Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Winnipesaukee Forums > Boating
Home Forums Gallery Blogs YouTube Channel Classifieds Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-25-2022, 11:42 AM   #1
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 468
Thanked 563 Times in 276 Posts
Default Cost of fuel...

It's going to be interesting to see what effect high fuel costs will have on boating this summer. The demand for boats last year, combined with people taking local vacations, made the lake traffic busy.
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is offline  
Old 01-25-2022, 11:55 AM   #2
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 3,358
Thanks: 982
Thanked 1,264 Times in 802 Posts
Default Fill'er up

I filled the tanks last October, should be good for most of 2022 until time to fill again. Regardless of price, fuel is a small part of the total cost of running my boat.
Descant is offline  
Old 01-25-2022, 03:40 PM   #3
BoatHouse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 116
Thanks: 223
Thanked 43 Times in 25 Posts
Default

I believe the Ave price for Summer 2021 on the lake was $3.89 - $3.99. Given the gas prices have risen about $0.25/gallon since early October, we are looking at $4.25 per gallon for Summer 2022. That is if gas prices stay flat.

If the ave price for gas on the lake is $4.25, I do not see people dumping their boats.

Maybe if the price goes above $5.00 things will be different.

IFF there are no geopolitical incidents, I believe there is actually a good chance the price will go down slightly by summer as US oil production continues to increase.
BoatHouse is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to BoatHouse For This Useful Post:
Boatbottom952 (03-07-2022)
Old 01-25-2022, 05:36 PM   #4
NH.Solar
Senior Member
 
NH.Solar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton
Posts: 171
Thanks: 31
Thanked 100 Times in 54 Posts
Default

If the situation in the Ukraine does blow up, the lake will be again a very quiet and peaceful place. $5 a gallon this summer? or maybe even more??
__________________
Peter
NH Solar
NH.Solar is offline  
Old 01-25-2022, 06:26 PM   #5
tbonies
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Anchorage, Al
Posts: 136
Thanks: 51
Thanked 59 Times in 30 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysanfran View Post
It's going to be interesting to see what effect high fuel costs will have on boating this summer. The demand for boats last year, combined with people taking local vacations, made the lake traffic busy.
If a person who owns a boat bases usage on how much fuel costs, should that person REALLY have a boat?
tbonies is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to tbonies For This Useful Post:
ACME on the Broads (02-02-2022), swnoel (02-02-2022), TheRoBoat (01-25-2022)
Sponsored Links
Old 01-25-2022, 06:58 PM   #6
camp guy
Senior Member
 
camp guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro
Posts: 1,017
Thanks: 246
Thanked 392 Times in 237 Posts
Default Cost of fuel

Are you paraphrasing "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" ?
camp guy is offline  
Old 01-26-2022, 11:12 AM   #7
codeman671
Senior Member
 
codeman671's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,954
Thanks: 155
Thanked 578 Times in 353 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH.Solar View Post
If the situation in the Ukraine does blow up, the lake will be again a very quiet and peaceful place. $5 a gallon this summer? or maybe even more??
People are tired of being cooped up and hiding from covid. I don't think $5.00 per gallon gas will quiet things down. For me? Not at all. I might tell the kids to take it a bit easier on the jet skis, or make them haul it from the gas station instead of filling at the marinas, but it won't change my summer.
codeman671 is offline  
Old 01-26-2022, 12:11 PM   #8
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 468
Thanked 563 Times in 276 Posts
Default

Obviously the answer depends on how much one uses their boat. A tank of gas will last me quite a while. My neighbor spends several hours every day... pulling water skiers. Back-and-forth...forth-and-back...from left-to-right...right-to-left...

The cost won't affect me much....But I'm thinking my neighbor will reset the day's schedule a bit.
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is offline  
Old 01-26-2022, 09:56 PM   #9
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codeman671 View Post
People are tired of being cooped up and hiding from covid. I don't think $5.00 per gallon gas will quiet things down. For me? Not at all. I might tell the kids to take it a bit easier on the jet skis, or make them haul it from the gas station instead of filling at the marinas, but it won't change my summer.
I didn't change my lifestyle at all for covid; but I do think that high gasoline prices would calm down the economy at the margins.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 01-29-2022, 11:31 AM   #10
Loventhelake
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 18
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Itís January with temps in the negativeÖ new and used boats at the marina I work at have been flying out the door. Over 10 boats sold last week alone, I donít think anyone is really concerned with what gas prices are or will be in the upcoming season.
Loventhelake is offline  
Old 01-29-2022, 02:21 PM   #11
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

But they will complain about it.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 01-29-2022, 03:48 PM   #12
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 3,358
Thanks: 982
Thanked 1,264 Times in 802 Posts
Default

If these are new boat owners, they probably haven't learned to think in terms of 30 gph at WOT vs. 2gph at 8 knots.
Descant is offline  
Old 01-30-2022, 01:38 PM   #13
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,945
Thanks: 244
Thanked 726 Times in 430 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
If these are new boat owners, they probably haven't learned to think in terms of 30 gph at WOT vs. 2gph at 8 knots.
Not many boats on the lake are going to achieve 2gph at 8 knots (though pontoons might be able to, I don't know much about them). That's 50' single (small) diesel trawler territory. A typical lake boat that can actually burn 30 GPH (that's around 400 propshaft HP for gas) is going to maybe see 4 knots at 2GPH.

A few years ago, when gas was around 4 bucks a gallon on the street, we often saw people cruising around at 7 to 12 knots in <30' v-hull boats. That's literally the worst possible speed range for MPG in boats like that. Either run at idle or cleanly on plane at around 50-60% power (or faster). My last boat, a 25' deep V with a Bravo 3 I/O got 2 MPG at 50 MPH (43 knots and WOT). It got 1.4 MPG at 10 MPH (8.6 knots). At around 30MPH, it got around 2.6 MPG on average.
Dave R is offline  
Old 01-31-2022, 05:51 PM   #14
lakewinnie
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Moultonborough and CT
Posts: 47
Thanks: 19
Thanked 47 Times in 17 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
Not many boats on the lake are going to achieve 2gph at 8 knots (though pontoons might be able to, I don't know much about them). That's 50' single (small) diesel trawler territory. A typical lake boat that can actually burn 30 GPH (that's around 400 propshaft HP for gas) is going to maybe see 4 knots at 2GPH.

A few years ago, when gas was around 4 bucks a gallon on the street, we often saw people cruising around at 7 to 12 knots in <30' v-hull boats. That's literally the worst possible speed range for MPG in boats like that. Either run at idle or cleanly on plane at around 50-60% power (or faster). My last boat, a 25' deep V with a Bravo 3 I/O got 2 MPG at 50 MPH (43 knots and WOT). It got 1.4 MPG at 10 MPH (8.6 knots). At around 30MPH, it got around 2.6 MPG on average.
I'm not sure how this equates to MPG, but I get around 5 GPH at 30 MPH in my 24 foot Four Winns bowrider with the 5.3 liter Volvo Penta. That seems to be the sweet spot.
lakewinnie is offline  
Old 01-31-2022, 08:25 PM   #15
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH.Solar View Post
If the situation in the Ukraine does blow up, the lake will be again a very quiet and peaceful place. $5 a gallon this summer? or maybe even more??
It could get there without anything happening in the Ukraine. When a barrel of WTI almost reached $150, we had a much less vigorous GDP growth.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 02-01-2022, 08:55 AM   #16
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,945
Thanks: 244
Thanked 726 Times in 430 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakewinnie View Post
I'm not sure how this equates to MPG, but I get around 5 GPH at 30 MPH in my 24 foot Four Winns bowrider with the 5.3 liter Volvo Penta. That seems to be the sweet spot.
Just divide the MPH by the GPH to get MPG. 30/5=6 so 6 MPG.

6MPG in a 24 foot bowrider seems pretty optimistic though.

Assuming you have a 300 HP 5.3, I'd expect the top speed to be close to 50 MPH. Since drag is a function of the square of speed we can calculate the HP needed to go 30MPH if the boat tops out at 50MPH

50x50=2500 2500/300=8.33
30x30=900 900/8.33 = 108 HP

It takes roughly .08GPH to make 1 HP so 108 HP would require 8.64 GPH so I think you are getting around 3.5 MPG, 30/8.64= 3.5
Dave R is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
lakewinnie (02-01-2022)
Old 02-01-2022, 09:28 AM   #17
steve-on-mark
Senior Member
 
steve-on-mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Epping, NH / Mark Island
Posts: 1,028
Thanks: 83
Thanked 488 Times in 258 Posts
Default Mpg??

Way to cerebral for my feeble mind...my aft mounted fuel tanks are plastic and see through, so when they get low I break out the 5 gallon gas can. I use roughly a gallon of fuel back and forth to Glendale or Mt. View, but I'm not breaking any speed records.
steve-on-mark is offline  
Old 02-01-2022, 10:29 AM   #18
lakewinnie
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Moultonborough and CT
Posts: 47
Thanks: 19
Thanked 47 Times in 17 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
Just divide the MPH by the GPH to get MPG. 30/5=6 so 6 MPG.

6MPG in a 24 foot bowrider seems pretty optimistic though.

Assuming you have a 300 HP 5.3, I'd expect the top speed to be close to 50 MPH. Since drag is a function of the square of speed we can calculate the HP needed to go 30MPH if the boat tops out at 50MPH

50x50=2500 2500/300=8.33
30x30=900 900/8.33 = 108 HP

It takes roughly .08GPH to make 1 HP so 108 HP would require 8.64 GPH so I think you are getting around 3.5 MPG, 30/8.64= 3.5
I think most of your assumptions are spot on - with my current prop setup, my top speed is just a little over 50 mph.

I may be too simplistic in my approach here, but I basically take the gallons used in filling up the tank divided by the engine hours between fill-ups. I've been doing this since I bought the boat, and I have about 320 engine hours. With this math, I usually come out between 5 and 6 when I haven't been towing skiers, tubers, etc. When not towing, my cruising speed in decent conditions is usually around 30 mph. Not too scientific, and probably not very accurate.
lakewinnie is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to lakewinnie For This Useful Post:
Dave R (02-01-2022)
Old 02-01-2022, 10:56 AM   #19
upthesaukee
Senior Member
 
upthesaukee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Alton Bay
Posts: 5,420
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 2,186
Thanked 1,833 Times in 1,021 Posts
Default Smart guages

When I had a Sunbird with a 135 HP Optimax outboard installed, it had a Mercury smart guide installed in place of the regular speedometer. It had a speedometer, fuel flow g/h, gallons used, functions, among others.

I found it helpful to find that sweet spot for speed and economy. Also, the fuel used gave a better idea of fuel remaining, not that I would want to run it down to one gallon left.

Dave
__________________
I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!!
upthesaukee is offline  
Old 02-02-2022, 09:04 AM   #20
swnoel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 495
Thanks: 80
Thanked 180 Times in 109 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by camp guy View Post
Are you paraphrasing "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" ?
Boom! Kind of like those owning lake front property complaining about their property taxes.
swnoel is offline  
Old 02-02-2022, 10:04 AM   #21
thinkxingu
Senior Member
 
thinkxingu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,010
Thanks: 1,095
Thanked 1,623 Times in 989 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swnoel View Post
Boom! Kind of like those owning lake front property complaining about their property taxes.
Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
thinkxingu is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to thinkxingu For This Useful Post:
ACME on the Broads (02-02-2022), Biggd (02-02-2022), Boatbottom952 (03-07-2022), Descant (02-02-2022)
Old 02-02-2022, 02:38 PM   #22
NH.Solar
Senior Member
 
NH.Solar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton
Posts: 171
Thanks: 31
Thanked 100 Times in 54 Posts
Default Sharrow propellers

Here is a recent prop innovation that may help to stretch the ol' fuel economy, Sharrow propellers.
Strangest looking prop I've ever seen but who is to say that mobius strip blades won't work? I find this prop absolutely fascinating and apparently so does the commercial marine world. Stay tuned...
__________________
Peter
NH Solar
NH.Solar is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NH.Solar For This Useful Post:
Descant (02-02-2022), Weekend Pundit (04-07-2022)
Old 02-02-2022, 03:26 PM   #23
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,945
Thanks: 244
Thanked 726 Times in 430 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH.Solar View Post
Here is a recent prop innovation that may help to stretch the ol' fuel economy, Sharrow propellers.
Strangest looking prop I've ever seen but who is to say that mobius strip blades won't work? I find this prop absolutely fascinating and apparently so does the commercial marine world. Stay tuned...
Those are really cool and do seem to work as advertised, based on two articles I have read. They sure are proud of them though; yikes, the prices are eye-watering!
Dave R is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
upthesaukee (02-02-2022)
Old 02-02-2022, 07:40 PM   #24
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
But they are not forgoing other important things.
I see this all the time. People that can't afford their rent purchasing all sorts of ''toys''.
It is a choice they are making.
In 1995, Polaris and Bombardier requested independent studies on the future direction of their businesses. In 1998, they publicly released that information at the International Snowmobile Congress... most people left the room as they thought they were going to speak of global warming.
They didn't.

They spoke of the recent change to financing their own products and discovering how financially unstable those seeking their products really were.
After that, they locked the data until a shareholder lawsuit forced Polaris to release it. Bombardier, instead, chose to spin off the recreational division... that later had to go to bankruptcy due to poor management.

It was some of the earliest data that the anyone had bothered to correlate telling them that even after Reagan and O'Neil had warned Americans that savings Social Security under the Greenspan Commission plan meant the Americans would really need to focus more on retirement saving... and simply were not.

That data is not at this time eye-opening... but a lakefront home, or even a vacation home, is a luxury. Those that have saved millions for retirement and can keep the home up... pass it along without burden... and put their children/grandchildren in a position to continue to afford its upkeep... more power to them. For the rest, it is just a luxury that may be unreasonable.

It happens throughout the system.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 02-02-2022, 09:45 PM   #25
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 1,786
Thanks: 920
Thanked 768 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I agree that lake prices are rising too fast for the general good. I also agree that lots of people complain about property taxes and assert that they are forced to sell.

But like snowel, I do not believe these people who are doing the asserting that property taxes have forced them out of a place that's been in the family for generations. These multi-generational homes are worth 10X (30X?) what grandpa paid. Even for a modest home, we might call that a $1MM windfall. That potential cash might be too much to resist selling the house, but let's not call it forced by the evil taxman. Rent it for 2-3 weeks in July, then drive up for the rest of the summer and thank God for grandpa's good sense
FlyingScot is offline  
Old 02-03-2022, 12:07 AM   #26
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 468
Thanked 563 Times in 276 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
I agree that lake prices are rising too fast for the general good. I also agree that lots of people complain about property taxes and assert that they are forced to sell.

But like snowel, I do not believe these people who are doing the asserting that property taxes have forced them out of a place that's been in the family for generations. These multi-generational homes are worth 10X (30X?) what grandpa paid. Even for a modest home, we might call that a $1MM windfall. That potential cash might be too much to resist selling the house, but let's not call it forced by the evil taxman. Rent it for 2-3 weeks in July, then drive up for the rest of the summer and thank God for grandpa's good sense
You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is offline  
Old 02-03-2022, 08:27 PM   #27
camp guy
Senior Member
 
camp guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro
Posts: 1,017
Thanks: 246
Thanked 392 Times in 237 Posts
Default Cost of Fuel

The real, hard cold facts about fuel for boating can drive you crazy trying to figure out the details. The basic, simplest rule is: When you see a marina, fuel up, when you see the next marina (guess what) fuel up. I sold my boat several years ago, and truthfully, don't miss it.
camp guy is offline  
Old 02-03-2022, 08:53 PM   #28
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysanfran View Post
You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.
They weren't saving enough for retirement.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...41.4%20million.
John Mercier is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John Mercier For This Useful Post:
Descant (02-04-2022), KennyFromBoston (02-04-2022)
Old 02-06-2022, 09:23 AM   #29
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,945
Thanks: 244
Thanked 726 Times in 430 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysanfran View Post
You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.
We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.
Dave R is offline  
Old 02-06-2022, 01:21 PM   #30
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 3,358
Thanks: 982
Thanked 1,264 Times in 802 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.

Where is $1.49?? Here's a trip from NJ to Great Bay, July 2020.

Captain Bills Landing (1st fuel up in Pt Pleasant NJ) 240 gallons at 2.60 per Gallon 624.00
Oakland Marina (2nd fuel up) Oakland marina NY 153 gallons at 2.60 per gallon 398.00
Town of Sandwich (3rd fill up 220 gallons at 2.25)
Great Bay Marina was also about $2.60 but I can't find that receipt easily.
Compare:
Price at MVYC in Sept 2021 was 3.98; $4.49 at Y Landing October 6 2021.
Descant is offline  
Old 02-06-2022, 05:18 PM   #31
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 468
Thanked 563 Times in 276 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.
What a PITA that must be. Last minute rental and they have to vacate and remove all valuables? Where do they keep copies of their tax returns? Gotta remove them! Empty closets, etc. Just to pay your taxes...I hope where they live is worth that effort.
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is offline  
Old 02-06-2022, 05:46 PM   #32
MeredithMan
Senior Member
 
MeredithMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 751
Thanks: 207
Thanked 689 Times in 268 Posts
Default

The previous owners of our Meredith place lived there full time. It was their primary and only home. They rented it for the entire month of August to pay the taxes. They indicated that they would take all their personal stuff and cram it into their walk-in closet which they could lock from the inside. They were, (and still are), working full time, so I don't know where they went, but it wasn't on vacation.

It's one thing if you have a place as a rental/investment property, but the thought of total strangers being in my home and touching and using my things, gives me the heebie-jeebies.
MeredithMan is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MeredithMan For This Useful Post:
ACME on the Broads (03-08-2022), Biggd (02-06-2022), garysanfran (02-06-2022)
Old 02-06-2022, 05:53 PM   #33
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

They will suffer from the cost of fuel also.
People will choose to vacation closer to home.

History has shown that oil futures are a better inflation hedge than gold...
And that when consumers must pay a lot more for fuel they tend to offset travel.

Building suppliers notice the increase expenditures toward yards, which is what we are already setting up for.

Last edited by John Mercier; 02-09-2022 at 12:08 AM.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 02-07-2022, 08:11 AM   #34
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,945
Thanks: 244
Thanked 726 Times in 430 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mercier View Post
They will suffer from the cost of fuel also.
People will choose to vacation closer to home.

History has shown that oil futures are a better inflation hedge than gold...
And that when consumers must a lot more for fuel they tend to offset travel.

Building suppliers notice the increase expenditures toward yards, which is what we are already setting up for.
Assuming you are referring to my Hampton Beach friends, I don't think fuel costs will negatively affect Summer business at all. Historically, the vast majority of tourists in Hampton Beach aren't traveling long distances to get there and many local folks that put off travel due to high fuel costs will take vacations closer to home. It's the Wal Mart of vacation spots, it thrives regardless of economic conditions.
Dave R is offline  
Old 02-07-2022, 08:17 AM   #35
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,945
Thanks: 244
Thanked 726 Times in 430 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
Where is $1.49?? Here's a trip from NJ to Great Bay, July 2020.

Captain Bills Landing (1st fuel up in Pt Pleasant NJ) 240 gallons at 2.60 per Gallon 624.00
Oakland Marina (2nd fuel up) Oakland marina NY 153 gallons at 2.60 per gallon 398.00
Town of Sandwich (3rd fill up 220 gallons at 2.25)
Great Bay Marina was also about $2.60 but I can't find that receipt easily.
Compare:
Price at MVYC in Sept 2021 was 3.98; $4.49 at Y Landing October 6 2021.
Yankee Fisherman's Co Op in Seabrook (right across the harbor from our slip) was selling diesel for $1.49 in May and June of 2020. I think it went up to $1.99 by the end of the Summer. They don't advertise and the fuel dock is not exactly obvious. My boat has a 1000 mile range at my typical 8.5 knot cruise, so I buy the vast majority of my fuel there.

Was that you in the Chris Craft that I said hi to in Gosport Harbor late last season?
Dave R is offline  
Old 02-07-2022, 09:38 AM   #36
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,945
Thanks: 244
Thanked 726 Times in 430 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysanfran View Post
What a PITA that must be. Last minute rental and they have to vacate and remove all valuables? Where do they keep copies of their tax returns? Gotta remove them! Empty closets, etc. Just to pay your taxes...I hope where they live is worth that effort.
They have it setup such that it's ready to rent all the time. They live simply and travel light. They have no sentimentality about the condo or much of anything in the condo, it's like a hotel room to them. I am pretty sure they can easily afford the taxes and such without renting, it's just a nifty way to make a few bucks and let someone else pay the bills.

FWIW, my wife and I do something similar. We sold our (empty nest) house and the vast majority of of large belongings in Summer of 2020 and moved aboard our boat in Hampton Beach. We moved into a rented Hampton Beach Condo in Fall 2020 and moved back to the boat in Spring 2021 right after we bought the condo we were living in. We rented out the condo on AirBnB the entire time we were on the boat in 2021 and are doing it again this year (lots of repeat customers are booking it up already). It worked out really well for us and the rentals pay the vast majority of our condo bills for the year. We have a property manager that takes care of everything to do with the rentals.

Like our friends, we have no sentimentality about the condo; it's just a place to to live and the few valuables we have here go in storage or on the boat while the condo is rented out. Living like this is certainly not for everyone, but we are have the time of our lives. No more snow to manage, no firewood to process, no well pump to deal with, no roof to replace, no septic system to maintain, no lawn to mow, no leaves to rake, no garden to weed, no mulch to spread etc. We just pay a trivial monthly HOA fee and everything is taken care of.

Maintaining and improving the boat absorbs a lot of my time, but it's a labor of love and nowhere near as time consuming as the house and yard were. Maintaining and improving the boat is also giving me a tremendous knowledge of all the systems on board and I'm certain that will come in handy when the boat inevitably needs repair in some exotic location.

My wife and I both think last Summer was the best Summer of our lives. Releasing the lines and heading out for a week or two of Summer cruising on the New England coast is the best. The only "regret" while cruising was that we were missing out on the shenanigans with friends at the marina while we were gone. Fortunately, by the end of the season, said friends were joining us on their own boats. Anchoring for a few days in a beautiful harbor with a group of like-minded friends in a flotilla is wicked fun. We all use our dinghies to go to shore or to gather on each other's boats and have dinners together.
Dave R is offline  
Old 02-25-2022, 09:10 AM   #37
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,970
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 262
Thanked 870 Times in 626 Posts
Talking ..... hi-test $4.19/gal ..... OMG!

Just purchased one single gallon of hi-test, 91-octane Irving $4.19 gasoline for the Troy-Bilt 24" snowblower, plus replaced the spark plug and old yucky engine oil in anticipation for today's Friday, February 25 prediction for 8-12" snowfall. On Wednesday it was like 60-degrees, sunny, and warm; a fine day to work on the snowblower, outdoors.

The Motorcraft replacement spark plug cost something like $1.49 at Walmart.

First time ever that I spent the big money on hi-test gasoline to coax a little stronger performance out of the old snowblower.

It was money well spent! ..... $4.19 .... ..... hey, it's a high priority DEEP snowfall item! ....

To power up the kayak and the sup this coming spring & summer will stick with that reliable energy source ..... a box of breakfast cereal ...... Quaker 'Simply Granola' .... with milk .... same price as hi-test at $4.19/box.
__________________
.... age-70 & suffering terrible chronic tinnitus ... omg!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 02-25-2022 at 09:41 AM.
fatlazyless is offline  
Old 02-25-2022, 09:48 AM   #38
Charlie T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 283
Thanks: 231
Thanked 165 Times in 76 Posts
Default Gas Fallacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
Just purchased one single gallon of hi-test, 91-octane Irving $4.19 gasoline for the Troy-Bilt 24" snowblower, plus replaced the spark plug and old yucky engine oil in anticipation for today's Friday, February 25 prediction for 8-12" snowfall. On Wednesday it was like 60-degrees, sunny, and warm; a fine day to work on the snowblower, outdoors.

.

First time ever that I spent the big money on hi-test gasoline to coax a little stronger performance out of the old snowblower.
I hate to break it to you but it's a common and mistaken belief that High Octane fuel will provide you with more power. The high octane gas contains more "knock inhibitors" to prevent pre ignition in higher compression engines which have the potential to make more HP. Those knock inhibitors take up "space" in the gallon of gasoline that would otherwise contain hydrocarbons that contain energy. Essentially a gallon of 91 contains fewer BTU's (energy) than a gallon of 87. Most small equipment engine manufacturers specifically recommend against higher octane fuel as it gives poorer performance than "regular".
Charlie T is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Charlie T For This Useful Post:
garysanfran (02-25-2022), ITD (03-07-2022)
Old 02-25-2022, 09:50 AM   #39
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

I think I might shovel more this storm... I need the exercise.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 02-25-2022, 10:22 AM   #40
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,970
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 262
Thanked 870 Times in 626 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie T View Post
I hate to break it to you but it's a common and mistaken belief that High Octane fuel will provide you with more power. The high octane gas contains more "knock inhibitors" to prevent pre ignition in higher compression engines which have the potential to make more HP. Those knock inhibitors take up "space" in the gallon of gasoline that would otherwise contain hydrocarbons that contain energy. Essentially a gallon of 91 contains fewer BTU's (energy) than a gallon of 87. Most small equipment engine manufacturers specifically recommend against higher octane fuel as it gives poorer performance than "regular".
Thanks for the info. My gas container only holds one gallon of gasoline so's I should use it in the Subaru and go get a real non-ethanol single gallon from that 603-Gas in M-boro, tomorrow, after this snow storm is done for the snowblower and possibly the lawn mower & weed-wacker. Thinking a one gallon container will keep it more fresh than a larger container.

With 12" snow forecast, is smart to get out there and do the driveway ahead of the storm, before the snow falls ....... duh!!!!
__________________
.... age-70 & suffering terrible chronic tinnitus ... omg!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 02-25-2022 at 11:40 AM.
fatlazyless is offline  
Old 02-25-2022, 11:43 AM   #41
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

If the gasoline is being used right away... ethanol or non-ethanol shouldn't matter.

It seems to be when it sits for a long time the ethanol degrades from the humid air.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 09:02 AM   #42
BoatHouse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 116
Thanks: 223
Thanked 43 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Well - It looks like the price of gas on the lake could be well over $5.00/Gallon. Maybe closer to $6.00.

Now that may keep people from going W.O.T. and pulling the kids on tubes.

I have already set the stage for my summer visitors to expect short trips and lots of Anchor time. :-)
BoatHouse is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 09:50 AM   #43
WinnisquamZ
Senior Member
 
WinnisquamZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,396
Thanks: 148
Thanked 463 Times in 307 Posts
Default

ďPassing the hatĒ on tubing days


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
WinnisquamZ is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to WinnisquamZ For This Useful Post:
BoatHouse (03-07-2022)
Old 03-07-2022, 10:02 AM   #44
Lake Fan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Whortleberry Island
Posts: 93
Thanks: 13
Thanked 31 Times in 19 Posts
Default

The way things are going I think automobile gas will soon be $5.00 or $6.00 a gallon. If that's the case, marina gas could be $7.00 or more easily.

Should be more elbow room at Braun Bay this summer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatHouse View Post
Well - It looks like the price of gas on the lake could be well over $5.00/Gallon. Maybe closer to $6.00.

Now that may keep people from going W.O.T. and pulling the kids on tubes.

I have already set the stage for my summer visitors to expect short trips and lots of Anchor time. :-)
Lake Fan is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 10:15 AM   #45
AC2717
Senior Member
 
AC2717's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay
Posts: 2,436
Thanks: 711
Thanked 327 Times in 245 Posts
Default

over the weekend my family was put on notice by me that we will only be taking 1 car to NH unless not going on the same day, otherwise if we get there at 10pm we get there at 10pm waiting for everyone. No more 2/3 cars heading to the same location 100 miles away for now.

There goes my sunsets alone
__________________
Capt. of the "No Worries"
AC2717 is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to AC2717 For This Useful Post:
ACME on the Broads (03-08-2022), Biggd (03-07-2022), BoatHouse (03-07-2022)
Old 03-07-2022, 12:16 PM   #46
BoatHouse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 116
Thanks: 223
Thanked 43 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC2717 View Post
over the weekend my family was put on notice by me that we will only be taking 1 car to NH unless not going on the same day, otherwise if we get there at 10pm we get there at 10pm waiting for everyone. No more 2/3 cars heading to the same location 100 miles away for now.



There goes my sunsets alone


I was thinking the exact same thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
BoatHouse is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 12:46 PM   #47
thinkxingu
Senior Member
 
thinkxingu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,010
Thanks: 1,095
Thanked 1,623 Times in 989 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatHouse View Post
I was thinking the exact same thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
Ditto, which makes me wonder what traffic will be like...or wait times at restaurants...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
thinkxingu is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 04:57 PM   #48
LIforrelaxin
Senior Member
 
LIforrelaxin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 892
Thanked 785 Times in 447 Posts
Default

Given the pandemic, and now this gas price issue. It is likely going to mean continued struggles for some NH businesses.

Myself it looks like the truck will stay home more and we will take the wifes car more often. As for boating, the season is short, and for everything else there is Mastercard....
__________________
Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....
LIforrelaxin is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 05:05 PM   #49
SAB1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Tuftonboro
Posts: 1,027
Thanks: 149
Thanked 252 Times in 189 Posts
Default

I think if gas hits $6 or $ 7 a gallon here there will be larger issues than boat gasÖ..
SAB1 is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 06:43 PM   #50
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 3,358
Thanks: 982
Thanked 1,264 Times in 802 Posts
Default S & d

Some think this is supply and demand, but recall there are folks in DC who think this is exactly what we need to reduce carbon footprint and they have effectively eliminated enough supply to do away with a free market economy. I just don't understand how those folks can have so much money and not want to own a boat. Maybe they are just guests on other peoples/lobbyists boats?
Descant is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 07:39 PM   #51
TiltonBB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 2,466
Thanks: 472
Thanked 1,860 Times in 765 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
Some think this is supply and demand, but recall there are folks in DC who think this is exactly what we need to reduce carbon footprint and they have effectively eliminated enough supply to do away with a free market economy. I just don't understand how those folks can have so much money and not want to own a boat. Maybe they are just guests on other peoples/lobbyists boats?
Everyone is different.

Some of us love our time on our boats, and we are not on our boats, we are thinking about the next time we can be.

Many of us love our time at the lake, and when we are not there, look forward to the next time we can be.

But, we have to remember, many people would be just as happy to stand at the Museum of Fine arts and stare at a picture, and wish they could own it. (In my mind, that is just because no one ever took them out on Lake Winnipesaukee in a boat. Who wouldn't love that?)
TiltonBB is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TiltonBB For This Useful Post:
FlyingScot (03-07-2022), KennyFromBoston (03-07-2022)
Old 03-07-2022, 07:52 PM   #52
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Recreational boats are a bad investment unless you are a manufacturer or salesperson.

Oil hasn't been a free market since OPEC was created before I was born.
To effectively control the price of oil, you need to be an exporting country.

''In our February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), we forecast that crude oil prices will remain high enough to drive U.S. crude oil production to record-high levels in 2023, reaching a forecast 12.6 million barrels per day (b/d). We expect new production in the Permian Basin to drive overall U.S. crude oil production growth.
In the February STEO, we forecast that U.S. crude oil production will increase to 12.0 million b/d in 2022, up 760,000 b/d from 2021. We forecast that crude oil production in the United States will rise by 630,000 b/d in 2023 to average 12.6 million b/d. We expect more than 80% of that crude oil production growth to come from the Lower 48 states (L48), which does not include production from Alaska and the Federal Offshore Gulf of Mexico.
Production from new L48 wells, particularly in the Permian region, drive our forecast of U.S. crude oil production growth. Legacy production, or crude oil production from existing wells, typically declines relatively quickly in tight oil formations, and we expect that production from new wells will offset these legacy production declines.
Crude oil prices have generally increased since April 2020, resulting in increased crude oil production. The Brent spot price for crude oil (the international benchmark) reached $97 per barrel (b) on February 7, 2022, the highest nominal price (not adjusted for inflation) since September 17, 2014.
From January 8, 2021, to February 7, 2022, the L48 added 220 oil-directed rigs, 114 of which were in the Permian region. We forecast that production in the Permian region will average 5.3 million b/d in 2022 and 5.7 million b/d in 2023.''

Doesn't seem to be any problem other than low prices that limited US oil production. If OPEC doesn't pump... then US drillers will.
Will OPEC pump to knock out those US drillers... maybe... but we will have to see.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 03-07-2022, 07:53 PM   #53
WinnisquamZ
Senior Member
 
WinnisquamZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,396
Thanks: 148
Thanked 463 Times in 307 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAB1 View Post
I think if gas hits $6 or $ 7 a gallon here there will be larger issues than boat gas…..
Can’t disagree


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
WinnisquamZ is online now  
Old 03-07-2022, 07:56 PM   #54
Boatbottom952
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 20
Thanks: 21
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ View Post
Canít disagree


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

They're talking $200 a barrel for Oil. $7-8 dollars a Gallon if that happens.
Boatbottom952 is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 08:23 AM   #55
Seaplane Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,127
Thanks: 595
Thanked 876 Times in 339 Posts
Default

Pretty soon youíll see the Witches turned into a massive charging station for your electric boats. What a perfect world it will beÖ (tongue is in cheek).

I say:

DRILL - BABY - DRILL !
Seaplane Pilot is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 09:18 AM   #56
MeredithMan
Senior Member
 
MeredithMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 751
Thanks: 207
Thanked 689 Times in 268 Posts
Default True, they are pure recreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mercier View Post
Recreational boats are a bad investment unless you are a manufacturer or salesperson.
True 'dat, as the hip people say. They're not an investment at all, unless it's maybe a 1930's mahogany Chris Craft or something of that ilk. The only "return" you'll get is enjoyment; no different than spending money on any other hobby or sport that you do in your down-time. Maybe one difference though...boats are now so darn expensive to buy/keep/maintain...that's where some folks get in over their heads financially.
MeredithMan is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 09:21 AM   #57
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Itís about time itís priced what it should be.

I donít care if itís $10/gallon personally.
Iím 99% Solar for all energy needs.

But I do care how much it impacts the economy.
And care about families that simply canít afford it.

Such a sudden change is never good.
Pleasure Boats are the last problem.

I had wished they taxed the hell out of gas while it was cheap to help fund desperately needed road / bridge reconstruction. And alternative fuels so that we are less dependent on oil.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 11:33 AM   #58
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kuna ID
Posts: 2,754
Thanks: 245
Thanked 1,931 Times in 801 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
It’s about time it’s priced what it should be.

I don’t care if it’s $10/gallon personally.
I’m 99% Solar for all energy needs.

But I do care how much it impacts the economy.
And care about families that simply can’t afford it.

Such a sudden change is never good.
Pleasure Boats are the last problem.

I had wished they taxed the hell out of gas while it was cheap to help fund desperately needed road / bridge reconstruction. And alternative fuels so that we are less dependent on oil.

Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.
MAXUM is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to MAXUM For This Useful Post:
AC2717 (03-08-2022), DEJ (03-08-2022), garysanfran (03-08-2022), Grandpa Redneck (03-08-2022), Loub52 (03-10-2022), Seaplane Pilot (03-08-2022)
Old 03-08-2022, 11:56 AM   #59
Garcia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 476
Thanks: 102
Thanked 215 Times in 132 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.
Who are they - and where are they?
Garcia is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 12:47 PM   #60
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 1,786
Thanks: 920
Thanked 768 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.
Standard oil industry misinformation. Every reputable study shows huge environmental benefits to both solar and EVs, even after taking these points into account.

A related issue that does not require scientific analysis--the economic benefits to homes and businesses with solar panels were huge even before the price run up. Now they are massive.

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof
FlyingScot is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 01:52 PM   #61
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kuna ID
Posts: 2,754
Thanks: 245
Thanked 1,931 Times in 801 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
Standard oil industry misinformation. Every reputable study shows huge environmental benefits to both solar and EVs, even after taking these points into account.

A related issue that does not require scientific analysis--the economic benefits to homes and businesses with solar panels were huge even before the price run up. Now they are massive.

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof
This has nothing to do with oil.... you may find this story rather interesting.

My electric bill right now is running me about $25.00 per month here in Idaho. Why so cheap? Hydroelectric power and a lot of it. What could be more green than that? Well the environmentalists out here want to remove the dams and return the rivers to their "natural state" which they have no coherent plan to replace the power generated from them which will drive those costs skywards, and how much sense does it make to replace something that is in place now, working awesome and is already renewable?

The net result of this beyond the power void it creates? Lack of flood control, inability to guarantee irrigation water to all the ag producers, taking away the transportation lanes for many products that use more efficiently these riverways for transporting goods and dumping them where? Rail lines or OTR trucking? Hmm....

Makes zero sense, but to the greenies they want what they want to hell with anyone else or the economic suicide that it takes to get there.

I am NOT anti alternative energy, I really think it will get there, but it takes time, this is an emerging technology so let it emerge. In the mean time coherent and responsible energy needs to be readily available to all at a reasonable cost to consumers. We have the ability to be self sufficient, and with that independent on the world stage, that translates into an ability to handle events such as what is going on today differently. This is not a provocative way of thinking - it is a sane and sensible thing to do. Bankrupting the country and funding outlaw states that wreak havoc around the world does not.
MAXUM is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to MAXUM For This Useful Post:
AC2717 (03-08-2022), Descant (03-08-2022), garysanfran (03-08-2022), Meredith AK (03-08-2022), Seaplane Pilot (03-08-2022)
Old 03-08-2022, 02:34 PM   #62
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 468
Thanked 563 Times in 276 Posts
Default

Americans can be impatient and want change immediately. A drastic change in energy should be evolutionary, not revolutionary. Otherwise you end up with expensive technology obsolete in a very short time.

If nuclear is not a part of the discussion, it's not going to be a serious discussion.
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 02:44 PM   #63
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 468
Thanked 563 Times in 276 Posts
Default Evolution of solar....

I found this quite educational...I know it's an ad...

https://news.energysage.com/solar-pa...ost-over-time/
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 03:16 PM   #64
WinnisquamZ
Senior Member
 
WinnisquamZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,396
Thanks: 148
Thanked 463 Times in 307 Posts
Default Cost of fuel...

At these numbers, thinking of converting to propane from oil. Currently have propane for parlor stove and cooking. Has anyone recently undergone the conversion?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
WinnisquamZ is online now  
Old 03-08-2022, 03:24 PM   #65
thinkxingu
Senior Member
 
thinkxingu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,010
Thanks: 1,095
Thanked 1,623 Times in 989 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof
You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
thinkxingu is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 03:49 PM   #66
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.
All forms of energy cost. The idea is to diversify. Nothing it perfect.
But it sure beats burning fossil fuel.

The panels will get recycled. There isnít much infrastructure yet in the US because there isnít much need. EU started Solar earlier and has recycling programs now.

https://www.cedgreentech.com/article...ls-be-recycled

Youíre just trying to justify burning fossil fuel is better.

Your right that EVís have a long ways to go to be carbon neutral too.

But I donít mind helping fund energy diversity. EVís will get better and better.
Each generation of Tesla batteries aims to use less heavy metals.

Your just trying to justify your gas burning ICE is sone how better. Well sure isnít good for the lakes.

Your also right that China might be more sloppy in producing batteries and panels.

It is the direction things are going. Massive facilities are going Solar and EV for a reason. I doubt the aim it to pollute more. Amazon, Apple, Meta etc all aim to be carbon neutral. Carbon is the major problem right now. Yea, we will have deal with other side effects too.

Go ahead and encourage the world to keep buying oil from OPEC and Russia I guess is your plan.

Iíll take my chances with PV and EV. Much more manageable, long term.
mswlogo is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to mswlogo For This Useful Post:
Biggd (03-08-2022)
Old 03-08-2022, 03:53 PM   #67
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ View Post
At these numbers, thinking of converting to propane from oil. Currently have propane for parlor stove and cooking. Has anyone recently undergone the conversion?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
You do realize propane is much more expensive than oil. It might not be for a short while, but it will probably continue that track. It does burn a lot cleaner and less issues. But Iíd much more expensive.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 04:07 PM   #68
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
You have a point.

Solar is pretty cheap though.

My ROI is 6 years. After that it’s PROFITABLE.
Yes, will make money.
Because I take some burden off the grid they pay me CASH to be self sustaining.

Solar is NOT free. You are prepaying it.
The rule of thumb is I’m paying about 0.08 KWh (as opposed to 0.26 KWh in MA).

You can lease and save some money long term.
But if you can afford it you do save money, quite a bit, long term.

Say your electric bill is $150 a month.
Multiple that out 20 years and it’s $36,000

Install Solar for $18K. Bill goes to $0.00

You save $18,000.00

Now that assume price doesn’t go up. The more it goes up the more you save.

Now you could invest that $36,000 too and keep paying for electricity.
I elected to go green-ER

EV’s are almost in reach of average consumer. Maybe 5 more years.
You don’t need to be rich to own one now. But you need to be comfortable.
If you can afford lake property I suspect you can afford both with no problem.

The number one reason I buy a Tesla is, it’s one of the safest vehicles on the planet to get me to and from NH. It’s the only way I can justify it because it’s not financially sound just yet. Even with Solar to power it.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 05:01 PM   #69
thinkxingu
Senior Member
 
thinkxingu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,010
Thanks: 1,095
Thanked 1,623 Times in 989 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
You have a point.

Solar is pretty cheap though.

My ROI is 6 years. After that itís PROFITABLE.
Yes, will make money.
Because I take some burden off the grid they pay me CASH to be self sustaining.

Solar is NOT free. You are prepaying it.
The rule of thumb is Iím paying about 0.08 KWh (as opposed to 0.26 KWh in MA).

You can lease and save some money long term.
But if you can afford it you do save money, quite a bit, long term.

Say your electric bill is $150 a month.
Multiple that out 20 years and itís $36,000

Install Solar for $18K. Bill goes to $0.00

You save $18,000.00

Now that assume price doesnít go up. The more it goes up the more you save.

Now you could invest that $36,000 too and keep paying for electricity.
I elected to go green-ER

EVís are almost in reach of average consumer. Maybe 5 more years.
You donít need to be rich to own one now. But you need to be comfortable.
If you can afford lake property I suspect you can afford both with no problem.

The number one reason I buy a Tesla is, itís one of the safest vehicles on the planet to get me to and from NH. Itís the only way I can justify it because itís not financially sound just yet. Even with Solar to power it.
You realize that everything before and after "install solar at $18k" is worthless, right?

Something like 60% of Americans would be wiped out by a thousand dollar expense.

The increase in fuel, food, clothing, etc. costs are going to force hundreds of thousands from middle class to lower class status.

What percent of Americans can afford $18k?! And, if they'd have to take a loan out in order to do so, or not pay off other loans in the process, your ROI is directly affected.

True story: I was at Market Basket last week and the guy next to be bought two rolls of toilet paper even though the 4-pack was on sale for 25% off because he only had enough in his budget for two rolls. Extrapolate that to all areas of life, and therein lies the glitch.

THAT'S most of America.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
thinkxingu is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 05:29 PM   #70
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 3,358
Thanks: 982
Thanked 1,264 Times in 802 Posts
Default

Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?
Descant is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 07:16 PM   #71
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

I think most of you are missing the point.
Large corporations do large projects... not an individual or a small group.
So other than rooftop solar, a backyard windmill, or some smaller system... it really is just a matter of historical precedent for large corporations.

Build a nuclear facility, go bankrupt. Attempt to build a pipeline in southern NH or reverse the flow in northern NH, face the backlash from both political parties. Try to build a transmission line, face the backlash from both political parties and lose millions.

So other than conservation... the only new sourcing will be those small projects.

Complaining may make some feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that we are using more than we can supply without relying on others that many, if not most, we don't like.

By the way... 4.20 at the pump.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 08:13 PM   #72
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?
You do know what Net Metering is, right?
You donít get it all back. NH takes 25%. MA takes 20%.
There are also connect fees etc.
But you can ďpayĒ for it with kwh at least you can in MA
So you size your system to over produce enough to cover it.

So electric company can produce less energy when needed.
So both parties win.

Now if everyone did that, it would not work. But currently it does.
And we have a long ways to go.

Things will adjust accordingly.

In some states donít offer NetMetering.
Then you invest in battery. There is no need to with NetMetering.

By the time the ROI gets bad the the panels will be much cheaper, more power and cheaper batteries.

26% tax credit ends this year BTW.
I plan to install another Solar system in NH this year to get the tax credit.

And Iíll probably get premium dollars for my house in MA when I show the buyer my electric bill and EV charger. So it wonít matter that I ever reached my ROI date.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 08:22 PM   #73
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
You realize that everything before and after "install solar at $18k" is worthless, right?

Something like 60% of Americans would be wiped out by a thousand dollar expense.

The increase in fuel, food, clothing, etc. costs are going to force hundreds of thousands from middle class to lower class status.

What percent of Americans can afford $18k?! And, if they'd have to take a loan out in order to do so, or not pay off other loans in the process, your ROI is directly affected.

True story: I was at Market Basket last week and the guy next to be bought two rolls of toilet paper even though the 4-pack was on sale for 25% off because he only had enough in his budget for two rolls. Extrapolate that to all areas of life, and therein lies the glitch.

THAT'S most of America.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Like I said. If you can’t afford it. You lease. That’s what all the Solar calls are and guy in the Home Depot store is selling. Zero out of pocket. You will pay less for electricity and over time it will save you more. My friend did that and they put in a whole new service for free. If system doesn’t produce enough juice. Say in winter the roof is covered. They PAY him a check to give the electric company to pay his bill !!

Anyone that is considering Solar probably owns a home to put the Solar on.
I suspect most home owners could afford it.

It’s one of the best purchases I’ve ever made.

I have to laugh when anyone tries to argue against it. Just ridiculous. Like it’s a crime or something.

If you get a full Tesla setup (Solar and EV) it will time the charging of your car to when you are over producing on Solar. (Saves that 25% on NetMetering). Since the EV is fairly flexible of when it gets filled.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 09:36 PM   #74
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 1,786
Thanks: 920
Thanked 768 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
This has nothing to do with oil.... you may find this story rather interesting.

My electric bill right now is running me about $25.00 per month here in Idaho. Why so cheap? Hydroelectric power and a lot of it. What could be more green than that? Well the environmentalists out here want to remove the dams and return the rivers to their "natural state" which they have no coherent plan to replace the power generated from them which will drive those costs skywards, and how much sense does it make to replace something that is in place now, working awesome and is already renewable?

The net result of this beyond the power void it creates? Lack of flood control, inability to guarantee irrigation water to all the ag producers, taking away the transportation lanes for many products that use more efficiently these riverways for transporting goods and dumping them where? Rail lines or OTR trucking? Hmm....

Makes zero sense, but to the greenies they want what they want to hell with anyone else or the economic suicide that it takes to get there.

I am NOT anti alternative energy, I really think it will get there, but it takes time, this is an emerging technology so let it emerge. In the mean time coherent and responsible energy needs to be readily available to all at a reasonable cost to consumers. We have the ability to be self sufficient, and with that independent on the world stage, that translates into an ability to handle events such as what is going on today differently. This is not a provocative way of thinking - it is a sane and sensible thing to do. Bankrupting the country and funding outlaw states that wreak havoc around the world does not.
I think we agree!

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you
FlyingScot is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 09:49 PM   #75
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 1,786
Thanks: 920
Thanked 768 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I agree that the outlay is tough for many people:

On solar--pretty much any homeowner with a decent roof and credit rating can lease panels with no money down, and still get the majority of the savings from the systems.

On heat pumps--I would only expect a person to do this if they were doing a renovation, so they have cash.

On EVs--they are less expensive than they appear and getting cheaper all the time. Volkswagen, just for example, is now shipping their ID.4, price is about $35K after EV rebate. More coming soon from VW, Ford, Subaru, Nissan, in addition to higher cars.
FlyingScot is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 10:00 PM   #76
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
I think we agree!

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you
I totally agree too.

Almost anything we do will cause some harm.

It really bothered me how so many were against more windmills.
Stupid stupid arguments from really smart people.

Yes, they will kill some birds. Yes, you will see them. Yes there will be some impact installing them. But they are a net win vs the alternatives.

We may never get rid of oil. But that’s ok.
But we can try to rebalance sources so we use a little of each.
Too much of anyone causes the most harm.

Wasn’t it hydro power that Canada wanted to send down our way that 95% NH said no too. I don’t even care if it passed through NH. If MA burns less oil, that’s good for NH too.

Like someone mentioned. Why should all the harm happen in China and NH get off with little or no impact? We all have to share some burden for energy.

Looking at Windmills and allowing a power line through was a pretty small penalty compared to sacrifices other states make. Coal states, fracking states, oil states, mining states.

Would I prefer not have solar panels on my pretty new house. Sure. But it’s worth it and I’ll make it work with the least visual impact. And for the record Solar might not work out in NH for me. I’m not gonna cut a bunch of trees for it. Maybe I’ll put up a wind mill. That would go over big
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-08-2022, 10:02 PM   #77
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 1,786
Thanks: 920
Thanked 768 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?
A couple of great points!

I agree the subsidies will taper off as more people get solar, so get in soon! I disagree the system will fail--the government will subsidize as easy landing--just as it is doing with the programs you cite.

School Boards and other nonprofits are not eligible for the big money part of the subsidies. A homeowner or business gets 26% of their solar investment back immediately in the form of a tax credit. (Businesses also get accelerated depreciation on top of that--87% in Year 1). Schools, local governments, and nonprofits such as YMCAs and churches do not pay taxes, so they do not get the credit. In effect, if a car dealer and a church both buy solar, the church is paying 50% more than the car dealer. Obviously this is messed up and makes it impossible for the School Boards. (The Build Back Better bill had a provision to fix this.)
FlyingScot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to FlyingScot For This Useful Post:
mswlogo (03-08-2022)
Old 03-08-2022, 10:10 PM   #78
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
A couple of great points!

I agree the subsidies will taper off as more people get solar, so get in soon! I disagree the system will fail--the government will subsidize as easy landing--just as it is doing with the programs you cite.

School Boards and other nonprofits are not eligible for the big money part of the subsidies. A homeowner or business gets 26% of their solar investment back immediately in the form of a tax credit. (Businesses also get accelerated depreciation on top of that--87% in Year 1). Schools, local governments, and nonprofits such as YMCAs and churches do not pay taxes, so they do not get the credit. In effect, if a car dealer and a church both buy solar, the church is paying 50% more than the car dealer. Obviously this is messed up and makes it impossible for the School Boards. (The Build Back Better bill had a provision to fix this.)
You make good points.

But I bet most installers would give churches and non profits a 26% better price.
I guarantee they mark up a good chunk because they know your getting 26% off. I bet prices drop proportionally when credits expire.
I don’t care that much though. It’s the small companies trying to get into new tech that needs it just as much as the consumer does.

I guarantee Tesla got most of the EV Tax credits. Once they expired prices dropped.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-09-2022, 11:43 AM   #79
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kuna ID
Posts: 2,754
Thanks: 245
Thanked 1,931 Times in 801 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
I think we agree!

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you
Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.
MAXUM is offline  
Old 03-09-2022, 02:39 PM   #80
NH.Solar
Senior Member
 
NH.Solar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton
Posts: 171
Thanks: 31
Thanked 100 Times in 54 Posts
Default

First a few points of clarification;
1. When the NH PUC changed the rules on net metering four years ago the credits issued for excess solar production exported back into the grid went from dollar for dollar to ~75 cents on the dollar on the credit side. The individual utilities, not the State, were allowed to retain the 25% net metering discount. At the same time the PUC decreed that the utilities in turn would have to change their crediting from kWh to a monetary basis. Overall this seems to me a very equitable plan, the utilites get to keep 25% on the power exported into their grid, and the consumer can now use the credits to offset the fixed net metering costs that formerly would have always produced a billing. This was especially beneficial to the NHEC customers because the credits can now be used against their stiff $31 meter (membership) fee. I have a modest 8.2 kW roof mounted solar array, but from April until usually January don't see a billing at all ...very satisfying.

2. Leasing solar is only good for the solar installer! Generally the programs only reward you with a fixed low monthly utility rate in exchange for mounting an array on your property. If the general utility rates should ever go down you may find yourself locked into a contract rate that is higher than the public utility rate and upside down. This is fairly unlikely, but rates do occasionally decline. The Co-op will sometimes do this when they hike their fixed memebership fee and present it as a marketing advantage when in fact for most clients the higher meter fee offsets any temporary decline in the kWh rate. By the way don't take this as a criticism of the Co-op, they are only doing what's neccesary to accomodate their ever increasing costs while presenting it to their clients as favorably as possible.
Second, if you have a leased solar array on your roof that asset is not yours, and it is in fact a huge deteriment to your property. If you ever want to sell, the contract has to be assumed by the new buyer, or you need to pay the cost to have the array removed and the roof made weatherproof again.
3. The solar installer gets to keep the 26% ITC ....nuff said.

As far as affordability for the general public goes, it shouldn't be a problem at all as long as you have maintained your credit scores. We generally refer our clients to Mascoma Bank for financing their renewable energy projects. Their program is excellent, they are local, and the service top notch. The end result for the potential solar buyer is that their monthly outlay to finance their solar array is the same or maybe even less that their current monthly utility bill ...but at the end of their financing contract they own the solar array producing their power and from that point forward that portion of their electricity is coming to them for free. In addition, should they wish to sell their home in the near future the asset value of the array is part of the value of the home they are selling. Sure there will still be some buyers that shy away from a solar array, but not that many.

The cost of EV's... I bought a pristine loaded Chevy Volt coming in off of a lease two years ago and it has been a wonderful experience! The car had 23K miles on it when I took possession and Colonial Chevy in Mass delivered it to my New Hampton home for just $23k, with an extended warranty covering it to 50k miles! I have nearly that on it already and will be trading it soon for another newer lease end low mileage Volt. The car is a delight to drive, has all of the goodies I want, and easily saves me $250 a month in fuel alone over the cost of driving my Duramax. Whenever possible I try to charge it midday so that my excess solar goes into the Volt at 100% of value, rather than at night when that same solar energy would have been subjected to the 25% net metering discount. I can leave my New Hampton home and rive up to Cannon and back and it only costs me a 1/4 gallon of gas (the Volt has a backup onboard generator), and if I wantedto go to the Cape, I'll be somewhere across the Mass border before the generator even starts purring in the background. Best part is, even when I'm running on the generator the car still is getting 40+ mpg and has the scoot of an EV.
I do have money down on both the new Ford Lightning and a Chevy Silverado EV and will take whichever I can first get my hands on. I'd prefer the Ford because it is bedirectional and can actually feed power back into my home when the grid is down, but would prefer the Chevy because they say it will be offered as a 2500 and then I could lose my trusty but expensive to run Duramax.

Finally, dams and windmills. I am part owner of a dam on a 53 acre pond and if there were a power line close enough to hook 3 phase into it would be a perfect sistuation ...but there isn't. This means that myself and my neighbor are fully responsible for the maintenance and liabilty of this dam. It is worth it because ofthe pristine and very private nature of our shared pond, but I wouldn't recommend it for most. We have to get it inspected by the DES every four years and should they ever find a deficiency we are on the hook for it.
I can also see the Rumney windmills from my hilltop home site and while I like what I see right now, I really don't want to see any more.

It is my opinion that the best solution in everyway for our need for energy, both locally and on the grand scale, is efficiency improvements and localized solar with energy storage. The batteries are the key and the progress since Elon Musk came alone and said to the world, "yes we can", has been astonishing. I do takethe time to contact out public reps every now and again and plead the case for moving the State and Federal incentives off solar generation and into energy storage, but so far it has been a case of shouting into the wind. Maybe someday...
__________________
Peter
NH Solar

Last edited by NH.Solar; 03-10-2022 at 11:06 AM.
NH.Solar is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to NH.Solar For This Useful Post:
BoatHouse (03-11-2022), Descant (03-09-2022), FlyingScot (03-09-2022), trfour (03-09-2022)
Old 03-09-2022, 02:47 PM   #81
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.
Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-09-2022, 02:51 PM   #82
Dblblkdiam
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sherborn, MA
Posts: 11
Thanks: 7
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Just my 2 cents on the subject for anyone interested in solar & heat pumps

My 3,600 sq ft home has leased solar panels. I am locked into a price per kWh generated which as of right now is better than mkt. Might not always be the case, but kept the install cost ~18K in my pocket.
I generate more power than I consume so i generate credits on my electric account through net metering.

My current heat is oil
I recently installed entire home heat pumps and integrated controls which creates a hybrid system. Heat pumps work until around 20 degrees, then the oil kicks in to support in extreme temperatures. Oil consumption has materially gone down.
My solar credits cover the costs to operate the heat pumps & A/C.
When pricing out the replacement of my old central A/C, to add the heat pump functionality was around $7K. I received $7K+ rebate from MassSave to convert so basically the heat pump "option" was free.
MassSave also let me finance the difference in cost for 7 years at zero percent interest. Just another perk of going green or more efficient.

Last edited by Dblblkdiam; 03-09-2022 at 04:33 PM.
Dblblkdiam is offline  
Old 03-09-2022, 03:56 PM   #83
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 468
Thanked 563 Times in 276 Posts
Default Lithium resources...

So long as China is the largest supplier of lithium, nations that depend on electric cars will become more beholden to China.

I believe China is also the largest producer of solar panels.

Plus our medical supplies and almost every trinket you buy in the "kitchen wares" section of any market.

Becoming more dependent on China is not my idea of independence.
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to garysanfran For This Useful Post:
trfour (03-09-2022)
Old 03-09-2022, 04:33 PM   #84
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysanfran View Post
So long as China is the largest supplier of lithium, nations that depend on electric cars will become more beholden to China.

I believe China is also the largest producer of solar panels.

Plus our medical supplies and almost every trinket you buy in the "kitchen wares" section of any market.

Becoming more dependent on China is not my idea of independence.
Really? According to this itís Australia and Chile that produces most Lithium.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ut-of-lithium/
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-09-2022, 04:35 PM   #85
NH.Solar
Senior Member
 
NH.Solar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Jackson Pond, New Hampton
Posts: 171
Thanks: 31
Thanked 100 Times in 54 Posts
Default

Ir used to be the most of the solar modules installed in the USA were from China, but no more. The Trump administration instituted a stiff tariff on all solar modules from China to stop market flooding and as a consequence most panels installed now are either domestically made or from Indonesia. Naturally I disagreed with Trump's decision when it was first announced, but in the long run it proved to be quite a bonus. The only Chinese modules currently exempt from some reason from the tariff are bifacials ..which we use a lot of ;-) LG used to be our go-to, but they have recently announced that they are abandoning the modules industry to focus on their home batteries.
Lithium does look like it could become more and more valuable as time goes by, and for this reason I have recently bought stock in one US LI recycling company and am waiting for the IPO on the other. Returns are only ok on the one I'm invested in but my fingers are crossed. The other already has a huge stock pile of old EV batteries, has been partially funded by both Ford, Volvo, and Tesla, and is staffed by a lot of former Tesla employees ...hmmm
__________________
Peter
NH Solar

Last edited by NH.Solar; 03-10-2022 at 11:04 AM.
NH.Solar is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to NH.Solar For This Useful Post:
garysanfran (03-09-2022)
Old 03-09-2022, 07:22 PM   #86
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.
New wells already on the way. The price simply needed to be high enough for the drillers to feel that the long term investment in a well would not be lost by a simple blip in the price. It makes no sense to drill a well that has a $50/$60$80 per barrel expense in a market that is not willing to pay more than that expense.

But it takes time to hire and train personnel, and not exactly a productive supply chain for equipment and parts.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 09:28 AM   #87
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kuna ID
Posts: 2,754
Thanks: 245
Thanked 1,931 Times in 801 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But Iíd care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. Itís also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeepís Iíve had. Lotís people canít afford those either but I donít see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people canít afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You donít have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I donít know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I donít know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.
MAXUM is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 09:57 AM   #88
granitebox
Senior Member
 
granitebox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Steamboat Springs - Bear Island
Posts: 125
Thanks: 108
Thanked 68 Times in 28 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.
Its always an issue to me when someone references "I have a friend" or "I know a guy" or "I read that...."

I have a model 3, about 20,000 miles on it with no issues. Perhaps you really do know people who have nothing but problems but that's not representative of the car or the EV industry.

Consumer Reports - an unbiased review IMO rates the 2022 Tesla Model 3 as a recommended car - no small feat.
granitebox is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 10:27 AM   #89
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.
Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. Thatís it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. Iím also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason Iím trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesnít last long and can leave you stranded and doesnít give much warning. And if it dies itís not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/te...-win-2020/amp/

I donít care for leases either. And donít like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I canít stand the thought of not actually owning my car. Iíve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that youíre better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I donít buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesnít.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 11:03 AM   #90
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,970
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 262
Thanked 870 Times in 626 Posts
Default 4.19-gal/reg gasoline

March 10, 2022 and the NH price for regular gas is now $4.19/gal so's that maybe means that boat gas, this summer, will be above the not-so-magical price of $5.00/gallon ....... weeeeeoooooo .......... and holy-moly!!!

After gassing up the car, yesterday, in Ashland, I took a peek at the other gas pump to see what a big gray 4-door Toyota Tundra pick-up just purchased for gas and they had only bought twenty dollars of gas?????

Was expecting to see some price like $95 or something! .....
__________________
.... age-70 & suffering terrible chronic tinnitus ... omg!
fatlazyless is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 12:37 PM   #91
Winnisquamer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Winnisquam
Posts: 408
Thanks: 72
Thanked 115 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. Thatís it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. Iím also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason Iím trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesnít last long and can leave you stranded and doesnít give much warning. And if it dies itís not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/te...-win-2020/amp/

I donít care for leases either. And donít like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I canít stand the thought of not actually owning my car. Iíve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that youíre better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I donít buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesnít.

Iíve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got luckyÖ my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, Iíd never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally wonít spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 Iíll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how itís dumb to finance free money?
Winnisquamer is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 01:09 PM   #92
Garcia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 476
Thanks: 102
Thanked 215 Times in 132 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnisquamer View Post
I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?
I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.

Last edited by Garcia; 03-10-2022 at 02:02 PM. Reason: added something
Garcia is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 03:35 PM   #93
mswlogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 639
Thanks: 193
Thanked 222 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnisquamer View Post
Iíve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got luckyÖ my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, Iíd never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally wonít spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 Iíll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how itís dumb to finance free money?
Right. Iíve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought Iíd do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). Itís so completely different. Itís like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for ďcarsĒ with no buyers remorse.
mswlogo is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 07:30 PM   #94
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia View Post
I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.
Not between gas and food... more often between gas and other expenditures/savings. We expect that they will spend more time in the coves and at the sandbars at anchor, and will avoid spending money in other ways.

The increase in gasoline prices means I have less earned income to invest.
John Mercier is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 07:52 PM   #95
VitaBene
Senior Member
 
VitaBene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 3,445
Thanks: 1,504
Thanked 1,570 Times in 797 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
Right. Iíve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought Iíd do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). Itís so completely different. Itís like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for ďcarsĒ with no buyers remorse.
I cant make one work here yet. We just sold an 2018 Tesla X 75D (business partner) for more than we paid 2 years later. Great car and a blast to drive but it batteries were not the new extra range and getting older. 20K to upgrade he said.
VitaBene is offline  
Old 03-10-2022, 09:10 PM   #96
Juiced06GTO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 170
Thanks: 8
Thanked 69 Times in 40 Posts
Default

All this banter over EV's and solar.....Can you guys all just keep an eye out for when the lightly used tirtoons w/250-300hp outboards start hitting the market and give me a heads up? I was thinking about dumping the funship and going toon anyhow, so maybe the gas prices will force a market flood....
Juiced06GTO is offline  
Old 03-11-2022, 08:58 AM   #97
RUGMAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: weirs beach,
Posts: 267
Thanks: 37
Thanked 34 Times in 28 Posts
Default

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.
RUGMAN is offline  
Old 03-11-2022, 09:43 AM   #98
LakeDad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 127
Thanks: 2
Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUGMAN View Post
All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.
This information is widely available. It varies and the numbers are different for everyone, but sometimes, it can make sense.

It will only make more sense as technology advances and fuel costs rise.

However, most people aren’t interested in doing the math (short and long term), they just find it easier to either be for or against EV with no mathematical reason.

Some are pretentious and others are stubborn.
LakeDad is offline  
Old 03-11-2022, 05:08 PM   #99
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 1,786
Thanks: 920
Thanked 768 Times in 466 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUGMAN View Post
All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.
$2,000 or maybe less, depending on your existing electric situation (you need a 220 line). Of course, this money is quickly returned in the form of lower cost/mile, and the charger lasts forever. The last time I did the math, electricity for an EV was about 30% of the price of gas, on an apples to apples basis. Numbers are probably more favorable for an EV today
FlyingScot is offline  
Old 03-11-2022, 07:18 PM   #100
John Mercier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,227
Thanks: 0
Thanked 236 Times in 205 Posts
Default

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?
John Mercier is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 1.01320 seconds