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07-05-2008, 09:28 AM | #1 |
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Sound travels at night
Sometime after midnight (wife says close to 1am) I was awakened from a sound sleep by the roar of a very loud boat passing between Bear and Mark at full throttle. I have to say it was very unsettling and in that first waking moment all I could think of was is this guy going to crash into my camp. I kept listening for the crash until after he was gone. It was that loud.
We have always taught our kids that we need to be more quiet at night when sound carries and to be respectful of our neighbors. Apparently other parents didn't share that idea with their children. That doesn't even take into consideration what happened on Diamond Island a few weeks ago. That thought was very much in my mind until the boat was past. Some people don't get it and never will. |
07-05-2008, 11:08 AM | #2 | |
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07-05-2008, 11:20 AM | #3 |
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Have to agree with KC on this one....
Lakefront has its privileges and its drawbacks - though the drawbacks are VERY few in comparison. One is noises on the lake late night. If this is the first time you've been awakened then consider yourself lucky - or maybe this is your first season, in that case get used to it! Not everyone takes into account how their actions directly or indirectly impact others - thats reality. Noise machines, an airconditioner, or fan (like KC said), work best at masking the sounds of the lake. I am sure there are those who will argue and say that somehow it is within their rights to not be disturbed...and I am not disagreeing with you, only trying to offer a suggestion if our friend is a light sleeper.
I prefer the sounds of the lake over a fan, ac or anything - and on occassion, will be jarred out of bed by the sounds of a large boat with a noisy engine. (AGENDA??) Nope, I wish my 20 foot runabout had the capability of noises like the bigger guys but in reality it doesn come close - though it would sure enable me to get back at my neighors every now and then...although I must admit having an infant in the camp during the summer - windows wide open and baby screaming at 4 or 5am sometimes just makes me smile, knowing the neighbors have probably just hit REM4 and were jarred awake! And at 5am - since I am up with the babies - I get in my boat with the baby and head off to get my cup a joe and morning news! Sorry if the dog barks incessantly as I leave her on the dock...that would drive me crazy!! |
07-05-2008, 12:01 PM | #4 | |
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I was saying I'm sure it's on SOMEONE'S agenda to ban boating at night, not pointing the finger at anyone in specific. |
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07-05-2008, 04:08 PM | #5 |
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Kona, you are so right. When the new law takes effect the loud boats coming in slowly at night will drive us crazy. I remember a few years ago we had one that came in every single Sat. night very slowly, it took about 45 minutes. It woke the whole neighborhood up (well, many of us). Then they would dock, shut it off, then start it up again before stopping it. I think those that love the speed limit law are going to hate the noise. They will get what they asked for!
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07-05-2008, 04:33 PM | #6 |
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I'd like to see a rule change
There are a LOT of boaters who like the rumble of their high performance boats, who stay under the noise limit as they should, who would gladly dampen the noise at night if they could do it legally.
The state of NH made it illegal to have devices like Captain's Call or Silent Choice and the like. These allow you to switch the exhaust from rumbly to quiet. My boat had it but the MP's made me disable it (and I don't have a high performance boat by the way). Some people who are forced to choose between loud or soft, go loud to keep the cool sounding rumble. Friends of mine without Captain's call wish they could have it so they could come into the marina quietly at night. Why doesn't some representative propose a bill to change that? Why not let people quiet their boats down at night and be rumbly by day? Ugh. It makes no sense. |
07-05-2008, 09:26 PM | #7 |
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Maybe I am lucky that this was the first time I was jolted awake by a passing boat. I've been on the lake for almost 30 years and a property owner for 16 and this was by far the loudest I've every heard.
I'm not suggesting that there should be some new law that regulates decibles but I'm sure there are some who would love to see one. Another new sound I heard this week was the sound of blaring music playing from a boat pulling wakeboarders down a little from our camp. I guess we've been lucky that it hasn't caught on like it has other places. I've seen posts in other boating forums about people installing powerful sound systems in their boats and mounting big speakers in their wakeboard towers. I don't appreciate loud music in our neighborhood at home and its even worse at the lake. It goes against the very reason why the lake has been a special place. Its really about courtesy and respect for other people around us. Unfortunately there less of it these days. |
07-06-2008, 06:54 AM | #8 |
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I must admit, I love the rumble of the boats too. Since there is a decibel law, I suppose that is the reason they have the law against the devices. MP couldn't tell if someone's boat could be above 82 because they switch to quiet when they see the MP.
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07-06-2008, 07:05 AM | #9 | |
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Like he said some people just do not get it. |
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07-06-2008, 08:01 AM | #10 | |
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They always turn down the noise when THEY want to talk! |
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07-06-2008, 08:03 PM | #11 | |
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If you want to talk about lack of courtesy, how about all the boats in the area that have no idea of what 150' looks like??? Do you know how many times in the course of a weekend we have close calls, get cut off or just witness stupidity? A guy in a scarab on Saturday cruised by my boarder who was in the water waiting to be pulled at no more than 50' away. We yelled, blew the horn and "saluted" and he just smiled and drove on. Some of the residents on the island, just down from me, are offenders. Maybe you??? As far as a particularly loud boat that night, I was awake and by a campfire at that time and do not recall anything out of the ordinary. Night traffic in general has been almost non-existent lately, and with the stepped-up MP patrols in the area due to a few phone calls it has been more peaceful lately. Any music requests? Maybe "Who let the dogs out?" in honor of the concentrated trolling efforts recently of 2BD? Last edited by codeman671; 07-06-2008 at 08:21 PM. Reason: forgot to pay tribute to everyones favorite troll |
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07-06-2008, 09:05 PM | #12 |
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Wasn't me. Even with fewer boaters out there seem to be as many knuckleheads who have no respect for the 150 foot rule. I always stay way away from anyone pulling a tube or skiier. You never know when the rider might go down and even 150 feet is not enough.
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07-07-2008, 07:47 AM | #13 | |
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I'm opposed to anybody driving over the rights of others to the detriment of a full enjoyment of Winni's natural attributes or to driving over any other boater, for that matter. AND cats. The "150-rule" was not the best way to deflect your own contribution to the noise level. Especially on weekends, Winni's high noise level can impact on-shore telephone use, ordinary conversations, those asleep, those listening to music, nature, or just listening to the wind in the pines. Not to mention the noise level that can impact boating emergencies, sounded signals, the sounds of warnings, cries for help, telephoning for help, and the hampering of an actual boating rescue or capsize. "Driving over others" includes those who are so intolerant of others that they still use switchable exhaust among their neighbors, throw wine bottles in the lake, and turn up the stereo to play "Who let the Dogs Out". Expect a post from me when those who think their personal concept of boating does not "impact" other boaters or lake residents. KC, Winni's boating is entirely recreational in nature, but can have serious consequences. "Driving up to your cottage" is not recreational in nature. Coastal Laker, for every marina you should enter with "Captain's Call" at the appropriate setting, there are thousands of Winni residents asleep. All the above was brought to mind by stumbling across the site www.rottenneighbors.com. Who might be the next Winni boater featured on a video someday?!?! |
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07-07-2008, 08:41 AM | #14 |
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Same here this weekend, with the gorgeous weather. Every idiot within 100 miles had to be here. SOS though.
1) Too Close, Waaaaay too close for comfort 2) Tubting, even wakeboarding between anchored boats in beach area in about 6' of water 3) Some idiot in a GSBL (go slow be loud) boat, racing two PWC's FROM THE BEACH 4) Police boat stopped a PWC, no issues I saw, and a dinghy in the beach area. After 45 minutes total, police boat took off never to be seen again. 5) Large cruisers making larger waves, too close 6) One GFBL boat going waaaaaay too fast and too close in the bay. 7) Many smaller boats refusing to change their straight line course (center of channel) regardless of whether there was a blowboat or another boat towing someone on a tube. Police CG presence? I'd give them an F overall for the busiest weekend of the year. Laws broken? Too many to count. |
07-07-2008, 10:15 AM | #15 |
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Rick35
That boat went between Bear and Pine Islands as well. There has been a boat doing this for years. Usually Friday or Saturday nights between midnight and 2 AM. Very load and very fast, I wait to hear if he will hit the no wake marker, but he never does. Either very lucky or good night vision. The old marker has a big metal thing that got hit real bad. The newer one is much lighter and will do less damage. And he ALWAYS goes by south to north. |
07-07-2008, 10:50 AM | #16 | |
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Sounds like an ideal candidate for the MP to wait for. Have you phoned in the boat's coordinates and MO? |
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07-07-2008, 11:39 AM | #17 |
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I did notice that someone hit the red/white spar at the tip of Bear this weekend, either Friday or Saturday night. The top was almost sliced off. I know my stereo did not do that
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07-07-2008, 11:53 AM | #18 | |
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I have NO IDEA what you mean by this or what your point is. MY point is that you're in much more danger driving up to your "recreation" destination than you are when you're sleeping at your recreation destionation. I have no clue what you're trying to reference by that statement. |
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07-07-2008, 12:24 PM | #19 | |
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I wonder if he will do it next year? It will be harder to get away with if he is breaking the law all the time instead of just busting the zone. |
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07-07-2008, 02:20 PM | #20 |
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Isn't he already breaking the law? Sounds like he's going through no wake zones without slowing down; probably going too fast for conditions already. What will the speed limit do?
I'll take a guess that he'll still be doing this next year.
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07-07-2008, 04:49 PM | #21 | |
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By next year I should have an infrared camera with motion detection isolated on the NWZ. Then I can email his picture to the MP. |
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07-07-2008, 05:24 PM | #22 | |
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07-07-2008, 06:02 PM | #23 |
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Next year, BI's night-time offender will be identified by an unseen officer with radar.
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07-07-2008, 07:12 PM | #24 | |
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Boats going by don't bother me at any speed. The lights and the sound are relaxing actually. If I didn't like the site and sound of boats, I wouldn't live on a point. You seem to be stuck on your own stereotyped image of speed limit supporters. Your boat hating islander theory is mutually exclusive. |
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07-07-2008, 07:21 PM | #25 | |
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07-07-2008, 08:42 PM | #26 | |
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Choose wisely, most "motion detection" cameras work horribly outdoors and will trigger many false alarms. Get something with a decent cut filter and adjustable imager settings and you should get some good shots with just the moonlight. You'll likely want at least D1/4CIF resolution as well. Megapixel would be good, but probably not strickly necessary. |
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07-07-2008, 10:43 PM | #27 | |
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I don't get it. What are you after? Will it give you "closure" to catch the opposition in a semantic error? Do you have to make every thread about speed limits? How can anybody know the intent of an unknown person? He is breaking one law now... if he does the same thing next year he will be breaking two. What is your point? |
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07-08-2008, 07:17 AM | #28 | |
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KC, why the "shove" aspect to these questions at this thread? First, we are to "shove" our fingers into our ears against noisy boaters? Second, we are to "shove" concerns about lakefronts being struck....right after one WAS hit? One poster wrote here, "Good luck trying to enforce this" and intended to, "boat as I always have". Let me ask you, doesn't that "shove-it-attitude" of a poster here fit the template perfectly to be Bear Islander's targeted night-time offender? .....Since it only takes a handful of boaters to ruin it for everybody, there's a lot of arrogant "shoving" going on here..... |
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07-08-2008, 07:47 AM | #29 | |
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07-08-2008, 07:55 AM | #30 | |
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07-08-2008, 07:56 AM | #31 |
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i guess with the speed limit in place, MP hears this guy and then starts chasing him around the lake? doesn't sound all that safe to me. sounds like the probability of an accident goes up significantly.
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07-08-2008, 09:52 AM | #32 |
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You are using faulty logic. By your way of thinking our highways would be safer if we didn't have speed limits on them. Because then the police would not be chasing offenders. But that's not the way it works, is it! Do you really think boats will run from the Marine Patrol? Where will they run to? Where can they hide? Winni is a closed environment.
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07-08-2008, 10:44 AM | #33 | |
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That said, I see your point and honestly do not expect to see any high speed chases on this lake... |
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07-08-2008, 12:13 PM | #34 | |
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BI, what the heck? He runs nightly at high speed and very loud through a NWZ and you're wondering if he'll do it next year? I guess you're saying the enforcement is so lacking that you need to be breaking a law everywhere to occasionally get the perp? I'd be far more worried, and very annoyed, about someone doing that in a NWZ than someone going 50 mph at night. Different breed of arrogant. |
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07-08-2008, 12:44 PM | #35 | |
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I have the MP on my scanner. Every hour each boat out reports their location. That time of night it's usually one boat on a large lake. All in all the guys that really get me are the ones that follow behind you when your tubing. That is world class stupid, yet legal if he is back 150'. It doesn't happen often, but once is to many. Steve it seems boats busting a NWZ gets you angry. If so don't live next to a NWZ. |
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07-08-2008, 12:52 PM | #36 |
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It's really not nearly as bad as people would have you think. Winnipesaukee is a very polite and low-key place to boat. We truly are spoiled.
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07-08-2008, 01:45 PM | #37 |
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Because we expect too much of our boaters?
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07-08-2008, 02:34 PM | #38 |
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We're just talkin' about the future
Forget about the past It'll always be with us It's never gonna die, never gonna die Rock 'n' roll ain't noise pollution Rock 'n' roll ain't gonna die Rock 'n' roll ain't no pollution Rock 'n' roll is just rock 'n' roll |
07-09-2008, 06:46 AM | #39 |
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07-09-2008, 11:13 AM | #40 | |
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I don't, but you do. Yes, busting a NWZ irritates me. I guess I'm just still stuck in the past with what you claimed irritated you, not the recent proclamations as to what you're really concerned about. Yes, congestion sucks, we all have to deal with it somehow. I hate the boneheads. I hate boats cutting me off, and those that are way too close. Boats following those with tubers or skiers also bother me. But I do state what I mean, and do not obfuscate the message, nor do I mislead the reader. I try to focus on real issues and try to participate in solving them. One of the very first things I would have done over there, is push hard for years for increased MP funding, not more laws. But then again, I addressed the problems stated, not hidden agendas. |
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07-09-2008, 12:03 PM | #41 |
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I'm probably the only person on the forum who welcomes NWZ violators.....I live in a no wake zone and it's nice to have a few waves to clean my beach every now and then.
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07-10-2008, 12:08 AM | #42 | ||
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Read this post by Woodsy from 2005. In it Representative Pilliod, the author of the original bill, clearly states it is all about "Fear". He also makes it plain he thinks high performance boats don't belong on the lake, and that they should go to the ocean. http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ad.php?p=23856 Quote:
So you see Steve this hidden agenda stuff is pure baloney. So please either stop posting about it or tell me specifically what you think has been hidden. |
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07-10-2008, 06:57 AM | #43 |
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Let's just see how this goes
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=506
Bear Islander - 4-15-2008 ""Is 45 mph safer than 55 mph? Yes. " Thank You! That is all the justification I need for HB847 All the rest of the rhetoric is justification, denial amd misdirection. Plus a sad attempt to rewrite the Coast Guard statistics. A 45 mph speed limit will make the lake safer." Bear Islander 4-15-2008 "I didn't pick 45. I would have chosen a higher number. But that is the legislation we have. I have chosen to support it. If every speed is safer than the one higher, then a speed limit will make the lake safer." Bear Islander 4-16-2008 "I wish the 150' rule were really the panacea you think it is. Unfortunately it is not a magic shield against boating accidents. It did not prevent last years fatal accident, or the one 5 years ago. It would not have made any difference if there was a 150' rule on Long Lake last summer. Violations of the 150' rule are possibly the most common boating complaint on this forum. It has been pointed out many times that large numbers of boaters seem unaware of its existence. Even if the 150' rule worked as well as we all wished it did, it would not change the fact that slower is safer." Ok enough, I'm busy today. You've used water quality, erosion, kids camps, referenced 90mph in a NWZ, noise, just about everything. The past two weeks or so, you get into the Congestion. You just plain think having the speed limit would cut down on congestion. In various threads, you say you never said this was about safety, waves, pollution, whatever. In another reference, you even state that you would have made the daytime limit higher than 45. I know it's sometimes confusing to stay focused when responding to so many different issues. But if you had always stated that congestion and lowering the mount of boat traffic on the lake was paramount, then that would have been the focus of your arguments. Until lately, it never has been. And unfortunately, I have wasted far too much time going back through your posts trying to come up with a central theme. There are many Central Themes, which have of course changed over time. Now it's congestion. I guess you're correct, there has been no Hidden Agenda. I remember the discussions over waves and how the law would help that. I was puzzled, then we moved onto another facet of the debate. Your real agenda didn't actually dawn on me until sometime last month. That's about the time you finally stated it. If you stated this much earlier, then forgive me, I must have missed it. |
07-10-2008, 09:15 AM | #44 | |
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45 IS safer than 55. That IS all the justification that is necessary (however there is a lot more) Coast Guard statistics DO support HB847 A 45 mph speed limit WILL make the lake safer I DID NOT pick 45 45 IS lower than I believe necessary Bigger boats DO cause more pollution Bigger wakes DO cause more erosion Water quality IS dropping Children's camps ARE limiting their boating There IS fear in the lake community The lake DOES have a thrill-seeking reputation Tourism IS negatively effected by the above Every word is true. Every word is consistent. Every argument points to a reason I support speed limits. I am not limited to one argument. I can have more than one agenda! |
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07-10-2008, 10:12 AM | #45 |
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Bigger boats DO cause more pollution
Bigger wakes DO cause more erosion Water quality IS dropping QUOTE] What's next...no boats on the lake over 18 feet??? YADDA YADDA YADDA. Careful what you vote for....I don't want to be swimming to the island in ten years! |
07-10-2008, 12:13 PM | #46 |
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New buzz word
First,boats that didn't fit winnfabs and their supporters idea of what should be on the lake were labeled Go Fast Be Load.Then the lake has been labeled dangerous because of the "Cowboy" and "Wild West" attitudes.Now any boat that can go much faster than 45 is labeled a "Thrillseeker".The scare tactics continue even after the law was signed in.What's next?Will it be those evil"Mechanical Monsters" that used to be called power boats?
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07-10-2008, 01:27 PM | #48 | |
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To mention the word "sound", and before still another Boating thread ends up in a certain sub-forum...... What I'm seeing is too many boaters arrive from out of state at this lake (and this site) and declare that they are exactly what this lake needs in the way of the ideal boater......As if to say, "I am an above-average boater and have the certificate to prove it". We can't ALL be above-average! What I hear instead, is stereos and exhausts that are anathema to a scenic lake crowded with islands, with loons, with views of mountains, and fully ringed with residences great and small. What I see instead, is the collective self-absorption of boaters suddenly become a world unto themselves. Suddenly nearsighted when approaching wildlife, kayaks and sailboats even at casual speeds......but at closing speeds even greater than the appearance, given the direction and velocity of the target-kayak or target-sailboat. Posters on this forum, btw, stand out for at least two reasons. One, because they are not afraid to criticize the inconsiderate, negligent, reckless or dangerous operation of other operators in the face of those who would put their heads in the sand so as not to see. Or two, they boat on Winnipesaukee's waters because their own states' lakes are "too restrictive" for their concept of boating or boat. Prior, Winni's boaters HAD been among the most considerate in my experience. Perhaps it was because they had more to lose with their little boat, or that insurance wasn't a consideration at one time for one's boat. I've never insured any of my boats, for example. I drive them as though any loss, including theft, would be a personally significant loss. Others like me would leave a skier to retrieve a dropped ski because they could. Others could be counted on to pick up the trash left by others or Mother Nature. I ask, is the lake for our use AND abuse? Today, many drivers are too high above the lake's surface to reach down for those things that don't belong on the lake. Do they, themselves, belong on the lake? Today, too many recent boaters (and even some new residents) consider a swimmer to be approved roadkill. Even though, like last year's sinking Cobalt in the middle of the lake, they would end up as swimmers themselves! Those of us who are actual residents are at the mercy of noise, speed, alcohol, arrogance, ignorance, self-absorption, the distracted, the "above-average certified boater", the night......and sometimes.....all the above. |
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07-10-2008, 02:02 PM | #49 | |
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In my opinion a bad boater is a bad boater...what does it matter what "state" they are from? Is this YOUR hidden agenda 2bd? Where do you think all your fellow supporters over on BI are from? It ain't NH!! As far as the Cobalt sinking in the middle of the lake what does this have to do with anything? Are you now saying that innocent swimmers are being run down by big bad boats? This is bordering on the absurd, truly. |
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07-11-2008, 07:59 AM | #50 | |
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By now you probably have heard that hi speed boats are running over kayaks on the lake and has become so bad that we had a speed limit passed to eliminate that problem.It has now been brought to my attention that swimmers are being run down intentionally also.Interesting though is the thoughts of some of our local residents like the above quoted BD who tells us in this post that only people like himself are qualified to recreate on Lake Winni.If you are from another state(which I am not) or you disagree with his twisted view of the world,you should be banned from ever being on the lake.This is where these warped thinking people who have already started the ball rolling are going folks.WAKE UP and see what's going on people.I don't know about you but it this kind of thinking that should scare the heck out of all of us!
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07-11-2008, 08:37 AM | #51 |
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Seems to me you're being overly dramatic here. Polls showed NH people wanted this (yes I know you disagree with the results of the poll), the house voted for HB 847 by a wide margin, then the senate voted for it, now the governor has signed on as well. And just like people would legislate,say, against someone relieving himself in a town park, people have similarly said they don't want another beautiful resource (Winni) defiled. And the house, senate, and governor listened. I've heard all the arguments about "fear mongering" and such but people are able to see through the BS of politics and polititians and make up their own minds. People we talk to are very happy and excited about the new limits.
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07-11-2008, 11:31 AM | #52 | |
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What I have posted is that SOME high-speed boaters are traveling faster than their ability to spot smaller, slower boats in time and that I have personally had high-speed boats unintentionally violate my 150 foot zone because they were going too fast. And this has happened way too often while I’ve been kayaking on winni. I’ve never suggested that a speed limit will eliminate all safety issues – anymore than highway speed limits solve all safety issues on the highway – both are merely tools that are used to make both activities safer for everyone. Congestion, BWI, and ignorance/disregard for existing boating laws are also major problems on the lake – but all these problems become even more dangerous with higher speeds. With all else being equal, slower is safer.
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07-11-2008, 11:41 AM | #53 |
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I never claimed that you did.
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07-11-2008, 12:28 PM | #54 |
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These ARE the problems on the lake. Enforcement of the current rules will alleviate these major problems. A feel good law based on lies and hype will not.
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07-11-2008, 12:58 PM | #55 | |
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And I didn't say that you claimed that I did. But I am interested in where you (or anyone else visiting this forum) heard that "hi speed boats are running over kayaks on the lake." Who ever suggested that was happening?
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How is this a "feel good law," anymore than a highway speed limit is one? The law was based on people's testimony that a lake speed limit was needed. I gave my own testimony, which was based on my own actual experience and on documented statistics - and I did not exaggerate in any way and I do not lie.
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07-11-2008, 01:00 PM | #56 |
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Evenstar you attribute speed to the reason these boats violated the 150" rule? I don't see the connection as I can violate that rule whether I'm putting along at 10 mph or 100 mph. Why would speeding make me more apt to violate that rule??
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07-11-2008, 01:47 PM | #57 | |
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Because there have been numerous, documented cases where it has been shown that speed, and speed alone were the direct result of accidents on highways. These facts just didn't exist in Concord.
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07-11-2008, 02:31 PM | #58 | |
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Let's say an accident occurs next summer.What if the speed of the boat is 45 MPH?...then people might well conclude that that was better than if the accident occurred at 65 MPH. What if there are no accidents?...one could also conclude that HB 847 was effective. What if there's an accident at 65 MPH?...conclusion:need to put further scrutiny on these few offenders who are breaking the law. Then there's the testimony of people who enjoy the lake more when GFBLs are no longer legally zipping by them at 65 MPH just 150' away from their rowboat while fishing. And don't forget improvement of Winni's embarrassing wild west reputation(which came well before WINNFABS). People will indeed realize in 2 years that the world did not suddenly stop spinning in its axis just because of HB 847. |
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07-11-2008, 02:59 PM | #59 | ||||
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And when there is a boating accident, there's no accurate way to estimate how fast the boat was traveling - the main tool for estimating auto accident speeds are tire skid marks - boats don't leave skid marks. Chief Warrant Officer Jim Krzenski, Commanding Officer, U.S. Coast Guard Station Fort Pierce happens to agrees with me: “Avoiding collisions on the water differs in many ways from avoiding collisions while driving in your car. The one contributing factor which is similar between boats as compared to automobiles is SPEED. It has been statistically proven that the number of collisions between vehicles, be they of the marine or roadway type, are reduced as speed is reduced.” http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/122098tip.htm
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I'd enjoy the lake more (and I don't own a boat capable of exceeding 45MPH) if there weren't fishermen in boats in the middle of common powerboat paths, or kayakers paddling along with idiotic grins on their faces in front of town docks while boats come in and out, attempting to maintain proper distance from other boats. In fact I'd enjoy the lake even more if EVERYBODY else stayed off the lake at the random times that *I* want to use it. Of course, much like the supposedly perfect worlds that you and Evenstar pine for, I realize that these wants of mine are unrealistic and unfair. |
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07-11-2008, 04:47 PM | #61 | |
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Or, like your other data points is this just your own belief? (We already know that you are a human radar gun and rangefinder, able to accurately judge speeds and distances of moving objects.) |
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07-11-2008, 04:51 PM | #62 | |
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She could make great strides in lake safety by simply riding with the NHMP boats and acting as a human radar gun. No electronic detector would ever be able to warn the nasty power-drunk GFBL boaters traveling faster than their ability to see that the Evenstar 5000 was watching them. Of course, she would have to be sure to not be wearing her BLUE bikini and YELLOW lifevest and waving her ORANGE paddle tips **** |
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07-11-2008, 05:24 PM | #63 | ||
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Or do you BELIEVE that the laws are being enforced 100% of the time on 100% of the lake? Pick one, because, if my logic is so flawed, these are your only choices. How is quoting Chief Warrant Officer Jim Krzenski just my own belief? How is stating that there's only 2 square miles of the lake that is more than a mile from shore just my own belief? How is stating that those silly kayak flags are not endorsed by any paddling site just my own belief? (I even provided the link to the largest paddling site). How is my statement the boats don't leave skid marks just my own belief? (does anyone here actually believe that boats leave tire skid makes?) Quote:
OK, so where is your PROOF that anything that I have stated is not true? Or is that just your own BELIEF? Or are your posts just lame attempts to try to discredit anyone who supports the speedlimit law, by making fun of anyone who does not share your own BEFIEF that there is nothing dangerous in allowing power boats to travel at unlimited speeds on NH lakes?
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07-11-2008, 05:48 PM | #64 | ||
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But, the world is not measured in the binary states you seem to think everything distills down to. Since you seem to be unable to follow the spirit of the other posts about enforcement and safety and speed limit laws, it is basically this: 1) For every speed limit argument you (and most others) have posted, the situations described could be avoided or handled through laws currently on the books. 2) The NHMP appears to be operating on an inadequate (and shrinking) budget. They do not appear to have the resources to enforce or manage the existing laws. 3) As violations of current laws have shown, people will have a tendency to ignore laws they find burdensome when they feel the danger of getting caught is small or nonexistent. 4) Adding more laws and regulations with the false hope that the new laws will some how be the ones people finally follow is a pipe dream. Quote:
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07-11-2008, 05:50 PM | #65 | |
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You brag about your skills far to much to be credible, this is of course my opinion. Many people on this forum have above average skills in one thing or another, I have not heard anyone on either side of the issue throw them into conversations as often as possible like you have. Ease up a bit, one doesn't need to go to such extremes to make a point. Quoting people out of context is meaningless. Chief Warrant Officer Jim Krzenski does not patrol our lake. I could certainly drum up all kinds of quotes, if I really set my mind to it, that would support no speed limits. Unless those people have been here and on the lake to experience things, and can see speed is not a problem here, it's irrelevant. |
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07-11-2008, 07:29 PM | #66 | |
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So if so-called high speed powerboats are coming within 64 feet or less from you, do you think the real problem is the speed they are traveling at is hampering their vision (again, at 64 feet!) and preventing you from being seen sooner or the utter lack of common courtesy or disobedience of the laws in place is the problem??? My experience on Winnipesaukee or on boats in general, which I can say is clearly a lot more than yours, is that most boats on Winni ignore the 150' rule. Did it occur that these close calls had nothing to do with the speed being traveled, that it was their non-compliance to the 150' rule, lack of common sense or lack of courtesy that is the problem? You have mentioned in previous posts that on one particular occasion you could see the smile on the drivers face as he flew by you at a short distance, clearly seeing you. You stated this yourself. If he saw you and was smiling, was his speed the issue? The speed limit is not going to fix your problem. You are looking through rose colored shades and/or drinking the coolaid if you think you will be safer. Winnipesaukee in general this year is a ghost town compared to previous years, and it is not the speed limit that is pending quieting things down. |
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07-11-2008, 10:08 PM | #67 | |||||||
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1.) If the operator of a powerboat is traveling beyond his ability to see other vessels in time to remain clear of their 150 foot zone, that law is not protecting them. I contend that in these cases, the only real solution is to force boats to slow down. 2.) Where’s your proof that the NHMP is “operating on an inadequate (and shrinking) budget”? Or, to use your own words; “is this just your own belief?” 3.) Again, where’s your proof that this is so? Because I totally disagree with your conclusion, and one of my majors is Legal Studies. According to my professors, most people will try to follow most laws most of the time. And what is so “burdensome” about a 45mph lake speed limit? 4.) Times change. Laws that were sufficient in early times need to be updated due to changes in society, in the environment, in new technology, or because of new information. And it is much more difficult to amend an existing law than to enact a new law. Quote:
Perhaps most other members don’t feel like I need anyone to “come to my rescue.” Or perhaps they are not willing to become a target of the anti-speed limit members here. I get all sorts of email support from many non-vocal members here. Quote:
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07-11-2008, 10:44 PM | #68 |
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It's a waste of my time to do so. We all know a speed limit will change nothing. You won't agree. I don't care. I'm done.
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07-11-2008, 11:31 PM | #69 |
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Apples vs Oranges
Evenstar,
Regarding the comments of Chief Warrant Officer Jim Krzenski, he does not patrol waters with a 150' rule in place. To be fair, I believe this is an important fact that has to be considered. This is somewhat like apples being compared to oranges. The 150' rule is an important Lake Winnipesaukee rule and to compare a statement made by a respected CG professional who partols waters without the 150' rule to our lake is clearly unfair. Just my opinion. Enjoy your summer break! R2B |
07-12-2008, 12:17 AM | #70 | |||
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If you want switchable exhaust you're better off petitioning the NHMP for a rules change. Quote:
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07-12-2008, 06:37 AM | #71 | |
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This post started about sounds at night, why are you dragging this into another kayaking rant??? You got what you asked for, I hope you feel safer now. I bet you won't and when you figure out that your concerns were not addressed by the speed limit, what next? |
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07-12-2008, 06:37 AM | #72 |
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I admire you guys for taking the time and having the patience to write as much as you write. It takes a lot of time and thought to write that much. I would just get sick of (essentially) writing the same things over and over again. And as much as I think the speed limit is a foolish, unnecessary law, I wish almost every thread wouldn't turn into a speed limit argument. I would just ignore Evenstar and BI. I couldn't argue that much. My two cents ---not that anyone cares.
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07-12-2008, 06:59 AM | #73 | |
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Once again, you read things through your own blinders and filters. |
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07-12-2008, 07:25 AM | #74 | |
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Evenstar - if you know what I feel then .....
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Which one of your skills lets you know how I feel? I won't challenge your credibility however that is one heck of an impressive skill. You also know how these "few" with fast boats feel. Wow. Please note: I am NOT one of the "few" with a boat that travels at or over 45 mph (Let me qualify that to close any legal loopholes - My boat can go over 45mph downhill or when it's on the trailer towed behind a truck on the road) but it does not even get to 40 mph at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) on the Lake. I am one of the MANY who believe that additional speed regulations are NOT needed on Lake Winnipesaukee. One of the MANY without a FAST BOAT that feels this way. In spite of what you claim, I do NOT "feel" that anyone has the right to travel at UNLIMITED SPEED on the Lake. OF course I don't believe that it is legal to travel at UNLIMITED SPEED on the Lake - there are regulations regarding safe speeds already - but that has been discussed and discussed so many times that I'm disgusted. Anti 45/25 mph speed limit law does NOT mean advocating Unlimited Speed - Unlimited Speed is not currently legal anyway. Can you tell how I feel now? Nevermind, no answer is necessary. I have no desire to debate with you. I just want to set the record straight. On topic, there are also laws about SOUND LEVELS which address sound - no need for speed limits to regulate SOUND. Better (modified) sound laws would be nice though. kayakers love water --- boaters love lovers
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07-12-2008, 07:36 AM | #75 |
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The last thing I intended when I started this thread was to get redirected to another pointless discussion on speed limits. Every argument that could be made has been made. I have an oppinion on that but since it at least one other poster has voiced it I have not repeated it. If I may, the original intent was to discuss inconsiderate boaters who don't realize or care that sound carries at night. I'll even include inconsiderate (and stupid) boaters who have no regard for safe passage.
Hope everyone has a great day on the lake today. I'm stuck at home doing home repairs. Rick |
07-12-2008, 08:58 AM | #76 | |
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07-13-2008, 06:42 AM | #77 | |||
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In all honestly, it holds about the same water (no pun intended) as Chief Warrant Officer Jim Krzenski and his report on cars and boats in Miami. For the record, Jim's rule #6 sounds like a great idea. Very similar to one we already had on the books. Quote:
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07-13-2008, 07:48 AM | #78 | |
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rick39,
You didn't see where this thread was headed when you first saw the word *agenda* mentioned by opponents in post #2, 3, then 40? Post #2 for example...., Quote:
Skipper, Perhaps this season alone will prove the necessity for the new law. Even then, your side will have three years to exhibit their safe boating practices to NH residents. I wouldn't put *your* eggs into *their* basket, however. If a few drunks get pulled over, that alone could save somebody's life, house, boat, plus change tourists' current view of Winni as lawless. You may not like the term Unlimited Speed, or that radar will now be used to spot offenders exceeding 25mph at night, but next season we ALL have a chance to find out. ********************* Yesterday, I was passed by a dark blue Cobalt at about 150 feet, maybe less, in a relatively open area, but "crowded" with many anchored smaller boats. They ARE fast boats! And I've seen two Formula cruisers, one the same size as June 15th's crash, one smaller. They ARE loud! |
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07-13-2008, 08:02 AM | #79 | |
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If you are going to post "Points of Information" you should check and see if they are correct. There was no kind of "regulations regarding safe speeds" before HB847. This lie is often repeated yet not true. There was no "reasonable and prudent" regulation. However there is one now. It is called HB847. If you are a "Skipper" you should know this. |
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07-13-2008, 12:49 PM | #80 | ||||||
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No, I didn't "get what I asked for." I want what the original bill included - which is speed limit on all NH lakes and a law that would not only last for two years. Winni is not the only lake in NH where speed needs to be regulated. Quote:
And I never stated that all high-speed boaters feel this way. But that was the impression that I got at listening to the anti-speed limit testimonies at the House Committee Hearing. It was very much about the "right" to travel at unlimited speeds on NH lakes (and at this point in time the bill still covered all NH lakes) - it was not just about winni. Quote:
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Rick, this is the Speed Limit Sub-Forum - so you really can't expect the speed limit not to enter into posts here.
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07-13-2008, 02:31 PM | #81 | |
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Maybe you should be the one to get it right before correcting me... |
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07-13-2008, 02:43 PM | #82 | |
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Ten years later in 2006 that number had dropped from 8,026 boating accidents to 4,967 according to COMDTPUB P16754.20 In the same time period the US saw an increase in the number of Registered boats of 358,184 from 11,877,938 to 12,746,126. So of 12,746,126 registered boats 4,967 were involved in reportable accidents in 2006. I'll let you do the percentage. The number of registered boats does NOT include documented and unregistered vessels which according to one estimate in 1996 was about 8,000,000. I could not find an estimate of documented and unregistered vessels for 2006. So with more boats there were nearly half the number of accidents in 2006 as compared to 1996. Now, what does all this mean for Lake Winnipesaukee and a former CWO of a Coast Guard station in Florida's statements? Absolutely nothing! Last edited by Airwaves; 07-13-2008 at 02:46 PM. Reason: spelling |
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I clearly stated that they guy who swamped us was likely going slower than 40 mph and that he intentionally violated our 150 foot zone. How is that particular incident a contridiction (which is what you are suggesting) to my statements that speeding boats have unintentionally violated my 150 foot zone? The two are totally different incidents. Quote:
Here's my quote again: "In 1996, 5174 boat collisions occurred nationwide." Of course there will be a smaller number for just boating collisions, since all boating accidents would also include non-collisions. And, no matter how you try to dance around it, it is still a fact that "It has been statistically proven that the number of collisions between vehicles, be they of the marine or roadway type, are reduced as speed is reduced.” Slower speeds = less collisions = a safer lake for everyone.
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07-13-2008, 05:11 PM | #84 | |
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Looking at the USCG Statistics for 1996 there were 3,422 collisions with another vessel, fixed object or floating object. In 2006 the USCG Statistics show 2019 collisions with another vessel, fixed object or floating object and for last year that figure was 2030 Your point that collisions are reduced as speed is reduced doesn’t hold up to the statistics. The statistics show as boater education increases accidents including collisions decrease. BTW it also shows a rise in deaths associated with canoes and kayaks between 2006 and 2007 from 99 to 107! http://uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_stats.htm Be careful of those SUV's speeding down Meredith Bay! Last edited by Airwaves; 07-13-2008 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Corrected the URL |
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How does the fact that boater education decreases the number of collisions prove that that number of colisions do not increase as speed increases???? Quote:
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07-13-2008, 07:28 PM | #86 | |||
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Sorry, my mistake this is the correct link:
http://uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_stats.htm If you open the stats for 1997 you will find that it includes material from 1996. Quote:
The number of states imposing a speed limit did not skyrocket and the only speed limit recognized by the USCG is excessive speed as defined by Rule 6 and under Rule 6 excessive speed could mean 5mph or 100mph depending upon conditions. Even your favorite CWO says that as the number of boaters that take a NASBLA approved boating course incresease the number of boating accidents decreases. Quote:
NASBLA itself has begun looking into developing some kind of course for kayakers and canoeists because of the increasing popularity of the sport coupled witih the increasing number of deaths. BTW, I tried to see what the percentage of registered boats involved in collisions were in 1996 vs 2006, unfortunately my calculator isn't strong enough, the number came up 0.00 both times. ******************************** Okay, I found another calculator. So in 1996, with 3,422 collisions involving 11,877,938 registered boats in the U.S. the percentage of registered boats involved in a collision appears to be: 0.000293653%. In 2006 with 2,019 collisions involving 12,746,126 registered boats in the U.S. the percentage looks like 0.000158401%! As I said, what does the collision rate nationally have to do with Lake Winnipesaukee? NOTHING Last edited by Airwaves; 07-13-2008 at 09:18 PM. Reason: New calculations |
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07-14-2008, 09:11 AM | #87 | |
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What it comes down to is if you are that scared to be on Winnipesaukee, there are plenty of other bodies of water to play on. Nobody is telling you to leave or limit your activities, yet you choose to try to limit others. Other than a kayak being hit at night that had no lights and no right to be out there at that time, when was the last kayaker or canoer hit (during daylight hours) in NH??? Are you truly in danger??? Doubt it. |
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07-14-2008, 09:57 AM | #88 | ||
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Since your opinions could be used in court cases, let's bring this to the courtroom. [Hypothetical Court Case] I'm an attorney. You are on the stand: ME: When was the last time you were in command of a motorized vessel at 45 MPH? ES: Never ME: While you were in command of this vessel, did you have any issues spotting smaller, non-motorized objects? ES: {no response} ME: No further questions your honor. [/Hypothetical Court Case] We also know that you have no concept of what it is like to navigate at 45MPH, regardless of how long your kayak is, what color you're wearing, or any of the super powers you've been gifted.
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07-14-2008, 09:59 AM | #89 | ||
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It does not take a fatality to prove that allowing power boats to travel at unlimited speeds is an unsafe policy. My friend and I have have enough close calls with high-speed power boats to know that we have been in danger. And so have many other paddlers and other boaters. The fact remains that close calls are happening way too often - eventually there will be a fatality, and then perhaps you'll finally see the danger. If the main lake is so safe for paddlers, then why won't you or any other member of this forum take me up on my offer to join me kayaking on it? My offer still stands.
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07-14-2008, 10:18 AM | #90 | |||
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If this is true nationally, it also applies to winni as well as to every other large body of water in NH. Boats on Winni are not magically exempt from statictics, just because you and others here want it to be. Quote:
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07-14-2008, 10:33 AM | #91 | |
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As an aside, thank you for getting rid of that posting lag. It keeps me busy at work.
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07-14-2008, 01:01 PM | #92 |
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Perhaps people fear you are as tiresome to be around in person as you are on the forum. At least here most people can choose to ignore your tedious repetitive posts or just skim through them. Out on the lake I suppose an iPod would be the only way to escape your lectures and chicken-little routine.
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07-14-2008, 01:39 PM | #93 | |
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07-14-2008, 02:43 PM | #94 | ||
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Evenstar accuses Codeman of not being man enough to admit he made a mistake.Ryan apologizes to Evanstar for his mistake.Evanstar quoted here says she is not scared to be on Winni.Read it yourself. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
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07-14-2008, 04:47 PM | #95 | |||||
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If you don't get it yet, I'm afraid that I just don't know how to explain it any better. The honest truth is that I am not scared to kayak on winni, if I was, I would not paddle there.
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07-14-2008, 04:59 PM | #96 | |
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I find it mildly amusing that you continue to respond over and over and over again with the same material. My recent posts have just been low-effort attempts to keep you going (thanks for playing). My disinterest in kayaking with you has more to do with you than with a lack of desire on my part to kayak on the lake. It would serve no purpose to me, other than being a giant time-suck. I spend plenty of time on the lake in my boat, and see many kayakers enjoying the lake along powerboats. I also see boneheaded operators on both types of vessel. I do not need to spend time on the lake with you to know that you are wrong. I do very much appreciate your invitation though. You seem like a nice girl, a tad bit tightly wound with a touch of tunnel vision, but I'm sure you're tolerable in small doses. |
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07-14-2008, 06:11 PM | #97 | |
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OK, try this angle
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If 99.99% of all the boaters you come across see you and react sufficiently then it would be clear to me that it's reasonable to expect that you'll be seen and that the speeds have been sufficiently slow to allow that. If the reverse were true, that say only 10% of the boaters were seeing you and 90% were taking last second evasive action then it would seem that the ability to see and react to your presence is far beyond what I can reasonably expect of a normal human being. So what's the truth on Winni ? I can't speak for every other boater out there. I can speak for mself and like I said before, kayaks maybe harder to see but that's relative. They are easy enough to see, assuming the Capt (a normal human, not Superman) is paying reasonable and proper attention, so that there's more than enough time to see, comprehend and react to avoid a collision at much higher speeds than your desired 40 mph or the enacted 45 mph. That we don't have scores of runover kayaks and canoes is testimony to this. Is there a speed that above which I can't reasonably expect a normal human to be able to avoid you in a kayak; yes of course. The infamous 130 mph cat would, if run at it's max speed, be going too fast. Were such boats (or even lesser ones) common on the lake I wouldn't have a problem with speed limits. So to better understand whether you think there's a speed problem or an attention problem let me ask the follwoing questions. What distance do you think you're visible at under the conditions you mentioned above ? Is a boater, running say 60 mph and actually paying attention more likely to see and avoid you or more likely to miss you ? With regards to your 2'nd point above .... that's a longer response than I have time for but it's worth considering by all parties. But basically the bonehead boaters need to be identified and penalized and that takes more work that a simple speed law but in 10 years I predict people will be clamoring for action along that line because the lake will be full of Capt B's towing kid on tubes ignoring all the commonsense rules and "we" will be asking where all the idiots came from*. *assuming anyone can afford gas in 10 years. And in case you asked, the idiots come from a society where nothing more than medocrity is expected and excellence is disparaged.
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07-14-2008, 08:16 PM | #98 | ||
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Lastly, if people do not heed the 150' rule, why would they even bother adhering to any sort of speed limit?
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07-14-2008, 09:01 PM | #99 | |||||||
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I can generally tell when boaters who are within my 150 foot zone don’t see us – which is really obvious by their reaction when they do see us. Notice that I wrote “us” – because I’m not the only one there – I have a witness, who saw the same reactions that I did. The only thing we don’t have is video proof – but generally having a reputable witness is enough. Quote:
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Again (and I really don’t know why I have to keep repeating myself – if you guys paid a little more attention to what I post, I wouldn’t have to post much at all): Not every boater pays attention as much as they should. Not every boater has perfect vision. The glare from sun and spay can greatly reduce visibility. Some boaters are impaired to various degrees by the alcohol they have consumed while boating. Add all those together and we have potentially a major visibility problem. Add high-speeds to any visibility problem and we have a potentially very dangerous situation. Quote:
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07-14-2008, 09:14 PM | #100 | ||
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And don't give some USCG statistic from Miami, or Long Lake or any other lake that does not have such a rule in place to avoid these situations. You can also sort by BWI and delete those as well. Ceteris Paribus statistics are all that I am interested in. Quote:
#2 - In bad taste. I know you're chomping at the bit for the investigators to publicize their findings in hope that it supports your agenda. But let's wait until then before you draw any links.
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