on demand hot water

Dave M · 09-04-2008, 11:45 AM

I been thinking about changing to a hot water on demand system and was wonderig if anybody has this kind of system. Read Consumer Reports and they mentioned that it won't be any less cost, pipes clogging up,waiting for the hot water,etc. Is it worth to having this type of system. I drain the pipes in the camp at the end of the season. Can this be done with the on demand equipment.

Dave M

Pineedles · 09-04-2008, 11:57 AM

I installed a Rinnai tankless hot water system last year fueled with propane. I converted from a 60 gallon electric system. The savings are tremendous. It will pay for itself within 2-3 years. The cost of the system with professional installation is high compared to a normal hot water tank. But with our mineral laden water I was only getting 7-8 years out of these tanks. Since the water flows only when requested there is no sediment to rot the coils or the tank. The upsides are, less energy cost, no tanks to replace, and unlimited hot water. Unlimited hot water is nice when you have 3 to infinity # of people who want to all take a shower.

The only downside I see is that instead of waiting for 8-10 seconds for the hot water to flow through the pipes from a tank it takes 15-20 seconds from the Rinnai.

upnorth · 09-04-2008, 12:31 PM

We also installed a propane-fired tankless heater and I love it. Water is very hot and we've never run out. I have to say that I haven't noticed any real delay (probably because we have pex piping throughout the house, as compared to our oil-fired hot water heater coupled to copper pipes back home in MA). The builder recommended we go tankless and the cost differential over a propane fired hot water heater was only $170. Interestingly, when we tried to estimate what level we ought to be for propane pricing (per the deal with Our Town and Eastern propane) -- this being our first year with a new house -- the customer service rep commented that the Rinnai Tankless is very efficient and hardly enters their calculus. On the downside, every single time the hot water is turned on at the faucet for even a moment, the tankless fires up and you can hear it in certain areas of the home -- I'm sure I'm the only one that notices...

As for hard water damaging the equipment, well our water is so hard that we had to install a water softener and so that issue is off the table. (In case anyone is interested, we went with Culligan out of Laconia -- Don Morin -- super nice guy and their prices are competitive).

I can't imagine there being any issue with draining the system for the winter shutdown. The unit only turns on when there is water flowing through. No water, no power. It seems that all that needs to be done is to be sure the water is out of the system and then simply pull the plug from the electric outlet and shut the gas valve.

islandAl · 09-04-2008, 12:37 PM

I have Eemax instant heaters installed in different sizes at each sink and shower. I started this with rebuild over 10 years ago and love them. No waiting as the heater is right there. No heating of pipes from central point with a single larger heater. Only used one cold water pipe to each location.
Before the rebuild had two smaller tanks and hated watching the hot water drain off as I drained after each fall and early spring weekend. Do not keep heat on when not there.
I do need to "blow" the water out of each heater as they feed into the top and have "U" shapped heater that probably would freeze (never tried leaving them full) Only takes a couple of minutes with a little car type compressor.

Formula260SS · 09-04-2008, 02:34 PM

On demand is the only way to go, for all the reason already mentioned. End of the season, open a few well placed drain valves and you are done. Been using one for years at the lake and never had a problem with freezing.

Pineedles · 09-04-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islandAl

I have Eemax instant heaters installed in different sizes at each sink and shower. I started this with rebuild over 10 years ago and love them. No waiting as the heater is right there. No heating of pipes from central point with a single larger heater. Only used one cold water pipe to each location.
Before the rebuild had two smaller tanks and hated watching the hot water drain off as I drained after each fall and early spring weekend. Do not keep heat on when not there.
I do need to "blow" the water out of each heater as they feed into the top and have "U" shapped heater that probably would freeze (never tried leaving them full) Only takes a couple of minutes with a little car type compressor.

While mine is a whole house tankless system, I first saw the type islandAl has 24 years ago while visting my wife's relatives in Pescara, Italy. I'm not bashing the USA, but its amazing its taken this long for us to even hear about this alternative method of water heating. Maybe its because of all the recent energy conciousness today.

Formula260SS · 09-04-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pineedles

While mine is a whole house tankless system, I first saw the type islandAl has 24 years ago while visting my wife's relatives in Pescara, Italy. I'm not bashing the USA, but its amazing its taken this long for us to even hear about this alternative method of water heating. Maybe its because of all the recent energy conciousness today.

They are all over Europe, Iv'e been traveling there for 10yrs and most hotels have them in each room. The utility room in my German friends home looks completly different than ours, much much more efficent overall. The one things that helps Europeans a great deal is their construction, most homes are brick and mortor that seem more insulated than ours.

Webbsatwinni · 09-05-2008, 06:55 AM

Formula,

Is your tankless water heater fired with Propane? If it is, do you have it delivered to Rattlesnake or drag it in yourself?

hazmatmedic · 09-05-2008, 06:57 AM

The extra waiting for hot water through these systems is because the water is cold/room temperature and when there is a call for heat (hot water at faucet), the burner ignites and starts heating the water. The hot water tanks already have the water hot. There is still the same delay from each "tank" through your pipes and out the faucet. That doesn't change unless you move the on demand heater closer to where you use hot water the most. They can fit in a closet.

The savings is definitely there and is a no brainer for second homes. PGANE offers $300 rebate for installing a propane water heater in a new home or replacing an oil or electric water heater. It takes 4-8 weeks for check to arrive, but I know many people who have received them, including myself.

I have the form if anyone needs it.

Argie's Wife · 09-05-2008, 07:38 AM

We have a tankless system off the furnace and heat with #2 heating oil. It was more economical a couple of years ago but since the price of heating oil is starting to come down, we can't justify the replacement of the furnace yet with a propane furnace.

Last winter we purchased less than 500 gal. of heating oil to heat 2,200 sq. ft and the hot water. I've got about an eighth of a tank now and unless we have to run the furnace, this will last us until October when we'll get our first fill up of the season.

By the way, we're a family of four with several pets and never run out of hot water. Even with clothes washing, dishwashing, showers, baths, etc. - never out even when we've had a bunch of guests staying with us!

One more thing - we have an "insta-hot" facuet off the kitchen sink for immediate hot water - like making tea on tap or getting water to boil. It's very handy and less wasteful! I love that feature of our kitchen!

Formula260SS · 09-05-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

Formula,

Is your tankless water heater fired with Propane? If it is, do you have it delivered to Rattlesnake or drag it in yourself?

It's propane fired and Geroge Randall 253-7042 delivers propane to the island, tanks are at the dock and the line runs up to the cottage.

Dave M · 09-05-2008, 12:25 PM

Thanks for the feedback. My worry for draining is that the water will be trapped in the heat exchanger where the coil piping is located. Other than that its seems like a good thing to do especially with a rebate. I also heard that Rheem was a good one as well as Rinnai. Who do you recommend for selling/installing. What is typical cost for the heater and installing.

Thanks again. This forum is just awesome.

Dave M

hazmatmedic · 09-05-2008, 12:35 PM

The Rinnai has valves that can be purchased that make it extremely easy to drain. No worries for the heat exchanger.

I suggest you call your LP supplier for a quote. You must have a license to do the work even for a second home. Plumbers are grandfathered so they automatically have a gas license which means they can do the work also.

Sunbeam lodge · 09-05-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazmatmedic

The extra waiting for hot water through these systems is because the water is cold/room temperature and when there is a call for heat (hot water at faucet), the burner ignites and starts heating the water. The hot water tanks already have the water hot. There is still the same delay from each "tank" through your pipes and out the faucet. That doesn't change unless you move the on demand heater closer to where you use hot water the most. They can fit in a closet.

The savings is definitely there and is a no brainer for second homes. PGANE offers $300 rebate for installing a propane water heater in a new home or replacing an oil or electric water heater. It takes 4-8 weeks for check to arrive, but I know many people who have received them, including myself.

I have the form if anyone needs it.

What is the PGANE $300 rebate? I had Rymes install a Rinnai and never received a rebate. I disconnected my 40 gallon hot water tank as I had been keeping the hot water heater on all winter for the kids to use whenever they came up for a weekend during the winter. I am happy with the performance. The only complaint is that periodically the water may cool down for a brief period while you shower. I leave heat on all winter so I do not drain the unit. Also I use Integrated water Systems for my water softener service for a unit they installed. The cost for each visit is $140 which seems high, even though it only be a 15-20 minute adjustment. I would like to change to Cullinane. Does anyone have experience with them

Audiofn · 09-05-2008, 09:33 PM

The only down side that I have heard is that you need to keep the flow up high to get them to fire. Not sure if this has been addressed but it could be an issue for things like when you are shaving.....

ishoot308 · 03-09-2009, 08:17 AM

I am seriously contemplating having a Rinnai on demand system (propane) installed in my island camp. It sounds like most have had great success with them.

To those of you who went with a Rinnai, did you get an interior or exterior unit?? What are the benefits or drawbacks of either??

Does the system drain easily enough where if I wanted to use the camp occassionally in the winter it wouldn't be too much hassle??

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Dan

jmen24 · 03-09-2009, 08:41 AM

Apparently I need to pay more attention to what I read and what the original question was. I will retreat into my corner and observe. sorry.

Jmen24

Sunbeam lodge · 03-09-2009, 01:07 PM

None of these work like the Rinnai. With Rinnai you have to wait for the water to come from the heater and clear the pipes of cold water. It is not instant hot water at the faucet.
Also, if you shut it off for a very short period you make get a splurge of cool water before it gets hot again.

no-engine · 03-09-2009, 01:27 PM

Call Minute Man Plumbing in Meredith...... He's got options!
I am not a sales person of his; I am a client.

09-04-2008, 11:45 AM	#1
Dave M Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 395 Thanks: 4 Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts	on demand hot water I been thinking about changing to a hot water on demand system and was wonderig if anybody has this kind of system. Read Consumer Reports and they mentioned that it won't be any less cost, pipes clogging up,waiting for the hot water,etc. Is it worth to having this type of system. I drain the pipes in the camp at the end of the season. Can this be done with the on demand equipment. Dave M

09-04-2008, 12:31 PM	#3
upnorth Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Rinnai We also installed a propane-fired tankless heater and I love it. Water is very hot and we've never run out. I have to say that I haven't noticed any real delay (probably because we have pex piping throughout the house, as compared to our oil-fired hot water heater coupled to copper pipes back home in MA). The builder recommended we go tankless and the cost differential over a propane fired hot water heater was only $170. Interestingly, when we tried to estimate what level we ought to be for propane pricing (per the deal with Our Town and Eastern propane) -- this being our first year with a new house -- the customer service rep commented that the Rinnai Tankless is very efficient and hardly enters their calculus. On the downside, every single time the hot water is turned on at the faucet for even a moment, the tankless fires up and you can hear it in certain areas of the home -- I'm sure I'm the only one that notices... As for hard water damaging the equipment, well our water is so hard that we had to install a water softener and so that issue is off the table. (In case anyone is interested, we went with Culligan out of Laconia -- Don Morin -- super nice guy and their prices are competitive). I can't imagine there being any issue with draining the system for the winter shutdown. The unit only turns on when there is water flowing through. No water, no power. It seems that all that needs to be done is to be sure the water is out of the system and then simply pull the plug from the electric outlet and shut the gas valve.

09-04-2008, 12:37 PM	#4
islandAl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mountonboro Posts: 200 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Electric I have Eemax instant heaters installed in different sizes at each sink and shower. I started this with rebuild over 10 years ago and love them. No waiting as the heater is right there. No heating of pipes from central point with a single larger heater. Only used one cold water pipe to each location. Before the rebuild had two smaller tanks and hated watching the hot water drain off as I drained after each fall and early spring weekend. Do not keep heat on when not there. I do need to "blow" the water out of each heater as they feed into the top and have "U" shapped heater that probably would freeze (never tried leaving them full) Only takes a couple of minutes with a little car type compressor.

09-04-2008, 02:34 PM	#5
Formula260SS Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NH Posts: 384 Thanks: 11 Thanked 76 Times in 51 Posts	Tankless On demand is the only way to go, for all the reason already mentioned. End of the season, open a few well placed drain valves and you are done. Been using one for years at the lake and never had a problem with freezing.

09-05-2008, 06:57 AM	#9
hazmatmedic Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 47 Thanks: 6 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	on demand The extra waiting for hot water through these systems is because the water is cold/room temperature and when there is a call for heat (hot water at faucet), the burner ignites and starts heating the water. The hot water tanks already have the water hot. There is still the same delay from each "tank" through your pipes and out the faucet. That doesn't change unless you move the on demand heater closer to where you use hot water the most. They can fit in a closet. The savings is definitely there and is a no brainer for second homes. PGANE offers $300 rebate for installing a propane water heater in a new home or replacing an oil or electric water heater. It takes 4-8 weeks for check to arrive, but I know many people who have received them, including myself. I have the form if anyone needs it.

09-04-2008, 11:57 AM	#2
Pineedles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Moultonborough & CT Posts: 2,535 Thanks: 1,059 Thanked 652 Times in 363 Posts	Tankless Hot Water Heater I installed a Rinnai tankless hot water system last year fueled with propane. I converted from a 60 gallon electric system. The savings are tremendous. It will pay for itself within 2-3 years. The cost of the system with professional installation is high compared to a normal hot water tank. But with our mineral laden water I was only getting 7-8 years out of these tanks. Since the water flows only when requested there is no sediment to rot the coils or the tank. The upsides are, less energy cost, no tanks to replace, and unlimited hot water. Unlimited hot water is nice when you have 3 to infinity # of people who want to all take a shower. The only downside I see is that instead of waiting for 8-10 seconds for the hot water to flow through the pipes from a tank it takes 15-20 seconds from the Rinnai.

09-05-2008, 06:55 AM	#8
Webbsatwinni Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Lebanon Ct and Rattlesnake Island Since 2007 Posts: 610 Thanks: 180 Thanked 137 Times in 72 Posts	Formula, Is your tankless water heater fired with Propane? If it is, do you have it delivered to Rattlesnake or drag it in yourself?

09-05-2008, 07:38 AM	#10
Argie's Wife Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Alton Posts: 1,908 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 533 Thanked 579 Times in 260 Posts	We have a tankless system off the furnace and heat with #2 heating oil. It was more economical a couple of years ago but since the price of heating oil is starting to come down, we can't justify the replacement of the furnace yet with a propane furnace. Last winter we purchased less than 500 gal. of heating oil to heat 2,200 sq. ft and the hot water. I've got about an eighth of a tank now and unless we have to run the furnace, this will last us until October when we'll get our first fill up of the season. By the way, we're a family of four with several pets and never run out of hot water. Even with clothes washing, dishwashing, showers, baths, etc. - never out even when we've had a bunch of guests staying with us! One more thing - we have an "insta-hot" facuet off the kitchen sink for immediate hot water - like making tea on tap or getting water to boil. It's very handy and less wasteful! I love that feature of our kitchen!

09-05-2008, 12:25 PM	#12
Dave M Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 395 Thanks: 4 Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts	Thanks for the feedback. My worry for draining is that the water will be trapped in the heat exchanger where the coil piping is located. Other than that its seems like a good thing to do especially with a rebate. I also heard that Rheem was a good one as well as Rinnai. Who do you recommend for selling/installing. What is typical cost for the heater and installing. Thanks again. This forum is just awesome. Dave M

09-05-2008, 12:35 PM	#13
hazmatmedic Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 47 Thanks: 6 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	draining and installing The Rinnai has valves that can be purchased that make it extremely easy to drain. No worries for the heat exchanger. I suggest you call your LP supplier for a quote. You must have a license to do the work even for a second home. Plumbers are grandfathered so they automatically have a gas license which means they can do the work also.

09-05-2008, 09:33 PM	#15
Audiofn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bedford, MA/Naples, ME Posts: 162 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The only down side that I have heard is that you need to keep the flow up high to get them to fire. Not sure if this has been addressed but it could be an issue for things like when you are shaving.....

03-09-2009, 08:17 AM	#16
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 5,932 Thanks: 2,290 Thanked 4,942 Times in 1,917 Posts	Rinnai Recommendations I am seriously contemplating having a Rinnai on demand system (propane) installed in my island camp. It sounds like most have had great success with them. To those of you who went with a Rinnai, did you get an interior or exterior unit?? What are the benefits or drawbacks of either?? Does the system drain easily enough where if I wanted to use the camp occassionally in the winter it wouldn't be too much hassle?? Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks! Dan Last edited by ishoot308; 03-09-2009 at 08:57 AM.

03-09-2009, 08:41 AM	#17
jmen24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,139 Thanks: 223 Thanked 319 Times in 181 Posts	A Little Confusion Apparently I need to pay more attention to what I read and what the original question was. I will retreat into my corner and observe. sorry. Jmen24 Last edited by jmen24; 03-09-2009 at 03:03 PM. Reason: I was in the wrong

03-09-2009, 01:07 PM	#18
Sunbeam lodge Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Meredith/Naples Florida Posts: 367 Thanks: 135 Thanked 50 Times in 26 Posts	Rinnai None of these work like the Rinnai. With Rinnai you have to wait for the water to come from the heater and clear the pipes of cold water. It is not instant hot water at the faucet. Also, if you shut it off for a very short period you make get a splurge of cool water before it gets hot again.

03-09-2009, 01:27 PM	#19
no-engine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West side Winnipesaukee, Lakes Region Posts: 516 Thanks: 20 Thanked 52 Times in 40 Posts	Call Minute Man Plumbing in Meredith...... He's got options! I am not a sales person of his; I am a client.