Taxes on Summer Camps

[KonaChick]

Are these children's camps on Lake Winni non profit, more specifically are they required to pay taxes to the town they reside in? Just curious. I'm thinking BI has an answer to this question. Thanks in advance!!

[fatlazyless]

Many of the summer camps that had to pay property taxes no longer exist....they got taxed out.

Many of the camps still in operation are affiliated with churchs,, YMCA, YWCA, Boy/Girl Scouts of America, and are not taxed. If they had to pay taxes at the highest and best use, namely shoreline residential, they most likely could not exist.

Camp Nokomis, Camp Lawrence, Sandy Island Camp, Camp Menotomy, Appalachian Mountain Club's Three Mile Island, Timber Island's conservation easement, and Camp Wanakee (Lake Pemigewasset, Meredith), are all property tax exempt.

One local summer camp can charge $8800. for a seven week camp session, and the camper can fly here from Houston, Texas, chaperoned by a camp counselor,

Another local summer camp that is run by a religeous organization such as the Catholic, Methodist, or Lutheran Church, will have eight, one week sessions, and bus kids here from Lawrence & Lowell, Mass., on yellow school buses.

Starting in 2009, the IRS has a new form that will require certain tax exempts to answer a number of questions with regard to what they do to qualify as tax exempts. I just recently heard about this on NHPR radio.

Lake Winnipesaukee waterfront property taxes are carrying a heavy load for the local towns. Why? Because that's where the money is(except for me!). Most waterfront is owned by people from away, somewhere. Been this way for a hundred years!

Before someone calls me an ogre for wanting to property tax the summer camps, let me say that NO, I went through summer camp and believe that the summer camp experience is a terrific experience. Many of the campers would not experience summer camp were it not for the tax exempts. They do great work and deserve their exempt status. Long live the summer camps!

What New Hampshire really needs is a five percent income tax with the first 25single/50kmarried exempt for earned income, and pensions from dollar#1, & maybe even capital gains, so it can get away from the property tax, except that's another topic and for another thread.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by FLL
What New Hampshire really needs is a five percent income tax with the first 25single/50kmarried exempt, so it can get away from the property tax, except that's another topic and for another thread.

You know that you will be shot for that, right?

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

What New Hampshire really needs is a five percent income tax with the first 25single/50kmarried exempt for earned income, and pensions from dollar#1, & cap gains, so it can get away from the property tax, except that's another topic and for another thread.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

You know that you will be shot for that, right?

I can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with FLL. Not necessarily the same parameters, but I do believe that it is time for an income tax, or even a sales tax. My property taxes have nearly tripled since I bought in 1996. Ridiculous. The money has to come from somewhere, and people are being property taxed right out of thier homes.

OK, go ahead and shoot me.
BTW, I am not a liberal, in fact far from it.

[fatlazyless]

Picture this....as a sign of the times here in Meredith, NH......the Meredith Village Savings Bank has the only permitted moving electric sign in town since those signs were banned. And what has the sign been saying lately:

HIGH PROPERTY TAXES?

REVERSE MORTGAGES!


in bright electric orange letters on a black background. Get the message?

......
....oopsie and back to radar detectors, training & radar certification. Sorry for sidetracking this thread.

[tis]

Not again. Are we going to go over this whole thing again? An income or sales tax will NOT decrease property taxes. They will say new taxes will, but then in reality, just like other states, it doesn't happen. They will just spend more and still claim they need more.

[Skip]

...is the tax the other guy pays!

Originally Posted by tis

Not again. Are we going to go over this whole thing again? An income or sales tax will NOT decrease property taxes. They will say new taxes will, but then in reality, just like other states, it doesn't happen. They will just spend more and still claim they need more.

Well tis, you are safely in the majority on this one!

Let's see, for years the Republicans had a firm grip on the House, the Senate, the Executive Council & the Governor's Office.

And all attempts at implementing a sales or an income tax were soundly blocked.

Now we've had the opposing party, the Democrats, with a firm grip on the House, the Senate, the Executive Council and the Governor's Office.

And guess what?

All attempts at impelmenting a sales or an income tax have been soundly blocked.

And the answer is simple. Poll after poll, election after election the majority of the good folks of New Hampshire have clearly stated that as much as they may not like a property tax, they will not support elected officials that want to implement either a sales or income tax.

And very few things in politics are as simple as that!

[JTA]

Perhaps NH needs an income tax, but in Connecticut we were sold on the idea that an income tax would reduce our high sales tax. Now we have the income tax plus a pretty healthy sales tax AND our property taxes are at least as high as here (based on real estate that I look at on line and compare to my house in CT). Actually, the property tax seems lower here than in CT.

[twoplustwo]

The only fair tax is the tax the other guy pays!

New taxes always have a way of being swallowed up prior to their having any positive effect on old taxes we think will be decreased because of them. If I thought a sales or income tax would eliminate this donor town/school funding nightmare, I might be in favor of one, but it won't. You wouldn't want to pay a sales tax to cover our donor town charges here in Mboro any more than I want to pay a sales tax so you can live affordably lakefront. Unless, of course, my kids and I are welcome to show up at your place and use your beach.

[Pineedles]

As a former camper at belknap I would be hard pressed to recommend they lose their non-profit stature. I don't think it would be possible for middle income people to send their kids to camp if true real estate assessments were made to their property.

Also to continue the highjacked thread, I don't want a sales tax, because that will make it even more expensive for my family to enjoy ourselves while we are here. As for income tax, once you got one you'll never see it go away; and you all are right the gov't will only spend more. My only complaint is I would like to have some say in how my property taxes are spent. I don't want the same voting rights as a resident, just something more than nothing.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by JTA

Perhaps NH needs an income tax, but in Connecticut we were sold on the idea that an income tax would reduce our high sales tax. Now we have the income tax plus a pretty healthy sales tax AND our property taxes are at least as high as here (based on real estate that I look at on line and compare to my house in CT). Actually, the property tax seems lower here than in CT.

I agree.......Conn JUST went through putting an income tax on the books in the 90s and guess what, yup, the overall state tax burden went up, not down ! I am going to say it forever out here: show me ONE state in the nation that added a sales or income tax that in the long term lowered property taxes, or its overall tax burden, just one.

[Bear Islander]

The chances you will be able to tax non-profits is about zero. And even if you did manage it, I know you would not be happy with the results.

Many, if not most, will be unable to pay the taxes and will have to sell. When the huge developments start replacing the non-profits it will not seem like such a great idea.

Camp Menotomy is run on a shoestring by the Arlington Massachusetts Girl Scout Troup. The camp has over 120 acres and about 1,000' of Winnipesaukee frontage. Its the undeveloped shorefront south of Shep Browns. The Arlington Girl Scouts will not be able to sell enough cookies to pay the taxes on a piece of prime waterfront property worth close to 10 million.

So the Girl Scouts will lose a camp and we will gain a big development. Great!

The two camps on Bear are owned by the Lawrence Massachusetts Y. 1,600' of frontage and another 10 million.

However this doesn't stop at children's camps. There are plenty of non-profit schools, churches, community centers etc. that will be out of business.

How would these taxes effect the land trusts that hold incredible numbers acres in conservation land. What will Red Hill look like covered with private homes?

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I can't believe I am saying this

That makes two of us. I can't believe you want more taxes, either!

Folks may think a sales or income tax will reduce our property taxes, but take it from State after State that has tried and failed at the same exercise. Our property taxes won't go down, we'll just pay them AND the new sales and/or income tax(es). We don't even need to look at other States to know that's a bad idea. Since we started the whole school funding and donor/recipient town debacle, have anyone's tax payments been reduced? Your school portion may have been, but all we did was trade school money for police budget or recreation or a new fire truck or, or, or...

Our property-tax system isn't perfect, but it's far more cost-effective for the taxpayer than anything else out there.

[gtxrider]

We have it all! High property tax, income tax, sales tax, lottery, Atlantic City Casinos...and the state still runs a deficit.

No, taxes are not the answer spending cuts are what is needed.

[MAXUM]

That huge tax bill everyone has to pay does and should get everyone's attention, thus keeping the tax payers more inclined in holding towns and the state accountable to the money they are spending. This is a good thing.

My only complaint with the tax structure here is that there is no annual cap on the rate of increase.

Taxing capital gains and income is down right shameful.

The only tax changes I would be in favor of is abolishing the property tax and replacing it with a sales/consumption tax. One or the other, NOT both. I prefer the consumption tax as it's the only fair way to hit everyone across the board equally.

[wildwoodfam]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Camp Menotomy is run on a shoestring by the Arlington Massachusetts Girl Scout Troup. The camp has over 120 acres and about 1,000' of Winnipesaukee frontage. Its the undeveloped shorefront south of Shep Browns. The Arlington Girl Scouts will not be able to sell enough cookies to pay the taxes on a piece of prime waterfront property worth close to 10 million.

It's actually run by the Eastern Massachusetts Girls Scouts organization - slightly larger organization....still tax exempt and rightly so. But saying its run by a tiny Troop is like saying Camp Bernadette is run by Blessed Sacrament Parish in Medford....when it is run by the RC Church - Manchester Diocese.

The two camps on Bear are owned by the Lawrence Massachusetts Y. 1,600' of frontage and another 10 million.

Again not exactly - they are owned by the YMCA Merrimack Valley which runs the Lawrence YMCA and the Andover/North Andover YMCA - see where I am headed with the latter....its not run by an inner city organization, in fact when I attended Camp Lawrence it was populated with many kids from North Andover and Andover along with kids from all around Massachusetts.

Anyway - as someone associated with non-profit private schools which are currently under the gun in Massachusetts to be taxed, I can say that not only is it possible that this will happen to other non-profits, but it is likely to happen (maybe not for another decade, but it will happen.)

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Don't know if it's even legal, but I would love our town to make property taxes decline from age 65 to 80 when they would reach 0%. Making it attractive for our seniors to stay adds a lot of things to the betterment of the town and most of all would reduce the unending pressure on the schools. Yes this would raise the already high property taxes for the rest of us but not for long as the new equilibrium settled in. Having a retired couple in the 3 bedroom home down the block paying 50% would save me money as well. Win Win.

[Ropetow]

Less: Show us a list of cities, towns and/or states that, when they added a tax, or significantly increased an existing tax, other taxes fell in a proportionate amount or greater.

There are folks in the NH House (I know a few of them) who are lusting for the chance to enact a sales and/or income tax. Not to reduce our overall tax burden, or make it more 'fair', but to increase spending! They believe in the power of government, not the power of people.

You have your beliefs and are entitled to them. They are practiced in MA and ME. See how folks there like it. I was born a Mass---- and voted with my feet (actually, my car's tires and those of the moving van) and escaped to NH. I am certainly not wealthy to enjoy waterfront property on the Big Lake. I am grateful to be able to afford a 19-foot bowrider and a rented slip.

In 2002 an initiative petition was on the ballot in MA to eliminate the state income tax. Despite being exponentially out-spent (they spent less than $90,000 in advertising) more than 45% of MA residents voted to abolish the state income tax. A similar measure will be on the ballot this fall with 45% of those polled favoring abolishing the tax with 9% undecided.

Can pigs fly? Can MA become a haven for low taxes while NH becomes Tax-A-Hampshire?

Is that what you want, Less? Is that what WE want?

[fatlazyless]

Here's the answer.....fatlazylessism.....my own religious organization so's I can qualify as a tax exempt.

Unfortunately, the IRS has revised their form 990, annual tax return for tax exempt orgs, starting with 2008. The newly revised form that will be due in 2009 asks questions pertaining to what services are provided to qualify as a tax exempt.

Can I use my 1371 posts on this forum as an acceptable answer?

[EricP]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Here's the answer.....fatlazylessism.....my own religious organization so's I can qualify as a tax exempt.

Unfortunately, the IRS has revised their form 990, annual tax return for tax exempt orgs, starting with 2008. The newly revised form that will be due in 2009 asks questions pertaining to what services are provided to qualify as a tax exempt.

Can I use my 1371 posts on this forum as an acceptable answer?

I think you should do some more blogging and maybe you can count them as educational instruction.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by wildwoodfam

It's actually run by the Eastern Massachusetts Girls Scouts organization - slightly larger organization....still tax exempt and rightly so. But saying its run by a tiny Troop is like saying Camp Bernadette is run by Blessed Sacrament Parish in Medford....when it is run by the RC Church - Manchester Diocese.



Again not exactly - they are owned by the YMCA Merrimack Valley which runs the Lawrence YMCA and the Andover/North Andover YMCA - see where I am headed with the latter....its not run by an inner city organization, in fact when I attended Camp Lawrence it was populated with many kids from North Andover and Andover along with kids from all around Massachusetts.

Anyway - as someone associated with non-profit private schools which are currently under the gun in Massachusetts to be taxed, I can say that not only is it possible that this will happen to other non-profits, but it is likely to happen (maybe not for another decade, but it will happen.)

It's run by the Eastern Massachusetts Girl Scouts, but its OWNED by the Arlington Girl Scouts.

My son goes to Camp Lawrence and I have never lived anywhere near Lawrence or Andover... see where I am going with this.... I live on Bear Island, many of the island children attend the camps. I never suggested it was inner city children. And I don't think it matters much. Non-profit organizations benefit ALL of society. And the ramifications of taxing them go a lot farther that most people imagine.

[fatlazyless]

Besides the summer camps, there are other properties which are tax exempt. Ellecoya State Park, Gilford Town Beach, Cattle Landing Town Dock, Hesky Park, Appalachian Mountain Club's Three MIle Island camps, Timber Island's conservation easment, Stonedam Island conservation easment to name a few, and there are others.

I benefit from Timber Island's conservation easement because it is an untouched forest and not totally built-out with homes for a better view. I still say that Timber Island would have made a good state park when that huge island was for sale for something like 1.4 million dollars, a few years ago. If New Hampshire's state gov had a normal tax system, it would have beeen able to jump to purchase Timber Island and created a 'Timber Island State Park.'

So, there's two sides to New Hampshire very unusual tax system. From a tax revenue point of view, New Hampshire is not so much a state as it is a collection of individual towns.

Ellecoya State Park in Gilford, and Whittemore Point State Park on Newfound Lake, are both very attractive properties. Neither one was originally purchased by the state. Both exist today, because they were donated to the state by their private owners.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The chances you will be able to tax non-profits is about zero. And even if you did manage it, I know you would not be happy with the results.

Many, if not most, will be unable to pay the taxes and will have to sell. When the huge developments start replacing the non-profits it will not seem like such a great idea.

Camp Menotomy is run on a shoestring by the Arlington Massachusetts Girl Scout Troup. The camp has over 120 acres and about 1,000' of Winnipesaukee frontage. Its the undeveloped shorefront south of Shep Browns. The Arlington Girl Scouts will not be able to sell enough cookies to pay the taxes on a piece of prime waterfront property worth close to 10 million.

So the Girl Scouts will lose a camp and we will gain a big development. Great!

The two camps on Bear are owned by the Lawrence Massachusetts Y. 1,600' of frontage and another 10 million.

However this doesn't stop at children's camps. There are plenty of non-profit schools, churches, community centers etc. that will be out of business.

How would these taxes effect the land trusts that hold incredible numbers acres in conservation land. What will Red Hill look like covered with private homes?

So what happens when the non-profits sell their property? No doubt they got the land at an initial low price, if it wasn't donated. So when they sell their $10 million property, what happens?

[fatlazyless]

Camp Alton, 1939-1997, was not a non-profit summer camp. It was privately owned and Camp Alton paid property taxes. The people of the Town of Alton voted not to purchase it for a town park, so Bob Behre bought it and the rest is history. If Bob didn't buy it, then someone else would have developed it.

The Saint Charles Catholic Church in Meredith, which was a tax exempt, waterfront property, sold their church property and building to be converted into the Inn at Church Point. So, one can assume that the tax exempt summer camps like Camp Monotomy can sell their property, if they chose. And, there is no selling penalty similar to selling a property that was held in current use. Tax exempt and current use are different classifications.

[twoplustwo]

So what happens when the non-profits sell their property? No doubt they got the land at an initial low price, if it wasn't donated. So when they sell their $10 million property, what happens?

If you're the Diocese of Manchester, you build another church down the road, pocket the cash, and let Rusty McLear add to the business taxes Meredith takes in. If you're tax exempt, you're tax exempt, right? Even if you have a massive HHH windfall.

[CentreHarborEric]

This went from a good thread to a really good thread.
Living in MA full time and owning lakefront up in NH, I love the tax discussion (but hate the taxes!).
I want NH to stay the low-tax, low government place that I considered it while I was growing up. I know firsthand from paying attention to politics in MA that more $$ going into state coffers almost never translates 100% (it feels like MUCH less) into programs for the majority of people, or purchases of land for the true public interest, etc.
That $$ goes into hiring more government workers, funding their out-of-this-world pensions and rising healthcare costs. It goes into wasteful road/bridge/rail construction which benefits some but then becomes a disgraceful money pit of an ongoing maintenance project plus all the government employees required to staff it. It goes towards buying 6,000 licenses for computer software which no one can really justify buying at all (not even 100 copies) because someone from Cognos is friends with the speaker of the house (that's our latest $13 million almost-wasted, but believe me, there's probably 10+ times that wasted in a simliar way and never reported every year).
We're now being sold this BS about new taxes (a.k.a. gambling revenues) reducing our in-place taxes down here in MA, but we all know how that will go. The projections for tax collections are too rosy, we won't know until they're actually upon us, and our property/income/excise/cigarette/fuel taxes and road tolls won't go down, but we will have created some more government in the process, and the new spending level will be set even higher.
I worry about newcomers to NH wanting their local and state government to get involved to the level they may have been accustomed in NJ, MA, ME etc. The reference to wishing the state would buy Timber Island for a state park is a perfect example, but the community centers, overdone fire/police stations and public works projects I see popping up around the lake are good ones too-lots of $$ spent with ongoing maintenance and staffing costs that will never go away, and tax revenue lost too in some cases.
Leave the preservation/conservation projects to the good work of the LRCT and others.
So keep the spending in check and maintain NH's competitive advantage in attracting business, tourist and retirement spending by minimizing the tax burden!!!!! We need to save our money so we can support the monster federal healthcare reform anyway!

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

So what happens when the non-profits sell their property? No doubt they got the land at an initial low price, if it wasn't donated. So when they sell their $10 million property, what happens?

If you're the Diocese of Manchester, you build another church down the road, pocket the cash, and let Rusty McLear add to the business taxes Meredith takes in. If you're tax exempt, you're tax exempt, right? Even if you have a massive HHH windfall.

In many cases successful not for profits (Harvard, MIT) make payments in lieu of taxes to the cities they reside in. The non profits listed above don't seem to rise to that level!

[wildwoodfam]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It's run by the Eastern Massachusetts Girl Scouts, but its OWNED by the Arlington Girl Scouts.

I hate quibbling - but you are wrong - Menotomoy is OWNED by the former "Patriots Trail Council" which became the Central region council in the reorganization of the program. This council is the LARGEST GS troop council in Eastern MA. Not that it's that important ...

My wife is associated with the GS - North Region - formerly Spar and Spindle - they Spar & Spindle also "OWN" a summer camp - but it's not my wife's troop that owns it, its the council.

That said BI - we are on the same page - would be sad to see these great organizations fall under the government tax structure. Most would not survive...including Lawrence which almost had to run this summer without a dishwasher!! Until a generous board member donated one to the camp!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chipj29

So what happens when the non-profits sell their property? No doubt they got the land at an initial low price, if it wasn't donated. So when they sell their $10 million property, what happens?

What will happen is that when the camp first starts getting the tax crunch they place all or most of the land under conservation easement. Essentially they give easement rights to a third party. Sometimes multiple third parties. This protects the land from ever being developed. They might leave the area with the buildings out of this easement.

Because the land can not be developed it is worth a lot less. Thus the fair market value goes down and therefore the tax goes down.

That 10 million property may now be worth only 500k and the Girl Scouts may be able to pay the tax.

This "end around" out of the tax could work for non-profits that own lots of undeveloped land.

There is also the possibility that the Girl Scouts decide to take the 10 million and not go the easement route.

In any even the important question for society is what happens to the land, and what happens to the lake. In the long run that is a far more important question than taking a Penny or two off of your tax bill. I like the idea of having non-profit, reasonably priced camping alternatives for our children. Many children have and will benefit from camping. The camping experience is, per day, as educational as our schools.

[KonaChick]

For certain most of the children attending these tax exempt camps are NOT underpriviledged. I'm wondering if the original intent of these camps was to let kids who would not ordinarily have this experience because of expense see what's it like to be able to live on this beautiful lake for a few weeks out of the year.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

So what happens when the non-profits sell their property? No doubt they got the land at an initial low price, if it wasn't donated. So when they sell their $10 million property, what happens?

If you're the Diocese of Manchester, you build another church down the road, pocket the cash, .........l.

I'm not quite sure that's what happened with St Charles in Meredith. Seems they ended up with a mortgage after all the transactions plus a large capital campaign. Most of you are forgetting that most legitimate non-profits rely on donations for their existence.

[Irish mist]

The city of Chicago inacted a 10.25 % sales tax in the city today. Think about that........10.25 % sales tax on almost every item purchased. That's why thinking new, or extra taxes are going to solve all of our problems is foolish. Vermont is up to 6% statewide sales taxes now. The only thing more taxes gets you.....is more taxes.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I like the idea of having non-profit, reasonably priced camping alternatives for our children. Many children have and will benefit from camping. The camping experience is, per day, as educational as our schools.

I agree with that 100%. I enjoyed summer camps as a young lad, Camp Lawrence once summer, and Camp Rotary in MA another. I liked Camp Rotary so much the first 2 weeks, I begged my parents to let me stay longer...it worked.
I did not have that same luck at Camp Lawrence. 2 days into my stay I got sick as a dog. Montezumas Revenge type illness. I don't have to tell you that it was a very ugly site.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In any even the important question for society is what happens to the land, and what happens to the lake. In the long run that is a far more important question than taking a Penny or two off of your tax bill. I like the idea of having non-profit, reasonably priced camping alternatives for our children. Many children have and will benefit from camping. The camping experience is, per day, as educational as our schools.

Stop the presses!

I agree with BI on this one! (I know... I know... Hell has officially frozen over!!) LOL!

Seriously, I never went to summer camp but I think they are a great idea. While I don't agree with the Camp Directors on HB-847, I do think the camps provide a NECCESARY service to the children of the area.

I think a reasonable compromise would be that in lieu of taxes to the town, a certain number of underpriveleged kids from that town should be allowed to attend the camp for free. Perhaps a lottery system of some sort? (I also think universities & colleges should also do the same for thier cities & towns)

Woodsy

[tis]

10.25% tax!??? I am glad I don't live there.

woodsy. Some of the camps do have programs for some local kids.

[twoplustwo]

I'm not quite sure that's what happened with St Charles in Meredith. Seems they ended up with a mortgage after all the transactions plus a large capital campaign. Most of you are forgetting that most legitimate non-profits rely on donations for their existence.

I'm not forgetting anything. But I'm not going there or I'll be accused of being a Recovering Catholic

Now before I completely hijack this thread, ITA that camps belong here, have a purpose that's multifold not only in what they offer to the kids but what they offer to the lake in terms of preservation of land and shoreline, and would think it was a great thing if their focus was more on the underpriviledged, since rich kids don't need a non-profit funding their summer vacations.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Stop the presses!

I agree with BI on this one! (I know... I know... Hell has officially frozen over!!) LOL!

Seriously, I never went to summer camp but I think they are a great idea. While I don't agree with the Camp Directors on HB-847, I do think the camps provide a NECCESARY service to the children of the area.

I think a reasonable compromise would be that in lieu of taxes to the town, a certain number of underpriveleged kids from that town should be allowed to attend the camp for free. Perhaps a lottery system of some sort? (I also think universities & colleges should also do the same for thier cities & towns)

Woodsy

Many children attend summer camp through Camperships. Organizations or individuals pay the tuition of one or more children to attend a non-profit summer camp.

I don't know if there are camperships for lakes region children to attend the local camps, but there should be.

[neckdweller]

Tecumseh and Winaukee, both down Moultonborough Neck, aren't exactly catering to the underprivileged market with the kids coming from well off areas of PA and NY respectively. Tecumseh used to have one or two local deserving kids from Moultonborough attend on scholarship however.

As far as I know, Winaukee has never been a not for profit though so they're probably kicking in a substantial amount of property tax.

I can't speak for the current state of Tecumseh, but they used to be considered not for profit. There were taxes paid but the camp kind of decided what they'd pay and the town accepted it - if push came to shove the alternative was $0 because of the status.

[Melvin Clarp]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Many of the summer camps that had to pay property taxes no longer exist....they got taxed out.

Many of the camps still in operation are affiliated with churchs,, YMCA, YWCA, Boy/Girl Scouts of America, and are not taxed. If they had to pay taxes at the highest and best use, namely shoreline residential, they most likely could not exist.

Camp Nokomis, Camp Lawrence, Sandy Island Camp, Camp Menotomy, Appalachian Mountain Club's Three Mile Island, Timber Island's conservation easement, and Camp Wanakee (Lake Pemigewasset, Meredith), are all property tax exempt.

.....

.....

Before someone calls me an ogre for wanting to property tax the summer camps, let me say that NO, I went through summer camp and believe that the summer camp experience is a terrific experience. Many of the campers would not experience summer camp were it not for the tax exempts. They do great work and deserve their exempt status. Long live the summer camps!

What New Hampshire really needs is a five percent income tax with the first 25single/50kmarried exempt for earned income, and pensions from dollar#1, & maybe even capital gains, so it can get away from the property tax, except that's another topic and for another thread.

FLL,
I have many fond memories of my experience at Camp Wyanoke in Wolfeboro in the early 70s. I don't know if rising property taxes contributed to its closure in 1975, but certainly for-profit summer camps on the Big Lake are not a sustainble business model. My older son attended Camp Lawrence in 1999 and 2000, and thoroughly enjoyed his time there.

Just a minor clarification to your original message.... AMC Three Mile Island Camp, where I often volunteer, is non-profit, but does pay property tax.

[Rufus]

Just for clarification, AMC's Three Mile Island Camp pays property taxes to Meredith. Last their bill was just shy of $20,000. They also paid about $15,000 is lodging and meals taxes in 2007.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Just for clarification, AMC's Three Mile Island Camp pays property taxes to Meredith. Last their bill was just shy of $20,000. They also paid about $15,000 is lodging and meals taxes in 2007.

The AMC does a lot of good things, what with their White Mountain trails as well as their Three Mile Island Camps on Lake Winnipesaukee.

Just to put things in perspective, here's a little comparision in property taxes that may have you realizing that your $20,000.Meredith property tax is a super bargain basement deal for Three Mile Island.

With 43 wooded acres, 47 cabins, a main house, a boat house, and an unknown (maybe 8000'wf?) length of island waterfront, Three Mile Island, a non-profit organization, pays about $20,000/year to Meredith in property tax.

With a total of one acre and 220' of waterfront, myself and my three neighbors occupy four 1/4 acre lots with 55' of waterfront each. The combined total in property tax for this one acre is about $35,000/year.

That is correct. Three mile island has 43 acres and pays 20k. We four separate owners have one acre total, and we pay 35k.

Just something to think about if maybe you have been considering that your 20k tax bill was a bit high.

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by Irish mist

The city of Chicago inacted a 10.25 % sales tax in the city today. Think about that........10.25 % sales tax on almost every item purchased. That's why thinking new, or extra taxes are going to solve all of our problems is foolish. Vermont is up to 6% statewide sales taxes now. The only thing more taxes gets you.....is more taxes.

Ain't that where Obama is from? Hang on to your wallets!

[fatlazyless]

Is Camp Monotomy open and running as a camp this summer? The entry gate is closed and locked with a padlock & cable, and there's no signs of any people. It appears to be closed. In the past, very small numbers of presumed camp counselors would gather outside the gate, across the road, to smoke a cigarette, but not this summer. Where is everyone at Camp Monotomy?

So, if a summer camp which is property tax exempt of Meredith taxes is no longer operating does it continue to have tax exempt status? Can it cruise along on its' history or does it need to continue its' service as a summer camp in order to qualify?

[wildwoodfam]

That's according to the GS 's Central Region website.

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The two camps on Bear are owned by the Lawrence Massachusetts Y. 1,600' of frontage and another 10 million.

A heck of a lot more than 1600' between the two camps - closer to 8000.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

You know that you will be shot for that, right?

Of course FLL knows he will be shot for that..... but that is why he is FLL....

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

The AMC does a lot of good things, what with their White Mountain trails as well as their Three Mile Island Camps on Lake Winnipesaukee.

Just to put things in perspective, here's a little comparision in property taxes that may have you realizing that your $20,000.Meredith property tax is a super bargain basement deal for Three Mile Island.

With 43 wooded acres, 47 cabins, a main house, a boat house, and an unknown (maybe 8000'wf?) length of island waterfront, Three Mile Island, a non-profit organization, pays about $20,000/year to Meredith in property tax.

With a total of one acre and 220' of waterfront, myself and my three neighbors occupy four 1/4 acre lots with 55' of waterfront each. The combined total in property tax for this one acre is about $35,000/year.

That is correct. Three mile island has 43 acres and pays 20k. We four separate owners have one acre total, and we pay 35k.

Just something to think about if maybe you have been considering that your 20k tax bill was a bit high.

Holy thread resurrection, Batman...

The reason (or at least a big part of it) that your property and that of your neighbors is taxed at such a disproportionately high rate when compared to the property tax that the AMC pays for Three Mile Island is that your smaller properties are not eligible for current use valuation, and are thus assessed at their highest and "best" use. To the maximum extent possible, Three Mile Island acreage is enrolled in current use.

[IslandRadio]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

What New Hampshire really needs is a five percent income tax with the first 25single/50kmarried exempt for earned income, and pensions from dollar#1, & maybe even capital gains, so it can get away from the property tax, except that's another topic and for another thread.

If NH ever implemented an income tax, do NOT do it at the STATE level - keep it a local town tax. If it's at the state level, you get Massachusetts all over again, with all of its various problems - and that's SCARY (and I live in MA, so I should know).

No one likes taxes of course, but they are necessary to keep important things going that we all need and/or care about. The problem I personally have with property taxes is that they are not in the least related to one's ability to pay said tax. That makes it regressive. At least a flat income tax is fair - you have no income, you don't pay - you have income, you do. In that regard, sales taxes are also much more fair - you buy, you pay the tax. If you don't have any money, obviously you're not going to be buying a lot of stuff, so you won't be paying much in taxes either.... But, no matter what - keep the tax LOCAL so we don't get a big state government going!!

The only way, if it were me voting here in NH that I would ever approve an income or sales tax is if there were a dollar-for-dollar reduction in the property tax levy for every dollar collected through other taxes.

[RailroadJoe]

The Tea Tax helped start this country. Maybe the cigarette tax (and others) will end it.

Sounds like the Mass people are moving in again.

[NoRegrets]

The camps were started by generous people or organizations (both with their time and money). It was and is a symbol of social responsibilities and positive "can-do" American attitudes. To think society is so misguided to look at them as a source of revenue or jealousy because they are perceived to get something for free is truly disturbing.

I believe the spirit of NH is or was "live Free or Die". We did not want to pay for politicians to run our lives. We did not believe we needed to be regulated by Washington, Concord, or city hall. We will carry the burden for education and basic social costs (hospitals, infrastructure, safety, and defense). In the nineties we had an explosion of government agencies that are now robbing us. To suggest another tax will only further government growth. We need to cut government and focus on the fundamentals.

[BroadHopper]

As an economist, I like the idea of replacing the entire tax system with the value added tax system. If you spend your money then the govt will take a bit of it. If you save your money, you don't get taxed. Your going to spend the money eventually.

This way you don't have to worry about filling out forms and the govt. can save money on collection cost and you can save time and money on tax preperations. You don't have to worry about 401K or IRA or IRS etc. Plain and simple.

The beauty of this setup is that the people can set a cap on collection, let's say 5%. If the economy is good and people spends, the govt. gets more money. If the economy is sour then govt have to put the brakes on spending!

Same as business, the more they spend, the more they contribute. No more tax breaks or freebies!

[IslandRadio]

This is definitely a deviation from the main thread, but it is nevertheless interesting.

How does it work if a business buys parts to build a product, then that product is sold to another business which then incorporates several products to produce one end product that is ultimately sold to the customer.

Would the tax be collected at any of the intermediate steps? I'm assuming yes - else it would not be called "value added"... This seems to be a bad idea as compared to a national sales tax, where the product or service is only taxed once - at the end user level.

It strikes me that a VAT could drastically increase the cost of some items - particularly those where there are sub-assemblies purchased from different vendors to create an end user product. It also appears to favor larger manufacturers who produce everything as opposed to integrators.

Or do I have the VAT idea all wrong (which is quite possible!).

[BroadHopper]

Well, I may be off topics

This thread is in the General Discussions section of the Forum, so it all depends on haw you look at it. LOL!

For more information on VAT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax

This should answer your question islandradio.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by IslandRadio

This is definitely a deviation from the main thread, but it is nevertheless interesting.

How does it work if a business buys parts to build a product, then that product is sold to another business which then incorporates several products to produce one end product that is ultimately sold to the customer.

Would the tax be collected at any of the intermediate steps? I'm assuming yes - else it would not be called "value added"... This seems to be a bad idea as compared to a national sales tax, where the product or service is only taxed once - at the end user level.

It strikes me that a VAT could drastically increase the cost of some items - particularly those where there are sub-assemblies purchased from different vendors to create an end user product. It also appears to favor larger manufacturers who produce everything as opposed to integrators.

Or do I have the VAT idea all wrong (which is quite possible!).

Yes, under the VAT system part of the tax is paid along each step. However companies also receive credits and only the end user ultimately pays the tax. The big difference from a sales tax is that at each step it is in the seller's best interest to confirm if their customer is really the end user. Therefore cheating is greatly reduced.

Many countries use the VAT system but in the USA, with each state having different sales tax laws and percentages, it would be a nightmare to administer.

[MAXUM]

We don't need a sales tax, we don't need more property taxes, what we need is people in the state and federal legislatures to take the money they already have to work with and use it wisely. Time and time again we hear of money being wasted, bailouts, and more and more entitlement programs riddled with fraud. Enough already! This is NOT what government was intended for!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

We don't need a sales tax, we don't need more property taxes, what we need is people in the state and federal legislatures to take the money they already have to work with and use it wisely. Time and time again we hear of money being wasted, bailouts, and more and more entitlement programs riddled with fraud. Enough already! This is NOT what government was intended for!

I think the gov't should use public funds to buy everyone property on an island!

Just messing with you Maxum...congrats again on realizing your dream.

[8gv]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

We don't need a sales tax, we don't need more property taxes, what we need is people in the state and federal legislatures to take the money they already have to work with and use it wisely. Time and time again we hear of money being wasted, bailouts, and more and more entitlement programs riddled with fraud. Enough already! This is NOT what government was intended for!

Amen to that!

I'll add this:

The only way the taxpayers can keep government spending in check is by minimizing the amount of taxes collected.

Our political system rewards government expenditure. Whether it is jobs, pay and benefits for government employees, benefits for the "poor" or infrastruction projects, politicians are rewarded at the ballot box for delivering the goods.

I intend to move to NH in three years to escape the foolishness of CT's taxes and other quality of life issues. Please do me the favor of NOT turning NH into the same.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Amen to that!

I'll add this:

The only way the taxpayers can keep government spending in check is by minimizing the amount of taxes collected.

Our political system rewards government expenditure. Whether it is jobs, pay and benefits for government employees, benefits for the "poor" or infrastruction projects, politicians are rewarded at the ballot box for delivering the goods.

I intend to move to NH in three years to escape the foolishness of CT's taxes and other quality of life issues. Please do me the favor of NOT turning NH into the same.

Hurry up and get up here! We need people that know the difference of politicians buying votes with our tax dollars and promise to take care of all our needs versus the American spirit of life!

[Diver Vince]

Some of the views expressed on this thread is starting to make me nervous (as a new NH property owner). One of the reasons I bought here was to escape the hi income AND property taxes in NJ. One thing you can take to the bank; as you increase or expand the tax base, the politicians will inevitably spend it or use the extra proceeds to shamelessly buy votes. In a view short years they will again be clamoring with more devious ways to expand the tax base for their "investments".

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Diver Vince

Some of the views expressed on this thread is starting to make me nervous (as a new NH property owner). One of the reasons I bought here was to escape the hi income AND property taxes in NJ. One thing you can take to the bank; as you increase or expand the tax base, the politicians will inevitably spend it or use the extra proceeds to shamelessly buy votes. In a view short years they will again be clamoring with more devious ways to expand the tax base for their "investments".

Way back when NH used to be an inexpensive state to live in.
Now it is right up there with other states and some who have relocated are realizing it cost more to live here then it did where they came from.
I know when my mom moved to Nashua from Mass. She said it was a lot more expensive between the increased car registration and property taxes then she paid in Mass.
NH doesn’t have a sales or income tax so it all comes from property taxes and car registrations. And the towns are raising there portion on auto registrations every year and we all know where property taxes are going.

[nightrider]

What does it cost to register a car or pickup truck in NH?

[SIKSUKR]

NH is right at the bottom of tax burden.

NUMERICAL STATE TAX BURDEN RANKING

(AS PERCENT OF INCOME)



State Rank As Percent of Income


Maine 1 13.5 %
New York 2 12.9
Ohio 3 12.0
Minnesota 4 11.9
Hawaii 5 11.7
Nebraska 6 11.6
Wisconsin 7 11.6
Rhode Island 8 11.5
Connecticut 9 11.3
Vermont 10 11.1
Louisiana 11 11.0
Indiana 12 11.0
Washington 13 10.9
Illinois 14 10.9
California 15 10.9
Michigan 16 10.8
New Jersey 17 10.8
Kansas 18 10.7
Maryland 19 10.7
Kentucky 20 10.7
West Virginia 21 10.6
Utah 22 10.5
North Caroline 23 10.5
Pennsylvania 24 10.4
Georgia 25 10.4
Iowa 26 10.4
Arkansas 27 10.3
Massachusetts 28 10.3
Mississippi 29 10.2
South Caroline 30 10.2
Idaho 31 10.2
Arizona 32 10.1
Wyoming 33 10.1
Missouri 34 9.9
Oregon 35 9.9
New Mexico 36 9.9
North Dakota 37 9.8
Colorado 38 9.8
Florida 39 9.7
Oklahoma 40 9.6
Virginia 41 9.5
Montana 42 9.5
Nevada 43 9.5
Texas 44 9.4
South Dakota 45 9.2
Tennessee 47 8.6
Delaware 48 8.4
New Hampshire 49 7.3
Alaska 50 6.6

District of Columbia 12.8
Highest numerical ranking equals highest state tax burden.

[jrc]

The confusing part is comparing car registrations cost between NH and Mass.

NH has a nominal fee every year to register your car, based on vehicle weight plus a usually higher tax every year, based on value of the car.

Mass has an annual nominal fee, an annual excise tax and a one-time sales tax. I think they now pay there registrations on a longer period than one year.

If you total the tax burden NH is much lower, but people often forget to include excise and sales tax in the Mass. side.

[MAXUM]

NH may show as having a very low tax burden, but that's a red herring. NH fee's the hell out of everyone and those are not necessarily counted as taxes. In my opinion they are taxes just with a more user friendly name.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by jrc

The confusing part is comparing car registrations cost between NH and Mass.

NH has a nominal fee every year to register your car, based on vehicle weight plus a usually higher tax every year, based on value of the car.

Mass has an annual nominal fee, an annual excise tax and a one-time sales tax. I think they now pay there registrations on a longer period than one year.
If you total the tax burden NH is much lower, but people often forget to include excise and sales tax in the Mass. side.

I found the registration to be higher in NH even when including the excise tax and breaking the sales tax down by the number of years I owned the truck at the time of registering it in NH. Just the plate here in NH was almost twice as much for one year to MA 2 year registration. Insurance is defiantly not cheaper if you get oranges for oranges. Like stated in the other thread NH really does fee the hell out of everything and those fee's are defiantly not going down now or any time soon and they sure mount up on a yearly basis.

[jrc]

Sorry I just don't believe your math, I just bought a $40000 car, my Mass sales tax would have been $2500. That covers at least four years of NH registrations. Now add excise tax every year in Mass, you never get to a cheaper total number in Mass.

[jrc]

BTW the dirty little secret on NH taxes, it's a bad place to retire. We have no income tax but we have an interest and dividends tax. What do you live on when you retire, interest on your savings and dividends from your investments.

[RailroadJoe]

Glad I'm in the poverty level and don't pay any taxes, except the meals tax.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by jrc

BTW the dirty little secret on NH taxes, it's a bad place to retire. We have no income tax but we have an interest and dividends tax. What do you live on when you retire, interest on your savings and dividends from your investments.

Mass has an unearned income tax of 12% that trumps the NH State tax on interest and dividends gained. I left "taxachusettes" 24 years ago and have NoRegrets!

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

Glad I'm in the poverty level and don't pay any taxes, except the meals tax.

Wow, that's quite a view of the world. I guess you have zero income and no car or you would certainly pay tax on those. Do you live in a box? Even if you don't own real estate your paying taxes included in your rent so don't fool yourself. I'm not happy paying taxes but I'd rather be paying lots by earning big numbers.

[Lakegeezer]

There are several summer camps in Moultonborough and even with their discount on taxes, the overall property tax rate is quite low. It makes sense to keep it this way. If higher taxes drove camps to sell out to developers, and assuming a recovered economy, the increased housing density would raise costs to the town, possibly by a lot more than the tax relief the town is granting today. Also, camps add to the character of the town and leaves a lot of land seemingly unused during the off-seasons.

As for NH tax load, if I look at the 30+ income earning years where I haven't had to pay 5% or more of my income to the state, along with the taxes I've saved on major purchases, it has been a huge bargain. Also, as a tax haven, NH attracts highly productive people, which raises the quality of life for all. Imagine the impact of a brain drain over a decade or two if there was no NH tax advantage. The no-income tax pledge is still relevant as we enter this gubernatorial season.

The real challenge comes to those who retire here. Then, taxes are collected on a retirement portfolio's dividends and interest. Still, if the tax savings are invested during income producing years, it all sort of washes out in the end.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

Glad I'm in the poverty level and don't pay any taxes, except the meals tax.

How true and it is just about the same as paying MA excise tax.

[neckdweller]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

The real challenge comes to those who retire here. Then, taxes are collected on a retirement portfolio's dividends and interest. Still, if the tax savings are invested during income producing years, it all sort of washes out in the end.

I'm not old enough to worry about this yet but does the state tax 401K distributions or just interest and dividends in non-retirement accounts?

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

I'm not old enough to worry about this yet but does the state tax 401K distributions or just interest and dividends in non-retirement accounts?

Retirement distributions are not taxed by the State of NH. Also income from NH Muni bonds is exempt.

[BlackCatIslander]

Virtually all of my income is unearned income and I do NOT pay 12 percent to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Out of curiousity I looked at last year's tax returns and found that my state tax burden was less than 6 percent of taxable income. That includes state income tax, local real estate tax, excise tax for two vehicles, and an estimate for sales taxes. Obviously, those numbers vary widely from household to household.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by BlackCatIslander

Virtually all of my income is unearned income and I do NOT pay 12 percent to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Out of curiousity I looked at last year's tax returns and found that my state tax burden was less than 6 percent of taxable income. That includes state income tax, local real estate tax, excise tax for two vehicles, and an estimate for sales taxes. Obviously, those numbers vary widely from household to household.

When I left the state it was 12 %. It looks like it is now down to 5.3%. Thanks for the correction. It is interesting how that number was burned into my brain!