Windmills along the lake

[Massasauga]

A neighbor of mine wants to build a residential 51' windmill on a 1.75 acre lakefront lot near Belknap Point. It would surely be visible from a number of locations including from the lake.

I am interested in peoples opinions, for example:

1 - Windmills along the shores of Lake Winnipesaukee will diminish the natural beauty inherent to the landscape and will negatively impact property values of those who are forced to view them

2 - Windmills are good for the environment and therefore we should accept how they look and expect to see more of them if/when the cost/benefit improves

3 - Residential windmills in NH is are not typically cost effective or logical (50-100 year payback). Effective wind-power is more appropriately achieved with a carefully selected rural location via a well designed wind-farm (with multiple windmills clustered together).

4 - Other?

[dpg]

Are you stating opinion or fact? For instance #3

[Massasauga]

All are opinions... I am mostly interested in peoples thoughts on the impact on the lake, the scenery and property values.

Although I am not an expert I have done a little reading which suggests that these residential windmills don't generate much power even in a good location (typically 20% of an average home monthly electrical usage) and given most NH locations do not provide consistent winds, a residential windmill costing $20k to install would take 50+ years to pay for itself.

[Lakegeezer]

The beauty of windmills is, unfortunately, in the eye of the beholder. I like looking at them, because they represent decreased dependency on oil and I guess I must like watching whirly things. However, I'm not sure I'd like my neighbor to have one if I could hear the constant noise. The article in today's (9/29) LDS projects the out-of-pocket expense will be under $15K (after rebates) and it will bring in $100-$150/month. Projections rarely work out like planned, but the most optimistic calculation says it will break-even in under 8 years. My guess would be double that. The case in Belknap seems well planned, but it needs variances from the town. Good luck! I hope the project is approved.

[jmen24]

You may want to mention to your neighbor to verify that nobody behind him/her has a View Easement. Putting it up is expensive, but putting it up and being sued and having to take it down is even more so.

Other than that I think windmills are cool, but the returns do not justify the means in this area. The winds just do not have enough fetch. Anyone that has driven out west through the windfarms will agree that there is not much blocking the wind from reaching them.

The following is only slightly off topic, but is worth mentioning.

Electricity is really not the most expensive thing to replace in New England home when it comes to using nature to offset those costs.

One of the gentlemen that works in my company, designed and installed himself (he has the background and knowledge) a solar hot water heating system, using 6 hydronic panels and 600 gallons of storage he can heat his home all winter (3800SF) with the boiler only picking up 5-10% of the load on the coldest darkest days and that includes all domestic hot water. After winter he turns a valve and continues to make hot water all year long. I will not get into exactly how the system works as there is alot of information about it, but he invested about $28K and has not had to refill his 500 gallon propane tank yet (2+ years). This system is very cool to see how it works, it also adjusts the temperature of the water in the heat loops based on the outdoor air temp, so it only makes the water as hot as it needs to. Disclaimer is that this system would only work with Radiant heat as you do not want all that work to heat and store the water just to let it go to waste heating air.

[Sman]

I'm not sure I'd like my neighbor to have one if I could hear the constant noise.

Don't know enough about them, but the noise point is a good one if it exists, if it sounds like my neighbor has a generator going 24/7 that would be a no vote for me, maybe they are quite?? Would need to know more on that.

As far as the view, my initial reaction is if they started going up everywhere on the water front it would look a bit ugly. Not sure how close to the shoreline you can built a fixed structure.

[Slickcraft]

My opinion: Wind turbines are both good for the environment and interesting to look at. We have a direct view of Belknap Point from Welch Island and would be happy to have a wind turbine improve the view (relative to the motel, condos, Gunstock acres and such).

Last year we visited the large wind farm on Tug Hill in upper NY state. Watching the 195 large turbines slowly turn in synchronism and realizing that a light breeze was pumping power into the grid was satisfying. In no way way was the view objectionable. We were able to walk to about 300' from one of the 260' tall machines with a 270' rotor diameter. You could hear only a faint whish as each blade passed by.

I can't see how the small unit proposed here could be an issue for anyone.

As for being cost effective and payback time, that is for the property owner to decide.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Massasauga

A neighbor of mine wants to build a residential 51' windmill on a 1.75 acre lakefront lot near Belknap Point. It would surely be visible from a number of locations including from the lake.

I am interested in peoples opinions

Kudos to your neighbor for being energy conscious. I too have a direct view of Belknap Point and would more than welcome the sight! Everyone has put up with telephone and light poles for all these years, a wind turbine would certainly be a welcomed addition!

This is the way we should all be thinking! Renewable resource energy is our future and should be welcomed by all.

FWIW;

Dan

[Just Sold]

Instead of the traditional Wind Mill for electrical power why not try one of these. http://www.mariahpower.com/ They used them on ABC's Extreme Makeover Home Edition last season.

[Argie's Wife]

The school board of Prospect Mountain High School (Alton, NH) have been exploring alternative energy sources. There was a presentation on July 21, 2009 about windmills (wind turbines) that you might find of interest: HERE

[Woodsy]

I love windmills... in fact anything that can reduce our energy footprint when it comes to foreign oil... not saying they are the prettiest things to see in and around the lake. But they might be a necesary evil.

We need a multi-tiered approach to energy usage...

1. Solar panels should be mandatory on all new construction. Solar panels coupled with small windmills on single family dwellings will save vast amounts of energy. Its not new tech, but it will work and on a big scale it will not be cost prohibitive.

2. Geothermal heating.... works everywhere else. Why not here?

3. Nuclear power.... the big hot button! Time to revisit nuclear power with a fresh set of eyes and new technology. The only thing we have to do is standardize the powerplants to reduce startup costs....

4. Hybrid vehicles... the technology is there!

Woodsy

[Lakesrider]

And make sure you contact the town to see if it is allowed. I know I saw an article on TV about some Maine folks complaining about the really big ones bothering their eyes with the "Flicker issue". the windmills create a rapid shadow and messes with peoples minds.... But abutters are really the biggest problem. like mentioned, it would have to be approved by any neighbors and addressed in a town meeting I'll bet. Here is an article from last year.

http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2008/...s-regulations/

[Kracken]

A modern windmill that produces electricity is a turbine. Turbine as in jet engine turbine. They are loud and produce a deep bass thumping sound that has had reported adverse effects on people and wildlife.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, while some might find a wind turbine a great addition to the lake, others might disagree vehemently.

Keep in mind this is my opinion and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Kracken

A modern windmill that produces electricity is a turbine. Turbine as in jet engine turbine. They are loud and produce a deep bass thumping sound that has had reported adverse effects on people and wildlife.

You are absolutely wrong about the noise. I stood near the base of one of the largest wind turbines made when in full operation. No sound from the generator equipment and only a faint whish as each blade passed by. I had to listen carefully to hear it.

Turbine means only a rotor or vanes driven by movement of a fluid or air. The comparison to a jet engine noise is as far off base as anyone could ever get.

[Dr. Green]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

You are absolutely wrong about the noise. I stood near the base of one of the largest wind turbines made when in full operation. No sound from the generator equipment and only a faint whish as each blade passed by. I had to listen carefully to hear it.

Paradoxically, small turbine wind generators are significantly noisier than the large ones. You would NOT want to have a small turbine (propeller) one attached to your house, and nearby neighbors might not like it either, depending on how nearby they are. Residential propeller generators are best when they can be 50-100 feet away from the structure they are supplying power to.

This is not a problem with the rotating (spinning) ones pictured in Reply #9

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

You are absolutely wrong about the noise. I stood near the base of one of the largest wind turbines made when in full operation. No sound from the generator equipment and only a faint whish as each blade passed by. I had to listen carefully to hear it.

Turbine means only a rotor or vanes driven by movement of a fluid or air. The comparison to a jet engine noise is as far off base as anyone could ever get.

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

The noise is not necessarily generated near the rotors or tower. It is the turbine that is loud and they can be located several hundred meters away from the tower. A turbine is necessary to generate electricity.

While the health risks are debatable…physics are not.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Kracken

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

The noise is not necessarily generated near the rotors or tower. It is the turbine that is loud and they can be located several hundred meters away from the tower. A turbine is necessary to generate electricity.

While the health risks are debatable…physics are not.

Kracken...

I dont know how familiar you are with the principles of generating electricity, but it basically requires magnets (attached to an axle) spinning inside a coil of wire... (the principle of induction) The bigger the magnets & coil winding the more electricity you can generate... but like any mechanical device, the more mechanical energy (electricity) you want to produce the more kinetic energy (wind, steam, water) you need to convert to mechanical energy to spin the magnets. Anyway.. I digress.

A wind tubine (windmill) is no different from any other turbine.. (water, steam etc.) The axle shaft is always directly attached to the spinning blades converting the kinetic energy to mechanical energy. In the case of a wind turbine the spinning axle is directly connected to the blades. This puts the turbine on top of the support post directly behind the blades... not anywhere on the ground.

Woodsy

[Gatto Nero]

I wouldn't want one in my direct view or have to listen to it all the time but I'm pretty sure I could power the whole damn island with one with the wind I get.

[brk-lnt]

My aunt/uncle have a place on the shore of Saginaw Bay (basically Lake Huron) with an older windmill (it came with the house 20 years ago, and wasn't new then). That mill can power the entire house and send enough electricity back up the line to net them $50 or so each month.

It's been several years since I've been there, but when it was running it really wasn't very loud at all. I would imagine that newer units would be even quieter and most likely more efficient as well.

The windmill may never pay for itself, but few "green" alternative energy sources are really economically viable anyway. When you have power during a storm, the "pay off" period will suddenly shorten dramatically

[Dr. Green]

Yes, there are a lot of opinions about windmills. More and more towns are coming up with regulations about them, so if planning to install, please check first to make sure you will not run afoul of a regulation requiring you to take it down after built.

I am a strong supporter of windmills (besides being a retailer of windmills at www.sustainabilitynh.com, based in Laconia), but in general, NH is not a good location for residential windmills (in terms of being cost-efficient). Windmills do best with wind that blows close to the ground without obstructions. Iowa (where I used to live) is a good place for wind - wind comes off the Rockies and blows close to the ground for hundreds of miles. In NH, the hills break up the flow of the wind near the ground, and the trees add lots of turbulence to the wind, making the wear on the windmill more intense.

The large (commercial scale) windmills have been implicated in some deaths of birds - it is an issue; but smaller wind generators will not provide much of a hazard (and the spinning ones even less). It turns out it is not the collision with the blades of the large windmill rotors that is the major problem - bird usually avoid the blades. It is that the large blades create a low pressure zone just following the blade, and when an animal (bird, bat) flies into it, their inner cavities and blood vessels can burst from the sudden near vacuum (according to autopsies of dead birds and bats). Small residential wind generators don't create a big enough low pressure area to injure the animals.

The same rebate available to solar electric installers is available to those who install wind power. There is a 30% rebate - off your next years taxes (not off your taxable income) from the Federal Government. There is an up to $6000 rebate from the State of NH, and if you are a grid tied NHEC customer, there is a rebate of up to $3,500

I would agree with jmen24 that solar hot water (and solar electric) are both better deals than wind power in NH. We get more usable sunlight in NH than almost anywhere in Germany, which produces the most solar electricity per capita in the world. Sure we get less than California or Arizona, but we also have the advantage of a cooler climate (esp cold winters) which means we produce more electricity per hour of sunshine with the same solar electric panels than they do. With rebates, solar is now cheaper than the utilities over about 20-25 years (and that's not including an factoring in of increasingly expensive electric rates over the coming years.

In NH there are relatively few places where wind by itself will be economically feasible - lakefront is one, where wind blows across the lake toward the windmill. Ridgetop without trees is another. Some funnel valleys are also good for windmills.

If you are thinking of installing wind power, first, measure the wind for a while. While you might have three or four months of good wind at your chosen location, it might be not very good the other eight months of the year. Another difficulty about wind is its unpredictableness. You might measure the wind at one location and decide it just isn't a good location. But because of the lay of the land and the way the land channels the wind, it is possible that a spot just 100 yards away is an excellent site for wind. The problem is that it is very hard to tell from just looking at what are good sites for an invisible commodity.

The general rule of thumb is that your wind generator should be located 30 feet above any obstruction within 200 feet. In Iowa, that means building a 37 foot high tower so it is 30 feet above the corn. Here, that might mean an 80-100 foot tower, which are A LOT more expensive than a 37 foot tower (another reason why it isn't very feasible in many locations in NH).

There is one situation where a windmill may work well in NH. If you have an off-the-grid home and are using (and entirely dependent on) solar power, the winter months are the toughest, as sunlight is on average 60% less than summer. A wind generator USUALLY does best in the winter months here, just when solar power is at its minimum. So a windmill complementing a solar installation allows you to downsize both and find a practical balance.

As to the sound windmills make, that is primarily a problem with "propeller windmills", with the turning propellers. The type of windmill pictured in Reply 9 by Just Sold produces very little sound. Additionally, these spinning turbines pick up power better from lighter winds. For residential applications in NH, I would recommend them over the propeller systems (though Sustain Ability can order and install both types). I myself am planning to build with a spinning windmill as a back-up to off-grid solar next year.

On the commercial scale (300 foot high windmills) NH is an excellent state for wind-power - on ridgetops; but for residential size, there are surprisingly few places that are economically feasible in NH. I know this is not everyone's primary consideration. Whereas Solar Power (with rebates) is cheaper than buying from the power company (over the life of the system); wind power, even with rebates, usually will not break-even compared with grid-power.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I love windmills... in fact anything that can reduce our energy footprint when it comes to foreign oil... not saying they are the prettiest things to see in and around the lake. But they might be a necesary evil.

We need a multi-tiered approach to energy usage...

1. Solar panels should be mandatory on all new construction. Solar panels coupled with small windmills on single family dwellings will save vast amounts of energy. Its not new tech, but it will work and on a big scale it will not be cost prohibitive.

2. Geothermal heating.... works everywhere else. Why not here?

3. Nuclear power.... the big hot button! Time to revisit nuclear power with a fresh set of eyes and new technology. The only thing we have to do is standardize the powerplants to reduce startup costs....

4. Hybrid vehicles... the technology is there!

Woodsy

Just curious do you own, have you invested in any of these?

[twoplustwo]

I would love to have one of those Mariah windspires, even if it meant cutting down part of the back 40 to get enough wind to make it worth bothering. They are too, too cool. Put them all around the lake, I'd love it.

Woodsy, it would be great to see more geothermal and solar use up here. The geothermal is catching on, but solar panels are far too cost prohibitive, still. If the gov't would pump some cash into the solar panel manufacturers instead of throwing it at jackhole companies like Bank Of America and AIG, I'd be thrilled. Every time I see a sign on 93 with a bank of solar panels powering it, I always want to bring those suckers home and slap them on my roof. Eventually I'd cover it

[travaler18]

once we run out of oil, its gonna be windwills and sailboats everywhere

[Just Sold]

From the articles I have read Geothermal is not always a good investment in certain areas of the country. New England is OK but the temperature down at the point where you drill to get the heat is not as warm as you would like. So you have to pay a little more in oil/gas/wood to get the water to where it will heat the home. Sure you save some but what is it costing in the pump to move the water down and back up? You will still have a hot water furnace like you would would without Geothermal.

Now in the Rocky's and where ever there is geology with thermal springs, old volcanic activity etc. that is where you get the best return on investment. Colorado is one area North and West of Denver. Washington and Oregon too.

I have not been convinced that New England is the place to invest in Geothermal. It is just OK here but the payback seem a little long. My brother looked into it in his new construction home near Blue Hill Maine. An engineering study was done for his home to select the best system and fuel to heat with and Geothermal was not even near the top of heating options.

As for wind power my brother looked into that and no system offered a reasonable payback for the investment. Something like 60 years. Not at his age then of 67. His home has a lot of open land to the NE and N and gets indirect wind off the Ocean a few miles away.

[jmen24]

Just Sold, I agree with your statement 100%.

Electric solar panels that are large enough to power your home and hopefully backfeed the grid are super expensive including all the components to go with them.

In new contruction with Radiant heat the hot water solar system explained above carries a cost savings of about $2500 per year in fuel, that nets a payoff of about 11 years, and you are no longer dependant on oil to heat your home and hot water. I forgot to mention that he also suppliments with a wood stove and in case the power goes out and the gas range is not usable, they also have a second stove in the kitchen that uses wood, you know the old school way of cooking. It is a pretty cool setup.

[NoBozo]

Lots of speculation going on here. Portsmouth, RI now has a municipally owned large wind turbine that was brought on line this spring. It's pretty big by most standards at 1.5 Mega Watts. The town "Voted" to do this project. I voted against..but have since become a supporter. The initial cost was to have been $4 million. A deal was struck and it was a done deal at $3 million.

Portsmouth has plenty of wind.... overlooking Narragansett Bay...the Sailing Capitol of the world.

I have been there when the turbine is running Full Tilt....which is most of the time ...@ 19 RPM. The only sound you hear is the Whoosh Whoosh of the blades as they pass the tower, You can stand directly under the blades if you wish during operation. The turbine is accesable to the public...not surrounded by a fence. It is a worthwhile experience. It is a magnificent "Machine" ...AND a "Sculpture" at the same time. It makes over 2000 Horse Power. NB

Click on the Wind Energy button which is prominent on the town homepage. below:

http://www.portsmouthri.com/frames.htm

[jmen24]

I have to agree about the windmills being a very cool site. While enroute to Colorado last fall for a hunting trip (we drove via 1986 Ford RV) we were traveling through Kansas somewhere between midnight and 3:00 am, anyway I was driving along when we noticed off in the distance a single red light (constantly on), as we got closer it was like a light switch and the entire horizon lit up with red lights evenly spaced as far as you could see both left and right, after two seconds or so they went out. About 20 or so minutes later we were finally close enough to realize that they were windmills along a ridge. What amazed us is that the lights on these did not stay on constantly as I would think that would not be very fun coming up on that with an aircraft. That was my first experience with seeing these windmills up close, we later so more in the daylight on the way back in Wyoming.

I attached a photo that I took while driving of blades being transported over the road while in Iowa as they had a recall on the blades due to a failure.

I was really cool to see one up close, and as you can see with the full size SUV is added for scale.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Massasauga

"...Windmills along the shores of Lake Winnipesaukee will diminish the natural beauty inherent to the landscape and will negatively impact property values of those who are forced to view them..."

Energy is an essential to our local and national economic future: maybe you weren't here when we had dozens of 12-foot satellite dishes in our lakeside view.

Originally Posted by Just Sold

"...Geothermal is not always a good investment in certain areas of the country. New England is OK..."

The drilling at North Conway has apparently escaped Google's normally-awesome reach, but my Dad remembers a 3000-foot-deep geothermal drilling at Redstone Mountain near North Conway in the 80s. Petroleum company helicopters flew mapping flights from "The White Mountain Airport", where he was employed. (As "The Red Baron" pilot).

Geothermal in New Hampshire was apparently not feasible then—but now?

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

"...I'm not sure I'd like my neighbor to have one if I could hear the constant noise..."

Sound travels best when ambient noise is least (no wind). Some noises the windmill could make would be "covered" by ambient noises—like Jet-Skis!

(Meaning, a windmill would be silent when there's no wind, and somewhat-less noticeable when wind is present).

Originally Posted by jmen24

"...You may want to mention to your neighbor to verify that nobody behind him/her has a View Easement...Other than that I think windmills are cool, but the returns do not justify the means in this area...Electricity is really not the most expensive thing to replace in New England home when it comes to using nature to offset those costs...""

1) Firewood can be considered "solar" energy, but the cost of firewood has jumped since I last bought a pile. (I also supply my own firewood from trimming and windfalls—but not enough).

2) Returns aren't justified as yet; moreover, when I asked two years ago about a windmill for my lakefront location, I was told the Town would have no objection.

3) For payback, a modest windmill would supply the grid in winter (when I'm not here), and move my meter backwards in summer, when I'm out sailing in a Windmill-class wood sailboat.

(Note the windmill emblem at the peak of the sail).



4) A view easement?

Originally Posted by ishoot308

"...This is the way we should all be thinking! Renewable resource energy is our future and should be welcomed by all..."

The industry won't just be a new boost to the economy, it's now a national-security measure!

BTW: Spain—once the "poor-man" of Europe—was once my home in 1970. At my last visit in 1990, nearly the entire Mediterrean Coast was lined with big new windmills.

[Yosemite Sam]

Belknap Point wind turbine decision delayed for want of expert testimony
By Adam Drapcho
THE LACONIA DAILY SUN

GILFORD — Hearing last night the case of the waterfront residents who wish to place a wind turbine on the non-waterfront portion of their Belknap Point Road land, the Zoning Board of Adjustment decided to continue the matter until its next scheduled meeting. However, Chairman Andrew Howe said at the conclusion of the meeting that he isn’t leaning in the applicant’s direction. Referring to two of the five criteria applicants must satisfy to achieve a variance from zoning restrictions, Howe said “I struggle with the hardship, I struggle with [whether] granting the ordinance will do substantial justice — I think they’ve got a long way to go to convince me that they’re going to meet all five of these.”
Representing her clients, Lorraine and Richard Lavalliere, Laconia attorney Regina Nadeau explained to the board that it is an accepted use to place a wind turbine on their property at 62 Belknap Point Road. However, their technical consultant advised them that they should construct a tower at least 52 feet in height to make best use of the availablewind as it sweeps from the north across Lake Winnipesaukee.
Gilford’s zoning ordinances state that wind turbines must be set back from property lines by a distance equal to or greater than 150-percent the total height of the turbine system, including tower and blades. Because of the shape of the property, the only suitable location for such a tower, adhering to the setback requirements, would be along the shorefront. Instead of placing it on the shorefront, Nadeau told the board that her clients wished to locate the tower behind their tennis court and before the stand of trees that fills the back of the lot. She said this placement, on the highest point on the lot, would produce more energy than on the shore and would be visible only by one neighbor instead of everyone who boats past Belknap Point. At that point, though, the turbine would be greater than the 110-percent setback recommended by state guidelines but less than the more restrictive setback adopted by Gilford.
When asked by board member Ellen Mulligan why the town chose a 150-percent setback, Code Enforcement Officer Dave Andrade explained “when the town started hashing out what [setback] to utilize, we didn’t have a whole lot of information.” The state required each town to enact ordinances permitting wind energy systems and limited towns to a maximum setback requirement of 150-percent. Andrade explained that the town, when writing the ordinance, was cautious about issues such as shadow flicker, sound and the dangers of ice and broken propellors flying off the systems. “There’s a lot of unknowns, so what they did was take the maximum setback for liability reasons and say we did the best we could.” There were a lot of unknowns at the meeting last night as well. Without a technical consultant present, Nadeau couldn’t answer questions from the board such as how loud the system would be from the nearest property boundary, how fast the turbine spins, how far ice or a broken propellor would fly and if the proposed site was the best location on the lot for a turbine. “I think it’s fair to say in a residential area as affluent as it is there, the public interest there is peace and quiet,” noted Howe.
The board ultimately decided to continue the matter until its meeting on Oct. 27. In the meantime, they requested that the applicants hire an independent engineer to study whether the proposed location on the lot would indeed be the best in terms of energy production. Many board members also indicated they would travel to Hill, where a similar turbine has been constructed on private property. A couple of abutters spoke during the meeting. Alexandra Breed asked “are there any maintenance issues?” She noted that the Lavallieres spend much of the year in Florida, and she worried that the year round residents would endure an eyesore if something happened to the turbine while they were away. Dick Hickok, the one abutter who Nadeau said would be able to view the turbine from his property, said he would prefer if the turbine was allowed to be built at 52 feet, because the noise would be diminished compared to a shorter rig. He also said he’d prefer if the turbine was constructed on the shoreline, so it would be further from his property.
Hickok noted that there was a risk living near such a device, especially when it flings ice or if it should let loose a propellor. “It’s a crapshoot — if the think breaks at the wrong time, its going in my house, it’s going the distance,” he said.
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/

[VtSteve]

There's a wind farm north of here on the NY state side, I'll have to see if I have a picture. Most people would view them as not particularly attractive. We have a few of them around here, and they are usually placed right in the way of a pretty mountain view.

Everyone seems to tie electric power to foreign oil. While most foreign oil this decade came from Canada and Mexico (they are foreign), most electric power generation was fueled by coal and, increasingly, by natural gas. The DOE estimates that over 90% of the electric plants built the next two decades will be natural gas fired. Virtually all distributed power generation will also be NG fueled.

Accelerating the proliferation of Energy Star devices would be a huge plus in reducing the need for more and more power plants. Switching homes in New England to other than oil for heating would also be a huge plus in reducing oil consumption. But now there's a glut of it, so maybe not

Foreign oil is a great way to stave off reliance on very expensive domestic oil, and an easier way of controlling inventories. Massive drilling when it bottomed at $30 plus per barrel would have been pretty painful for many companies.

[SAMIAM]

I read a story this month....National Geographic or Smithsonian,not sure which one,that indicated that 100's of thousands of birds were being killed by the windmills out west.Mostly golden eagles,hawks and owls.For some reason they are mostly raptors.I'm puzzled why people who profess to care about the enviroment would want a windmill anywhere near them.
As I recall,Exxon got fined millons of $$ for accidentally killing 80 migrating birds.The have stopped road and bridge projects for a nesting eagle,osprey or owl.There is a federal law that calls for huge fines for causing the death...or even harrassing or interferring with migrating birds.
Hey,I'm with ya' on solar,wave energy, ethanol,nuclear....you name it,but if you want windmills ,say goodbye to your little birdies.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

4) A view easement? snip

To answer your question, source is sited below.

Easements may be specifically described by boundaries or by its purpose. There is also a "negative easement" such as a prohibition against building a structure which blocks a view. Title reports and title abstracts will usually describe all existing easements upon a parcel of real property. The location, maintenance, and uses of the easement are defined by the agreement, use, or instrument creating the easement. In some cases, the owner of the servient property charges the easement holder a maintenance fee, however, maintenance may be subject to any type of agreement between the parties involved. Easements may be renegotiated under contract law principles. All claims involving claims on land need to be carefully drafted.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/real-estate-easements/

We have run into this issue with projects before that limit the height of projects to protect someones view.

[Dr. Green]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

...but solar panels are far too cost prohibitive, still.

Originally Posted by jmen24

Electric solar panels that are large enough to power your home and hopefully backfeed the grid are super expensive including all the components to go with them.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that solar is not cost-competitive now. Sure, over 5 years it isn't cost-competitive, but systems are guaranteed for 25 years, and should last 40 years easily. At 25 years, with Federal and State rebates (which equal up to 1/2 the price of purchase and installation), solar is cheaper than the power company (assuming you have a full solar exposure). If the cost of electricity keeps increasing at the rate it has increased the last 10 years (approximately doubling) I would expect solar to have closer to a 15 year payback than the closer to 25 it is if you assume the cost of electricity will not increase at all in the next 25 years (the rate we use for cost comparisons).

See: http://www.sustainabilitynh.com/?post_id=40

[travaler18]

to be completly green we must shed our clothes move into caves and eat only what we scavange

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by travaler18

to be completly green we must shed our clothes move into caves and eat only what we scavange

Sure will be cold on the snowmobile.

[IslandRadio]

Interesting topic! Personally, I believe solar (photovoltaic cells) would be a better solution, at least for the individual.

With wind power, you're dealing with a large, mechanical device - and machanical devices wear out and require regular maintenance and repair. If they are not properly maintained, you have a large eyesore that will be very expensive to remove.

Contrast that with photovoltaic - with no moving mechanical parts (save some relays), no noise, and very little maintenance. Of course the downside of current photovoltaic systems is energy storage - batteries.

There is a large photovoltaic installation in my town at a farm. Apparently, the system generates sufficient electricy to power everything the farmer's got going, and return a small monthly payment from Unitil. But, he has a perfect, unobstructed Southern exposure and a large barn roof to hold the panels.

I looked at a place on Diamond Island (no electricity there), and a good solar installation would have been the most practical way to provide usable and constant electric power.

With constant improvements in battery technology, and increasing conversion efficiencies, it just seems that solar might be a better solution....

Just my opinion

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by IslandRadio

Interesting topic! Personally, I believe solar (photovoltaic cells) would be a better solution, at least for the individual.

Solar is a bit tricky in this area. I've been playing with some solar equipment/systems (importing panels direct from China. At under $5/watt you can start to consider it in places you might not have thought of traditionally), our sun exposure in New England isn't that great...especially in the winter months.

To get the best yield from your panels they need to be tilted toward the sun, and if you're not installing them on a roof each row needs to be spaced back to eliminate shadows from the row in front.

The best solution in this area is probably a solar farm plus a small/mid sized windmill. Depending on your location, you can get decent wind almost continuously, especially at night when there is no sunlight. This reduces the investment you need to make in batteries to store the solar power.

[Grady223]

I would encourage all the islands to mount as many of the big windmills as would fit - bet Rattle Snake could fit 25 -30, Diamond could fit another dozen, as could Barndoor and Sleepers. With the strong NW winds and no winter usage, payback from selling power back to the grid would be short. What a benefit to the envoronment. And, what an improvement it would be to the beauty of the Lake - should really improve everyone's view!

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Grady223

I would encourage all the islands to mount as many of the big windmills as would fit - bet Rattle Snake could fit 25 -30, Diamond could fit another dozen, as could Barndoor and Sleepers. With the strong NW winds and no winter usage, payback from selling power back to the grid would be short. What a benefit to the envoronment. And, what an improvement it would be to the beauty of the Lake - should really improve everyone's view!

This would prolly require the Clear Cutting of ALL the trees on the islands which would also provide even more Renewable Energy to warm us for many winters to come. YES..? NB

[ApS]

"Bird-strikes" into skyscrapers are devastating in numbers, but the ordinary house cat kills many more songbirds than any of today's technologies. (The relatively small island of Key West has about 40,000 housecats and is a major US flyway for migrating songbirds).

Originally Posted by VtSteve

"...most electric power generation was fueled by coal ..."

New coal-fired plants are to be bankrupted.

Originally Posted by Grady223

I would encourage all the islands to mount as many of the big windmills as would fit - bet Rattle Snake could fit 25 -30, Diamond could fit another dozen, as could Barndoor and Sleepers. With the strong NW winds and no winter usage, payback from selling power back to the grid would be short. What a benefit to the envoronment. And, what an improvement it would be to the beauty of the Lake - should really improve everyone's view!

Let's take another view at Lake Winnipesaukee and "view":

Lake Winnipesaukee's first windmills should be copies of those off US coasts and be built at "The Witches".

(Improving the "view" of The Witches!)

[Rattlesnake Gal]

I just found this old postcard in McDude's gallery. It has a windmill! Can I guess for it would have been a pump for water?


Click here to see the postcard in PhotoPost, where you can super-size it.

[SAMIAM]

Hmmmmmm......I noticed that nobody replied to my post about the windmills out west killing THOUSANDS of birds. Mostly raptors. Golden Eagles, hawks and owls.......ground is littered with them around the windmills.
Somehow, I thought that folks who were interested in saving the planet might want to protect wildlife..................anyone care to comment??

[Rattlesnake Guy]

How about a farm at the witches? We could set a good example for the cape and islands.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

How about a farm at the witches? We could set a good example for the cape and islands.

Writing about "Cape Wind", which is off the shore of the Kennedy and Cronkite compounds at Nantucket, SAIL magazine writes this excerpt:

"...There have been many proposals for offshore wind farms on the U.S. coast, but none to date are operational; Cape Wind is the closest to fruition. So far, U.S. energy companies have opted for land-based wind farms, whereas offshore farms are common in Europe..."

...and...

Cape Wind is supported by the Audobon (sic) Society.

The magazine notes that the Cape Wind permitting process began eight years ago.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Hmmmmmm......I noticed that nobody replied to my post about the windmills out west killing THOUSANDS of birds. Mostly raptors. Golden Eagles, hawks and owls.......ground is littered with them around the windmills.
Somehow, I thought that folks who were interested in saving the planet might want to protect wildlife..................anyone care to comment??

...gee whiz...if they can build fish ladders so the salmon can migrate up and down river around a dam.....then they should just build some big safety cages around the whirling propellers to protect the birds. On second thought....how about bird ladders so the birdies can climb around the windmills?

[trfour]

No worries here in the Lakes Region, FLL.


Link; http://www.currykerlinger.com/birds.htm

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Hmmmmmm......I noticed that nobody replied to my post about the windmills out west killing THOUSANDS of birds. Mostly raptors. Golden Eagles, hawks and owls.......ground is littered with them around the windmills.
Somehow, I thought that folks who were interested in saving the planet might want to protect wildlife..................anyone care to comment??

Thought about it.

Decided to pass on it until you posted again.

And actually, Acres Per Second did make remarks on your post (see above). So did StephenB and I believe he said something about "poor planning" on the part of the engineers. If that's the case then the company who installed those things out west should move them.

I've lived in CA and seen the hills covered by wind turbines. They're awesome to see. I believe there's a mandate in the state that calls for a certain amount of renewable energy to be supplied. I think it's smart on their part because our dependence on foreign countries supplying our oil is hurting us.

Did you watch the video I posted? It's addressed by an engineer who designs the wind turbines, when he spoke to the Alton & Barnstead school boards at a meeting. (Alton & Barnstead share a high school and have a joint maintenance agreement - both school boards meet together to manage the high school.)

There's an excellent study here: http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html

And a good article about it here:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006...n_misconce.php

Now, take into consideration the availability of wind, the use of a "renewable" source for energy, and a source that is local vs. being from a foreign country, like oil, and the benefits of the wind turbine far outweigh the negatives, in my opinion. I'd wager that far more damage is done from an oil spill than from a wind turbine.

[Yosemite Sam]

Here is an interesting article about a person who put a WindMill on her land in Ossipee. The article was in the Granite State News sometime in early 2008.



BY ELISSA PAQUETTE
Staff Writer

OSSIPEE — A 34-foot windmill reaches toward the sky from Cecily Clark’s hilltop acreage in Ossipee. The three, six- foot long fiberglass
blades rotate continuously downwind atop a tapered pole, producing a slight hum when the wind picks up. As the wind direction shifts, so
do the blades. Clark, a sculptor, admires the elegant design. “I always wanted one,” she says, “and the technology is here now.” A chance meeting with contractors Greg and Leonah Simon, recent residents from Nova Scotia who specialize in windmill installation, enabled Clark to fulfill her desire to run her studio on clean energy. “It’s a natural extension for me. My father was a product of the Depression. He saved tinfoil, made sure we turned out the lights when we left the room, and always emphasized conservation,” says Clark. “I can remember when we had to return our toothpaste tubes before buying a new one at the pharmacy. There was lead in them.” Clark,who has lived in the area since 1968, just beyond the Wolfeboro-Ossipee town line on Pork Hill, is a pioneer of sorts. She is the first person to generate wind energy
harnessed to the Wolfeboro Municipal Electric Department grid. Learning the process has been a challenge for her as well as Barry Muccio,
manager of the electric facility. Since the department is not under the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Commission, he had to gather
information to draft Wolfeboro’s own policy for a “net metering” pilot program. The pilot program was recently approved by Wolfeboro selectmen. The eight-page document states, “the goal will be to establish future policies which will remain consistent with prudent electrical practices set forth by the National Electric Safety Code,National Electric Code and any other Federal, State and local government codes, while offering a mutual service agreement which is legal, objective, reliable and safe to both participating parties (utility and customer).” Net metering allows a person to be connected to the grid with a meter that runs both ways. When the windmill is generating more electricity than needed, the electric meter runs backward and the electric company records a credit. When the customer’s needs exceed production, the meter reverses course. At the end of a month, there is either a bill to pay or a credit. Since there is no one else currently in her position, Clark will be a primary source of feedback over the course of the year – as well as any others who might want to emulate her. Standing on her hilltop, gazing over the Ossipee Mountain range, she points to a complex of white buildings in a clearing within the rolling, forested vista off in the distance. “They are interested in installing a windmill too,” she points out. Her neighbors also have expressed an interest. They’ll be able to
benefit from her journey through the installation steps and now, production. The anemometer on Clark’s sunroom wall tells her the highest rate of wind in a given day. Thirty to 40 mph gusts are frequent, making her location ideal for generating wind energy. Seventy mph is the highest rate she has recorded, Early in October 2007, Clark ordered her windmill. The cost? $12,000 for the fixed costs, excluding having to
hire an electrician and contractor, and wire at $1 a foot. Her windmill is 300 feet from the meter, necessitating a $300 expense for wire alone.
Trees had to be cut, a trench dug to hold a conduit for the wires, and a hole excavated for the 3,000 pounds of concrete in the six-foot deep base. The rebar cage itself, embedded in the concrete foundation, weighed 750 pounds. Every day brought excitement as the project progressed. Clark’s photo diary shows the men working with snow underfoot as winter approached. Clark terms it “most exciting” to watch the workers hoist the tower into place on its base with their gin pole, but she declares Dec. 22, 2007, the first day of operation,“ the real McCoy.” Clark can now look at her computer screen and see detailed, current information on her windmill’s productionrate. That data is interfaced with Arizona-based Southwest Wind power, a company that just started producing her Skystream 3.7 model a year ago. When
there are glitches, as there have been in the early months of the year, Greg and Leonah Simons have access to the data and are able to
communicate with the company. Soon after installation, production stopped while the inverter (the device that converts direct current to alternating current) had to be reconfigured. Currently, when the blades get to a certain speed, the turbine shuts off. The Simons are communicating with the company to resolve the issue. Clark is “unphased.” She recognizes that a venture into new territory is not without
obstacles to solve, saying, “Somebody has to be the first.” She estimates that she’ll be able to cover the electrical production for the kiln in her sculpture studio, but most important is that she is using clean, renewable energy. If there is any surplus, she has the satisfaction that other users will also be able to power their homes, even if only in part, from energy that is not polluting the air. The electric department installed the necessary meter with a kill switch to be used at any point that work needs to be done on the wires, and another meter shows her total production to date. On days when the wind is blowing, “it’s great to watch the electric meter run backwards.” Her Skystream 3.7 produced 14 kilowatt hours of electricity in a 20-hour period in March. To date, with various starts and stops, she’s produced close to 130 kilowatt hours. “I know it’s only a drop in the bucket, but it’s a step in the right direction. We should be encouraging clean energy use in some fashion.”
According to figures suppliedby the N.H. Public Utilities Commission, Clark’s wind turbine is among only 15 such units generating into
electric grids in New Hampshire. A few installations have been around since the 1980s. As for incentives, Wolfeboro voters passed a warrant article (31) to adopt the provisions of RSA72:66 for a property tax exemption of $5,000 for home owners equipped with a wind-powered
energy system. Under the state’s net-metering law, final rules have been established and are readily available online under Final Rules – PUC 900. Tom Frantz of the Public Utilities Commission urges interested parties to look at RSA362-a:9, which lists the conditions that net metering customers must follow. The Wolfeboro Muncipal Electric (WMED) Department’s pilot program adopted most of the rules set forth by the state, but as a separate entity, the department has the right to establish its own guidelines. One deviation is that the monthly base rate to customers, which stays the same in utility companies throughout the state, is currently double the rate for Wolfeboro’s net metering customers. Also, while the state’s net metering rules offer customers the opportunity to sell electricity to up to three retail customers, the
WMED draft states that the agreement with a customer will be “based on the premise of offsetting part or all of the customer’s own electrical requirements through the use of renewable energy technology.” That includes solar or hydro as well as wind. Cecily Clark is Wolfeboro’s first net metering customer, but more are sure to follow. Already, Peter Goodrich, who will be retiring in June to live full-time inWolfeboro in his solar home, is contributing to the grid too. New manufacturing and service economies are on the rise state and nationwide. Wolfeboro is on its way to going green.

[StephenB]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Hmmmmmm......I noticed that nobody replied to my post about the windmills out west killing THOUSANDS of birds. Mostly raptors. Golden Eagles, hawks and owls.......ground is littered with them around the windmills.
Somehow, I thought that folks who were interested in saving the planet might want to protect wildlife..................anyone care to comment??

Ummm, read up. I responded to your post already. Repeat: most of the birds killed out west are killed at one wind farm at Atamont Pass outside of the Bay area. Most folks now agree that this particular area, combined with lots of smaller, earlier generation windmills with smaller, higher speed blades, are responsible for the bird deaths. Please read up for the rest of my comments.

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Hmmmmmm......I noticed that nobody replied to my post about the windmills out west killing THOUSANDS of birds. Mostly raptors. Golden Eagles, hawks and owls.......ground is littered with them around the windmills.
Somehow, I thought that folks who were interested in saving the planet might want to protect wildlife..................anyone care to comment??

Your post caught my eye. I knew I had read a similar report. I remembered where I say it.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...nd-farms_N.htm

[John A. Birdsall]

This conversation is somewhat over my head, but in the beginning of this thread it was about windmill power. I am assuming that Rattlesnake has an association. It would seem to me that two things could go on the peak of Rattlesnake, Cell towers for At&t and windmills to give the island electricity.

I think the wind would generate enough for the whole island. Other Islands Large ones) would or could do the same thing.

As for Al Gore, let him keep thinking he invented the internet, Someone once said that he could be replaced, and they were right he was replaced.

[StephenB]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I read a story this month....National Geographic or Smithsonian,not sure which one,that indicated that 100's of thousands of birds were being killed by the windmills out west.Mostly golden eagles,hawks and owls.For some reason they are mostly raptors.I'm puzzled why people who profess to care about the enviroment would want a windmill anywhere near them.
As I recall,Exxon got fined millons of $$ for accidentally killing 80 migrating birds.The have stopped road and bridge projects for a nesting eagle,osprey or owl.There is a federal law that calls for huge fines for causing the death...or even harrassing or interferring with migrating birds.
Hey,I'm with ya' on solar,wave energy, ethanol,nuclear....you name it,but if you want windmills ,say goodbye to your little birdies.

From what I understand, the vast majority of windmill bird deaths in the West happen at one early and rather poorly planned windfarm in Atamont (sp?) near San Francisco. Due to poor knowledge of the time of bird migration routes, this particular facility is in a uniquely poor place as well as having a large number of pretty small windmills turning so fast the birds can't avoid the blades.

Ordinary skyscrapers are estimated to kill many times more birds than all of the more modern windfarms presently operating in the US.

[Grady223]

how about a cell phone tower on Rattlesnake, it would really improve reception and, with the windmills, you'd never notice it.

[fatlazyless]

The July 27, 2008 Union Leader: "For homeowners, powering with wind mills a tall order" by Clynton Namuo is helpfull and informative.. It includes links to the 2008 state law that regulates installations of renewable energy such as solar, wind,and something else and the state law seems to help exclude some arbitrary decisions by local town zoning boards as it provides State of NH guidelines for approving installations.

How 'bout a great big wind mill with an arty red & orange diamond rattlesnake displayed along the large tail structure of the windmill! What the heck....Rattlesnake Island already has an alligator on the shoreline....so how about a MONEY-MAKING rattlesnake atop the cliffs!

[trfour]

Knowing that humans have been using wind power for at least 5,500 years. Windmills have been used for irrigation pumping and for milling grain since the 7th century AD.

Brings to mind that sometimes first ideas just need to be tweaked a little, to keep up. And when all is said and done, just maybe our getting back to basics could make our planet better.

Link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

PS. I'm also curious as to how far new tech wind power has progressed since the Rattlesnake Island Association did their study.