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Old 03-14-2019, 10:37 PM   #101
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I know it means not getting the federal funding but if part of the trail can be along the lake where are you could be cost-effective and the other part one along route 106 to avoid the bridge near pickerel pond and other hazards areas such as the tunnel I think I would be a great compromise. Maybe re-connect to the lake just passed Aquamarina up into Meredith


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Old 03-15-2019, 08:42 AM   #102
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Post Federal Funding

Hi Joey2665,

Federal funding is not contingent upon building along or over the railway. Money that is allocated by the Fed to New Hampshire for alternative transportation is disbursed by DOT to projects as they see fit. I would be surprised if DOT were to allocate money to the WOW trail based upon replacing the rail line.

Just saying.

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Old 03-15-2019, 08:59 AM   #103
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NH DOT can allocate the money without the need for replacing the existing railroad... Replacing the existing railroad just makes the construction costs way cheaper.

I do not see the STB, the NH DOT or the Railroad companies allowing the track to be torn up...

The WOW folks need to coexist...

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Old 05-03-2019, 03:17 PM   #104
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Getting back to beating on a dead horse here!
For those in favor of the trail and who have zero regard for the railroad, this is what must be done for the rails to pulled up (see link). The railroad line up in Littleton, NH hasn't seen a train on those tracks since 1998 and it took the New Hampshire Central Railroad, up until about 2 years ago, to file a discontinuance with the STB, to remove themselves of common carrier obligations and remove themselves of a lease agreement with the state, before the state could even petition for abandonment. It's going to be an awfully tall order (if not impossible) to get the tracks shut down to build phase 3 in place of the tracks. Alta's study was supposed to wrap up at the end of April, I'm eagerly waiting to see the results of their winter long study. I imagine it will be any day now when the study is submitted to the city of Laconia.
https://www.stb.gov/decisions/readin...f?OpenDocument
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Old 05-19-2019, 10:49 AM   #105
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The city of Laconia, has yet to go public with results from Alta's study, that they preformed over the winter. Much to my surprise however, I just came across this article that sheds light on a study that the railroad paid for. If the city ever decides to release the results of the study, one should be able to compare both.

"An analysis says the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad in New Hampshire accounts for more than $17.4 million in total economic impact annually."


https://www.visitwhitemountains.com/...gional-economy
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:22 AM   #106
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I said it before and will day it again. They will never dismantle the railroad and the only way for the WOW Trail to proceed with the next phase is for the trail and rail co coexist.


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Old 05-19-2019, 02:23 PM   #107
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The city of Laconia, has yet to go public with results from Alta's study, that they preformed over the winter. Much to my surprise however, I just came across this article that sheds light on a study that the railroad paid for. If the city ever decides to release the results of the study, one should be able to compare both.

"An analysis says the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad in New Hampshire accounts for more than $17.4 million in total economic impact annually."


https://www.visitwhitemountains.com/...gional-economy
Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:
Quote:
$17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.
Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course!
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Old 05-19-2019, 02:54 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Outdoorsman View Post
Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?



From the same article:





Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?



I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course!


That is not what the study says. Itís is saying what the 17.4 million equates too, not that it created those or is the sole reason those jobs exist.

However I do agree all studies do have some degree of bias.


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Old 05-19-2019, 03:44 PM   #109
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That is not what the study says. Itís is saying what the 17.4 million equates too, not that it created those or is the sole reason those jobs exist.

However I do agree all studies do have some degree of bias.


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The study in that article says:
Quote:
The Railroad, which operates excursions from Lincoln, Meredith & Weirs Beach, New Hampshire, accounts for more than $17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.
So, you are saying that it "equates to", but the published article says "accounts for".... BIG difference.
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:14 PM   #110
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The study in that article says:
Quote:
The Railroad, which operates excursions from Lincoln, Meredith & Weirs Beach, New Hampshire, accounts for more than $17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.
So, you are saying that it "equates to", but the published article says "accounts for".... BIG difference.
Yes it accounts for 17.4 million to the economy which equates to 350 jobs, it did not create or is not the reason these jobs are maintained. It’s just saying 27.4 million equals about 350 jobs as a comparison


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Old 05-19-2019, 05:18 PM   #111
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Yes it accounts for 17.4 million to the economy which equates to 350 jobs, it did not create or is not the reason these jobs are maintained. Itís just saying 27.4 million equals about 350 jobs as a comparison


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Nice job, stripping my quote/comments to make your point "feel" stronger! Very Conservative of you.
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Old 05-19-2019, 05:22 PM   #112
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Nice job, stripping my quote/comments to make your point "feel" stronger! Very Conservative of you.
Thank you very much I appreciate the compliment


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Old 05-19-2019, 05:54 PM   #113
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Thank you very much I appreciate the compliment


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Well I am aware that you are the "BE-ALL-END-ALL" of every discussion on this forum. So, carry on with your bad self.
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Old 05-19-2019, 06:14 PM   #114
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Well I am aware that you are the "BE-ALL-END-ALL" of every discussion on this forum. So, carry on with your bad self.
What in God’s good earth are you talking about? We are not allowed to read and interpret a study and come up with different conclusions.

Oh I see we all have to agree with you, I’m sorry your interpretation is correct and I am wrong please forgive me.

I just do not understand why people cannot agree to disagree and move on.


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Old 05-19-2019, 10:28 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outdoorsman View Post
Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:

Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course!
We will have to wait for the city to release their study, which we all know will be in favor of the WOW Trail, so let's not kid ourselves. The railroad did the right thing though, it will be up to one's own interpretation of both studies to draw their own conclusion.
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Old 05-24-2019, 04:08 PM   #116
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Article in Concord Monitor

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Basch...iders-25343268


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Old 05-24-2019, 04:23 PM   #117
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....dis stupid newspaper won't let me read it cause I already used up my five free reads ...... so, someone post the article but without a link!!!!!
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Old 05-24-2019, 06:03 PM   #118
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Mostly about the current trail; a bit about the regional vision:

Quote:
By MARTY BASCH
For the Concord Monitor

Lake Winnisquam, Opechee Bay and Lake Winnipesaukee are part of a Lakes Region triple play that will knock rail trail lovers out.

By combining Laconia’s WOW Trail with Belmont’s relatively new Lake Winnisquam Scenic Trail, cyclists and others using the paved multi-use pathways can enjoy traveling along the edge of the soothing and scenic waters with rippling mountains on the horizon. Then take in some urban charm in the form of colorful murals along the 10-foot wide track in the Lake City. There is plenty of access to shops and restaurants as well as a public beach. Benches dot the way and occasional placards provide a tad of history about the region, too.

The WOW Trail, at present, is 2.7 miles long while the Winni Trail as it is nicknamed clocks in at some 1.8 miles with its rises and turns making the out-and-back odyssey some nine miles.

Nine miles is also the planned length of the WOW Trail when it’s finished, the idea that it will keep on running from its current northern terminus in Lakeport to Meredith one day.

The Lakes Region is a popular summer tourist haven so pedaling the trails in spring is a plus before the crowds arrive. The WOW Trail has several access points including one in Lakeport, one by the former B&M train station in Laconia which saw passenger service end in the mid-1960s and another by Bartlett Beach. We chose the convenience of Belmont’s Leslie E. Roberts Beach and Recreation Area off Route 3 near the Laconia-Gilford bypass as it’s a gateway for both trails.

The first section of the trail between Lakeport and downtown opened in 2010 and has landmarks like a towering church spire on the United Baptist Church and the Romanesque Revival style Laconia Public Library, both on the National Register of Historic Places. The second section of the trail opened in 2016 and winds by the train station and Pitman’s Freight Room, a concert and function hall in a former freight depot.

Heading north, my wife Jan and I enjoyed the spin in late April and were soon hugging Lake Winnisquam’s picturesque shoreline – it’s New Hampshire’s fourth largest lake – and wound down along Bartlett Beach, favored by young families using the playground and picnic tables.

As the trail gets closer to downtown it makes good use of sidewalks that are well-marked in loud WOW colors. There were multiple street crossings and drivers generally heeded us wheeling into the crosswalks with one even wishing us a good day.

Railroad trestles, compact homes, plenty of water and lots of art were part of the landscape. Cyclists, runners, the lake, and the trail were subjects on many of the art walls. One was particularly clever, showcasing the names of the lakes in a Scrabble style while another encouraged healthy living.

Bicycles, skateboards and scooters shared the pathway with walkers and joggers but there was less usage on the Winni Trail which opened in 2016 and runs nearly two miles to Route 3 by a farm and garden store.

If WOW is relatively flat, Winni is like a sea serpent resembling a roller coaster with its ups and downs and twists. Heck, there’s an 8% grade. The trail runs from the Leslie E. Roberts Beach and Recreation Area along the southern tip of Lake Winnisquam through rich forestland and a growing community of lakefront homes with a handsome wooden fence along the trail at times. A canopied pavilion is a nice spot for a rest or a picnic before venturing up to a well-placed bench courtesy of the Belmont Rotary Club with a wide-ranging look across the water to the mountains. The trail that winds down to Route 3 with a nice look at Mosquito Bridge (the real name is Winnisquam Bridge) which crosses the lake in Sanbornton. The bridge, according to the New Hampshire Department of Transportation, got its nickname in the 1840s when it was a wooden bridge with a hump in it that resembled a mosquito’s back. That bridge was replaced in 1916 and lasted until 2006.

Though the two trails have history, they’re also looking to the future. The regional vision is to one day connect Meredith to Franklin and the Northern Rail Trail. But for the present, there’s miles of riding along calming waters.
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Old 05-24-2019, 06:21 PM   #119
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....dis stupid newspaper won't let me read it cause I already used up my five free reads ...... so, someone post the article but without a link!!!!!
Webmaster has recently stated that it is NOT OK to post full articles.

You can find it for FREE at any local library, you just have to read it from the print ad that they offer for FREE..... attached to a stick.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:42 AM   #120
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There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:17 PM   #121
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There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/
Thank you for the update. Looks like it is going to get very interesting
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:43 PM   #122
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Big meeting tonight, is anyone going? I was planning to be there till my wife won tickets for tonight's Bruins game. Only preseason but if anyone here knows hockey, then you know how completive preseason NHL hockey actually is with players fighting for roster spots.
I will not be. I feel it's a Total waste of resources. More people feel this way but are afraid to speak their mind. Please stop the WOW trail in it's place. Stop throwing money out the window.
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Old 09-27-2019, 04:31 PM   #123
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I guess I deleted my last post. Anyways, just remember "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", so people who are against the wow trail for one reason or another cannot stay silent, you can be rest assured the supporters will be loud and will fight hard, the same scenario has been played out in every state for the past 20 years and there have been dire consequence because people stayed silent (railroads have been put out of business for the soul purpose of building a trail). Going back to the 1970 and 80's the history of the rail trail and its main purpose was to make use of railroad right of ways that were no longer used by the railroads, but that all change some 20+ years ago when they started going after active rail lines under government ownership (local, county or state) and rail trail supports are getting what they want because people on the other side are staying silent.
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Old 09-28-2019, 06:37 AM   #124
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My daughter and I rode the Nashua rail trail last week. Five miles out, ice cream and a rest on the green, five miles back. Awesome exercise, awesome time with my daughter. Sure wish we had one closer than 20 minutes away.

Happy Saturday, all!

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Old 09-28-2019, 07:17 AM   #125
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Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


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Old 09-28-2019, 07:27 AM   #126
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Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


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Just thinking that it would be cool to see the train come through!

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Old Yesterday, 06:59 AM   #127
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From the Laconia Sun:

Alta Planning calculated a net total benefit of a completed trail over a 20-year period of between $67 million and $89 million.


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...nt=read%20more
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Old Yesterday, 08:32 AM   #128
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Default $6 Million Per Year!

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.
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Old Yesterday, 08:50 AM   #129
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I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.
I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.


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Old Yesterday, 09:01 AM   #130
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I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.

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I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 AM   #131
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I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.[/url]
Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM   #132
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From the Laconia Sun:

Alta Planning calculated a net total benefit of a completed trail over a 20-year period of between $67 million and $89 million.


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...nt=read%20more
A very bias report. While they cite 6M in local revenue generated by the trail, they only cite the 1M in ticket sales by the RR and totally ignored the revenue from all those train riders to Weirs/Merideth.

Anytime the Mount of the Train is running the boulevard is lined with folks shopping/eating/sightseeing/paying for parking/etc....

Also, it's bad when you scrub assets from reality to serve a small vocal crowd. Once it's gone, it's gone. Summer Camps, Trains, Amusement Parks, all things you tell your grandkids about but they never will get to experience. But boy that condo complex and storage facility looks great.
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Old Yesterday, 11:34 AM   #133
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Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!
Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located
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Old Yesterday, 11:43 AM   #134
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I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.
Laconia can be a destination city but let's leave that as there is a lot involved and to debate about.

I do agree that the WOW trail would not help restaurants in the downtown area. The main users of the trail are people exercising and I do not see bikers joggers and the like stopping in the middle of their workout to eat. Kind of defeats the purpose.

However I should state that and as I have said multiple times, I am in favor of the WOW Trail under certain circumstances such as it coexisting with the Scenic Railroad, SD/LB, aesthetically pleasing fencing along the way and without a doubt it must be completed with PRIVATE money via donations, advertising, fundraising and the like NOT public money.
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Old Yesterday, 11:45 AM   #135
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Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located
I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!
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Old Yesterday, 12:08 PM   #136
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I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!
ding ding ding There are more upgrades to come also.
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Old Yesterday, 12:41 PM   #137
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Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?
So Outdoorsman, I now reverse the question back to you. What do you have to say about the gleaming report that all but lays down a red carpet with rose pedal for the WOW Trail?
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Old Yesterday, 05:51 PM   #138
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So Outdoorsman, I now reverse the question back to you. What do you have to say about the gleaming report that all but lays down a red carpet with rose pedal for the WOW Trail?
And now I reverse the question back to you. Please answer his question.
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Old Yesterday, 08:24 PM   #139
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A very bias report. While they cite 6M in local revenue generated by the trail, they only cite the 1M in ticket sales by the RR and totally ignored the revenue from all those train riders to Weirs/Merideth.

Anytime the Mount of the Train is running the boulevard is lined with folks shopping/eating/sightseeing/paying for parking/etc....

Also, it's bad when you scrub assets from reality to serve a small vocal crowd. Once it's gone, it's gone. Summer Camps, Trains, Amusement Parks, all things you tell your grandkids about but they never will get to experience. But boy that condo complex and storage facility looks great.
Your absolutely right and the City of Laconia should not pay for the study which us taxpayers paid for. They should make the WOW trail organization pony up and pay the bill.
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Old Today, 08:27 AM   #140
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It looks like there is significant support from the Laconia City Council.

The Laconia Mayor says “The thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.”

Council member Hamel said. “A lot of good things have been happening in Laconia lately and this could be one more of these attractions that will bring people to the Lakes Region.”

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0bd807e04.html
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Old Today, 08:52 AM   #141
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I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!
New owners? That narrows it down to two places. I havenít noticed any improvements at the Laconia Local Eatery, so that leaves a place thatís been around over 30 years.
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Old Today, 09:06 AM   #142
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It looks like there is significant support from the Laconia City Council.

The Laconia Mayor says ďThe thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.Ē

Council member Hamel said. ďA lot of good things have been happening in Laconia lately and this could be one more of these attractions that will bring people to the Lakes Region.Ē

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0bd807e04.html
You know what galls me, wasting taxpayer money on the Colonial Theater. Wasting taxpayer money on a BS study, where the outcome was obviously predetermined. The revenue numbers are laughable. The construction numbers seem low.
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Old Today, 09:13 AM   #143
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New owners? That narrows it down to two places. I havenít noticed any improvements at the Laconia Local Eatery, so that leaves a place thatís been around over 30 years.





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Old Today, 10:42 AM   #144
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So, if I were to go there today, to the railroad tracks atop the embankment in the vicinity of South Down Shore, accessed via either the Paugus Bay Marina or by the Hilliard Rd-pickerel cove area ..... would I be able to walk along .....or ride a mountain bike ..... along side the tracks on the hard pack soil path that currently exists?

Is it legal as long as you stay close to the unused railroad tracks, and does anyone now use it for daily walking or bicycling? In the winter, the railroad tracks gets used by snowmobiles as a sno-mo trail.

If you are reasonably attired, and do not look like a young male homeless person, can one walk along the state owned railroad embankment with expectation of no interaction such as a local resident complaining about you to the police and the police showing up, or what?
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Old Today, 11:13 AM   #145
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FLL...

Because the railroad corridor is considered "Active - Expect a train at any time" if you were walking down the tracks (regardless of how you are dressed) it would be considered trespassing by the LPD. Sometime in December (its usually in the Sun) the tracks are listed as "Temporarily Inactive - No Train" and open for use by snowmobiles.

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Old Today, 11:27 AM   #146
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Despite what you say ..... are there any locals who use the worn path for daily walks .... just because it's there and close to where they live ..... or is it a hard and fast rule that anyone on the path, be they a 9-year old, or an 89-year old .... out for a walk along the lake, on a flat path, about six feet above the water .... gets a police visit that was phoned in by a nearby observer ..... even though the train has stopped running now till next June?
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Old Today, 11:44 AM   #147
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And now I reverse the question back to you. Please answer his question.
I did, see above so what are you getting at?
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Old Today, 12:58 PM   #148
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The Laconia Mayor says ďThe thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.Ē

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0bd807e04.html
This is where the facts get skewed, it's "not a public right of way", it's a railroad right of way owned by the state. There's a big difference.

Another one they keep referring to is: NHDOT, telling the city that "rail takes priority" as a "state law", there's no state law that I can find and I've looked for it. What the state is referring to, is its obligation to abide by common carrier regulations that they agreed to when they purchased the line from the railroad. Like everything else rail related, the states purchase had to be approved by the then Interstate Commerce Commission (long since dissolved by the government) and now under the STB.
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Old Today, 02:03 PM   #149
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Trailgoer....

This is the RSA that covers it....

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-ham...ction-228-60-a

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Old Today, 02:24 PM   #150
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Thank you for the correction. I've never heard or seen that website before, I was on the actual State of New Hampshire revised statues page and I was striking out. I found lots of railroad related stuff but nothing that I was looking for.
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Old Today, 06:59 PM   #151
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Default ..... the way to go!

Riding in a large, old railroad passenger car, built maybe in the 1950's and watching the scenery is what happens with the Winnipesaukee RR, which runs in the summer months.

REMOVING the single line of rail road TRACKS from the Meredith-Laconia-Belmont-Tilton state owned shoreline embankment and constructing in its' place a 10' or 12' wide, walking, running, bicycling, non-motorized TRAIL, paved with beige colored pebble gravel would be a totally super-duper, year-2020, public health and tourist visitor improvement.

That rail road, summer tourist passenger train is so last century, so 19th century .... while people are living longer, and staying active into their old age ...... thanks to staying active with walking, running and bicycling.

That passenger train basically does nothing for nobody, while a walking-running-pedaling shoreline trail is the way to go.

If you enjoy sitting there and watching the scenery, you can always go drive your car on a scenic tour ...... but a walking trail is so much more healthy for a tourist area happening thing to do.

Lose the train ..... and, go pedal a bicycle! When you is too old to pedal, use a cane ...... walking along with a cane beats the pants off taking that ugly train.
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