Backup Heat sources ?

[bigdog]

Looking for some suggestions from the Forum about backup heat sources for my Condo.

Currently have oil heat, by forced hot water. Furnace is 20+ years, and have made MANY parts replacements. Concerned when I am away for sometiems days at a time, that furnace will go out. I know about 'freeze alarms' and they're all well and good, but looking at a backup heat source for the condo.
Possibly a Monitor heater?

On that note, do they make monitor heaters that runs on propane? I know what you're saying.... 'You already have the oil tank in place, to deliver Kerosene, use that for Monitor heater source' !
Looking to steer away from oil, if possible?

Thanks,
Bigdog

[tummyman]

I would stay away from Kero....I am changing from Kero to #2 oil this summer because of the prices, although it wil require me to move my tank, etc. etc. Kero is very expensive and is getting harder to find from suppliers.....see below for info. I think your very best bet is to change out the boiler. I have a Biasi made in Italy that is a three pass design. I find it very economical due to the technology in the boiler. You need to look at all the new "Three Pass" boiler designs.

Here are some interesting heating things to ponder on a cold winter night....first of all, some assumptions:
1. Electric - 1 KWH = 3413 btu's and is 100% efficient. Cost per KWH= $.20
2. Propane - 1 gallon = 91600 btu's and most furnaces run at 90+% efficiency. Cost per gallon = $3.64
3. #1 Heating oil (Kerosene) - 1 gallon = 135,000 btu's and modern furnaces run at 85% efficiency Cost per gallon = $3.60
4. #2 Heating oil - 1 gallon = 138,000 btu's and modern furnaces run at 85% efficiency - Cost per gallon = $3.25
5. Wood Pellets - 1 ton = 16,500,000 btu's...I have no idea at what efficiency they run, but there is heat loss up the chimney. So I will assume 80% efficiency. Cost per ton = $300/ton
6. Cured wood - 1 cord = 20,000,000 btu's..efficiency varies by stove. But a modern catalytic stove could get 75% efficiency. Cost per cord = $300/cord

Now the math...I'll benchmark everything to #2 oil btu's = 138,000

Electric = 138,000/3413 = 40.43*$.20 =$8.086 to generate same number of btu's as #2 oil.
Propane = 138,000/91600 = 1.5066/.90efficiency = 1.674*$3.64=$6.09
Kerosene = 138,000/135,000=1.022/.85efficiency=1.202*$3.60=$4.33
#2 Oil = 138,000/138000=1/.85efficiency= 1.176*$3.25=$3.82
Wood Pellets = 138,000/16,500,000=.00836/.8=.0105*$300=$3.15 but excludes electricity costs to run appliance which would increase cost slightly
Cured Wood = 138,000/20,000,000=.0069/.75=.0092*$300=$2.76

In summary, to generate the same btu's (138,000), following is the rough costs:
Electricity - $8.09
Propane - $6.09
Kerosene - $4.33
#2 Oil - $3.82
Wood Pellets - $3.15
Cured Wood - $2.76

Of all the options for your back-up, you can see that Kero would cost you 14% more ALL year around and Propane is almost 60% more as a back-up fuel. Also, Propane may be going higher in cost as Europe is using more and effecting the supplies here in the US.

Ok...am I crazy? I think these numbers are reasonably correct, but would like to see if others come up with similar results. There are lots of variables...relative efficiency of appliances and market prices of various commodities all factor into any calculation. And all calculations exclude annual maintenance costs of equipment. But it is an interesting analysis and you can adjust the numbers to any data you think is more representative.

[bigdog]

Thanks Tummyman, for running all these numbers, it was a great deal of work, much appreciated !

Kero in current 275 gal tank would be considerably more each year, versus staying with #2 oil.

All this said, it looks like I'd be better off just buying a good old-fashion wood stove ! In may case I have a fireplace, which as everyone knows is VERY inefficient ! May look at a fireplace insert, maybe 'pellet' the way to go?
Especially, when you think of handling all the wood, stacking, etc.

Gee, going back to wood ! Looks like were resorting back to stone-age technologies again.....

Thanks again for all the information, will take all into consideration when making final decision.

BD

[Argie's Wife]

Tummyman - we went thru a similar exercise in math as what you posted (and I'm married to a mathematician...) and our findings were similar. We found that we weren't as bad off with #2 oil as we thought we were, even when prices rocketed upwards.

Rather than a secondary heat source, we opted to tighten up the house - extra insulation, thermal curtains on the windows, thermal film on the window panes, caulking the cracks and leaks... you get the idea. It was a small investment that's paid off nicely and all things we were able to do ourselves...

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by tummyman

I would stay away from Kero....I am changing from Kero to #2 oil this summer because of the prices, although it wil require me to move my tank, etc. etc. Kero is very expensive and is getting harder to find from suppliers.....see below for info. I think your very best bet is to change out the boiler. I have a Biasi made in Italy that is a three pass design. I find it very economical due to the technology in the boiler. You need to look at all the new "Three Pass" boiler designs.

Here are some interesting heating things to ponder on a cold winter night....first of all, some assumptions:
1. Electric - 1 KWH = 3413 btu's and is 100% efficient. Cost per KWH= $.20
2. Propane - 1 gallon = 91600 btu's and most furnaces run at 90+% efficiency. Cost per gallon = $3.64
3. #1 Heating oil (Kerosene) - 1 gallon = 135,000 btu's and modern furnaces run at 85% efficiency Cost per gallon = $3.60
4. #2 Heating oil - 1 gallon = 138,000 btu's and modern furnaces run at 85% efficiency - Cost per gallon = $3.25
5. Wood Pellets - 1 ton = 16,500,000 btu's...I have no idea at what efficiency they run, but there is heat loss up the chimney. So I will assume 80% efficiency. Cost per ton = $300/ton
6. Cured wood - 1 cord = 20,000,000 btu's..efficiency varies by stove. But a modern catalytic stove could get 75% efficiency. Cost per cord = $300/cord

Now the math...I'll benchmark everything to #2 oil btu's = 138,000

Electric = 138,000/3413 = 40.43*$.20 =$8.086 to generate same number of btu's as #2 oil.
Propane = 138,000/91600 = 1.5066/.90efficiency = 1.674*$3.64=$6.09
Kerosene = 138,000/135,000=1.022/.85efficiency=1.202*$3.60=$4.33
#2 Oil = 138,000/138000=1/.85efficiency= 1.176*$3.25=$3.82
Wood Pellets = 138,000/16,500,000=.00836/.8=.0105*$300=$3.15 but excludes electricity costs to run appliance which would increase cost slightly
Cured Wood = 138,000/20,000,000=.0069/.75=.0092*$300=$2.76

In summary, to generate the same btu's (138,000), following is the rough costs:
Electricity - $8.09
Propane - $6.09
Kerosene - $4.33
#2 Oil - $3.82
Wood Pellets - $3.15
Cured Wood - $2.76

Of all the options for your back-up, you can see that Kero would cost you 14% more ALL year around and Propane is almost 60% more as a back-up fuel. Also, Propane may be going higher in cost as Europe is using more and effecting the supplies here in the US.

Ok...am I crazy? I think these numbers are reasonably correct, but would like to see if others come up with similar results. There are lots of variables...relative efficiency of appliances and market prices of various commodities all factor into any calculation. And all calculations exclude annual maintenance costs of equipment. But it is an interesting analysis and you can adjust the numbers to any data you think is more representative.

I'm not going to take issue with any of your assumptions and reasoning as set out above other than to tell you that premium wood pellets can be had for much less than the $300/ton which makes that option a bit more viable. I just purchased my next years supply of pellets for $168/ton. The average pellet price is somewhere between $200-$250 per ton.

This link provides a cost comparison calculator (per million BTUs) for comparing the various fuels above. You can enter in your own info based on what you are paying locally.

http://pelletheat.org/pellets/compare-fuel-costs/

BT

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Tummyman,

You're using outdated numbers, as of June 14, 2010 the DOE change to the new B2 blend for#2 fuel oil which has a BTU/gal. 125,000/gal. and in 2013 they will switch to B3 blend which will be 115,000/gal. and the current price is actually @ $3.489n here in NH.

Another factor is: fixed firing rate verses stepped firing or even more efficient full modulating. Your facts and figures are bias and slanted toward the way you want them to be and do not represent and accurate picture.

[tummyman]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

Tummyman,

You're using outdated numbers, as of June 14, 2010 the DOE change to the new B2 blend for#2 fuel oil which has a BTU/gal. 125,000/gal. and in 2013 they will switch to B3 blend which will be 115,000/gal. and the current price is actually @ $3.489n here in NH.

Another factor is: fixed firing rate verses stepped firing or even more efficient full modulating. Your facts and figures are bias and slanted toward the way you want them to be and do not represent and accurate picture.

Your facts are incorrect and I take strong offense to your assertion that my facts and figures are "biased and slanted towards the way I want them and do not represent an() accurate picture". As a matter of fact, YOUR facts are wrong. The cost of #2 oil, as shown in today's Laconia Daily Sun, page one, bottom left corner from Fullers is $3.299....not $3.489 as YOU asserted. Looks like you are getting taken if you are paying $3.489. Second, I used $3.25 in my analysis, which seems to be much more accurate than your $3.489....who is being more biased? I was really trying to be helpful to people in my analysis and specifically stated that if there was more accurate data available, then use it. But do not accuse me of being BIASED and SLANTING an analysis. YOU are WRONG in your posted offensive assertion and I am owed an apology.

If the current BTU's for #2 oil are 125,000, then I accept the correction and thank you for your input. I did research the BTU's on line and did not find that number previously. I..and others, would be interested in seeing your comparative calculations posted if you have better data that represents typical heating equipment generally used by consumers.

In closing, your posted accusations to me personally are not appreciated. Let's ALL try to live to a higher standard of common courtesy and respect to forum members.

[lawn psycho]

I have a cold-start Buderus 5-section boiler with SuperStore Stainless tank. The boiler is also equipped with an "outdoor reset. This means that rather than my boiler always staying at 180F, it modules since the hot water tank is the heat storage. It also means that when it's 45F outside that the boiler doesn't need the full 180F heat.

A well insulated house, tight windows, and good quality furnace is where to start as the fuel price differences between gas/oil usually wash each other out in my experience. If you have natural gas piped into your house like is prevalent down south, that is usually cheaper. The goal is to need less of whatever fuel you need to save $......

My time is worth something so wood is out for me as the primary heat source.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

Tummyman,

You're using outdated numbers, as of June 14, 2010 the DOE change to the new B2 blend for#2 fuel oil which has a BTU/gal. 125,000/gal. and in 2013 they will switch to B3 blend which will be 115,000/gal. and the current price is actually @ $3.489n here in NH.

Another factor is: fixed firing rate verses stepped firing or even more efficient full modulating. Your facts and figures are bias and slanted toward the way you want them to be and do not represent and accurate picture.

Hmmm, I think that tummyman was simply providing data and asking for others to adjust the numbers as appropriate. In another thread I thanked him for his effort and offered updated pellet stove data.

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Originally Posted by tummyman

Your facts are incorrect and I take strong offense to your assertion that my facts and figures are "biased and slanted towards the way I want them and do not represent an() accurate picture". As a matter of fact, YOUR facts are wrong. The cost of #2 oil, as shown in today's Laconia Daily Sun, page one, bottom left corner from Fullers is $3.299....not $3.489 as YOU asserted. Looks like you are getting taken if you are paying $3.489. Second, I used $3.25 in my analysis, which seems to be much more accurate than your $3.489....who is being more biased? I was really trying to be helpful to people in my analysis and specifically stated that if there was more accurate data available, then use it. But do not accuse me of being BIASED and SLANTING an analysis. YOU are WRONG in your posted offensive assertion and I am owed an apology.

Of course you're right... how foolish of me to doubt you? I bow to your suppior knowledge. After all what would a stupid bottom dweller know?

Here is where I got my bogus information:
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_...RS_dpgal_w.htm

[MarkinNH]

Per Fuller Oil's website the lower price per gallon is for the 10 Day Discount That price as of today is $3.299
I think if it were me, I would want to do my calculations with the $3.489 since that would give me a more realistic worse case scenerio cost.
It would also give a person a better idea of next winters cost because you know darn well prices even for the 10 day discount are going to go up by next winter.

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

Hmmm, I think that tummyman was simply providing data and asking for others to adjust the numbers as appropriate. In another thread I thanked him for his effort and offered updated pellet stove data.

I did the same thing above. Your pricing is a more accurate average. I just had to jump on the pellet price war and got my 3 tons for next year at the $168/ton referenced above.

BT

[Argie's Wife]

Maybe the best backup heat source is a heated debate on the forum....

Everyone should be toastee-warm now...

[wifi]

Back to the original posters question on what to do if their main (older) furnace quits when they are not around, and what is a good backup.

As a backup, I assume you are not totally concerned as long as its a reasonable fuel cost. Not sure if you have nat gas or propane available, or the layout of your condo, but I use a Mr Heater Blue Flame heater with a fan as a backup/supplemental when the coal stove doesn't supply enough heat for the -20 temps. It has no flue, easy to install, mounts to the wall, and, no matter how someone mocks, its well.... backup. Kero Monitors (I have friends with them) are nice too.

[tis]

The best backup is a generator that keeps the heat on!

[Cal]

This may be considered more of supplemental heat but I purchased it in 1984, got a federal 40% tax credit on the purchase price and it only requires electric equal to a 60 watt light bulb to operate and produce hot air heat. Was up on the roof last fall making sure all the hardware was tight.
Has MORE that paid for itself and saved me plenty ( 3, 4x8 panels)

[kauriel]

If you are concerned about your furnace failing due to mechanical issues you can setup electrical heaters in key places (e.g., near kitchen pipes) that are designed to kick in if temperature drops too low. The Delonghi Safeheat model can be set to run if temperature drops below 44 degrees.

I bought this to warm up my chilly living room and was surprised to learn that it can be setup to automatically turn on if house gets too cold!!! Only catch is that you need to have electricity for it to work!

http://www.amazon.com/DeLonghi-DFH13...7311475&sr=8-2

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Cal

This may be considered more of supplemental heat but I purchased it in 1984, got a federal 40% tax credit on the purchase price and it only requires electric equal to a 60 watt light bulb to operate and produce hot air heat. Was up on the roof last fall making sure all the hardware was tight.
Has MORE that paid for itself and saved me plenty ( 3, 4x8 panels)

Cal,you should have turn your house a little so the panels looked more symetrical.

[fatlazyless]

With the high price for propane, I'm thinking of switching from a Rinnai propane to a Toyotomi oil and would probably install it myself over the summer. Where to go locally to go window shopping Toyotomi to find some discontinued five year old model, direct vent, 30,000 btu room heater, or something like that?

My Rinnai has been faultless what with never not working perfectly in about 15-years, or ever needing any service. Most likley, a Toyotomi would need to get a yearly cleaning or something because it burns either oil or kerosene or a mixture.

Is there a Totyotomi dealer set up someplace local where I can go take a look-see and ask lots of questions before searching on Craigslist for somebody's used Toyotomi, or something like that at the Saint Vincent De Paul Plumbing and Heating oopsie-doopsie, we changed our mind store?

Say....guess what...both Rinnai and Toyotomi are Japanese companies and make extremely efficient use of propane or oil, while the big American company, Empire Comfort Systems used to build propane units that were big, fat, propane fuel hogs. Maybe Empire has finally changed their way, and copycatted its' competition at Rinnai......have no clue?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Cal,you should have turn your house a little so the panels looked more symetrical.

I whole heartedly agree but at my location the company said they had to be 10* west of south and tilted at 58* to gather the most sun when there is the least sun. Personally I would have went for a little later when the average temp is lower.
Right now it's 27* and the gas heat hasn't been on since about 930 am this morning.
Left is gas, right is solar
The good part is the panels are on the back side of the house. From the street, all you see is the peak sticking up

[SAMIAM]

Did I just dream of it.......or has someone developed a roofing material that also acts as solar panels?
Many homes in Flroida have the panels flat on the roof so you barely notice them.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Did I just dream of it.......or has someone developed a roofing material that also acts as solar panels?
Many homes in Flroida have the panels flat on the roof so you barely notice them.

That would be GREAT. I believe electric panels are more forgiving as to installation. Mine produce hot air and work better with more direct exposure.

[tis]

I don't think you dreamed it Samiam. I think it is true.

[fpartri497]

four years ago I purchaced a propane fireplace Insert only to find that its too expensive to run very much. I emptied the 250 gal tank in 6 days at $3.89 per gal.

Evger since then I only run it 15 min. In the morning. every day. So I just keep heating with $3.29.9 gal Oil. this is so far the most expensivewinter ever for fuel.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Did I just dream of it.......or has someone developed a roofing material that also acts as solar panels?
Many homes in Flroida have the panels flat on the roof so you barely notice them.

Hi Samiam. You got my curiosity up. Here's the links I got on Google. Looks really interesting. I just wonder how well they would survive in snow and ice, or in a hail area.
I guess your house would have to be situated in almost a perfect alignment to take max advantage of the solar energy being gathered.

[trfour]

I am working on some sun deflectors, so as you don't need to relocate you house.

Get back to me, if I find out.

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

Hi Samiam. You got my curiosity up. Here's the links I got on Google. Looks really interesting. I just wonder how well they would survive in snow and ice, or in a hail area.
I guess your house would have to be situated in almost a perfect alignment to take max advantage of the solar energy being gathered.

I got to be careful here, I'm sure someone going to take it the wrong way too... But, you need to make a trip down to Flag Hill Winery in Lee, NH. When Frank was getting ready to build his Vodka distillery, he asked me to bid on connecting his new roof to the DHW system. Not that I'm into roofing per-say, but this roof had PEX tubing integrated into the steel sheeting making it a big solar collector. I was intrigued with the project, but was already committed on another project and had to decline.

From what I hear the project was a real success and when you drive by and look at the building you'd never know its solar heat source. It’s the shed roof on the south side of the building... I hear the vodka is real good too.

[sky's]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

I have a cold-start Buderus 5-section boiler with SuperStore Stainless tank. The boiler is also equipped with an "outdoor reset. This means that rather than my boiler always staying at 180F, it modules since the hot water tank is the heat storage. It also means that when it's 45F outside that the boiler doesn't need the full 180F heat.

A well insulated house, tight windows, and good quality furnace is where to start as the fuel price differences between gas/oil usually wash each other out in my experience. If you have natural gas piped into your house like is prevalent down south, that is usually cheaper. The goal is to need less of whatever fuel you need to save $......

My time is worth something so wood is out for me as the primary heat source.

Lawn Psycho, thats exactly what i want to put in my house we are approx. 2600sq ft we currently have a Marathon for hot water but my heating guy rec. the same boiler with a air handler to also accomadate central air did you opt for that option also? just curious if you don't mind me asking 2 questions any idea how much oil you saved after switching to the Budreus? and about how much for the system?? thanks

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by tummyman

In summary, to generate the same btu's (138,000), following is the rough costs:
Electricity - $8.09
Propane - $6.09
Kerosene - $4.33
#2 Oil - $3.82
Wood Pellets - $3.15
Cured Wood - $2.76

"What should I use as backup when my primary source goes out and I'm not home"? Not as a replacement -- as a backup. And the key phrase is "when I'm not home".

• Electricity - $8.09 - Easy and inexpensive to install. Can purchase and use separate, standalone, very safe units in strategic locations around the house, as another forum member suggested. Can be run on thermostats. Problem is -- if the electricity goes, it's not much of a backup, is it?
• Propane - $6.09 - Not as easy as Electricity to install. And the equipment is likely to be more expensive, too. But once installed, can easily be controlled via a $39 thermostat that runs on a AA battery that only needs to be replaced once a year. Propane can be used even if the electricity goes out.
• Kerosene - $4.33 - Expensive to install. Requires electricity to run, though, which eliminates it as a backup.
• #2 Oil - $3.82 - Expensive to install. Requires electricity to run, which eliminates it as a backup.
• Wood Pellets - $3.15 - Can't be used as a backup at all if you're not home.
• Cured Wood - $2.76 - Can't be used as a backup at all if you're not home.

Conclusion - Propane is the only viable backup, here. You can get a gas insert for your fireplace, or some other device relatively cheaply, and can successfully install and vent it. Once done, it will cost you very little to use it as a backup unit. And it will keep the house warm enough to prevent freezing pipes. As long as you replace the thermostat battery at the beginning of each season, you never have to be home. You can call the gas company to re-fill it. And it you are only using it as a backup in case your main system fails, the higher unit fuel costs won't break the bank. BTW, I use propane as backup.

[upthesaukee]

This n that: I understand a battery backup thermostat to hold settings in the event of a power failure.

With whatever propane equipment you use for backup heat, what is the ignition source to ignite the propane?

Can you tell this is why I call the furnace guy when I have a problem?

thanks

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

This n that: I understand a battery backup thermostat to hold settings in the event of a power failure.

With whatever propane equipment you use for backup heat, what is the ignition source to ignite the propane?

Can you tell this is why I call the furnace guy when I have a problem?

thanks

Sorry to butt in, but I can answer that as I have a propane stove in my camp. The pilot is lit with the same type of piezoelectric actuator push button thing a ma jig you have on your outdoor grill. I leave my pilot running year round. The thermostat uses simple AA batteries.

Being on an island and realizing the power could go out for extended periods is why I went with propane as back up and really glad I did!!

Dan

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Sorry to butt in, but I can answer that as I have a propane stove in my camp. The pilot is lit with the same type of piezoelectric actuator push button thing a ma jig you have on your outdoor grill. I leave my pilot running year round. The thermostat uses simple AA batteries.

The key is to have a pilot light, and to keep it on. I only keep mine on in the winter months (you know, from September through July) -- but the pilot light really doesn't use a lot of gas. When I'm not home, I set the primary heat source for operation at 45-50 degrees; and the propane thermostat is set to kick on at 42 degrees. That's plenty to keep things from freezing up. Any vented gas unit or fireplace insert has this feature (although some don't use a thermostat, so beware when you buy). Some even come with blowers, so if you have electricity, you can circulate the heat more effentially. However, the blower isn't really necessary.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by wifi

As a backup, I assume you are not totally concerned as long as its a reasonable fuel cost. Not sure if you have nat gas or propane available, or the layout of your condo, but I use a Mr Heater Blue Flame heater with a fan as a backup/supplemental when the coal stove doesn't supply enough heat for the -20 temps. It has no flue, easy to install, mounts to the wall, and, no matter how someone mocks, its well.... backup. Kero Monitors (I have friends with them) are nice too.

The manufacturer says these will run for a day or so. In that case, it wouldn't work as a backup if the power is out for a long duration, or if the main heat source fails completely. You'd have to make sure to be on-site within 24 hours of the failure, which is real limiting if you have to be away for days, isn't it?