Moultonborough Taxes

[longislander]

Originally Posted by ITD

That's pretty much meaningless. A better list would be the total amount collected for each of those categories for each of those years.

Now that is meaningless ... and that's being kind!

Taxes aren't paid by each category. Do you make four payments for one tax bill?

Those numbers were used at the recent selectboard meeting where the 5.70 tax rate was approved. The unassigned balance was being discussed. The town administrator showed 13.1% and we debated with two selectboard members that it was a good decision to give back $million+ to the taxpayers, last year. The same two selectboard members had wanted to save it for "The Hub".


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...nce-PDF?bidId=

Now, I'm surprised nobody picked the typo of 5.50 instead of 5.70
With all the whining about how the tax rate is too high. The taxes rates are not too high ... look at your assessments. The taxes are higher, but not due mainly to the tax rate.

Originally Posted by ITD

Taxes don't increase unless town meeting or state politicians vote to increase them.

Town meetings don't vote on taxes. They vote on expenditures. The tax rate is set by the NH DRA in the Fall.

https://support.axiomnh.com/support/...tting-process-

[Descant]

What am I missing? The Gilford tax rate in 2022 was $12.25; haven't seen the 2023 bill yet, but waterfront values must be similar to Moultonborough. In many other towns the rate is any where from $14 to $22. A few years ago, a realtor pointed out to me that we had only 1 $1MM dollar home in town. The town next to us had 51 and Moultonborough had 286. There's a lot more that goes into the tax base/total assessed valuation, but it doesn't appear to me that Moultonborough taxpayers have much to complain about. A $1MM house in Gilford pays more than twice what a Moultonborough homeowner pays, but they're not complaining because they believe they're getting value for their dollar, I think. If you're not getting value for your dollar, go to Budget meetings, start a FB group, go to the deliberative session, run for office, etc. etc. Stop whining and crying.

[longislander]

Look at different town rates here:

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.htm

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by Descant

What am I missing? The Gilford tax rate in 2022 was $12.25; haven't seen the 2023 bill yet, but waterfront values must be similar to Moultonborough. In many other towns the rate is any where from $14 to $22. --snip--
If you're not getting value for your dollar, go to Budget meetings, start a FB group, go to the deliberative session, run for office, etc. etc. Stop whining and crying.

Gilford's new tax rate is $10.30 with the following breakdown:

School (Local) - $4.72
School (State) - $1.20
Town - $3.39
County - $0.99

Total assessed valuation for 2023 = $3,506,841,980
Total assessed valuation for 2022 = $2,601,781,920

Valuation went up 34.8% over 2022 and the tax rate went down 15.9%.

The upcoming budget battles will determine just how much our town will spend versus this year. If folks want their taxes to go down or at least stay the same then they need to get involved with budgeting and make sure they vote at Town Meeting. It's OK to vote 'No' on spending measures. It's how we keep control.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by longislander

Now that is meaningless ... and that's being kind!

Taxes aren't paid by each category. Do you make four payments for one tax bill?

Those numbers were used at the recent selectboard meeting where the 5.70 tax rate was approved. The unassigned balance was being discussed. The town administrator showed 13.1% and we debated with two selectboard members that it was a good decision to give back $million+ to the taxpayers, last year. The same two selectboard members had wanted to save it for "The Hub".


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...nce-PDF?bidId=

Now, I'm surprised nobody picked the typo of 5.50 instead of 5.70
With all the whining about how the tax rate is too high. The taxes rates are not too high ... look at your assessments. The taxes are higher, but not due mainly to the tax rate.




Town meetings don't vote on taxes. They vote on expenditures. The tax rate is set by the NH DRA in the Fall.

https://support.axiomnh.com/support/...tting-process-

It's meaningless. What counts is the amount of money voted at town meeting, yes, expenditures, that are funded by tax dollars. Then you have the state expenditures, also voted on by reps and senators, added to the bill, all paid for by taxes plus some fees. Those appropriations, or voted expenditures, are used to set the tax rate. The tax rate is just a number, calculated to raise the money that is to be spent that year.

The information needed to figure out what caused this is available, you just need to look for it, it would be nice if the town and state put it in an easily digestible format..... but that would kill the incorrect assumption that property tax increases are caused by rising property values, the assumption that politicians, at least the ones who understand it, love, because it lets them off the hook.

Were that assumption (taxes rise because of valuation increases) true, in down years, when valuations slacken, taxes would decrease. That doesn't happen. Instead the tax rate would be increased to cover what was appropriated and eventually spent. If the appropriation were increased by the respective votes, taxes would still increase in a year, or period valuations decreased.

The answer is in the spending, not the tax rate. It's pretty simple, but many people are fooled.

[John Mercier]

I think you mean the county. The county would be representatives in that county.

The State education portion of the bill is not collected and redistributed... it just offsets what your school tax would actually be.

The State, or even the federal government, may choose not to make a discretionary grant to the town. But that effect can actually be measured.

That would be State senators, the Governor, Congress or the President stopping the flow of those revenues.

The town receives - and this is not an inclusive list - a portion of State gas taxes, Meals & Rentals, and BPT/BET (should they get educational grants or have individual students using EFA or charter schools).

Other than the push/pull of having a high year then offset of a low year that created a false marker... I think as tummyman pointed out, it really is more of the movement of value toward the water.
Every property may be going up in value, but those are going up faster.

I have a lot of job sites that I am supplying some very high end materials to, and they are all near the water.

[BroadHopper]

John is right. My condo may not be on the lake but I have deeded right to lake access. Tax valuation is based on nearby property sold. I bought my property in 2007 for 98K. My goal is to retire here. Now tax evaluation is $400K! My taxes did not increase fourfold but it more than doubled.

A friend of mine lives near town. In 2009 he paid 85K for his home. He does not have access to the lake but uses the town beach. His valuation today is only 149K. He sees his tax decrease. He's in a better position to retire!

There must be a better way to tax assessment. Perhaps square footage and acreage???

[sky's]

as a builder in this area you dont need to use fancy words or numbers. the population has exploded and all the poison is moving into this area and has been for several years. the municipalities will need to be be increased to support fire, first responders etc. this is reality folks Moultonboro has turned into a small Boston Suburb. enjoy.

[tis]

Originally Posted by sky's

as a builder in this area you dont need to use fancy words or numbers. the population has exploded and all the poison is moving into this area and has been for several years. the municipalities will need to be be increased to support fire, first responders etc. this is reality folks Moultonboro has turned into a small Boston Suburb. enjoy.

I have no problem with fire, police etc. What I have a problem with is all the frilly things that IMHO should not be part of a town budget. But everybody has their favorite little project and that's how it builds. And I think the schools are out of control. It's probably a lot because of government regulations but we have more administration in schools than we do teachers. We spend more than ever on schools and education is not better.

[longislander]

Assessment's are based on market values, no matter whom your town utilizes or contracts to determine those values.

Assessments x tax rate = Tax

Should be easy to understand.

Tax rates do go up and down. Take another look at the 35 year MoBo history. Facts, not opinion.

NH DRA sets the tax rate. The town voters set the appropriations.

The MoBo history included, has the 35 year relevant history for all 4 elements of the tax rate:

Municipal + County + State Ed. + Local Ed. = total tax rate


Shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.

[longislander]

Moultonboro has turned into a small Boston Suburb.

Some of us attended a Moultonborough school board meeting Tuesday. The meeting was different than usual because it was requested to have the school board, selectboard, Capital Improvements Program Committee, Advisory Budget Committee get together to discuss the school board's activity to renovate the schools .... out of the blue. They hired a consultant to tell them what is wrong with the school buildings. They're kicking around a number of $44-$45 million. The school has a declining student population; around 480 "kids" k-12 presently. The buildings, a couple of them, are 20 and 40 years old, I think.

The school board has no clue on a plan. The school board is a separate legal governing body, with it own Wishlist of expenditure's.

You MoBo residents need to plan on attending the annual school district meeting and vote on the warrant articles the school board will submit. That annual meeting is in March. The town annual meeting is in May.

The annual school district meeting had about 70 of us that bothered to attend. It lasted all of 8:58 minutes for a $17 million dollar budget! It's on youtube. The town meeting meeting had to be re-scheduled because too many voters showed up to vote on The Hub. The town budget was $10 million.

You'll note that local ed. is part of the tax rate, although the annual town meeting doesn't vote on those expenditures ... the annual school meeting voters do. Yes, the same potential voters but voters that attend the school meeting have been under the radar.

[tis]

Originally Posted by longislander

Assessment's are based on market values, no matter whom your town utilizes or contracts to determine those values.

Assessments x tax rate = Tax

Should be easy to understand.

Tax rates do go up and down. Take another look at the 35 year MoBo history. Facts, not opinion.

NH DRA sets the tax rate. The town voters set the appropriations.

The MoBo history included, has the 35 year relevant history for all 4 elements of the tax rate:

Municipal + County + State Ed. + Local Ed. = total tax rate


Shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.

I bet most of the times the rate went down is when the assessment went up. I would like to know if it ever went down when assessment DIDN'T go up. Also when assessed higher and the rate goes down it just gives them a chance to gradually each year go up and up and still brag that they have a low rate.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by longislander

Assessment's are based on market values, no matter whom your town utilizes or contracts to determine those values.

Assessments x tax rate = Tax

Should be easy to understand.

Tax rates do go up and down. Take another look at the 35 year MoBo history. Facts, not opinion.

NH DRA sets the tax rate. The town voters set the appropriations.

The MoBo history included, has the 35 year relevant history for all 4 elements of the tax rate:

Municipal + County + State Ed. + Local Ed. = total tax rate


Shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.

Ok, apparently this is difficult to understand. How is the tax rate calculated, what determines how much tax is collected? Let's start with the town and then work our way up the chain.

[longislander]

The towns are required to submit to the NH DRA many forms, with data before tax rates are approved.

Then, Tax rates ... by the NH DRA ... then ....

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...ation-data.pdf

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.htm

I'm heading out the door to Wolfeboro, but will take a look back at the forum later this evening, if we can chat some more.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by ITD

Ok, apparently this is difficult to understand. How is the tax rate calculated, what determines how much tax is collected? Let's start with the town and then work our way up the chain.

Each category has a budget that is enacted. The category also has offsets - other revenue (grants/etc). The DRA takes the budget minuses the offsets and that supplies them with what must be raised by the property tax.

That amount is then divided the total property tax within the district (gets a little more complex with multi-district schools due to agreed upon funding formulas).

So if the town needs to raise $50M per budget, but has offsets of $5M, then the property tax must raise $45M. The DRA takes the $45M and divides it by total property valuation within the town. That sets the municipal rate.

The DRA continues down the line until each category rate is set. The category rates added together is the total rate that we are looking at.

The total rate is multiplied by assessed value (fair market value) divided by 1000 and that is your tax.

So a town budget can stay exactly the same... but the loss of a revenue offset can make the amount to be raised by property taxes higher.

The same can happen with the school and county budgets.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Each category has a budget that is enacted. The category also has offsets - other revenue (grants/etc). The DRA takes the budget minuses the offsets and that supplies them with what must be raised by the property tax.

That amount is then divided the total property tax within the district (gets a little more complex with multi-district schools due to agreed upon funding formulas).

So if the town needs to raise $50M per budget, but has offsets of $5M, then the property tax must raise $45M. The DRA takes the $45M and divides it by total property valuation within the town. That sets the municipal rate.

The DRA continues down the line until each category rate is set. The category rates added together is the total rate that we are looking at.

The total rate is multiplied by assessed value (fair market value) divided by 1000 and that is your tax.

So a town budget can stay exactly the same... but the loss of a revenue offset can make the amount to be raised by property taxes higher.

The same can happen with the school and county budgets.

The town budget always goes up. But to your point, the tax rate is a ratio calculated to collect what " must be raised by the property tax." The tax rate is a meaningless number to determine if or by how much taxes have gone up or down.

Once again, this is a very important point. All the taxes we pay are voted into being, or law, by either town meeting or our representatives. Taxes do not increase due to new assessments. That is unless your property has appreciated faster than the average of everyone else's increase, but that's another discussion.

[camp guy]

Every year the question of taxes is beat to death on this Forum, and after a while, people finally begin to realize he complexity of calculating the tax rate, and that each Town, for the matter, each property, the tax rate is unique. To really know about taxes year after year, drag out your last year's checkbook and see what you paid - if it is more, your taxes went up, if it is less, your taxes went down. And that is the simplest explanation possible.

[jeffk]

Why are people "entitled" to a house on the lake or a house with lake access?

I bought a Moultonborough lake house in 1994 and I knew the tax structure then (it had already worked the way it does for quite a while). I knew that waterfront property would escalate in value and shift ever more tax proportionately to me. I planned to retire to the lake but my personal situation changed and I couldn't afford the lake house in retirement. I sold it, got a nice chunk of change for my retirement, and now live in a nice house (not on the lake) in Center Harbor. It quite nicely fits my retirement budget and, as observed, my taxes are much more stable and affordable. Friends of ours did the same thing and have been very happy in their non lake house with affordable taxes in Meredith for many years.

Why should lake owners be entitled to shift the taxes to other people so that they can keep their preferable house? Should the rest of the taxpayers be required to set aside some cash to allow lakefront owners to buy a Mercedes because that's more preferable than a Toyota?

The present property tax structure is reality and is unlikely to change. The state would have to decide that "helping" a small number of advantaged property owners and shifting the tax burden to non advantaged property owners would be workable. Since there are a LOT more NON advantaged property owners AND voters than advantaged owners, it would NOT be politically smart to consider this.

Confront the reality of the tax situation and do what you have to to fit your personal situation.

[tis]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Why are people "entitled" to a house on the lake or a house with lake access?

I bought a Moultonborough lake house in 1994 and I knew the tax structure then (it had already worked the way it does for quite a while). I knew that waterfront property would escalate in value and shift ever more tax proportionately to me. I planned to retire to the lake but my personal situation changed and I couldn't afford the lake house in retirement. I sold it, got a nice chunk of change for my retirement, and now live in a nice house (not on the lake) in Center Harbor. It quite nicely fits my retirement budget and, as observed, my taxes are much more stable and affordable. Friends of ours did the same thing and have been very happy in their non lake house with affordable taxes in Meredith for many years.

Why should lake owners be entitled to shift the taxes to other people so that they can keep their preferable house? Should the rest of the taxpayers be required to set aside some cash to allow lakefront owners to buy a Mercedes because that's more preferable than a Toyota?

The present property tax structure is reality and is unlikely to change. The state would have to decide that "helping" a small number of advantaged property owners and shifting the tax burden to non advantaged property owners would be workable. Since there are a LOT more NON advantaged property owners AND voters than advantaged owners, it would NOT be politically smart to consider this.

Confront the reality of the tax situation and do what you have to to fit your personal situation.

This is exactly what I worry about, that eventually many will decide they can't or won't pay the taxes any more so will sell. Then what will the towns do?

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

This is exactly what I worry about, that eventually many will decide they can't or won't pay the taxes any more so will sell. Then what will the towns do?

Tax the people that buy them.
For a property to be sold, there must be a buyer.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Tax the people that buy them.
For a property to be sold, there must be a buyer.

That is assuming there continues to be buyers.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by tis

That is assuming there continues to be buyers.

There are always buyers, it's just the amount of $$$$$ that change.
Sometimes it goes up and sometimes it goes down, but it's always feels like it's too much when you're a buyer and not enough when you're a seller!

[tis]

Originally Posted by Biggd

There are always buyers, it's just the amount of $$$$$ that change.
Sometimes it goes up and sometimes it goes down, but it's always feels like it's too much when you're a buyer and not enough when you're a seller!

There always have been buyers. But will taxes reach a point where there won't be enough buyers ?

[John Mercier]

If a property is to be sold... there must be a buyer.

What you are asking is will market value have to fall (sell for less) to get a buyer.

That would be an equilibrium. The falling fair market values would create a lower assessment and begin shifting the ratio away from waterfront.

So far, it hasn't happened even in other surrounding towns that have higher tax rates.
Interest rates could play a role, but long cycle dynamics are in opposition to that outcome.

[mishman]

John - if you can private message me I would appreciate it. Thanks

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by tis

There always have been buyers. But will taxes reach a point where there won't be enough buyers ?

Prime waterfront will always be in high demand because there's a limited supply. Unfortunately, it will only be the wealthy that will be buying.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Prime waterfront will always be in high demand because there's a limited supply. Unfortunately, it will only be the wealthy that will be buying.

It probably will, but none of us knows if there is a point of no return when even people with plenty of money will decide they don't want to pay those kind of taxes for a couple of month a year which will drastically reduce buyers. It's just that I hear lots of people with the ability to pay discuss this and I wonder if it will ever come to be.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by tis

This is exactly what I worry about, that eventually many will decide they can't or won't pay the taxes any more so will sell. Then what will the towns do?

I'm not sure that this is a concern for the towns. Whoever BOUGHT an expensive lakefront property should also have the ability to pay the higher taxes. So far there seem to be plenty of buyers, even at high prices.

At some point, there will be a market slump. Current owners will still be able to sell, just at somewhat reduced prices. As the lower lake values are factored in, some of the tax responsibility will be shifted away from the lake owners to the non lake residents. Then you will hear non lake residents groaning about their taxes going up, ... until the next boom cycle.

Effectively, rising lake home prices guarantee that taxes will proportionately shift more to those houses. The silver lining is that if you DO need to sell, you will get more for your lake home without having to do anything to improve it.

In fact, if you are in the position of not being able to afford the taxes, NOW is a time to consider selling while prices are still high and you can get the most benefit. Also consider, every year that you spend in a house with taxes you can barely afford, you are depleting your resources, never to get the money back. Say you are pulling $5,000 out of savings every year to pay taxes. After 10 years, you are down $50,000. That money could have been spent on some nice vacation getaways. Or money for a needed new car. Some future planning may show you would be smart to get away from the high taxes NOW, rather than later after all the tax damage is done. Also, is your lake house needing big repairs (new roof, septic, flooring ...) that you cannot afford. If you sell, you can afford another house in great condition. It's a personal choice BUT it's also driven by hard economic realities.

[rsmlp]

been a lakefront owner since 1997. taxes/ unit of market value are quite low in 03254 compared to other towns and reasonable compared to other states. it seems like people are complaining that their property values have increased and they don't like that their taxes have increased commensurately.

move?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

been a lakefront owner since 1997. taxes/ unit of market value are quite low in 03254 compared to other towns and reasonable compared to other states. it seems like people are complaining that their property values have increased and they don't like that their taxes have increased commensurately.

move?

I have no problem with Property Values going up, and I have no problem with Taxes going up.....

What I do have a problem with it both taking place in the same year, at the rate in which they did... That tells me that somewhere something is not be kept in check.... Once again I will stick to the math of it all.......

using the Figures from Tummyman, and starting with the Tax rate, we would have had last year with this year property values $4.14

We add the addition of "extra cash" and the reduced income which I am fine with and can understand we get too 4.71 and ok that is reasonable and I would have a tax bill of ~5200$ which is inline with my 2021 tax bill..... And to me that is reasonable. But I do know the cost of things have gone up, so I expect a increase from there....

Where we start to encounter questions is from the additional $0.99..... on a personal level for me I see that as an $1000 of additional Taxes.... But now lets play that out further at the Town of Multonborough level, which has $5.6B worth of property value.... That is over 5.5M dollars worth of additional funding.....

I don't care who you are that is a lot of additional Cabbage, So where is it all going.... What is being done with the money.... Have the towns spending needs changed that much? I would be very suprised by that....

Now had the tax increase been 1/3 of that 99 cents so 33 cents... which would have been 1.8M dollars of additional funding at the town level and 363$ passed on to a homeowner... I wouldn't have batted and eye.... I probably would have rationalized 50 cents per thousand additional....

I do agree that overall the Tax rate for Moultonborough is very low... which is what leads to the property especially on the water being so desirable... And why in my estimation, there will never be a problem selling waterfront property in Moultonborough.... The Town and the State know this... And Moultonborugh isn't the only town that sees this overall all the Winnipesaukee towns have a low tax rate.... Mostly because there Municipal and Local Ed. needs are minimal, do to the very low permanent resident population. I think locally the spending in Moultonborough is very frugal, and I don't have concerns at that level, I do have concerns at the County and State levels however, which come down and have an effect on our property Taxes....

Here is the food for thought once again with Numbers, According to publicly available forms, the valuation of property for all of New Hampshire is ~$200B..... an increase accross the board of 33 Cents per thousand is ~$100M.....

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I have no problem with Property Values going up, and I have no problem with Taxes going up.....

What I do have a problem with it both taking place in the same year, at the rate in which they did... That tells me that somewhere something is not be kept in check.... Once again I will stick to the math of it all.......

using the Figures from Tummyman, and starting with the Tax rate, we would have had last year with this year property values $4.14

We add the addition of "extra cash" and the reduced income which I am fine with and can understand we get too 4.71 and ok that is reasonable and I would have a tax bill of ~5200$ which is inline with my 2021 tax bill..... And to me that is reasonable. But I do know the cost of things have gone up, so I expect a increase from there....

Where we start to encounter questions is from the additional $0.99..... on a personal level for me I see that as an $1000 of additional Taxes.... But now lets play that out further at the Town of Multonborough level, which has $5.6B worth of property value.... That is over 5.5M dollars worth of additional funding.....

I don't care who you are that is a lot of additional Cabbage, So where is it all going.... What is being done with the money.... Have the towns spending needs changed that much? I would be very suprised by that....

Now had the tax increase been 1/3 of that 99 cents so 33 cents... which would have been 1.8M dollars of additional funding at the town level and 363$ passed on to a homeowner... I wouldn't have batted and eye.... I probably would have rationalized 50 cents per thousand additional....

I do agree that overall the Tax rate for Moultonborough is very low... which is what leads to the property especially on the water being so desirable... And why in my estimation, there will never be a problem selling waterfront property in Moultonborough.... The Town and the State know this... And Moultonborugh isn't the only town that sees this overall all the Winnipesaukee towns have a low tax rate.... Mostly because there Municipal and Local Ed. needs are minimal, do to the very low permanent resident population. I think locally the spending in Moultonborough is very frugal, and I don't have concerns at that level, I do have concerns at the County and State levels however, which come down and have an effect on our property Taxes....

Here is the food for thought once again with Numbers, According to publicly available forms, the valuation of property for all of New Hampshire is ~$200B..... an increase accross the board of 33 Cents per thousand is ~$100M.....

The county would be your State Representatives voting on the county budget... and the State ED hasn't changed to my knowledge, and the money never leaves Moultonborough.

If you think the number is off... that the municipal budget and divide it by total town property valuation. From what tummyman stated, you do not have a ''buy down'' of the taxes this year like you did last year; so that simple math should be reasonably accurate in the final number.

[LIforrelaxin]

So I just found some interesting reading , regarding the town of Moultonborough, expenditures and overall budget...

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...ant--Budgetpdf

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...Town-Budgetpdf

What did this help me understand?
- The School Budget is not accounted for as part of the Town Budget...
- A clear run done of all the proposals from last year... Not sure what was voted down, beyond the HUB... but I am sure I can find those results somewhere... all the the rest of it seemed reasonable....
- The town and school budgets combined come out to around $27M
- Already Known, amount of taxes to the County ~$5M
- Already known, amount of Tax Revenue from Property Tax is ~$34M

So at this point there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-2 Million dollars unaccounted for.... This is closer to what John M. has been trying to preach then I thought... But tells me our property Tax money isn't all accounted for at the local level...

Do I feel any better about the current situation, no absolutely not... I feel like there where parallel efforts going on, and the impact of both resulted in this issue. The effects of the Increase in valuations, was not fully understood before setting the Tax Rate.... It will be interesting to see what happens next year...

[Descant]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So I just found some interesting reading , regarding the town of Moultonborough, expenditures and overall budget...

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...ant--Budgetpdf

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...Town-Budgetpdf

What did this help me understand?
- The School Budget is not accounted for as part of the Town Budget...
- A clear run done of all the proposals from last year... Not sure what was voted down, beyond the HUB... but I am sure I can find those results somewhere... all the the rest of it seemed reasonable....
- The town and school budgets combined come out to around $27M
- Already Known, amount of taxes to the County ~$5M
- Already known, amount of Tax Revenue from Property Tax is ~$34M

So at this point there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-2 Million dollars unaccounted for.... This is closer to what John M. has been trying to preach then I thought... But tells me our property Tax money isn't all accounted for at the local level...

Do I feel any better about the current situation, no absolutely not... I feel like there where parallel efforts going on, and the impact of both resulted in this issue. The effects of the Increase in valuations, was not fully understood before setting the Tax Rate.... It will be interesting to see what happens next year...

So, 27 for town and school and 5 for the county. How much for the state wide education fund? That should be the amount you're missing.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Descant

So, 27 for town and school and 5 for the county. How much for the state wide education fund? That should be the amount you're missing.

Correct, I do anticipate that that amount, is the amount going to the State and getting dispersed else where for "education funding"...

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Correct, I do anticipate that that amount, is the amount going to the State and getting dispersed else where for "education funding"...

Then you would be incorrect. No property tax is sent to the State for to be redistributed; that has been the case since 2011.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Then you would be incorrect. No property tax is sent to the State for to be redistributed; that has been the case since 2011.

Then can you explain why the school portion of our tax bill is broken into two parts-state tax and local tax? I don't have a tax bill in front of me but I am pretty sure that is the cases.

[BroadHopper]

https://newhampshirebulletin.com/202...utionally-low/

[Sue Doe-Nym]

There is a most interesting and compelling letter in today’s Laconia Daily Sun, written by one of our posters. The proposals being presented for renovations to Moultonborough’ schools are stunning, and will run in the $44 to $45 MILLION
taxpayer dollar range! Very few voters bother to show up for the March meeting when votes are cast regarding the school budget. The poster’s point is well taken: don’t complain about your taxes; SHOW UP and vote! Otherwise, the bloated school budget will be rubber stamped, as usual, and the insane spending will continue.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Then can you explain why the school portion of our tax bill is broken into two parts-state tax and local tax? I don't have a tax bill in front of me but I am pretty sure that is the cases.

That is the case... as explained above.

Each school district based on the number of pupils and specified modifiers in the law is to receive a State grant equal to that number. In a school where the State Ed rate raises enough, or more than enough, money... the school is sent no grant.
In a school where the State Ed rate does not raise enough money, the State sends a grant from other sources.

The State Ed grants are used to offset the Local School portion of the tax. In a school where the State Ed rate raises more than necessary... the money is retained and further offsets the Local School portion.

There is two ongoing lawsuits over the current method as the change in 2011 was found to be unconstitutional; and the current adequacy levels are being challenged as to whether they cover the mandates.

The State of NH lost the first round in both. The NHSC heard the case, but deferred it back to the lower court.

https://fairfundingnh.org/lawsuit-conval/

[longislander]

https://www.unionleader.com/news/cou...399970b34.html


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...1ee7d7c90.html

[LIforrelaxin]

Educational funding has been at the heart of many conversations around Property Taxes for years. Despite John Mercer's statement that Money from property Tax, doesn't go to the state I don't believe it. Otherwise why is there a State Education line item.

From the beginning when education funding became a poblem, band-aids are all that have ever been applied.... NH has never created a structure that will effectively ensure education is properly funded....

John, if you could provide some RSA number the show that your statement about no local funding going to the state for education, I would be more inclined to accept the statement.

[John Mercier]

Because the State uses it for accounting purposes.
Should a school district not raise enough from the State Ed Property Tax to cover the per pupil education grant number with modifiers from the State, the State sends money (usually collected from Business Taxes... but other non-dedicated sources can be used) to cover the difference.

The ConVal lawsuits, I put them together but they are separate, argue that the State education adequacy numbers do not cover the mandates as required; and the other argues that allowing the district to retain excess State Ed property tax is unconstitutional.

You will know when it changes... the State Ed rate will jump by an estimated three to four times the current amount, and your School rate will increase for the offset of what it does not get to retain.

It sounds like more of you need to pay attention to your taxes and what they are being used for.

[longislander]

Results of town meetings on town website. Been available a long time.
UNH also has online annual reports for most towns going way back

Town
https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/402...eeting-Minutes
https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/254...rrant-Articles
https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Archive.aspx?AMID=44

"Proposed Budget
Moultonborough
For the period beginning July 1, 2023 and ending June 30, 2024"
The NH DRA form MS-636 for the town is on page 43

The ABC, advisory budget committee is just that, advisory to the select board. The select board may or may not follow advice.
The 2023 annual report comes out early 2024 showing 2024 warrant with the 2023 town meeting results.

Since the school board is a legally separate "governing body", just as the select board is the legal "governing body" of the town, it has its own budget and legally required annual meeting (analogous to town meeting).

School
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...oscUask58kYlst

Click on download file, like the 2023 annual report
The download file (from cloud) for the school district takes a while.
For the 2023 annual report and budget see page 32; the MS-26

[ITD]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So I just found some interesting reading , regarding the town of Moultonborough, expenditures and overall budget...

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...ant--Budgetpdf

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Doc...Town-Budgetpdf

What did this help me understand?
- The School Budget is not accounted for as part of the Town Budget...
- A clear run done of all the proposals from last year... Not sure what was voted down, beyond the HUB... but I am sure I can find those results somewhere... all the the rest of it seemed reasonable....
- The town and school budgets combined come out to around $27M
- Already Known, amount of taxes to the County ~$5M
- Already known, amount of Tax Revenue from Property Tax is ~$34M

So at this point there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-2 Million dollars unaccounted for.... This is closer to what John M. has been trying to preach then I thought... But tells me our property Tax money isn't all accounted for at the local level...

Do I feel any better about the current situation, no absolutely not... I feel like there where parallel efforts going on, and the impact of both resulted in this issue. The effects of the Increase in valuations, was not fully understood before setting the Tax Rate.... It will be interesting to see what happens next year...

The town reports give an accounting of what was actually spent. It should follow pretty closely to what was voted on the year before. A nice summary from year to year would be very helpful, but it generally takes cajoling from the public to make that happen. Everything spent is voted on at town meeting for the town expenses. There are no surprises, no bonus money brought forth by rising values. Rising property values do not increase the amount collected. What does come in extra is new properties added to the tax rolls in a given year. But technically that should not be spent unless it is voted on.

I hate to keep beating this horse, but it is very important for taxpayers to understand, not a penny is spent with out a vote from town meeting. The only exception to that would be some immediate emergency that does not allow enough time to put into a budget and voted. Those should be few and far between.

Once again, there are politicians that like it when they aren't held accountable for rising taxes because the public thinks assessments cause the increases. Then there are politicians who don't understand either.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/252...l-Town-Reports

[Pineedles]

Okay here is my complaint. Although my tax for waterfront property, owned since 1882 is now 45% higher than last year, I don’t like it but it is what it is. My second bill is 117% higher than last year’s, but that’s not it. My complaint is that they want this amount a full month before their normal billing cycle. People have to budget things! That’s what really riles me!

One last thing mr. assessor I know the land value goes up but please don’t tell me my building has appreciated in value. It’s a 141 year old lake cottage, uninsulated, not heated, and only occupied 4 months out of the year. If it wasn’t owned by a group of descendants of the original builder it would have gone the way a lot of lake cottages have gone. Torn down and a McMansion put up.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

Okay here is my complaint. Although my tax for waterfront property, owned since 1882 is now 45% higher than last year, I don’t like it but it is what it is. My second bill is 117% higher than last year’s, but that’s not it. My complaint is that they want this amount a full month before their normal billing cycle. People have to budget things! That’s what really riles me!

One last thing mr. assessor I know the land value goes up but please don’t tell me my building has appreciated in value. It’s a 141 year old lake cottage, uninsulated, not heated, and only occupied 4 months out of the year. If it wasn’t owned by a group of descendants of the original builder it would have gone the way a lot of lake cottages have gone. Torn down and a McMansion put up.

Same here. The cottage was built by my great-granddad in 1892. A 2 BR fishing cottage as you see on "Golden Pond". When the education mess started rearranging tax evaluations in the '90s, taxes tripled! We never made any major improvements and we were on a dirt road shared by a dozen cottages that the town will not take responsibility for. During the recession in the late 90s. It was the last straw; the family sold the heirloom. The family bought a condo off Lake Winnisquam, although 3 streets from the lake we had beach rights. Today, because of taxes we are yet again forced from our retirement dreams. It is never-ending!

By the way, the guy who bought the cottage built a McMansion, ran afoul with wetlands, and put it on the market. Eventually, he sold it at auction. Payback!

[tis]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Same here. The cottage was built by my great-granddad in 1892. A 2 BR fishing cottage as you see on "Golden Pond". When the education mess started rearranging tax evaluations in the '90s, taxes tripled! We never made any major improvements and we were on a dirt road shared by a dozen cottages that the town will not take responsibility for. During the recession in the late 90s. It was the last straw; the family sold the heirloom. The family bought a condo off Lake Winnisquam, although 3 streets from the lake we had beach rights. Today, because of taxes we are yet again forced from our retirement dreams. It is never-ending!

By the way, the guy who bought the cottage built a McMansion, ran afoul with wetlands, and put it on the market. Eventually, he sold it at auction. Payback!

You made my point.

[Biggd]

Here in Meredith, still waiting for my bill, my assessment went up 33%.
Hopefully my bill doesn't go up that much.

[John Mercier]

The ''education mess'' did not exist. It is only in the mind's of a few that aren't educated on the subject. At the time that the State Ed tax was added, around $20 million was being transferred from around 60 communities in the State to other locations... not a sizeable transfer... so Governor Lynch was willing to get rid of it in 2011 - even when it was more, but not much more than the original $20M

The assessing method is to use what it would currently sell for.
Our buildings went up in value because the cost of replacing them with a like structure has skyrocketed..
In 2016, we sold #1 2x4x8 common studs for a little over $3, by 2018 that had increased to the point that the same stud would go for three times that amount.
I had to change several window and door options out when framing costs skyrocketed after the softwood tariff imposed against Canada. In 2019, Covid hit... thousands/tens of thousands of summer homes became the primary residence for refugees from the big cities to our south and a building boom went from hypersonic to lightspeed. It caused lead times to move from weeks to months and created a complete shortage in pressure treated lumber. None could be found anywhere for any amount of money. We sold the year's supply before June.
We now have material somewhat moving down... some shortages and delays... as most builders could tell you... but we have no labor pool - so the cost of the labor to build is much higher and moving higher every day.

Regardless of how old a building is... the assessor is probably only going to depreciate it by 50% at best. And if kept in good shape... a lot less than that... because an existing building is still better than one that may not exist for another two to three years waiting for the labor and having to meet the new code. The demand for existing in any shape is now phenomenal, and anything near the lake that might be occupied and renovated has doubled to tripled in the last year or so... even on the smaller lakes.

It is doubtful that assessments will go down as more Boomers retire to the area. The demand for existing homes and renovations I suspect will continue throughout this decade, and the shortage of labor should worsen to the point that new builds will slow even further..

[ITD]

So where did the money for the buy down of the tax rate come from last year? Someone told me it came from the capitol reserves, which needed to be replenished this year.


I looked at the town annual report for last year, and of course, there was a nice graph in there of the tax rate. Totally useless and meaningless by itself, no wonder people confuse the relevance of this number. Almost by design.

A much more useful graph would be the total town expenditures year to year along with total school expenditures year to year.

Since county and state numbers are included in the report, more graphs showing how much Moultonboro money is collected for each of those categories year to year would be very helpful.

About a 10 year look back would give a great picture of how we got here.

[John Mercier]

If the town voted for the increase... it really isn't the politicians.

I'm sure over time the desire for lakefront on Winnepesuakee will cool. It is just as easy to leave I-93 and end up on Newfound or Winnisquam.

[longislander]

Being leery of awakening the forum "opinion-appraisers/assessors", thought I'd submit my last comment on this thread (I know ... thank God!).

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...asb-manual.pdf

Has a lot of "stuff" with links that might be interesting when bored or glassy eyed. No ... I'm not trying to get in the last word ... and don't believe it will be.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

If the town voted for the increase... it really isn't the politicians.

I'm sure over time the desire for lakefront on Winnepesuakee will cool. It is just as easy to leave I-93 and end up on Newfound or Winnisquam.

Where do you suppose the idea for the increase came from?

[John Mercier]

From tummyman's numbers... it came from no longer having excess funds lying around that you can buy down the tax rate with.

If I tax you $1M in excess one year, and then the next year return it to buy down the tax rate, you can guess that the third year is going to go up without the buy down.

That would mean the tax rate from 2021 and back would be higher than necessary... not specifically this one. As those would be the rates that created the surplus for the buy down to happen last year.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by jeffk

Why are people "entitled" to a house on the lake or a house with lake access?

I bought a Moultonborough lake house in 1994 and I knew the tax structure then (it had already worked the way it does for quite a while). I knew that waterfront property would escalate in value and shift ever more tax proportionately to me. I planned to retire to the lake but my personal situation changed and I couldn't afford the lake house in retirement. I sold it, got a nice chunk of change for my retirement, and now live in a nice house (not on the lake) in Center Harbor. It quite nicely fits my retirement budget and, as observed, my taxes are much more stable and affordable. Friends of ours did the same thing and have been very happy in their non lake house with affordable taxes in Meredith for many years.

Why should lake owners be entitled to shift the taxes to other people so that they can keep their preferable house? Should the rest of the taxpayers be required to set aside some cash to allow lakefront owners to buy a Mercedes because that's more preferable than a Toyota?

The present property tax structure is reality and is unlikely to change. The state would have to decide that "helping" a small number of advantaged property owners and shifting the tax burden to non advantaged property owners would be workable. Since there are a LOT more NON advantaged property owners AND voters than advantaged owners, it would NOT be politically smart to consider this.

Confront the reality of the tax situation and do what you have to to fit your personal situation.

I agree, but I do think long time residential owners should get some kind of tax reduction.
People that have owned waterfront property for many years shouldn't be forced to sell because they can no longer afford the taxes, no matter how much their property has increased in value.
In my hometown in Ma, because we have so many rental properties, residential owners who live full time in their properties get a 20% reduction on their property taxes. If you have a multifamily and you live in one unit you get a discount on that portion of the property.

[longislander]

Personally, I've never been a lakefront owner; lake access yes, on Longisland. Bought the property in1974, built a house, sold it five years ago; neighborhood went to hell. I should change my handle from Longislander to Moultonboro Necker. Prefer to look at the ever changing view of the mountains, especially Mt. Washington than the lake.

I don't begrudge lakefront owners. Their choice.

Moultonborough, according to gov't census, has around 5,000 residents' about 1,000 increase from the 2010 to 2020 census. What the censuses don't show is the summer influx of second homeowners and renters. The town blooms, like cyanobacteria, to 25,000-40,000 folks, mainly out-of-staters.

Happy to see the out-of-state plates. They cannot legally vote, but help the local economy.