Human Powered Snowthingee

[Mee-n-Mac]

wacky idea warning .... wacky idea warning ... wacky idea warning

OK, you were warned ! While pondering our F1 crib over a Black Russian (or 4) this weekend the thought of a HPV, akin to a snowmobile perhaps, surfaced. I did a little searching but found nothing to suggest that such device had yet been constructed. I thought for limited usage, crawling about the lake and such, it might be fun. Upon further thought it occurred to me that perhaps instead of creating my own tracks (see below) I could get by with some low pressure knobby tires. So I ask people who use ATVs out on the lake, how well do the tires grip in ice and/or snow ? Remember that with human power ("Mee" says, you, ? human ? ) I won't have anything like an ATVs torque but that may be a good thing.

See the "SnowPod" @
http://www.mobilityeng.com/

FWIW : I was envisioning something using chain and cycle parts but leg powered, like recumbent bike, perhaps side-by-side tandem.

[Skip]

Hmmmm,

Methinks maybe you should have had a fifth Black Russian, and forgot the idea alltogether!

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Skip

Hmmmm,

Methinks maybe you should have had a fifth Black Russian, and forgot the idea alltogether!

So the propulsion system goes from tracks to knobbies to ... yaktrax. I also envisioned a lifting foot system alternated between 2 feet that were alternately lifted up, advanced and then put back down. No doubt got that idea from the old BattleBots show.

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So the propulsion system goes from tracks to knobbies to ... yaktrax. I also envisioned a lifting foot system alternated between 2 feet that were alternately lifted up, advanced and then put back down. No doubt got that idea from the old BattleBots show.

Its only the second week of January and it seems like you have cabin fever. Go outside take a long walk and clear your mind or have a frosty cold one and cloud it even more.

[Mee-n-Mac]

So what to do when insommnia strikes ? Envision a stunning victory over all other bed-racers as they fall to the ground in fits of laughter and derision. Well yes of course you do that ... it's a given. But what else do you do. Naturally you draw up that nagging thought that won't die a peaceful death. You breathe life and give form to that nebulous concept. Then you present it for the amusement of your peers. And on that note ....

[secondcurve]

Mac:

A little off topic, but I am curious how the wedding plans are coming along. Are you still on track to take a fall or have you come to your senses? Then again, maybe MEE has come to her senses?

[upthesaukee]

How about adding a derailleur to the axle end, making it like a five speed or so? Get started in low gear, gain some speed and start shifting up, and as we find ourselves motoring down the lake or trail, pretty much up on a plane, get some reasonable speed out of the machine, hopefully without expending too much energy. Get really crazy, and add a sprocket derailleur as well. How about disc brakes on the rear wheels? My goodness, man, the possibilities are endless.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Yup, I figured the only way I'd get the thing to start moving w/me aboard was to have some gearing like a bicycle. I figured on multiple gears and derailleurs on the forward and intermediate sprockets. I'm still unsure as to whether the rear end should be independant suspension or just 1 axle w/2 tires. Coming off the original concept of a track to 2 close tires seems like a natural progression but with soft, low pressures I get worried about the roll stability (tippiness) at the rear end. So going with wider spacing of the wheels would mean independant suspension and dual chains (1 to each wheel). The wheels should have freewheeling capability just like a bike does. As to brakes ... hmmm ... guess I should have some just in case it does get into motion somehow. Somebody had suggested mountain bike wheels and tires in place of the knobbies as mentioned earlier. Still not sure how much grip I need or can get from either type of tire. Then again I guess I could add "studs" like an ice racer does. Haven't figured out whether the steering should be cable or some salvaged boat hydraulics. I like the latter idea but I'm thinking of FLL levels of frugality here. Of course the seats have to slide fore/aft to fit different people to the fixed pedal cranks.

SC - yes still on track to take a fall this fall. Got to get my fun stuff done now while I still have a life ... ouch ! stop !! aaargh ....

[gtxrider]

I would stay away from hydraulic steering which would most likely necessitate some sort of pump. How would you drive the pump? Looking at your drawing I thought of the type of steering used on go karts, simple but effective. I agree that it would be beneficial to employ some sort of gearing to make starting off from a dead stop easier.

Can you add a mast and sail for those windy days?

[Orion]

While this is truly a fun idea to contemplate, and I am all in favor of human-powered craft (I have a Surfbike), I believe that there is way too much resistance in traveling through snow to make this practical. It might be OK in packed-down snow, but any sort of depth is going to kill ya after about about 100 yards. And you can forget about getting out of first gear unless you're going downhill! That's probably why you never see any. But keep thinking! I love inventions.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Orion

While this is truly a fun idea to contemplate, and I am all in favor of human-powered craft (I have a Surfbike), I believe that there is way too much resistance in traveling through snow to make this practical. It might be OK in packed-down snow, but any sort of depth is going to kill ya after about about 100 yards. And you can forget about getting out of first gear unless you're going downhill! That's probably why you never see any. But keep thinking! I love inventions.

You're probably correct in that you wouldn't be able to use the HPS to go bust some new trails but then I was really only thinking of using it to go out and about on the lake when there's ice and/or packed snow. Certainly going to a wheeled configuration, vs a tracked one, is more limiting in this regard. Perhaps the thing to do is really follow the KISS principle for prototype 1A, no suspension (let the air tires do it) and just a low gear. Build it and see what works and what doesn't. Probably wouldn't take more than a weekend or 2, if I had the materials. If only I could find a way around having to "register" a powered "vehicle". I could whip up a gocart engine powered version in no time. Alternately I could probably use most of an old self-propelled snowblower directly. 5 - 10 HP certainly beats 2 hp (human power).

[gtxrider] As to steering, I had pondered the non-assisted hydraulic steering found on a lot of boats. For these the "pump" is turned directly by the steering wheel (mounted behind the dash) and the fluid flows to a piston which contracts or extends depending on the direction of the wheel motion. But these are so expensive new that I have to believe that salvaged parts are too $$ for this project. Leaves me with either a salvaged cable/rack push/pull system (from an old boat) or a really old cables/pulleys and winding/unwinding spool system (like my old Minimax).

Maybe during dinner, I'll figure out what kind of overall gearing I need. Problem is what to use for drag/resistance #'s. Not sure you can find these type of numbers tabulated someplace ... hmmmm ....

BTW : you can blame this all on Rattlesnake Gal. It was she who posted those pics of the Model Ts converted to snowmobiles and someone (? mcdude ?) mentioned the old days of ice racing on Alton Bay. That was the genesis of last years musing on this topic, now resuscitated. Yup, it's all RG's fault Send e-mails re: wasted bandwidth to her, that's RG @ winni.com !

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=1507

[Resident 2B]

MnM,

I like the concept for your vehicle, but as a fellow engineer, I feel you have one huge thing working against this design for this application: Friction, or the lack there of.

Sleds, skis and the like rely on the load from the ski or blade to melt the surface of the ice or snow and for the ski or blade to float over the surface. Friction from the surface to the vehicle approaches zero in a perfect application.

Your design looks like a lot of fun, but you have to deal with the loss of friction. Drive wheels just do not do it. They will spin as you attempt to over come the inerita of the vehicle at the start. As a result, the work is done (by the mushers, but little work is turned into vehicle velocity.

Now if there was a studded belt, like in a snow machine driving the vehicle......

[upthesaukee]

No problem there, Mac said he will train Mee to push the HPS to get it started and then she can hop on board, much the same as the pushers on a bobsled team. That is what you said, right Mac? Mac? Mac, was that you that said that? Mac, is that you knocking on my door and yelling....Mac??????

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

{snip} Your design looks like a lot of fun, but you have to deal with the loss of friction. Drive wheels just do not do it. They will spin as you attempt to over come the inerita of the vehicle at the start. As a result, the work is done (by the mushers, but little work is turned into vehicle velocity.

Now if there was a studded belt, like in a snow machine driving the vehicle......

Yup, lack of friction is definitely an issue, especially when the lake is mostly ice (vs packed snow). But all is not lost ! I have some hope that a solution might be found I could always make some studded snow tires as these guys have done (though I think I'd be a lil less extreme - yikes !).

[Resident 2B]

MnM,

Reasonable solution. That should work very well, as long as the snow is not too deep.

The belt addresses both issues with its larger area.

I hope you realize I am only trying to help. I am a retired engineering VP with too much time on my hands. I really miss design reviews where we had a constructive, positive feedback only approach.

I wish you and the team complete success! I'll be in Daytona watching the cars turn left.

R2B

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

MnM,

Reasonable solution. That should work very well, as long as the snow is not too deep.

The belt addresses both issues with its larger area.

I hope you realize I am only trying to help. I am a retired engineering VP with too much time on my hands. I really miss design reviews where we had a constructive, positive feedback only approach.

I wish you and the team complete success! I'll be in Daytona watching the cars turn left.

R2B

Absolutely Part of the fun of this thing is to toss the concept up in the air and have it banged about. If it can "keep it's wings on" then there's some slim chance "it'll fly". Originally I had though to do some track like arrangement but I'm not sure how to go about it. So should I get to constructing it, I'm thinking there's little chance to getting it all the way right on try #1 (and no real drawback to partway wrong). We always learn best from the mistakes and so it may be better to get to making them quickly. The old build a little, test a lot, build a little, test a ... philosophy. Thus start with something like tires but have the design allow enough flexibility up front to morph into what's likely to be needed.

ps - As an engineer I miss design reviews that were actual reviews and not a mere checklist of process & procedure confirmations.

[gtxrider]

How about tires from a sand dragster? They have paddles instead of studs for traction in sand. It may work on snow but as for ICE? All this need is pedals and skis in place of front wheels.

[Island-Ho]

A few years ago my son inserted 6-32 machine screws through his bicycle tires and mounted them to an off road bicycle. I was skeptical at first, but it worked amazingly well on glare ice and packed snow on the lake. I was afraid of slipping sideways, but I tried it and it was very stable. You might consider two studded bicycle tires in the rear with a modified ski in the front, although without the lean for cornering, steering might be a problem. The standard dérailleurs would probably work well in this application. It might require more of a blade in front, like an ice boat. Let us know when you want to hold the CDR.

[Mee-n-Mac]

[gtxrider] I like it ! That's it, I'm telling "Mee" the wedding's off. Then I can build a single seat ice dragster. Add the screws (as shown above) to the mud tires, pedals and what not and it's good to go. Your pic also makes me wonder just how bad ($$-wise) it would be to construct and legally use a powered OHRV on the lake ? Hmmm ... nothing says I couldn't do both

[IH] I am thinking of using bike tires / wheels / hubs, at least for the proto #1 version. With screw studs I'd bet it would go on the ice but I do wonder how well it would go in any snow. It's my guess that the wider the contact patch the less you'd sink* and the deeper the snow it would be useful in. It could well be that Orion's point is more the rule and in anything over an 1" it doesn't make much of a practical difference. Then there's no reason not to use cycle parts, certainly less fabrication for me to do ! Re: front skid ... I had thought that for our bed race entry a combo ski and skate (snow and ice) would be the trick. Same for the HPS. The skids could have a recycled pair of skate blades, extending down mebbe 1/2" - 1" below the skid bottom. On glare ice the blades do the work, on snow they act like a keel and only add minimally more resistance. Shouldn't be too hard to do ...

*It occurs to me as I type this that perhaps a large area skid plate, set normally (?? 6" ??) above the surface and waxed up real good might extend the usefulness of the HPS in powder. The plate keeps the HPS from bogging down and the tires (whatever they be) push the HPS across the snow (like an old Mississippi paddle wheeler). Might need a long travel suspension to allow the tires to reach "solid" ice/snow for traction ... hmmmm ??? ...

[ITD]

This is a great idea and design but I think even Lance will have trouble going any distance on even packed snow. I occasionally have been known to pedal my mountain bike through snow and even one or two inches becomes tiresome quickly. In fact mushing through wet leaves tends to slow you down. I think some type of auxillary propulsion would be necessary for anything other than use in the back yard.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by ITD

This is a great idea and design but I think even Lance will have trouble going any distance on even packed snow. I occasionally have been known to pedal my mountain bike through snow and even one or two inches becomes tiresome quickly. In fact mushing through wet leaves tends to slow you down. I think some type of auxillary propulsion would be necessary for anything other than use in the back yard.

Well this is disheartening. Perhaps the 1'st thing to do is collect some data. Make up a crude test vehicle, weight it down appropriately, then drag it about on the lake. Using a HD fish scale I could measure the force needed to drag the test vehicle and from that figure out what torque, and therefore hp, is needed. Then all I've got to do is ask Lance what torque his weak sister could apply and voila, I'll know whether the whole concept is feasible or not.

[ITD]

Sorry I had to burst the bubble but maybe you could tweak the design so that the rider is angled in a downhill fashion when seated. Everyone knows it's much easier to pedal downhill. This may just give it enough power.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Orion

While this is truly a fun idea to contemplate, and I am all in favor of human-powered craft (I have a Surfbike), {snip} But keep thinking! I love inventions.

Geesh I forget to mention ... Come Ice Out and reprieve from cabin fever ... remind me to start a similar thread on HPVs, ala water vehicles. I have an old sailboard that sure looks like a prime candidate to be a surfbike look-a-like Also I have the nagging thought somebody should make a waggling, like a fish, powered HPV. If it's good enough for MIT, then I say we should do it !!!

ps - I no doubt have an old thread/post on this topic. Somebody remind me come Spring

[gtxrider]

Well, has there been any progress on the HPS? We need pictures, wind tunnel results, etc... Have you calculated what the drag coefficient is?

Its only a month the the Winter Carnival and I hoped the maiden voyage would be that weekend.

[Orion]

From the looks of things, looks like the Surfbike might be usable for Winter Carnival rather than the HPS.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by gtxrider

Well, has there been any progress on the HPS? We need pictures, wind tunnel results, etc... Have you calculated what the drag coefficient is?

Its only a month the the Winter Carnival and I hoped the maiden voyage would be that weekend.

I think Orion is correct, I'd better be thinking about paddle wheels and pontoons than wheels/trax and skis I had thought about building a test vehicle (for Alton Carnival) in hopes that I could persude one of the BOS to give me a tow to measure drag force but now I think I'm gonna need your Seadoo GTX to collect such data. More seriously I've not given up on the idea, it wouldn't take me more that a day to cobble up a unpowered, non-steering "TV" out of 2x6 and such. Perhaps I should add a parasail to the TV, that would be a fun toy all by itself

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I think...I'd better be thinking about paddle wheels and pontoons than wheels/trax and skis...I've not given up on the idea, it wouldn't take me more that a day to cobble up a unpowered, non-steering "TV" out of 2x6 and such...

Unpowered???? The way this weather is going you better make sure you keep that contraption (if it does get built) in the "no wake zone"....

[Fishy Cover]

Here at the Fish Cove Technical Center (FCTC) we specialize in research regarding non petroleum powered propulsion (NPPP). After reviewing the previous postings, especially with respect to the traction/friction issue, we believe that the condition is the result of inadequate federal spending on traction reseach. Accordingly, we are considering a proposal to the government agency responsible for friction & traction (State? Transportation? HHS?) to study this issue for 3 years and write long technical papers. Does anyone else want to jump on the bandwagon?

[Skip]

I think Fishy Cover raises some very relevant points.

Along those lines, I think Mee-n-Mac needs to be acutely aware of the following study and report filed by the fine folks at CPSC.....

Looks like Fishy Cover's government paper trail is already in full swing!

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/boomer.pdf

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Fishy Cover

Here at the Fish Cove Technical Center (FCTC) we specialize in research regarding non petroleum powered propulsion (NPPP). After reviewing the previous postings, especially with respect to the traction/friction issue, we believe that the condition is the result of inadequate federal spending on traction reseach. Accordingly, we are considering a proposal to the government agency responsible for friction & traction (State? Transportation? HHS?) to study this issue for 3 years and write long technical papers. Does anyone else want to jump on the bandwagon?

To the Directorate of the FCTC ....

Dear Sirs/Madams/Persons of non-specific gender;

We would be most happy to assist you in feeding at the Federal trough. At this time I can not specify the particular area of research wherein we can be the most useful in the extracation of $$s. While the task of writing a long technical paper on the lack of traction while on ice is so appealing as to be self-evident, so are other possible avenues of research in the various human factors presented by the HPS concept. For example, is it more efficient to use chain or belt drive ? What, indeed should any, gearing be used ? What is the maximum velocity that can be expected from the HPS, laden or unladen ? Should the HPS be equipped with safety belts or air bags ? Should usage be restricted to those under the "Baby Boomer" ages per the recent CPSC report ? Perhaps we should meet to discuss the possibilities and perhaps the inclusion of yet unspecified persons to further assist in the squandering of the taxpayer's $$s. Feel free to email us in this regard at your earliest convience.

M-n-M Enterprises
1600 Oinkoink Way
Wastington, DC
Project Code : HPS
MnM@having_black_russian.org