What An Idiot!

Greene's Basin Girl · 08-27-2013, 11:13 AM

This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.

BroadHopper · 08-27-2013, 11:25 AM

Everyone choose to boat with the idiots on weekend. Don't you know the weekends is like a combat zone? When idiots have the right of way!

Thanks God Weekends are only two days long. I have five days to enjoy the lake!

codeman671 · 08-27-2013, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Everyone choose to boat with the idiots on weekend. Don't you know the weekends is like a combat zone? Where idiots have the right of way?

Thanks God Weekends are only two days long. I have five days to enjoy the lake!

Not everyone has the luxury to be able to boat midweek....

Webbsatwinni · 08-27-2013, 08:43 PM

GBG, were they speeding? It seems to me that most of these people I see are well within the limit.

lakershaker · 08-30-2013, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

GBG, were they speeding? It seems to me that most of these people I see are well within the limit.

I think that she was more concerned about the 9' distance. At that distance, even 20mph is scary...

ApS · 09-10-2013, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

GBG, were they speeding? It seems to me that most of these people I see are well within the limit.

This past Labor Day Weekend started with a dim and very dark cloud-covered Saturday. That didn't stop a dozen Donzis from turning their exhaust diverters to "full-noise"—racing through peaceable boater traffic—and "setting the pace" for the rest of the Labor Day Weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1am31TT4hDI

Webbsatwinni · 09-10-2013, 06:28 AM

APS, I watched the video (Thanks for posting), I don't see any boater traffic being raced through. And those boats do not look to be going fast at all let alone racing.

Do you have a zoom lens? Closer detail on the pics and vids would be great.

Woodsy · 09-10-2013, 07:12 AM

I didn't see any racing either..... I see a few boats (probably friends) having a little fun. Its just more propaganda from APS!

Shocker!

Woodsy

fatlazyless · 09-10-2013, 07:46 AM

...didn't someone suggest a twelve mile long, motorboat-no speed limit zone, every Sunday from nine to noon, out on the broads ..... that would be a very welcome addition to the Big Lake ..... hut-hut-hut .... yes it would ..... thank you very much!

BroadHopper · 09-10-2013, 09:31 AM

With Woodsy and Websatwinni. The boats does not have the spray in the back for speed. They appear to be 150' away from each other. so it is a friendly get together and let's go boating!

fpartri497 · 08-30-2013, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Not everyone has the luxury to be able to boat midweek....

I have the luxury of boating five days a week all season

bigdog · 08-30-2013, 09:00 AM

Being Labor Day Weekend, Personally, I'm going to stay off the lake, for my own sanity and peace of mind, and potentially save myself a lot of aggravation.

I've run into that 9' distance with other idiot boaters, all too often on weekends.

Plan on boating Tues. after the holiday crowd has left.

LakeSnake · 08-30-2013, 11:27 AM

Comming to a place near you - Weekend at Bernie's!
Just like every other holiday weekend on the lake. Sit back have a drink and enjoy the show!

BroadHopper · 08-30-2013, 12:27 PM

I dread Memorial Day weekend because it is the start of the tourist season.
I love Labor Day weekend because it is the end of the tourist season.

To each his/her own.

laserp · 09-08-2013, 07:22 PM

I had an ***hole in a 30 ft Formula almost run his boat over mine at night on a weekend. I was doing about 23mph. Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30. My guess is he was passing me on the right and wasn't looking. I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left. Missed me by 20ft... AT NIGHT!!
Then he starts yelling at me! Didn't you see me? Said he would report me! I said go ahead. I'd love to hear him explain to the cops that a guy in front of him slowed down and he almost hit him. He was clearly within 150ft of me. At night. Was speeding. Was within 150 (on my inside) of moored boats.
The lake is full of morons on the weekend, with boats that they buy to compensate for their manhood. Can't handle them.

NHBUOY · 09-09-2013, 08:50 AM

nice 1st post LP.

welcome.

laserp · 09-09-2013, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHBUOY

nice 1st post LP.

welcome.

Hey thanks NHBUOY - new to this forum, but been at it on bike forums.. Ya, that was the most spooky scene I've had on the water and have been boating for my entire life. Guy must have been dong 40 plus to get to me that fast without me knowing.

I am now real paranoid at night. YOu have to think that there is some idiot trying to hit you the whole time you're out there. Assume you have no lights on and every boat has a drunk in it.
Laser

Pineedles · 09-09-2013, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserp

Hey thanks NHBUOY - new to this forum, but been at it on bike forums.. Ya, that was the most spooky scene I've had on the water and have been boating for my entire life. Guy must have been dong 40 plus to get to me that fast without me knowing.

I am now real paranoid at night. YOu have to think that there is some idiot trying to hit you the whole time you're out there. Assume you have no lights on and every boat has a drunk in it.
Laser

Don't assume every boater is drunk. Just be cautious and operate within the law and good judgment. Welcome aboard.

laserp · 09-09-2013, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pineedles

Don't assume every boater is drunk. Just be cautious and operate within the law and good judgment. Welcome aboard.

What I was doing. My point is be on alert and be ready for the other guy not to be within the law and making good judgment.

Woodsy · 09-10-2013, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserp

I had an ***hole in a 30 ft Formula almost run his boat over mine at night on a weekend. I was doing about 23mph. Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30. My guess is he was passing me on the right and wasn't looking. I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left. Missed me by 20ft... AT NIGHT!!
Then he starts yelling at me! Didn't you see me? Said he would report me! I said go ahead. I'd love to hear him explain to the cops that a guy in front of him slowed down and he almost hit him. He was clearly within 150ft of me. At night. Was speeding. Was within 150 (on my inside) of moored boats.
The lake is full of morons on the weekend, with boats that they buy to compensate for their manhood. Can't handle them.

Laser...

I have a couple of problems with your story.... and maybe I am missing something here. But.....

You said you were doing 23 MPH and came off plane and pulled over to the right. No offense but you are in the WAY wrong right here! You should have looked behind you before changing speed or course. Had looked behind you before changing course and direction you SHOULD have noticed the guy in the Formula (you didn't). You were CLEARLY being overtaken by the guy in the Formula. This makes you the STAND ON BOAT and by LAW you are REQUIRED to maintain COURSE and SPEED until after you have been overtaken! You lowered your speed and turned INTO the path of Formula who was overtaking you. (He was passing on your right according to your story) Then you cut even SHARPER RIGHT compounding your mistake! (Both boats were required to turn AWAY from each other) had the Formula followed the rules and turned right (away from you) most likely we would be reading about your injuries in the paper!

Your slowdown and course change was in the wrong. Had their been a collision you would have been at fault for failure to maintain a proper lookout as well as failure to follow basic navigation. At no point in your story did you have the right of way!

http://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire/...3101_700056387

PS: The nighttime speed limit is 30MPH.... not 25! The Formula wasn't speeding or breaking any rules at all!

So who is the moron now? Maybe before you call someone an ***HOLE & MORON and question their manhood, you might want to make sure you are in the right...... maybe you need a Safe Boater Refresher course?

Woodsy

Pricestavern · 09-10-2013, 11:09 AM

The rule states that the give-way vessel must keep well away from the boat it is overtaking that is stopping, slowing down, or changing course. In the event that the give-way vessel does not take appropriate action (ie Capt. Bonehead) the stand-on vessel should try to take action to avoid collision (ie common sense - get out of the way).

In this case the stand-on vessel did look behind, did not see the oncoming boat due to nightfall and overtaking vessel's speed and therefore is absolutely NOT at fault. The give-way vessel clearly was too close, traveling too fast, and did not give adequate clearence.

give-way vessel
The vessel that is required to take early and substantial action to keep well away from other vessels by stopping, slowing down or changing course
stand-on vessel.
The vessel that must maintain its course and speed unless it becomes apparent that the give-way boat is not taking appropriate action; if you must take action, do not turn toward the give-way boat or cross in front of it.

Had the stand-on vessel been able to see the overtaking boat, then they should maintain course (if possible). However, the onus is on the overtaking give-way vessel to mitigate such factors by taking "early and substantial action to keep well away."

Woodsy · 09-10-2013, 11:37 AM

Prices....

You are right and wrong.... it is the job of the give way vessel to alter course and speed to avoid collision. The Formula did exactly that. See what I wrote below.

The Formula did what he was supposed to do. He made a command decision to pass Laser on the right.(No legal issue there although judging from the story Laser tells, passing on the left would have been the wiser choice) The Formula committed and started to pass Laser on the right with an overtake speed of approximately 7 MPH. LASER DIDNT SEE THE FORMULA, SLOWED DOWN AND TURNED INTO THE PATH OF THE FORMULA. This error in judgement is on Laser, not the Formula. Laser is the STAND BOAT. Laser then COMPOUNDED the error by turning even more sharply into the path of the Formula. Before Laser began to slow and turn LASER should have cleared his baffles and made sure there was nobody there. The Formula obviously gave Laser some clearance when he went to pass him on the right, (150' can be debated as we weren't there but it wasn't that far off) otherwise Lasers sudden slowdown and course change WOULD have resulted in a collision. No doubt about it. At some point the Formula took evasive action by turning left and crossed Lasers wake soon after after Laser sharpened his turn to the right. Both boats upon seeing a possible collision situation are REQUIRED to TURN AWAY from each other. Laser is required to turn left to avoid a collision, the Formula was required to turn right. Had the Formula turned right And Laser turned right (which he did) there would have been a collision.

Had Laser kept and maintained proper lookout he would have known there was a boat BEHIND HIM thus making Laser the STAND ON BOAT.

Draw the diagram out on paper.... like I did. Then add speeds into the equation... 23MPH = 33.73 FPS or approximately 4.4 seconds to cover 150' and 30MPH = 44FPS or approximately 3.4 seconds to cover 150'

Had this been a cut an dry crossing situation, Laser would not have the right of way as he was crossing the Formula's bow from Left to Right.

Woodsy

jrc · 09-10-2013, 03:43 PM

Perhaps NH law could add some color:

270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water. –
...
IV. When vessels are running in the same direction and the vessel which is astern desires to pass the other, it shall do so only when sufficient distance between the vessels is available to avoid danger of collision, and at such a speed that its wake will not endanger the boat being passed or its occupants. No person operating a vessel shall abruptly change its course without first determining that it can safely be done without crossing immediately ahead of another vessel.
...

ITD · 09-10-2013, 04:07 PM

If you are passing some one it is your responsibility to pass at a distance sufficient to avoid a collision should that boat change course, period. If you are passing so close that you can't adjust for a course change or risk a collision because of a course change , then you are too close and not a very good boater in my opinion.

tis · 09-10-2013, 04:08 PM

I swear if somebody has enough patience, they could find a law to negate every other law. Not just in boating, but in everything.

Woodsy · 09-10-2013, 07:32 PM

ITD,

So your driving down the 3 lane highway, overtaking a slower car in the middle lane. You change lanes and commit yourself to passing him. All of a sudden he abruptly slows and swerves into your lane..... You have already committed to passing him, your in your lane so you brake abruptly and swerve the opposite way into the lane he just left to avoid the collision. Had their been a collision who would be at fault?? Is it your fault? Or the slower guys fault? If I am to follow your logic its your fault as you didn't prepare for or leave enough room for the slower driver's erratic driving.

You have reasonable expectation that the other car saw you overtaking him and there was no reason you should expect anything other than he continues on his current path and speed as you go around him. The law says he is supposed to use directional to signal a lane change and look before changing lanes to make sure the lane is clear, if the lane isn't clear he is not supposed to enter it. This scenario happens every day on highways of NH.

Same basic rules apply in this situation.

Its pretty much the same situation here just with bigger distances. Instead of 10' lanes we have the 150' safe passage rule. The onus is on the Formula for avoiding the collision and he did just that. There was no collision. However this doesn't absolve Laser of potentially causing the collision by failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to obey navigation rules. Had Laser kept a proper lookout and checked before he changed course and speed he would have seen the bow lights of the Formula, been able to determine the Formulas course and this whole situation would have been avoided. The Formula as the GIVE WAY boat had the reasonable expectation that Laser as the STAND ON boat was aware of his position and would proceed accordingly. The STAND ON boat has just as much responsibility as the GIVE WAY boat when it comes to accidents. Both skippers are tasked with avoiding collision.

Woodsy

BroadHopper · 09-10-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD,

The STAND ON boat has just as much responsibility as the GIVE WAY boat when it comes to accidents. Both skippers are tasked with avoiding collision.

Woodsy

I agree 100%. With all the loonies on the lake, whether I am stand on or give away, I expect the other boat to ignore rules and common sense so I steer away from the other boat.

Better to be safe than sorry

ITD · 09-10-2013, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD,

So your driving down the 3 lane highway, overtaking a slower car in the middle lane. You change lanes and commit yourself to passing him. All of a sudden he abruptly slows and swerves into your lane..... You have already committed to passing him, your in your lane so you brake abruptly and swerve the opposite way into the lane he just left to avoid the collision. Had their been a collision who would be at fault?? Is it your fault? Or the slower guys fault? If I am to follow your logic its your fault as you didn't prepare for or leave enough room for the slower driver's erratic driving.

You have reasonable expectation that the other car saw you overtaking him and there was no reason you should expect anything other than he continues on his current path and speed as you go around him. The law says he is supposed to use directional to signal a lane change and look before changing lanes to make sure the lane is clear, if the lane isn't clear he is not supposed to enter it. This scenario happens every day on highways of NH.

Same basic rules apply in this situation.

Its pretty much the same situation here just with bigger distances. Instead of 10' lanes we have the 150' safe passage rule. The onus is on the Formula for avoiding the collision and he did just that. There was no collision. However this doesn't absolve Laser of potentially causing the collision by failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to obey navigation rules. Had Laser kept a proper lookout and checked before he changed course and speed he would have seen the bow lights of the Formula, been able to determine the Formulas course and this whole situation would have been avoided. The Formula as the GIVE WAY boat had the reasonable expectation that Laser as the STAND ON boat was aware of his position and would proceed accordingly. The STAND ON boat has just as much responsibility as the GIVE WAY boat when it comes to accidents. Both skippers are tasked with avoiding collision.

Woodsy

Sorry Woodsy, I don't think we're going to agree here, the overtaken vessel has the right of way, driving on a road is a completely different animal and not applicable here. If you pass another boat at the minimum 150 feet you are begging to be t-boned and you will have no time to explain your parsing of the stand on / give way nuances to the other boat.

I also don't agree with your statement that by the "being passed" boat turning right he becomes the Stand on boat during a pass, there could be any number of reasons why a boat might have to make a turn, if the "being passed" boat needs to maneuver, then the give way boat needs to give way, not try to proclaim he was in the right because the "being passed" boat needed to turn and was crossing him port to starboard. In a lawsuit that defense would most certainly fail.

It's a big lake out there, pass far enough away so that if the boat being passed changes course you have the time and space to avoid a collision. If you pass closer than that then you are being foolish. If you are in a situation where you can only pass at 150ft then you should wait until you have more room. I also think that as the give way vessel, you need to keep yourself in the position to give way, there are many things that can cause a stand on boat to deviate its course, a smart captain will be ready for that in a position to act.

That being said, it's also wise to scan 360 degrees, have your head on a swivel when piloting a boat. Unlike driving a car, where you can anticipate most traffic conflicts due to roads and lanes, in a boat you can be hit from any angle at any time. I specifically look for boats behind me when I turn because I am truly amazed at how many spatial awareness deficient boaters there are out there.

Woodsy · 09-10-2013, 09:57 PM

ITD...

We can agree to disagree....

I will agree that it is a big lake and an even bigger ocean. Yet somehow collisions still happen. That's why we have rules. By your reasoning all collisions that occur in a passing situation are the fault of the Give Way.

If that's the case, why assign ANY responsibilities at all to the vessel being passed? Why call that vessel the STAND ON Vessel? Why assign the responsibility of maintaining course and speed while being overtaken by law? Just because? Maybe they should change the rules to pass at your own risk and any and all responsibility / liability is on the Give Way vessel!

At some point during the attempt to pass, the Give Way and Stand ON responsibilities become clearly defined. It is an absolute. I don't profess to know when that occurs. In this case Laser by his own admission did not see the Formula (Failure to keep a proper lookout) so it might be a little murky depending on what the Formula skipper had to say. In a trial, or Grand Jury hearing, the jury would hear the evidence as presented by NHMP, and make the call at what point the Formula was overtaking Laser. Its at that point the Stand On and Give Way responsibilities would be defined.

Woodsy

Pricestavern · 09-11-2013, 01:48 AM

The incident happened at night. The vessel being overtaken came off of plane and pulled to the right. If you are going so fast and so close (at night, let's remember) that you, as the overtaking GIVEWAY, vessel do not have enough time to maneuver then by definition you have not acted appropriately.

Of all passing situations, this is the most clear cut rule that the vessel overtaking must maneuver to avoid the possibility of collision. The Stand On vessel never becomes the give way vessel.

See: NavrulesHandbook.com/Rule13.html
See: http://maritimeknowhow.com/wp-conten...Overtaking.pdf

A change in course by the overtaken vessel shall not make the overtaken vessel a crossing vessel.

Plain and simple. Period.

Woodsy · 09-11-2013, 07:02 AM

Prices & ITD...

I am with you guys in that I give as much room as possible before I go around another boat. I keep my head on a swivel in all directions. Its the prudent thing to do.

Prices,

Whether the incident happened at night of during the day it doesn't matter. I am operating under the assumption that neither boat was speeding. Laser said he was doing 23 & the Formula was at 30. a difference at the beginning of 7 MPH. The Formula has the right to pass Laser night or day and he has reasonable expectation that Laser would obey the rules of the water as the STAND ON vessel and maintain course and speed. I don't think Laser slowing down is the issue here. The Formula saw Laser and knew he was there and had already adjusted his course to go around him. Lasers abrupt turn into the path of the passing boat is the issue. And by Laser's own admission he didn't see the Formula..... Had Laser seen the Formula passing him on the right I seriously doubt Laser STILL would have changed course abruptly to the right! This is all on Laser for FAILURE TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT!

The Formula OBVIOUSLY left enough room to maneuver because there was no accident. He was able to slow down and cross Laser's wake to the left despite Laser turning right into his path even sharper. My point was and still is the Laser was in the wrong by not seeing the Formula and acting accordingly. If Laser is somehow absolved of acting accordingly as the STAND ON vessel (MAINTAIN COURSE AND SPEED) then ALL passing accidents are caused by the GIVE WAY vessel and why assign any rules at all to the STAND ON vessel?

BOTH VESSELS MUST MANUEVER PROPERLY TO AVOID A COLLISION! NOT JUST THE GIVE WAY!

Woodsy

Orion · 09-11-2013, 07:45 AM

I have to agree with Woodsy on this one. I thought exactly the same thing when I first read Laser's account. Bottom line is, regardless of the rules and laws, one must keep a good lookout scan at all times, especially at night, and not make any course changes without first clearing the direction of turn.

ApS · 09-13-2013, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricestavern

The incident happened at night. The vessel being overtaken came off of plane and pulled to the right. If you are going so fast and so close (at night, let's remember) that you, as the overtaking GIVEWAY, vessel do not have enough time to maneuver then by definition you have not acted appropriately.

Of all passing situations, this is the most clear cut rule that the vessel overtaking must maneuver to avoid the possibility of collision. The Stand On vessel never becomes the give way vessel.

See: NavrulesHandbook.com/Rule13.html
See: http://maritimeknowhow.com/wp-conten...Overtaking.pdf

A change in course by the overtaken vessel shall not make the overtaken vessel a crossing vessel.

Plain and simple. Period.

I followed this discussion with interest—mentally placing a sailboat as the overtaken vessel.

Operating at the whim of invisible "power", a sailboat can be the victim of unforeseen "acts of God".

To a speedboat—especially at night—required gibes and tacks can take on the appearance of reckless operation.

Over the centuries, the writers of maritime law have placed the vast weight of responsibility on the overtaking boat—which is as it should be.

IMO.

Woodsy · 09-13-2013, 09:46 AM

APS...

Both vessels are required to maintain a proper lookout. THE END.

This whole discussion is really about MAINTAINING A PROPER LOOKOUT. Had Laser seen the Formula, he would not have turned into the Formula's path! He would have maintained his course (maybe even altered slightly left) and waited for the Formula to pass then turned right to head to his destination. PER THE RULES. Laser didn't see the Formula and turned sharply into the Formulas path....

Woodsy

whalebackpoint'r · 09-10-2013, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green's Basin Girl

This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.

Kinda makes you wonder how people without brains can afford to have a boat like that, but there are plenty of them out there. Suggest grabbing your cell phone or camera, snap a picture including a clear shot of the bow number and send it to Marine Patrol with date and time noted.

Chaselady · 09-13-2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green's Basin Girl

This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.

Okay, after reading Green's Basin Girl's original post, it is becoming much more apparent to me who is at fault....

Woodsy · 09-13-2013, 05:41 PM

TITLE XXII
NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY

CHAPTER 270-D
BOATING AND WATER SAFETY ON NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC WATERS

Section 270-D:2

270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water. –
I. Vessels shall be operated at headway speed only, while passing under all bridges.
II. (a) It shall be the duty of each vessel to keep to the right when vessels are approaching each other head on.
(b) When the courses of vessels are so far to the starboard of each other as not to be considered as approaching head on, they shall keep to the left.
III. When vessels are crossing courses or approaching each other in an oblique direction which may involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on its starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other, allowing the latter vessel to keep its course and speed.
IV. When vessels are running in the same direction and the vessel which is astern desires to pass the other, it shall do so only when sufficient distance between the vessels is available to avoid danger of collision, and at such a speed that its wake will not endanger the boat being passed or its occupants. No person operating a vessel shall abruptly change its course without first determining that it can safely be done without crossing immediately ahead of another vessel.

I think the law here was pretty clear....

Woodsy

hazelnut · 09-16-2013, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green's Basin Girl

This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.

GBG, your husband failed to keep a proper lookout if he did not see the Stingray.

08-27-2013, 11:13 AM	#1
Greene's Basin Girl Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Moultonborough, NH Posts: 1,515 Thanks: 394 Thanked 527 Times in 269 Posts	What An Idiot! This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.

08-27-2013, 11:25 AM	#2
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,118 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	Can't understand why? Everyone choose to boat with the idiots on weekend. Don't you know the weekends is like a combat zone? When idiots have the right of way! Thanks God Weekends are only two days long. I have five days to enjoy the lake! __________________ Someday may never be an actual day. Last edited by BroadHopper; 08-28-2013 at 07:30 AM.

09-10-2013, 07:12 AM	#8
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	I didn't see any racing either..... I see a few boats (probably friends) having a little fun. Its just more propaganda from APS! Shocker! Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-10-2013, 07:46 AM	#9
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,527 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	....Sunday's; nine to noon .....be there!!! ...didn't someone suggest a twelve mile long, motorboat-no speed limit zone, every Sunday from nine to noon, out on the broads ..... that would be a very welcome addition to the Big Lake ..... hut-hut-hut .... yes it would ..... thank you very much! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

09-10-2013, 09:31 AM	#10
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,118 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	Have to agree With Woodsy and Websatwinni. The boats does not have the spray in the back for speed. They appear to be 150' away from each other. so it is a friendly get together and let's go boating! __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

08-27-2013, 08:43 PM	#4
Webbsatwinni Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Lebanon Ct and Rattlesnake Island Since 2007 Posts: 610 Thanks: 180 Thanked 137 Times in 72 Posts	GBG, were they speeding? It seems to me that most of these people I see are well within the limit.

09-10-2013, 06:28 AM	#7
Webbsatwinni Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Lebanon Ct and Rattlesnake Island Since 2007 Posts: 610 Thanks: 180 Thanked 137 Times in 72 Posts	APS, I watched the video (Thanks for posting), I don't see any boater traffic being raced through. And those boats do not look to be going fast at all let alone racing. Do you have a zoom lens? Closer detail on the pics and vids would be great.

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LIforrelaxin (09-13-2013)

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08-30-2013, 09:00 AM	#12
bigdog Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Central MA-Gilford Posts: 1,411 Thanks: 308 Thanked 117 Times in 94 Posts	Being Labor Day Weekend, Personally, I'm going to stay off the lake, for my own sanity and peace of mind, and potentially save myself a lot of aggravation. I've run into that 9' distance with other idiot boaters, all too often on weekends. Plan on boating Tues. after the holiday crowd has left.

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BroadHopper (08-30-2013)

08-30-2013, 11:27 AM	#13
LakeSnake Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Pine (Alton) Mountain Posts: 138 Thanks: 39 Thanked 33 Times in 20 Posts	Comming to a place near you - Weekend at Bernie's! Just like every other holiday weekend on the lake. Sit back have a drink and enjoy the show! __________________ I'm in NH 24/7 now.

08-30-2013, 12:27 PM	#14
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,118 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	I dread Memorial Day weekend because it is the start of the tourist season. I love Labor Day weekend because it is the end of the tourist season. To each his/her own. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

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Misha888 (05-28-2014)

09-08-2013, 07:22 PM	#15
laserp Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 9 Thanks: 8 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	I had an ***hole in a 30 ft Formula almost run his boat over mine at night on a weekend. I was doing about 23mph. Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30. My guess is he was passing me on the right and wasn't looking. I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left. Missed me by 20ft... AT NIGHT!! Then he starts yelling at me! Didn't you see me? Said he would report me! I said go ahead. I'd love to hear him explain to the cops that a guy in front of him slowed down and he almost hit him. He was clearly within 150ft of me. At night. Was speeding. Was within 150 (on my inside) of moored boats. The lake is full of morons on the weekend, with boats that they buy to compensate for their manhood. Can't handle them.

09-09-2013, 08:50 AM	#16
NHBUOY Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Loon Mtn. winters...Meredith Neck summers Posts: 398 Thanks: 288 Thanked 94 Times in 60 Posts	nice 1st post LP. welcome.

09-10-2013, 11:09 AM	#21
Pricestavern Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Valencia, Spain (formerly Rattlesnake Isle) Posts: 388 Thanks: 125 Thanked 142 Times in 82 Posts	Incorrect The rule states that the give-way vessel must keep well away from the boat it is overtaking that is stopping, slowing down, or changing course. In the event that the give-way vessel does not take appropriate action (ie Capt. Bonehead) the stand-on vessel should try to take action to avoid collision (ie common sense - get out of the way). In this case the stand-on vessel did look behind, did not see the oncoming boat due to nightfall and overtaking vessel's speed and therefore is absolutely NOT at fault. The give-way vessel clearly was too close, traveling too fast, and did not give adequate clearence. give-way vessel The vessel that is required to take early and substantial action to keep well away from other vessels by stopping, slowing down or changing course stand-on vessel. The vessel that must maintain its course and speed unless it becomes apparent that the give-way boat is not taking appropriate action; if you must take action, do not turn toward the give-way boat or cross in front of it. Had the stand-on vessel been able to see the overtaking boat, then they should maintain course (if possible). However, the onus is on the overtaking give-way vessel to mitigate such factors by taking "early and substantial action to keep well away."

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ApS (09-10-2013)

09-10-2013, 11:37 AM	#22
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	Prices.... You are right and wrong.... it is the job of the give way vessel to alter course and speed to avoid collision. The Formula did exactly that. See what I wrote below. The Formula did what he was supposed to do. He made a command decision to pass Laser on the right.(No legal issue there although judging from the story Laser tells, passing on the left would have been the wiser choice) The Formula committed and started to pass Laser on the right with an overtake speed of approximately 7 MPH. LASER DIDNT SEE THE FORMULA, SLOWED DOWN AND TURNED INTO THE PATH OF THE FORMULA. This error in judgement is on Laser, not the Formula. Laser is the STAND BOAT. Laser then COMPOUNDED the error by turning even more sharply into the path of the Formula. Before Laser began to slow and turn LASER should have cleared his baffles and made sure there was nobody there. The Formula obviously gave Laser some clearance when he went to pass him on the right, (150' can be debated as we weren't there but it wasn't that far off) otherwise Lasers sudden slowdown and course change WOULD have resulted in a collision. No doubt about it. At some point the Formula took evasive action by turning left and crossed Lasers wake soon after after Laser sharpened his turn to the right. Both boats upon seeing a possible collision situation are REQUIRED to TURN AWAY from each other. Laser is required to turn left to avoid a collision, the Formula was required to turn right. Had the Formula turned right And Laser turned right (which he did) there would have been a collision. Had Laser kept and maintained proper lookout he would have known there was a boat BEHIND HIM thus making Laser the STAND ON BOAT. Draw the diagram out on paper.... like I did. Then add speeds into the equation... 23MPH = 33.73 FPS or approximately 4.4 seconds to cover 150' and 30MPH = 44FPS or approximately 3.4 seconds to cover 150' Had this been a cut an dry crossing situation, Laser would not have the right of way as he was crossing the Formula's bow from Left to Right. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-10-2013, 03:43 PM	#23
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Perhaps NH law could add some color: 270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water. – ... IV. When vessels are running in the same direction and the vessel which is astern desires to pass the other, it shall do so only when sufficient distance between the vessels is available to avoid danger of collision, and at such a speed that its wake will not endanger the boat being passed or its occupants. No person operating a vessel shall abruptly change its course without first determining that it can safely be done without crossing immediately ahead of another vessel. ...

09-10-2013, 04:07 PM	#24
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	If you are passing some one it is your responsibility to pass at a distance sufficient to avoid a collision should that boat change course, period. If you are passing so close that you can't adjust for a course change or risk a collision because of a course change , then you are too close and not a very good boater in my opinion.

09-10-2013, 04:08 PM	#25
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,410 Thanks: 719 Thanked 1,381 Times in 957 Posts	I swear if somebody has enough patience, they could find a law to negate every other law. Not just in boating, but in everything.

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Woodsy (09-10-2013)

09-10-2013, 07:32 PM	#26
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	ITD, So your driving down the 3 lane highway, overtaking a slower car in the middle lane. You change lanes and commit yourself to passing him. All of a sudden he abruptly slows and swerves into your lane..... You have already committed to passing him, your in your lane so you brake abruptly and swerve the opposite way into the lane he just left to avoid the collision. Had their been a collision who would be at fault?? Is it your fault? Or the slower guys fault? If I am to follow your logic its your fault as you didn't prepare for or leave enough room for the slower driver's erratic driving. You have reasonable expectation that the other car saw you overtaking him and there was no reason you should expect anything other than he continues on his current path and speed as you go around him. The law says he is supposed to use directional to signal a lane change and look before changing lanes to make sure the lane is clear, if the lane isn't clear he is not supposed to enter it. This scenario happens every day on highways of NH. Same basic rules apply in this situation. Its pretty much the same situation here just with bigger distances. Instead of 10' lanes we have the 150' safe passage rule. The onus is on the Formula for avoiding the collision and he did just that. There was no collision. However this doesn't absolve Laser of potentially causing the collision by failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to obey navigation rules. Had Laser kept a proper lookout and checked before he changed course and speed he would have seen the bow lights of the Formula, been able to determine the Formulas course and this whole situation would have been avoided. The Formula as the GIVE WAY boat had the reasonable expectation that Laser as the STAND ON boat was aware of his position and would proceed accordingly. The STAND ON boat has just as much responsibility as the GIVE WAY boat when it comes to accidents. Both skippers are tasked with avoiding collision. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-10-2013, 09:57 PM	#29
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	ITD... We can agree to disagree.... I will agree that it is a big lake and an even bigger ocean. Yet somehow collisions still happen. That's why we have rules. By your reasoning all collisions that occur in a passing situation are the fault of the Give Way. If that's the case, why assign ANY responsibilities at all to the vessel being passed? Why call that vessel the STAND ON Vessel? Why assign the responsibility of maintaining course and speed while being overtaken by law? Just because? Maybe they should change the rules to pass at your own risk and any and all responsibility / liability is on the Give Way vessel! At some point during the attempt to pass, the Give Way and Stand ON responsibilities become clearly defined. It is an absolute. I don't profess to know when that occurs. In this case Laser by his own admission did not see the Formula (Failure to keep a proper lookout) so it might be a little murky depending on what the Formula skipper had to say. In a trial, or Grand Jury hearing, the jury would hear the evidence as presented by NHMP, and make the call at what point the Formula was overtaking Laser. Its at that point the Stand On and Give Way responsibilities would be defined. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid. Last edited by Woodsy; 09-10-2013 at 10:30 PM.

09-11-2013, 01:48 AM	#30
Pricestavern Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Valencia, Spain (formerly Rattlesnake Isle) Posts: 388 Thanks: 125 Thanked 142 Times in 82 Posts	Give Way The incident happened at night. The vessel being overtaken came off of plane and pulled to the right. If you are going so fast and so close (at night, let's remember) that you, as the overtaking GIVEWAY, vessel do not have enough time to maneuver then by definition you have not acted appropriately. Of all passing situations, this is the most clear cut rule that the vessel overtaking must maneuver to avoid the possibility of collision. The Stand On vessel never becomes the give way vessel. See: NavrulesHandbook.com/Rule13.html See: http://maritimeknowhow.com/wp-conten...Overtaking.pdf A change in course by the overtaken vessel shall not make the overtaken vessel a crossing vessel. Plain and simple. Period.

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ApS (09-11-2013)

09-11-2013, 07:02 AM	#31
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	Prices & ITD... I am with you guys in that I give as much room as possible before I go around another boat. I keep my head on a swivel in all directions. Its the prudent thing to do. Prices, Whether the incident happened at night of during the day it doesn't matter. I am operating under the assumption that neither boat was speeding. Laser said he was doing 23 & the Formula was at 30. a difference at the beginning of 7 MPH. The Formula has the right to pass Laser night or day and he has reasonable expectation that Laser would obey the rules of the water as the STAND ON vessel and maintain course and speed. I don't think Laser slowing down is the issue here. The Formula saw Laser and knew he was there and had already adjusted his course to go around him. Lasers abrupt turn into the path of the passing boat is the issue. And by Laser's own admission he didn't see the Formula..... Had Laser seen the Formula passing him on the right I seriously doubt Laser STILL would have changed course abruptly to the right! This is all on Laser for FAILURE TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT! The Formula OBVIOUSLY left enough room to maneuver because there was no accident. He was able to slow down and cross Laser's wake to the left despite Laser turning right into his path even sharper. My point was and still is the Laser was in the wrong by not seeing the Formula and acting accordingly. If Laser is somehow absolved of acting accordingly as the STAND ON vessel (MAINTAIN COURSE AND SPEED) then ALL passing accidents are caused by the GIVE WAY vessel and why assign any rules at all to the STAND ON vessel? BOTH VESSELS MUST MANUEVER PROPERLY TO AVOID A COLLISION! NOT JUST THE GIVE WAY! Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-11-2013, 07:45 AM	#32
Orion Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Cow Island Posts: 914 Thanks: 602 Thanked 193 Times in 91 Posts	Woodsy has it right I have to agree with Woodsy on this one. I thought exactly the same thing when I first read Laser's account. Bottom line is, regardless of the rules and laws, one must keep a good lookout scan at all times, especially at night, and not make any course changes without first clearing the direction of turn.

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ITD (09-13-2013)

09-13-2013, 09:46 AM	#34
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	APS... Both vessels are required to maintain a proper lookout. THE END. This whole discussion is really about MAINTAINING A PROPER LOOKOUT. Had Laser seen the Formula, he would not have turned into the Formula's path! He would have maintained his course (maybe even altered slightly left) and waited for the Formula to pass then turned right to head to his destination. PER THE RULES. Laser didn't see the Formula and turned sharply into the Formulas path.... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-13-2013, 05:41 PM	#37
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	TITLE XXII NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY CHAPTER 270-D BOATING AND WATER SAFETY ON NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC WATERS Section 270-D:2 270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water. – I. Vessels shall be operated at headway speed only, while passing under all bridges. II. (a) It shall be the duty of each vessel to keep to the right when vessels are approaching each other head on. (b) When the courses of vessels are so far to the starboard of each other as not to be considered as approaching head on, they shall keep to the left. III. When vessels are crossing courses or approaching each other in an oblique direction which may involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on its starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other, allowing the latter vessel to keep its course and speed. IV. When vessels are running in the same direction and the vessel which is astern desires to pass the other, it shall do so only when sufficient distance between the vessels is available to avoid danger of collision, and at such a speed that its wake will not endanger the boat being passed or its occupants. No person operating a vessel shall abruptly change its course without first determining that it can safely be done without crossing immediately ahead of another vessel. I think the law here was pretty clear.... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.