There is no "calculation" to find because, CURRENTLY, there is no mechanism for return of ANY SWEPT funds to the state. ALL SWEPT funds are retained by the town. Period.
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Old 11-22-2023, 10:27 AM   #118
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First, with rough numbers, a recent report of student numbers is 501 and the school budget for 2022/23 was $15,541,613. This yields $31,021 per student, not $40,000+. Plus, I suspect this budget includes aid programs like free school lunches which is technically outside education funding.
Regardless of $31K or $40K per student funding calculation.... If the courts dictate that the State Governing body kick more into the towns, it would like be a give and take type issue.... While that State Fund line item would go up, the local portion could come down. I also wonder if that straight calculation isn't flawed when it comes to per student educational funding... As I agree that the school budget might be hard to interpret, because of funding for things like school lunches etc. and other "non" educational line items, some of which also get federal funding... I read the other day, that School Nurses don't fall under the envelope of being required for proper education...

Now with all that said.... we continue to go around and around on the education issue.... And the laws may not have donor towns any more, and I thank Jeff K. for his information on the subject... But if the State is not funding schools at an acceptable level, causing hard ships on the towns, that is just as bad.... and negatively effect our property Taxes.... Which leads me to the same ultimately conclusion, that financially the State of NH has funding problems that they are willing to pass the buck on. Towns like Moultonborough or any of the towns on the lake form what I have seen get a break, because of the seasonal home ownership that can help offset the expenditures, and don't drive additional costs....

If the State would start to better understand its strength and weakness in terms of revenue generation, the system could likely be made a whole lot better....
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Old 11-22-2023, 11:58 AM   #119
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With all this money per pupil given to each city and town what is the number that parents can hold schools accountable for the poor numbers the state receives for public education?


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Old 11-22-2023, 12:45 PM   #120
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It amazes me how people don't feel responsible for funding a quality education for their children and grandchildren. Give a child a fish feed him for the day, teach him to fish and feed him for life.
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Old 11-22-2023, 12:54 PM   #121
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We rank 47th in State Aid to education and 6th in outcomes for K-12.
So even if the numbers are off, we seem to be doing pretty well.

The only results we can't see is if a student goes to private school or is homeschooled... they have to choose to use the standardized formats.
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Old 11-22-2023, 12:59 PM   #122
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It amazes me how people don't feel responsible for funding a quality education for their children and grandchildren. Give a child a fish feed him for the day, teach him to fish and feed him for life.
I look at it as more of paying it forward.
But if someone wants to think about it... someone else probably paid for their early education. So it is like paying back what was advanced to us.

My only concern is if they are mandating the right things?

We have gotten ourselves into a heck of a mess by pushing out young families with children and pulling in as many retirees as we can get our hands on.

Booming demand... a good thing, but simply not enough labor to do justice to the customer.
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Old 11-22-2023, 01:41 PM   #123
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Moultonborough
Reference School District Annual report, March 2023
page 22: actual enrollment 2022-2023 is 487; Projected 2023-2024 is 489
page 33 Proposed budget $17,402,067 less revenue of $740,046 = $16,762,021 (is also 2023 NH DRA MS-26)

Go back to :

NH Dept. of Education posted earlier in this thread

https://www.education.nh.gov/sites/g...-2000-2022.pdf

cost per pupil
1999-2000 .... $15,418
2021-2022 .... $29,469


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Old 11-22-2023, 08:56 PM   #124
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So we know M'boro spends way more per pupil than the state or the judge considers for adequate. M'boro is in the $40,000 + range per student. And last year the SWEPT was $1.22 per thousand from the state. The question is.....what will the tax rate impact be if M'boro has to return money to the state? Is it just that taxes would go up be $1.22 or is there some sort of fancy calculation that I cannot seem to find. HELP !!
If SWEPT returns to the constitutional condition, with no increase in per pupil expenditure... a rough calculation could be determined by multiplying the number of students in Moultonborough times the per pupil grant. Multiplying the State Ed rate times the total property valuation. And subtracting the first number from the second.

(State ED Rate x Total Property Valuation)-(State ED Adequacy Grant X # of pupils) = Excess Funds Sent to State

At this time, it is impossible to tell if changes to the State ED Rate or the State Ed Adequacy Grant will change.

If history holds true... if will go from the Superior Court judge to the NHSC. The NHSC will find the current status quo unconstitutional. The Legislature will balk and try to change the court - or bring public opinion against it. The majority of the Legislature will shift from one party to the other. They will uphold the court finding and try to fix the system to fall within the State Constitution - as they have all sworn to do, but hate to. And my guess, is the State ED Adequacy Grant will be nearly doubled, with the new money being found by changing the State Ed Rate. A compromise will be made to do it over time as to not shock the system...

History could be different this time...
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Old 11-23-2023, 07:48 AM   #125
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Default You're not alone

Moultonborough is not alone. I got my tax bill yesterday and I went from $854 6 months ago to $1,246 due on 12/27. Merry Christmas to me and my family.

Last year, the Town of Alton approved EVERY Warrant Article on the ballot except for spending $20,000 for a sign saying "Welcome to Alton".

Time to sharpen the pencil.

Back to Moultonborough and their frustrations.

Dave
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Old 11-23-2023, 07:53 AM   #126
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Moultonborough is not alone. I got my tax bill yesterday and I went from $854 6 months ago to $1,246 due on 12/27. Merry Christmas to me and my family.

Last year, the Town of Alton approved EVERY Warrant Article on the ballot except for spending $20,000 for a sign saying "Welcome to Alton".

Time to sharpen the pencil.

Back to Moultonborough and their frustrations.

Dave
You forgot though, you can't compare Dec to Jun. The spring bill is always half of the full bill for the previous year. The Dec bill reflects the full amount for the current year less the June amount you already paid.
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Old 11-23-2023, 09:05 AM   #127
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Default I know that

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You forgot though, you can't compare Dec to Jun. The spring bill is always half of the full bill for the previous year. The Dec bill reflects the full amount for the current year less the June amount you already paid.
tis, I do realize that. My tax bill for this year (6 month) is $1,246. Last June, it was $854. Our Town Facebook page lit up yesterday with the receipt of the tax bill yesterday.

When I write the check on December 27th, the bill is and will be the $1246. In late May, I will get installment two for the same $1246 (roughly). Everything has gone up in Alton, the town amount, the school amount, the state amount, and the county amount.

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Old 11-26-2023, 05:01 PM   #128
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Default Hike in Taxes & Our Schools

Many have already posted how the numbers got to where they are now. Bottom line is we do not have the bulk of the taxpayers attending the Annual School Town Meeting in March. The people who attend are those wanting the new budget to pass each year. It goes up EVERY year, despite the number of students dropping every year. It is insane to be paying 17M/year for 480 students, when our whole town (separate budget) runs on 10M. That tells you how out of control our school costs are.
Go to the School Town Meeting in MARCH and vote the budget down. While you are there vote for SB2 for next year so everyone can vote through a ballot at the annual elections. This way if you are not here in March, you can send in an absentee ballot and still have your voice heard.
BTW, Moultonborough students are very low in Math proficiency in NH. Let's also get our schools to focus on Reading, Writing, Math and Science and quit all the Social Engineering and Mental Health programs. Parents are responsible for raising their children to become social adjusted adults. Don't take that away from them; they know and love them the most.
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Old 11-26-2023, 05:27 PM   #129
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Default Elect Fiscally Responsible School Board Members and Selectmen

In addition to attending the meetings, we also need to elect people that are going to be Fiscally Responsible. Given the revenue that Moultonborough can generate, we need people who actually propose what the town needs, and not some of these pie in the sky proposals like we had at the last town meeting.
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Old 11-26-2023, 06:03 PM   #130
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Moultonborough is spending a lot per pupil as compared to others. I think the highest in the State for traditional public schools.

But you are for high school rankings 16 out of 85
Newfound is 26
Gilford is 28
Prospect (Alton) is 38
Kingswood (Wolfeboro) is 40
Belmont is 41 (still in the top 50 percent)
Inter-lakes is 43
Winnisquam is 58
Laconia is 69
Franklin is 84

What I found impressive is that Moultonborough moved from 41 last year to 26 this year.

Their graduation rate is down... but I suspect that is due to the high pay of the trades in the area.
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Old 11-27-2023, 08:48 AM   #131
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In addition to attending the meetings, we also need to elect people that are going to be Fiscally Responsible. Given the revenue that Moultonborough can generate, we need people who actually propose what the town needs, and not some of these pie in the sky proposals like we had at the last town meeting.
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The people who attend are those wanting the new budget to pass each year. It goes up EVERY year, despite the number of students dropping every year. It is insane to be paying 17M/year for 480 students, when our whole town (separate budget) runs on 10M. That tells you how out of control our school costs are.
RIGHT-ON!

I believe the MoBo school board has announced March 9, 2024 as the next annual school district meeting date. That is a Saturday. MoBo voters need to attend and vote.


Quote:
While you are there vote for SB2 for next year so everyone can vote through a ballot at the annual elections. This way if you are not here in March, you can send in an absentee ballot and still have your voice heard.
Rumor has it that there's a petition for SB2 adoption for the school district. Another reason to attend the school district meeting. For all of the SB2 naysayers that say SB2 prevents being informed, where were you for the school district meeting!

Last edited by longislander; 11-27-2023 at 08:52 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 11-27-2023, 09:22 AM   #132
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Many have already posted how the numbers got to where they are now. Bottom line is we do not have the bulk of the taxpayers attending the Annual School Town Meeting in March. The people who attend are those wanting the new budget to pass each year. It goes up EVERY year, despite the number of students dropping every year. .
Maybe it's time to take a lesson from Croydon.

Just enough people attended the School District Meeting to amend the school budget, cutting it to less than half the proposed amount and then approving the amended budget. Of course those who couldn't be bothered to attend were outraged. But it also taught them a lesson: Attend the town/school district meeting. If you don't you have little right to complain about the results.

Gilford is an SB2 town for both Town Meeting and School District Meeting. For us it has worked. It isn't perfect. But then traditional Town Meeting/School District Meeting had low attendance. The deliberative sessions for both aren't all that well attended - less than 100 in general - but during voting we'll see between 1300 and 2000 townsfolk casting votes. Are they informed when they cast their votes? Maybe.
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:13 AM   #133
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Maybe it's time to take a lesson from Croydon.
Great points.
It took a special town/school meeting in May, to overturn the March school district budget cuts (50 voter petition not 25 for special meeting).

Quote:
But then traditional Town Meeting/School District Meeting had low attendance.
Same for MoBo, except when a Recreation Center shows up on the warrant.

Quote:
The deliberative sessions for both aren't all that well attended - less than 100 in general - but during voting we'll see between 1300 and 2000 townsfolk casting votes. Are they informed when they cast their votes? Maybe.
But at least the Tuesday ballot voters should know what happened at the deliberative session and have around 30 days to find out more before having to vote. Not like traditional, forced to vote on what the boards say, or someone with an agenda at the mic and then required to vote.

I guess ... what is informed. Is reading the ballot with no prior knowledge good enough. The wording maybe?
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:19 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by longislander View Post
RIGHT-ON!

I believe the MoBo school board has announced March 9, 2024 as the next annual school district meeting date. That is a Saturday. MoBo voters need to attend and vote.




Rumor has it that there's a petition for SB2 adoption for the school district. Another reason to attend the school district meeting. For all of the SB2 naysayers that say SB2 prevents being informed, where were you for the school district meeting!
SB2 removes the ability to modify line items at town meetings, one of the best tools to stop crazy spending. It's a bad move for this town especially with the pressures to increase spending. Regardless of what the school committee votes, it still needs to be voted at town meeting and the amount can still be changed on the floor if the majority desires. That ability goes away with SB2.

I wasn't at the school committee meeting, maybe you can fill me in with your experience there?
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:51 AM   #135
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I wasn't at the school committee meeting, maybe you can fill me in with your experience there?
Sure!

Did you mean annual school district meeting or the Nov. 14 school board meeting. And, there are many different school committees. I attended both the annual and the Nov. 14th meetings.

The annual school district meeting, that is what we are talking about, was sparsely attended. I actually stood in the far aisle at the end of that meeting and counted 50-70 potential voters. A lot of them were/are school staff. There appeared to be more young kids then adults (sic).

Without getting too technical...

Quote:
SB2 removes the ability to modify line items at town meetings
No it doesn't. The warrant discussed at the SB2 deliberative session can and is modified/changed by the voters attending. The Tuesday ballot cannot be changed. Traditional meetings decide the warrant then and there and vote. "Reconsiderations" can be done till the end of the meeting, especially if folks have already left the meeting. MoBo is wise to that and will vote a motion to "not reconsider". Rules are set by moderator/ state statute.

Here's the town stream of the 2023 annual school district meeting. The camera folks used an wrong title ... deliberative session... it was not unfortunetely.

https://townhallstreams.com/stream.p...id=51&id=51684


Note the total time it took for a meeting with a $17 million budget: 8:58 minutes, and if you bothered to view, how many questions/motions at the mic ... zero!
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Old 11-27-2023, 12:14 PM   #136
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But it is very hard to compare the systems and outcomes.

Moultonborough had 19.4% of students on free/reduced lunch... while a higher ranking Sunapee (10th) had 15.9% on free/reduced lunch.
Sunapee spent about $1400 less per student... but its ranking is going down, while Moultonborough is going up.

Sunapee has 12 less students. So the overall bill would be pretty close.

Inter-lakes has about twice as many students, a slightly lower free/reduced lunch percentage (17.7) spent about $5300 less per student, but dropped 26 places in the standings from last year.
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Old 11-27-2023, 12:31 PM   #137
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It is not difficult, or shouldn't be, comparing needed capital expenditures to "wish lists" by "unmonitored" officials, no matter the system; non-sequiture.

Free lunches to kids compared to free lunches to administrators and officials wanting to give their "kids" EVERYTHING ... well.

I know. Well ... a deep hole in the ground ... like they're trying to do to our wallets!

https://www.education.nh.gov/who-we-...-lunch-program
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Old 11-27-2023, 03:15 PM   #138
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Without knowing what the State will deem adequate sort of is.

Anything beyond adequacy is a ''want''; that the town has to determine it is willing to pay for under the Local ED rate.
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Old 11-27-2023, 03:53 PM   #139
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New Hampshire law requires that all public schools provide an adequate education to all students.

One definition:

An adequate education in New Hampshire is defined as one that provides all students with the opportunity to:

Master the core academic subjects of reading, writing, mathematics, science, and social studies. This includes developing the skills and knowledge necessary to be successful in further education and the workforce.

Develop critical thinking and problem-solving skills. This includes the ability to analyze information, solve problems, and make rational decisions.

Become effective communicators. This includes the ability to read, write, speak, and listen effectively in a variety of contexts.

Develop positive social and emotional skills. This includes the ability to work cooperatively, respect others, and manage emotions.

Is that with or without cell phones?


Then again...NEW HAMPSHIRE EDUCATION LAWS UNANNOTATED
—————————
2021–2022 EDITION Page 317

"193–E:2 Criteria for an Adequate Education.
An adequate education shall provide all students with the opportunity to acquire:
I. Skill in reading, writing, and speaking English to enable them to communicate effectively and think creatively and critically.
II. Skill in mathematics and familiarity with methods of science to enable them to analyze information, solve problems, and make rational decisions.
III. Knowledge of the biological, physical, and earth sciences, including environmental sciences that investigate the complex interaction of physical, chemical, and biological processes that take place on the earth, to enable them to understand and appreciate the world and the engineering, socio economic, and geopolitical challenges around them.
IV. Knowledge of civics and government, economics, geography, history, and Holocaust and genocide education to enable them to participate in the democratic process and to make informed choices as responsible citizens.
V. Grounding in the arts, languages, and literature to enable them to appreciate our cultural heritage and develop lifelong interests and involvement in these areas.
VI. Sound wellness and environmental practices, including outdoor recreation, to enable them to enhance their own well-being, as well as that of others.
VII. Skills for lifelong learning, including interpersonal, environmental education, and technological skills, to enable them to learn, work, communicate, and participate effectively in a changing society and environment.
Source. 1998, 389:1. 2005, 257:15. 2007, 270:3, eff. June 29,
2007. 2020, 29:12, eff. Sept. 21, 2020. 2021, 210:2, Pt. V, Secs. 1 and
2, eff. Oct. 9, 2021.

https://www.education.nh.gov/sites/g...d-complete.pdf

And now hang a dollar figure on it. Maybe they will say bitcoin must be used to pay!

Some MoBo folks are inclined to Taj Mahals. Is that adequate.
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Old 11-27-2023, 06:12 PM   #140
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The Legislature will need to decide what the new figure for adequacy is...
But requiring payment in bitcoin is forbidden by the US Constitution.
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Old 11-27-2023, 06:54 PM   #141
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The comment about bitcoin was a joke.

However I'll bite:

Whether or not requiring payment in Bitcoin is forbidden by the US Constitution is a complex question that has not been definitively answered by the courts. There are a number of arguments that could be made on both sides of the issue.

Arguments in favor of the constitutionality of requiring payment in Bitcoin

The Coinage Clause: The Coinage Clause of the US Constitution gives Congress the power to "coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and to fix the standard of weights and measures." This clause has been interpreted to give Congress the power to regulate all forms of currency, including digital currency like Bitcoin.

The Legal Tender Act: The Legal Tender Act of 1933 made it illegal to refuse payment in US dollars for any debt. This law has been interpreted to apply to all forms of currency, including digital currency like Bitcoin.

The General Welfare Clause: The General Welfare Clause of the US Constitution gives Congress the power to "lay and collect taxes, pay the debts of the United States, provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States." This clause has been interpreted to give Congress the power to regulate all aspects of the economy, including the use of currency.

Arguments against the constitutionality of requiring payment in Bitcoin

The Contracts Clause: The Contracts Clause of the US Constitution prohibits states from passing any law that "impairs the obligation of contracts." This clause has been interpreted to mean that states cannot pass laws that make it more difficult for people to pay off their debts. Requiring payment in Bitcoin could make it more difficult for people to pay off their debts, especially if they do not have access to Bitcoin.

The First Amendment: The First Amendment of the US Constitution protects the right to freedom of speech. This right has been interpreted to include the right to use any form of currency that you choose. Requiring payment in Bitcoin could restrict people's freedom of speech by limiting their choices of currency.

The Due Process Clause: The Due Process Clause of the US Constitution prohibits the government from taking away someone's property without due process of law. This clause has been interpreted to mean that the government cannot take away someone's money without a valid reason. Requiring payment in Bitcoin could take away people's money without a valid reason, especially if they do not have access to Bitcoin.

The ultimate question of whether or not requiring payment in Bitcoin is forbidden by the US Constitution by the court system will probably not happen any time soon.

How about Dunkin Donuts gift cards ... any better!

Also,
The Constitution can be amended.
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Old 11-27-2023, 09:06 PM   #142
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US Con Art One Section 10.

The States have no authority to make anything other than Silver and Gold a tender in payment of debts.

A State can choose to accept other formats of payment, but can not require them.

It has actually been hashed out... with several people going to prison.

Same with this...
The State may not mandate any expense upon a local subdivision - even a public school - so the requirement to provide an adequate education is a State financial responsibility.

That is why they lost the current two rounds of traditional public school funding lawsuits.

Now we wait for the NHSC. Should they concur with the Superior Court, then it is up to the Legislature.

The Legislature can balk; and stall to an election year.
That is what they did the last time.

Or they can get to it during this session, and have something placed into law so that come election time they can say they upheld their constitutional duty.

I'm betting on the first.
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Old 11-27-2023, 09:51 PM   #143
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Article I Legislative Branch
Section 10 Powers Denied States
Clause 1 Proscribed Powers
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.


It says no state ... it doesn't mention federal gov't.

The Coinage Clause of the United States Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 5) does not explicitly prohibit the federal government from making anything other than silver and gold a tender in payment of debts. However, the Supreme Court has held that the Coinage Clause does implicitly limit the federal government's power to make legal tender.

In the 1884 case of Legal Tender Cases, the Supreme Court held that the Coinage Clause does not grant Congress the power to make anything other than gold and silver coins legal tender. The Court reasoned that since the Coinage Clause only grants Congress the power to "coin money" and "regulate the value of foreign coin," it did not intend to grant Congress the power to make paper money legal tender. The Legal Tender Cases primarily involved the constitutionality of the Legal Tender Act of 1862, 12 Stat. 345, enacted during the American Civil War. The paper money depreciated in terms of gold and became the subject of controversy, particularly because debts contracted earlier could be paid in this cheaper currency.

The Court's decision in Legal Tender Cases has been criticized by some scholars, who argue that the Court's interpretation of the Coinage Clause is too narrow. They argue that the Coinage Clause simply grants Congress the power to regulate the currency, and that this power includes the power to make paper money legal tender.

Despite this criticism, the Court's decision in Legal Tender Cases has never been overruled, and it remains the law of the land. As a result, the federal government is not prohibited from making anything other than silver and gold coins legal tender, but it is limited in its ability to do so.

Secondly,
Is reference is being made to the recent two decisions of the ConVal case by a single judge Ruoff, or the two Claremont decisions?

Probably the ConVal case. That is, presently, a Rockingham County case and is not yet binding on the state. It will be binding on the state, if and when, the NH Supreme Court grants certiorari and decides on the case. If it doesn't get heard by the NH Supreme Court, then what. Legislature v. Judge Ruoff? Or, is it binding only in Rockingham county? It would be surprising if the NH Supreme Court would not intervene, but nothing requires it to do so.

Federal and NH state constitutions can be amended.
Federal:An amendment may be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both Houses of Congress, or, if two-thirds of the States request one, by a convention called for that purpose. The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification.

NEXT!
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Old 11-27-2023, 09:59 PM   #144
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Why would the federal government make you pay your State level taxes?
And why would the federal government decide that it should be in bitcoin?
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:11 PM   #145
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Quote:
Why would the federal government make you pay your State level taxes?
And why would the federal government decide that it should be in bitcoin?
The federal gov't has no jurisdiction on state taxes.The federal gov't is in Bitcoin, but not as currency.
"Uncle Sam’s stash of some 200,000 bitcoin was seized from cybercriminals and darknet markets"


https://www.wsj.com/finance/currenci...llion-78ce0938
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:59 PM   #146
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But the subject is a State tax for a State mandate.

Since the federal government isn't going to be involved, and the State can't require payment in bitcoin, there is no way for that to happen.

The questions are simply will the NHSC concur with the lower court? And will the Legislature act to uphold the State Constitution should that occur?

Since the State sets the adequacy rate... anything above the adequacy rate is simply extras or the State adequacy rate is not high enough to provide what is deemed adequate.

For example, should the State set the adequacy rate at $8000, then the voters should deem any sum above that to be extraneous. A want instead of need.

It is something they will need to think about at town meeting in the Spring... as we should have some idea by then at least whether the SWEPT non-donor town condition will be found unconstitutional. If it is, Moultonborough and others will return to donor town status and have to carry that cost.

That will be above whatever the local voters approve for their school budget.
It will probably have to be phased in again. And a low-income primary home carve out be supplied... though hopefully they don't do something foolish and have to end up in court again.
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Old 11-28-2023, 05:30 AM   #147
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A couple of years ago " Moultonboro Speaks " posted what it would cost towns if the latest donor deal was passed. We wouldn't be happy. I didn't see Moultonborough on the list but Wolfeboro and Tuftonboro were inconceivable. I think Glen Cordelli was one of the sponsors.
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Old 11-28-2023, 07:31 AM   #148
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A couple of years ago " Moultonboro Speaks " posted what it would cost towns if the latest donor deal was passed. We wouldn't be happy. I didn't see Moultonborough on the list but Wolfeboro and Tuftonboro were inconceivable. I think Glen Cordelli was one of the sponsors.
Good comment.
When Paul was running that forum he may have been a selectman, before becoming our fine moderator.

https://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.com/

It should not be confused with the Facebook entry.

I'm out-a-here for this thread. (Yea ... they say! )
I can only take so much opinion without a posting of the source of the comments, if I can comprehend the verbiage of the argument. I don't need the last word. It looks like the Google searches just keep going back to what was originally said by many contributors ... round and round ... worst than kicking a dead dog. Maybe it's me!

Maybe a new thread will come out after tomorrow's NH Supreme Court oral arguments in Daniel Richard vs. Governor Chris Sununu, et al.

"On Monday, October 30, 2023, the New Hampshire Supreme Court, on their own initiative, scheduled oral arguments for November 29, 2023, at 9 a.m., in a highly-anticipated election law case of Daniel Richard vs. Governor Chris Sununu, et al.

This case poses the following questions:

Who is qualified to vote in New Hampshire?
Who is qualified to vote absentee in this State?
Who is required to “sort,” “count” and certify the votes in the towns and cities?
Are voting machines constitutional in N.H?
Can the legislature delegate its law-making power under the State and U.S. Constitutions to an unelected body of bureaucrats (the NH Ballot Law Commission) to make election laws (including voting machine laws), and the ability to suspend State and Federal election laws?
The use of vote tabulation equipment to conceal the counting of un-verified and uncertified absentee ballots and the illegal certification of the election results."


https://www.nhpatriothub.org/2023/10...-29th-at-9-am/

Wonder what opinions the Google searches will produce on this.

Triggered by a U.S. Supreme Court decision SCOTUS decision from June 27, 2023, in Moore v. Harper

https://granitegrok.com/mg_mancheste...chard-v-sununu
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Old 11-28-2023, 12:13 PM   #149
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Not pertinent to the subject.
Regardless of any outcome, it would not change the property tax in Moultonborough.
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Old 12-01-2023, 01:05 PM   #150
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Waterfront property owner in Moultonborough for almost 20 years now.
Overall tax bill up 45% from last year.
Part time residents so we just take it up the tail pipe. We will be priced out eventually.
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Old 12-02-2023, 07:24 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by tis View Post
A couple of years ago " Moultonboro Speaks " posted what it would cost towns if the latest donor deal was passed. We wouldn't be happy. I didn't see Moultonborough on the list but Wolfeboro and Tuftonboro were inconceivable. I think Glen Cordelli was one of the sponsors.
Under the current conditions, if SWEPT is redistributed... Moultonborough would keep about $2M of the State Ed tax and send the rest to Concord.

I think someone in the thread estimated that the State Ed tax collected in Moultonborough equaled four or five million... so it would be millions of dollars flowing from Moultonborough to other municipalities.
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Old 12-02-2023, 07:52 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by John Mercier View Post
Under the current conditions, if SWEPT is redistributed... Moultonborough would keep about $2M of the State Ed tax and send the rest to Concord.

I think someone in the thread estimated that the State Ed tax collected in Moultonborough equaled four or five million... so it would be millions of dollars flowing from Moultonborough to other municipalities.
Yes, he showed a chart of what it would cost each town and we would see huge increases if passed. I remember last time poor little Freedom who doesn't even have a school was a donor town. Manchester didn't quite know what to do with the money they got so they build an athletic field. And after years studies proved that the children of Franklin, Claremont and other receiver towns were not any better educated. Throwing money at everything isn't the answer.
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Old 12-02-2023, 11:05 AM   #153
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The system is not about outcomes... as that is local.
It is about State mandates and the State covering those mandates through State taxation as required by the NH Constitution.
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Old 12-04-2023, 10:17 AM   #154
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The system is not about outcomes... as that is local.
It is about State mandates and the State covering those mandates through State taxation as required by the NH Constitution.
That is correct, as I recall when that whole donor / receiver town thing first started, one of the problems was that the money simply went to the receiver towns, and they where not mandated to only used it for execution. The State government was solely interested in showing that funds went to towns...

At the end of the day, the overall problem is the same, NH doesn't seem to generate enough revenue at the state level to fund everything adequately...and I don't just mean education.
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Old 12-04-2023, 12:11 PM   #155
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Because the State cannot mandate that a school spend more than its adequacy grants... the was the basis for the current lawsuit.

So if a school is expending $16000 per student, and the adequacy grant is $4100... the school is expending $11900 more per student and any additional grants are used to offset the $11900

The extra $11900 either represents a ''want''... athletic teams/etc... or an unfunded mandated from the State.

Even if we were to use the ~$7300 that the judge proposed... there are no traditional public schools in NH that expend below that.

NH uses sales and income taxes to finance most of the State government...
Fees cover specific areas.

We traditionally focused the sales and income taxes to promote productive uses in NH. Even the D&I was originally introduced to promote investment in NH by making those investments not subject to the tax. That was found unconstitutional, and the tax instead of being repealed went broad. The opposite of what was intended.

But outcomes are variable.
Overall NH ranks fourth highest in reading, so even a school ranking toward the bottom of NH probably ranks very well nationally.
And a school like Moultonborough, ranking in the top 20% for NH (above the mean) would be in the very top nationally.
The same thing would happen in math.
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