New to boating...shocked safety course not mandatory!

[New Hampshire Native]

I absolutely cannot believe the Boater Safety Course is not mandatory PRIOR to setting foot in the helm of a boat. I understand they are "phasing" it in, but I feel it should be MANDATORY prior to registering a boat in the state. If stopped by Marine Patrol without it, the offense should go against your driving record, no matter which state you are from. I truly believe that this, along with speeds over 45mph kept to the broads area (funny, and I am new to this, no bias, just what I have observed on my limited time out there) on WEEKENDS between Memorial day and Labor day, are the way to go. The boater education thing still blows my mind. (This was NOT a politically paid advertisement, just one person's point of view).

[upthesaukee]

Imagine the problem of trying to have enough classes to certify all those boat operators in a short period of time (for arguements sake, let's say the law was passed in June with a January effective date. Many people would not be comfortable taking an on line course, and there simply are not enough instructors to go around for all the classes that are needed. I did take my class over the internet, but would love to take the class along with my wife. Between her schedule and mine, it's almost impossible to find a class that fits our schedules. In a perfect world, there would be more certification to drive a boat. We are heading that way, but at a slower pace.


Once the education requirements are met, hopefully we will start seeing more enforcement of the rules, especially those involving safety issues such as right of way, 150 foot rule, and proper equipment.

Just another opinion...

[New Hampshire Native]

I agree with you on the classroom issue. For those not comfortable with online, the video/book course is an option. One of those two should be immediate and the classroom should be the phase in portion that is REQUIRED, also, by the time limits set. At least the online or video courses would teach some very basics before you hit the water. I am glad I took the online course and will also be attending a classroom in August or October. As you, this is just an opinion.

[KonaChick]

Education is first and foremost. Just because you're educated on the rules though does NOT mean you'll obey them. This happens on our roadways everyday and our lake is no different. What will work I feel is to hit people where it hurts..their pockets. Make the fines much stiffer..people will get the idea, and the extra money can fund more MP. Another thing that should be done is the point system just like driving licenses. You get a cetain number of points and you lose the privelege of driving your boat for a certain amount of time. I know the above ideas are not foolproof but I don't think we should stop at ecuation..take it a few steps further!

[Lakewinniboater]

KonaChick..... Very well stated

[New Hampshire Native]

Agree with fines and point system, I had stated to tie it to your license. I read right on these boards that 80% of the accidents on the lake last year involved folks that had NO SAFETY COURSE or boating card. Hello! If 50% of them had basic education, how many accidents would have been prevented. If 100% had some basic knowledge, who knows how many accidents would have been prevented. Don't even get me started on BWI, that's another whole issue.

[Woodsy]

Here is what the NTSB has to say on the matter of Boater Education....

http://www.ntsb.gov/alerts/sa%5F007.pdf

[KonaChick]

Great site Woodsy thanks..I had no idea the lack of PFD's was so prevelant. I have been in this situation thought boating with some friends who have NOT made their children (10-14 age range) wear their PFD's. This is someone who HAS taken the Boating Safety Course. My kids always argue with us when we're boating with them about wearing their PFD's. Next time this comes up I'm going to point out the stats on that website..Thanks!

[Kamper]

When I'm with someone required to wear a PFD I usually wear one too. It's a good example and good manners to suffer as much as they have to.

[TomC]

and thus am safe, not uncomfortable, and set a good example for my kids.

http://www.SOSpenders.com/

[T.H.E. Binz]

I'm O.K. with the phased approach, but the incredibly ludicrous policy is that renters of boats are not required to have the safety course!

[Woodsy]

Actually, they are at least required to take a 20 question test to make sure the bases are covered. Not that its the best solution... but it is something.

What is truly scary is that there is no visual aid for the MP to separate out who has a certificate vs. who doesn't. daytrippers and vacationers can just show up, plunk thier boats in and nobody knows if they have it or not.

You should read my proposal over in propellers post about "Weekend Observations" It isn't meant to be a speed limit debate, just a proposal that might make both sides happy and help out the MP's...

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=2264

Woodsy

[KonaChick]

and this is where steep fines come in..you rent a house for a week and take your boat out w/out knowledge of the laws, and get a 200$$ ticket the first day out..you bet your sweet bibby you're going to educate yourself on the laws and rules for the rest of your stay!

[New Hampshire Native]

1) I WILL write the state lawmakers, as your brochure asked.
2) Most boats have flags, why not make a green flag with the certification number of the boater safety person on board, to fly from the boat? The flags would be a mandatory purchase ($10.00?) when you recieve your certification. At least you would be able to see which boats have noone on board that has had the safety course. If you switched to another boat for the day, bring the flag with you. If caught by Marine Patrol flying a flag and not possessing the Boater's license to match....$500.00 fine. Pretty simple, make it hurt.

[Woodsy]

I don't fly flags on my boats... nor do I want to. I think a bright colored sticker next to the bow numbers would work better, similar to your registration sticker. It makes it easy for a quick visual check for compliance.

Woodsy

[Boater]

If you are going to use stickers, flags and high fines why not just require licensing.

I can think of many reasons why labeling the boat wouldn't work. It's the driver, not the boat (where have I heard that before?).

My idea is that the DRIVER should wear a brightly colored lanyard around his neck with a waterproof proof card attached certifying the driver. That way I could drive ANY boat without the need for a sticker or flag.

If you are going to identify the BOAT you might as well just require that the owner has the safety certificate when he registers it. That way you'd know that any registered boat has a safety certified owner.

Of course none of this will fly. Look how much trouble it was to pass this weak, phased in training that we have now.

[BroadHopper]

I really don't think that is a safe idea. Nor is the online course.
When I took the on-hands course, I love the way the instructor took us outside and show us what is 150 ft!. That should be a mandatory part of the safety course. There are too many infractions of the 150' rule!
I'm tired of seeing the rental boats/jetskis violating the 150', no wake, and or ROW rules. Seems like the MPs are tied up with chasing the renters down.

[New Hampshire Native]

80% of the problems would go away if you were required to be licensed in order to DRIVE a boat, just like a car. Remember how scared you were when the Driver's license official took you for your test on the streets to get your license. If you couldn't parallel park, etc you failed? I am simply saying if you are not going to require licensing, then you need to identify boats with SOMEONE on board that has the boater safety card. At least one person on board has some kind of idea what the rules are. Identifying the boat only just means someone passed the course even though they may not be on the boat. If you haven't got a boat registered in New Hampshire, then you need to take the test first. That's another issue, if I want to ride my ATV in Maine, I need to pay a non-resident registration fee to be able to ride there. The additional money from the registrations goes to ATV safety instruction and additional trail building. Gee, there's an ingenious idea. I can hear the argument now, that it will drive away the tourists that spend the money here. Bull....I still will register my ATV to ride in Maine. It just adds revenue that could be spent on boater education. Any thoughts?

[Woodsy]

NH Native...

Boats are a completely different animal than ATV's. You pay a non-resident fee in maine because ATV's are not regulated at the federal level. Boats are! Not so many years ago, you could ride your snowmobile between NH, VT and ME without having to register your sled in each state. There was a reciprocal agreement between the 3 states that honored the registration from the home state as valid. I am not sure if MA was part of the reciprocal agreement or not. Maine was the first to break the deal and now they have all done away with that completely, and as such tourism has suffered.

Anyway, your missing the point of my proposal...

First off, there is only one state in the union that requires a boat license, thats Alabama. Its still an experiment at this point and the jury is still out on how well it works. It seems to be working quite well, but it also adds another thick layer of bureaucracy to the government that will need to be paid for, sucking up funds and resources from where the money is needed most. Its unclear to me as how or if there is any reciprocity between Alabama and any other states. They do however list that you can take the course online...

Anyway, back to my point. Even if you require a boating license, there is no way to tell if in fact the person driving the boat actually has one. If you read my proposal thouroughly you would see that I included a provision that made the owner of the boat liable for the actions of anyone else who drove the boat.

So your right, if the the owner gets his sticker, the MP's would assume the guy driving the boat was the owner and has succesfully completed Boater Ed... for arguments sake, lets say the driver was not the owner and had no formal boater education and he pulls some bonehead move. The MP's witness this move and pull the guy over. Now the guy driving gets a ticket for not having his boater ed cert, and the boat owner gets a ticket for letting an uneducated boater drive his boat. It won't take people long to get the message that we take boater education seriously. I am not too sure we want to tag the ticket to someones drivers license, but certainly we can tag it to thier safe boater certificate.. 1st offense $100 fine, 2nd offense within 1 year period $250 fine and completion of a classroom safe boater course, 3rd offense within 1 year period $500 fine and 6 months loss of boating privileges.

Right now, anyone from anywhere in the US can splash their boat on Lake Winni and go for a cruise. This is because of reciprocity. They are by NH law required to have the safe boater certificate if they fall within the appropriate age, but there is no way to tell. With my proposal, every boat on the lake will have a visual identifier that tells the MP (and other boaters) that they have been at least educated minimally. There will be more MP because they will be funded for Lake Winni by the people who use Lake Winni.

The law of the seas has been around alot longer than this country. The numbers on your boat are not just state registration numbers, they are U.S. Coast Guard numbers, identifying your boat as a U.S. flagged vessel. As such you can bring your boat to just about any waterway in the country. Just like you can drive your car in any state. You are required to obey the rules of the state you are visiting. But nowhere on any public boat launch that I have seen on Lake Winnipesaukee is it posted that Boater Education is a requirement for boating in this state. Alot of good people just don't know some of the different laws we have here in NH.

Woodsy

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by New Hampshire Native

80% of the problems would go away if you were required to be licensed in order to DRIVE a boat, just like a car. Remember how scared you were when the Driver's license official took you for your test on the streets to get your license. If you couldn't parallel park, etc you failed? I am simply saying if you are not going to require licensing, then you need to identify boats with SOMEONE on board that has the boater safety card. At least one person on board has some kind of idea what the rules are. Identifying the boat only just means someone passed the course even though they may not be on the boat. If you haven't got a boat registered in New Hampshire, then you need to take the test first. {snip}

While I'm not against a boat license, I'm not sure what % of the problems it would solve, consider this.... Ideally both the present certificate training and a license, the latter presumably with an exam, accomplish the same thing; exposure to and ideally retention of the appropriate boating rules and regs. You could make the good point that examination by a person (vs a test) means the examinee would really have to learn at least some of the material. I could make the same point that the present training would accomplish the same thing if it required an examiner and on-water test (many here have opined this would be a good thing). Ideally a license carries with it some "memory"; that is repeated infractions get increasingly punished and at some point your license can be revoked (hopefully preventing you from driving). This is perhaps the only real difference I see btw the 2 approaches. Presently I don't believe the boating fine structure allows this "progressivity" nor do I know when your boating privileges get yanked (perhaps Skip can comment). Certainly the Littlefeild case shows this can happen under the present system, even if only rarely. But look at how people, presumably licensed, drive their cars. Certainly mere licensing isn't stopping the bonehead behavior on our roadways, nor does revocation always stop someone from driving the car. If you can remember how scared you were prior to your exam, try to remember how scared you were 6 months, 1 year, 10 years later. Not much I'll wager. With that in mind I say it's unsure how much more effect a boat license program would have over what NH is presently trying to accomplish. You going to have some ignorants that hopefully can be educated. You going to have some malevolents that either system only imperfectly removes from the scene and in between you've got a lot of morons who switch off their brain when they switch on the ignition. Either system requires perhaps more stick than presently used, I'm wondering where the carrot is ? Stick w/o carrot is only half the motivational story. Somehow "we" have to indoctrinate people with pride in doing the "right thing" so that they feel good when they handle situation X in a proper, dare I say professional, manner. But now I'm straying from the topic ....

[New Hampshire Native]

That is the ENTIRE problem. If you make a bonehead more, take a chance, speed, fail to yield, etc. in a car, your license is effected. A fine is imposed, a 7 year mark is put on your license. The officer that stops you can look your history up, ticket you, realize whether or not you have a license still, and ticket accordingly. Everyone mentions how much it would cost to get a program going. The program is already there, it is called the Driver's License Program for automobiles. Sure, you might have to pay $50.00 every five years, like you do now for an automobile license, but at least the fine system, being responsible for your actions and the like would mean a little more. Sure, you do gain some comfort the longer you are behind the "wheel", but if you start out not even knowing the basics and you never learn what is right, there lies the problem. Folks on these boards have said that most violations are the 150 foot rule, did you ever think that most of the mistakes are made by folks that don't even know the rule exists? Sure there are some idiots that just plain ignore the rules set in place, and some that have been impaired by alcohol and possibly drugs. When you pass the Motorcycle driving test, you get the classification added to your driver's license....let's do it with boats, too. Let's tie it into your Driver's license, they do with motorcycles. I believe folks realize there is little chance on the lake that they will get caught performing bonehead moves, and if they do, little will be done about it and it will not affect their driver's license. Also, the violations should affect their boating insurance (or the insurance of the boat owner) just like it does in a car. If you get more than one violation on your driver's license for a car, your rates go up. Boat owners might decide WHO drives their boat,besides themselves, if anyone. The fines need to be stiffer, $60.00 for no boater certification? Make it $500.00 for the first offense, $1000.00 for each additional offense. Loss of auto driver's license for third and beyond. Send the message out, we are serious about safety. I realize the millionaires would care less about the fines, but attaching it to the driver's license would hurt. The majority of the folks driving on the lake, it would affect there wallets and licenses heavily. You should be able to go out on the lake at anytime and feel safe. I know quite a few locals that will not even take there boat out on the weekends, and most have lived here their entire lives. Just because I have been driving a car for 24 years, does not mean that I now have a comfort zone to violate every law put on the books. I sure as heck had a better understanding of what the laws were before I was unleashed with a deaadly weapon on the state's highways. I had to SHOW someone that I could handle the thing. Also, at least you have to stay between the lines with a car....there are no lines on the lake. Hope this helps stir up some good conversation.

[Woodsy]

You guys really need to stop and think this through. Lake Winnipesaukee is a TOURIST destination. Lots and lots of people come up here from all over the country. They spend lots and lots of money. Nobody wants to restrict or hinder that cash flow as it really helps out the economy of NH. Thats why we have rental boats...

Now you are proposing a boater license. Where or how is an out of state visitor supposed to get one? Not everyone who boats on Lake Winnipesaukee has a NH license or resides in NH. I would guess the majority of boaters on Lake Winni are not NH residents but from out of state, mostly from MA, who are day tripping or have family camps. Those that are staying in the motels are usually visiting for week or less. This is why the rental boat certificate program is administered the way it is. You state that the DMV is already in place. How is that supposed to work? Are we (citizens of NH) going to have to pay to keep a DMV office open on weekends to accomodate all of the people who visit and want to boat. There are only so many hours in a day to administer on the water boat tests. Then there are the legalities of attaching points to an out of state drivers license for boating violations....

Lets be realistic and not emotional. Boater Education works. We just need to get it phased in completely. I think a sticker is a nice non obtrusive way to give a clear visual indicator to all that the owner has passed the boater safety course. The lanyard thing might work, except that people tend to forget to wear them, or lose them, or they get stolen. A simple cheap sticker, right next to your bow numbers is highly effective, and you can get it by mail or at a marina when you register your boat. put a line on your registration so that the number of the safety sticker can be recorded, just like your registration sticker number. As for the fines, I don't think they need to be excessive. $500 first offense would never fly.

Be realistic and we can effect real change....

Woodsy

[VarneyPoint]

Woodsy, I was writing up this response when I read yours so mine is a little redundant.

I think we can all agree that more and better education would benefit our waters immensely. However, as someone already stated, by making the process of obtaining a certificate, license, etc. difficult, it is going to drive away tourist dollars from the area and create layer upon layer of red tape that ultimately will need to be paid for by us, the taxpayers. We live in a unique area. Lake Winnipesaukee is a large, busy place for essentially 3 months. While I am all for hiring more MP officers and increasing their budget, etc. etc. it is going to cost money, real money. Money that can only be found by increasing registration fees. Increasing fines won’t provide the revenue needed to add 20 more officers and 5 more patrol boats to the lake. Also, the idea of attaching what you do on the water, to what you do on the road is unrealistic. Boats and cars are two different animals, regulated by two different agencies. With the exception of DWI, you can’t make a reasonable case that someone who is a bad boat driver is automatically a bad car driver. I can understand the thought process but I disagree with the conclusion. If I violate the 150’ rule by 30’ I shouldn’t get points on my driver’s license or have my auto insurance go up. In two years time (by 2008) everyone presumably driving a boat will have to be certified. So, I think the idea of placing a flag or sticker on each boat is silly. There isn’t a sticker on my car that says I am licensed. When I register it, the RMV checks to make sure I am a current licensed driver. I think boat registrations should be the same. In 2008, when you register your boat, PWC, etc., the state should cross check to see if you are certified. This would be pretty easy. If you are, no problems, if not, you can’t register until you are. People will be sure to get certified ASAP if they cannot register their “toys.” Ideally, you could assume that 9 out of 10 boats you pass on the water is driven by a certified operator (in 2008) if it is registered in NH. We are getting there, it is not perfect and does nothing now, but it is coming. In the meantime there a couple of things that could be done right now. Eliminate the online test. What stops 2 or 3 guys, teens, etc. from huddling around a computer for a couple of hours while they each fill out the forms and take the test cheating along the way. At least make people take the test in written form in a classroom setting. Second, raise the registration fee by $10. There are approximately 100,000 boats registered boats in NH. Take the extra million and give it to the MP. I would think a million bucks could go a long way into paying for more officers and patrol boats. Would you really mind paying an extra $10? It is 4 gallons of gas.

[Woodsy]

Varney...

I pretty much agree with you. The reason I pursued the sticker idea is because it covers out of state residents and day trippers. Your version only covers NH residents or boats that are registered in NH. If EVERYONE who boats on Lake Winni is required to display the sticker, and in order to buy the sticker you have to show your safe boaters card, then it covers all contigencys, especially day trippers, tourists and renters (already required to take safety checklist). This method insures 98% of everyone on the water has been at least minimally educated. The other 2% are uneducated people driving "stickered boats".

The upside to doing this for Lake Winnipesaukee is that the money raised by this program can benefit just Lake Winnipesaukee. Lake Winnipesaukee boaters will be paying for extra MP & equipment for use on Lake Winni. The MP has jurisdiction over all of the States waterways. That means if I guy up in Colebrook is paying the extra $$ in his boat registration, he is going to expect better MP service for his extra money.


Woodsy

[KonaChick]

Eliminating the on-line test will also affect the tourist dollars coming into the state. Can you imagine the cost of starting a classroom only safety course and everyone HAS to have taken it before being allowed to operate a boat? What would the daytrippers from out of state do? It just doesn't seem feasible in my book. Where would the start up costs of such a program come from? Would they have to be held in different states as to accomodate all the MASS, CT, NY, NJ folk who flock to the lake every summer? The state would lose MILLIONS of dollars every summer if we made it mandatory that everyone driving a boat on Winni take a classroom course on boaters safety. While far from perfect I feel the on-line course is an alternative from taking a classroom course.

[New Hampshire Native]

I appreciate your informative conversations on this. Maybe 2008 will be the magic year. That will solve 80% of the problems. What can we do about visitors to the state as far as being sure they are informed on this monster lake that is extremely busy at times? Not much if they own a place on the lake, but if they don't then maybe they should show boater safety before being able to launch at a marina or public launch. Same thing, 20 question basic test for a day or weekend pass. Ideas?

[PROPELLER]

Just a couple of comments regarding Varney Points post. If the state is going to cross reference boat registrations with boater certificates the state may need to take away the ability of marinas to register boats. I'm not sure the state wants marinas to have access to their computers to check this.

The other problem is there are many people who have already taken or not taken(someone else took the test for them) the online test. So even though everyone is required to have the boater certificate by 2008, many people either did not receive an adequate level of knowledge or did not complete it at all even though they have the certificate so there will still be alot of uninformed people out there boating. The only way to correct that would be to force all who took the online course to go to a classroom course & if they don't, they lose their boaters certificate until they do.

[PROPELLER]

Konachick, NH accepts courses from other states so out of staters could take classroom courses in their own state before boating here.

[Dave R]

Spent a day boating on the ICW in NJ this Summer. We got it made on Winnipesaukee, folks. It's far worse in other places. That said, if you think Winni is too crazy, go to Sebago in Maine. Wonderful place with far fewer boats. This is not meant as a slam on Winni, it's still may favorite place to be but mentioned in case anyone wanted to broaden their horizons a bit. Next year, I'll probably be raving about the NY state canal system and all the lakes that connect to it.

[Misty Blue]

Please folks, give me a chance to vent.

I have been a CG Auxiliary instructor since 1988. I have taught over one thousand students. Add my wife's students and the numbers approach 2500.

The "phase in period" to give the NHMP time to educate everyone sounded like a good idea. It didn't work.

The NHMP was not overwhelmed by students. Nor was the USCG Auxiliary or the Power Squadron. The students did not come!

Over and over again calsses were scheduled and had to be cancled due to LACK OF STUDENTS! Why?

My thought is that most of the boaters in NH are not from around here. They come from out of state. When they are here they don't want to spend their valuable fun time in a classroom. They may be convinced to take a class over the winter out of state (legal move) but are reluctant to take one here during the summer.

Educated boater identification: Flags? Stickers? What do they mean? They are no indication that the person at the helm knows his stuff. What we need is to put some teeth in the boating education law.

Over and over again I have heard people who are willing to "take a chance" on the $50 fine. No big deal. This happens all the time.

How about this. Enact legislation that removes the violating vessel from the water. Yup. If a vessel is pulled over for a violation and there is no one on board that can produce a safe boating certificate (from any state or authorized agency) the vessels annual registration decal must be delivered to NHMP within 24 hours. No flags or ribbons. No education, no registration. Period.

With this "big stick" policy owners of boats and jet skis (from my experiance the worst violaters of the education rules) will DEMAND that their boats do not get underway without an educated boater on board. It is that simple.

Lastly, while I am still on a tangent, I do not recommend the on line or vidio courses. They just are not enough. Would you feel OK if the guy fixing your kid's brakes learned his trade from a vidio? No mater what they say without a proctored exam. it is not NASBLA approved. It is only good in NH.

What's more it is not enough. As Broad Hopper said to have an instructor who can answer questions and "feel out" the students is vital. Please encourage your friends and neighbors to get a real boating education.

I am planning a mid week class later this month in Moultonborough. If you are interested drop me a post or call 455-7178.

Thanks....I feel better!

Misty Blue

[PROPELLER]

I must agree with Dave R, I did all of my boating in Mass before moving to Winnipesaukee & it is a dream here at Winnipesaukee compared to the ocean around the North Shore of Mass & Cape Ann.

Based on reading articles in boating mags there are many other places around the country which are much worse than Winnipesaukee.

I have said it before in other posts. The boaters complaining about Winnipesaukee have no idea how good it is. Just try boating in some other areas & you will see.

[New Hampshire Native]

I agree more towards the side of Misty Blue. Sticker just means someone skated through. I also agree there should be a requirement to take the ONLINE now and phase in the CLASSROOM by 2008 or whatever.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

...
If you read my proposal thouroughly you would see that I included a provision that made the owner of the boat liable for the actions of anyone else who drove the boat. ....

The law of the seas has been around alot longer than this country. The numbers on your boat are not just state registration numbers, they are U.S. Coast Guard numbers, identifying your boat as a U.S. flagged vessel. ...

Woodsy

A lot of interesting information but some of it may need clarifiying.

In this state the boat owner is civilly liable for any damage caused by anyone operating their boat. You can find this information on the back of your registraion just above where you need to sign it. Vicarious criminal liability for actions by another person is not valid under our legal system for more reasons than anyone would care to read.

Second, the boat numbers are not USCG numbers. Those really are state numbers. The CG used to register boats in states that did not do it themselves. Those states eventually realised there was money to be made...
The current system of numbers follows a federally mandated pattern. A "Documented Vessel" is federally registerred but is not exempt from the state requirements of its home port.

[Dave R]

Random thoughts somewhat related to this topic.

When a friend of mine gets into boating for the first time, I buy them Chapman's as a boat warming gift. Also provided a copy with a boat I sold to some newbies a couple years back. So far it's worked out really well. Additionally, I try to set a good example when boating with newbies and offer advice in a nice way when I can. Maybe if we all did this there would be fewer Captain Boneheads on the lake.

Frankly, I don't get mad unless someone does something deliberately inconsiderate. That makes me so mad I have been known to shake my head, maybe even comment to other people in my boat and then go on to enjoy my day. Maybe I should seek anger management therapy.

If I ever cross your path and do something boneheaded, please know it was not deliberate.

If you and I are going to pass each other safely with less than 150 feet seperation and you don't slow down, I probably won't either. I also won't care.

[Aquadeziac]

In reading through this thread I can see that "Safety/ Education is a good thing as long as: 1) It doesn't inconvenience someone and 2) The Lake communities don't lose any of the Almighty Tourist Dollars." Whats the going rate for a human life nowadays? Whats an acceptable number of deaths or injuries to offset the Tourist Income? I bet Mr Hartman's family won't be spending as much money in the area. And did we ever ascertain if Mr Littlefield was a Safety Certified Boater? How about the people that got hit head-on near Eagle Island a while back? Is that an acceptable injury?
Last Wednesday I was entering the Channel from Paugus Bay on my jetski, idling, in the No Wake Zone when what to my wondering eyes should appear from behind me, but a Baja 32' so new there weren't even bow numbers on it yet. It never even slowed till it was way past me bobbing viciously in their wake. And what did i see from the rear of the boat? Two guys in their bolster seats with a third guy, that I can only assume by his dress to be a salesman, trying to stand between said seats. When they finally slowed down (well into the NWZ), where did they go? You got it, Channel Marine. And the obvious salesman never made any motion to the driver about not having slowed down when he came past the bouy. All he wanted was to see that driver's fresh new hull numbers on that boat. Whats wrong with that picture?
I totally agree with everything Misty Blue said (with the exception of lumping me with the rest of the jetskiers ) I own a boat and a jetski and drive them both as I would expect others to. I consider myself a safe and contientious boater. I believe you should have to do more than write to the address on the back of a matchbook to be certified (what the video and online test amount to), and the severity of the penalty needs to be steep enough to make you think twice (affect your driver's license, ins. rates, impounded boat/watercraft), and if the boneheads are not smart enough to think, then its worked and its a safer lake. Can you say "Zero Tolerance"?

[New Hampshire Native]

Aqua, your brain thinks the exact same way mine does. That's why I started the thread in the first place. i knew there had to be folks that thought the same way I did. You nailed it on the head.....the almighty dollar.

[Silver Duck]

While I'm all for mandatory safety training, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the on-line course vs. classroom training.

Knowledge is knowledge, however it's acquired. Anybody who really wants to learn the very, very basic info presented in the current boater certification material can easily do so using the on-line course. Boneheads aren't interested in being safe and courteous boaters and will do a "memory dump" as soon as they get their paper, however the material is presented! Or, at best, comply with the rules only when in sight of the MP and ignore them most of the time (which will not do much to alleviate the present situation, since the MP can't be everywhere at once!)

Neither presentation method can impart common courtesy and respect for others (which is learned in childhood or not at all), or the sound judgement and boat handling skills that are needed for safe boating and which come only through experience.

IMHO, what's sorely lacking lately is what I'll call a proper "skipper's attitude", where one accepts personal responsibility for safe operation. This attitude is what makes one want to have the proper safety gear, follow the nav rules, look out for the safety of nearby boats, learn the waters in which one will be boating, and above all else, think about the possible consequences of what one is about to do before doing it.

I learned it from my father (an ex-Coastie and Merchant Marine officer) as a boy, and have tried very hard to pass it on to my sons. Maybe the boating community can figure out a way to pass this attitude along to newbies through peer pressure. But no short course, no matter how it is presented, has a chance in heck of developing it in boneheads to whom it is entirely foreign.

Silver Duck

[KonaChick]

Unfortunately what we see a lot of is "weekend fever"...where people feel they have the right or just don't care when they act irresponsibly on the lake. This will NEVER go away it's just part of the equation. The least we can do is hand them a nice large TICKET and thank them for donating to the MP budget in the state of NH. PROPELLER thanks for that info about the course being acceptable from other states. Every time i read posts i learn something new...and isn't that what it's all about. Time to go enjoy the lake.

[John A. Birdsall]

I think that the Marine Patrol should hit with a good ticket everyone that is not following the 150' rule. It will be tough at first, but then people like us start talking and informing others that they are inforcing it. This in itself will do more for people than boaters education. and it will make our lake and our boating pleasure more enjoyable in the long run. can you imagine having your boat in Alton Bay after 10 watching the fireworks and with 1000, boats in the harbor able to get to Little Mark Island say in 15 minutes, no way possible b ut it is done, why cause nobody is inforcing the 150' rule. Enough said

[VarneyPoint]

Just want to ask a simple question to try to get a sampling of answers from my fellow boaters. What infraction bothers you more, violating the 150' rule or violating the right of way (right of passage) rule? For me personally, people who don't know or care not to follow the right of way rule burn me the most. The reason being is that it is cut and dry. There is zero ambiguity to this rule. One boat has the right of way, the other does not. It makes me so mad when another boat who does not have the right of way does not yield and then flips me off when I don't yield b/c I have the right of way. Just wondering what others think. Thoughts?

[Orion]

They are both pretty cut and dry so it's hard to pick one over the other as both concern safety. I'm equally bothered by either violation. But it's easier to accomodate an ignorant right of way violation by yielding somewhat to err on the safe side if it looks like the yielding boat is not yielding. Common courtesy would solve all, regardless of rules.

[AttitudeAdjuster]

Can anyone tell me if the USCG course I took will cover me, or do I still need to take the NH course.

[BroadHopper]

AA. You still need to take the NH course. I have taken the USCG couse and I founf it a valuable addition to the NH course. I ocassionally boat on the ocean and other states. The USCG course is a good catchall of general rules that everyone should follow.

VP. ROW is definitely on top. It is like playing chicken if the person who does not have right of way ignores it and you are at full throttle.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Random thoughts somewhat related to this topic.
If I ever cross your path and do something boneheaded, please know it was not deliberate.

If you and I are going to pass each other safely with less than 150 feet seperation and you don't slow down, I probably won't either. I also won't care.

Good thoughts Dave R. Everyone eventually has their turn at being a bonehead - its a good goal is to minimize the bonehead points that one earns and learn from your errors. Boating education is critical - and it can effectively be obtained via Chapman, online, santioned course, or handed down from a master. Renters should, and often do, require some sort of certification before renting a craft.

I fully agree with your thoughts of passing at less than 150' when both boats can safely pass each other and neither captain is concerned about the passage. Others who are calling for zero tolerance are apparently against this freedom, and that is too bad. There are times when it is fully safe to pass closer than 150' at speed, but since there is no commonly recognized signal of agreement, it is hard to know the other pilot's concerns. Perhaps a wave of hello while at 500 feet? When both pilots change direction in order to pass at optimum, yet distances below minimums, and especially if they wave ok to each other, its an $85 risk but worth considering.

A random observation came to me after reading this thread. Lake Winni seems to be less regulated than others, and many are saying other lakes are worse when it comes to craziness. Is there a correlation there? There is a value in an unregulated environment. If the Weirs channel is out of control, focus the efforts there. Remember the paradox; "If it gets too crowded, nobody will come".

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by VarneyPoint

Just want to ask a simple question to try to get a sampling of answers from my fellow boaters. What infraction bothers you more, violating the 150' rule or violating the right of way (right of passage) rule? ... Thoughts?

There is actually no "Right of way" on the water. That term is frequently used though in explaining the responsibilies between "Stand-On" or "Privileged" vs. "Give-Way" or "Burdenned" vessels.

There is a specific rule that may give the impression it is meant to protect fools from their own ignorance. It is known as the "General Prudence Rule" (Article 27 RoR). I'm working from an older copy of 'Chapman's" so it may have been re-written slightly in the most recent USCG publications but here's what I have...

"In obeying and construing the Rules of the Road, due regard must be given to all dangers of navigation and colision, and to any special circumstance that may render a departure from the Rules neccessary to avoid any immediate danger."

This is the clause that can give you partial liability if someone nails you while violating every other part of the Rules.

Now that I've blown some wind... To answer your question directly, 'right of way' errors are the ones I find most annoying too. Especially frustrating are the boats that zig when you zag to avoid them and then at the last minute zag back forcing you to zig.

[PROPELLER]

Broadhopper, I believe there are Coast Guard courses that NH accepts. I am certain there are courses in other states that NH approves of to obtain a certificate.

[PROPELLER]

http://www.nhboatingeducation.com/boatedla.html

According to this website any course that is NASBLA approved will be acceptable to the state of NH to receive a certificate. If you already have a certificate from any one of the 50 states that meets or exceeds NASBLA requirements, you are exempt from taking the NH course or test.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by VarneyPoint

Just want to ask a simple question to try to get a sampling of answers from my fellow boaters. What infraction bothers you more, violating the 150' rule or violating the right of way (right of passage) rule? For me personally, people who don't know or care not to follow the right of way rule burn me the most. The reason being is that it is cut and dry. There is zero ambiguity to this rule. One boat has the right of way, the other does not. It makes me so mad when another boat who does not have the right of way does not yield and then flips me off when I don't yield b/c I have the right of way. Just wondering what others think. Thoughts?

Violation of the RoW rule (proper name notwithstanding) bothers me much more than most 150' violations. Violating RoW is the analog of running the red light/stop sign. Other are expecting the rule to be followed and if it isn't there's a fair chance of collision (and near certain guarantee of consternation). With the 150' rule there are many circumstances where people violate it and it really doesn't bother me at all. One case might be a boat overhauling me. Should it pass 75' away I can't say that it bothers me, short of complete stupidity on either of our parts, no harm will come of it. There are other similar types of situations as well. Primarily if I think the other guy has his boat under control and won't collide with me (which is most of the time) I don't get too peeved about it. Where "the 150" must be followed is in regards to shoreline and non-moving boats, as there's a possibility of swimmers in the water. Just some thoughts ....

[Woodsy]

Boating navigation is pretty simple, and just requires you to remember a few simple rules...

1. If you are getting passed, you are the stand on boat. it is the other boats responsibility to pass you safely. However, while he is overtaking you, you are required to not make any sudden course corrections. It is recommended you hold steady on your course.

2. If a boat is passing from your port to starboard (left to right) he is the give way vessel. You are required to maintain course, he is supposed to navigate around you. At night you would see his GREEN light, (you go) and he your RED light (he stops)

3. If a boat is passing from your starboard to your port (right to left) You are the give way vessel. You are required to change course and navigate around the other boat. At night you would see his RED light, (you stop) and he your GREEN light (he goes)

An easy reminder I has as a kid was a couple of pieces of colored tape, red & green. all I had to do was look at the tape, to figure out what ROW rule applied.

4. Always yield to sailboat under sail or a less manueverable vessel (tugboat/barge)

5. You are responsible for safety of your boat at all times, regardless of the rules of navigation. When in doubt of the other boats intentions, change course, slow down or come to a complete stop. This rule trumps all of the above rules!

6. Do your best to stay 150' away from everything.... when in distance is in doubt, slow down.

I really don't see why people have such a hard time with the rules of navigation. They are pretty simple. I really think it boils down to a complete lack of education.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

While I'm all for mandatory safety training, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the on-line course vs. classroom training.

Knowledge is knowledge, however it's acquired. Anybody who really wants to learn the very, very basic info presented in the current boater certification material can easily do so using the on-line course. Boneheads aren't interested in being safe and courteous boaters and will do a "memory dump" as soon as they get their paper, however the material is presented! Or, at best, comply with the rules only when in sight of the MP and ignore them most of the time (which will not do much to alleviate the present situation, since the MP can't be everywhere at once!)

Neither presentation method can impart common courtesy and respect for others (which is learned in childhood or not at all), or the sound judgement and boat handling skills that are needed for safe boating and which come only through experience.

IMHO, what's sorely lacking lately is what I'll call a proper "skipper's attitude", where one accepts personal responsibility for safe operation. This attitude is what makes one want to have the proper safety gear, follow the nav rules, look out for the safety of nearby boats, learn the waters in which one will be boating, and above all else, think about the possible consequences of what one is about to do before doing it.

I learned it from my father (an ex-Coastie and Merchant Marine officer) as a boy, and have tried very hard to pass it on to my sons. Maybe the boating community can figure out a way to pass this attitude along to newbies through peer pressure. But no short course, no matter how it is presented, has a chance in heck of developing it in boneheads to whom it is entirely foreign.

Silver Duck

Good post ! I missed this one in the flurry of responses. As you said the question is how do "we" get "them" to buy into doing the "right thing" ? To some extent I believe that people will, and do, bone up for the boater's certificate and dump the knowledge later. It's my guess that a good instructor can make an impact of someone personally more often than an on-line course will but even this won't be effective anywhere near 100% of the time. I recall the very ineffective driving instruction videos (the blood, the gore) of my youth and constrast that with later instruction from Michelle at Bondurant's school. There are ways to get the message across but I'm not anything like a good teacher, who knows how to do it. Rules and fines have their place but I don't believe we'll punish our way into good boating. Perhaps when people get tired of driving like idiots on the roadways, they'll tire of the same on our waterways.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Boating navigation is pretty simple, and just requires you to remember a few simple rules...

1. If you are getting passed, you are the stand on boat. it is the other boats responsibility to pass you safely. However, while he is overtaking you, you are required to not make any sudden course corrections. It is recommended you hold steady on your course.

.

Woodsy,for this reason only,is why the 150 ft violation worries me much more than ROW.I almost always yield to any boat that has a chance of intersecting with my course.Maybe that's because I'm on a smaller craft( PWC) and figure I'm sometimes a target.I can see them coming so I can take corrective action.The yow-yow that overtook me Sunday at 40Mph+,30ft from my port side gave me no warning he was there.Thank God I didn't start to turn to the left.The reason we have 150 ft rule is for exactly a scenario I encountered.On roads we have lanes that we all must stay in.The water is one big canvas to head any direction we like.I am not the usual PWC rider that always going in circles and hard to figure out where they are going.Those riders actually bug the heck out of me cuz it's hard to judge what course to maintain.I always look over my shoulder before I change course abrutly but what if something was suddenly observed in front of me(log,swimmer) and I had to make a quick turn.I would have been toast.No,for me the 150 ft violation is scarier.

[Misty Blue]

Dear AA.

Thanks for the intro.

Broad Hopper is only partly correct when he states that you "need" to take the NH course. The USCG Auxiliary and the USPS courses are both NASBLA approved and accepted in all 50 states.

I think that what BH was leading to was that there are certain rules common only to NH waters, 150 safe passage rule, PWC rules, rafting rules, etc.

All USCG Aux instructors go through a rigorous training process that takes weeks, usually months to complete. All Auxiliary instructors in NH ( I asume USPS instructors as well) have had to attend classes dealing with local NH rules. If you take a class out of state they will not give you this information. However if you take a class in NH and go to Florida you will be responsible to become aware of the local rules.

Again, I am planning a class soon. Drop me a line and you will not be disappointed.

Misty Blue.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Woodsy,for this reason only,is why the 150 ft violation worries me much more than ROW.I almost always yield to any boat that has a chance of intersecting with my course.Maybe that's because I'm on a smaller craft( PWC) and figure I'm sometimes a target.I can see them coming so I can take corrective action.

Sorry to take issue with this but it's something that drives me nuts. As the "stand on" vessel, you are required to maintain course and speed if you can do so safely. When you yeild where you are not required to, you may be aggravating those of us who try to follow the rules by screwing up our plans to avoid you. I don't mean to imply that you should stand on right until the point of impact though...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Good thoughts Dave R. Everyone eventually has their turn at being a bonehead - its a good goal is to minimize the bonehead points that one earns and learn from your errors. Boating education is critical - and it can effectively be obtained via Chapman, online, santioned course, or handed down from a master. Renters should, and often do, require some sort of certification before renting a craft.

I fully agree with your thoughts of passing at less than 150' when both boats can safely pass each other and neither captain is concerned about the passage. Others who are calling for zero tolerance are apparently against this freedom, and that is too bad. There are times when it is fully safe to pass closer than 150' at speed, but since there is no commonly recognized signal of agreement, it is hard to know the other pilot's concerns. Perhaps a wave of hello while at 500 feet? When both pilots change direction in order to pass at optimum, yet distances below minimums, and especially if they wave ok to each other, its an $85 risk but worth considering.

A random observation came to me after reading this thread. Lake Winni seems to be less regulated than others, and many are saying other lakes are worse when it comes to craziness. Is there a correlation there? There is a value in an unregulated environment. If the Weirs channel is out of control, focus the efforts there. Remember the paradox; "If it gets too crowded, nobody will come".

Glad to see I am not the only one that feels this way.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Sorry to take issue with this but it's something that drives me nuts. As the "stand on" vessel, you are required to maintain course and speed if you can do so safely. When you yeild where you are not required to, you may be aggravating those of us who try to follow the rules by screwing up our plans to avoid you. I don't mean to imply that you should stand on right until the point of impact though...

Dave,I understand why we have stand on vessels and give way vessels.When two vessels are approaching each other we need a system to avoid collision or conflict.However.try crossing from Glendale to Timber on a busy Saturday with big boats coming at you from both sides at full speed in a little PWC,knowing how so many people feel about PWC's and how often boating rules are ignored and see if you feel comfortable maintaining your speed and course.When boats are coming from port and starboard I have to yield to the starboard vessel anyway.It's a little scary trying to thread the needle between intersecting craft and hope they see you or will abide by rules of navigation when your on a 10ft boat.When I yield,I am 1000 ft or more from any of these scenarios.I am not altering their course at all.In fact,I'm pretty sure I have not even become part of the other vessels equation.What is so wrong with me slowing down and yielding to other boats?Why would this "drive you so nuts" and why would you be "so aggravatted and screwed up"?You don't have to avoid me cuz I'm staying way out of the conflict.I want to stay as far away from "aggravated screwed up people who are driven nuts" as I can which is precisely my point.Sorry, I'll always err on the side of caution.

[BroadHopper]

I have to agree agree with SS. Even in a 21' boat the ride from Glendale to Timber can be frightning. It is like crossing 93 on foot during rush hour. I know these boaters are seasoned skippers otherwise 'The Wirches' will claim a fair share. Maybe the MP should sit here rather then remote places where there are no traffic.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Dave,I understand why we have stand on vessels and give way vessels.When two vessels are approaching each other we need a system to avoid collision or conflict.However.try crossing from Glendale to Timber on a busy Saturday with big boats coming at you from both sides at full speed in a little PWC,knowing how so many people feel about PWC's and how often boating rules are ignored and see if you feel comfortable maintaining your speed and course.When boats are coming from port and starboard I have to yield to the starboard vessel anyway.It's a little scary trying to thread the needle between intersecting craft and hope they see you or will abide by rules of navigation when your on a 10ft boat.When I yield,I am 1000 ft or more from any of these scenarios.I am not altering their course at all.In fact,I'm pretty sure I have not even become part of the other vessels equation.What is so wrong with me slowing down and yielding to other boats?Why would this "drive you so nuts" and why would you be "so aggravatted and screwed up"?You don't have to avoid me cuz I'm staying way out of the conflict.I want to stay as far away from "aggravated screwed up people who are driven nuts" as I can which is precisely my point.Sorry, I'll always err on the side of caution.

This is a vastly different scenario than stated on your original post on the subject. My aggravation is with folks 200 feet off my bow who suddenly slow while they are right in my intended path that I just altered to pass safely behind them had they maintained speed and course. My observsations are that PWCs are the worst offenders in this regard. They force me to either alter course more severely to pass behind them or alter course to "cut them off", so to speak. Happens all the time. I have even tried to alter course way ahead of time and found that the PWCs are suddenly doing doughnuts, U- turns, or are idling motionlessly waiting for me to pass so they can jump my wake. I find that it's easiest just ignore them until I am quite near because it's impossible to predict what they'll do next. I think this is where you and I suffer a disconnect. I can FULLY understand why you do what you do. I bet most boat operators have the same problems and solutions with PWC operators who also have developed their own solutions for the problem of boaters who are ignoring them.

If you are trying to cross from Glendale to Timber Island during busy times, you have my sympathy. My recommendation would be to merge with traffic going 90 degrees from your intended course and tack once to get where you are going as safely as possible. This is what cross traffic has to do in busy, foggy places like the English Channel and it works very well.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Woodsy,for this reason only,is why the 150 ft violation worries me much more than ROW...

The yo-yo that overtook me Sunday at 40Mph+,30ft from my port side gave me no warning he was there.Thank God I didn't start to turn to the left.The reason we have 150 ft rule is for exactly a scenario I encountered...

I am not the usual PWC rider that always going in circles and hard to figure out where they are going.Those riders actually bug the heck out of me cuz it's hard to judge what course to maintain.I always look over my shoulder before I change course abruptly.

No,for me the 150 ft violation is scarier.

SIKSUKR...We agree!

As one who spends most of the time having the RoW (sailing), boaters who choose to yield at 150-feet are worrisome. Nowadays, there can be only 1½ seconds to cross 150-feet. I signal a warning at about 500-600 feet distance.

I've noticed that some Jet-Skis have rearview mirrors. Perhaps you could consider a retrofit.

(Unless you "do circles" — then you might get dizzy).

[SIKSUKR]

There's nothing "vastly different" in my second post.I said I almost always yield to other boats.Why is that such a problem for you?Would you rather have it the other way?I'm being extra carefull.I can't believe you have an issue with someone thinking safety first.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

There's nothing "vastly different" in my second post.I said I almost always yield to other boats.Why is that such a problem for you?Would you rather have it the other way?I'm being extra carefull.I can't believe you have an issue with someone thinking safety first.

I apologize for being so abrupt in my original response. It was uncalled for. It really does not make me all that aggravated nor does it really drive me nuts. I thought my second response was a bit nicer. I have not been myself this week.

I think things would be better if everyone followed the "stand on" and "give way" guidelines. That's all. If everyone did this, no one would have to worry because it works. I also think things would be better if there were no known diseases and no one ever made mistakes too...

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

{snip} When I yield,I am 1000 ft or more from any of these scenarios.I am not altering their course at all.In fact,I'm pretty sure I have not even become part of the other vessels equation. {snip}

This raises an interesting question for all boaters, that is when (time before or distance from collision) do you decide that the give way vessel isn't going to give way according to the RoW rules and take action yourself ? Also when (time before or distance from collision) do you take action when you're the give way vessel ? I guess that's 2 questions. It's probably too hard to describe a general rule that covers every situation and accounts for all traffic scenarios so lets limit it to a simple 2 boat, 90 degree encounter.

As I type these questions I'm trying to recall last weekend where a boat (2 actually) were coming from btw Diamond and Rattlesnake as I was returning to Alton. I was tracking them and lost the lead boat in the glare off my windsheild. When I stood up he hadn't altered either course nor speed and I watched a bit more and then pulled backed on the throttle just a moment before he did. He slowed and I went back to speed. I'm going to estimate I throttled back maybe 5+ secs (240+ ft at my typical speed) before collision. On the other hand when I've turned to starboard or slowed to give way, I can generally count at least 10 secs btw when I sight him in front of me and when I cross his wake.

[gtxrider]

1. How is it possible to rent a boat or jetski without being certified? Would AVIS rent a car to a person with no license?

2. If we see a person violating the law should we notify the MP?


I just got back from two great weeks but I saw a few jerks riding boats and jetskis. I know that some of the jetski riders were under age or have no certification. In one case the Mount laid on the HORN when one kid was running around the Mount while passing Sandy Point (not a lot a room in the channel there).
Yeah the Mount always gives the horn a short blast at the Point but this toot was early and LLLLOOONNNNGGGG.

PS, its a Yellow and Silver Sea Doo keep a look out in Alton Bay!!!!

MAC, My brain hurts.....

[SBC]

Originally Posted by gtxrider

1. How is it possible to rent a boat or jetski without being certified? Would AVIS rent a car to a person with no license?

2. If we see a person violating the law should we notify the MP?

1. This year, if you are between the ages of 16 & 38, inclusive, you need a state approved NASBLA certification to operate any boat over 25hp. Under 16-no operation of that rented PWC (typically > 90hp). Sure they give a short course and a temporary license at the rental place but how much attention do you think a person pays when they are itching to feel the power between their legs and the splash in their face?

2. Would you report a vehicle doing doughnuts on your street? How about that motorcycle speeding past your child's school? What if a truck swerved at you while you were riding your bicycle? It's no different if it's a boat, jet-ski or lake boat.

If you see someone jeapordizing the safety of others then you have every right to report it to the authorities to protect you and others on your street/waterway.

Your choice...

[KonaChick]

SBC..I thought the rule was if you're under 16, you can operate anything over 25hp as long as there was someone on board who was over 16 and had completed the safety course. You state under 16-no operation. Is this just a rule for renters of pwc's?? Thanks!

[SBC]

KonaChick,

Yes, over 16 and have passed the course-go for it. If there is a certificate holding adult on-board the same vessel any companion non-certified person can operate over 25hp.

I don't think any rental place would assume the liabilty associated with rental to anyone under 16.

I don't think I would let an six-seven-eight year old drive anything except a row or paddle boat without supervision though. Just common parental sense and knowing the responsibility level of the child.