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Old 07-12-2021, 09:57 AM   #1
fatlazyless
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Default open carry - Market Basket, Plymouth NH

Ok, so I really like the new Market Basket supermarket in Plymouth NH and typically go shopping there about two or three times per week. It has no self-service check-outs and has a good number of check-out registers staffed by Market Basket cashiers who are fast and friendly to get you checked out.

Lately, I have noticed there can be other shoppers inside the store, shopping with a grocery cart or a hand cart who also have an open carry, black semi-auto hand gun in plain site for everyone to see. I know you never see this at the nearby Walmart and I was surprised the first time I saw this and have now seen three different men doing their Market Basket shopping with a large gun holstered on their belt.

One time the man, about age-55, and wearing dark green army pants, dark green army sweatshirt with some unknown insignia on the front, and a black semi tucked into his belt was just five feet away from the Market Basket cashier, who saw him with the gun and seemed like she saw it and was somewhat concerned as she registered out my food items at the check-out.

There's got to be gun owners who keep their guns concealed away somewhere and do not go shopping at Market Basket while showing everyone they have a gun. Like, there is a big difference between concealed carry, and open carry in a NH Market Basket with numerous customers throughout the store.

One open carry guy was wearing a bright yellow tee-shirt and had a black semi-auto in a holster.

Another open carry guy was dressed like a cowboy actor from the movie Showboat, with theatrical style clothing, a white cowboy hat, and a black semi-auto in a holster.

Another open carry guy was dressed in quasi-military dark green pants and sweatshirt with a black sem-auto stuck under his belt with the handle showing.

So, why do these people, always men, choose to go to Market Basket-Plymouth and walk around the store aisles with a hand gun showing? Is it to show the other people inside the store that they have a gun? Is it because it is legal to do, they they apparently like to do it?

I know that other shoppers tend to leave the immediate area, and create space, distance, between themselves and the open carry person. It clears out a shopping aisle pretty quick, other shoppers make a fast exit when they become aware, and people just stay away from the open carry person.

In Plymouth NH, open handgun carry is not allowed at the Post Office, the Court House, Speare Hospital, Mid-State Health, Pemi Baker Community Health, CVS-Pharmacy, Rite Aid, and Walmart.

It is allowed at Market Basket, Plymouth NH which seems like a totally wackadoozie impossible situation for this Market Basket when they consider how their other shoppers inside the store tend to quickly create distance between themselves and the open carry person. Thanks, but no-thanks, I am staying away and keeping my distance from this guy, inside the store, you know what I mean!
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:14 AM   #2
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I don't understand it and never will. the open carry person
will be the first target
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Ok, so I really like the new Market Basket supermarket in Plymouth NH and typically go shopping there about two or three times per week. It has no self-service check-outs and has a good number of check-out registers staffed by Market Basket cashiers who are fast and friendly to get you checked out.

Lately, I have noticed there can be other shoppers inside the store, shopping with a grocery cart or a hand cart who also have an open carry, black semi-auto hand gun in plain site for everyone to see. I know you never see this at the nearby Walmart and I was surprised the first time I saw this and have now seen three different men doing their Market Basket shopping with a large gun holstered on their belt.

One time the man, about age-55, and wearing dark green army pants, dark green army sweatshirt with some unknown insignia on the front, and a black semi tucked into his belt was just five feet away from the Market Basket cashier, who saw him with the gun and seemed like she saw it and was somewhat concerned as she registered out my food items at the check-out.

There's got to be gun owners who keep their guns concealed away somewhere and do not go shopping at Market Basket while showing everyone they have a gun. Like, there is a big difference between concealed carry, and open carry in a NH Market Basket with numerous customers throughout the store.

One open carry guy was wearing a bright yellow tee-shirt and had a black semi-auto in a holster.

Another open carry guy was dressed like a cowboy actor from the movie Showboat, with theatrical style clothing, a white cowboy hat, and a black semi-auto in a holster.

Another open carry guy was dressed in quasi-military dark green pants and sweatshirt with a black sem-auto stuck under his belt with the handle showing.

So, why do these people, always men, choose to go to Market Basket-Plymouth and walk around the store aisles with a hand gun showing? Is it to show the other people inside the store that they have a gun? Is it because it is legal to do, they they apparently like to do it?

I know that other shoppers tend to leave the immediate area, and create space, distance, between themselves and the open carry person. It clears out a shopping aisle pretty quick, other shoppers make a fast exit when they become aware, and people just stay away from the open carry person.

In Plymouth NH, open handgun carry is not allowed at the Post Office, the Court House, Speare Hospital, Mid-State Health, Pemi Baker Community Health, CVS-Pharmacy, Rite Aid, and Walmart.

It is allowed at Market Basket, Plymouth NH which seems like a totally wackadoozie impossible situation for this Market Basket when they consider how their other shoppers inside the store tend to quickly create distance between themselves and the open carry person. Thanks, but no-thanks, I am staying away and keeping my distance from this guy, inside the store, you know what I mean!
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:46 AM   #3
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I don't understand it and never will. the open carry person
will be the first target
It never crossed your mind that having a person open carrying is a deterrent to a common criminal?

I'd personally never do it as it draws unwanted attention but I don't have a problem with those that do. I see no difference in whether or not it is concealed. An armed person is an armed person.
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Old 07-12-2021, 03:48 PM   #4
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It never crossed your mind that having a person open carrying is a deterrent to a common criminal?

I'd personally never do it as it draws unwanted attention but I don't have a problem with those that do. I see no difference in whether or not it is concealed. An armed person is an armed person.
An openly armed person is easily identified as such and to defeat. That deterrent is real in some cases, certainly but I believe the real deterrent in NH is the bad guys knowing that many of us do carry concealed.
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Old 07-12-2021, 04:26 PM   #5
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An openly armed person is easily identified as such and to defeat. That deterrent is real in some cases, certainly but I believe the real deterrent in NH is the bad guys knowing that many of us do carry concealed.
I think the real deterrent is we are a small state, with a tolerant population that for the most part lives and let's live without pushing our views on our neighbors. As a result people are not all that angry when shopping at Market Basket, and hence we don't need protection from open or concealed carry fellow citizens.

BTW I'm not at all anti-gun, but like others here I'll never understand someone that feels like they need to be openly packing when picking up peanut butter and wonder bread at the grocery store.
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Old 07-12-2021, 05:39 PM   #6
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An openly armed person is easily identified as such and to defeat. That deterrent is real in some cases, certainly but I believe the real deterrent in NH is the bad guys knowing that many of us do carry concealed.

Tucked in your bathing suit? Sorry, couldn't resist.....
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Old 07-12-2021, 06:00 PM   #7
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Tucked in your bathing suit? Sorry, couldn't resist.....
Ha- its the little one! See you this summer, I hope D!!
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Old 07-25-2021, 11:47 AM   #8
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It never crossed your mind that having a person open carrying is a deterrent to a common criminal?
What makes you think the open carry guy is not a common criminal?
How often do we hear about a "good guy with a gun" blasting away at a suspected shoplifter in a crowded parking lot?
How often do we hear of guns being stolen in burglaries, or a child shoots another child with a gun, because the "responsible" gun owner didn't secure the gun?
Just because someone buys a gun legally, doesn't mean he/she is a "good guy", or not irresponsible, or not a blithering idiot.

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Old 07-25-2021, 07:22 PM   #9
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What makes you think the open carry guy is not a common criminal?
How often do we hear about a "good guy with a gun" blasting away at a suspected shoplifter in a crowded parking lot?
How often do we hear of guns being stolen in burglaries, or a child shoots another child with a gun, because the "responsible" gun owner didn't secure the gun?
Just because someone buys a gun legally, doesn't mean he/she is a "good guy", or not irresponsible, or not a blithering idiot.
Why in the world would you think that a felon would draw attention to themselves by openly carrying a weapon? Absurd. More likely plain clothes LEO.

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Old 07-28-2021, 08:48 AM   #10
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Exclamation

States like Arizona are what I call the "new Americans" they dont have the longstanding identities of places like New England with our deeply ingrained beliefs, so sometimes they see the world differently, sometimes with a new clearer perspective. They are not always right, but they can be very different.

So this is their latest thinking on the open carry matter. Its an interesting take and not for everyone, probably not for me, but it is one perspective from "new America"

Enjoy ;-)

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Old 07-28-2021, 08:57 AM   #11
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States like Arizona are what I call the "new Americans" they dont have the longstanding identities of places like New England with our deeply ingrained beliefs, so sometimes they see the world differently, sometimes with a new clearer perspective. They are not always right, but they can be very different.

So this is their latest thinking on the open carry matter. Its an interesting take and not for everyone, probably not for me, but it is one perspective from "new America"
Yes--this is similar to what I was describing before. Not really serious self-defense, more like dressing up and pretending
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Old 07-28-2021, 09:12 AM   #12
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Yes--this is similar to what I was describing before. Not really serious self-defense, more like dressing up and pretending
No disagreement, and it is certainly not what we are used to seeing in the last hundred years, but in reality how are we harmed. Sorry but feeling uncomfortable or intimidated is not legitimate. Many feel just as uncomfortable seeing big burly men with beards and tatoos getting off their bikes and walking into the Market Basket, while most have gotten used to it.

I know of no cases where just the act of open carry has resulted in injury to anyone. The perceived risk is a fantasy. Its like seeing a 40' Fountain with giant supercharged engines on Winnipesaukee. Its just being there is not a risk to anyone, its when it is used improperly that it becomes a problem, and how often does that really happen??? We probably have far more 25' boats causing problems every day than any giant speed boat.

Same for open carry, I'll be willing to bet NH has far more murders caused by stabbing and being beat to death with bare fists then were the result of anyone who was openly carrying a handgun.

So whats next, steak knife registration, smart knives that can only be used by the registered owner, no hollow ground knives,,,

Its all a mater of perspective, not actual data driven fact.

And again, this from a guy who has never carried openly and probably never will.
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Old 07-28-2021, 09:51 AM   #13
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No disagreement, and it is certainly not what we are used to seeing in the last hundred years, but in reality how are we harmed. Sorry but feeling uncomfortable or intimidated is not legitimate. Many feel just as uncomfortable seeing big burly men with beards and tatoos getting off their bikes and walking into the Market Basket, while most have gotten used to it.

I know of no cases where just the act of open carry has resulted in injury to anyone. The perceived risk is a fantasy. Its like seeing a 40' Fountain with giant supercharged engines on Winnipesaukee. Its just being there is not a risk to anyone, its when it is used improperly that it becomes a problem, and how often does that really happen??? We probably have far more 25' boats causing problems every day than any giant speed boat.

Same for open carry, I'll be willing to bet NH has far more murders caused by stabbing and being beat to death with bare fists then were the result of anyone who was openly carrying a handgun.

So whats next, steak knife registration, smart knives that can only be used by the registered owner, no hollow ground knives,,,

Its all a mater of perspective, not actual data driven fact.

And again, this from a guy who has never carried openly and probably never will.
You're killin' me-- on the other thread you just advocated regulating paddle boards
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Old 07-28-2021, 10:33 AM   #14
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You're killin' me-- on the other thread you just advocated regulating paddle boards
Yes for factual reasons, not fear mongering.

Do you really believe just having a gun in a holster that is viable to others is of the same kind and level of risk a paddle boarder will be exposed to while navigating around the close quarters of a public dock being used at the very same time as power boats, with constant wakes coming in, variable wind, and a potential current?

I cant see how you can call them similar matters for risk.

But maybe you can articulate your concerns in the form of actual risk, and I will certainly consider any reasonable facts. For example should paddle boarders be required to wear tethers? As if the board gets away from them they are at even greater risk. Or should open carry holsters be required to be specifically fitted to the guns to ensure proper retention? We do not want loaded guns falling out of holsters!

Legitimate concerns are usually clear to everyone, whereas fear and fear mongering look very different.

Your opinions may well vary and clearly do on some matters, and you are entitled to your opinions no argument. Its when you impose restrictions on others that are not legitimate fact based risks that we will have disagreement.

Well so says I ;-)

ATB
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:00 PM   #15
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But maybe you can articulate your concerns in the form of actual risk, and I will certainly consider any reasonable facts.

ATB
Guns in general are obviously much more dangerous than paddle boards--check the interwebs for deaths. And I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the thousands of words you've written in just this thread, you've said that guns should not be regulated at all.

So yes, it's kind if funny that you would go after those crazy dangerous paddle boards
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:04 PM   #16
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Guns in general are obviously much more dangerous than paddle boards--check the interwebs for deaths. And I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the thousands of words you've written in just this thread, you've said that guns should not be regulated at all.

So yes, it's kind if funny that you would go after those crazy dangerous paddle boards
Guns are no more dangerous than anything else, the gun does not commit a shooting, the person does. The hammer did not bludgeon the person to death, the person holding the hammer did. Age old argument some will never get or admit. Carry on...
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:16 PM   #17
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Guns are no more dangerous than anything else, the gun does not commit a shooting, the person does. The hammer did not bludgeon the person to death, the person holding the hammer did. Age old argument some will never get or admit. Carry on...
DEJ, I honestly get that argument, and there is validity to it to some extent. I just think it can be carried too far.

Should shoulder fired missiles be legal? After all, the missile doesn't fire itself, the person aiming it at the plane does. To me it's just common sense that a pocket knife is more dangerous than a piece of cardboard, a butcher knife is more dangerous than a pocket knife, a handgun is more dangerous than a butcher knife, and a shoulder fired missile is more dangerous than a handgun. For some reason some people that support gun rights steadfastly refuse to say that a handgun (or shotgun or rifle) is a potentially dangerous piece of equipment. I agree that the person operates the gun, no argument from me about that. Just looking for perspective.
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:48 PM   #18
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DEJ, I honestly get that argument, and there is validity to it to some extent. I just think it can be carried too far.

Should shoulder fired missiles be legal? After all, the missile doesn't fire itself, the person aiming it at the plane does. To me it's just common sense that a pocket knife is more dangerous than a piece of cardboard, a butcher knife is more dangerous than a pocket knife, a handgun is more dangerous than a butcher knife, and a shoulder fired missile is more dangerous than a handgun. For some reason some people that support gun rights steadfastly refuse to say that a handgun (or shotgun or rifle) is a potentially dangerous piece of equipment. I agree that the person operates the gun, no argument from me about that. Just looking for perspective.
A handgun or shotgun or rifle is as much a potentially dangerous piece of equipment as a hammer, baseball bat, etc... It does not matter what the implement is, it is the person using said implement that inflicts harm. Can firearms inflict damage to more people quicker than a baseball bat, of course they can, no argument here. I think you get that and thanks for your comment.
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Old 07-28-2021, 01:11 PM   #19
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DEJ, I honestly get that argument, and there is validity to it to some extent. I just think it can be carried too far.

Should shoulder fired missiles be legal? After all, the missile doesn't fire itself, the person aiming it at the plane does. To me it's just common sense that a pocket knife is more dangerous than a piece of cardboard, a butcher knife is more dangerous than a pocket knife, a handgun is more dangerous than a butcher knife, and a shoulder fired missile is more dangerous than a handgun. For some reason some people that support gun rights steadfastly refuse to say that a handgun (or shotgun or rifle) is a potentially dangerous piece of equipment. I agree that the person operates the gun, no argument from me about that. Just looking for perspective.
Some valid and useful comments for all.

So let me reply be saying firearms ARE dangerous and by intentional design, AND most gun owners want them that way. Otherwise we would buy non-firing replicas.

Sure guns can and ARE used for pure recreation and I see no reason to justify why I enjoy shooting magnum handguns and high power rifles, its my fun, just like any buying a Tesla and bragging about its acceleration or someone buying a powerboat over a sailboat.

Like all things there is a use issue and concern, and there should be as well as accountability. But with few exceptions very modest regulation and restrictions.

As for your comments about shoulder fired missiles, well I dont recall any constitutional amendment specifically being written and passed by our government to ensure a personal right to such, and no writings by the founding fathers to promote such. They dont serve much use as personal protection unless you are in fact in a militia fighting back against a rogue government or military, but I suppose some could argue it. I probably would not support it.

As a country how gun control ever got so high on the list of concerns as to every result in the level of restriction we have is totally dumbfounding.

We cant provide food, water, homes, medical treatment, mental health care, and so many other necessary things to our citizens, and yet we can squander politicians time and taxpayers dollars on gin control! Its SHAMEFUL.

When we get the basic necessities right I'll try to be more open minded about whats next of the list. Until then I will remain totally discussed by the constant and ongoing failures of our politicians. For the most part, they are a corrupt and clueless bunch who should be replaced by computers that follow strict rules of law and the constitution.
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:07 PM   #20
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So yes, it's kind if funny that you would go after those crazy dangerous paddle boards
In the hands of an untrained person they are a menace. I've seen a person carrying a paddle board turn suddenly and mow down an entire family like they were bowling pins. Dangerous slabs of plastic for sure.
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:49 PM   #21
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In the hands of an untrained person they are a menace. I've seen a person carrying a paddle board turn suddenly and mow down an entire family like they were bowling pins. Dangerous slabs of plastic for sure.
Might have been said tongue in cheek, but I actually agree, the difference being the paddle board probably being more dangerous to the user.
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Old 07-28-2021, 01:09 PM   #22
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Might have been said tongue in cheek, but I actually agree, the difference being the paddle board probably being more dangerous to the user.
You know what, I'm going to agree with you on this. To the user, line up 1000 people with paddle boards and 1000 people with guns, and I'd guess the injury rate is higher on the paddle boards.

As for danger to other people, I don't think they are in the same universe. Guns inflict WAY more harm to others than paddle boards. Note this isn't in reference to the thread subject of open carry, simply commenting on guns in general.
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Old 07-28-2021, 01:17 PM   #23
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Guns inflict WAY more harm to others than paddle boards. Note this isn't in reference to the thread subject of open carry, simply commenting on guns in general.
Again, this is by intentional design and gun buyers what it that way.

No sense in buying a gun for self defense that only annoys a rapist/killer. For that you could buy an airsoft. When choosing a gun and ammo for defense you want the most possible stopping power you can get. If we could get Star Trek Phasers, I would have one!

As for paddle board safety, maybe we could lobby for mandatory sensors like in cars, so that families can walk by paddle boarders without constant fear of being knocked over like bowling pins. It will only double the cost of the board, and we should also license and register them, just so we can track the stats so we can discuss future restrictions based on facts, not just fear ;-)
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Old 07-28-2021, 01:24 PM   #24
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XCR, great posts.

We agree on many things I think. I too am far more concerned about the health and wellbeing of our fellow citizens. And to be honest my volunteer efforts revolve around the basic needs of people. I am not, and would not, volunteer my time on any sort of gun control debate or efforts.

I just like talking about it on a forum, takes very little time and no effort!
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Old 07-28-2021, 12:46 PM   #25
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Guns in general are obviously much more dangerous than paddle boards--check the interwebs for deaths. And I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the thousands of words you've written in just this thread, you've said that guns should not be regulated at all.

So yes, it's kind if funny that you would go after those crazy dangerous paddle boards
NOPE, NEVER said guns should not be regulated at all, might have said gun owner say no more regulation in response to way over reaching extremists, and thats not the same thing.

Guns are by design dangerous, especially when used as weapons, paddle boards are generally only dangerous when used in the wrong place and without personal protections.

If you don't see the difference between the two, probably not much I can say will change your opinion.

ATB
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:47 AM   #26
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As my wife would say...I wonder what he's compensating for?
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Old 07-12-2021, 12:34 PM   #27
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As my wife would say...I wonder what he's compensating for?
This thread will not end well.
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Old 07-12-2021, 04:29 PM   #28
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This thread will not end well.
You never know, sometimes a good conversation can stay civil. I don't think this thread will end SOON, but I do hold out hope that it ends WELL.
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Old 07-12-2021, 04:30 PM   #29
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You either support the Second Amendment or you don't...
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Old 07-12-2021, 04:39 PM   #30
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I do. Just because I wonder why people want to open carry at grocery stores doesn't mean I don't support the right to, within the law, bear arms.

I wonder why people like powdered donuts. But I support their right to have 3 or 4 with their coffee with 8 creams and 12 sugars.
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Old 07-12-2021, 04:57 PM   #31
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You either support the Second Amendment or you don't...
The Second Amendment as being discussed here and most other places is due largely to the 2008 case District of Columbia vs. Heller. Prior to that, the interpretation was not about an individuals right to bear arms the way it gets discussed today.

Many support the Second Amendment but do not interpret it to mean individuals have a constitutional right to carry anything, anywhere.

Do I want to see guns in the grocery store, on boaters out enjoying the day, or on people sitting next to me when I am out for ice cream with my kids? No. Do I live in fear of being shot by a crazed lunatic or a good samaritan trying to stop one? No. If I have to make a choice, I would rather see the guns people are carrying than have people with concealed weapons.
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Old 07-17-2021, 12:00 PM   #32
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You either support the Second Amendment or you don't...
That’s not accurate.

There are a number of reasonable people who are completely comfortable with guns in reasonable moderation but some of the arbitrary lines drawn by the organizations, institutions and powers that be might need some readjusting based on logic rather than precedent.

Many of us have guns and do carry without our entire existence, identity, and brain to be consumed by the second amendment.
Granted many gun owners do tend to be “1 issue voters” but not all of us.

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Ones comment on “compensating for something”. I ask you to grow up.
Because no one would ever think that way - seriously or in jest.

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Old 07-17-2021, 11:49 AM   #33
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This thread will not end well.
For who?


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Old 07-17-2021, 01:56 PM   #34
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This thread will not end well.

Actually, not too badly and mostly pretty well. If we end it soon.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:17 PM   #35
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Some people may find concern in the company of a stranger with open carry in a store and some people may find concern that the black man in front of them in line is about to hold up the store. What do they have in common?
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:30 PM   #36
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Some people may find concern in the company of a stranger with open carry in a store and some people may find concern that the black man in front of them in line is about to hold up the store. What do they have in common?
Best comment so far.
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Old 07-17-2021, 05:05 PM   #37
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Except skin color is a protected class.
If I lose customers or employees because someone with a skin color they don't like is shopping in my store... not really much I can do about that.

But for a non-restricted class... that becomes a different story.
We currently can't afford to lose any employees, and can lose a certain percentage of customers and still have too many.
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Old 07-17-2021, 06:22 PM   #38
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Some people may find concern in the company of a stranger with open carry in a store and some people may find concern that the black man in front of them in line is about to hold up the store. What do they have in common?
You seem to equate going into a store while Black with going into a store while carrying a gun openly. Even if we overlook the racial overtones, one of these people is making a choice/statement, the other is just going to the store
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:19 PM   #39
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You seem to equate going into a store while Black with going into a store while carrying a gun openly. Even if we overlook the racial overtones, one of these people is making a choice/statement, the other is just going to the store
No racial overtones involved. My statement/question brings to light the perceived unjust fears in both scenarios. And perhaps it sheads light on hypocrisy.
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:55 PM   #40
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The unjust fears are only a matter of the revenue equation to the person(s) that make the policy decisions.

I can not restrict someone for their skin tone regardless of any negative effect it may have on my customer base... it is a protected class.

While you may not be happy with the unjust fear of the customers, someone carrying a firearm is not a protected class. It is a choice that they are making.
So the policy is enacted by the business owner to protect their revenue, as any lost customer base due to the act is harm to the business owner.
It doesn't matter what the ''emotional'' equation is.

If customer avoided a business because too many Mercedes were parked out front, and the owner felt that was a detriment to their revenue equation, they could enact policy that no Mercedes were to be on their property.

The Mercedes owner may not like it, but they could either choose not to bring the Mercedes, or to shop another business. Mercedes owners are not a protected class.
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:31 PM   #41
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The unjust fears are only a matter of the revenue equation to the person(s) that make the policy decisions.

I can not restrict someone for their skin tone regardless of any negative effect it may have on my customer base... it is a protected class.

While you may not be happy with the unjust fear of the customers, someone carrying a firearm is not a protected class. It is a choice that they are making.
So the policy is enacted by the business owner to protect their revenue, as any lost customer base due to the act is harm to the business owner.
It doesn't matter what the ''emotional'' equation is.

If customer avoided a business because too many Mercedes were parked out front, and the owner felt that was a detriment to their revenue equation, they could enact policy that no Mercedes were to be on their property.

The Mercedes owner may not like it, but they could either choose not to bring the Mercedes, or to shop another business. Mercedes owners are not a protected class.
So in the end your only goal is to maximize profit? With the singular exception of wishing not to violate the letter of law, you have no other considerations for the operation of your business or how you treat the world?

Its a classic perspective, and I give you credit for being honest. Too often people say one thing and do another. I think its always better to know who you are dealing with. So I do appreciate your truth to your perspective and owning it.

That said, clearly you have not read or didnt buy into Lutz Laws of Business. Might be worth a look, the one about "the Primary Purpose of Business Is Not to Make Money" is of particular interest and especially when considered in todays time period and with an eye for bigger picture.

I suppose this is just another example of the rift that divides America.

It interesting to also note that some people have no concern that the law protects people of color (and other groups), they simply treat these people like anyone else regardless of the impact to the business, as they believe its just the right thing to do, not because the law requires it. The same holds true of open carry, or allowing children in your place of business, or people with outlandish clothing. Treat everyone the same because its just the right thing to do, not because you might violate a law by treating them differently.

Positive change takes time, and so it will be with acceptance that citizens are again embracing the notion of protecting themselves, so it will take time to become normalized.

Hopefully we will be able to have non-violent engagements and discussion about this, unlike so many other matters that become so hostile and personal and unproductive.

In the end the notion of imposing personal preference with restrictions is a longstanding method of controlling people, so it makes sense thats the first thing people propose. Looking back to all the things we have exiled, beaten, stoned and killed each other over (such as; how you dress, what you believe, how you talk ETC Etc etc) we should not be surprised at the response to open carry, its just disappointing that in 2021 we cant do better to accept something that in and of itself caused no harm or risk to anyone (open carry in Market Basket).

We must remember that as a country we are the still children of pilgrims and puritans who dictated almost every facet of life, so like all progress in the past, this too will take time to evolve.
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Old 07-17-2021, 10:59 PM   #42
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Since no two people are alike... treating everyone the same makes no sense.

I have customers that set an appointment, I have customers that simply walk in and demand service.

I have customers concerned with the quality and options of a product, and customers just looking for the thing that can be attained the faster or the cheapest.

I have customers that just left a Big Box with off the shelve pricing, looking for a special order quote to match that product, and want is at a discount. When I tell them that it can not be matched... they will not take my word for it and demand a computerized quote - that takes time for a sale that will never happen. Time that cannot be allocated to another customer waiting for something that they will purchase.

I have customers that demand to know what their contractor paid for product, because they do not trust the contractor they hired.

Believe me, if people spent just a few more minutes thinking about those other customers... then it would be easier to treat everyone the same.
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Old 07-17-2021, 11:25 PM   #43
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Since no two people are alike... treating everyone the same makes no sense.

I have customers that set an appointment, I have customers that simply walk in and demand service.

I have customers concerned with the quality and options of a product, and customers just looking for the thing that can be attained the faster or the cheapest.

I have customers that just left a Big Box with off the shelve pricing, looking for a special order quote to match that product, and want is at a discount. When I tell them that it can not be matched... they will not take my word for it and demand a computerized quote - that takes time for a sale that will never happen. Time that cannot be allocated to another customer waiting for something that they will purchase.

I have customers that demand to know what their contractor paid for product, because they do not trust the contractor they hired.

Believe me, if people spent just a few more minutes thinking about those other customers... then it would be easier to treat everyone the same.
Again an interesting perspective.

I don't know what your business is, and I guess it really doesn't matter, but its clear you are passionate about making your business successful, and ultimately succeed or fail, you are the one who must live with the outcome of your decisions.

If you succeed and in any part because you banned Mercedes from parking at your business because some of your customers demanded it, and you can live with the compromise (and maybe even agree with it) all I can say is congratulations.

If you succeed in spite of your not bowing down to some customers unreasonable demands I applaud you.

Yours is but one business and one perspective and one example. Thankfully there are many others and many who would not ban Mercedes parking on their lot, or people of color (even before it was the law) or imposing other seeming irrational restrictions. But in truth yours is the more common practice, thats why positive change takes so long. Thankfully there are people with perspectives bigger than the bottom line profit of any given day and they make more balanced decisions. And thats where I will continue to take my business, and I will attempt to continue to avoid the elitist people and businesses among us who would impose arbitrary restrictions.

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Old 07-18-2021, 01:14 AM   #44
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Again an interesting perspective.

I don't know what your business is, and I guess it really doesn't matter, but its clear you are passionate about making your business successful, and ultimately succeed or fail, you are the one who must live with the outcome of your decisions.

If you succeed and in any part because you banned Mercedes from parking at your business because some of your customers demanded it, and you can live with the compromise (and maybe even agree with it) all I can say is congratulations.

If you succeed in spite of your not bowing down to some customers unreasonable demands I applaud you.

Yours is but one business and one perspective and one example. Thankfully there are many others and many who would not ban Mercedes parking on their lot, or people of color (even before it was the law) or imposing other seeming irrational restrictions. But in truth yours is the more common practice, thats why positive change takes so long. Thankfully there are people with perspectives bigger than the bottom line profit of any given day and they make more balanced decisions. And thats where I will continue to take my business, and I will attempt to continue to avoid the elitist people and businesses among us who would impose arbitrary restrictions.

ATB
The point of those policies would be to make you go to another business. If you come to our business, and we get you as a customer, but lose other customers... no gain. If we lose employees... a definite loss.

So when I go to my dentist, I make an appointment... the door states to wear a mask, and sanitize my hands before a temp check. I do as directed.
When I go to the dealer for service on my vehicle, I make an appointment, the door ''heavily suggests'' that I wear a mask, so I put the mask on and after waiting patiently for the service desk manager to take my keys, I go outside and remove my mask. When the vehicle is ready, mask goes back on... I make the payment... and when I get back outside I take the mask off.

Business makes a request... regardless of my personal thoughts... I do as requested, or I find someplace else to shop.

If I have to pay a higher price or get a lesser degree of service, that would be the trade off for not being willing to do as the business requests.
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Old 07-18-2021, 06:22 AM   #45
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The point of those policies would be to make you go to another business. If you come to our business, and we get you as a customer, but lose other customers... no gain. If we lose employees... a definite loss.

So when I go to my dentist, I make an appointment... the door states to wear a mask, and sanitize my hands before a temp check. I do as directed.

When I go to the dealer for service on my vehicle, I make an appointment, the door ''heavily suggests'' that I wear a mask, so I put the mask on and after waiting patiently for the service desk manager to take my keys, I go outside and remove my mask. When the vehicle is ready, mask goes back on... I make the payment... and when I get back outside I take the mask off.

Business makes a request... regardless of my personal thoughts... I do as requested, or I find someplace else to shop.

If I have to pay a higher price or get a lesser degree of service, that would be the trade off for not being willing to do as the business requests.
Same mask experience this week. Needed new eyeglasses and went to Laconia Eye and the sign on door reads “masks are required”. Drove to another store and made my purchase. Personal chose


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Old 07-18-2021, 06:57 AM   #46
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Although I agree that most decisions are absolutely the right of individuals to make for themselves. And I am not criticizing the rights of people to make those decisions.

Yet, it seems a sad state of affairs when some decisions, such as those regarding personal medical care, seem to be increasingly driven by politics rather than competence.
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Old 07-18-2021, 07:10 AM   #47
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So ....... did you go to the optician at the nearby Gilford Walmart where they do not allow open carry of a hand gun inside their store because it tends to scare and intimidate the other customers?

http://www.optix-now.com/ecp/gilford...ion-center-840

THANK-YOU to each and every WALMART, about 4500-stores, in the U.S. in all 50-states that all have this NO OPEN CARRY policy since 2019.

If you were seated in the optician getting measured for new eyeglasses, and another patient/customer walked in and sat down who was wearing a hand gun, open carry, how would that make you feel? For me I would get up and leave, asap-pdq, absolutely positively, I would exit the optician office, immediately!
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Old 07-13-2021, 06:24 AM   #48
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As my wife would say...I wonder what he's compensating for?
A fragile ego.
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Old 07-16-2021, 05:15 PM   #49
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As my wife would say...I wonder what he's compensating for?
Glad someone pulled the trigger on that one. The hollow point is taken.

As a strict Constitutionalist.

All should follow what the members wrote in the US Constitution.

Dated: September 17, 1787

Any firearms should be ball and powder. Whether hand arm or long arm.

Stick to the US Constitution.
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:46 AM   #50
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Your statement “will be the first target” makes it clear to those of us that do carry you don’t understand. However, we will protect you if the need ever arises. You must remind yourself you live in one of the safest states in the country because of what you dislike and are uncomfortable with.


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Old 07-12-2021, 10:55 AM   #51
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Your statement “will be the first target” makes it clear to those of us that do carry you don’t understand. However, we will protect you if the need ever arises. You must remind yourself you live in one of the safest states in the country because of what you dislike and are uncomfortable with.


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I think what you're saying is that NH's less/unrestricted gun laws have led to lower crime rates. Most research shows that's not true.

Education, however, along with a good economy and access to medical and mental health are all directly connected.

Here's what many feel is the best research on RTC laws and their outcomes: https://www.nber.org/papers/w23510

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Old 07-12-2021, 03:39 PM   #52
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No, I understand very well. I carry concealed. From where i am sitting in my barn, I can reach a loaded M&P 40. I am comfortable with people carrying around me. In the case of one open carrying in a store, they would be identified as a potential threat to the bad guy and would be the first one eliminated.

You do whatever you please, but I will continue to carry concealed and keep my capabilities less known.

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Your statement “will be the first target” makes it clear to those of us that do carry you don’t understand. However, we will protect you if the need ever arises. You must remind yourself you live in one of the safest states in the country because of what you dislike and are uncomfortable with.


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Old 07-12-2021, 03:52 PM   #53
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I'm sorry, this is nuts. Oh yes, I feel so safe doing my grocery shopping while a bunch of macho men walk around with their guns exposed. This country is psycho when it comes to guns.. Just saying.... not that it does any good.
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:51 AM   #54
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I saw that in Gilford Walmart a couple years ago. We got to the check-out line and there was a husband/wife in front of us...maybe 50-ish...and they both had pistols in holsters at their waist. Although I don't own a gun, I am not anti-gun, and have shot pistols and rifles numerous times, but it did freak me out a bit to see that out in the open on a Sunday morning in Walmart
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Old 07-12-2021, 12:50 PM   #55
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Ok, so I really like the new Market Basket supermarket in Plymouth NH and typically go shopping there about two or three times per week. It has no self-service check-outs and has a good number of check-out registers staffed by Market Basket cashiers who are fast and friendly to get you checked out.

Lately, I have noticed there can be other shoppers inside the store, shopping with a grocery cart or a hand cart who also have an open carry, black semi-auto hand gun in plain site for everyone to see. I know you never see this at the nearby Walmart and I was surprised the first time I saw this and have now seen three different men doing their Market Basket shopping with a large gun holstered on their belt.

One time the man, about age-55, and wearing dark green army pants, dark green army sweatshirt with some unknown insignia on the front, and a black semi tucked into his belt was just five feet away from the Market Basket cashier, who saw him with the gun and seemed like she saw it and was somewhat concerned as she registered out my food items at the check-out.

There's got to be gun owners who keep their guns concealed away somewhere and do not go shopping at Market Basket while showing everyone they have a gun. Like, there is a big difference between concealed carry, and open carry in a NH Market Basket with numerous customers throughout the store.

One open carry guy was wearing a bright yellow tee-shirt and had a black semi-auto in a holster.

Another open carry guy was dressed like a cowboy actor from the movie Showboat, with theatrical style clothing, a white cowboy hat, and a black semi-auto in a holster.

Another open carry guy was dressed in quasi-military dark green pants and sweatshirt with a black sem-auto stuck under his belt with the handle showing.

So, why do these people, always men, choose to go to Market Basket-Plymouth and walk around the store aisles with a hand gun showing? Is it to show the other people inside the store that they have a gun? Is it because it is legal to do, they they apparently like to do it?

I know that other shoppers tend to leave the immediate area, and create space, distance, between themselves and the open carry person. It clears out a shopping aisle pretty quick, other shoppers make a fast exit when they become aware, and people just stay away from the open carry person.

In Plymouth NH, open handgun carry is not allowed at the Post Office, the Court House, Speare Hospital, Mid-State Health, Pemi Baker Community Health, CVS-Pharmacy, Rite Aid, and Walmart.

It is allowed at Market Basket, Plymouth NH which seems like a totally wackadoozie impossible situation for this Market Basket when they consider how their other shoppers inside the store tend to quickly create distance between themselves and the open carry person. Thanks, but no-thanks, I am staying away and keeping my distance from this guy, inside the store, you know what I mean!
You never know when you're going to have to shoot the guy taking the last bag of toilet paper.
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Old 07-12-2021, 02:23 PM   #56
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This is a great country and NH is a great state. No chance of a hold up or mugging when these guys are around.
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Old 07-12-2021, 03:15 PM   #57
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Thumbs up agree to disagree

I absolutely agree w/ the 1st part of ur statement. NH is a great state and this is a great country. The 2nd part I have to disagree w/u. While I have no
issues w/ gun licenses and RTC, my problem is that sometimes showing a gun brings on issues of its own. I don't feel more safe and secure because some
body has a weapon showing. In this day and age it's not a guarantee that
the armed person is one of the good guys. It's a known fact that some people "snap" if they see someone wearing a mask,washing their hands,etc.
I agree w/ a previous post that maybe they're making up for something else,
but they still can antagonize people. How are they ensuring my safety by
openly carrying a gun? Are they going to shoot someone if there is a scrap?
I respectfully submit this .
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Old 07-12-2021, 03:30 PM   #58
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Must remember until just a few years back open carry was the only way here in NH. To conceal ones firearm required a permit. Old habits are difficult to brake. Ones comment on “compensating for something”. I ask you to grow up.


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Old 07-13-2021, 01:22 PM   #59
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Must remember until just a few years back open carry was the only way here in NH. To conceal ones firearm required a permit. Old habits are difficult to brake. Ones comment on “compensating for something”. I ask you to grow up.


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My humor is sophomoric, but my point is quite serious. There are plenty of good reasons for owning and using guns, but only a child would really believe that walking around with a gun in a New Hampshire supermarket somehow makes him or others safer. It's got to be something else
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Old 07-12-2021, 03:54 PM   #60
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Can anyone speak to shooter accuracy? I remember when politicians began suggesting that teachers should be packing my first thought was how scared I'd be of my colleagues' accuracy! Also, I recall studies showing 30% effectiveness in "tumultuous" circumstances.

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Old 07-12-2021, 04:42 PM   #61
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Can anyone speak to shooter accuracy? I remember when politicians began suggesting that teachers should be packing my first thought was how scared I'd be of my colleagues' accuracy! Also, I recall studies showing 30% effectiveness in "tumultuous" circumstances.

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Training and practice is key. Just handing someone a gun and expecting them to be proficient, especially under duress, is a recipe for disaster. Proper training and understanding the laws is of the utmost importance.

I recently took a class at White Birch Armory called "The rules for armed defense". It highlights NH gun laws, concealed/open carry, situational awareness and the what if's to consider. Great course, the instructor is a friend and highly qualified instructor, police officer, SWAT team leader and retired military special agent. It is a non-shooting class, informational seminar only. I would highly recommend it.

One point it hinged on was even though something may be legal (open carry for instance), but is it wise to do so? Should you?
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Old 07-12-2021, 05:00 PM   #62
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I’ll second everything Vita has said. Open carry…no. Your inviting trouble and yes if BG is there your first to go. I see guys open carrying I turn and go the other way.
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Old 07-12-2021, 05:26 PM   #63
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Default Youthful experience

I grew up shooing at summer camp, (YMCA and BSA). My cousins in the Adirondacks all had their own guns as teens. Schools had Jr ROTC, etc. More experience in the military. I am not afraid of guns, but I have a great respect. Las a guest a couple of"Legislative Shooting Days" and participated in a variety of chances to trey everything from Cowboy shoot out contest (no, the targets don't shoot back) to an antique elephant gun and fully automatic machine guns.
Great family recreation.
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Old 07-12-2021, 05:54 PM   #64
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Yeah you know, guns, knives, utility knives, leathermen tools, ac repair guys with tool belts on, those grocery workers flashing those box cutters. Man oh man, it's a dangerous place the Market Basket......


People carrying guns do not concern me, mass shooters never target places where there are people who can shoot back.
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Old 07-12-2021, 06:04 PM   #65
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I grew up shooing at summer camp, (YMCA and BSA). My cousins in the Adirondacks all had their own guns as teens. Schools had Jr ROTC, etc. More experience in the military. I am not afraid of guns, but I have a great respect. Las a guest a couple of"Legislative Shooting Days" and participated in a variety of chances to trey everything from Cowboy shoot out contest (no, the targets don't shoot back) to an antique elephant gun and fully automatic machine guns.
Great family recreation.
Me too- Camp Squanto! First thing I learned was safety. My high school had a team (yes we could bring firearms to school in 1978 under certain conditions). My buddy does horse mouneted shooting competitions, so cool!

Love shooting, but ammo$$ yikes.
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Old 07-12-2021, 06:46 PM   #66
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Can you carry a gun on a military base? ....... no!

https://www.military.com/pcs/can-you...tary-base.html

Can you carry a gun while shopping at the Market Basket in Plymouth, NH? ....... yes!

So, both the military base and the Market Basket are responsible members of the local community, yet they have a very different rule for carrying a gun.

Military Base in the U.S.A says NO to guns.

Market Basket in New Hampshire says YES to guns.

You notice how both military base and Market Basket have the same initials of "M B" so why the different policy for hand guns?
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Old 07-12-2021, 07:31 PM   #67
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You do realize Market Basket isn't making the rules here? The state and local governments makes the rules.
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Old 07-12-2021, 08:20 PM   #68
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I never would give that any thought in the Live Free or Die state. In fact, it would make me feel more secure.

That said, I think concealed carry is a better way to go. But it’s a personal choice.
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Old 07-12-2021, 08:49 PM   #69
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You do realize Market Basket isn't making the rules here? The state and local governments makes the rules.
Market Basket isn't making the rules here in the sense that, at least at their Plymouth store, they are choosing not to prohibit open carry. But they legally could.
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Old 07-12-2021, 09:58 PM   #70
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Market Basket isn't making the rules here in the sense that, at least at their Plymouth store, they are choosing not to prohibit open carry. But they legally could.
This came up at a place I volunteer at, that has the public in multiple times a week. Though you can have a policy to prohibit open carry, lawyers are recommending against that. The reason as explained to us was that by actively prohibiting you open yourself up to liability in a few different areas.
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:20 PM   #71
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Liability isn't a concern... if it were, the insurance company would let us know.

It is balancing out the various factors to profitability.

Do I gain more customer/sales than I lose?
Does it cost me more to find employees willing to work in that environment?

These are the things we look at for restrictions and bans that are not government mandates.
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Old 07-13-2021, 05:56 AM   #72
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As a member of the U.S. Military stationed at a military base within the 50 U.S. states, a sailor, soldier, Marine, or Air Force cannot keep a gun concealed or open carry on the military base. Only the military police can have a gun.

Compare that to Market Basket, Plymouth NH where anyone can go food shopping and have a gun, open carry.

Seriously?

https://www.military.com/pcs/can-you...tary-base.html

So, what am I missing here with this comparison to how the military treats personal use of a gun verses how the State of New Hampshire treats personal use of a gun. The military has much much more strict rules on personal weapons.

If an enlisted sailor walked around inside the Navy PX shopping store located inside the Portsmouth Navy Ship Yard and wore a handgun in a holster, he would most likely get stopped very fast by the Navy military police that patrol the military base. If the same sailor walked around the Market Basket wearing the same holstered gun, it is okay?
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Old 07-13-2021, 06:12 AM   #73
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I've been lets say participating in the Santa Clause events for the past 6 years at our local grocery store. 2 years ago a man came in with his son or daughter cant remember? however he was also carrying a pistol on his hip. really? sorry not the place. either way if your gun advocate or not it makes people uncomfortable espicialy in that atomoshere. no place for guns when talking to Santa sorry.
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Old 07-13-2021, 06:22 AM   #74
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I've been lets say participating in the Santa Clause events for the past 6 years at our local grocery store. 2 years ago a man came in with his son or daughter cant remember? however he was also carrying a pistol on his hip. really? sorry not the place. either way if your gun advocate or not it makes people uncomfortable espicialy in that atomoshere. no place for guns when talking to Santa sorry.
But doesn't Santa Claus deliver to children, the Daisy Red Rider bb guns?

Just kidding, it goes back to the old saying, just because you can, doesn't mean you should!!
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Old 07-13-2021, 06:41 AM   #75
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But doesn't Santa Claus deliver to children, the Daisy Red Rider bb guns?

Just kidding, it goes back to the old saying, just because you can, doesn't mean you should!!
I'd like to add to that...just because you should, doesn't mean it's smart. I
understand that NH has a very active hunting discipline, and that's fine. All
I'm saying is that I don't see the need to walk around flaunting a weapon.
I've vacationed in NH for 58 yrs. and have never seen anyone carrying. I'm
thinking maybe it's a political statement, which is fine, but the gist of the
issue is why are you walking around armed? Did you 10 yrs ago? 5 yrs ago?
I think it's not so much protection of life and property anymore. I believe it's
become more of a status symbol. As before, respectfully submitted.
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Old 07-13-2021, 07:21 AM   #76
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I'd like to add to that...just because you should, doesn't mean it's smart. I
understand that NH has a very active hunting discipline, and that's fine. All
I'm saying is that I don't see the need to walk around flaunting a weapon.
I've vacationed in NH for 58 yrs. and have never seen anyone carrying. I'm
thinking maybe it's a political statement, which is fine, but the gist of the
issue is why are you walking around armed? Did you 10 yrs ago? 5 yrs ago?
I think it's not so much protection of life and property anymore. I believe it's
become more of a status symbol. As before, respectfully submitted.
Just to be clear, I didn't say you should.

I said just because you can, DOESN'T mean you should.
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Old 07-13-2021, 08:00 AM   #77
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Thumbs up

Sorry Bruno... I misspoke. Ur right...just because u can doesn't mean u should.
What I meant to say is that if u think that u should it doesn't mean that it's the smart thing to do.
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Old 07-13-2021, 06:17 AM   #78
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As a member of the U.S. Military stationed at a military base within the 50 U.S. states, a sailor, soldier, Marine, or Air Force cannot keep a gun concealed or open carry on the military base. Only the military police can have a gun.

Compare that to Market Basket, Plymouth NH where anyone can go food shopping and have a gun, open carry.

Seriously?

https://www.military.com/pcs/can-you...tary-base.html

So, what am I missing here with this comparison to how the military treats personal use of a gun verses how the State of New Hampshire treats personal use of a gun. The military has much much more strict rules on personal weapons.

If an enlisted sailor walked around inside the Navy PX shopping store located inside the Portsmouth Navy Ship Yard and wore a handgun in a holster, he would most likely get stopped very fast by the Navy military police that patrol the military base. If the same sailor walked around the Market Basket wearing the same holstered gun, it is okay?
Everything you stated above is true.

However, the Supreme Court has always ruled in favor of the government with matters of constitutional rights that allows the military to restrict the rights of military personnel in ways that is not permitted in the civilian world.
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Old 07-13-2021, 09:31 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
As a member of the U.S. Military stationed at a military base within the 50 U.S. states, a sailor, soldier, Marine, or Air Force cannot keep a gun concealed or open carry on the military base. Only the military police can have a gun.

Compare that to Market Basket, Plymouth NH where anyone can go food shopping and have a gun, open carry.

Seriously?

https://www.military.com/pcs/can-you...tary-base.html

So, what am I missing here with this comparison to how the military treats personal use of a gun verses how the State of New Hampshire treats personal use of a gun. The military has much much more strict rules on personal weapons.

If an enlisted sailor walked around inside the Navy PX shopping store located inside the Portsmouth Navy Ship Yard and wore a handgun in a holster, he would most likely get stopped very fast by the Navy military police that patrol the military base. If the same sailor walked around the Market Basket wearing the same holstered gun, it is okay?
Market Basket being private property can make the restrictions. Once posted any customer found carrying would be asked to leave. Failure to leave after being asked to do so is trespass.
But it creates an extra headache for a business that may only occasionally have to deal with it.
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Old 07-13-2021, 08:06 AM   #80
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Liability isn't a concern... if it were, the insurance company would let us know.

It is balancing out the various factors to profitability.

Do I gain more customer/sales than I lose?
Does it cost me more to find employees willing to work in that environment?

These are the things we look at for restrictions and bans that are not government mandates.
The insurance company sparked the discussion about open carry restrictions. They said if we restrict it, they need to see our policy in writing which might affect our liability policy, which sent us to the lawyer to draft it, who advised against it.
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Old 07-13-2021, 09:42 AM   #81
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The insurance company sparked the discussion about open carry restrictions. They said if we restrict it, they need to see our policy in writing which might affect our liability policy, which sent us to the lawyer to draft it, who advised against it.
Went through that also, scan of the lawyer determined they were an advocate. He was released as he was being paid for his legal advise and not his personal opinion. Current legal advise is either way you could encounter a lawsuit. Current policy is no employee may carry a firearm, in person or in their vehicle, on company property unless specifically authorized or face immediate release from employment.

We haven't had any employees at my location bring up concerns on the issue surrounding customers.
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Old 07-13-2021, 12:05 PM   #82
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Went through that also, scan of the lawyer determined they were an advocate. He was released as he was being paid for his legal advise and not his personal opinion. Current legal advise is either way you could encounter a lawsuit.
OK so you had a lawyer who advised you (I assume) not to enact a policy as you might face a lawsuit. Why is that not sound advise as you admit that either way you could face a lawsuit based on your "current" understanding? You may not like his personal beliefs but his guidance as your legal council has merit and was not just a personal opinion.
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Old 07-13-2021, 01:48 PM   #83
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OK so you had a lawyer who advised you (I assume) not to enact a policy as you might face a lawsuit. Why is that not sound advise as you admit that either way you could face a lawsuit based on your "current" understanding? You may not like his personal beliefs but his guidance as your legal council has merit and was not just a personal opinion.
The other legal council advised that litigation could occur either way... and thus did not take a stance on whether to enact a policy or not.
We pay for legal opinions, not personal opinions.

If you are uncomfortable with the people that advise you, you seek other advise.
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Old 07-12-2021, 09:25 PM   #84
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Can you carry a gun on a military base? ....... no!

https://www.military.com/pcs/can-you...tary-base.html

Can you carry a gun while shopping at the Market Basket in Plymouth, NH? ....... yes!

So, both the military base and the Market Basket are responsible members of the local community, yet they have a very different rule for carrying a gun.

Military Base in the U.S.A says NO to guns.

Market Basket in New Hampshire says YES to guns.

You notice how both military base and Market Basket have the same initials of "M B" so why the different policy for hand guns?
Can you as a civilian, walk onto a military base?..... No, not with out good reason.

Can you as a civilian walk into a Market Basket?.....Yes even if you are an evil person.

There is a difference, though there have been shootings on military bases. I for one, think military people should be able to wear firearms on base, but that's just me.

Here in NH as other places, you have no idea the number of people you come into contact with every day that are carrying concealed. Why, because there are crazies out there and they can be found anywhere. And don't forget, cops are only mins away when seconds count. Sorry, I had to use that line, but is true.

I carry and I carry concealed. Why, there are many reasons but here are two. The first is because of people that freak out when they see a gun. The second, I don't want to stand out should something ever happen, which I hope never does. So far I am doing quite well, 45 years of carrying without any issues.

As for accuracy, I find that you'd probably have better chance of good accuracy from most civilians than from a Police officer. There are some really good shooters among Police officers as I shoot with quite a few. However, that is not the norm for most Police officers. They qualify once or twice a year and that's their only shooting they do in a years time. Shooting is a skill that requires continual work. You just don't learn to shoot at 15 and you're good to go for life.

I will admit, when I see someone walking around open carrying, I take a second look,. Usually to see what they are carrying. I am a SIG snob! But I also keep that in the back of my mind. Though I suspect if a bad person saw two, three of four good persons walking around open carrying, they would probably decide to take their evil somewhere else.
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Old 07-12-2021, 10:14 PM   #85
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Sorry, I flunked attachments. Tried unsuccessfully to post a photo I took a couple of years ago on the ship: Two signs next to each other with red lines through a cigarette and a gun to signify No Smoking and No Guns allowed aboard.
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Old 07-13-2021, 12:35 PM   #86
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It seems that on this thread a person with open carry is equated as a good guy. Really? How do you know? Could be a bad guy thinking I'll open carry and they'll think I'm a good guy." Think I'll sling my biathlon rifle on and go shopping.
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Old 07-13-2021, 12:52 PM   #87
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It seems that on this thread a person with open carry is equated as a good guy. Really? How do you know? Could be a bad guy thinking I'll open carry and they'll think I'm a good guy." Think I'll sling my biathlon rifle on and go shopping.
Why are you assuming the individual is a bad guy or gal? Yes, you can sling your biathlon rifle on and go shopping. Throw on the medals too? Unless it’s just for show


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Old 07-13-2021, 01:01 PM   #88
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Interesting observations and opinions all, but somehow they all seem off the mark to me.

As always we are people that are quick to judge and quick to get worked up over any matter and so SLOW to really consider the other (or any other) perspective.

It would appear from several of the posts here that any notion of freedom of choice in America (you do what you want so long as it doesn’t actually impact or hurt me) seems to be rapidly eroding in the Live Free or DIe state, and this thread is a PERFECT example of it.

Of the ~350 million people in America, has anyone ever been harmed by open carry? (Which as correctly stated was your rule as far back as most can remember,,,) I have not seen a single report of open carry actually resulting in an actual safety problem, EVER. Likely more have suffered from loud speakers in boats than from any case of open carry ever reported!

I am also always surprised by highly inflammatory statements such as “this country is psycho when it comes to guns” or “the Second Amendment as being discussed here and most other places is due largely to the 2008 case District of Columbia vs. Heller. Prior to that, the interpretation was not about an individuals right to bear arms the way it gets discussed today”

“Psycho”, now that’s really going to help convince any gun owner that there might be a better option than open carry to protect themself or their family.

And any statement regarding the Second Amendment as not having been crafted as a personal and individual right to keep and bear arms (and any limitation of what kind of firearms this includes) has clearly not been following this matter, or the foundation from where is comes. The very earliest writings on this matter tell a tale of a desire to ensure protection and not even against other individuals or wildlife (that was always assumed as a personal “human” right to defend oneself) the Second Amendment was intended to allow you to defend yourself against an oppressive government. And as such it would also be assumed that citizens would have the same level/type/kind of sidearm that any military would have, otherwise there would be no purpose to it.

So for the moment I must read most of this with the expectation that it is just drama for drama sake, and all I have to do to validate my perspective is look at the OP who provides us with some of the most entertaining posts since the dialog of the original Letterman show. I thoroughly enjoy such posts as entertainment, but I could never take most of the comments as serious or having validity as this mostly reads like reactionary drama.

Well that’s one persons opinion and something I feel certain some here will treat this as just more drama, so simply sit back and enjoy as the show continues as I will be doing ;-)

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Old 07-13-2021, 01:07 PM   #89
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Of the ~350 million people in America, has anyone ever been harmed by open carry?
I mean, every mass shooting has been an open carry situation, right?

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Old 07-13-2021, 01:51 PM   #90
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I mean, every mass shooting has been an open carry situation, right?
Not the guy who "smuggle" automatic rifles and fired on the crowd from a hotel room.
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Old 07-13-2021, 01:55 PM   #91
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I mean, every mass shooting has been an open carry situation, right?

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Well, actually, no!
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Old 07-13-2021, 02:34 PM   #92
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I mean, every mass shooting has been an open carry situation, right?

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No, not at all, those were mass shootings.

They had NOTHING to do with open carry.

And that is exactly my point, do you really believe that any mass shooting was caused because someone was carrying openly, or did you just say that for the sake of adding to the drama of the thread,,,

As pure entertainment its a great soundbite, but if you actually believe that Sandy Hook or Las Vegas or any other mass shooting happened because an otherwise reasonable person was carrying openly, and then out of the blue a mass shooting just happened as a result of that person having their gun not concealed vs it being hidden under a jacket, then we can never actually resolve this debate.

Matters not to me as I would never announce I had a firearm on my person by displaying it in public. Thats just my philosophy, but the hard truth of the matter is open carry in 2021 is an extreme rarity and does not happen enough anywhere in America to warrant any discussion about it.

I 100% assure you you are far greater risk every day of being killed by a distracted driver using a cell phone or texting on it, or at greater risk of killing yourself while distracted by simply having a cell phone, than any risk from someone openly carrying a hand gun. So when we fully address that problem, I might take the concern about open carry a bit more seriously. Maybe,,,

Until then, this discussion is all just drama for dramas sake.
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Old 07-13-2021, 03:48 PM   #93
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XCR, I appreciate your posts, agree with much of them, you have a thoughtful approach that it great because it makes me think things through.

One disagreement I have is calling a healthy discussion "just drama for drama's sake". I think this, at least so far, is a pretty good discussion, good points on all sides. Ok, I think comparing a military base to a Market Basket is not a great analogy but then again it started the discussion. It's nice to be on a forum where the discussion is about constitution and amendments and private property and not a bunch of name calling.
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Old 07-13-2021, 04:45 PM   #94
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XCR, I appreciate your posts, agree with much of them, you have a thoughtful approach that it great because it makes me think things through.

One disagreement I have is calling a healthy discussion "just drama for drama's sake". I think this, at least so far, is a pretty good discussion, good points on all sides. Ok, I think comparing a military base to a Market Basket is not a great analogy but then again it started the discussion. It's nice to be on a forum where the discussion is about constitution and amendments and private property and not a bunch of name calling.
I think most discussions here are very reasonable and many very helpful, and I very much appreciate the viewpoints shared here. Well most of the time, but this one started off on a bit of an odd note and it is one of the most polarizing matters Americans are facing. So I intentionally kept away until I saw how all over the place this conversation went. In my opinion calling America (and assuming that means us) psychos for our desire to own (and possibly bear firearms) is drama. In my opinion calling mass shootings a result of open carry is drama. And so on,,,

Too much said about firearms issues is emotional not fact based, and thats what makes it drama for dramas sake.

If the conversation addressed concerns of mishandling open carry weapons, or holsters that did not secure the guns, or any number of legitimate concerns then it would be quite different and I would likely have considered it an in interesting and legitimate discussion. But it is clear that some feel that that simply showing a gun in public constituted a danger to others, and for me thats just drama.

I could speculate and raise the drama level, by saying maybe these folks were off duty law enforcement of some other profession that allows constant carry. I could speculate that these folks had suffered violent crime and simply wanted to send a message that they would not be victims again. I could do a lot of things to ramp up the drama, but I feel like this is a very important matter and one that should be taken more seriously than calling us psychos or blaming open carry for mass shootings.

The fact is it went as these kinds of polarizing issues usually go, too many go to there opposite corner and little meaningful discussion or debate actually happens. Sure there were some productive comments, but mostly drama from catbird seat.

Well thats what I saw, if you disagree, I cant fault you, its just a different observation and I respect your right to see it as you do. No heart burn here.

If you can do anything to elevate the conversation I will applaud you, and maybe you already have in your attempt to reach out to me. So for that I tip my hat to you. If you bump into me on the lake, tell me I promised to buy you a round and we can debate my "need" to buy some expensive and shiny props for the boat, or maybe my desire buy,,, well any of the crazy things on my list ;-) Thanks
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Old 07-13-2021, 01:50 PM   #95
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Interesting observations and opinions all, but somehow they all seem off the mark to me.

As always we are people that are quick to judge and quick to get worked up over any matter and so SLOW to really consider the other (or any other) perspective.

It would appear from several of the posts here that any notion of freedom of choice in America (you do what you want so long as it doesn’t actually impact or hurt me) seems to be rapidly eroding in the Live Free or DIe state, and this thread is a PERFECT example of it.

Of the ~350 million people in America, has anyone ever been harmed by open carry? (Which as correctly stated was your rule as far back as most can remember,,,) I have not seen a single report of open carry actually resulting in an actual safety problem, EVER. Likely more have suffered from loud speakers in boats than from any case of open carry ever reported!

I am also always surprised by highly inflammatory statements such as “this country is psycho when it comes to guns” or “the Second Amendment as being discussed here and most other places is due largely to the 2008 case District of Columbia vs. Heller. Prior to that, the interpretation was not about an individuals right to bear arms the way it gets discussed today”
“Psycho”, now that’s really going to help convince any gun owner that there might be a better option than open carry to protect themself or their family.
And any statement regarding the Second Amendment as not having been crafted as a personal and individual right to keep and bear arms (and any limitation of what kind of firearms this includes) has clearly not been following this matter, or the foundation from where is comes. The very earliest writings on this matter tell a tale of a desire to ensure protection and not even against other individuals or wildlife (that was always assumed as a personal “human” right to defend oneself) the Second Amendment was intended to allow you to defend yourself against an oppressive government. And as such it would also be assumed that citizens would have the same level/type/kind of sidearm that any military would have, otherwise there would be no purpose to it.

So for the moment I must read most of this with the expectation that it is just drama for drama sake, and all I have to do to validate my perspective is look at the OP who provides us with some of the most entertaining posts since the dialog of the original Letterman show. I thoroughly enjoy such posts as entertainment, but I could never take most of the comments as serious or having validity as this mostly reads like reactionary drama.

Well that’s one persons opinion and something I feel certain some here will treat this as just more drama, so simply sit back and enjoy as the show continues as I will be doing ;-)
So you don't believe in private property? Or don't believe that a property owner exerts right over that property?
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Old 07-13-2021, 03:44 PM   #96
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So you don't believe in private property? Or don't believe that a property owner exerts right over that property?
No idea where you get that idea from.

Clearly you have me confused with some other poster.

I believe America is a better place because we have a 1st and 2nd amendment and I fully believe in people having god given rights to defend themselves and their families and their property.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your comments???
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Old 07-13-2021, 04:04 PM   #97
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The restriction on carry would be the invoking of a property right.
There is no ''freedom of choice'' when your ''choice'' is an attempt to override someone else's right.

Other than an owner's personally feeling on the issue, for business, that is mostly the relay of several inputs to revenue and expenses.

For instance, I gave motorcycling, snowmobiling, my PWC, my ATV (even my officer position in the state association), plus many other things... because I wanted to be the choice of old money customers that do not find those things acceptable.

If I learned to sail or ski, or improved my golf game, I could even gain credibility. Luckily, I can handle more of the systems than the other salespeople, and have more of an architectural background... so I get asked for.

So I have had to deal with my ''choices'' both being acceptable to other people and their property rights, along with business interests that are a lot broader than many may understand.
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Old 07-13-2021, 04:54 PM   #98
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The restriction on carry would be the invoking of a property right.
There is no ''freedom of choice'' when your ''choice'' is an attempt to override someone else's right.

Other than an owner's personally feeling on the issue, for business, that is mostly the relay of several inputs to revenue and expenses.

For instance, I gave motorcycling, snowmobiling, my PWC, my ATV (even my officer position in the state association), plus many other things... because I wanted to be the choice of old money customers that do not find those things acceptable.

If I learned to sail or ski, or improved my golf game, I could even gain credibility. Luckily, I can handle more of the systems than the other salespeople, and have more of an architectural background... so I get asked for.

So I have had to deal with my ''choices'' both being acceptable to other people and their property rights, along with business interests that are a lot broader than many may understand.
I'm not following, but thats ok, I may be more block-headed than most ;-)

If I can attempt to trace that back to the original post are you attempting to draw some line from my comments to some right of Market Basket to allow or prohibit open carry??? As I made no comment about that it doesn't click with me, but then as I said I'm not following so maybe I'm way off track,,,
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Old 07-13-2021, 07:45 PM   #99
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I'm not following, but thats ok, I may be more block-headed than most ;-)

If I can attempt to trace that back to the original post are you attempting to draw some line from my comments to some right of Market Basket to allow or prohibit open carry??? As I made no comment about that it doesn't click with me, but then as I said I'm not following so maybe I'm way off track,,,
''It would appear from several of the posts here that any notion of freedom of choice in America (you do what you want so long as it doesn’t actually impact or hurt me) seems to be rapidly eroding in the Live Free or DIe state, and this thread is a PERFECT example of it. ''

You suggest that Freedom of Choice override others' rights... it never does.
It does not matter if something doesn't ''hurt me''. Property owners act in their own self-interest.

That self-interest has much more effect on our policies than government mandates.

So should a restriction occur, it would be due to public (i.e. customer reaction ) to what is happening.

People tend to push an advocacy position to the point that the negative occurs.

I am sure that in the past people have cooked on Weirs Beach and listened to music... but they went so far as to agitate the backlash.
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Old 07-13-2021, 08:39 PM   #100
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I'm not a gun person myself, could care less about guns. But I have a dozen or so friends that are gun fanatics and at least 2 or 3 of them shouldn't be carrying. They are loose cannons and when I'm with them I try to keep my guard up.
One took his own life, about 2 months ago, not with his gun but he's dead non the less. So I really question the stability of all many of these legal gun owners.
IMO, anyone with a gun can be provoked to use it under duress, whether it's warranted or not.
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