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Old 09-05-2022, 05:15 PM   #1
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Default Lights Out on the Lake!

Now that the summer season is over, please make sure to to turn out all of your lights-- dock lights, pier lights, walkway and stair lights. One of the beautiful things about the fall and winter is the near total darkness that yields a better opportunity to be away from the city and the see the stars. The less ambient light, the better.

A house light or two to deter theft, on timers, and of course, and the light you'll need to get here in the evening-- on a motion detector of possible, are all warranted.

Lights out. You'll save a few dollars on your electrical bill, the lake will be a prettier place at night, and you'll be a better neighbor, too!
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Old 09-05-2022, 06:26 PM   #2
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As the season is not totally over for me, and maybe one of the few who still really enjoys night boating, I thoroughly enjoy seeing lit up homes on the shore. Its really unique thing that Winnipesaukee offers over so many other lakes.

Some folks have very creative lighting and some have vibrant fun lighting and it really makes Winnipesaukee stand out compared to other large lakes in the northeast. There is no fun to be had boating at night on Sebago or Moosehead or Champlain, but Winnipesaukee is GREAT. A quiet wind free night putting along slowly after a nice dinner or otherwise fun day is the perfect end of the day.

Its not for everyone and in truth probably not really a good idea for most, but if you are careful and know where you are going, it can be so much fun to quietly cruise the shoreline and just look at the lights. Its a huge part of what Winnipesaukee is, a boaters recreation lake. If you want a dark lake, Moosehead is for you, but if you want to enjoy the time and effort people put into making their nightscape look great, Winnipesaukee is the place to be ;-)

I'm sure others will not share this perspective and all I can say is you are missing out. There are plenty of others places you can go to be in total darkness and you dont need to go far, but even if you only go out once for a night cruise on the MT Washington, you will come to appreciate why Winnipesaukee is so unique at night, and the shoreline lighting is a big part of it.

ATB
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Old 09-05-2022, 06:51 PM   #3
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Indeed, I appreciate the different perspective and have had that very experience on other bodies of water, sailing through Long Island Sound towards Manhattan at night is spectacular! Me, here at the lake, I prefer sitting out on my porch or dock at night looking at the stars, enjoying the quiet and the dark as a unique part of Lake W, away from it all, well, at least as away as I can get. I hope others do as well.
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Old 09-05-2022, 07:32 PM   #4
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Now that the summer season is over, please make sure to to turn out all of your lights-- dock lights, pier lights, walkway and stair lights. One of the beautiful things about the fall and winter is the near total darkness that yields a better opportunity to be away from the city and the see the stars. The less ambient light, the better.

A house light or two to deter theft, on timers, and of course, and the light you'll need to get here in the evening-- on a motion detector of possible, are all warranted.

Lights out. You'll save a few dollars on your electrical bill, the lake will be a prettier place at night, and you'll be a better neighbor, too!
Is there any nice and polite way to ask our island neighbors (that have never “engaged” with us) to turn off their two property spotlights that shine on their dock but also shine into our bedroom windows? One is on a motion detector but is on more than it is off. The other is on continuously. They appear to have left for weeks and we are here until mid Oct. it sure ruins the beautiful moonlit/starlit darkness of the fall. I don’t want to anger them in any way. I have their email but have thus far not contacted them. Should I continue to live with it?


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Old 09-05-2022, 07:42 PM   #5
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Is there any nice and polite way to ask our island neighbors (that have never “engaged” with us) to turn off their two property spotlights that shine on their dock but also shine into our bedroom windows? One is on a motion detector but is on more than it is off. The other is on continuously. They appear to have left for weeks and we are here until mid Oct. it sure ruins the beautiful moonlit/starlit darkness of the fall. I don’t want to anger them in any way. I have their email but have thus far not contacted them. Should I continue to live with it?


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I would just send a kind email, similar in tone to your message. if they are reasonable people that would not want to be lighting up your bedroom. Years ago, I did this with one of our next door neighbors in Mass via a as friendly as possible message on their answering machine. A few days later she sent me an eye mask with Victoria's Secret-type frills and a note about my sensitive nature, haha--but she turned out her spotlight
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Old 09-06-2022, 07:19 AM   #6
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Default Rattlesnake "lights out" countdown

My wife and I sit in the hot tub on the mainland and countdown the amount of lights that "permanently" disappear as the Fall weekends progress. By Thanksgiving there will be no lights facing us. I always miss seeing folks enjoying their island homes.
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Old 09-06-2022, 07:26 AM   #7
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A house light or two to deter theft
If you care to do an internet search, you will find plenty of studies that say that lighting does nothing to deter theft. Some will say that it's actually harmful as it destroys all night vision other than in the immediate area of the light source.

I too appreciate a night cruise when you can see the lights of the houses. But I also love those off-season nights when we can't see another light and the sky is ablaze with stars. Often so many that you might as well have a light on and you can see your shadow!

Finally, I'd agree on asking everyone to be careful about spotlights that point out into the lake. They are blinding. There is a house across the bay from us that often leaves their spotlight on for weeks at a time while they are gone. I can read a book in my bedroom without turning on a light.
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Old 09-06-2022, 09:13 AM   #8
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I see a lot of houses on Governor's Island that never have lights on...
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Old 09-06-2022, 09:20 AM   #9
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I see a lot of houses on Governor's Island that never have lights on...
Worse yet, I pass by Governors Island almost every trip to the lakes and I see the same houses that NEVER seem to have people at them,,, Such a tragic waste.
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Old 09-06-2022, 09:20 AM   #10
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Default Back in the days............

Night boating was popular when there are very little light pollution. You can even see the flashing lights clearly! Even the night sky was brighter.

I complain to the MP that the new LED solar lights are dimmer than the old lights. They beg to differ. The LEDs appear dimmer because of light pollution!

There are still folks that leave their lights on off-season unattended, thinking it's cool as well as a theft deterrent. NOT! Hopefully, with a 40% increase in electric rates, some may think it is not a good idea.
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Old 09-06-2022, 09:29 AM   #11
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When I was nine years old, at night during a full moon, my Father said, "Come with me".

We walked to the top of the steep driveway and he handed me a newspaper and said, "Read this", and I did.

He then told me, "You have now read by the light of the moon".
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Old 09-06-2022, 09:50 AM   #12
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As the season is not totally over for me, and maybe one of the few who still really enjoys night boating, I thoroughly enjoy seeing lit up homes on the shore. Its really unique thing that Winnipesaukee offers over so many other lakes.

Some folks have very creative lighting and some have vibrant fun lighting and it really makes Winnipesaukee stand out compared to other large lakes in the northeast. There is no fun to be had boating at night on Sebago or Moosehead or Champlain, but Winnipesaukee is GREAT. A quiet wind free night putting along slowly after a nice dinner or otherwise fun day is the perfect end of the day.

Its not for everyone and in truth probably not really a good idea for most, but if you are careful and know where you are going, it can be so much fun to quietly cruise the shoreline and just look at the lights. Its a huge part of what Winnipesaukee is, a boaters recreation lake. If you want a dark lake, Moosehead is for you, but if you want to enjoy the time and effort people put into making their nightscape look great, Winnipesaukee is the place to be ;-)

I'm sure others will not share this perspective and all I can say is you are missing out. There are plenty of others places you can go to be in total darkness and you dont need to go far, but even if you only go out once for a night cruise on the MT Washington, you will come to appreciate why Winnipesaukee is so unique at night, and the shoreline lighting is a big part of it.

ATB
My initial response to this was "NOOOO!!!!" but upon reflecting upon my night journeys it's more of a "within reason."

As others have mentioned, spotlights or excessive lighting is uncool, but some nice landscape lighting and/or warm, downward-facing lights is pretty good.

I guess my threshold would be somewhere in the "as long as I can see their faces behind the campfire."

I'm wondering if this is something The North does better on average given that Raoul's Cove, Hanson Cove, and Greene's Basin all seem to strike the balance well.

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Old 09-06-2022, 10:10 AM   #13
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Smile From 18 Years Ago...

I thought I'd look back to see if the topic was being discussed and lo, one poster echoed my thoughts perfectly. That being:

You haven't ever been awed if you haven't seen STARSHINE!


"To muddy the waters a bit further, there's a safety aspect to white lights along the shore,
I have, unfortunately, come to the conclusion that this is one of those topics where there are 2 polarized views that will never come together. I am amazed at the number of lake lots that are lit up like parking lots at night, all night, even when the residents aren't there. We have several places on our lake that have spotlights shining out into the lake, totally blinding you when boating at night. Others shine up into the trees and sky so much that you can't see anything else.

But if you talk to them, they will strongly defend their need for the lights.

I vividly remember awaking lakeside in the late Fall a few years ago at 2 AM. Most camps were closed up and there were, for the first time in my memory, no lights to be seen along the visible shore lines.

I couldn't believe how light it was outside, and got up to look at the moon. But the moon wasn't there. Just millions and millions of stars. So many that I could see the lake and opposite shores perfectly. All from starlight. It was spectacular!

If everyone could see it like this just once, they might be convinced
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Old 09-06-2022, 11:11 AM   #14
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For those who truly want to see the night sky in all its glory, I tell you Winnipesaukee is NOT the place to be.

Sure some nights its really good and better than closer to the city, BUT there are better places.

Now Moosehead Lake on the other hand gets so dark its a bit unnerving. Go there in the winter and snowmobile out on one of the trails on a moonless night and I challenge you to walk out 50 feet and find your way back to the sled without a flashlight. And the clarity and vibrancy of the moonless night sky up there is so much better than even at Winnipesaukee that its almost hard to describe.

Now Winnipesaukee on a full moon windless night in middle of the summer is so well lit that I feel almost 100% comfortable driving at the speed limit. Almost 100% ;-)

ATB

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Old 09-06-2022, 11:35 AM   #15
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My initial response to this was "NOOOO!!!!" but upon reflecting upon my night journeys it's more of a "within reason."

As others have mentioned, spotlights or excessive lighting is uncool, but some nice landscape lighting and/or warm, downward-facing lights is pretty good.

I guess my threshold would be somewhere in the "as long as I can see their faces behind the campfire."

I'm wondering if this is something The North does better on average given that Raoul's Cove, Hanson Cove, and Greene's Basin all seem to strike the balance well.

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Think have you really taken the boat to Greene’s Basin at night?!


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Old 09-06-2022, 12:03 PM   #16
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Think have you really taken the boat to Greene’s Basin at night?!


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Rock and roll, friend. I mean, we're only one cove over, so it's not that big a deal.

It's getting to the Outer Basin that's the challenge!

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Old 09-06-2022, 03:37 PM   #17
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For those who truly want to see the night sky in all its glory, I tell you Winnipesaukee is NOT the place to be.
This is the second time you've hit this "go someplace else note" on this thread. It's kind of offensive to those who have have loved this lake for decades and have made major investments to be here, whatever its imperfections.
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Old 09-06-2022, 09:23 PM   #18
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Rock and roll, friend. I mean, we're only one cove over, so it's not that big a deal.

It's getting to the Outer Basin that's the challenge!

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Oh, I forgot that that was your neighborhood. Enjoy the steamboats this weekend!


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Old 09-06-2022, 10:51 PM   #19
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This is the second time you've hit this "go someplace else note" on this thread. It's kind of offensive to those who have have loved this lake for decades and have made major investments to be here, whatever its imperfections.
Yes because I LOVE the lake just as it is and has been my whole life.

I thoroughly enjoy Winnipesaukee for exactly what it has been my entire life, a very well developed and very active boaters lake. I love seeing the boats, I truly miss the countless classic jet and "ski" boats we used to see all the time. I used to love hearing their drone running up and down the lake, with their un-muffeled and above the waterline exhaust. I love seeing the homes and cruise the coastline constantly just to look at them, and even at night. I find the lights help me navigate and given me landmarks. I enjoy talking to anyone about the lake and promoting it as a place to visit. We frequent the Weirs just to see and play at the arcades, and we make regular pit stops in Meredith, Wolfeboro and Alton to enjoy the local restaurants. Its as close to a PERFECT body of water as I have found. Not perfect, but as close as I have found.

As a child NOTHING was better than waking up to go fishing and waiting to see the boats start up and people go skiing. Next best thing was going to the marina and smelling the old white gas premix. Then maybe a trip across the lake to visit some family or friends at another cabin. We used the lake, enjoyed the lake, and we loved that the lake is was active and popular and thriving. And at the end of the day, it was a perfect nightcap to hear one last boat and see its lights heading for home, passing all the sparkling lights that dotted the shoreline.

Where as many posting here are constantly looking to turn it into something else. So for them I suggest they seek what they want somewhere else and leave Winnipesaukee as it it. As the kids say today; sorry, not sorry!

So for me, I find this a very interesting comment from you.

But you are entitled to your perspective and also to say whatever you want. So if you want to alter the lake because of your investments and feel it is full of imperfections, and want to turn it into something else, you are 100% entitled to that position. But I dont and wont embrace it and dont feel ANY responsibility to smile and nod in agreement, because thats not the Winnipesaukee I have known for well over 50 years, and I like the Lake Winnipesaukee I have known just as it is. So again, sorry, NOT sorry ;-)
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Old 09-07-2022, 06:38 AM   #20
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But you are entitled to your perspective and also to say whatever you want. So if you want to alter the lake because of your investments and feel it is full of imperfections, and want to turn it into something else, you are 100% entitled to that position. But I dont and wont embrace it and dont feel ANY responsibility to smile and nod in agreement, because thats not the Winnipesaukee I have known for well over 50 years, and I like the Lake Winnipesaukee I have known just as it is. So again, sorry, NOT sorry ;-)
This is a very selective reading of history, and a complete misreading of what I wrote. The lake is dramatically different than 50 years ago--it's the same lake in about the same way that you are the same person.

I did not propose altering the lake. I do recognize that all things in this world have imperfections.

The funny thing about your comments is that fewer lights today make the lake MORE reminiscent of the past, not less
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Old 09-07-2022, 07:35 AM   #21
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This is a very selective reading of history, and a complete misreading of what I wrote. The lake is dramatically different than 50 years ago--it's the same lake in about the same way that you are the same person.

I did not propose altering the lake. I do recognize that all things in this world have imperfections.

The funny thing about your comments is that fewer lights today make the lake MORE reminiscent of the past, not less
Sorry, all I get out of your response is nonsense.

I think my views and statements are pretty consistent, if you dont like them, thats fine. I make no attempt to stifle you. I simply disagree with you.

As far as I am concerned the Lake in it character is not any different than 50+ years ago, and probably even 100 years ago, its just busier. Its the same highly developed and very active summer destination it always was. In my lifetime it was NEVER comparable to Sebago or Moosehead or even Squam. Its always been busier, and more developed and more sought after destination for boaters and active vacationers. As opposed to the folks who seek a quiet lake without all the development, noise, activity, etc. Kayakers often tell me that will not go to Winnipesaukee, its just too busy for them, and that makes complete sense to me. And when I hear people asking others to turn off lights, I think, how sad and I love to see the lights glistening off the water at night, its a Winnipesaukee vibe. And for night boaters its a godsend. I would not want to boat on Winnipesaukee without all the shoreline lights.

Sorry there are competing desires for the lake, but its history is clear over the last 100 years it has gotten progressively more and more developed and popular and vibrant. And while even I think Saturdays are a bit busy for my liking (on the water) but if I am sitting anywhere along the shore, I absolutely LOVE seeing all the boat traffic, its FUN!

For those who seek a quiet lake without all the traffic, activity and lights, there are better destinations and that are not ever going to be a Winnipesaukee. So I suggest they take a look, they might like it better and not have to suffer Winnipesaukee as it is.

ATB
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Old 09-07-2022, 07:41 PM   #22
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Default Flood Lights

Can anyone explain to my why it is necessary to aim a yellow sodium vapor floodlight out over the lake from an island and keep it on every night, all night, 365 says of the year? Does the owner realize how far that light shines?
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Old 09-08-2022, 07:33 PM   #23
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Can anyone explain to my why it is necessary to aim a yellow sodium vapor floodlight out over the lake from an island and keep it on every night, all night, 365 says of the year? Does the owner realize how far that light shines?
Good question…there are some homeowners across the bay from me who do the same. They keep their lights on just about 24x7 shining right into my living room. I guess they are too lazy or inconsiderate to install a timer or better yet a motion sensor to automatically turn on and off the lights.
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Old 09-08-2022, 09:23 PM   #24
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Can anyone explain to my why it is necessary to aim a yellow sodium vapor floodlight out over the lake from an island and keep it on every night, all night, 365 says of the year? Does the owner realize how far that light shines?

Just not necessary and thoughtless. I hope that there is a way for you to let that neighbor know that it is unfair to you, and wrong for th eLake overall. A gentle email?
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Old 09-08-2022, 09:30 PM   #25
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Good question…there are some homeowners across the bay from me who do the same. They keep their lights on just about 24x7 shining right into my living room. I guess they are too lazy or inconsiderate to install a timer or better yet a motion sensor to automatically turn on and off the lights.
I think that we see the same problem. Perhaps we should just keep talking, and posting, about the light issue. Talk to your neighbors, post when you can. I think that a lot of folks are just not cognizant of the light issue and would behave differently if they knew it was an issue. Good luck at your house!
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Old 09-09-2022, 11:47 AM   #26
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Default Full moon cruise

Took a full moon cruise last night. Still lots of light pollution as well as colored dock lights. Some spotlights blind you when you look in that direction. A couple of red green lights which is a no-no. Is there no enforcement?

No difference at the end of the season.
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Old 09-09-2022, 02:16 PM   #27
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Shut the lights off, please. There is nothing more spectacular than the Winni night sky on a dark night. Man made lighting ruins it. More and more people are lighting up their expensive homes. They are missing out on one of the greatest features of being up here, plus ruining it for everyone else.
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Old 09-09-2022, 05:41 PM   #28
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Sorry, , I think you lights out guys are bonkers, sitting in front of the Weirs or Wolfeboro or driving past all the homes on the shore of Winnipesaukee with their lights glistening is one of the magical aspects of night boating AND staying on Winnipesaukee. Its like our Disney World!

When we stay at the lake for a couple of nights, we will often just sit in the boat at the dock or maybe hit like the Margate bar or pier at Weirs and just look at all the lights on the shore across the limits of our vision. it like a free gift that leaves you feeling happy.

I sure hope you guys aren't anti-Christmas/decorative lights too,,,

I keep decorative lights on my property all year long, and change them periodically based on the closest holiday or other significant date. Since well before Memorial day we have had a red white and blue theme going with a 20+ foot light tree hung in the front yard, lights on the house, and laser dots projected on the house. Getting ready to change over to the Halloween lights this weekend, with lots of purple and orange including lighting both sides of the walkway and then strobe effects in the dormers of the attic, etc. For Halloween I run a fog machine and run it hard! I think this year I may try to use a projector to display the original Frankenstein movie onto the fog. For Thanksgiving I tone it back a bit, and I take out the purples and leave the orange. and then for Christmas we bring back the multi color dot projectors and deploy as many old school C-9s as I can run without burning the house down or blowing out circuit breakers. The process go on for Valentines day with a pink theme and for St Pattys day with the wearin of the green! And that gets us back to the red white and blue for memorial day again.

At Christmas when there is snow on the ground, there is an aura or glow around the house that you see as soon as you turn down our street.

Light is energy, its uplifting, its fun! And at Winnipesaukee at night the lights are such a wonderful enhancement to the Winnipesaukee experience. Much like going to Disney at night, its SPECTACULAR! We LOVE it.
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Old 09-09-2022, 06:37 PM   #29
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P.S. previous post not to be confused with keeping lights on all night, I think up to maybe 11:00 PM id ok, but not all night and not flood lights shining on other peoples property or spotlights across the lake.

I'm talking about reasonable property lighting and decorative lighting.

Some old photos, not fully decorated in either photo and not my best, just what I have access to at the moment:
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Old 09-09-2022, 07:25 PM   #30
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Seriously how can you not love this!
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Old 09-10-2022, 12:53 AM   #31
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Question What Did She Expect of Beach Pond Road?

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I'm talking about reasonable property lighting and decorative lighting.
We've lived in the same cottage since 1956.

About thirty years ago, new neighbors from Albuquerque, NM, built a new house on the empty lot next door. After three years it, and its noisy construction, finally got finished.

The two attorneys installed a burglar alarm that went off once or twice a week. On adjacent Tuftonboro Neck, a similar burglar alarm was doing the same thing.

I guess we could've gotten used to it, but after a few years, the false alarms stopped on their own.

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This is the second time you've hit this "go someplace else note" on this thread. It's kind of offensive to those who have have loved this lake for decades and have made major investments to be here, whatever its imperfections.
I'm reminded of the recent complaint that trash is strewn down Beach Pond Road in Wolfeboro. She's lived there for decades and it's continually getting worse.

Drive down Beach Pond Road four miles, and you'll arrive at Wolfeboro's Town Recycling Center. (Or what we used to call the Wolfeboro Town Dump).

Couldn't she accept that Wolfeboro was going to "mature" as the years go by?

Isn't time for her to move away and let the new owners accept what has crept into that neighborhood over decades?


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Old 09-10-2022, 08:06 AM   #32
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We've lived in the same cottage since 1956.

About thirty years ago, new neighbors from Albuquerque, NM, built a new house on the empty lot next door. After three years it, and its noisy construction, finally got finished.

The two attorneys installed a burglar alarm that went off once or twice a week. On adjacent Tuftonboro Neck, a similar burglar alarm was doing the same thing.

I guess we could've gotten used to it, but after a few years, the false alarms stopped on their own.



I'm reminded of the recent complaint that trash is strewn down Beach Pond Road in Wolfeboro. She's lived there for decades and it's continually getting worse.

Drive down Beach Pond Road four miles, and you'll arrive at Wolfeboro's Town Recycling Center. (Or what we used to call the Wolfeboro Town Dump).

Couldn't she accept that Wolfeboro was going to "mature" as the years go by?

Isn't time for her to move away and let the new owners accept what has crept into that neighborhood over decades?

Realistically I only see 3 options, you can fight change, you can ignore or accept change, or you can move on if the change is too much for you to tolerate.

Compared to you, im a newbee, I've only been coming to Winnipesaukee since 1963, BUT I have endless family pictures of the family staying all over the lakes region since pre-war (the first one!) and one of the things they constantly did was change their preferred summer destination. My grandfather in particular (who came from Newfoundland) was looking for somewhere fun and lively, and after stays in various locations in the White Mountains, then Newfound Lake, Squam, etc, He discovered Winnipesaukee, and he never looked anywhere else again. In my years visiting the lake the ONLY constant has been change! Every year it gets busier, the homes grow larger, the lake is more commercial. What it has never been in my life time is a quiet, rustic, time stopping turn back the clock get away from it all place.

And like my grandfather I embrace it. My whole life I have wondered why we dont have 2 or 3 big chain resorts on Winnipesaukee, but then the realities of the seasonal aspects of Winnipesaukee probably make that not realistic.

As for the 3 options, ATB in fighting change, its unstoppable. My guess is most ignore or accept or embrace the constant and ongoing change. And all you have to do is look at the lake and the people selling out and going somewhere else to realize it is a reasonable option for some that just say I have had enough of this, its too much for me. Is there anything wrong in saying it was good for a while and now its time for something different??? Is it better to be dissatisfied and constantly fight against something you will not change (progress and more growth) and that is likely to continue. I seriously doubt there is anything you can meaningfully do to slow the Winnipesaukee development (and impacts such as "light pollution") especially when you have so many like me that truly enjoy seeing the lights and some of the other changes.

Now I dont care for all of the change, and I personally think maybe 1975 was as good as it ever got, but I realize its all 100% out of my control, so either I adapt to continue enjoying Winnipesaukee, or I need to go somewhere else.

Sorry thats just my perspective, you are certainly entitled to a different one, I just worry that anyone wanting to stop the clock and turn it back will ultimately be disappointed. I have not seen it done anywhere else.

And regardless if you are successful in getting residents to turn lights off, or they end up turning even more on over the coming years, I can assure you I will still enjoy Winnipesaukee however it ends up.

ATB

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Old 09-10-2022, 09:17 AM   #33
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I sure hope you guys aren't anti-Christmas/decorative lights too,,,
I love Christmas lighting and put up lots of it. But...always on a timer that shuts them off at a resonable hour, and not the type that would light up my neighbors bedroom a half mile across the bay.

While I understand your points, like everything there are extremes. A high wattage spotlight, illuminating the water all night long is extreme. And it usually destroys your night vision so much that you can't see the other lights that you enjoy.
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Old 09-10-2022, 09:47 AM   #34
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I love Christmas lighting and put up lots of it. But...always on a timer that shuts them off at a resonable hour, and not the type that would light up my neighbors bedroom a half mile across the bay.

While I understand your points, like everything there are extremes. A high wattage spotlight, illuminating the water all night long is extreme. And it usually destroys your night vision so much that you can't see the other lights that you enjoy.
No argument here, your expectations are completely reasonable, and yet you embrace adding a bit of spice to life in the way of decorative lighting. What more could anyone hope for!

Its the notion that everyone should forgo property and decorative lighting on an active vacation destination lake like Winnipesaukee that disappoints me.

I enjoy the lights, but with that said, I would not care for them at midnight and beyond.

I think up until 11:00ish is not unreasonable for exterior lighting that impacts others, but I'm sure there are some that go to bed sooner and then there the stargazers who would prefer no lighting after dark, as if Winnipesaukee were some much less populated and remote area.

And while I understand their desire, I also think its unreasonable and unrealistic for Winnipesaukee.

Having some middle ground like a common agreement about minimizing unnecessary lighting after some time like 11:00 PM is the best you can hope for, and even that may be unattainable. The glow from each of the waterfront towns is significant, and from Laconia its pretty intense.

Again, we can hope and advocate for some balance, but unfortunately we now seem to live in a world of polarized extremes, so any compromise seems really tough to achieve. The posts on this forum on any subject are a really good example of how strongly opinionated we can be, and how uncompromising we too often are.

Thankfully this lighting preference we are discussing is a truly first world issue and has very little significance on the legitimate quality of life issues anyone here is dealing with.

So it remains a reasonable forum discussion, but nothing more.

ATB
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Old 09-10-2022, 01:11 PM   #35
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Somebody posted the other day about Ernie Piper's Store which was at the end of Tuftonboro Neck and was also the post office. They said on Labor Day Ernie always said "Last one off the Neck, turn off the lights." He was a character, if anybody had the pleasure of knowing him, you were a lucky person.
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Old 09-10-2022, 03:57 PM   #36
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No argument here, your expectations are completely reasonable, and yet you embrace adding a bit of spice to life in the way of decorative lighting. What more could anyone hope for!

Its the notion that everyone should forgo property and decorative lighting on an active vacation destination lake like Winnipesaukee that disappoints me.

I enjoy the lights, but with that said, I would not care for them at midnight and beyond.

I think up until 11:00ish is not unreasonable for exterior lighting that impacts others, but I'm sure there are some that go to bed sooner and then there the stargazers who would prefer no lighting after dark, as if Winnipesaukee were some much less populated and remote area.

And while I understand their desire, I also think its unreasonable and unrealistic for Winnipesaukee.

Having some middle ground like a common agreement about minimizing unnecessary lighting after some time like 11:00 PM is the best you can hope for, and even that may be unattainable. The glow from each of the waterfront towns is significant, and from Laconia its pretty intense.

Again, we can hope and advocate for some balance, but unfortunately we now seem to live in a world of polarized extremes, so any compromise seems really tough to achieve. The posts on this forum on any subject are a really good example of how strongly opinionated we can be, and how uncompromising we too often are.

Thankfully this lighting preference we are discussing is a truly first world issue and has very little significance on the legitimate quality of life issues anyone here is dealing with.

So it remains a reasonable forum discussion, but nothing more.

ATB
The dramatic increase in the electric rates is partially due to the need to severely upgrade the grid to handle the increasing demand, not only in urban areas of NH, but also the increase in areas that were rural with small populations.

So any use of electricity in our area is quickly going to become a quality of life issue should they need to cycle brown outs.
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Old 09-10-2022, 04:54 PM   #37
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Thanks to Dad207 for posting a thoughtful and polite request for people to respect the beauty of the lake at night. It is also common courtesy for your neighbors who ought not to be subjected to the glare of powerful lights coming in their homes from dusk to dawn.
And then there are the homeowners who are clueless about the impact of their lights. Case in point- on Tuesday night, we were coming back from Nolan’s (the new owners are doing a good job) and enjoying a beautiful moonlight ride home through Wolfeboro bay and around marker 66 until we encountered two powerful beacons coming from the bottom of Brickyard Cove. These lights belong at Logan Airport. While they might help a seaplane trying to land at night, they are a hazard to boaters dealing with the glare. Fortunately, according to Barndoor islanders facing the lights, they are on infrequently. Preserving the beauty of the lake for next generation is a noble goal for all of us who are blessed to be here.
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Old 09-10-2022, 06:16 PM   #38
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The dramatic increase in the electric rates is partially due to the need to severely upgrade the grid to handle the increasing demand, not only in urban areas of NH, but also the increase in areas that were rural with small populations.

So any use of electricity in our area is quickly going to become a quality of life issue should they need to cycle brown outs.
I assure you the wealthy that now line the shores of southern Winnipesaukee could care less and if there is a brownout, many will have robust generators and very significant supplies of propane at the ready.

I was shocked to hear the size of generator and propane tanks my brother inlaw got for his home. It was enough power for my whole street and enough propane for like a month or maybe more. It was like throwing his money to the contractors. But he has it and doesnt seem concerned so I made zero effort to talk him out of it. And I feel he is representative of a lot of people around the lake,,, It causes me no harm and fuels the economy so what hell, good luck to him.
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Old 09-10-2022, 07:47 PM   #39
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The costs get built into the system.
Everything from service to the house to every meal you eat out to every gallon you pump and so on.

Town energy use and services... all that gets built in through taxes.
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Old 09-10-2022, 09:30 PM   #40
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The costs get built into the system.
Everything from service to the house to every meal you eat out to every gallon you pump and so on.

Town energy use and services... all that gets built in through taxes.
This is a great post--a different way of thinking than most of us use, but immediately obvious and globally important once you think about it
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Old 09-10-2022, 10:04 PM   #41
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The costs get built into the system.
Everything from service to the house to every meal you eat out to every gallon you pump and so on.

Town energy use and services... all that gets built in through taxes.
Again, those with more than enough money dont care, and it will not impact them.

Only the truly poor, the working man and retiree's on a fixed or limited budget ever suffers this cost.

I suspect the homes running massive flood lights 7/24 will never care about the cost.

The best reasonable argument for shutting off unnecessary exterior lights, is that they significantly annoy neighbors and upset their sleep. And if the goal is to put them on timers and have them shut off after some reasonable hour, one can only hope most would think that reasonable.

And thats just exterior lights, not lights inside the homes that still can be seen for a good distance across the lake if the windows dont have drapes or blinds of a sufficient quality. You have a whole other challenge getting people to shut of their interior lights.

But to just tell people you dont want them to ever run exterior lights after Labor day, or any time unless they are actually in the yard or doing something like unloading a car is not likely going to happen. Too many just wont care that some people just dont ever want exterior lights operation or interior lights left on that are viable to others at some distance.

Me thinks this subject has been beat to death and then some. Good luck to those looking to turn back the time machine to days of less illumination. I personally dont fear I will be left out on a darkened lake any time too soon.
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Old 09-11-2022, 04:05 AM   #42
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Arrow Light Pollution on The Lake...

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Shut the lights off, please. There is nothing more spectacular than the Winni night sky on a dark night. Man made lighting ruins it. More and more people are lighting up their expensive homes. They are missing out on one of the greatest features of being up here, plus ruining it for everyone else.
I've seen Aurora Borealis only once at Lake Winnipesaukee, and that occurred in the 1970s.

From what I've been reading, we're at an ideal location for witnessing Aurora Borealis in the USA. You'd think that Colorado would be better, but you'd be wrong.

Man-made lighting takes away from a unique experience: Taken from a New Hampshire discussion:

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What is Light pollution, and how does it affect seeing the northern lights?
Light pollution is the presence of excessive and unwanted artificial lighting that dominates the atmosphere, especially at night. Misdirected and too much light pollution comes at a cost – it dilutes starlight, disrupts ecosystems, and interferes with astronomical research. In addition to that, it also lowers your chance of seeing northern lights. This is because light pollution is usually brighter than the northern lights and can therefore wash out the majestic natural spectacle.
As far as "fighting change", my small neighborhood in Florida has successfully managed nighttime lighting. We have a brilliant night sky now, and it didn't involve a great many households. There, we're not a high-crime area, and were quite distant from commercial lighting. Our night sky re-appeared when Wolfeboro's Trites car dealership closed--SIX miles away!

The challenge is to contact neighbors--and the tool for spreading the word is forums like this one. The word will spread.

On another note: one out-of-state NY tenant left our 500-watt sundeck light on all night. I convinced them to turn it off because it draws moths--and the "greeting" they get clearing spiderwebs in the morning can be lessened.

Even interior lighting formerly caused bats to fly through our porch. While that really hasn't restricted our evening use of the porch, I've had them flutter close--touching my hair and ears! When our native bats are restored from their own pandemic, it should become easier to fight Lake Winnipesaukee's lighting pollution.

On the other hand, we can have a misty orange sky--like Miami!
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Old 09-11-2022, 07:15 AM   #43
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Default Aurora Borealis

was a common sight to the folks who are fortunate to see the Northern sky. Even the Milky Way was awesome. In the past two decades, I couldn't see them from Winnipesaukee. I can faintly see them from Winnisquam.

This year the sights were awesome from the public launch ramp at Lake Wicwas. Too bad landowners spoiled the view.

The town of Waterville has light pollution laws that are so effective you can see the Milky Way and AB from the center of town. If Waterville can do it, why not the Lakes Region?
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Old 09-11-2022, 08:26 AM   #44
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Never say never, but you got a really long and up hill battle ahead for this dream to come true:



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Old 09-11-2022, 08:46 AM   #45
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Default Weirs

The Weirs has always been lit up like that for as long as I can remember! Heck it was probably more lit up 50 years ago!

A lot of people have false or made up memories of the “glory days”.

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Old 09-11-2022, 09:08 AM   #46
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The Weirs has always been lit up like that for as long as I can remember! Heck it was probably more lit up 50 years ago!

A lot of people have false or made up memories of the “glory days”.

Dan
Yes it was! And it was probably just as well lit 50 years before that in the 1900ish period of NH vacation destination glory.

Again, if the goal is to minimize lighting after some reasonable time of night, who could argue with that.

But to kill the majority of nighttime lighting is not too likely to happen and many will not support it. We have worked for hundreds of years to reach the point where we dont live in a dark world. And put aside normal interior and exterior lighting, we have a whole industry built around decorative lighting for no other purpose than to illuminate our homes and special places like waterfront property.

As I have said in the past, balance is the hardest thing to achieve in any matter. And I feel certain there is balance to be had here, but it would at best reduce lighting not shut the lights out. But without the right approach, even that will go no where and the lights will stay on and we will probably only see more and more of them in the future.
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Old 09-11-2022, 09:15 AM   #47
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Here’s a pic of the Weirs from 63 years ago (1959). What’s not shown here and out of the picture frame is the massive neon arrow sign that would light up the night sky as well as the drive in sign which threw even more light! No aurora borealis here!

Dan
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Old 09-11-2022, 09:29 AM   #48
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Here’s another from 1961…
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Old 09-11-2022, 09:29 AM   #49
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Here’s a pic of the Weirs from 63 years ago (1959). What’s not shown here and out of the picture frame is the massive neon arrow sign that would light up the night sky as well as the drive in sign which threw even more light! No aurora borealis here!

Dan
WOW what a great shot, just look at those cars!

Its amazing how much the value of those cars AND Winnipesaukee have gone up since then!

As a kid it would feel like an all day adventure to go from the end of Alton Bay to the Weirs and back. But once you got there, it was like a trip to Disney today. And in truth I forget how many tank changes it took to make the round trip, or if we even could do it without refilling one or two. It didnt seem like we went too long on those orange/redish tanks, but that fuel smelled so good! I cant even imagine trying to convince my kids or anyone else today that marine premix fuel actually had a pleasant smell to it, they would think you were crazy. Happy I got to experience my kiddie years summers on Winnipesaukee.



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Old 09-11-2022, 10:30 AM   #50
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You can see the roller rink/what became the roller rink on the top floor of the building in the background.

I wrote a long piece about the Weirs on the iboat Facebook page when my dad passed a few years ago—it was an important place for my family, and very much why we ended up on Winni.

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Old 09-11-2022, 02:38 PM   #51
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Yes it was! And it was probably just as well lit 50 years before that in the 1900ish period of NH vacation destination glory.

Again, if the goal is to minimize lighting after some reasonable time of night, who could argue with that.

But to kill the majority of nighttime lighting is not too likely to happen and many will not support it. We have worked for hundreds of years to reach the point where we dont live in a dark world. And put aside normal interior and exterior lighting, we have a whole industry built around decorative lighting for no other purpose than to illuminate our homes and special places like waterfront property.

As I have said in the past, balance is the hardest thing to achieve in any matter. And I feel certain there is balance to be had here, but it would at best reduce lighting not shut the lights out. But without the right approach, even that will go no where and the lights will stay on and we will probably only see more and more of them in the future.
For the decks and docks I have been designing it has to do with the ability to approach after dark, especially in the later fall were dusk happens earlier, and be able to safely enter their home.
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Old 09-11-2022, 04:49 PM   #52
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For the decks and docks I have been designing it has to do with the ability to approach after dark, especially in the later fall were dusk happens earlier, and be able to safely enter their home.
I have remote control lighting for this. As I approach my dock, I can turn them on using my phone. No need to keep them on all the time and always available when needed.
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Old 09-11-2022, 06:12 PM   #53
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Some have upgraded to that... but the first item that we see is the addition of the low voltage lighting (largest transformer for future upgrades) with a remote for the transformer that has limited distance connected to a GFCI exterior outlet.

The little extra energy use of the 12v didn't seem to make any upgrades worth it to them.
Biggest complaint was a GFCI trip that left the lights out when they returned home... or rarely a power outage.

Solar-battery light additions from Boston Harbor seem to be the chosen solution to that problem.
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Old 09-14-2022, 10:38 AM   #54
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There are a number of ways to light a house and grounds without lighting up the entire neighborhood and lake... it's not more expensive, it just requires a little thought and creativity...

This year, a house on M'boro neck decided to install two mega-lights that shine directly at us... the first time I saw them I assumed there was emergency and they were lighting up the world... however they get turned on fairly frequently... I don't know the house or the people, but I can't imagine why they need so much light... it seems to be a navigational hazard because it completely obliterates your vision if you are going towards them... If anyone recognizes this location... please put a nice note on the door for me asking them to point the lights down... thank you in advance! PIG

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Old 09-14-2022, 01:35 PM   #55
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You can probably figure out the location by standing on your dock with Google Maps and/or Google Earth open on your laptop
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Old 09-14-2022, 03:57 PM   #56
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There are a number of ways to light a house and grounds without lighting up the entire neighborhood and lake... it's not more expensive, it just requires a little thought and creativity...

This year, a house on M'boro neck decided to install two mega-lights that shine directly at us... the first time I saw them I assumed there was emergency and they were lighting up the world... however they get turned on fairly frequently... I don't know the house or the people, but I can't imagine why they need so much light... it seems to be a navigational hazard because it completely obliterates your vision if you are going towards them... If anyone recognizes this location... please put a nice note on the door for me asking them to point the lights down... thank you in advance! PIG

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It is a shame that one truly excessive light taints an otherwise beautiful shoreline. But for the single blinding light, the picture would really be outstanding.
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Old 09-14-2022, 04:14 PM   #57
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There are a number of ways to light a house and grounds without lighting up the entire neighborhood and lake... it's not more expensive, it just requires a little thought and creativity...

This year, a house on M'boro neck decided to install two mega-lights that shine directly at us... the first time I saw them I assumed there was emergency and they were lighting up the world... however they get turned on fairly frequently... I don't know the house or the people, but I can't imagine why they need so much light... it seems to be a navigational hazard because it completely obliterates your vision if you are going towards them... If anyone recognizes this location... please put a nice note on the door for me asking them to point the lights down... thank you in advance! PIG

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That's absurd.
I also hate the lights from the water bottling plant over in the Castle property.

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Old 09-14-2022, 04:47 PM   #58
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Arrow New-to-Me: One Especially Bright Light and 109 Noise...

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WOW what a great shot, just look at those cars!

Its amazing how much the value of those cars AND Winnipesaukee have gone up since then!
Cars from the 60's and 70's (pre-emissions) have rocketed in value: Some are converted to electric power, others for avoiding dealerships, impregnability to EMP, savings in insurance, or simply to avoid the 40-minute recharging time between destinations. BTW, if electric transport is such a good idea, why has it been made mandatory?

I have three cars in line for restoration, and the restorer is backed-up for years!

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It is a shame that one truly excessive light taints an otherwise beautiful shoreline. But for the single blinding light, the picture would really be outstanding.
That's a double blinding light. I've got single blinding light that might be a converted aircraft landing light.

Strange that it's only blinding upstairs, and not terribly objectionable downstairs or on the dock. It's located about five houses west of Libby Museum, on noisy Rt. 109.

As if the lake needs another insult, the newest lighting (from "over there") 😒 is far brighter than the conventional lighting I've got--but seldom use. My neighbors in Florida have cut back on their lighting, so we can all enjoy the night sky at any time.

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Old 09-14-2022, 05:46 PM   #59
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Cars from the 60's and 70's (pre-emissions) have rocketed in value: Some are converted to electric power, others for avoiding dealerships, impregnability to EMP, savings in insurance, or simply to avoid the 40-minute recharging time between destinations. BTW, if electric transport is such a good idea, why has it been made mandatory?

I have three cars in line for restoration, and the restorer is backed-up for years!
My first car was a '64 Barracuda (it was awesome!) and I enjoyed your posts on your racing career. Separate from mandates, global warming, etc--you should test drive a Tesla 3 or S, just for kicks. I think you'll be shocked by the performance relative to even the quickest gas cars. On a fun quotient basis, they are a VERY good idea...
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Old 09-14-2022, 08:09 PM   #60
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Cars from the 60's and 70's (pre-emissions) have rocketed in value: Some are converted to electric power, others for avoiding dealerships, impregnability to EMP, savings in insurance, or simply to avoid the 40-minute recharging time between destinations. BTW, if electric transport is such a good idea, why has it been made mandatory?

I have three cars in line for restoration, and the restorer is backed-up for years!



That's a double blinding light. I've got single blinding light that might be a converted aircraft landing light.

Strange that it's only blinding upstairs, and not terribly objectionable downstairs or on the dock. It's located about five houses west of Libby Museum, on noisy Rt. 109.

As if the lake needs another insult, the newest lighting (from "over there") 😒 is far brighter than the conventional lighting I've got--but seldom use. My neighbors in Florida have cut back on their lighting, so we can all enjoy the night sky at any time.

No love for electric cars here, they are NOT clean, contrary to popular belief. And when they soon start charging astronomical fees to dispose of them when the batteries die, no one will be happy.

Our society now looks at most things in very short time-frame terms, so electric cars look good to some who trad in their cars every 3 or 4 years, but in reality the sad truth is that the critical cradle to grave aspects of battery cars are not better than gasoline from an environmental perspective. Right now there are more outright lies being published about this industry than truths. Make no mistake about it, the motivation behind electric cars is not environmental, its about money, BIG money. And the key investors are going to be beyond anything we have seen wealthy.

Maybe someday if they can invent a common metals battery it might get better, but for now they are a combination of novelty and abomination. Toys for the rich or boat anchors for the working man depending on what you can afford.

Passages cars should be the last form of transportation we touch in any legitimate effort to improve the environment.

And the idea that we could ever produce enough battery cars to meet our needs is ridiculous. You would have to excavate an area on the order of the White Mountains leveled to the ground to mine enough raw ore to make all those batteries.

So if I have lead you to think in any way I harbor any fondness for this madness, my apologies, I can assure you I look upon battery cars with great disdain. They are one of the biggest scams perpetrated on the public since the fluoridated water nonsense.

As for what some of you report as the newest trend at the lake, commercial grade flood lights on residential property, I totally understand and you have my sympathies. While I do enjoy normal and reasonable residential lighting all along the shores of Winnipesaukee, I see no need for such industrial lighting on private homes as was pictured in the post by PIG.

No doubt the first half of my post will meet with some disagreement,,, As they say, sorry, NOT sorry! I am 100% confident in my perspective, based on decades of personal experience in this industry, and a nice diploma buried somewhere in my basement that tells me I was sufficiently educated by U-Mass to know what the real truth of this matter is.

For those who want to "save the planet" the best advice I can offer is ignore all media and advertisements. Journalism ended with the Huntley and Brinkley Report. You can thank Walter Cronkite for the godforsaken mess that is todays "news" and its total lack of impartiality and integrity. Again, sorry, not sorry.
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Old 09-14-2022, 08:09 PM   #61
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Cars from the 60's and 70's (pre-emissions) have rocketed in value: Some are converted to electric power, others for avoiding dealerships, impregnability to EMP, savings in insurance, or simply to avoid the 40-minute recharging time between destinations. BTW, if electric transport is such a good idea, why has it been made mandatory?

I have three cars in line for restoration, and the restorer is backed-up for years!



That's a double blinding light. I've got single blinding light that might be a converted aircraft landing light.

Strange that it's only blinding upstairs, and not terribly objectionable downstairs or on the dock. It's located about five houses west of Libby Museum, on noisy Rt. 109.

As if the lake needs another insult, the newest lighting (from "over there") 😒 is far brighter than the conventional lighting I've got--but seldom use. My neighbors in Florida have cut back on their lighting, so we can all enjoy the night sky at any time.

Electric vehicles are more efficient.
You can't get regeneration braking on an ICE engine... and the transmission loss is not that easy to overcome once we have gone as far as CVT.

US refineries have reached what the industry feels is maximum output and predicts declines over the next decade... so the fuel has to go further.

It is one of the reasons that you see mini-splits talked about so predominately.
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Old 09-14-2022, 08:58 PM   #62
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No love for electric cars here, they are NOT clean, contrary to popular belief. And when they soon start charging astronomical fees to dispose of them when the batteries die, no one will be happy.

Our society now looks at most things in very short time-frame terms, so electric cars look good to some who trad in their cars every 3 or 4 years, but in reality the sad truth is that the critical cradle to grave aspects of battery cars are not better than gasoline from an environmental perspective. Right now there are more outright lies being published about this industry than truths. Make no mistake about it, the motivation behind electric cars is not environmental, its about money, BIG money. And the key investors are going to be beyond anything we have seen wealthy.

Maybe someday if they can invent a common metals battery it might get better, but for now they are a combination of novelty and abomination. Toys for the rich or boat anchors for the working man depending on what you can afford.

Passages cars should be the last form of transportation we touch in any legitimate effort to improve the environment.

And the idea that we could ever produce enough battery cars to meet our needs is ridiculous. You would have to excavate an area on the order of the White Mountains leveled to the ground to mine enough raw ore to make all those batteries.

So if I have lead you to think in any way I harbor any fondness for this madness, my apologies, I can assure you I look upon battery cars with great disdain. They are one of the biggest scams perpetrated on the public since the fluoridated water nonsense.
Weird how you go into a diatribe every time someone mentions EVs. And doubly funny that you think any of us would take you for an environmentalist...

I simply opined that an accomplished competitive driver would love to take a spin in a Tesla--just for fun
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Old 09-14-2022, 09:12 PM   #63
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Does he mean like a Lithium Iron-phospate?
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Old 09-14-2022, 11:35 PM   #64
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Weird how you go into a diatribe every time someone mentions EVs. And doubly funny that you think any of us would take you for an environmentalist...

I simply opined that an accomplished competitive driver would love to take a spin in a Tesla--just for fun
Interesting you would think it weird as I have been very clear that I believe current technology battery cars are a public safety hazard. Lithium is a horrible material to mine, Lithium batteries explode, Lithium batteries release toxic fumes when they are on fire, Lithium batteries are hazardous material, Lithium batteries will be a huge source of future pollution if people keep buying the current models of electric cars.

As far as your opining; why do you think I was responding to you at all when I clearly replied to the post by APS and specifically used the quote function to indicate that. If anything is weird it could your paranoia that I am replying to you in that post. But worry not, in truth I was mostly just venting about how the media and the people selling these cars are so untruthful, or provide incomplete information.

If you doubt what I say about Lithium battery powered cars, ask any firefighter about their protocols for dealing with electric car accidents and fires. If you think these cars might be a good option for you, go price replacement batteries for any 6 or 8 year electric old car. And if you are shopping for a new electric car, ask the dealer to provide you an assurance that when the battery is dead and you cant sell the car that they will take it back at no and dispose of it for you at no cost,,, NOT happening! And this is still the tip of the iceberg on electric car pitfalls.

Oh and make no mistake, I am no environmentalist in the way you probably use the term, I 100% believe the planet is here for us to use! But use, not abuse, there is a big difference. I care little about the fact that we have no Timber Rattlesnakes in Massachusetts and have eradicated them from our environment, but that is very different than saying that we should be flattening mountains to mine for Lithium.

And while petroleum (read gasoline) is a really effective product to propel our cars down the road for many reasons, from another perspective its a total waste to just burn it to move a car when it serves a much better purpose to make goods and chemicals, and medications. Especially when we already know our ICE engines in our cars and boats can be converted to run on Hydrogen right now. But thats another post that will fill its own thread if we start down that path, and we are way off topic here,,,

So to get us back on track, I say Good Evening! And by this time of night I hope most of you are enjoying darkened shoreline(s) and sleep well with no flood lights beaming through your windows.

ATB
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Old 09-14-2022, 11:54 PM   #65
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Weird how you go into a diatribe every time someone mentions EVs. And doubly funny that you think any of us would take you for an environmentalist...

I simply opined that an accomplished competitive driver would love to take a spin in a Tesla--just for fun
Oh, and dont think for a moment I am singling out electric cars, I was just as pissed of when the Vaping people were marketing their products to school age kids and telling everyone it was better than smoking!

I'll stop here of fill another page with off-topic ranting ;-)
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