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Old 03-28-2005, 05:37 PM   #1
Paugus Bay Resident
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Default Tamarack Labor Problems

Saw this a couple of days ago.

Tamarack

N.H. Depart. of Labor fines Laconia restaurant for child labor law violations
LACONIA, N.H. (AP) — The government has fined a Laconia restaurant nearly $30,000 for violating child labor laws.

The Labor Department said the Tamarack Restaurant illegally employed minors under age 14 and allowed workers under 16 to work later or longer than they should have.

The government said it was the second time the restaurant was fined for child law violations.

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Old 03-29-2005, 03:57 PM   #2
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Default Down Hill

The Tamarack has gone down ever since the new owners took over. The food isn't that good and the prices have really gone up. For the two of us it's a good $20. or more and for nothing fancy. Forget when the kids come up.

Will take Peppers any day of the week.

Can't wait until August, wish we could get there sooner. But just checking in on the forum and cams daily makes me feel like I'm there.

Thanks for all the good work, and the helpful information this forum gives.
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Old 03-30-2005, 11:45 AM   #3
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I agree that the folks at the Tamarack should have been on their toes after the first fine,but the DOL is having a pretty negative effect on area business' with their intimidating audits.Recently they've fined Hart's ,The Naswa,here at the Village Kitchen and many others.We had no clue that the DOL regards friday night as a school night and we frequently used kids who are 16 and 17 until 8:30 or 9pm.Durring the week these kids have to leave by 7pm and we knew that,but occaisionally,they'll sign out at 7:05 or 7:10.Every one of those 5 minute late sign outs can draw up to a $10,000 fine (gulp)
Our fine was around $7,500 and we felt it was totally uncalled for but our protests fell on deaf ears.
We're scared to death now to employ kids under 18 and are phasing all of them out.....we have three left and we love them and don't have the heart to lay them off.We are now using eastern European students through a employment agency....last summer we had 18 of them.
So the bottom line is....all these nice kids want to work but we can't risk the fines, should they inadvertently sign out 5 minutes late some night .So instead of staying in the area,all this money is going overseas.
It makes us feel bad,but as you can see,second time offenders are not treated well.
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Old 03-30-2005, 12:19 PM   #4
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Default Government has no common sense

What a mess.
It sounds like this goes all the way from legitimate abuse (hiring under 14, couldn't they check a birth certificate?) to way overzelous bureaucratic interference (fines for 5 minute late checkouts, can't work late on Fridays). Do the fines go into the general fund of our cash strapped state? That really helps out the kids. I'll bet that many businesses would make the same choice as SAMIAM and avoid a potential problem by not hiring minors. The state, in trying to protect kids, causes the elimination of their jobs. Why is it that government can't seem to write and enforce laws in reasonable ways that don't make problems far worse than they already are? Why can't government work with business for a fair resolution rather than grabbing the money and running?
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Old 03-31-2005, 09:59 AM   #5
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Default Same here, Sam!

For the past four years we've hired foreign students for the same reasons Samiam stated above. Unfortunately, the laws are written and interpreted in extremely strict fashion - no room for variation. We have no employees under the age of eighteen - can't afford the risk of a late-ending shift - particularly when one minute after the hour is considered breaking the law. In this business, it's impossible to guarantee that every employee can and/or will punch out at a precise time!!!
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Old 03-31-2005, 01:00 PM   #6
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Arrow Foreign help

I notice the ski resorts hire a lot of foreign personel. I talked to one at Loon and he says they even pay the transportation to and from home and gives them a place to stay! I think the legislature should open their eyes to their foolishness. Then again, most of them are lawyers. They made the laws so that they can smell the color of money!
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Old 03-31-2005, 06:14 PM   #7
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Usually I'm on the side of business and don't like government intruding into our lives. In these cases I'm glad they are aggressively pursuing this. A simple 5 second search on the internet brought me right to the NH DOL website. (I'm sure they would mail it to people who don't have or won't use a computer.)

http://www.labor.state.nh.us/


Two or three clicks later I was into the page that clearly listed the regulations for hiring minors.

From the site: http://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html...-A/276-A-4.htm

IV. No youth under 16 years of age shall be employed or permitted to work earlier than 7 o'clock a.m. or later than 9 o'clock p.m., more than 3 hours per day on school days and 23 hours per week during school weeks, except that on nonschool days he may be employed 8 hours per day and, during vacations, 48 hours per week. Upon application by an employer who employs a youth under 16 years of age in agricultural work, the commissioner of labor may order that the restriction upon hours of work imposed by this paragraph be suspended.


Pretty clear, years ago children were regularly abused by employers which is why these laws exist. While I know the people and businesses above are not abusers, they need to be aware and comply with these rules. The fact that they are getting caught in violation of these rules shows that the audits should be more frequent and if necessary the fines larger. There's no need to be scared of the DOL, just follow the rules. If you are an employer, take the time ( probably less than 2 hours) to understand the rules regarding hiring minors and the postings you are requried to have.
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Old 03-31-2005, 10:59 PM   #8
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Where I work, we have a cardboard baler for recycling cardboard. Under 18 cannot put cardboard into a baler. On those school nights (yes, Fridays are school nights), the minors are told about 5 min before mandatory punch out time to put down whatever they are doing and go punch out. As part of a nationwide chain, the company can not afford the fines and most importantly the negative publicity that accompanies it. Imagine the headlines, "Someone's restaurant (or other busines) found in violation of Child Labor Law violations", film at Eleven. It conjures up visions of 10 kids looking forward to getting their driving licenses in a few years who are all jammed up in a hot, dirty kitchen, doing the dishes, cooking, etc. or working in some kind of sweatshop. Which of course is the furthest from the truth, and literally can be the result of a few minutes late on punching out.

I think back to my teen years and my summer employment: 14- pushing a wheelbarrow full of asphalt; 15 &16 - putting up chain link and wooden fencing; 17 - washing & polishing cars at a foreign auto dealership. All jobs paid well, and I worked at least 45 hours per week, sometimes in the 50-60 hr range in the construction trades. Thank god the employers never got in trouble there...think of the fines they may have had.

Too bad for the kids...most are good workers and will be forced out of some pretty good jobs because the employers can't take a chance on catching a fine for being over a few minutes.

Protect the kids and punish the abusers of the laws...unfortunately, the punishment will probably be the same for all...fear of discrimination lawsuits (I got fined this amount, but they only got fined that much).
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Old 03-31-2005, 11:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD
... If you are an employer, take the time ( probably less than 2 hours) to understand the rules regarding hiring minors and the postings you are requried to have.
What makes you think we as employers are not aware of the rules. Apparently you didn't understand that a violation can occur simply by a staff member punching their timecard FIVE MINUTES after their designated hour! If you ever spent time in a busy restaurant you'd know that during peak times it is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE for us to watch a clock that carefully. And if you think for a second that any teenager is going to be vigilant enough to be sure they punch out before the "witching hour" you need a wakeup call into teenage behavior.

We all have our copies of the law, and we all keep our files updated each time there are amendments.

What we don't have is the ability to keep an eye on the clock and be providing excellent service to our customers in the middle of a busy dinner hour - all at the same time. On a Friday night, which is considered a "School Night" a restaurant owner's primary concern is customer service. How would you feel if service came to a screeching halt at 9:00PM on a Friday night because several staff members had to punch out? I know my customers would go through the roof! Furthermore, staff's work doesn't end when the door is closed. Cleanup and closing takes another hour or more. How much longer would it take us if members of the staff were missing because they've got to cease work before all the work is done? There are just way too many factors involved here which you couldn't possibly understand if you haven't operated a restaurant. Consequently, we're forced to to what we must do to be in compiance - don't hire employees under the age of 18.

Come walk a day in our shoes before you publicly cast aspersions and assert that we don't know the laws or haven't taken the time to "search" the internet for the answers. Furthermore, we don't fear the State or Federal governments. We understand the laws, and operate in a fashion that allows us to remain in compliance. If you feel you must at us, then so be it. Then again, perhaps you did not intend your post to be as condescending as it appeared.
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Old 04-01-2005, 12:12 AM   #10
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Pepper,

Sorry I offended you and you took my post personally, it wasn't directed at you. There were 6 posts before I posted. At the risk of offending someone else, I saw information referenced that did not jibe with what I posted from the DOL site and that could have been a typo, I don't know. Also the violations listed in the article linked indicate that there are other people who either don't understand the law or don't care about it. Hence my recommendation that they read the laws.

I've never run or even worked at a restaurant. I did own a business so I do know a little about running a business and dealing with employees. From your post it's easy for me to see that an employee who can only work 3 hours and must be out by nine p.m. probably isn't going to work out. Furthermore I agree that relying on a kid to punch out in time when you can be fined is living dangerously.

As far as casting "aspersions", you took my post personally, again I believe you know the laws and have done what you need to do to comply. But if I assume that when you say "we" in your post that you mean all other restaurants (or employers for that matter) know the law, I'm afraid I will have to respectfully disagree.
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Old 04-01-2005, 12:15 AM   #11
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Unhappy Time for reform or perhaps some CS

Quote:
Originally Posted by upthesaukee
{snip}
I think back to my teen years and my summer employment: 14- pushing a wheelbarrow full of asphalt; 15 &16 - putting up chain link and wooden fencing; 17 - washing & polishing cars at a foreign auto dealership. All jobs paid well, and I worked at least 45 hours per week, sometimes in the 50-60 hr range in the construction trades. Thank god the employers never got in trouble there...think of the fines they may have had.

Too bad for the kids...most are good workers and will be forced out of some pretty good jobs because the employers can't take a chance on catching a fine for being over a few minutes.

Protect the kids and punish the abusers of the laws...unfortunately, the punishment will probably be the same for all...fear of discrimination lawsuits (I got fined this amount, but they only got fined that much).
This got me thinking too. The laws also prohibit 16-17 yr olds from working more than 30 hrs a week. I wonder if I'd ever been able to save enough to pay for college (which I did) working through high school if the present laws were in place back then. How did someone decide how many hours per day, per week and at what time became abuse ? I can understand the intent and perhaps the need but really ... Moreover I shake my head in wonder at a Friday night work curfew. You'd think being gainfully employed on Fri (and Sat) nights (instead of being left to "roam the streets") would be a good thing. I wonder why any employer would bother to hire someone to work a 3.00 hr shift. I guess I have the answer. I'd like to think that the legislators thought these laws important enough to rub more than 2 neurons together when crafting them but I dunno. Perhaps a re-look is in order. Like building in some progressivity into the "punch out time". How about something like ever increasing fines for "late time" and then only if it's seen to be habitual (ie - big fine for 1 hr extra, no fine for the 5-15 min variety unless it's most of the employees most of the time). Maybe manditory OT pay for extra time worked so the employer has some dis-incentive to keep a kid late. At least the person being abused gets the benefit. I don't know what, if any, answer is proper/needed but these laws seem counter to what I knew as a "kid" and counter to preparing them for the true working world that awaits them at age 18 these days. Then again how silly am I, expecting commonsense from the gov't.
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Last edited by Mee-n-Mac; 04-01-2005 at 12:30 AM. Reason: I spel baaad ! 2 much time at work, not enuf @ homwerk
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Old 04-01-2005, 12:22 AM   #12
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD
...But if I assume that when you say "we" in your post that you mean all other restaurants (or employers for that matter) know the law, I'm afraid I will have to respectfully disagree.
And you are perfectly within reason to do so. I agree that there are many employers who don't take the time to regularly update their guides, and who sometimes couldn't care less about the laws. Unfortunately, those are the ones who make it tougher on all of us.

I didn't mean to sound so harsh in my post, but you are correct - I took it personally, and I should know better than to do so.

I hereby promise to take ten deep breaths and relax. Sometimes I can't help myself - my red hair gets away from me and before I know it it's on fire.

In any event, perhaps the existance of this thread, and your helpful links above, will help some employers find the information that perhaps they did not know was available to them. That would be a GOOD thing!

Thanks, ITD.
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Old 04-01-2005, 08:13 AM   #13
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I am a reformed manager of one of the national chain restaurants who shall remain nameless. I say reformed because I got out of the biz. Anyway, our company policy was that we could only hire age 18 and over. Part of that reason was because we served alcohol. The other part was because of what is being discussed here. It is just too difficult to manage. Like Pepper said, it is difficult enough to manage the restaurant and give our customers the best service possible. Throw some intense clock management on top of that and it gets even worse. We did have many many "kids" under 18 apply for jobs with us, and our standard answer was come back when you are 18. No matter what their experiences were, we just couldn't do it. And in a lot of cases we lost out on what could have been very productive employees.

With all that said, I now work M-F, "normal" hours, and 8 years later I still miss the business. I may make a stab at opening my own someday, but that I am still unsure of. Good luck to Pepper, Samiam and the other restaurant owners and managers. It is hard work but I know it is very very rewarding!
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Old 04-01-2005, 08:42 AM   #14
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the shame here is the law which was suppose to protect children from work abuse is actually hurting their chances to get a part time job. We are hiring foreign students vs. local. I don't think that the problem is owners not taking a chance it is the inflexibility of the law. Maybe that should change
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Old 04-01-2005, 08:59 AM   #15
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Perhaps someone can invent a time clock with alarms or beepers of some kind for the young workers.
They are a great resource and it is a shame they are being phased out.
(Way back when, my boss was in violation too! Glad for both of us she didn’t get caught!)
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Old 04-01-2005, 11:36 AM   #16
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Hi folks,

I've been a member for a long time, but have been away from the boards for a while!

Am I right in believing the majority of these rules are only in effect during school? This doesn't effect summer help (school vacation) does it?
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Old 04-03-2005, 08:26 AM   #17
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One of my line cooks has been with me for 20 years.He is an excellent employee and asked me if I'd hire his 16 year old son and he'd train him on Saturdays.This was pre DOL and of course I said yes and he turned out to be a enthusiastic and very competent kid.We love him.
His dad starts work at 6am and his son wouls start at 7am,but to save gas ,they started riding together and the son would hang out until starting time.Several times without my knowledge,we had a little breakfast rush and the son signed in a few minutes early...around 6:45 to help his dad. Bingo...the evil Samiam abused another innocent worker...his early starts cost me around $2,500 of the total $7,500 fine.Kids under 18 can't start work before 7am even on weekends....and yes ITD...I am aware of that law.
In my 30 years in business I've always hired sons and daughters of employees.You should see the stars in their eyes when they get their first check.....That little cocky swagger when they learn their job to the point that older employees treat them with respect. Scores of my kids bought theire first car from savings gained by working.My night manager started with me when he was 13......the son of my day manager.......her daughter works for me too....and I don't see this happening again and it makes me very angry and very sad.
Sorry about rambling.......maybe later I'll share the story of my audit by the DOL
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Old 04-03-2005, 09:42 AM   #18
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It's been interesting to see the "other side" of the story. Something most of us we're probably unaware of.
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Old 04-04-2005, 11:33 AM   #19
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Cool Child labor laws

I guess I was lucky. I was in the construction trade from 14 till about 28 years old. I always work 60, 70 hours a week. If I had not done so I will not be able to afford college. I think in part I have learn the value of work and hard-earned money. Something the newer generation lacks.
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Old 04-05-2005, 12:24 PM   #20
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As a teenager I worked at a local lake business, the owners where not the least bit concerned with scheduling teenagers 8+ hours a day or even allowing breaks. Only until I worked a job at home in MA, was I made aware of the breaks and lunches being mandatory.
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:24 AM   #21
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Smile Young workers

Although I myself am not in the habit of hiring below the age of 16...I usually have one or two staff that are 15. I do this, because it is a great age to introduce newcomers to the buisness, get aquanted with their parents, and start good work habits. It is sometimes inconvienent I must admit to let someone go early in the night.....but I try to use them at times when maybe I just need an extra for a few hours, so it doesn't present a huge burden for the rest of the staff when they leave.

A quick tip for all of you out there that need to be sure your staff punches out at the right time.....$4.99 at brooks, a cheap alarm clock...set it and forget it. Give yourself a 5 minute warning to the 9 o'clock rule, make sure it reflects the same time you have on your time clock system.....and it should help you stay in compliance.

The state also gives some room for error, when they see that you are a responsible employer, and take good measure to stay compliant. If your faced with an infraction, show the the inspector a posting on the wall that has signatures from all your staff that they understand the child labor law...show them the alarm clock with the 5 minute head start....and hey, if you notice once in a while that you did infact go over your time....make a note of it in the employee file, or directly on the time card, of why. Maybe the alarm clock didn't get reset after a power failure...or the staff member left on time, but forgot to punch out....Or the staff member was doing an outside chore, or was involved with changing out of uniform ect.....

while these may all be excuses, at least you took the time to note them, and if you took the time to note them, the state will also believe that you took action to make sure it didn't happen again in that senario.

While it may not buy you a get out of jail free card....it may be just enough to show your intent to be a responsible employer, and that you "want" to follow the law....verses the common argument which is "it's to hard" or "inconvienent" to follow the law.
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:34 PM   #22
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Cheffy..please refer to post #3 on this thread....The state has no mercy.....
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Old 05-19-2005, 11:40 PM   #23
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Default compliance

Samiam, perhaps I just haven't had to deal with it for some time now, and thats why I remain the optimist lol. I did however face fines at a previous work place, in the $13,000.00 range (this is about 9 yrs ago), part of the infractions were prior to me being manager, and a few after I became manager....but the few little systems I had put in place to identify time issues and resolve them, bought me a freebie. Perhaps the inspector had just had a good day and wanted to show some mercy lol? who knows. But I wish everyone well in this department, it is unfortunate if the state takes a position of enforcement that is unreasonable. It really is unreasonable when you compare it to the court blotter in the citizen, "so and so was sentanced to 5 years in jail, with all but 30 days suspended, and recieved a $2500.00 fine with all but $200 suspended....." Makes me sick, and these people are the ones actually COMMITTING crimes!

Before you know it, there will be snow on the ground again....so if nothing sparks my interest in posting, I wish you all a great a prosperous summer, and happy eating to all of you that are generous enough to to support our various establishments!
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