Soldier's wife fights condo group's flag ban

[Just Sold]

The Samoset Condos in Gilford are not allowing a US Soldiers Wife to display the American Flag and refuses to pay for one that was damaged. New rules were adopted Nov. 4, 2010, and made effective Dec. 1, 2010. She is taking the condo association to court.

http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?...2-4bcb8db9d541

[lawn psycho]

I don't know why condos fight these things as they will assuredly lose.

I understand what they are trying to keep out (the tacky flags) but the American flags in condos has been through so many courts that the association obviously did no diligence. It will end up costing money and the only people who will win are the lawyers arguing the case.

[Lucy Goose]

Ridiculous!!!!

[GFP]

The American Flag Act of 2005 ensures that "the right of an individual to display the flag of the United States on residential property not be abridged." This refers to members of a condo association, too.
I also find it hard to difficult to understand why anyone would leave an American flag on the ground, even if it had been knocked down accidentally.

[Lakesrider]

What is her address? I'll send her a new flag, and flag pole myself.

I say put the Flag back up. If someone comes to take it down again take a picture and send it to a National news agency. Get some better press out of it.
Damn condo associations, are so full of themselves.

[Winni-Retired]

As a veteran ... This makes my blood boil.

As the father-in-law of a US Marine, who just earned his second combat air medal for heroic service since June 2010 in Afganistan and his fifth combat deployment ... This makes my blood boil

As the father of a US Marine Officer, who is currently deployed and puts his life and the lives of the Marines under him on the line everyday ... This makes my blood boil.

If I was in the area, and not down south, I think I would grab a flag and go picket the condo association.

So Condo Association, fight about the right to display a flag, as my sons Marines fight for there life.

The attached picture was from a fire-fight last week

[NoRegrets]

I can not understand the and will never respect those that protest the American flag and/or remove God from public display. I dispise those that push their lack of heart that want to push this out to a public encounter.

Lakesrider - I get welled up by your offer to make it right as well as any public display that honors the great things the American flag represents.

[DOWISLANDER]

I agree with Lakesrider, everyone should send her a flag, then what would the condo board have to say? What pompus "A's" these boards are.

[Argie's Wife]

Public Law 109–243
109th Congress


SEC. 3. RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES.
A condominium association, cooperative association, or residen- tial real estate management association may not adopt or enforce any policy, or enter into any agreement, that would restrict or prevent a member of the association from displaying the flag of the United States on residential property within the association with respect to which such member has a separate ownership interest or a right to exclusive possession or use.

View the whole act here: http://www.coherentbabble.com/Public...2PL109-243.pdf

She has a very solid case, but this really should be resolved at the next condo association meeting without much fanfare...

[MAXUM]

As a veteran having served in two war zones myself this kind of crap really gets me mad too. What is with people that hate this country, hate our American flag and detest our way of life? Obviously they have never stepped foot outside this country and seen what the rest of the world is really like. It makes me sick to my stomach to see how many people sit around and are content to complain about how terrible we are as a nation to the point of wanting to strip away any kind of display that represents our combined heritage and sense of pride in God and country.

I think that condo association should be shipped over to Iraq and get a little taste of the real world, better yet pick up one of those bad evil scary black automatic rifles and stand a post. Bet they couldn't hack 24 hours. Those pompous liberals, if this country and it's flag represents something that you detest so much, I encourage, no I beg you, please leave and take your ideas with you.

Me I did my time, am darn proud of the fact that I had the honor and distinction to do my part to defend this nation. I want no thanks for my service, and if you ask any other vet you'll hear the same thing. What you will also hear loud and clear is how dare you disrespect the right of anyone, especially the wife of a solder in action the ability to display an American flag. Instead they should as good neighbors embrace her, support her, show her encouragement and thank her for all she must endure, the heartache, loneliness, and endless worry that her husband is in harms way each and every day. Nobody can even imagine what it's like to deal with that kind of separation and anxiety unless they too have been through it. For the condo association to treat this woman like this is beyond despicable.

Off my soap box now.....

[NoBozo]

Why did the Condo Association vote this rule in..?

A Condominium is a "Collective" of like minded individuals who happen to be....Lets all hold hands... Liberal. I HAVE NO DOUBT, this military wife and her husband had NO IDEA what they were getting into when buying a Condominium.

When I was in the military 50 years ago as a youngster, I had NO comprehension of politics. I wasn't interested. I was serving my country. I have learned a few things since then. NB

[lawn psycho]

I was the president of a Homeowners Association. What is amazing is how the nit-picking gets started. After one year and all the headaches I had to deal with I said never again. It's like dealing with middle schoolers with all the petty stuff that people freak out about. Add in the couple people who think being on a board means they can rule the world and you get train wrecks like this.

And it's not a political persuasion either. I lot of it is personal taste and the want for "conformity".

But in this case the association is clueless about what they are dealing with. They may even have a lawyer on the board who thinks he/she can push their weight around. You'd be amazed at the crazy letters these boards will agree to send to people in the effort to scare people to cave to their demands.

In the end, I suspect there is a level of arrogance on the association board but not knowing how it's structured it's hard to say how it got this far.

[Just Sold]

Like Lawn Psycho I was the president of a condo assocaition in NH and I chaired the complaint review committe in another association. I find it very troubling that the management company did not tell the board about the Right to Display the American Flag. Seems that the board may not be listening to anyone. The letter sent was from the Manager but most likely it was at the direction of (or should have been) the board of directors. In the end it will cost the association some serious dollars so they should settle sooner rather than later.
I remember that the same thing happened in MA last year at a senior complex and the media attention was quite intense.

[bobio]

As a father of a veteran and a proud American I find this as totally unacceptable. Are the members of this condo association anti Americans? I am encouraged by all the posts in support of the flag display. What we need is more of this as this is just a taste of so many attacks on the American Flag and the American way. If this county is going to survive and be the country it once was we all need to stop this kind of thinking and start showing some pride in this great country. GOD BLESS AMERICA. Let's all fly our flags and show our support to our soldiers and their families.

[SAMIAM]

I wish someone would publish the names and pictures of the board members who voted for that illegal and rediculous rule.
Often,these people remain anonymous.......I think they should be outed.
Thank you to every patriotic American and to those who have served.

[EllyPoinster]

Looks like the NH Legislature wants to make this issue a matter of state law as well - http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?...b-01665fe62599

[Argie's Wife]

It's already been a Federal act (see my post #9, above)...

Seriously... this doesn't need to be run thru Concord. Someone just needs to edumacate the board members on that condo group...

[Newbiesaukee]

As has been pointed out, Argie's wife is exactly correct about the Federal law which covers this. This is not a question of Right/Left whatever politics, regardless of the actions of those who wish to make it so. It is really a question of both common sense and common decency, neither of which seems very common these days.

[John A. Birdsall]

As a Vietnam Vet, US Navy vet of 15 years I feel for this family. I open the cottage up every year and the first thing is to put up the American Flag..

In reading the paper, I think the lady made an error. I think she first should have gone after the people that damaged the flag as it was there fault. In one sense she had permission to put up a pole and fly the flag, but then because a company accidently broke her flag she wanted the association to pay for it. I do not blame the association for refusing to pay for it and perhaps can see why they tried to enforce the rules.

If I understand the way associations like this work, they are voted into office, and therefore can be voted out, just like the one on 1600 Penn. Ave. who would prefer that the American Flag not be flown because then he might just be choosing sides.

All aside my hope is that she gets to put the flag back up.

[sa meredith]

Folks...did many of the posters here take the time to read the article?
1st of all, the word "Flag" is not at all written in the rule. It is simply considered to fall under one of the categories. So, the association had some idea about the law when writing the rule.
Now, I completely support her right to fly the flag...but can see the associations point. Remember folks, the association is made up of people, human beings, with thoughts and feelings just like those of you fine folks. So, when you read something like this, instead of the mob mentality that often exists on this forum (you know what I mean....the whole, "ya..he's a bad guy, LET'S GET HIM!" mentality. Remember the "lobster roll is bad" at Waldo Pepper...everyone piled on, until someone looked into it and it was true) maybe take a second, and say, "well this is strange. There has to be another side to the story. People can't be this cruel". Read the article.
The flag was damaged by people removing snow from the roof...they probably did not even noticed they did it. Everyone remember all the snow and ice this winter??? It makes me question, if we are all so patriotic...did this woman go out and remove the flag every day that it snowed and rain this winter as she should have? And, the article reads that the condo people did go out and find it for her. Ok, they left it on the porch...maybe a poor choice, but it does not make them devils.
Also, it reads that she ask for, and received, permission to violate the rule and display personal property outside (remember...in a condo, you own walls in....everything walls out, including the yard is common area. Everyone owns it.) When she filed the law suit, I'm sure the board simply thought..."oh boy. Here we go. This is why we had the rule in the first place".
I support and encourage this woman's right to fly the flag.
However, technically is was something she asked permission for (therefore acknowledging that is was possibly against the rules). After getting the OK, I believe the burden would fall on her to keep it out of harm's way, and to care for it, as it was on EVERYONE'S property.
Let's go easy on the board. Read the rule. They are people just like everyone here. I'm quite sure they are not anti-USA evil doers, trying to keep flags from flying. I'm also quite sure they are not lawyers... and are simply doing what they think is right.
OK...now resume your piling on.

[jrc]

I think this will turn out to be a person at the management company over-reaching on a condo rule to avoid paying for damage they caused.

I used to have place in Samoset and in general it was well run, but people from the managment company often put "ease of doing their job" ahead of any written rules. They would invent rules to suit the circumstances and claim misunderstanding later.

As repeorted, the condo rules do not prohibit flags and as I remember the place was awash in flags, not just Old Glory but decorative flags and especially college team flags.

[songkrai]

She will be allowed to fly the flag.

The rest of the story:

The condo association did allow her to have two flags.

She apparently wants the condo association to pay for the flag. The flag was damaged when the condo association hired workers to shovel snow off the roofs. Now we get into the nitty gritty of the condo rules and responsibilties of damage when workers shovel snow off roofs. Who pays? The condo association or insurance. Or both. Or neither.

Any condo people out there? Who is responsible for damage on the outside of building? Who is supposed to pay for damage outside of building?

I'm gonna guess here and only a guess but I think the condo association should have just purchased a new flag and be done with it. Absorb the cost and move on to more and better things for the association to worry about.

But this story seems to be a microcosm of life living in a condo association or HOA. The rules normally are that you cannot make any changes to the outside of the walls and common areas and sometimes your own yard if one comes with unit. You buy into this. You agree to the rules when you buy into this. This lady did agree to the rules. She has to abide by the rules or move.

I do think that there are laws that allow a flag - and the size of the flag can be set by the condo association. And I think that the condo association cannot ban satellite dishes either - that one has been to court too.

Also reminds me of the case in Sandwich in the Historic District where the lady painted the American flag on the front of her entire house. The Sandwich Historic committee banned this and told her to repaint her house in the proper approved colors for the historic district. In the end though, she won out and the flag is still painted on the front of her antique home in Sandwich.

[Just Sold]

Originally Posted by songkrai

She will be allowed to fly the flag.

The rest of the story:

The condo association did allow her to have two flags.

She apparently wants the condo association to pay for the flag. The flag was damaged when the condo association hired workers to shovel snow off the roofs. Now we get into the nitty gritty of the condo rules and responsibilties of damage when workers shovel snow off roofs. Who pays? The condo association or insurance. Or both. Or neither.

Any condo people out there? Who is responsible for damage on the outside of building? Who is supposed to pay for damage outside of building?

I'm gonna guess here and only a guess but I think the condo association should have just purchased a new flag and be done with it. Absorb the cost and move on to more and better things for the association to worry about.

But this story seems to be a microcosm of life living in a condo association or HOA. The rules normally are that you cannot make any changes to the outside of the walls and common areas and sometimes your own yard if one comes with unit. You buy into this. You agree to the rules when you buy into this. This lady did agree to the rules. She has to abide by the rules or move.

I do think that there are laws that allow a flag - and the size of the flag can be set by the condo association. And I think that the condo association cannot ban satellite dishes either - that one has been to court too.

Also reminds me of the case in Sandwich in the Historic District where the lady painted the American flag on the front of her entire house. The Sandwich Historic committee banned this and told her to repaint her house in the proper approved colors for the historic district. In the end though, she won out and the flag is still painted on the front of her antique home in Sandwich.

Yes the condo association can set the size, location, responsibility for requirements but cannot deny of the displaying an American Flag. Since a contractor damaged the flag they should be responsible for the cost of repair/replacement but that would go through the HOA as they would be contractors hired by them through the management company. BTW I remember that Evergreen Management has their own maintenance people on staff that are used for certain work in HOA's.

As for satilite dishes they have to be allowed but again the HOA can set rules/guidelines as to preferred location, responsibility etc. I know this first hand as I wrote such a rule for a HOA I was an owner in years ago.

[Heaven]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

OK...now resume your piling on.

Maxum wrote:
"Those pompous liberals, if this country and it's flag represents something that you detest so much, I encourage, no I beg you, please leave and take your ideas with you."

And you're sure the condo board is comprised of all liberals? And are you sure that no liberals have ever served their country in the same manner as your relations? You are cutting a rather wide swath.

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Maxum wrote:
"Those pompous liberals, if this country and it's flag represents something that you detest so much, I encourage, no I beg you, please leave and take your ideas with you."

And you're sure the condo board is comprised of all liberals? And are you sure that no liberals have ever served their country in the same manner as your relations? You are cutting a rather wide swath.

...reading way to much into this tiny little story.
Here's what I read: "Someone broke something of mine....quick...gotta sue!"
Everyone else is talking about the flag...simply forgetting, in the article (if people even read it) she ask for, and was INDEED given permission to fly it. And then it caused problems. And then she wants to sue.
It's like this...you ask me if you can park your car in my driveway...I say sure. Someone working on my house scatches your car...you blame me. You sue me.
You then ask if you can continue putting your car in my driveway. At some point, I am going to say..."maybe you should put the car somewhere else."

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Maxum wrote:
"Those pompous liberals, if this country and it's flag represents something that you detest so much, I encourage, no I beg you, please leave and take your ideas with you."

And you're sure the condo board is comprised of all liberals? And are you sure that no liberals have ever served their country in the same manner as your relations? You are cutting a rather wide swath.

Never heard of any conservatives that support the banning of flying or displaying the American Flag. If the shoe fits....

Oh there are plenty of liberals in the military, but not many last once they get a little taste of the real world as those ideals just simply don't stand up to reality.

[Winnipesaukee]

Hope she gives these people hell!!!

Hooah!!

[Lakesrider]

As far as damages go....I had my car parked in my driveway in Coburn Woods in Nashua. They were shingling a house next door. They threw shingles off the roof and some got stuck in a tree outside my house. They fell out of the tree and landed on my hood. Slid off my hood leaving scratches on a car with only 1500 miles. They paid $900.00 to get the scratches taken out.

If they hired someone to shovel a roof and any damage happened to any property, the shovelers should have paid. And not for nothing, but if I had ever damaged someones American/Italian/Spanish, or whatever flag they had out, I would have immediately, without even thinking about it, replaced it. Had they done so, this would have never made the news, and all would be well in Condo land. And if they didn't know it, I am sure they do now. Do the right thing and replace it.

And it isn't like she is going after $100 million dollars. She is looking for replacement costs of the flag. A flag that was damaged twice by Condo Association hired workers. They didn't even pay or fix it the first time it was damaged. $80.00? Geesh. Made a Federal case out of $80.00. Good for her. (What do you bet those roof shoveling guys weren't even Americans? I'd love to know.)

BTW This is from the Flag Code....

§6. Time and occasions for display

It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.
The flag should be hoisted briskly and lowered ceremoniously.
The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is inclement, except when an all-weather flag is displayed.
So she did not have to bring it in if she didn't want to, if it was an all weather flag that is.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=12599969

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

As far as damages go....I had my car parked in my driveway in Coburn Woods in Nashua. They were shingling a house next door. They threw shingles off the roof and some got stuck in a tree outside my house. They fell out of the tree and landed on my hood. Slid off my hood leaving scratches on a car with only 1500 miles. They paid $900.00 to get the scratches taken out.

If they hired someone to shovel a roof and any damage happened to any property, the shovelers should have paid. And not for nothing, but if I had ever damaged someones American/Italian/Spanish, or whatever flag they had out, I would have immediately, without even thinking about it, replaced it. Had they done so, this would have never made the news, and all would be well in Condo land. And if they didn't know it, I am sure they do now. Do the right thing and replace it.

And it isn't like she is going after $100 million dollars. She is looking for replacement costs of the flag. A flag that was damaged twice by Condo Association hired workers. They didn't even pay or fix it the first time it was damaged. $80.00? Geesh. Made a Federal case out of $80.00. Good for her. (What do you bet those roof shoveling guys weren't even Americans? I'd love to know.)

BTW This is from the Flag Code....

§6. Time and occasions for display

It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.
The flag should be hoisted briskly and lowered ceremoniously.
The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is inclement, except when an all-weather flag is displayed.
So she did not have to bring it in if she didn't want to, if it was an all weather flag that is.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=12599969

Small correction Lakesrider: The flag shall be displayed from 0800 (8:00 AM) until Sunset.

I dislpay the flag every day..unless it will be windy or otherwise detrimental to the welfare of the flag. NB

[Lakesrider]

My flag is displayed 24-7-365. It is however lit all night long as well. (Unless a Hurricane is coming it is up.) Just like the Flags at the Nations Capitol. Jus' sayin'.
On Pearl Harbor Day I fly a Flag that was flown over the USS Arizona Memorial, on The Fourth of July, I fly a Flag that was Flown over the Nations Capitol Building. On Dec 26th, I fly a flag that was flown over the Iwo Jima Memorial. My Father was on Iwo Jima. Dec 26th is the day he passed away.
So you see the Flag means quite a bit to me.

[trfour]

Any condo group's ( and or any other group ) that would try in any way to disallow the display of our American Flag, needs to be brought before a Military Court and a' mediately deported. Put them directly on frontline, to delouse, tick and flea them.

One of my very first projects at the camp, back in 1992 was to restore an old rusted flagpole that took some work with an oxyacetylene torch to take apart, repair, paint and restore. The camp was high on a hill up and just off Paugus Bay, and there was always a pleasant breeze, enough in fact to ware out some O'L Glories, but none were lost to us old faithfuls!

MyFamily has a very long and prestigious history of defending our Country, and in fact goes back to the Revolutionary War.

Now, ( Under unclassified info ), I was approached by the Army at 17 years old to visit a Local National Guard seminar being held in East Bridgewater Ma. at the time. During this seminar, there was an Army Commander General , and I got to speak words with him, and also, he was a ( less than what I would put my trust in, at the time ), and I left that conversation telling him to draft me.
So, low and behold when I turned twenty, I got an official notice to report to Boston for induction ceremonies that put me into the United States Army.

I was so proud to get to serve our Country. We were all stuffed on ( an very overloaded Super four reciprocal engine powered Constellation aircraft, and we were running out of runway, when suddenly the right wing caught fire, and eventually it blew out. I think that the pilot was more headstrong in delivering us to Fort Dix NJ for BOOTCamp!

Yes, and even today, it ain't what Y'All read in the news papers!

So, I successfully graduated from Boot-camp, got orders to go to Fort Gordon Georgia for AIT ( Advanced Individual Training ) and I had my mind made up that I was going to Vietnam to fight for our very own butt's.

By the time I graduated from AIT, I found myself in the Signal Corps, and received Orders to go directly to Germany where I was and appointed to an isolated radio relay site on the East Boarder there where and we got to lookout and see every day, the Russian missiles pointed directly at US. Now let me splain, even though we used what they call ( line of sight antennas ) back in them days, it was an every day Tums or pepto'abismal day for Us, as they could find and lock on to our signal. We were well aware that we had less than a machine gunner's life expectancy on the front line of any war, should the _ _ _ _ hit the fan. Less than 6 seconds, should anyone want to do the math.

Terry
______________________________

[MAXUM]

I was deployed right after I enlisted, first stop out of our home port was Hawaii. First thing I did after getting off the boat was to go over to the USS Arizona memorial. Here I am 18 years old, kind of a know it all punk *** kid, but let me tell you standing there on that memorial was one of the most sobering experiences I've ever had. I encourage anyone who ever takes a trip to Hawaii to take the time to see and experience it for yourself.

Anyone can put on the uniform but a true hero dies wearing one!

[fpartri497]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

I was deployed right after I enlisted, first stop out of our home port was Hawaii. First thing I did after getting off the boat was to go over to the USS Arizona memorial. Here I am 18 years old, kind of a know it all punk *** kid, but let me tell you standing there on that memorial was one of the most sobering experiences I've ever had. I encourage anyone who ever takes a trip to Hawaii to take the time to see and experience it for yourself.

Anyone can put on the uniform but a true hero dies wearing one!

A very sobering expieriance Indeed, I visited the memorial In 1990 It Is truly unforgettable. God bless those who gave thier lives.

[BroadHopper]

Seems like the Board is more concern about aesthetics and conformity rather than sensibility and the law.

1. My condo asscociation will not allow the display of any flags or banner. I'm going to bring the law up in the next meeting.

2. The association will not allow foundation vents. My unit require sills and beams replacements because of excess moisture in the crawl space. My insurance company pointed out that it is the responsibility of the association to replace the beams and sills. The board refused at first but their lawyer ruled the insurance company was right.

3. The association refused to allow the intake/exhaust of new efficiency boilers to be attached to exterior walls. The HVAC installers have to use the existing chimneys, even though it is not feasible to do so according to the manufacturers.

It's not Samoset. They are a good number that needs to conform to change.

[lawn psycho]

I don't know why the HOA just doesn't go get a flag for her an be done with it. The longer it festers the worse it gets and it's not that big a deal. Ask her to move the flag to a better spot if necessary. I'm sure someone can get a screwdriver to relocate it.

In NC the HOAs have major power including placing liens on houses for non-payment, etc. They have serious clout. I don't know how NH HOA laws are written.

I got on my board in NC because I hated how the grounds were kept and because our developer was not doing what he was required to do. I was elected president and then got the honor of having no life as it was like a second job with meetings, people coming to my house, calling my house, dealing with the HOA management company, budget, contractors, etc. It was a 400 single home subivision with common areas, some private steets, a pool, and I felt like a city manager

What I found was that most people don't understand what an HOA does and how it operates. If it truly bothers you about having restrictions on what you can and can not do with your home then don't go into an HOA. They can be both a blessing and a curse.

As far as covenants, I don't care what it is but when you take title of that property you do so with the understanding of what restrictions are attached too it. So to come in and complain after-the-fact will be met with my skepticism. Understanding the courts ruling, the law says American flags can be displayed so it's no use even waging that battle for an HOA.

Unfortunately from a legal standpoint many HOA restrictions are not very well-written to the point of being unenforceable. It you want to restrict something, spell it out in absolute language as if you leave ANY part subject to interpretation you're hosed if it gets challenged. Many covenants start with the developer sloppily getting them drafted or copied from a boiler plate before even one home gets built. The homeowners start moving in and most people comply to their intent and then you get "that guy" who will test the waters. In our HOA, fencing materials and styles was the hot item.

As for the landscaping, I got a landscaper to do it at at 75% of the cost of the national company and we got way better service and better plants.

Our developer got a huge fine from the City and had to rebuild the sedimentation ponds around the subdivision to current standards. Needless to say I was not his favorite person during board meetings.

When the annual meeting came up the next year I resigned and my wife made me promise never to get involved in an HOA board again

[samosetguy]

I own at Samoset. Unfortunately, I don't know the Farnell's.

I have an American flag on my condo and I've never been told to take it down. As the article points out, there are flags everywhere in the complex on units. At least four units in my building alone also have flags. Personally, I don't believe there is any rule against flags. I think (speculation alert!) this is a misunderstanding that accidently originated by the management company. The rule that was approved in Dec 2010 is (I believe) an affirmation of the same rule that has existed for years (i.e. nothing new to prohibit flags).

I think the only issue is who should pay for the broken flag. I totally agree with Mrs. Franell's frustration. I would feel the same way. However, I would also point out that it appears both times the flag was broken it was while the association was trying to preserve the structure of her specific unit (i.e. new roof and removing excess snow). So, I think it's a little unfair of the Union Leader to paint the association and Board as this evil group of people. I think their intentions are in the right place. To me it sounds like the contractor performing the work should pay for the flag.

At this point, if I were on the Board, I would remiburse her the cost of the flag because an $80 flag will probably avoid $8k in legal fees.

In my opinion, Samoset is a great community of people. I hope the Franell's are not turned off too badly and I look forward to thanking them for their service to our country when I meet them.

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by samosetguy

I own at Samoset. Unfortunately, I don't know the Farnell's.

I have an American flag on my condo and I've never been told to take it down. As the article points out, there are flags everywhere in the complex on units. At least four units in my building alone also have flags. Personally, I don't believe there is any rule against flags. I think (speculation alert!) this is a misunderstanding that accidently originated by the management company. The rule that was approved in Dec 2010 is (I believe) an affirmation of the same rule that has existed for years (i.e. nothing new to prohibit flags).

I think the only issue is who should pay for the broken flag. I totally agree with Mrs. Franell's frustration. I would feel the same way. However, I would also point out that it appears both times the flag was broken it was while the association was trying to preserve the structure of her specific unit (i.e. new roof and removing excess snow). So, I think it's a little unfair of the Union Leader to paint the association and Board as this evil group of people. I think their intentions are in the right place. To me it sounds like the contractor performing the work should pay for the flag.

At this point, if I were on the Board, I would remiburse her the cost of the flag because an $80 flag will probably avoid $8k in legal fees.

In my opinion, Samoset is a great community of people. I hope the Franell's are not turned off too badly and I look forward to thanking them for their service to our country when I meet them.

FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY...we have a post from someone who actually took the time to examine the situation, and read the article.
The amount of poeple who just pile on in the mob mentally in this forum boggles my mind. How this thread became about anti-USA, anti-military, anti-flag flying...is simply comical. Laugh out loud funny.
It was clearly stated that flags were displayed all over the complex, and that this woman was given permission to fly her flag. The issue was really the damage, and then small clames court. And the suggestion she re think putting her flag back...which makes sense. The board does not want a string of law suits.
But what people saw/read, was somehow and anti-USA condo board....which gave posters the chance to jump up, pound their chest as they proclaimed how patriotic they are, and demand the board member be dragged thru the streets and shot at dawn.
It seemed quite obvius from the start, that the issue was the fact that she placed a personall item on common property, it was damaged, and she handled it by sueing. And then, she wants to put personnal property back on common property. The fact that the property was a flag was not the issue.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY...we have a post from someone who actually took the time to examine the situation, and read the article.
The amount of poeple who just pile on in the mob mentally in this forum boggles my mind. How this thread became about anti-USA, anti-military, anti-flag flying...is simply comical. Laugh out loud funny.
It was clearly stated that flags were displayed all over the complex, and that this woman was given permission to fly her flag. The issue was really the damage, and then small clames court. And the suggestion she re think putting her flag back...which makes sense. The board does not want a string of law suits.
But what people saw/read, was somehow and anti-USA condo board....which gave posters the chance to jump up, pound their chest as they proclaimed how patriotic they are, and demand the board member be dragged thru the streets and shot at dawn.
It seemed quite obvius from the start, that the issue was the fact that she placed a personall item on common property, it was damaged, and she handled it by sueing. And then, she wants to put personnal property back on common property. The fact that the property was a flag was not the issue.

sa meredith,

The below statement which was in the article is what got us veterans upset:

"She received a letter dated March 29 from Lorie Paquette, association manager. It indicated the condominium association was not going to reimburse Farnell, and she was not going to be able to fly Old Glory anymore.
"Flags are a direct violation of the rules and regulations and therefore, the association shall not be responsible for replacement," Paquette wrote."

Here is a little side note to your post:
IMHO if a veteran wants to pound his chest on this forum then by all means he should proudly be allowed to do that.

[Mr. V]

I wonder why she hired a lawyer to argue her case for her in Small Claims Court?

Out here, attorneys are NOT allowed to represent litigants in SCC.

Is it different in NH?

[beaubein]

To the fine residents of Samoset.........As a retired Special Forces Medic...seeing many conflicts across the world, proclaimed war, and insurgency, I found my last base camp overlooking our beautiful lake and mountains.Please..... raise old glory...all of you. Show us, New Hampshire and the Nation how patriotic you can be. Laws, suing, money and politics aside it is about those who sacrifice, now and in the past in Vietnam, Iwo Jima, and Normandy...raise the US flag, all of you, raise it high for those of us who don't live at Samoset....your time is now.

Best regards to all,
Pat

[tis]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

I wonder why she hired a lawyer to argue her case for her in Small Claims Court?

Out here, attorneys are NOT allowed to represent litigants in SCC.

Is it different in NH?

Yes, lawyers can represent in small claims in NH.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by tis

Yes, lawyers can represent in small claims in NH.

Interesting.

Sort of defeats the whole purpose of SCC, which is supposed to be a People's Court.

Again, out here, if a litigant wants a lawyer to be involved, they must transfer the case from SCC to District Court, which is also able to here "smaller" (dollar amount) cases such as this one.

Just goes to show how different states do things differently.

[songkrai]

"Flags are a direct violation of the rules and regulations and therefore, the association shall not be responsible for replacement," Paquette wrote.

Semantics. And all Paquette stated was that she would not be reimbursed.

And flags are probably not allowed. But probably to prevent all sorts of flags. College flags. Boat flags. Fraternity flags. And on and on. Even the Communist flag. Who knows what flags people will attempt to put up.

But in all reality, this boards should have privided her with a new US flag. This never should have gone this far.

Me, I think the board should pick one size, one bracket type, and provide the US flag to ALL residents of this complex. And be done with it.

All this shows is how petty HOA's can be.

[Bigstan]

She won completely - apology, reimbursement, the whole 9 yards.

Thank God, for a while it was almost shameful to be a resident there......I feel much better now.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...4-33c42d0d8bf1

[WakeboardMom]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Maxum wrote:
"Those pompous liberals, if this country and it's flag represents something that you detest so much, I encourage, no I beg you, please leave and take your ideas with you."

And you're sure the condo board is comprised of all liberals? And are you sure that no liberals have ever served their country in the same manner as your relations? You are cutting a rather wide swath.

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Oh there are plenty of liberals in the military, but not many last once they get a little taste of the real world as those ideals just simply don't stand up to reality.

I was going to say, "That statement's not completely true," but you did say,
"not many last once they get a little taste of the real world." I have a wonderful son who served 6 years active duty in the USN (iincluding 4 6-month deployments to the Persian Gulf between '03 and '06) and 2 years reserve. He retains some liberal political views and I would challenge you to read his blog to get some perspective on those ideologies.

http://rocketpoweredbutterfly.com/

(Apologies for the highjack of the thread, but I didn't want to let the comments above go unaddressed. Thank you for your understanding.)

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Oh there are plenty of liberals in the military, but not many last once they get a little taste of the real world as those ideals just simply don't stand up to reality.

My experience, after finishing 24 years in uniform last August, is that this is not an accurate statement. As far as political views are concerned, there's a good healthy representation of all perspectives in the military, even among the folks who make a career out of it.

By the way, thank you for your service, shipmate.

[MAXUM]

OK maybe I should put that comment into a little more context, based on my observations... which is not necessarily a representation of everyone who serves. However I will admit that most vets I've met since I got out share more in common politically than not.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

OK maybe I should put that comment into a little more context, based on my observations... which is not necessarily a representation of everyone who serves. However I will admit that most vets I've met since I got out share more in common politically than not.

Yes, we are both expressing our opinions, which are both equally valid based on our own observations. I just get a bit annoyed when it sounds like someone is saying that those with a liberal tilt don't love their country or don't fit with the military. Not saying that that's where you're coming from. I get equally annoyed with those who, knowing nothing about military servcice, disparage the military and those in uniform.

I graduated from one of the most liberal of liberal arts schools in New England. The thought of any kind of military presence on campus (ROTC, recruiters, etc.) would send a good number of the faculty, alumni and current students into a tizzy. Many of them see military service as beneath the caliber of a graduate of their school. When pressed on the issue, most will admit that yes, it is necessary that the country maintain at least some sort of military capability. Why then wouldn't they want it led by the best and the brightest, such as they claim to educate? Why wouldn't they promote military service for their graduates? You would think that if they wanted a military that reflected their ideals and beliefs, they would consider joining and encourage others like them to do the same. That hypocrisy is what upsets me more than anything else.

Sorry... I'll get off my soapbox now. There are better things to think about, like the start of another boating season.

[ktucker]

I can understand Mrs. Farnell's desire to display the flag, and I can also understand the association's desire not to have the patchwork look of flags or banners or other decorations randomly displayed on various condos. It's too bad Mrs. Farnell and the board couldn't have worked together to have one large flagpole and flag erected somewhere in the common area of the complex for all to respect and enjoy.

[trfour]

Originally Posted by ktucker

I can understand Mrs. Farnell's desire to display the flag, and I can also understand the association's desire not to have the patchwork look of flags or banners or other decorations randomly displayed on various condos. It's too bad Mrs. Farnell and the board couldn't have worked together to have one large flagpole and flag erected somewhere in the common area of the complex for all to respect and enjoy.

Dear Ktucker.
Although to consider you're point, as a defender of our flag, we the people will decide when and where Our American Flag will be displayed.
( in other words ), Look under the hood.

Always and include the American flag that my and our very forefather's fought for. It in no way is something that you, or anyone else ( has more right to than what we stand for ). Amazing how Some among continue to try to thwart progress here! My hope is that The dark ages are gone ( and yet by some try to reinvent the wheel ) so to speak.

Very thankfully our views have moved on to a more modern than prehistoric, and on to a more advanced stage, from the there, ( did I say that ), age from where we all came from.
A reminder to all,

What does this mean in plain language? It means you have the right to fly the American flag within your space in a condominium or any development with a homeowners association and the association can’t stop you. If the association has a rule that appears to prohibit display of the flag of the United States, a court will either interpret the rule in such a way as to allow the homeowner to display the flag or strike down the rule.

Since a homeowners association may not apply rules in an arbitrary and capricious manner, a homeowners association could have felt that if they allowed people to fly the American flag, they would have had to allow people to display banners for sports teams and other banner and signs. While an association could have, (and should have), allowed American flags without allowing banners for sports teams before this new law, California Civil Code Section 1353.5 clears up any confusion. We have to remember that the people who run our homeowners associations are volunteers who often have very limited legal knowledge and unfortunately lawyers who are usually paid by the hour have a financial incentive to make legal matters seem more complicated and encourage litigation.

Also, re read my post # 31 in this thread...
Absolutely Ludicro'US, In Our Own Country...
Any condo group's ( and or any other group ) that would try in any way to disallow the display of our American Flag, needs to be brought before a Military Court and a' mediately deported. Put them directly on frontline, to delouse, tick and flea them.

One of my very first projects at the camp, back in 1992 was to restore an old rusted flagpole that took some work with an oxyacetylene torch to take apart, repair, paint and restore. The camp was high on a hill up and just off Paugus Bay, and there was always a pleasant breeze, enough in fact to ware out some O'L Glories, but none were lost to us old faithfuls!

MyFamily has a very long and prestigious history of defending our Country, and in fact goes back to the Revolutionary War.

Now, ( Under unclassified info ), I was approached by the Army at 17 years old to visit a Local National Guard seminar being held in East Bridgewater Ma. at the time. During this seminar, there was an Army Commander General , and I got to speak words with him, and also, he was a ( less than what I would put my trust in, at the time ), and I left that conversation telling him to draft me.
So, low and behold when I turned twenty, I got an official notice to report to Boston for induction ceremonies that put me into the United States Army.

I was so proud to get to serve our Country. We were all stuffed on ( an very overloaded Super four reciprocal engine powered Constellation aircraft, and we were running out of runway, when suddenly the right wing caught fire, and eventually it blew out. I think that the pilot was more headstrong in delivering us to Fort Dix NJ for BOOTCamp!

Yes, and even today, it ain't what Y'All read in the news papers!

So, I successfully graduated from Boot-camp, got orders to go to Fort Gordon Georgia for AIT ( Advanced Individual Training ) and I had my mind made up that I was going to Vietnam to fight for our very own butt's.

By the time I graduated from AIT, I found myself in the Signal Corps, and received Orders to go directly to Germany where I was and appointed to an isolated radio relay site on the East Boarder there where and we got to lookout and see every day, the Russian missiles pointed directly at US. Now let me splain, even though we used what they call ( line of sight antennas ) back in them days, it was an every day Tums or pepto'abismal day for Us, as they could find and lock on to our signal. We were well aware that we had less than a machine gunner's life expectancy on the front line of any war, should the _ _ _ _ hit the fan. Less than 6 seconds, should anyone want to do the math.

Terry
______________________________
Attached Images

Terry
________________________________________________

[ktucker]

To Terry (trfour): I'm afraid you probably shouldn't make posts in the middle of the night - it's hard to make sense of what you typed in.

All I was trying to do in my first post was to suggest a way that the people involved could have worked together instead of suing each other.

[Bigstan]

I agree ktucker, that post makes no sense at all to me either.

trfour may wish to try again?

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by trfour

Dear Ktucker.
Although to consider you're point, as a defender of our flag, we the people will decide when and where Our American Flag will be displayed.
( in other words ), Look under the hood.

Always and include the American flag that my and our very forefather's fought for. It in no way is something that you, or anyone else ( has more right to than what we stand for ). Amazing how Some among continue to try to thwart progress here! My hope is that The dark ages are gone ( and yet by some try to reinvent the wheel ) so to speak.

Very thankfully our views have moved on to a more modern than prehistoric, and on to a more advanced stage, from the there, ( did I say that ), age from where we all came from.
A reminder to all,
Terry
________________________________________________

Oh my goodness...
Pour one for me, will you please...

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Oh my goodness...
Pour one for me, will you please...

[trfour]

Originally Posted by ktucker

To Terry (trfour): I'm afraid you probably shouldn't make posts in the middle of the night - it's hard to make sense of what you typed in.

All I was trying to do in my first post was to suggest a way that the people involved could have worked together instead of suing each other.

Some homeowner associations have rules against flying any type of banner or sign. These rules are designed to prevent banners for sports teams and all sorts of similar signs which some people would consider an eye sore. Since any homeowner association rule must be uniformly enforced, these well-intentioned rules could be “construed to limit or prohibit, the display of the flag of the United States.” In order to clear the matter up and distinguish the American flag from a banner for a sports team, our legislature passed this new law.

Since a homeowners association may not apply rules in an arbitrary and capricious manner, a homeowners association could have felt that if they allowed people to fly the American flag, they would have had to allow people to display banners for sports teams and other banner and signs. While an association could have, (and should have), allowed American flags without allowing banners for sports teams before this new law, California Civil Code Section 1353.5 clears up any confusion. We have to remember that the people who run our homeowners associations are volunteers who often have very limited legal knowledge and unfortunately lawyers who are usually paid by the hour have a financial incentive to make legal matters seem more complicated and encourage litigation.

This thread is about all of us trying to preserve our cavil and civic right to display the United States Flag anywhere here in the United States Of America... Here it is 2011, and not to speak for anyone els, Oh and yes I have been known to go off in a rant here from time to time! However,

My very heart is well documented here, and around this Great Country!
And in respect to Ktucker I should have added some space instead of a coma in my comment to his post... " Although to consider you're point... Here are my thought's as well...
Terry
_________________________________

[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Oh my goodness...
Pour one for me, will you please...

If pouring one will make that make sense please give me one too?

[HUH]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Folks...did many of the posters here take the time to read the article?
1st of all, the word "Flag" is not at all written in the rule. It is simply considered to fall under one of the categories. So, the association had some idea about the law when writing the rule.
Now, I completely support her right to fly the flag...but can see the associations point. Remember folks, the association is made up of people, human beings, with thoughts and feelings just like those of you fine folks. So, when you read something like this, instead of the mob mentality that often exists on this forum (you know what I mean....the whole, "ya..he's a bad guy, LET'S GET HIM!" mentality. Remember the "lobster roll is bad" at Waldo Pepper...everyone piled on, until someone looked into it and it was true) maybe take a second, and say, "well this is strange. There has to be another side to the story. People can't be this cruel". Read the article.
The flag was damaged by people removing snow from the roof...they probably did not even noticed they did it. Everyone remember all the snow and ice this winter??? It makes me question, if we are all so patriotic...did this woman go out and remove the flag every day that it snowed and rain this winter as she should have? And, the article reads that the condo people did go out and find it for her. Ok, they left it on the porch...maybe a poor choice, but it does not make them devils.
Also, it reads that she ask for, and received, permission to violate the rule and display personal property outside (remember...in a condo, you own walls in....everything walls out, including the yard is common area. Everyone owns it.) When she filed the law suit, I'm sure the board simply thought..."oh boy. Here we go. This is why we had the rule in the first place".
I support and encourage this woman's right to fly the flag.
However, technically is was something she asked permission for (therefore acknowledging that is was possibly against the rules). After getting the OK, I believe the burden would fall on her to keep it out of harm's way, and to care for it, as it was on EVERYONE'S property.
Let's go easy on the board. Read the rule. They are people just like everyone here. I'm quite sure they are not anti-USA evil doers, trying to keep flags from flying. I'm also quite sure they are not lawyers... and are simply doing what they think is right.
OK...now resume your piling on.

Quoted for objectivity.. thanks
I love the flag but.. if one was blocking my view of the lake, Id feel a bit differently about it

[Winnisquamguy]

CONCORD — Geri Farnell got a new flag to fly at her condominium Monday as Gov. John Lynch signed into law a bill giving renters and condo owners the right to display Old Glory outside their home.

“I couldn’t be happier,” said Farnell, who was told in March by Samoset Condominium Association administration that she could not fly the flag at her Gilford condo.

After the signing ceremony, Farnell held two boxes — one containing an American flag that had flown over the State House and a state of New Hampshire flag, a gift from House Speaker William O’Brien.

Fourth-graders from North Conway’s John Fuller Elementary burst into cheers and applause as the governor officially made the U.S. Flag Code law of New Hampshire. The children, on a tour of the State House, also got to see the bill’s author, Rep. Lynne Blankenbeker, a Navy Reserve officer and nurse being called up to Afghanistan in three weeks.

Farnell’s husband is serving in Afghanistan. After she was told March 29 that it was against the rules to fly the flag at Samoset Condominiums, she took the matter to a lawyer, who suggested she call the New Hampshire Union Leader.

The story about Farnell’s plight attracted the attention of Blankenbeker, R-Concord, who was already sponsoring a bill to prevent the very sort of difficulty Farnell was facing. The bill was inspired by Vietnam Navy veteran Gary Gordon of Bow, who had called Blankenbeker last fall about making the U.S. Flag Code state law.

Gordon, Farnell and Blankenbeker were at the State House Monday to watch Gov. Lynch sign House Bill 132 into law.

“This ensures anyone who wants to fly a flag outside their home can do so,” Lynch said.

It reads: “No rule, ordinance, or agreement of any kind by a person, municipality, or other entity shall prohibit the flying of the United States flag from a private residence owned, rented, or used by a private person. Reasonable restrictions regarding the size of the flag or the manner in which the flag is displayed may be adopted and enforced.”

Farnell said her 49-year-old husband, Troy, is part of the First Special Forces Group and was deployed somewhere in Afghanistan in February.

He has spent 23 years in the military; she also served.

“The flag represents what he does. It’s his life,” she said.

The condo association apologized in April and told her she can fly the flag.

Farnell said she was able to email her husband about the flag flap and he wrote back that “he was very proud of me.”


http://unionleader.com/article/20110...WS06/706079985