e85

DC Pointer · 01-16-2010, 09:15 PM

I own a flex fuel 2010 Chevy Tahoe. Found a fill station in Canton, Mass with e85. It was priced at $2.40 per gallon where regular unleaded was at $2.79. Anyway, I decided to give it a shot. I had about 1/4th of a tank of regular 87 octane gasoline and filled up on the e85. First thing I noticed while filling was the different smell of the fuel. I then checked the color, looked like a purple color. Put about 100 miles on the truck today (mostly highway) and noticed about 1.5 mile LESS per gallon. Also noticed a different 'running' smell. Not the usual exhaust smell. I really didn't notice any performance related differences/issues. To be honest, with my family in the car on the way to the lake today, I was a bit weary, but I did get here. Anyone else have any experiences with the e85? Negative or positive? Wondering what the oil life difference will be, or plug issues?

Lakesrider · 01-17-2010, 09:01 AM

If you have a flex fuel car, the on board computer is supposed to notice which type of fuel you are using or combination thereof and either retard or advance your timing to prevent pinging. e85 does get less MPG. So yes you pay a bit less but go a bit less farther as well......

fatlazyless · 01-17-2010, 09:20 AM

As I recall, that Henry Ford's 1920 Model T could run on regular gas or on any bad moonshine too poison tasting to drink. Got to wonder what computer that old Model T was running?

Bizer · 01-17-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Pointer

... and noticed about 1.5 mile LESS per gallon. ...

I'm surprised it was that small a difference. E85 has 28% less energy-per-gallon than gasoline. Unless you're saving at least 28% per gallon, you should stick to gasoline. Also, 28% less energy per tankful means 28% fewer miles between fill-ups.

BroadHopper · 01-17-2010, 11:05 AM

E85 may be the darlling of the EPA, but it is a known fact that mpg suffers by as much as 25%. Due to the amount of energy needed to produce ethanol, its carbon footprint is substantial. One reason why the program is subsidize by Uncle Sam.

Ethanol is also a reason why your food bill is a bit higher.

DC Pointer · 01-17-2010, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

E85 may be the darlling of the EPA, but it is a known fact that mpg suffers by as much as 25%. Due to the amount of energy needed to produce ethanol, its carbon footprint is substantial. One reason why the program is subsidize by Uncle Sam.

Ethanol is also a reason why your food bill is a bit higher.

Right, but at least there is a push to become less reliant on the middle east whether through ethanol technology or other alternate forms of energy. IT is the future of our country.

VtSteve · 01-17-2010, 11:16 AM

The mpg on e85 flex fuel vehicles is all over the place. but all are lower, some dramatically so. Perhaps they've tuned the new ones differently, don't know.
This is from Toyota's FAQ on Flex Fuel

EPA-estimated mpg for Sequoia 4WD models is 13 mpg city and 18 mpg highway for unleaded gas, while the E85 EPA-estimated mpg will be 9 city and 12 highway. EPA-estimated mpg for the Tundra 4WD is 13 mpg city and 17 mpg highway on unleaded gas, while the E85 EPA-estimated mpg will be 10 city and 13 highway. Although, as expected, the E85 fuel economy numbers are substantially lower than regular gasoline, the Tundra and Sequoia E85 fuel economy is right in line with that of their competitors.

Don't forget to add the 51 cents subsidy to the cost at the pump. That would make it 2.91 a gallon.

VtSteve · 01-17-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Pointer

Right, but at least there is a push to become less reliant on the middle east whether through ethanol technology or other alternate forms of energy. IT is the future of our country.

If they make it so, it very well may just come to pass. But for many years, our top two suppliers of imported oil are Canada and Mexico. The drop in oil prices had inflicted harm to our domestic efforts to produce, as the drop in demand did. advancement towards E85 would further that harm. Refiners have been in a world of hurt since the dramatic fall in prices. At $40 oil, we'd be importing vast amounts more than we did this past year.

This is all about economics, not sourcing. Oil companies import because it's far less costly to do so. One could also say that at 51 cents a gallon subsidy, we can't afford any more ethanol. Ethanol producers suffered last year due to lower demand as well.

My educated guess is this. If Ethanol is further mandated as a percentage of gasoline at the pump, more and more ethanol will be imported in the future.

BroadHopper · 01-17-2010, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Pointer

Right, but at least there is a push to become less reliant on the middle east whether through ethanol technology or other alternate forms of energy. IT is the future of our country.

Recent studies indicate there is enough natural gas to last us 90 years. Looking at natural gas futures reflect this. There is plenty of natural gas in the US and Canada. Instead of subsidizing our farmers to grow more corn and less food. We should do the opposite. Everyone knows that corn syrup is bad for your health!

We should be converting over to natural gas. I have already install gas boilers, gas kitchen stoves and gas dryers in two properties. I have also installed gas inserts in the fireplaces. I have notice a big difference in total utilitiy cost. gas is cheaper than oil and my electric bill is way down.

If you look at Energy companies websites, there is a push to converting oil and coal plants to LNG.

Lakesrider · 01-17-2010, 01:24 PM

Well everyone knows there is a grand plan behind still using Middle east oil. "Cause when they run out we will still have natural gas and oil!

So,lets use theirs up first.....

Cobalt 25 · 01-18-2010, 02:34 PM

D.C. Pointer,

Thanks for your OP. You gave the first "real" data I have seen. Please keep us posted as to the gas mileage figures. That is, if you can afford to keep taking the hit!

Peter

John A. Birdsall · 01-18-2010, 03:55 PM

My dad bought a 37 ford and the ford dealer wanted to experiment with it. They did a complete tune up on it. Purred like a kitten, then they put the emission tester on it. the new trucks on the floor did not do as well. this must have been in 63

dog paw · 01-18-2010, 04:07 PM

Here's the "How it knows" on the Flex fuel Gm vehicles. We don't see a lot of E85 in my area, Md/Va dont want to..... Have enough problems with the junk they pass for fuel now

E85 Flex Fuel Description
E85 compatible vehicles no longer use an alcohol sensor to determine and adjust for the alcohol content of the fuel in the tank. Instead, the vehicle calculates the alcohol content of the fuel through measured adjustments.

The ethanol calculation occurs with the engine running after a refueling event has been detected via a measured change in the fuel level sender output. The virtual flex fuel sensor (V-FFS) algorithm temporarily closes the canister purge valve for a few seconds and monitors information from the closed loop fuel trim system to calculate the ethanol content. This logic executes several times until the ethanol calculation is deemed to be stable. This may take several minutes under low fuel flow conditions such as idle, or a shorter time during higher fuel flow, off-idle conditions.

Air-fuel ratios and the corresponding ethanol percentage are updated following each purge-off sequence. The fuel alcohol content percentage value can be read on a scan tool.

When an E85 compatible vehicle is built, an ECM or PCM replaced, or if the learned alcohol content has been reset with a scan tool the fuel system will need to contain ASTM gasoline with 10 percent or less ethanol content.

A minimum of 11 liters (3 gallons) must be put in the tank in order for the vehicle to recognize a re-fueling event. It is not necessary to turn the ignition OFF in order to have the re-fueling event recognized, however local safety regulations should be followed.

After the re-fueling event, the system registers the amount of fuel that was added, relative to the amount that was in the tank. Reading fuel trim and O2 sensor activity, the system determines if the fuel added was either ASTM Gasoline or ASTM E85. Based on that determination, the system adjusts to the expected alcohol mix in the fuel tank, and then the fuel trim and O2 sensor activity fine tunes the adjustments. The system must remain in closed loop in order for this adjustment to occur. Numerous short trips after switching from gasoline to E85, or E85 to gasoline, can result in driveability symptoms due to the inability of the system to adjust for fuel composition by not attaining closed loop operation.

Switching Between Gasoline and E85
No special precautions need to be taken when switching back and forth between gasoline and E85 other than re-fueling events must be 11 liters (3 gallons) or greater, and the vehicle must remain in closed loop long enough, usually by the time the engine has maintained full operating temperature, to calculate the composition of the new blend in the tank.

LIforrelaxin · 01-18-2010, 05:32 PM

So reading this thread there is some good information on using E85.... and I think it is cool that someone with a vehicle so equiped is trying it....

However if you get 25% less energy per gallon, you know when this ethanol fuel is really going to stink.....WHEN YOU TRY TO PULL A BOAT.....

Airwaves · 01-18-2010, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by LIForrelaxin

Quote:

, you know when this ethanol fuel is really going to stink.....WHEN YOU TRY TO PULL A BOAT.....

Not to worry...no conventional gasoline boat can run on E85 so there will be no boat to pull!

Sue Doe-Nym · 01-19-2010, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Originally posted by LIForrelaxin

Not to worry...no conventional gasoline boat can run on E85 so there will be no boat to pull!

You sure got that right!!!

01-16-2010, 09:15 PM	#1
DC Pointer Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 40 Thanks: 18 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	e85 I own a flex fuel 2010 Chevy Tahoe. Found a fill station in Canton, Mass with e85. It was priced at $2.40 per gallon where regular unleaded was at $2.79. Anyway, I decided to give it a shot. I had about 1/4th of a tank of regular 87 octane gasoline and filled up on the e85. First thing I noticed while filling was the different smell of the fuel. I then checked the color, looked like a purple color. Put about 100 miles on the truck today (mostly highway) and noticed about 1.5 mile LESS per gallon. Also noticed a different 'running' smell. Not the usual exhaust smell. I really didn't notice any performance related differences/issues. To be honest, with my family in the car on the way to the lake today, I was a bit weary, but I did get here. Anyone else have any experiences with the e85? Negative or positive? Wondering what the oil life difference will be, or plug issues?

01-17-2010, 09:20 AM	#3
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,539 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 297 Thanked 958 Times in 699 Posts	As I recall, that Henry Ford's 1920 Model T could run on regular gas or on any bad moonshine too poison tasting to drink. Got to wonder what computer that old Model T was running? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-17-2010, 11:05 AM	#5
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,517 Thanks: 3,122 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	Wsate of money E85 may be the darlling of the EPA, but it is a known fact that mpg suffers by as much as 25%. Due to the amount of energy needed to produce ethanol, its carbon footprint is substantial. One reason why the program is subsidize by Uncle Sam. Ethanol is also a reason why your food bill is a bit higher. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

01-18-2010, 03:55 PM	#12
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	1937 Ford 85 Hp My dad bought a 37 ford and the ford dealer wanted to experiment with it. They did a complete tune up on it. Purred like a kitten, then they put the emission tester on it. the new trucks on the floor did not do as well. this must have been in 63

01-18-2010, 05:32 PM	#14
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,835 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 884 Times in 517 Posts	A question So reading this thread there is some good information on using E85.... and I think it is cool that someone with a vehicle so equiped is trying it.... However if you get 25% less energy per gallon, you know when this ethanol fuel is really going to stink.....WHEN YOU TRY TO PULL A BOAT..... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

01-17-2010, 09:01 AM	#2
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	If you have a flex fuel car, the on board computer is supposed to notice which type of fuel you are using or combination thereof and either retard or advance your timing to prevent pinging. e85 does get less MPG. So yes you pay a bit less but go a bit less farther as well......

01-17-2010, 11:16 AM	#7
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	The mpg on e85 flex fuel vehicles is all over the place. but all are lower, some dramatically so. Perhaps they've tuned the new ones differently, don't know. This is from Toyota's FAQ on Flex Fuel EPA-estimated mpg for Sequoia 4WD models is 13 mpg city and 18 mpg highway for unleaded gas, while the E85 EPA-estimated mpg will be 9 city and 12 highway. EPA-estimated mpg for the Tundra 4WD is 13 mpg city and 17 mpg highway on unleaded gas, while the E85 EPA-estimated mpg will be 10 city and 13 highway. Although, as expected, the E85 fuel economy numbers are substantially lower than regular gasoline, the Tundra and Sequoia E85 fuel economy is right in line with that of their competitors. Don't forget to add the 51 cents subsidy to the cost at the pump. That would make it 2.91 a gallon.

01-17-2010, 01:24 PM	#10
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	Well everyone knows there is a grand plan behind still using Middle east oil. "Cause when they run out we will still have natural gas and oil! So,lets use theirs up first.....

01-18-2010, 02:34 PM	#11
Cobalt 25 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cape Cod Posts: 213 Thanks: 219 Thanked 36 Times in 20 Posts	D.C. Pointer, Thanks for your OP. You gave the first "real" data I have seen. Please keep us posted as to the gas mileage figures. That is, if you can afford to keep taking the hit! Peter

01-18-2010, 04:07 PM	#13
dog paw Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 34 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Here's the "How it knows" on the Flex fuel Gm vehicles. We don't see a lot of E85 in my area, Md/Va dont want to..... Have enough problems with the junk they pass for fuel now E85 Flex Fuel Description E85 compatible vehicles no longer use an alcohol sensor to determine and adjust for the alcohol content of the fuel in the tank. Instead, the vehicle calculates the alcohol content of the fuel through measured adjustments. The ethanol calculation occurs with the engine running after a refueling event has been detected via a measured change in the fuel level sender output. The virtual flex fuel sensor (V-FFS) algorithm temporarily closes the canister purge valve for a few seconds and monitors information from the closed loop fuel trim system to calculate the ethanol content. This logic executes several times until the ethanol calculation is deemed to be stable. This may take several minutes under low fuel flow conditions such as idle, or a shorter time during higher fuel flow, off-idle conditions. Air-fuel ratios and the corresponding ethanol percentage are updated following each purge-off sequence. The fuel alcohol content percentage value can be read on a scan tool. When an E85 compatible vehicle is built, an ECM or PCM replaced, or if the learned alcohol content has been reset with a scan tool the fuel system will need to contain ASTM gasoline with 10 percent or less ethanol content. A minimum of 11 liters (3 gallons) must be put in the tank in order for the vehicle to recognize a re-fueling event. It is not necessary to turn the ignition OFF in order to have the re-fueling event recognized, however local safety regulations should be followed. After the re-fueling event, the system registers the amount of fuel that was added, relative to the amount that was in the tank. Reading fuel trim and O2 sensor activity, the system determines if the fuel added was either ASTM Gasoline or ASTM E85. Based on that determination, the system adjusts to the expected alcohol mix in the fuel tank, and then the fuel trim and O2 sensor activity fine tunes the adjustments. The system must remain in closed loop in order for this adjustment to occur. Numerous short trips after switching from gasoline to E85, or E85 to gasoline, can result in driveability symptoms due to the inability of the system to adjust for fuel composition by not attaining closed loop operation. Switching Between Gasoline and E85 No special precautions need to be taken when switching back and forth between gasoline and E85 other than re-fueling events must be 11 liters (3 gallons) or greater, and the vehicle must remain in closed loop long enough, usually by the time the engine has maintained full operating temperature, to calculate the composition of the new blend in the tank.