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02-23-2006, 10:53 AM | #1 |
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Maybe HB162 will have a different—and highly desireable—effect.
While searching PFDs, I found that kite-boarders (or kite-surfers), have a unique complaint about PFDs. It turns out that when they "crash" (like a waterskier's fall), they really get beat up by the PFD—and even fall out of it! While the PFD keeps one afloat, kite-boarders often hit the water harder, and the PFD retards a clean "entry". It certainly doesn't help that they can't let go instantly, as a skier can. They "de-power" the kite—a curved, automobile-sized, sail. Instead, they buy specialized vests that don't knock the wind out of them when they crash. (Kite-boarders usually crash at 26-MPH or less). For security, some of these vests feature "grooves", "funnels", "mesh" and a side-entry! They don't float as well as a CG-approved PFD, however. (I've had the wind knocked out of me with a NH-mandated ski belt). At HB162-friendly speeds, PFDs usually stay on skiers and boaters. Exceeding HB162 speeds, however, have resulted in PFDs being torn off upon impact with the water with fatal results. (We saw a double-fatality last summer—posted here). Even 45MPH is a very high boating speed I've read—somewhere. It's been reported that eight out of ten victims in fatal boating accidents were not wearing PFDs. It's a good thing to promote PFD-wearing. In 2005, the Coast Guard proposed 100% of boaters wear PFDs when moving. It got shot down—in favor of "Education". PFDs will prove to be more effective at HB162 speeds than at "no-limit" speeds. |
02-24-2006, 12:31 AM | #2 |
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Are you telling us that you pull skiiers on Winni at 45MPH or above? Perhaps I read that wrong, but if that is the case what does the comment "PFDs will prove to be more effective at HB162 speeds than "no-limit" speeds", mean?
PFDs are a life saving device. When I conducted vessel safety inspections on recreational boats I used to encourage parents, usually the mother, to play a game with the kids. One day when they are beached throw PFDs in the water and challenge the kids, as well as Mom and Dad to get into them, make it a game! First one wins an ice cream or something like that. After doing that a couple of times parents (boaters) learn that getting into a PFD in the water is not easy! PFDs on skiiers are meant to keep the skiier floating so that you can get to him/her before they drown. PFDs as a life saving device should be worn, but as we all know, they aren't. |
02-24-2006, 12:51 AM | #3 |
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As a side note, there is a little difference between a PFD and a water skiing vest, although both are USCG certified.
http://www.shopzilla.com/7X--Watersk...106__start--30 |
02-24-2006, 12:54 AM | #4 |
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A water ski vest and Type III PFD is one in the same.
Some look like the photo above, some are the orange PFDs that many boats have on board, but both are Type III. Just don't use an orange Type III PFD water skiing! I remember as a kid when it was okay to use a white foam belt as a water skiing PFD! |
02-24-2006, 07:29 AM | #5 | |
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"Towing a Person Legally with a Vessel Vessel operators towing a person(s) on water skis, aquaplanes, or any other devices must also obey these laws: All persons being towed behind a vessel on water skis or any other device must wear a U. S. Coast Guard-approved Type I, II or III personal flotation device (life jacket). Ski belts are not approved personal flotation devices and are illegal." |
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02-24-2006, 08:12 AM | #6 |
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Skibelts are not acceptable for pfd's in NH.I grew up skiing using a skibelt.My father was always yelling at me for biting that foamy thing.Something about that spongy foam.APS,I would think the neoprene vests would work well for kite-skiing.
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02-24-2006, 10:02 AM | #7 | |
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That was then this is now.
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As for high speed why not wear what race boat driver wear? |
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02-24-2006, 11:31 AM | #8 | |
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02-24-2006, 02:54 PM | #9 | |
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How about in one sentence?
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02-25-2006, 08:32 AM | #10 |
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I waterski around 32-37 mph. When cutting across the wake on one ski you easily reach 45 mph+. I have fallen plenty and never had a problem and I weigh 230 lbs. HB 162 will do nothing to help with this IMO. A skier going 40 mph still faces plenty of danger crossing a wake.
Again I believe HB 162 will have a completely different and undesirable effect on the lake. High speed chases for one. Now that so called 5% of boaters that are gfbl boaters, who according to some here are driving drunk. You think that drunk guy will stop? I think he will go faster and become more reckless. Driving drunk is extremely stupid but unfortunately people do stupid things. Why not do one more stupid thing and try and outrun MP? How about those young PWC drivers. Think they will stop for MP when they are already going 70 mph? I am 37 years old now and have matured quite a bit since 18 but when I was 18 I question what I would do on a PWC. A PWC can travel in inches of water. The first place a law-breaking,fleeing PWC would go would be the shallows, where people fish and swim. Imagine what could happen there. I am sorry but I see much more undesireable effects coming from HB 162 than desireable. To much wasted time and effort for very little results. It also restricts too many law abiding citizens. The 200k sport cruiser that can do 80 mph. 45 mph is slow in these . The fisherman who wakes up at 6 am to fly across the empty, crystal clear lake in his 90mph bass boat to get to his favorite spot, now must go 45 mph. How about that responsible guy who bought his 80 mph PWC to satisfy his need for speed. Even the trick barefooter will be restricted. I know very few people do this but you need to go over 45 mph to to trick barefooting. I have seen barefooting and depending on the weight of the person,at 45 mph you are normally barely planning the water with your feet. Again IMO this law will do absolutely nothing to help improve safety on the lake. Uneducated boaters pose a much greater risk.I have been boating for well over 10 years now and have never had an incident with a speeding boat. They all usually go fast, way out in a big lake, where it is safe. Maybe not the post for this story but here is one of my little experiences with an uneducated boater. I was boating on a very small lake(with a 30 mph speed limit BTW). We were anchored and our 2 kids were swimming and jumpiing off the boat. A young driver driving a small 16' boat or so was pulling a waterskier at about 25mph. I believe he was trying to show off and he passed in between my boat and a canoe coming within a couple feet of both of us. He actually did it a second time! Then I became mad and followed him until he stopped. He had no idea about the 150' law and could not understand my anger. "What if one of my kids were swimming under water just off my boat?", I screamed!? I don't even want to think about it . On any lake I fear the uneducated boater much more that the educated 100mph boater.This is based on my own experiences. If we need to spend all this time and possibly money lets spend it on more boater education, not a useless speed limit. |
02-25-2006, 11:41 AM | #11 |
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Boats going at high rates of speed, drunks behind the helm of boats, people pulling waterskiers and tubers at hight rates of speed, fisherman and pwc's screaming across the lake. Basically you're saying if HB 162 passes things will stay the same then.....
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02-25-2006, 12:06 PM | #12 |
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As a side note, either the cruise ship ran out of fuel or someone is enjoying Nassau; because the ship's speed is zero.
The cat's still away, so continue with your play... Last edited by GWC...; 02-25-2006 at 02:14 PM. |
02-25-2006, 01:58 PM | #13 |
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Maybe, maybe not.
If you read the post on the cruise, you will see that he is still monitoring the website. Sooooooooooooo, remember, Big Brother, er the Boss, er our Exalted Leader, oh you know, the webmaster who makes all this possible is still out there watching the shop. Kinda like our parents...they had eyes in the back of their head, and must have had hidden camera in the house while they were away !
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02-26-2006, 09:01 PM | #14 | |||
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HB162 trumps Education
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Look at how many can't control their GFBLs on Winnipesaukee doing stunts today. They learn all the wrong moves early—and they're the ones educated earliest through NASBLA. ('Just two more years left to mop-up the oldest boaters). For example, is this activity consistent with "Maintaining a Proper Watch"? |
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02-26-2006, 09:43 PM | #15 | ||
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As far as maintaining proper watch, when a pilot training in an airplane wants to practice manuevers, how do you suppose the pilot "maintains a proper watch"? Why yes, by performing clearing turns, one 360 or two 180s in the shape of an S. True agenda rears it's ugly head again Senators, they can't stand those PWCs......... |
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02-27-2006, 09:10 AM | #16 | |
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Yet another unfounded blanket statement! If you recall, Island Lover recently posted about along time Islander that had NO IDEA a Boater Safety Certificate was required! Then if you do a further search, you will find the posts about the COLLISION between a small SeaRay and a STATIONARY pontoon boat... guess who was driving??? An OLDER guy, I think in the article they listed his age at 70! No collisions between Hi-Performance boaters and anyone else last year.... In any case, I think there is a bill in the House now that will tighten up the Boater Safety Certificate requirement. It is supposed to eliminate the internet testing option and require a proctored exam. Its also supposed to tighten up the requirements for rental boats by requiring a BSC for anyone who is renting a boat. Not too sure how the heavy rental business pro HB-162 Marinas like Fay's & Thurstons are going to like that. There are a few other bills in progress as well, one that would require life jackets on children (Under 12 I think?) and the previously discussed noise bill. I think there is also a bill to increase funding to the Marine Patrol. But like all money bills I am sure it will be subject to a pretty heated debate. You might want to inform your kite surfer friends to do a bit more research on available PFDs. Check these guys out, they make all of the PFD's used by most boat racers. They aren't cheap, about $500 or so, but they won't blow off in an accident either. Had the guys on the SOTW Poker Run been wearing one of these the outcome of the accident might have been different. http://www.lifelinejackets.com/ Woodsy
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02-28-2006, 08:14 AM | #17 | |||||
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"We'll Do It for the [Big] Children..."
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But my point here—clearly missed—is we're seeing a generation of "thrill-boaters" who trained on Jet-Skis! http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...60&postcount=4 http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=57709 http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=27673 Quote:
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Don't "flips"—with injuries—count? Quote:
(...to include big children... ) Oh, and finally...http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=29835 Quote:
You're invited to a cliff dive. You elect: 1) A Class III PFD from K-Mart. 2) A $500 boat racer vest. 3) A $200 kite-boarder vest. 4) A $500 boat racer vest with helmet. 5) None of the above. |
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02-28-2006, 09:27 AM | #18 | |
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02-28-2006, 10:23 AM | #19 |
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For their own safety , maybe they should be required to where one.
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03-04-2006, 10:13 AM | #20 | |
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PFDs are safe ONLY at HB162 Speed.
OK, Woodsy, Cal, NightWing, ITD, upthesaukee, KonaChick, GWC, RegalStan2450, codeman671, gtxrider, and SIKSUKR. Does Airwaves' reply indicate a blanket confusion regarding PFDs and speed?
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At the bottom of this post, you can view a video showing a different "Unintended Consequence", sort-of-related to this thread. Quiz: You're invited to a cliff dive. You elect: 1) A Class III PFD from K-Mart. 2) A $500 boat racer vest. 3) A $200 kite-boarder vest. 4) A $500 boat racer vest with helmet. 5) None of the above. Please make a quiz-based comment and check out the video of this "rescue": http://www.m90.org/index.php?id=11568 |
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03-04-2006, 01:33 PM | #21 | |||
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Thus here is the rest of my statement. HB 162 will do nothing to help with this IMO. A skier going 40 mph still faces plenty of danger crossing a wake. Quote:
No I haven't as a matter of fact. Again you make my point and that point is I hope never to see one If this law passes maybe I will get to see one since they will probably be a more frequent event.. Quote:
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03-06-2006, 10:02 AM | #22 |
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What the heck are you calling me out for on this thread?I made one post that took no position at all.I think your veiws and opinions speak for themselves.
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03-06-2006, 05:16 PM | #23 |
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Great video , seen it before , but a shortened version.
The Coast Guard captain is just as wrong as the little boat. #1 rule of boating safety "do whatever's necessary to avoid a collision". The little boat obviously wasn't paying attention so the Coasties should have slowed or changed course a bit.
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03-06-2006, 05:57 PM | #24 | |
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I don't understand the premise of the Quiz, cliff divers don't wear life vests. Furthermore if I accept your contention, which I don't, then I would have to believe the vests are unsafe at 45mph as well as 46 and so on. Now to the video, didn't the boat that got hit have the right of way? Now granted the Coast Guard was on a rescue mission but I didn't hear any sirens or see any lights. Also from the narration the captain of the CG boat did see the other boat but ran him over anyway. These are the same guys who we take every word and action to be Gospel. Finally each boat appeared to be travelling much less than 45 mph and they still hit, guess a speed limit would have helped there huh? |
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03-06-2006, 06:31 PM | #25 | |
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Do not remember the last time, or first, that I saw a cliff diver wearing a pfd. The Coasties failed to avoid an obvious collision in the making, by simply backing off the throttles to allow the smaller boat, the one in their danger zone, to safely pass. Then again, the person driving the small boat should have been more observant and noticed the obvious collision in the making, by simply backing off the throttles to allow the Coasties to safely pass. How is this unintended consequence a good thing? |
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03-06-2006, 06:45 PM | #26 | |||
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You were a kid once? Sometimes I wonder if you still make yourself dizzy before you post. Ok, I'm just joking, I really don't think that.. Quote:
Once again, I don't buy your premise and I really think you're offbase here but I don't see any way to prove or disprove this. I think the person in your example ("a generation) was lacking judgement and knowledge that what he was doing was dangerous. I don't care how much you legislate, you won't be able to prevent people like this from doing stupid things if they are determined to do it. |
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03-06-2006, 10:59 PM | #27 | |
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As to cliff diving, I haven't found a good place on the lake. |
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03-09-2006, 07:40 AM | #28 | ||||||
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Don't wear a vest...AND go over 45/25?
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Of the four double-fatalities on lakes last summer, two had their PFDs stripped off, and two weren't wearing theirs when struck from behind by a speeding Baja. A near-double occurred with a boating safety instructor at the helm—at 70-MPH. Quote:
In the light that all the victim's apparel was torn off also, I have no trouble understanding the hydraulic forces at work at the speeds of the newer boats—and newer Jet-Skis. I've done lots of stupid speed-stuff in my life, but I wouldn't try to jump off a boat moving at 45—or 75—MPH. (Now that I've suggested it, look for it on Winnipesaukee: It'll probably happen!) Quote:
Until I saw a four-passenger Jet-Ski doing doughnuts last summer, I hadn't given this too much thought. All 4 passengers seemed to be secure during this stunt, but it was a wakeless and calm day. Still, such stunts seem to have "graduated" from Jet-Skis—to 4-passenger Jet-Skis—to 4½-ton boats. BTW: How will PWC incidents "get much worse" at sane speeds? Quote:
I've cliff-dived—Puerto de Soller, Ibiza—back when I was young, indestructible, and stupid. 'Maybe post a photo later, when I can copy it. I'll post some of the sensory effects then. Aside from the less-familiar kite-boarding, there's no closer analogy to being ejected from a boat at high speed. Wearing a PFD while cliff-diving would've knocked you out—if it wasn't ripped off by the impact—like SOTW. As to "stripped vests"—I don't see a Coast Guard category for that. Except for those two incidents, I haven't noticed previous ones being reported. What's the Coast Guard to record in this case anyway? If witnesses state that vests were worn—but torn off—the officer would still have to state that they were being worn, wouldn't he? Vests worn aboard=vests worn at terminal speed/crash. With Jet-Ski accidents becoming reduced nationwide, the stats should be decreasing: So far, the trend is downwards, but is increasing in other, nearby, locales. Speed (helped along with alcohol) increases the severity of a crash, and is a subject getting revisited from New Hampshire to California. Quote:
The smaller boat was alerted by the CG, who announced the warning over a loudspeaker. (What? No whistle?) Nonetheless, the smaller boat never slowed, perhaps perceiving the broadcast was being made by the large boat to their right. Had they been 45+MPH-capable, the impact would have been even more severe. (You can see that the victim's 21-footer was torn in half as it was). And yes, I think they were the victims. I suspect the captain did angle his CG boat to minimize the impact, but perceived the real danger too late. What's remarkable is that this video wasn't "deep-sixed". The CG also had a recent case where their officers were ejected from their own CG boat while near a docked Miami cruise ship. Their own boat circled around them for 20 minutes—repeatedly colliding with other boats, and endangered themselves in the water. Education works? In the Miami case, they at least were wearing PFDs. Quote:
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03-09-2006, 08:07 AM | #29 |
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Looks to me like the Coastie at the helm wasn't paying attention. The Coastie was the give way boat. I didn't hear any sirens or horns in the video indicating they were speeding to an emergency.
Woodsy
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03-09-2006, 08:23 AM | #30 | |
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Sometimes, when I dive into the water off my dock, my bathing suit falls off. Does this mean I get a ticket for speeding should the speed limit pass? |
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03-10-2006, 05:45 AM | #31 | |
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Same for diving off your dock. |
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