Prop Advice

[Shreddy]

I'm looking to upgrade the prop on my boat and need suggestions for the best alternative. Have a '92 Four Winns 220 Horizon. It's an awesome boat and is big and spacious but not overwhelmingly efficient or fast. It goes as fast as I need it to go (between 30 and 40) and most of the time I'm just putting around slow cruising anyway, but think a lot of progress could be made with a prop replacement. Right now it has your typical 3 blade? steel prop on it. No clue on pitch, etc.

My brother in law has the same boat only a newer model and I think has the volvo engine. His is much faster and efficient, but also a smaller model. His prop is one of the dual blade stainless steel props.

My question is, what's the best enhancement I can achieve for my boat? I'm sure I may be restricted by the outdrive, but would like to know what alternatives are there before I simply upgrade to a 26 foot bow rider. Any advice is appreciated and thanks in advance.

[8gv]

Has anyone done a compression check on your engine?

[Top-Water]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

****No clue on pitch, etc.****

My brother in law has the same boat only a newer model and I think has the volvo engine. His is much faster and efficient, but also a smaller model. His prop is one of the dual blade stainless steel props.

A tough question to answer for a variety of reasons, but you might have some luck getting some help, by first finding out exactly what your "brother in laws" boat has and compare as much information as possible. I'd start with engine horsepower, hull & engine weight, prop diameter, pitch and blade style.

As mentioned his boat is a little different than yours but you would have "some" information that you could compare against each other.

You might even try calling "Four Winns" for recommendations, after twenty two years they might have some information that could steer you in the right direction or even offer a loaner propeller to try (most likely with a deposit if returned un-damaged).

It could save you a lot of time and money guessing. Many boat manufacturers are reasonably helpful with things like this. Initial investment is not much more than a phone call to see if any improved prop designs are available specifically for your boat and motor combination.

[Dave R]

What engine and drive do you have?

Before you do anything with the prop, make sure the engine is tuned up and making full power (leakdown test is highly recommended). Once that's done, see what the WOT RPM is with the boat on smooth water, with a medium-sized load and trimmed right. Once you know that, you can proceed with prop changes.

[ursa minor]

Damage to the prop can affect performance. Dings or chips on the blades can make quite a difference in performance. You need to find out what pitch and diameter you have now if you're considering a replacement, that's typically stamped on the hub of the prop. You also need to know what the recommended RPM range on your engine is at wide open throttle. Its really important to reach the recommended range, otherwise you risk overloading the engine if you have too much pitch. Assuming that your existing propeller is original, the pitch you have now would be the place to start.

[TiltonBB]

The message is confusing.

The brother in law has the "same boat" but smaller? Then I would say it is not the same boat.

Four Winns offers multiple engines in all of their boats so without knowing the exact boat and motor combination any comparison between the two boats would be difficult.

The op mentioned that the brother in law's boat has "dual blade stainless" props. If the brother in law's boat has Duo Props it would perform way better than a single prop even if it were the same size boat and motor.

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The message is confusing.

The brother in law has the "same boat" but smaller? Then I would say it is not the same boat.

Four Winns offers multiple engines in all of their boats so without knowing the exact boat and motor combination any comparison between the two boats would be difficult.

The op mentioned that the brother in law's boat has "dual blade stainless" props. If the brother in law's boat has Duo Props it would perform way better than a single prop even if it were the same size boat and motor.

Had a feeling this would be tough to explain, and figured might not get a good answer without all the good information.

For comparison, both of our boats are Four Winns 220 Horizons. The hull design of the earlier model I have made the boat to be much larger, specifically on the interior and in length as well with swim platform I believe. I have trim tabs, he doesn't. Engine difference is that he has a volvo penta and I have the older King Cobra engine I believe. Prop difference is hgue given he has stainless dual props where I just have the 3 blade steel.

Regardless, I think the best advice above was to contact four winns directly and see what advice they have in this area. My concern is that it could lead to the purchase of a new boat Trying to address the prop and upgrading it was my way of trying to get rid of the itch to upgrade the entire vessel.

[Woodsy]

Shreddy...

The boats are apples & oranges. You have an older single prop outdrive, he has a newer dual prop outdrive. There is no upgrade path for you (short of a complete replacement of propulsion system). OMC has been out of business for years. Changing the propeller is not going to gain you much if anything. The dual prop setup from both Volvo & Mercruiser are much better setups. If you like your boat and its in great shape, you can have it repowered to a newer dual prop setup. My guess is that will run you about $20K...


Woodsy

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Shreddy...

The boats are apples & oranges. You have an older single prop outdrive, he has a newer dual prop outdrive. There is no upgrade path for you (short of a complete replacement of propulsion system). OMC has been out of business for years. Changing the propeller is not going to gain you much if anything. The dual prop setup from both Volvo & Mercruiser are much better setups. If you like your boat and its in great shape, you can have it repowered to a newer dual prop setup. My guess is that will run you about $20K...


Woodsy

This is the answer I was looking for! I had a feeling this would be the case. Like I said, I actually love the boat and it's in great shape given the year. Handles phenomenally with the trim tabs, etc. and is actually quite spacious. Was simply looking to see if there were affordable alternatives available. Thanks, Woodsy.

[Woodsy]

Shreddy....

If you decide to keep your boat and repower it.... get a survey done first before you spend any real $$$. You need to make sure your transom & stringers are good. You don't want to find out they need replacing too.

These guys sell ALOT of repower packages...

http://www.dougrussell.com/


Woodsy

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Shreddy....

If you decide to keep your boat and repower it.... get a survey done first before you spend any real $$$. You need to make sure your transom & stringers are good. You don't want to find out they need replacing too.

These guys sell ALOT of repower packages...

http://www.dougrussell.com/


Woodsy

I'd upgrade the boat before I go through the hassle of repowering. Great boat, but upgrading has already been on my mind and I was just looking for a few reasons to justify not upgrading

[jayp603]

sometimes marinis have used props for sale, or ebay/amazon. do you want top speed? pulling power?
what year, engine displacement , hp, ?

[Descant]

I'd say you're ready for an upgrade, but a couple of years ago I upgraded from 1977 to 1996, so don't rush into anything. Maybe you can swap with the B in law and get his duo prop when he's ready to trade?
The earlier post about a survey may be worth thought. Some years ago I replaced the engine in my 1986 SeaRay with a similar engine from a Four Winns. The structural wood in the Four Winns, similar vintage, had all rotted and the boat was junked, even though the engine was good.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

Prop difference is hgue given he has stainless dual props where I just have the 3 blade steel.

Reading this has me thinking that you may not have a stainless steel prop since you refer to the DP setup as "stainless", and your prop as "steel" as though they were two different things. If your prop is painted it's likely aluminum and upgrading to stainless steel would make a huge difference, especially if you have a V8 engine. V8s make too much torque for aluminum props, IMO, and flex the blades under load. This makes the boat feel "mushy" while accelerating as the blades flatten out and lose grip. Stainless steel blades have substantially less flex even though they are typically a lot thinner than aluminum blades. Thinner blades require less power to spin so they are also more efficient.

If you currently have a 3 blade aluminum prop, a 4 blade stainless steel prop could really make you smile. It's a nice compromise between top speed (which will be roughly equal to the aluminum 3 blade, but not as fast as a stainless 3 blade) and acceleration (which would be better than either 3 blade prop) assuming it's pitched correctly.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Reading this has me thinking that you may not have a stainless steel prop since you refer to the DP setup as "stainless", and your prop as "steel" as though they were two different things. If your prop is painted it's likely aluminum and upgrading to stainless steel would make a huge difference, especially if you have a V8 engine. V8s make too much torque for aluminum props, IMO, and flex the blades under load. This makes the boat feel "mushy" while accelerating as the blades flatten out and lose grip. Stainless steel blades have substantially less flex even though they are typically a lot thinner than aluminum blades. Thinner blades require less power to spin so they are also more efficient.

If you currently have a 3 blade aluminum prop, a 4 blade stainless steel prop could really make you smile. It's a nice compromise between top speed (which will be roughly equal to the aluminum 3 blade, but not as fast as a stainless 3 blade) and acceleration (which would be better than either 3 blade prop) assuming it's pitched correctly.

I was just going to mention the same thing.....

There are all sorts of prop designs out there, pitches, number of blades, shapes and sizes. Finding the right balance will have a noticeable change in overall performance.

Without a doubt with a big heavy boat with a single stern drive you'll likely not be able to achieve the same performance as a duo-prop (two props counter rotating) however even just moving from a 3 to a 4+ blade prop will give you much more bite in the water. Just from my own experience of using a aluminum vs stainless prop I did not see any notable difference in performance at least with a 190HP Merc w/Alpha 1 stern drive. You may be able to find suitable performance in playing with different props and specifically pitches vs diameter. Just remember a few things as far as that goes.... there is a happy medium you need to achieve.

Pitches are measured differently depending on the number of blades the prop has. The lower the pitch the better the hole shot, but you go to low you may end up with cavitation problems as well as be operating the engine at an RPM outside recommended max RPM values at WOT. On the opposite side of the spectrum, if you go to high, it'll take much longer to get up on plane especially with a fully loaded boat, your top end speed at WOT may be faster at a lower RPM thus providing better "gas mileage".

I would suggest with a boat that size try a 4 or even 5 blade prop that is equivalent pitch wise to the 3 blade you have now and see how that works. After that try going up and down in pitch to see what difference that makes until you are satisfied with the performance. Most marinas are pretty good in allowing you to try various props so long as you bring them back in as new condition. Do bear in mind that the age of your stern drive may be a factor in what options you have to choose from.

[markt111]

Good info=good advise?

Need to know your engine specs, prop specs, top speed by GPS if possible and at what RPMs?

Propellers, especially stainless which is your better performing are expensive, you do not want to guess when spending $500 or so each prop. That being said I have a prop that you would be welcome to try in the spring, it's an OMC Raker

[Woodsy]

I have to disagree here guys....

1st... No single prop outdrive is going to match the holeshot and mid range performance of duo-prop design.

2nd... Going from an aluminum prop to a SST prop might net you 1-2 MPH top end with A LOT OF TESTING but there will be drawbacks. Think of propellers as gears... Everything is a compromise. You can gear it for max RPM and speed, but you lose holeshot. You can gear it for holeshot but you lose top end. In the end its always a compromise.

3rd... Shreddy mentioned his boat is a 94 and has an OMC drive. OMC went out of business in 98-99. They haven't been in business for 18 years. So his boat/motor combo is 23 years old. My guess is the engine probably has 800-900 hours (40 hours per year on average). The motor and outdrive are tired and not making peak HP/Torque. A mistake changing a prop could cause an outdrive or engine failure...

If I were Shreddy (and not ready to totally throw in the towel) I would figure out what prop originally came with the boat, and what do I currently have on the boat. Then I would go look for a similar pitch/rake/OD prop in SST. If you go to a four blade, drop 1" of pitch to start. Merc makes the hub kits so you can use a Merc prop on an OMC drive. This gives you tons of choices. But.... a new SST prop will run ya $450-$500 or so depending.

Woodsy

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I have to disagree here guys....

1st... No single prop outdrive is going to match the holeshot and mid range performance of duo-prop design.

2nd... Going from an aluminum prop to a SST prop might net you 1-2 MPH top end with A LOT OF TESTING but there will be drawbacks. Think of propellers as gears... Everything is a compromise. You can gear it for max RPM and speed, but you lose holeshot. You can gear it for holeshot but you lose top end. In the end its always a compromise.

3rd... Shreddy mentioned his boat is a 94 and has an OMC drive. OMC went out of business in 98-99. They haven't been in business for 18 years. So his boat/motor combo is 23 years old. My guess is the engine probably has 800-900 hours (40 hours per year on average). The motor and outdrive are tired and not making peak HP/Torque. A mistake changing a prop could cause an outdrive or engine failure...

If I were Shreddy (and not ready to totally throw in the towel) I would figure out what prop originally came with the boat, and what do I currently have on the boat. Then I would go look for a similar pitch/rake/OD prop in SST. If you go to a four blade, drop 1" of pitch to start. Merc makes the hub kits so you can use a Merc prop on an OMC drive. This gives you tons of choices. But.... a new SST prop will run ya $450-$500 or so depending.

Woodsy

Your post a few up was the advice I was originally looking for (could a change from aluminum to SST help). I know my outdrive was not setup the same as the Volvo my brother in law has. Yes, I mistakenly said steel when I meant aluminum. I have a painted aluminum three blade and know that could be better situated with a stainless steel prop due to less flex.

I don't really care that much about top speed, I just dislike that when I get the boat going say 30+ I feel like she's working pretty hard. Boat really doesn't have issue planing out, even with the number of people I throw in there, but would be nice to have a bit more.

Yes - old school OMC. Kept it great shape. Overall the boat is a strong 8, low 9 overall on interior and exterior. The biggest benefit is that it still rides like a dream and hands wakes and chop better than most bigger boats. Like I said originally, the model year I have is apparently the largest they made the 220 horizon for some reason. Was told this by Melvin Village way back when looking to upgrade my trailer.

Engine hours are actually around 500ish. The boat was purchased about 8-10 years ago from and older couple in their 70s that didn't use it much and putted around here and there. They were family friends.

I figure $4-500 on a prop would be enough of a "face lift" to hold off on a new rig for another year or two. Unfortunately, I'm itching for the H260 or a 24-27' er.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

Your post a few up was the advice I was originally looking for (could a change from aluminum to SST help). I know my outdrive was not setup the same as the Volvo my brother in law has. Yes, I mistakenly said steel when I meant aluminum. I have a painted aluminum three blade and know that could be better situated with a stainless steel prop due to less flex.

I don't really care that much about top speed, I just dislike that when I get the boat going say 30+ I feel like she's working pretty hard. Boat really doesn't have issue planing out, even with the number of people I throw in there, but would be nice to have a bit more.

Yes - old school OMC. Kept it great shape. Overall the boat is a strong 8, low 9 overall on interior and exterior. The biggest benefit is that it still rides like a dream and hands wakes and chop better than most bigger boats. Like I said originally, the model year I have is apparently the largest they made the 220 horizon for some reason. Was told this by Melvin Village way back when looking to upgrade my trailer.

Engine hours are actually around 500ish. The boat was purchased about 8-10 years ago from and older couple in their 70s that didn't use it much and putted around here and there. They were family friends.

I figure $4-500 on a prop would be enough of a "face lift" to hold off on a new rig for another year or two. Unfortunately, I'm itching for the H260 or a 24-27' er.

A 1994 OMC drive is likely a Cobra SX. Those are the same as the Volvo Penta SX of the same vintage and parts are and will continue to be readily available. If you like the boat, it's in great shape, and it runs great, a new prop may make you love the boat and save you a lot of money.

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Dave R

A 1994 OMC drive is likely a Cobra SX. Those are the same as the Volvo Penta SX of the same vintage and parts are and will continue to be readily available. If you like the boat, it's in great shape, and it runs great, a new prop may make you love the boat and save you a lot of money.

Thanks - that's what I'm thinking. Would love to invest in something newer, but this boat is in great shape, very spacious (fits 10 comfortably) and handles chop and wakes extremely well, especially with the trim tabs.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

Thanks - that's what I'm thinking. Would love to invest in something newer, but this boat is in great shape, very spacious (fits 10 comfortably) and handles chop and wakes extremely well, especially with the trim tabs.

Ever try putting the tabs all the way down and throttling up in chop? In typical Winni chop, my boat loves the drive trim up, trim tabs all the way down, and throttle set for a 30-35 MPH cruise. It slices through the waves better at that speed than it does at 20-25.

[DBreskin]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

I figure $4-500 on a prop would be enough of a "face lift" to hold off on a new rig for another year or two.

I have a variety of props for my OMC you're welcome to try, including a 19" pitch 3-blade stainless steel prop and a 18" pitch 4-blade aluminum. My boat is a 1992 Four Winns Horizon 200 with a 5.8L Cobra drive. PM me if you're interested.

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by DBreskin

I have a variety of props for my OMC you're welcome to try, including a 19" pitch 3-blade stainless steel prop and a 18" pitch 4-blade aluminum. My boat is a 1992 Four Winns Horizon 200 with a 5.8L Cobra drive. PM me if you're interested.

So I confirmed, mine is also a '92 (not a '94) and has an OMC. Until I uncrover the boat for the spring, I won't have more details but certainly a start. I'll send you a PM because this may be the stuff I am looking for! Very much appreciated!

[robmac]

one thing to remember an aluminum is far more forgiving on your outdrive than stainless if you happen to find something in the water

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by robmac

one thing to remember an aluminum is far more forgiving on your outdrive than stainless if you happen to find something in the water

Understood. Been navigating the lake for 20+ years so very familiar with the surroundings and understand the impact of hitting with SS v. aluminum

[SummerIslander]

If you're looking for better driveability under varying loads at lower cruising speeds, and NOT top speed, a 4-blade prop is a good choice. A 4-blade has more "grip" on the water and will definitely help you plane faster and stay on plane at lower speeds and under heavy loads. It improves low and middle-range acceleration. A 4-blade also helps with watersports because you can hold it on the edge of plane at lower speeds without falling back off plane, typically 2-3 mph slower than with a 3-blade prop. That can also mean a lower cruising speed on plane if you want to drive around in a leisurely fashion. The speed reduction for an equivalent 4-blade is around 3-4 mph at top end for most boats.

On my 20ft 1977 bowrider (2800 lbs displacement, 200hp v8), I went from a 19" pitch 3-blade to an 18" pitch 4-blade and got the results described above.

An equivalent 4-blade prop is one pitch size smaller than a 3-blade (for some reason the 4-blades come in even pitch size #s, 3-blade in odd pitch size #s), so for instance if you have a 19" 3-blade now, try a 18" 4-blade and see if you like it.

Aluminum is the way to go on Winni with all the rocks, at least where I am and with various family boat drivers with rocks their heads. Cheaper and repairable too.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by SummerIslander

I
Aluminum is the way to go on Winni with all the rocks, at least where I am and with various family boat drivers with rocks their heads. Cheaper and repairable too.

I hear that (love the rocks in their heads!!), but for better performance, especially with a V8, SS deflects far less.

[Shreddy]

Problem solved. Bought a new boat...has stainless

[robmac]

Congrats on your new boat! Hope you make new memories with family and friends out on the water

[Rich]

Nice! What did you buy!

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Rich

Nice! What did you buy!

Four Winns 240 Horizon (2006). Very happy with the upgrade and looking to put her in the water this weekend hopefully. I had no complaints with my earlier model, just wanted something a bit newer, more efficient, and better features.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

Four Winns 240 Horizon (2006). Very happy with the upgrade and looking to put her in the water this weekend hopefully. I had no complaints with my earlier model, just wanted something a bit newer, more efficient, and better features.

Congrats! Don't expect a massive difference in efficiency. The 240 will likely use more fuel per mile than your old 220 since it's heavier.

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Congrats! Don't expect a massive difference in efficiency. The 240 will likely use more fuel per mile than your old 220 since it's heavier.

Thanks, definitely not too worried about that aspect. I've always been of the mindset that if you can't afford the tank of gas, you can't afford the toy. Efficiency - I was looking for more of a cleaner drive, a bit faster, a bit smoother (although, now that I think back, the 92 is actually pretty smooth).

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Shreddy

Thanks, definitely not too worried about that aspect. I've always been of the mindset that if you can't afford the tank of gas, you can't afford the toy. Efficiency - I was looking for more of a cleaner drive, a bit faster, a bit smoother (although, now that I think back, the 92 is actually pretty smooth).

Longer and heavier should make it smoother. HP makes it faster. Did you get a lot more power?