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Old 03-11-2022, 06:55 PM   #101
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Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?
Yes--definitely. A person should compare a Tesla S to a high powered full size sedan, or the upcoming Ford Lightning to the F-150. Also depends on your personal cost of electricity and gasoline. But in most any case, I think you're going to get the cost of the charger back long before you sell the car
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Old 03-11-2022, 07:07 PM   #102
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Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.
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Old 03-11-2022, 07:30 PM   #103
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All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.
It’s a pretty wide range depending on what you want and what you have.

One house I had an existing 30A 240V heater in the garage, that I rarely used.
So I added an A/B switch and a 2nd outlet. Probably $100.00 and did it myself.

Other house I installed a Tesla Wall Connector. By luck I was able to put it right after the main house disconnect and added a sub panel. Probably $700 and did it myself. Professional might have been $1500.00-ish

There is a pretty wide range on charge rates. Faster rates are more convenient but not always required. If you drive 300 miles a day you might want the max 60A (to charge at say 30 mph) and you might not have the capacity, so it could cost $1000’s to upgrade your service. Or you drive 20 miles a day, you can use a 120V outlet and charge at a rate of 3 miles per hour.

Remember you typically charge while you sleep. As long as it’s ready by morning is all you need. Depends on how much you drive.

Rates in MA are much higher and you DO NOT save a ton. I save because I have Solar. Rates are better in NH. So you would probably cut fuel by 50%. It’s a lot of money to save that much on fuel. More you drive the more you save.

Sone parts of the country only pay like 0.08 Kw/h. NH is 0.17 KWh/h. MA is 0.26 kW/h.

With price if gas going up savings could potentially go much higher. But who knows where everything will settle long term.

Gas savings is only one reason to go EV. How they drive, the tech, the safety are other reasons.
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Old 03-11-2022, 07:42 PM   #104
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Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.
And if you were, god forbid, T-boned by someone at 40mph

Which would you rather be in with your family.
Tesla Model X or Your 12 year old $11k car?

We all make our choices.

I don’t buy Tesla’s to just save gas, but that’s a nice perk.

One time the car swerved suddenly way away from the shoulder. Man in dark clothes walking in the road dark drizzle night no road lights. On coming car had just turned off my auto high beams. I never saw him until it would have been to late. The car saw him before I did and drove around him. My guess is my mirror would have hit him.
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Old 03-11-2022, 10:59 PM   #105
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Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.
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Old 03-12-2022, 08:58 AM   #106
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Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…
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Old 03-12-2022, 09:49 AM   #107
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For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.
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Old 03-12-2022, 10:22 AM   #108
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Default Excellent Source for GENERAL Solar info

I'm getting a 12kW system installed at a cost of about $2.75/watt. I was very happy with that cost compared to other costs in the area.

The one huge thing with solar is you need to educate yourself. Solar installers possess the knowledge so they will suggest a system (or panels, or a specific invertor) that may or may not be what you want. Panel costs vary widely as does quality and efficiency at the end of the panels life (warranty) about 25 years. Panels do degrade in efficiency to the 80%s at the end of their life. Payback numbers I've seen are generally between 8-12 years depending on a variety of assumptions (these assumptions are almost always skewed in the installers behalf so again,) buyer beware.

On average, according to Solar Reviews - the average cost to install a system in New Hampshire is about $2.83/w.

https://www.solarreviews.com/solar-panel-cost

Get a couple opinions and quotes if you can.
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Old 03-12-2022, 12:03 PM   #109
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Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…
I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.
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Old 03-12-2022, 12:20 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by LakeDad View Post
Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…
Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great
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Old 03-12-2022, 12:58 PM   #111
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For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.
Thanks for sharing your quote.
It’s frightening how much to spend on electricity over 20-25 years.

It’s a similar type quote I got from MassRenewables. Keep in mind. You ideally want to over size by 10-20% to cover NetMetering losses (20% loss on round trip to grid and back). If you are 101% you’ll end up paying 10-20%.

My ROI was quicker (6 years or so) with the better SRECs. I get back like $2-3K a year (at the start). But only for 10 years.

How did you get 12kw? Because it’s commercial?

Is there a residential limit in NH too?
I’d like to get 12kw in NH.
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Old 03-12-2022, 02:49 PM   #112
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12 KW install was not in NH, we are out west and the limit here is closer to 25kW.
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Old 03-12-2022, 03:05 PM   #113
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Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great
Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.
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Old 03-12-2022, 04:02 PM   #114
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Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.
I’m not surprised you think driving isn’t fun in a $10K car that’s 12 years old with the closest thing to crank down windows you can find.

I wouldn’t either.
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Old 03-12-2022, 05:04 PM   #115
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I didn't find driving fun in a brand new convertible sports car either.
I find driving to be tedious. Something I must do rather than desire to.
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Old 03-12-2022, 05:24 PM   #116
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I didn't find driving fun in a brand new convertible sports car either.
I find driving to be tedious. Something I must do rather than desire to.
If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.
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Old 03-12-2022, 06:50 PM   #117
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I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.

Conjecture and opinions. I stand by my own.
Buy what works for you.
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Old 03-12-2022, 06:53 PM   #118
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Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

If you took these as “cheap shots”, that’s your own perception. I said it is exactly why SOME people buy them. I don’t recall specifically saying or implying that was why YOU bought one.
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Old 03-12-2022, 06:56 PM   #119
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If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.

This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..
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Old 03-12-2022, 09:54 PM   #120
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If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.
Monetary efficiency.
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Old 03-12-2022, 11:47 PM   #121
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This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..
I think more meaningless as Elon is looking toward the self-driving vehicle.
Amory wasn't thinking of self-driving when he worked on the hypercar... just much more efficient.

Gary Reysa, a retired Boeing engineer, was doing more of the work in solar.
He was working on using hydrogen as a storage medium. So it was a basic presumption that hydrogen would be used to power the hypercar.
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:02 AM   #122
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If you took these as “cheap shots”, that’s your own perception. I said it is exactly why SOME people buy them. I don’t recall specifically saying or implying that was why YOU bought one.
Actually, you said MOST people.
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:24 AM   #123
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This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..
It’s a stupid argument.

When folks are comparing Tesla’s they are usually comparing nicer cars like Audi’s, BMW’s, MB and if it’s worth switching to a Tesla. Or even a nice Hybrid. Not a 12 year old tin can. If driving cars isn’t important at all you could make a monetary argument it’s cheaper to go with 12 year tin can vs any car let a alone a Tesla.

It’s John turning yet another discussion into a stupid one.

Yes, it’s cheaper to drive old cheap cars.

You could argue it’s cheaper to not own a car and just use Uber too.

Why did he buy a new convertible sports car if he hates driving?
I don’t buy any of his BS, I think he’s bored and just trying to stir things up.

What challenge?
You making up more stuff in your head of how others are thinking again?
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Old 03-13-2022, 02:16 AM   #124
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But that is where it must go if it is to survive...
Life cycle and value.

I do not have the 12 year old car... it was given to someone that drove it another 4 years.

Current auto is 2016. I would be comparing a new car to a new car in the same brand... Tesla isn't on my list. It would be an Ioniq against an Accent. I don't spend enough time in a vehicle to make it worth more than basic transportation.

But the concept should be the same...
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Old 03-13-2022, 05:40 AM   #125
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It’s a stupid argument.

When folks are comparing Tesla’s they are usually comparing nicer cars like Audi’s, BMW’s, MB and if it’s worth switching to a Tesla. Or even a nice Hybrid. Not a 12 year old tin can. If driving cars isn’t important at all you could make a monetary argument it’s cheaper to go with 12 year tin can vs any car let a alone a Tesla.

It’s John turning yet another discussion into a stupid one.

Yes, it’s cheaper to drive old cheap cars.

You could argue it’s cheaper to not own a car and just use Uber too.

Why did he buy a new convertible sports car if he hates driving?
I don’t buy any of his BS, I think he’s bored and just trying to stir things up.

What challenge?
You making up more stuff in your head of how others are thinking again?
John's point above was that the "math doesn't work for [him]," which I think is an essential point both personally and as a culture.

I've pointed out a few times that your financial assumptions aren't reality for the sizable majority of America.

Yes, Teslas/EVs have great tech, may be fun to drive, and may, if all things come together, be financially and ecologically efficient.

But for $96k, the price of your Tesla SUV, I could buy two 4Runners and 20+ years of service.

Or three Subarus and 30+ years of service...

It's no different than the guy who chose two rolls of toilet paper yesterday rather than the multi-pack that saves 25% and comes more easily packaged: to buy into solar or EVs usually requires money people don't have.

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Old 03-13-2022, 09:24 AM   #126
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John's point above was that the "math doesn't work for [him]," which I think is an essential point both personally and as a culture.

I've pointed out a few times that your financial assumptions aren't reality for the sizable majority of America.

Yes, Teslas/EVs have great tech, may be fun to drive, and may, if all things come together, be financially and ecologically efficient.

But for $96k, the price of your Tesla SUV, I could buy two 4Runners and 20+ years of service.

Or three Subarus and 30+ years of service...

It's no different than the guy who chose two rolls of toilet paper yesterday rather than the multi-pack that saves 25% and comes more easily packaged: to buy into solar or EVs usually requires money people don't have.

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I’ve repeatedly said you are not gonna save money driving a Model S or X.
But if these depreciations hold (which they probably won’t) I could end up spending as much as you did on 2 forerunners. Depreciation is about 2% over the last 2.5 years. Maybe a 4Runner is too.

Just as you can’t compare a civic to and say an Audi. You can’t compare a 4Runner to a Model X. I could make the same argument it’s dumb to buy a 4Runner when you can get a Subaru.

Someone on the Tesla Forum that lives in an RV park and owns a golf cart was trying to sort out charging. He does like 10 miles a week (mostly in his golf cart). No a Tesla is a complete loss. He will lose 10 miles a week with the car just sitting there.

We are in a thread about gas prices. If you don’t drive much, who cares. We should be discussing similar cars and the trade off of EV vs Gas. Not cheap cars vs expensive ones. Or your needs of driving a lot or a little. Not really interested in discussing that. But John likes to twist topics.

That said , you can’t compare a Tesla to anything else.

It’s a blazing hot day, we drive by this place that looks good to eat. But we have the dogs with us. No problem put it doggy mode.

I’m in the garage working on my app, or waiting for my wife at the hospital. Turn the car on and watch a movie. No fumes nothing. It’s so nice having a car that does not spew poisonous gases.

It’s late, I’m tired, I made a bad judgement call and I’m driving. The car swerves to avoid a pedestrian.

I could go on and on. It’s a one year waiting list to get a Model X. And it’s not due to parts shortages.

Stuck in traffic, turn on Biohazard mode.

People camp in them. By putting them in Camp mode.

Acceleration is the last reason I get Tesla an I leave in Chill mode 99% of the time.

What are the chances of a Roll over in 4Runner vs a Model X?
That alone is worth it to me and you can’t put a price on it.
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Old 03-13-2022, 09:37 AM   #127
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I’ve repeatedly said you are not gonna save money driving a Model S or X.
There are two points I and others are making here:

1. That, on a thread about fuel costs, the answer isn't simply electric vehicles as there's much more to the equation than just fuel.

2. The "offhand" way people talk about buying EVs, solar, and other high-initial-cost systems that just isn't realistic for much/most of America.

I'd love a vehicle I don't have to put fuel in, but it would need to be overall cost effective, have a low initial buy-in, and be able to do what I need it to do beyond just driving.

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Old 03-13-2022, 10:35 AM   #128
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There are two points I and others are making here:

1. That, on a thread about fuel costs, the answer isn't simply electric vehicles as there's much more to the equation than just fuel.

2. The "offhand" way people talk about buying EVs, solar, and other high-initial-cost systems that just isn't realistic for much/most of America.

I'd love a vehicle I don't have to put fuel in, but it would need to be overall cost effective, have a low initial buy-in, and be able to do what I need it to do beyond just driving.

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Agreed.

Keep in mind, that this forum isn’t average America

Many here have two homes (one on the lake).
Many have expensive boats.
Many have a home.
Many have multiple expensive cars.

So why do we keep bringing up folks that can’t afford Solar?

I think many are misinformed about Solar, incentives and EV’s.

And as you said there are other perks going with EV besides fuel.

One other thing I’d like to mention that is on topic.

Conserving:

Once I got Solar, I had them add a consumption meter as well.
That was a good move, albeit a bit over priced.

Once you could visually see what you produced and consumed it became a game.

What’s using all the power?

After digging around I found a lot of waste.
My high end active speakers were using 20 watts each on standby.

Do the math 9 speakers * 20 watts * 24 hrs * 365 days = 1.57 mega watts/year
That’s 20% of my entire Solar Production !!
I put a smart remote in that now powers them down when not used.

Also found a heater that runs 24/7 in my brand new “high efficiency” AC system.
It was like 80 watts. Now I flip the breaker off in Winter. I need to make sure I wait a few days after I turn breaker on before I run A/C.

That savings right there was enough to cover all my EV charging.

I found many more with diminishing returns. But I probably cut my electricity use in half.

Conservation on EV:

Don’t precondition. So many people think they save fuel because the car will run full regen in winter if they preheat the battery. It will cost more to heat the battery than regen will save.

Some say switch to scheduled charging in the morning. That wastes fuel too. Car will heat the battery before it charges. You are better off charging when you get home with a warm battery.

Don’t use auto precondition when navigating to supercharger. It will save time charging. But it will net cost you. I don’t care because supercharging is free. But it’s still a waste of fuel to save time.

Get an attached insulated garage. That’s yet another requirement for EV I’d recommend in snow country. Not required, but really really nice to have. Battery does not get as cold and you don’t need to use fuel to melt Ice and snow.

All cars:

Make sure your tire pressure is up. I tended to run a few pounds above door tag on my ICE cars. Especially in winter. I always did long drives at night so my tires never get that hot (and pressure to high). This can save a LOT on fuel. I don’t do that on EV’s. Why? because Elon already knows that trick and they run the tires on the high side. Tires still lasted great.

Keep your distance with cars in front of you so you can coast to slower your speed rather than use brakes. Every time you hit the brakes you’re wasting fuel. It’s also safer and more relaxing. One thing I don’t like about Auto Pilot is it follows to close.

You don’t need to warm up ICE, just suck it up, get in and go. Doable with a garage.
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Old 03-13-2022, 11:13 AM   #129
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Agreed.

Keep in mind, that this forum isn’t average America

Many here have two homes (one on the lake).
Many have expensive boats.
Many have a home.
Many have multiple expensive cars.

So why do we keep bringing up folks that can’t afford Solar?
I don't know the statistics, but I know enough people behind the scenes that are not as well off as you might assume and, even if they have second homes, toys, etc., they may do so much less expensively.

So, I bring up initial investment costs because having that amount of available money just isn't as common as it once was...especially if one wants to enjoy those cars, toys, etc....which in turn limits how quickly green options become mainstream...

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Old 03-13-2022, 11:20 AM   #130
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But that is where it must go if it is to survive...
Life cycle and value.

I do not have the 12 year old car... it was given to someone that drove it another 4 years.

Current auto is 2016. I would be comparing a new car to a new car in the same brand... Tesla isn't on my list. It would be an Ioniq against an Accent. I don't spend enough time in a vehicle to make it worth more than basic transportation.

But the concept should be the same...
You inspired me to check more closely--Ioniq looks great! Really nice SUV with 300 miles of range for less than $40K after incentives. But isn't the Accent an econobox? Nothing wrong with that, but not really a direct comparison. The Hyundai website shows a number of EVs with direct comparisons to internal combustion that look really attractive. You might check out the electric Kona SUV--it appears to match the gas price, even before $7,500+ in tax rebates, and available this month in Mass. (but maybe there's fine print or a misleading website?)

Though I agree with msw on the math and this forum not being representative of America, I agree with you and Think on the general point that EVs need to be for everybody. Hyundai is on the right track
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Old 03-13-2022, 11:28 AM   #131
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Afford and ''waste'' are two different items.

People always tell me that saving more, when I will never need it, is stupid... but it is the way that I and others work.
We don't see depreciating assets as value, except for the monetary equation.

Solar, at least what I have been told, is based on location and system sizing for the most part. My location allows for some... but the biggest effect would be if I used more electricity, or if I wanted to replace domestic water heating.

The domestic water heating will be more of my focus as I redesign my raised beds.
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Old 03-13-2022, 11:35 AM   #132
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People clearly do not have a lot of savings - this is just transactional account data, not retirement accounts. The average American is not paying up front to add solar to their house, or buying $96k Tesla's. Those that are doing that are taking on debt to make it happen.

Average savings by age (per 2019 Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances) - the article I pulled this from - https://www.firstrepublic.com/articl...ricans-savings

Younger than 35
Median - $3,240 Mean - $11,250
35 to 44
Median - $4,710 Mean - $27,910
45 to 54
Median - $5,620 Mean - $48,200
55 to 64
Median - $6,400 Mean - $55,320
65 to 74
Median - $8,000 Mean - $57,670
75 and older
Median - $9,300 Mean - $60,410
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Old 03-13-2022, 12:13 PM   #133
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I think the costs will come down and be comparable over time.
Solar will fill whatever space it can in the diversified supply of electricity... but I really see it jumping when green hydrogen becomes the norm. Amory was on cars when Elon was just learning to use the big boy potty... and even back then he was strong on hydrogen; just the technology was more blue hydrogen being looked at.
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Old 03-13-2022, 12:59 PM   #134
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I don't know the statistics, but I know enough people behind the scenes that are not as well off as you might assume and, even if they have second homes, toys, etc., they may do so much less expensively.

So, I bring up initial investment costs because having that amount of available money just isn't as common as it once was...especially if one wants to enjoy those cars, toys, etc....which in turn limits how quickly green options become mainstream...

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Stop assuming you need to be rich to do Solar.
All your doing is convincing folks it’s out of reach.

You DO NOT need all cash up front. But that will give the best ROI.

Some lease deals go something like this. They lock you in at a lower electric rate. They upgrade your service for free. All repairs are free for 20 years. If system does not produce (broken or snow covered) they pay your electric bill. You pay nothing out of pocket. And system is yours free and clear after 20 years. Even folks that do have the cash go that route because they rather invest that cash.

Enough about being too poor for Solar. Too naive maybe.

It’s a no brainer.
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:08 PM   #135
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Stop assuming you need to be rich to do Solar.
All your doing is convincing folks it’s out of reach.

You DO NOT need all cash up front. But that will give the best ROI.

Some lease deals go something like this. They lock you in at a lower electric rate. They upgrade your service for free. All repairs are free for 20 years. If system does not produce (broken or snow covered) they pay your electric bill. You pay nothing out of pocket. And system is yours free and clear after 20 years. Even folks that do have the cash go that route because they rather invest that cash.

Enough about being too poor for Solar. Too naive maybe.

It’s a no brainer.
The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

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Old 03-13-2022, 01:19 PM   #136
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The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

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I have friends that leased and it worked out great for them

Your right about tricky selling your home with roof leased out. There are ways of dealing with that. Oh many companies will put in a new roof too.

All methods save money. Like anything, you need to stay on top of things and not sit back and let the “professionals” run the show. That goes for purchased or leased.

You can also do a loan. That’s right poor people have bad credit.
With a loan. You own it. You get tax break. You get all incentives like SRECs in MA.

With a loan. What you used to pay in electricity you pay towards the loan. So initially you save nothing. But as time goes on it pays back. Especially if electric rates go up.

https://www.consumerreports.org/ener...-solar-panels/

Great, you talked yourself out of it. I don’t know anyone that is unhappy with going with Solar by any means.

Is anyone here unhappy they got Solar?
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:36 PM   #137
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The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

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I was skeptical about solar but it made sense for me. I ended up with no money down, a state and federal refund (I was able to spread the federal over two years), 10 years of SREC credits that provide a quarterly check, a below market rate loan, and net metering. The loan program I qualified for wrote off 25% of the cost of the install the day the system went live (but I could still deduct 100% of the cost on my taxes). Since having it installed my electric bill is nothing for 9 months of the year and the three months I do pay are lower than what they were before the panels. The monthly electric bill coupled with the SREC checks offsets the loan. I would have liked to make the system bigger as I had the space, but if I had, I would not have been eligible for the 25% write off and favorable loan rate.

I found out about this program (I am in MA) through a friend who is a green energy consultant. Once I connected with an installer who also knew about the program, things went smoothly.

I don't believe this specific program is still around, but do agree that there are affordable ways to go solar for many people (but of course not everyone).
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Old 03-13-2022, 01:49 PM   #138
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I believe that MA did a lot more toward solar - renewable in general - than NH did.
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:33 PM   #139
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I believe that MA did a lot more toward solar - renewable in general - than NH did.
When I put mine in I was told that MA was #2 in the nation for clean energy incentives. This was a few years ago - I don't know how accurate that was then or now.
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Old 03-13-2022, 05:41 PM   #140
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Most of the sweet heart deals are going by the wayside in Mass. if not already expired, my guess is because all that "free" stuff that went along with the programs got to expensive to sustain. The new SREC program is nowhere near as lucrative as the previous one, the quote I showed above shows "potential" payouts by the program.

That being said, it can work for some people. Once I can get National Grid off their arse, and my new service into my barn, I will be strongly considering adding it to the roof to help offset some of my electrical usage. I will be doing quite a bit of electrical intensive activities in there (welding/plasma cutting/air compressor) and am hoping this will help offset some of the increase in my expected electrical usage at the expense of outlaying the 40 grand up front...
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Old 03-13-2022, 06:14 PM   #141
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I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

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I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is >15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)
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Old 03-13-2022, 09:19 PM   #142
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I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is >15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)
My problem is lack of house commitment.
I buy one, make careful upgrades that are likely to yield a return (or at least not a loss), find another home, and do it again.

My longest ownership ever was 4 years. I’ve owned 4 homes since 2014.

It’s always “the one” until it isn’t.

Because of that, it would make no sense to install solar under any circumstances, unless I was stone cold settled on staying for 20 years. Of course, as soon as I make that commitment, I’ll see another house the next day

I’m not complaining: It’s been financially favorable, but we always joke about never going too far with upgrades.
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Old 03-13-2022, 10:04 PM   #143
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My problem is lack of house commitment.
I buy one, make careful upgrades that are likely to yield a return (or at least not a loss), find another home, and do it again.

My longest ownership ever was 4 years. I’ve owned 4 homes since 2014.

It’s always “the one” until it isn’t.

Because of that, it would make no sense to install solar under any circumstances, unless I was stone cold settled on staying for 20 years. Of course, as soon as I make that commitment, I’ll see another house the next day

I’m not complaining: It’s been financially favorable, but we always joke about never going too far with upgrades.
Be careful. Sounds like a lot of eggs in one basket. Another 2008 will come again and the eggs will all break at the same time.
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Old 03-13-2022, 11:56 PM   #144
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My problem is lack of house commitment.
I buy one, make careful upgrades that are likely to yield a return (or at least not a loss), find another home, and do it again.

My longest ownership ever was 4 years. I’ve owned 4 homes since 2014.

It’s always “the one” until it isn’t.

Because of that, it would make no sense to install solar under any circumstances, unless I was stone cold settled on staying for 20 years. Of course, as soon as I make that commitment, I’ll see another house the next day

I’m not complaining: It’s been financially favorable, but we always joke about never going too far with upgrades.
On average, houses will sell better with Solar.
It’s like any other investment in your home.

They ask for utility bills, right?
Buyer sees $0.00, you think theirs eyes would light up!

It’s hard to go wrong with Solar.
Folks here seem to try real hard to find reasons to give power companies their money.
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Old 03-14-2022, 03:54 AM   #145
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I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is >15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)
It's an equation with many variables, among which is the cost now vs. the cost over 30 years.

Other variables—for us—were roof age, roof orientation and tree cover questions, town tax codes (my town was, until recently, increasing home values with solar so there was an increase in taxes), initial investment costs, etc.

It's been a couple years, but when we'd looked we had heard too many horror stories about leasing and the other variables just didn't add up.

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Old 03-14-2022, 05:10 AM   #146
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Be careful. Sounds like a lot of eggs in one basket. Another 2008 will come again and the eggs will all break at the same time.
I’m fine, thank you.
I just happen to change houses a lot.
It’s not an investment strategy. I have other holdings.

The nerve of people

I’m well aware of 2008 and weathered it.
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Old 03-14-2022, 05:13 AM   #147
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On average, houses will sell better with Solar.
It’s like any other investment in your home.

They ask for utility bills, right?
Buyer sees $0.00, you think theirs eyes would light up!

It’s hard to go wrong with Solar.
Folks here seem to try real hard to find reasons to give power companies their money.
Who cares if it sells for more, but you still lose $ in the sale overall? Do you sell solar?

Should you do an $80k upgrade to get $50k more sale price?

Installing solar in a short term own would not work out well for anyone other than a solar salesman.
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Old 03-14-2022, 09:17 AM   #148
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Who cares if it sells for more, but you still lose $ in the sale overall? Do you sell solar?

Should you do an $80k upgrade to get $50k more sale price?

Installing solar in a short term own would not work out well for anyone other than a solar salesman.
Right now, I bet people that paid $20K will get $40K
Or with the housing market likely to crash soon, Solar could be the edge that makes your house sell and your neighbors not.

Must be fun moving every 4 years.

I don’t make my home my profit center.
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Old 03-14-2022, 09:22 AM   #149
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The topic of this thread is "what effect high fuel costs will have on boating this summer."

Please stop hijacking threads. Stay with the topic or don't post.
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Old 03-14-2022, 09:43 AM   #150
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My boat will be launched in late April - I'm excited to be back on the water and opening up the house regardless of the price of fuel!

I don't think fuel prices will have much impact on boating in the short term. If prices stay high I think any impact will show up in 2023.
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Old 03-14-2022, 09:57 AM   #151
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“cost of fuel” last I looked.
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Old 03-14-2022, 01:32 PM   #152
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Now that I've got two skis on a double trailer, I may be inclined to fill up at the local station rather than on the water.

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Old 03-14-2022, 02:26 PM   #153
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Default Cost of fuel...

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Right now, I bet people that paid $20K will get $40K
Or with the housing market likely to crash soon, Solar could be the edge that makes your house sell and your neighbors not.

Must be fun moving every 4 years.

I don’t make my home my profit center.

“Must be fun moving every 4 years.”

How about minding your own business?

People like you, making judgement with little to no information. It says a lot more about you than it does me. You have no idea why I moved a lot, do you?

You’re just another salesman who thinks everyone should be your customer.

“Everyone needs solar”. Ok, buddy.

I don’t care what you do or don’t do with your home.
See how that works? Got nothing useful to interact with? Move on.

Edit: “Ignore” feature activated.
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Old 03-14-2022, 04:56 PM   #154
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“Must be fun moving every 4 years.”

How about minding your own business?

People like you, making judgement with little to no information. It says a lot more about you than it does me. You have no idea why I moved a lot, do you?

You’re just another salesman who thinks everyone should be your customer.

“Everyone needs solar”. Ok, buddy.

I don’t care what you do or don’t do with your home.
See how that works? Got nothing useful to interact with? Move on.

Edit: “Ignore” feature activated.
Warden said… Stay on topic.
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Old 03-14-2022, 05:36 PM   #155
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My boat will be launched in late April - I'm excited to be back on the water and opening up the house regardless of the price of fuel!

I don't think fuel prices will have much impact on boating in the short term. If prices stay high I think any impact will show up in 2023.
I expect that most will be.
High fuel, or any other item, tends to only change our behavior at the fringe.

If the prices went ballistic, well, I think that would be different.
It would impact the economy so badly that politicians would need to pull out all the stops. Something that I think we have not seen in my adult lifetime.
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Old 03-14-2022, 08:34 PM   #156
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Sorry for contributing to the off topic mess...

That being said, oil slid today, so it is anyone's guess at this point what the summer prices will look like! I trailer my boat, so will make sure to be filling on land, the week we stay at Winni, we have lots of friends with us who are overly generous with helping fuel the boat for the week we are there adventuring. All together it is still way cheaper than a week at someplace like disney, and in my opinion, way more fun! See you guys on the lake!
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Old 03-18-2022, 02:58 PM   #157
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Hopefully it doesn't get any worse than this..... then again we out here are a little on the expensive side - cheapo ethanol laced gas is about 10 cents cheaper per gallon. I steer clear of that crap though. Love this stuff is everywhere and my vehicles love it. So will my boat which may get splashed this weekend. Hopefully nobody pays attention to my expired 2021 NH reg on it.
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Old 03-18-2022, 08:28 PM   #158
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Maxum did you move off the lake?

The guys in the hot rod world love E85 if you can set the EFI up the right way with larger fuel pump, injectors, etc., it makes lots o power! I never bothered with my race car because E85 is tough to find out here.
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Old 03-19-2022, 05:09 PM   #159
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Maxum did you move off the lake?

The guys in the hot rod world love E85 if you can set the EFI up the right way with larger fuel pump, injectors, etc., it makes lots o power! I never bothered with my race car because E85 is tough to find out here.
I didn't just move off the lake, I moved to Idaho. For sure the hardest thing was to part ways with was my place on Bear Island. Thing is as I was weighing a lot of things, the property taxes in NH are just plain stupid and long term planning for retirement was looking bleak at the prospects of being able to hang on to two properties in NH as the amount of the checks I was stroking for taxes alone was getting to be insane now never mind 10 or 30 years from now.

No worries I'll be back to visit.
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Old 03-19-2022, 05:16 PM   #160
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They estimate that your investment portfolio must be about 7.5 times the value of your home(s) to maintain your standard of living.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...41.4%20million.
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Old 03-19-2022, 05:22 PM   #161
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I didn't just move off the lake, I moved to Idaho. For sure the hardest thing was to part ways with was my place on Bear Island. Thing is as I was weighing a lot of things, the property taxes in NH are just plain stupid and long term planning for retirement was looking bleak at the prospects of being able to hang on to two properties in NH as the amount of the checks I was stroking for taxes alone was getting to be insane now never mind 10 or 30 years from now.

No worries I'll be back to visit.
I've been to Kuna. I was stationed at Mountain Home AFB in the 1972-74. There was an exit off the interstate that said "Kuna" that we passed by the times. We took the exit one time and it was not much more than a cross road. It sure has grown.

Enjoy your time out there. We spent a lot of time camping around Anderson Ranch Dam and up toward the Trinity Lake area.

Back to the subject at hand.

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Old 03-20-2022, 10:18 AM   #162
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They estimate that your investment portfolio must be about 7.5 times the value of your home(s) to maintain your standard of living...
While the formulae in that article may be (very crudely) ballpark for some folks in some areas, the article is fairly useless in many areas of NH lakes region. The market value of lakefront homes often is a poor indication of the income or living standard of the owners. Recent years have pushed market values way up, but that is a reflection of the buying power and perhaps living standard of prospective owners, not the current owners.
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Old 03-20-2022, 10:53 AM   #163
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Must keep in mind a fallback position for staying in your home as one ages is a reverse mortgage. Many law and rule changes over the past 20 years makes this a valuable tool in our later years. One should not be sitting on a million dollar lake house and have difficulty paying bills


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Old 03-20-2022, 12:10 PM   #164
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While the formulae in that article may be (very crudely) ballpark for some folks in some areas, the article is fairly useless in many areas of NH lakes region. The market value of lakefront homes often is a poor indication of the income or living standard of the owners. Recent years have pushed market values way up, but that is a reflection of the buying power and perhaps living standard of prospective owners, not the current owners.
We are a little off track here... but the cost of fuel will impact everything.

The NH property taxes will make up the difference.

Even studies in NH show that most retirees are more concerned with the amount of income they currently have... future prospects are for Medicare costs to increase (Part A Trust fund insolvency would result in lower payouts to hospitals) and decreased OASI (Social Security) monthly benefits.

*Update... the govt cap is now 970,800. I think when Peter Bennett updated his blog he forgot to update that number.




But even if we took a prior to dramatic price increases... a very low percentage of residents are meeting the mark. Early retirees are usually happy... but the longer they live the worse it gets. That may be the result of too much spending in early retirement, or trying to cover the deferment of property repair/upgrade prepping for physical changes.

Also, according to Peter Bennett - a staff writer at MyBankTracker.com, there is a govt cap on HECM provided with FHA of 625,500 regardless of the value of the home and a 1.25% annual premium. The only private lender going beyond that cap is Tulsa, Okla.-based Urban Financial of America. They will go 40% of equity up to $2.5 million... but no competition means high fees.

The cost of fuel will have both short and long term impacts as it builds into our system. We may see the prices in the future fall, but they generally do not fall back to where they were prior to the surge. Boating, as with many things, is a long term commitment. Yes, some will sell-out, as I did... but many will need to adjust short term to endure long term. The ''offsets'' will differ for each boater, but the ''offsets'' also have longer term effects.

I am sure that marinas are needing to think about product like we are. They will need to determine how much product to purchase for future demand years ahead of delivery due to the supply lines. Restaurants/etc may be trying to determine what they need for this summer... but even they have to think about the longer term capital investments that they will be making in the business.

Last edited by John Mercier; 03-20-2022 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 03-31-2022, 09:29 AM   #165
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Default Biden to tap into petroleum reserve...

Isn't tapping into your petroleum reserve to lower fuel costs like...

Tapping into your savings account to stem your loss of wealth? If you take from your left hand and give it to the right, the body as a whole has not improved.
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Old 03-31-2022, 09:35 AM   #166
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Isn't tapping into your petroleum reserve to lower fuel costs like...

Tapping into your savings account to stem your loss of wealth? If you take from your left hand and give it to the right, the body as a whole has not improved.
Correct, grasshopper


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Old 03-31-2022, 12:45 PM   #167
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Isn't tapping into your petroleum reserve to lower fuel costs like...

Tapping into your savings account to stem your loss of wealth? If you take from your left hand and give it to the right, the body as a whole has not improved.
And if we tap into the reserve, isn't it only enough for a couple of days?
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Old 03-31-2022, 01:46 PM   #168
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And if we tap into the reserve, isn't it only enough for a couple of days?
At our current consumption rate of about 20 million barrels a day, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve would last only 36 days if we were faced with a situation where the oil had to be released all at once.

However, only 4.4 million barrels a day can be withdrawn, extending our supply to 165 days
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Old 03-31-2022, 02:52 PM   #169
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Default throwback to March 13, 2020

“Based on the price of oil, I’ve also instructed the Secretary of Energy to purchase at a very good price large quantities of crude oil for storage in the U.S. strategic reserve,” US President said.

“We’re going to fill it right up to the top, saving the American taxpayer billions and billions of dollars, helping our oil industry [and furthering] that wonderful goal — which we’ve achieved, which nobody thought was possible — of energy independence,” he added.
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:24 PM   #170
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And from what country will we be purchasing the replacement petroleum?
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:37 PM   #171
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You guys just don't understand how this works.

We buy massive amounts of oil, and store it in caverns in the ground. Then every day we buy massive amounts of oil and consume it, but in the process of consuming it we have Big Oil companies doing the refining of the final products we use. It is imperative that each Big Oil company has hundreds if not thousands of employees making over a million dollars a year, to supervise the 10's of thousands of refinery and transportation workers that make $40,000 to $70,000 a year. All those massive salaries combined with share buybacks and shareholder dividends put the price at the pump at all time highs. Therefore the government releases the oil purchased at lower prices from the reserve and replaces it with high priced oil, while Big Oil still makes all that money on every gallon we consume, even the oil from the reserves. Simple, see?

All kidding aside, oil companies are using this high priced environment to pad their profits at record levels at the expense of all of us, while still being handed money by the government. It's out of control.
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Old 03-31-2022, 04:28 PM   #172
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LikeLakes, I think I understand, but my wife owns the car, so she buys the gas. Higher gas prices just don't affect me. She owns the house too, so I don't pay for oil either. On the other hand, I own a piece of Exxon and Chevron and I don't share the dividends, so it's all balanced out.
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Old 03-31-2022, 05:12 PM   #173
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And from what country will we be purchasing the replacement petroleum?
The US. It is always purchased from US suppliers when the market price is low, and sold into the market of US refiners when the market prices is high.

The price is set globally, but the physical stock is transported the shortest distance available.
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Old 03-31-2022, 05:22 PM   #174
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“Based on the price of oil, I’ve also instructed the Secretary of Energy to purchase at a very good price large quantities of crude oil for storage in the U.S. strategic reserve,” US President said.

“We’re going to fill it right up to the top, saving the American taxpayer billions and billions of dollars, helping our oil industry [and furthering] that wonderful goal — which we’ve achieved, which nobody thought was possible — of energy independence,” he added.
We achieved energy independence largely through the extreme capital investment that allowed for supply growth to be higher than demand growth.
Demand growth was then initiated with the ban on Venezuelan petroleum products, and increases in the amount of export to historic levels.

With US demand higher, and European demand absorbing more, the prices are going to be higher until the global demand drops.

Companies involved in exploration and extraction are not going to hire and train new crews, or expend massive capital on inflated equipment prices and fractured supply lines... as investors we expect a ROI, and that means really good dividends for the coming years - not more investment into heady over-the-top expansion.
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Old 03-31-2022, 05:26 PM   #175
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Simple message. Our politicians are useless. No matter what side you are on we should never be in this position. Gas should be somewhere between $2-$3. They never admit to the real issue. New refineries, pipelines and incentives would eliminate this problem. It has nothing to do with clean energy. Does anyone with half a brain really believe that we can't build clean energy facilities in 2022. What Washington needs is more engineers and less lawyers. Such a disgrace.
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Old 03-31-2022, 05:27 PM   #176
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The benefit is to the producing countries like Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Russia.

Can't be a beneficiary, if you don't produce.

Maybe the USA should return to #1 exporter and complete independence? Be a win-win for the Home team!
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Old 03-31-2022, 05:43 PM   #177
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LikeLakes, I think I understand, but my wife owns the car, so she buys the gas. Higher gas prices just don't affect me. She owns the house too, so I don't pay for oil either. On the other hand, I own a piece of Exxon and Chevron and I don't share the dividends, so it's all balanced out.
Does she have a sister? Do you happen to have a picture? (Asking for a friend)
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Old 03-31-2022, 05:46 PM   #178
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The oil companies have laid out plans to return capital to investors.
They have laid out that hiring/training new crews and purchasing new equipment will be done on a long term strategic program. No one can make them change.
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Old 03-31-2022, 06:09 PM   #179
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The benefit is to the producing countries like Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Russia.

Can't be a beneficiary, if you don't produce.

Maybe the USA should return to #1 exporter and complete independence? Be a win-win for the Home team!
We have never been the #1 net exporter; and we are the #1 producer.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/what...Saudi%20Arabia.
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Old 03-31-2022, 08:08 PM   #180
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We achieved energy independence largely through the extreme capital investment that allowed for supply growth to be higher than demand growth.
Demand growth was then initiated with the ban on Venezuelan petroleum products, and increases in the amount of export to historic levels.

With US demand higher, and European demand absorbing more, the prices are going to be higher until the global demand drops.

Companies involved in exploration and extraction are not going to hire and train new crews, or expend massive capital on inflated equipment prices and fractured supply lines... as investors we expect a ROI, and that means really good dividends for the coming years - not more investment into heady over-the-top expansion.
John, excellent points. I'd add that all exploration and R&D are not the same. The major investment and focus on fracked and other new tech over the past decade plus proved to be only financially viable in times of higher oil prices, and the half life of the wells is very short, so they don't have anywhere near as much time and quantity to amortize the investment over. I don't think we'll see that extreme push again, even given the high current oil prices. They are able to sit back, do what they do, and operate at massively profitable levels.
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Old 03-31-2022, 09:19 PM   #181
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Devon, which I think is still the largest independent in shale, expects to grow its output by about 5 percent annually. But most of its earnings are going to be returned as dividends to its investors... rather than sunk into expansion.
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Old 03-31-2022, 09:39 PM   #182
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Very interesting conversation ! so with all said here gas prices are really going to suck this year
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Old 04-01-2022, 06:36 AM   #183
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Believe I saw $5.19 at Winnisquam marine earlier this week


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Old 04-01-2022, 06:50 AM   #184
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...... say-hey ..... lose the gasoline burning engine ..... and go with a kayak or sup paddle .... age-68; a NH fishing license price goes from $45 down to $7-dollars ..... while boat gas will cost about $5 to $6 /gal ..... .... and big, fast V-6 outboards burn up a lot of gas!
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Old 04-01-2022, 09:16 AM   #185
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Very interesting conversation ! so with all said here gas prices are really going to suck this year
I don't have a clue where gas prices are going to go over the next year. I tend to think they will back off a bit from these highs but remain elevated through the year.

The world has more than enough oil even without Russia, just need a re-balancing and as someone else mentioned there is a need for more refining capacity. But there isn't a supply reason why crude prices can't drop, I'm sure oil producers will try to ride this cash cow as long as they can by not increasing production as much as they probably could.
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Old 04-01-2022, 05:19 PM   #186
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With all the gasoline being used for recreation and travel to second homes... it hasn't slowed... and so gasoline/oil are a reasonable risk/reward balance for stable-to-higher prices.

The downside is demand destruction - we saw short term during the pandemic and oil futures actually went negative; while the upside is maybe a natural disaster like Katrina.
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Old 04-01-2022, 05:45 PM   #187
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I believe in 2025 when President Trump takes back the office, you will see a extreme difference in the way Liberals have been running the show. Biden wants us to think this is the " New Normal ". It's not nor ever will be. In November things will start to change, it will be different. When you see this Great Country come back around will be 1 day after President Trump takes office in 2025. Hope I live that long. We can't continue to spiral out of control like this. Gas will be back down to an affordable $$ for average people.
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Old 04-01-2022, 06:12 PM   #188
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Good one….you got us!
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Old 04-01-2022, 06:14 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatbottom952 View Post
I believe in 2025 when President Trump takes back the office, you will see a extreme difference in the way Liberals have been running the show. Biden wants us to think this is the " New Normal ". It's not nor ever will be. In November things will start to change, it will be different. When you see this Great Country come back around will be 1 day after President Trump takes office in 2025. Hope I live that long. We can't continue to spiral out of control like this. Gas will be back down to an affordable $$ for average people.
I've long believed our democracy operates like a pendulum...Always trying to approach the center, with the swings from left-to-right, right-to-left... sometimes a bit more forceful, like it has been in the last few years. And I agree, in November the pendulum will swing again toward the center. Notice AOC is not in the news as frequently?
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Old 04-01-2022, 06:39 PM   #190
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Default What is the current pump price???

For regular in the Lakes Region? Out here, on the left coast, it's over $6.

I'll be back there buyin' soon!
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Old 04-01-2022, 08:15 PM   #191
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I believe in 2025 when President Trump takes back the office, you will see a extreme difference in the way Liberals have been running the show. Biden wants us to think this is the " New Normal ". It's not nor ever will be. In November things will start to change, it will be different. When you see this Great Country come back around will be 1 day after President Trump takes office in 2025. Hope I live that long. We can't continue to spiral out of control like this. Gas will be back down to an affordable $$ for average people.
Capitalism... not politics... creates the pricing.
President Trump shut of the Venezuelan oil and shifted us to Russia.
He also opened up the door for more shipment overseas of LNG.
He broke the Iran deal, that took Iranian oil out of the picture.

But in the end... it is simply that you use too much. Same thing happened in wood when he was sitting as President... just too much demand for the commodity.
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