canoe tipping question

pcmc · 09-08-2011, 08:29 PM

We have just bought our first used canoe and went exploring over Labor Day weekend. What A Blast! We had so much fun.

After reading the thread about "2 kayakers overturned in Meredith", I don't want to alarm anyone... My question is... what would you suggest I do to, purposly, close to shore, tip the canoe with us in it to give all of us a little experience as to what to expect if it should tip over on accident. I want my kids (and my wife and I)to know what to do, before, so there is less panic. I want to know if the canoe will sink out of site, or is it possible to up right. Also test the PFD's, just float around with them on, make sure they work well as designed.
I haven't researched this yet so any advice very much appreciated.

I'm concerned with people off in the distance see a canoe go over and calling for a rescue, is there a right way to practice over turning, any protocal?

I take critisism well so feel free to lay it on.

bkgoodman · 09-08-2011, 08:59 PM

I can't really speak as to the "protocol" for doing this, but I commend your diligence for wanting to do this - and for your family to do this! I do this with new boats that I get - sailboats, canoes, even larger power boats - and each season for PFDs.

I recommend you do this as close to shore as possible - but in enough depth to give you the practice dealing with the situations when you cannot touch/stand on the bottom. Start in shallower water, pretending that you can't touch the bottom - and then when you get that worked out, move onto the water you can't stand in.

The big thing to learn/practice is - righting and getting back in the craft. You will undoubtiby learn stuff you need to know. For example, in my sailboat, I needed to add a couple of cleats to the hull to tie a line to to haul myself up. In a canoe, you might need to carry a spare line - (maybe with some loops for leg-holes) with you. On my larger boat - can I reach the latch to let the swim ladder down if needed? Do I need to change the latch?

You need to learn these lessons and equip yourself properly before you find yourself out in the lake doing it in the "real-world".

Other skills just need to be worked out- for example - maybe your kid's and Wife will need to hang on to one side of the canoe, while you climb in on the other. Again, best to have the procedures all trouble-shot and worked out ahead of time.

Additionally, maybe your kids' PFDs don't give great buoyancy, or quite hold their heads far enough away from the water for weak swimmers in choppy waters. Furthermore, over time - people get heavier, and PFDs loose buoyancy!

Another important part is just getting everyone used to it - so when/if it flips - there isn't immediate panic. In reality, tipping a canoe can be fun - but if it's your first time, and by accident it can cause panic - which is the last thing you'd want in the situation. Get everyone acclimated to it a bit, and if it does happen, it'll be no different than one of your practice drills.

My kids were freaked out about the possibility of the sailboat capsizing - or falling out of the boat, etc. We went through some of this stuff - now they are quite comfortable with it. They even beg me to jump in and let them swim to shore (with their PFDs) as we get close to shore.

So again - reading up on "saftey" and taking courses and exams and stuff are good - but none prepare you for the real-world aspects of what you'll need to do when the time arises. I commend you taking the time and attention to do this.

rick35 · 09-08-2011, 09:10 PM

I found a lot of info on how to get back into a kayak on youtube and I'm guessing there are videos on canoes. I haven't tried it yet but i think i understand how to do it. I have a paddle float and a pump with me just in case. Getting back in will be tough. Getting the water out will be even tougher.

bkgoodman · 09-08-2011, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick35

I have a paddle float and a pump with me just in case. Getting back in will be tough. Getting the water out will be even tougher.

Yes! That goes under the category of "you'll learn what you need".

I learned I need to carry bailers. 5 one-gallon milk jugs with the bottoms cut out. The stack together neatly, and let the 5 of us bail out the boat in a few minutes.

VitaBene · 09-09-2011, 05:02 AM

Or a second canoe to slide the capsized one over. I learned every way to tip a canoe over when I was at scout camp.

This was how I was taught to right them! http://www.woonsocket.org/rescue.html

donmac · 09-09-2011, 06:52 AM

I had my kids experience tipping a canoe when they were very young, primarily so they would not panic if it ever happened. As teenagers they could jump out of a canoe to swim and climb back in without thinking twice.

If you have never done it before I suggest you do it alone first, so YOU know what to expect, then do it with the kids.

SAMIAM · 09-09-2011, 07:19 AM

Love this thread...it is so important to have a "drill" .........when we were sailing a lot,we'd dump the boat close to the beach, even with the jib out, just to practice. It got to almost be routine and we could right the boat in a couple of minutes.
Important, too, for kayaks and canoes, especially with the kids.
Good for you, pcmc for bringing this idea onto the forum. Lots of good ideas popping up..........really like the milk jug idea.

SAMIAM · 09-09-2011, 07:42 AM

Forgot to mention that we are taking a liking to inflatable PFD's because they are so compact and comfortable, especially for canoes, kayaks and sailing. We have both the belt and vest types and they work great.
Only thing is, it's important to test them a couple of times in order to get comfortable and familiar with them.
We buy the refill CO2's, test them, and after you've repacked them with a fresh cartridge a couple of times you have confidence in them and it feels so nice to have the freedom of not wearing one of the bulky older style PFD's.

camp guy · 09-09-2011, 07:57 AM

This is a great thread - thank you 'pcmc' for raiksing this question, and thanks to everyone who contributed useful answers, especially the video by VitaBene.

I spent many years in the summer camp business, and teaching young boys and men about water safety was central to our waterfront programming. It is quite easy to teach safety if the participants are enjoying the learning session - and what's not to enjoy about canoes and water on a hot summer day.

The video is right on, brings back a lot of youthful memories.

Thanks for this thread.

jmen24 · 09-09-2011, 09:13 AM

The problem with the video is that it has quite a few people around to assist. If you are the only boat and all of you are in the water goes nothing like what is described in the video. What was shown in the video, I have never had the chance to use in a real life situation. Not saying that some haven't, but that is perfect world conditions. Most people will not be able to remove a swamped canoe from the water while in another canoe and especially if the only folks around are also in the water.

The thing that is taught when guiding a paddle group is for the paddlers to forget about the canoe if it is swamped. In moving water, you need to stay away from the boat unless you have the skills to self rescue or are in an area that would allow for moving along with the boat without it crushing you against obstructions in the water. Most experienced paddlers will not attempt to self rescue unless everything is set.

A canoe is an entirely different beast than a kayak and the techniques that work for one will not work for the other. They brace differently, sit lower to the waterline, have different stability issues and kayaks hold quite a bit less water. Paddle floats on a canoe paddle do not work, nor will they likely fit most blades. The broad area of the paddle blade will give you an equal amount of brace force. But we are getting ahead of ourselves.

Your canoe will hold 300 gallons or so of water if it is fully swamped. The amount of energy to remove that water with bailers or a hand pump will be a lot. You have to remember that even though you are testing this close to shore, the likely situation will be quite a distance from shore, energy for swimming is critical. Using all that energy to clear the water from a replaceable object is never recommended. With that said, the situation needs to be assessed at the time it comes up.

If you dump in choppy water, stay with the boat, but consentrate on signaling for help and timing your breathing to keep from snarfing up any quantity of water. Same goes for cold water. The canoe will not sink, even if fully swamped, unless the hull is ruptured or a gunwale is broken.

If the water is calm and warmer (late spring, summer, early fall) then you may be able to remove some of the water from the boat to get it is sit higher in the water. The idea at this point would be to have one person get back into the boat and paddle it while the others swim along side. You kind of need to gauge whether or not the boat can handle more than one person, based on the amount of water in it. If you have kids with you then they should go into the boat anyway, they can bail while the adult paddles.

When trying to get back into a canoe from the water it is important to remember that you alway want to stay upstream or upwind. This will keep the boat from moving around to much and will protect you from being pinned if an obstruction appears. If a single person is attempting to rescue than you should enter from the bow or stern of the boat, but on a side. This is the most stable area of the canoe, it also allows you to have a handhold on the far gunwale without overextending yourself. If you try to enter in the center, the boat will take on more water and most likely roll.

If at all possible have two people enter the canoe at the same time from opposing ends of the boat, you will balance each other out.

That is the skinny on the quick stuff, there are more advanced techniques, for moving water or pulling another person into the boat and so on. If you are interested, look into taking a swift water rescue course and some basic paddle instruction. The thing with taking instruction from experience paddlers, guides or organizations is that it gives you the skill set to not have to guess at what the most efficient means of rescue will be. Ever situation will be different, but you will have enough information is adapt something to what you are experiencing.

Oh yea, how about some tips on not getting into a self rescue situation. First and foremost, do not ever put your hands on the gunwales of the boat while under way. Your paddles require two hands to be useful as a paddle, keep them there. When you touch the gunwales, you instantly change the center of gravity in the boat to the highest point and you will roll. Even when it gets knarly, keep your paddle in the water, even if you aren't paddling you will not be putting your hands on the boat. If you get caught on a rock in moving water that has you boat turning perpendicular to the flow of water, lean down stream, then assess what you need to do to remove yourself. If you lean upstream with the roll of the boat, the current will catch the gunwale and fill the boat and in the worst case, wrap the rock or log. Just lean downstream and catch your breath and stay calm. And last but not least, do not paddle outside of your ability unless you are in the company of someone that possesses the proper skills to guide you through the next step in your experience level.

My wife and I have been paddling for over 20 years each and 12 together and have paddled all over New England from the serene to the big water nasty of the Dead. It is a great sport and you will love the freedom of an open boat. www.maineguiding.com

Enjoy your new boat and happy paddling.

jrc · 09-09-2011, 09:21 AM

If your canoe is anywhere near modern, it should be unsinkable. It will float even when filled with water. This doesn't mean it will float well or upright. I have a 20+ year old colemen that has foam floats in the ends, most fiberglass canoes have foam in the ends or under the seats.

I've flipped my canoe, near shore, and they are heavier than the look. I had to swim the canoe to shore before I could reboard it. Try to flip yours it is a lot harder than it looks.

DickR · 09-09-2011, 10:13 AM

When my kids were in their pre-teen/early teen years, they and their friends would have a great time capsizing our 17' Grumman (aluminum) canoe in relatively shallow water. They would swim underneath into the air pocket, and those of us on shore could hear their conversations underneath the hull.

Yes, a canoe full of water is heavy, so obviously one doesn't lift it out of the water, then turn it over to dump the water. In water shallow enough to stand on the bottom, two people can refloat the canoe, almost empty of water. All they have to do is rotate the canoe slowly on its long axis, with one edge clear of the water, while lifting. The hull is essentially rotated up and out of the water without lifting any of the water. If the canoe is completely upside down to start, simply rotate the hull to bring one edge up out of the water, then lift the hull slowly clear of the surface, then flip it quickly back onto the surface.

Trying to do this in water too deep for standing on the bottom and without the aid of a second canoe to provide lift would be quite difficult. The 17' Grumman weighs 75 pounds, so two adults would have to lift 38 lb each. Doing that through scissor-kicking in the water seems elusive. I wonder if two large adults could push the hull up and empty enough with a sudden upward thrust. Of course the upward thrust also would push the men totally under water. Could four do it? It would have to be done by whatever crew the canoe was carrying. Four to a canoe? Unlikely.

webmaster · 09-09-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickR

In water shallow enough to stand on the bottom, two people can refloat the canoe, almost empty of water. All they have to do is rotate the canoe slowly on its long axis, with one edge clear of the water, while lifting. The hull is essentially rotated up and out of the water without lifting any of the water. If the canoe is completely upside down to start, simply rotate the hull to bring one edge up out of the water, then lift the hull slowly clear of the surface, then flip it quickly back onto the surface.

When I was earning my Canoeing Merit Badge at Camp Sachem we practiced that exact technique. With another canoe to help we could easily right and empty a canoe in deep water. We would flip the canoes intentionally just to practice righting them.

jmen24 · 09-09-2011, 11:46 AM

I have to say that I am a little concerned over some of the responses in this thread. The use of "fun" , "not a big deal", "easy", etc., should never be used when discussing how to properly train yourself in a rescue situation.

It is fun to go out and mess around, roll out of the boat and do other things, that are similar to an emergency situation. But, I can tell you from personal experience and listening to the experiences of paddlers far more advanced than myself, that an unitentional dump in an unplanned area and time, is not fun, at all! The great thing about an actual training course is that you are put into a situation that you are not comfortable with and then forced to deal with the situation, using tools you have been taught. Playing around with camp mates, friends or siblings, does nothing to prepare you for the feeling of dumping unitentionally.

The "where am I" feeling, "where are my boat mates" feeling, "what am I going to do", "how am I going to fix this", "I need to calm this person down". Also if you are solo, but have many other people in the area, you need to add the "I am all set, but how do I keep that person from trying to help, because I know what I need or want to do and they are messing that up". These are the thoughts that race through your head in the first 5 seconds.

Proper training elimates the worry of answering those questions, because before you realize what happened you are already performing the first tasks needed to aid in a clean rescue of yourself.

Repeating the exact same type of rescue prepares you for repeating the exact same type of rescue, the exact moment when you realize that what you are experiencing resembles absolutely nothing with "all those times we practiced tipping the canoe" is when panic sets in and bad choices are selected that make your life harder than it needs to be.

Hate to be a Debby Downer, because the sport is so much fun, but sometimes things need to be taken seriously and not so much as fun. The experience could literally mean the difference between a good ending and a bad.

Dave R · 09-09-2011, 03:30 PM

I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

rick35 · 09-09-2011, 04:23 PM

We always have our PFDs on so that's one less thing to worry about. Tipping over without it would make for a very tense situation. But we see people going by not wearing their PFDs all the time.

SteveA · 09-09-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

You beat me to the Joke.

Seriously, this thread like so many here has great information.

pcmc · 09-09-2011, 08:55 PM

Thankyou Everyone !!!
Please keep the education coming, I have a lot to learn. You are all offering very useful information that can help everyone.
There are some helpful youtube videos, but nothing that would take the place of an instructer's course.
Thanks again!

VitaBene · 09-09-2011, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

The Lake Region Sail and Power Squadron just had our meeting there tonight. The service there is always worth 20% plus!

bkgoodman · 09-09-2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmc

There are some helpful youtube videos, but nothing that would take the place of an instructer's course.
Thanks again!

Hmmm....You've kind of touched a nerve of mine!

I've taken a lot of courses - Power Squadron, USCG Auxiliary, and of course the NH State mandated stuff. My criticism of these are all the same:

They are all "text book", and I think they give you a false sense of really knowing what to do in an emergency. The example I always cite is teaching you to "Call Mayday on Channel 16 in case of an emergency".

Now, I took my Wife to one of these courses to learn these basics so she'd know what to do if the need arises. In reality however, I believe this kind of "text book" knowledge gives you are *false* sense of security.

For example - does she know how to turn the radio ON? Does she know how to adjust the squelch? Does she know how to change the channel? Does she know the antenna needs to be raised? Does she know how to raise it?

My point is - I'm definitely not going to say one *shouldn't* use the "formal" education system. However, don't be lulled into a false-sense of security about it. It is no replacement for real-world, on-the-water practice and drills.

jmen24 · 09-10-2011, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

Hmmm....You've kind of touched a nerve of mine!

I've taken a lot of courses - Power Squadron, USCG Auxiliary, and of course the NH State mandated stuff. My criticism of these are all the same:

They are all "text book", and I think they give you a false sense of really knowing what to do in an emergency. The example I always cite is teaching you to "Call Mayday on Channel 16 in case of an emergency".

Now, I took my Wife to one of these courses to learn these basics so she'd know what to do if the need arises. In reality however, I believe this kind of "text book" knowledge gives you are *false* sense of security.

For example - does she know how to turn the radio ON? Does she know how to adjust the squelch? Does she know how to change the channel? Does she know the antenna needs to be raised? Does she know how to raise it?

My point is - I'm definitely not going to say one *shouldn't* use the "formal" education system. However, don't be lulled into a false-sense of security about it. It is no replacement for real-world, on-the-water practice and drills.

Take a swift water rescue course and a white water course, then report back on the amount of practical vs. text book.

He's talking about canoeing, the instruction should be appropriate to the activity.

camp guy · 09-10-2011, 10:14 AM

Honestly, I think this question has been answered way more than necessary, I'm afraid that if too many more answers surface "pcmc" will be scared away from canoeing feeling that it is too technical. In "jmen24" last post, last sentence, he hits the nail on the head. Amen.

John A. Birdsall · 09-10-2011, 10:29 AM

I had a used 13' sailboat and it turned over on me, I could not upright it by myself. When I got it too shore, I got rid of it. Last weekend I tried my neighbors Kayak, I got out about 60' from shore and it turned over, that got pushed back in, emptied and put away. I don't think them type of boats like me, I think the Kayak was laughing at me. Now back to the pontoon boat where I feel stable.

Have really enjoyed this thread lots of good information, but I am not gonna try that again.

MikeF-NH · 09-10-2011, 12:14 PM

If your kids are younger than teens, I would never take the canoe more than a few hundred feet from some. Most "interesting" things are close to shore anyhow and being way out in the middle is no fun. Being close to shore makes it much easier to simply swim the canoe to shore and use the techniques described above to empty and right it. That said, I've used a canoe for over 20 years and never come close to swamping it. The trick is don't over load. Two adults and 2 pre-teens in a 16 footer is asking for it. The kids won't sit still and will be in the middle of the canoe where they are more likely to shift from side to side (especially if something interesting is seen on one side). Two people in a canoe is best IMHO.

Secondly, sitting on the seats raises your center of gravity and makes the canoe less stable. Have paddlers kneel and nobody should sit on the twarts or if there is a middle seat, use it as a back rest not a seat. The best way to work with capsizing emergencies is to prevent them.

Also all kids under 16 are required to wear a PFD. If you are wondering away from shore, everyone should wear one. Enough on prevention:

Avoiding panic and having a "drill" on how people react is key. In an example of this past weekend when I showed my youngest (10) how to react if he tips over his kayak (first kayak try), I first wanted him to understand that if he can't show me how not to panic, he doesn't ride period. We spent 20 minutes in shallow water tipping the yak then emptying and repeat to a point where it was fun for him. I had to tip him the first time but by the end he was tipping himself. After understanding how to exit the craft without panic, we talked about "now what?". On the pond we were on, there was only a small stretch of shoreline that wasn't muck and reeds. Whereever he was on this pond, he would have to swim the yak back to the solid beach to right it. I explained it wasn't a race and the yak and PFD would keep him floating...just start swimming...you'll get there. He never did tip over that day but I felt very confident that if he did, he would come up smiling and we would be able to get the yak back.

Handling a canoe or yak is much like a bicycle. It seems unstable and easy to tip when first using but once you ride it for a while, it seems that it would be very hard to go over. The more time your family spends in the canoe, the less chance it will tip. For the first season, keep close to shore and in safe (warm water) conditions. Don't venture away from shore and protected coves until you feel everyone knows what to do and has practices the response to your satisfaction. Target small lakes and ponds with limited power boats on them. They are more fun and less hectic and you only have to worry about yourself. If the family is really really getting into it, take them down the Saco (you can rent an extra canoe from Saco bound if you like) for a day trip. It's shallow and easy to paddle and basically a long beach with sandy bottom. The stretch from Saco bound to the dam should be loads of fun or from the dam to Brownfield bridge. Arrange drop off/pick up with Saco bound.

Kamper · 09-10-2011, 01:33 PM

It's fun to practice tipping over, in shallow water. You also learn how well the flotation functions!

You can also have a contest to see who can put their life-jacket on first when already in water that's over their heads. People are usually surprised at how much effort it is.

09-08-2011, 08:29 PM	#1
pcmc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 412 Thanks: 211 Thanked 106 Times in 73 Posts	canoe tipping question We have just bought our first used canoe and went exploring over Labor Day weekend. What A Blast! We had so much fun. After reading the thread about "2 kayakers overturned in Meredith", I don't want to alarm anyone... My question is... what would you suggest I do to, purposly, close to shore, tip the canoe with us in it to give all of us a little experience as to what to expect if it should tip over on accident. I want my kids (and my wife and I)to know what to do, before, so there is less panic. I want to know if the canoe will sink out of site, or is it possible to up right. Also test the PFD's, just float around with them on, make sure they work well as designed. I haven't researched this yet so any advice very much appreciated. I'm concerned with people off in the distance see a canoe go over and calling for a rescue, is there a right way to practice over turning, any protocal? I take critisism well so feel free to lay it on.

09-09-2011, 07:57 AM	#9
camp guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro Posts: 1,134 Thanks: 284 Thanked 480 Times in 271 Posts	Canoe tipping question This is a great thread - thank you 'pcmc' for raiksing this question, and thanks to everyone who contributed useful answers, especially the video by VitaBene. I spent many years in the summer camp business, and teaching young boys and men about water safety was central to our waterfront programming. It is quite easy to teach safety if the participants are enjoying the learning session - and what's not to enjoy about canoes and water on a hot summer day. The video is right on, brings back a lot of youthful memories. Thanks for this thread.

09-09-2011, 11:46 AM	#14
jmen24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,139 Thanks: 223 Thanked 319 Times in 181 Posts	A little concerned. I have to say that I am a little concerned over some of the responses in this thread. The use of "fun" , "not a big deal", "easy", etc., should never be used when discussing how to properly train yourself in a rescue situation. It is fun to go out and mess around, roll out of the boat and do other things, that are similar to an emergency situation. But, I can tell you from personal experience and listening to the experiences of paddlers far more advanced than myself, that an unitentional dump in an unplanned area and time, is not fun, at all! The great thing about an actual training course is that you are put into a situation that you are not comfortable with and then forced to deal with the situation, using tools you have been taught. Playing around with camp mates, friends or siblings, does nothing to prepare you for the feeling of dumping unitentionally. The "where am I" feeling, "where are my boat mates" feeling, "what am I going to do", "how am I going to fix this", "I need to calm this person down". Also if you are solo, but have many other people in the area, you need to add the "I am all set, but how do I keep that person from trying to help, because I know what I need or want to do and they are messing that up". These are the thoughts that race through your head in the first 5 seconds. Proper training elimates the worry of answering those questions, because before you realize what happened you are already performing the first tasks needed to aid in a clean rescue of yourself. Repeating the exact same type of rescue prepares you for repeating the exact same type of rescue, the exact moment when you realize that what you are experiencing resembles absolutely nothing with "all those times we practiced tipping the canoe" is when panic sets in and bad choices are selected that make your life harder than it needs to be. Hate to be a Debby Downer, because the sport is so much fun, but sometimes things need to be taken seriously and not so much as fun. The experience could literally mean the difference between a good ending and a bad.

09-10-2011, 10:14 AM	#22
camp guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro Posts: 1,134 Thanks: 284 Thanked 480 Times in 271 Posts	Canoe tipping question Honestly, I think this question has been answered way more than necessary, I'm afraid that if too many more answers surface "pcmc" will be scared away from canoeing feeling that it is too technical. In "jmen24" last post, last sentence, he hits the nail on the head. Amen.

09-10-2011, 10:29 AM	#23
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	not to be a downer I had a used 13' sailboat and it turned over on me, I could not upright it by myself. When I got it too shore, I got rid of it. Last weekend I tried my neighbors Kayak, I got out about 60' from shore and it turned over, that got pushed back in, emptied and put away. I don't think them type of boats like me, I think the Kayak was laughing at me. Now back to the pontoon boat where I feel stable. Have really enjoyed this thread lots of good information, but I am not gonna try that again.

09-08-2011, 08:59 PM	#2
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	I can't really speak as to the "protocol" for doing this, but I commend your diligence for wanting to do this - and for your family to do this! I do this with new boats that I get - sailboats, canoes, even larger power boats - and each season for PFDs. I recommend you do this as close to shore as possible - but in enough depth to give you the practice dealing with the situations when you cannot touch/stand on the bottom. Start in shallower water, pretending that you can't touch the bottom - and then when you get that worked out, move onto the water you can't stand in. The big thing to learn/practice is - righting and getting back in the craft. You will undoubtiby learn stuff you need to know. For example, in my sailboat, I needed to add a couple of cleats to the hull to tie a line to to haul myself up. In a canoe, you might need to carry a spare line - (maybe with some loops for leg-holes) with you. On my larger boat - can I reach the latch to let the swim ladder down if needed? Do I need to change the latch? You need to learn these lessons and equip yourself properly before you find yourself out in the lake doing it in the "real-world". Other skills just need to be worked out- for example - maybe your kid's and Wife will need to hang on to one side of the canoe, while you climb in on the other. Again, best to have the procedures all trouble-shot and worked out ahead of time. Additionally, maybe your kids' PFDs don't give great buoyancy, or quite hold their heads far enough away from the water for weak swimmers in choppy waters. Furthermore, over time - people get heavier, and PFDs loose buoyancy! Another important part is just getting everyone used to it - so when/if it flips - there isn't immediate panic. In reality, tipping a canoe can be fun - but if it's your first time, and by accident it can cause panic - which is the last thing you'd want in the situation. Get everyone acclimated to it a bit, and if it does happen, it'll be no different than one of your practice drills. My kids were freaked out about the possibility of the sailboat capsizing - or falling out of the boat, etc. We went through some of this stuff - now they are quite comfortable with it. They even beg me to jump in and let them swim to shore (with their PFDs) as we get close to shore. So again - reading up on "saftey" and taking courses and exams and stuff are good - but none prepare you for the real-world aspects of what you'll need to do when the time arises. I commend you taking the time and attention to do this.

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09-08-2011, 09:10 PM	#3
rick35 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bear Island/Merrimack Posts: 709 Thanks: 55 Thanked 170 Times in 104 Posts	I found a lot of info on how to get back into a kayak on youtube and I'm guessing there are videos on canoes. I haven't tried it yet but i think i understand how to do it. I have a paddle float and a pump with me just in case. Getting back in will be tough. Getting the water out will be even tougher.

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09-09-2011, 05:02 AM	#5
VitaBene Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 3,530 Thanks: 1,570 Thanked 1,601 Times in 821 Posts	Or a second canoe to slide the capsized one over. I learned every way to tip a canoe over when I was at scout camp. This was how I was taught to right them! http://www.woonsocket.org/rescue.html

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09-09-2011, 06:52 AM	#6
donmac Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 47 Thanks: 17 Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts	I had my kids experience tipping a canoe when they were very young, primarily so they would not panic if it ever happened. As teenagers they could jump out of a canoe to swim and climb back in without thinking twice. If you have never done it before I suggest you do it alone first, so YOU know what to expect, then do it with the kids.

09-09-2011, 07:19 AM	#7
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,836 Thanks: 326 Thanked 1,626 Times in 562 Posts	Love this thread...it is so important to have a "drill" .........when we were sailing a lot,we'd dump the boat close to the beach, even with the jib out, just to practice. It got to almost be routine and we could right the boat in a couple of minutes. Important, too, for kayaks and canoes, especially with the kids. Good for you, pcmc for bringing this idea onto the forum. Lots of good ideas popping up..........really like the milk jug idea.

09-09-2011, 07:42 AM	#8
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,836 Thanks: 326 Thanked 1,626 Times in 562 Posts	Forgot to mention that we are taking a liking to inflatable PFD's because they are so compact and comfortable, especially for canoes, kayaks and sailing. We have both the belt and vest types and they work great. Only thing is, it's important to test them a couple of times in order to get comfortable and familiar with them. We buy the refill CO2's, test them, and after you've repacked them with a fresh cartridge a couple of times you have confidence in them and it feels so nice to have the freedom of not wearing one of the bulky older style PFD's.

09-09-2011, 09:13 AM	#10
jmen24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,139 Thanks: 223 Thanked 319 Times in 181 Posts	The problem with the video is that it has quite a few people around to assist. If you are the only boat and all of you are in the water goes nothing like what is described in the video. What was shown in the video, I have never had the chance to use in a real life situation. Not saying that some haven't, but that is perfect world conditions. Most people will not be able to remove a swamped canoe from the water while in another canoe and especially if the only folks around are also in the water. The thing that is taught when guiding a paddle group is for the paddlers to forget about the canoe if it is swamped. In moving water, you need to stay away from the boat unless you have the skills to self rescue or are in an area that would allow for moving along with the boat without it crushing you against obstructions in the water. Most experienced paddlers will not attempt to self rescue unless everything is set. A canoe is an entirely different beast than a kayak and the techniques that work for one will not work for the other. They brace differently, sit lower to the waterline, have different stability issues and kayaks hold quite a bit less water. Paddle floats on a canoe paddle do not work, nor will they likely fit most blades. The broad area of the paddle blade will give you an equal amount of brace force. But we are getting ahead of ourselves. Your canoe will hold 300 gallons or so of water if it is fully swamped. The amount of energy to remove that water with bailers or a hand pump will be a lot. You have to remember that even though you are testing this close to shore, the likely situation will be quite a distance from shore, energy for swimming is critical. Using all that energy to clear the water from a replaceable object is never recommended. With that said, the situation needs to be assessed at the time it comes up. If you dump in choppy water, stay with the boat, but consentrate on signaling for help and timing your breathing to keep from snarfing up any quantity of water. Same goes for cold water. The canoe will not sink, even if fully swamped, unless the hull is ruptured or a gunwale is broken. If the water is calm and warmer (late spring, summer, early fall) then you may be able to remove some of the water from the boat to get it is sit higher in the water. The idea at this point would be to have one person get back into the boat and paddle it while the others swim along side. You kind of need to gauge whether or not the boat can handle more than one person, based on the amount of water in it. If you have kids with you then they should go into the boat anyway, they can bail while the adult paddles. When trying to get back into a canoe from the water it is important to remember that you alway want to stay upstream or upwind. This will keep the boat from moving around to much and will protect you from being pinned if an obstruction appears. If a single person is attempting to rescue than you should enter from the bow or stern of the boat, but on a side. This is the most stable area of the canoe, it also allows you to have a handhold on the far gunwale without overextending yourself. If you try to enter in the center, the boat will take on more water and most likely roll. If at all possible have two people enter the canoe at the same time from opposing ends of the boat, you will balance each other out. That is the skinny on the quick stuff, there are more advanced techniques, for moving water or pulling another person into the boat and so on. If you are interested, look into taking a swift water rescue course and some basic paddle instruction. The thing with taking instruction from experience paddlers, guides or organizations is that it gives you the skill set to not have to guess at what the most efficient means of rescue will be. Ever situation will be different, but you will have enough information is adapt something to what you are experiencing. Oh yea, how about some tips on not getting into a self rescue situation. First and foremost, do not ever put your hands on the gunwales of the boat while under way. Your paddles require two hands to be useful as a paddle, keep them there. When you touch the gunwales, you instantly change the center of gravity in the boat to the highest point and you will roll. Even when it gets knarly, keep your paddle in the water, even if you aren't paddling you will not be putting your hands on the boat. If you get caught on a rock in moving water that has you boat turning perpendicular to the flow of water, lean down stream, then assess what you need to do to remove yourself. If you lean upstream with the roll of the boat, the current will catch the gunwale and fill the boat and in the worst case, wrap the rock or log. Just lean downstream and catch your breath and stay calm. And last but not least, do not paddle outside of your ability unless you are in the company of someone that possesses the proper skills to guide you through the next step in your experience level. My wife and I have been paddling for over 20 years each and 12 together and have paddled all over New England from the serene to the big water nasty of the Dead. It is a great sport and you will love the freedom of an open boat. www.maineguiding.com Enjoy your new boat and happy paddling.

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09-09-2011, 09:21 AM	#11
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	If your canoe is anywhere near modern, it should be unsinkable. It will float even when filled with water. This doesn't mean it will float well or upright. I have a 20+ year old colemen that has foam floats in the ends, most fiberglass canoes have foam in the ends or under the seats. I've flipped my canoe, near shore, and they are heavier than the look. I had to swim the canoe to shore before I could reboard it. Try to flip yours it is a lot harder than it looks.

09-09-2011, 10:13 AM	#12
DickR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 735 Thanks: 4 Thanked 254 Times in 166 Posts	When my kids were in their pre-teen/early teen years, they and their friends would have a great time capsizing our 17' Grumman (aluminum) canoe in relatively shallow water. They would swim underneath into the air pocket, and those of us on shore could hear their conversations underneath the hull. Yes, a canoe full of water is heavy, so obviously one doesn't lift it out of the water, then turn it over to dump the water. In water shallow enough to stand on the bottom, two people can refloat the canoe, almost empty of water. All they have to do is rotate the canoe slowly on its long axis, with one edge clear of the water, while lifting. The hull is essentially rotated up and out of the water without lifting any of the water. If the canoe is completely upside down to start, simply rotate the hull to bring one edge up out of the water, then lift the hull slowly clear of the surface, then flip it quickly back onto the surface. Trying to do this in water too deep for standing on the bottom and without the aid of a second canoe to provide lift would be quite difficult. The 17' Grumman weighs 75 pounds, so two adults would have to lift 38 lb each. Doing that through scissor-kicking in the water seems elusive. I wonder if two large adults could push the hull up and empty enough with a sudden upward thrust. Of course the upward thrust also would push the men totally under water. Could four do it? It would have to be done by whatever crew the canoe was carrying. Four to a canoe? Unlikely.

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09-09-2011, 03:30 PM	#15
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

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09-09-2011, 04:23 PM	#16
rick35 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bear Island/Merrimack Posts: 709 Thanks: 55 Thanked 170 Times in 104 Posts	We always have our PFDs on so that's one less thing to worry about. Tipping over without it would make for a very tense situation. But we see people going by not wearing their PFDs all the time.

09-09-2011, 08:55 PM	#18
pcmc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 412 Thanks: 211 Thanked 106 Times in 73 Posts	Thankyou Everyone !!! Please keep the education coming, I have a lot to learn. You are all offering very useful information that can help everyone. There are some helpful youtube videos, but nothing that would take the place of an instructer's course. Thanks again!

09-10-2011, 12:14 PM	#24
MikeF-NH Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 317 Thanks: 2 Thanked 120 Times in 80 Posts	If your kids are younger than teens, I would never take the canoe more than a few hundred feet from some. Most "interesting" things are close to shore anyhow and being way out in the middle is no fun. Being close to shore makes it much easier to simply swim the canoe to shore and use the techniques described above to empty and right it. That said, I've used a canoe for over 20 years and never come close to swamping it. The trick is don't over load. Two adults and 2 pre-teens in a 16 footer is asking for it. The kids won't sit still and will be in the middle of the canoe where they are more likely to shift from side to side (especially if something interesting is seen on one side). Two people in a canoe is best IMHO. Secondly, sitting on the seats raises your center of gravity and makes the canoe less stable. Have paddlers kneel and nobody should sit on the twarts or if there is a middle seat, use it as a back rest not a seat. The best way to work with capsizing emergencies is to prevent them. Also all kids under 16 are required to wear a PFD. If you are wondering away from shore, everyone should wear one. Enough on prevention: Avoiding panic and having a "drill" on how people react is key. In an example of this past weekend when I showed my youngest (10) how to react if he tips over his kayak (first kayak try), I first wanted him to understand that if he can't show me how not to panic, he doesn't ride period. We spent 20 minutes in shallow water tipping the yak then emptying and repeat to a point where it was fun for him. I had to tip him the first time but by the end he was tipping himself. After understanding how to exit the craft without panic, we talked about "now what?". On the pond we were on, there was only a small stretch of shoreline that wasn't muck and reeds. Whereever he was on this pond, he would have to swim the yak back to the solid beach to right it. I explained it wasn't a race and the yak and PFD would keep him floating...just start swimming...you'll get there. He never did tip over that day but I felt very confident that if he did, he would come up smiling and we would be able to get the yak back. Handling a canoe or yak is much like a bicycle. It seems unstable and easy to tip when first using but once you ride it for a while, it seems that it would be very hard to go over. The more time your family spends in the canoe, the less chance it will tip. For the first season, keep close to shore and in safe (warm water) conditions. Don't venture away from shore and protected coves until you feel everyone knows what to do and has practices the response to your satisfaction. Target small lakes and ponds with limited power boats on them. They are more fun and less hectic and you only have to worry about yourself. If the family is really really getting into it, take them down the Saco (you can rent an extra canoe from Saco bound if you like) for a day trip. It's shallow and easy to paddle and basically a long beach with sandy bottom. The stretch from Saco bound to the dam should be loads of fun or from the dam to Brownfield bridge. Arrange drop off/pick up with Saco bound.

09-10-2011, 01:33 PM	#25
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,296 Thanks: 67 Thanked 166 Times in 126 Posts	It's fun to practice tipping over, in shallow water. You also learn how well the flotation functions! You can also have a contest to see who can put their life-jacket on first when already in water that's over their heads. People are usually surprised at how much effort it is.