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Old 07-02-2019, 08:37 AM   #1
clementine
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Default Farm Island

Some of you may know that Farm Island in 19 Mile Bay is on the market. Farm Island is one of the few remaining undeveloped islands on Winnipesaukee.The Abenaki used to fish and hunt there, and there is a historic camp in the center of the island that goes back to when livestock spent the summer grazing there. Camp Belknap currently owns roughly 1/3 of the island and that portion is not on the market. There is a buyer interested in subdividing the 13+ acres into 12 buildable lots while preserving the historic camp. There is a hearing on July 18th at 7:00 at the Tuftonboro Town Hall at which this proposal to subdivide will be discussed. If you are interested in the future of Farm Island, come to the hearing on the 18th to learn more.
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Old 07-02-2019, 11:09 AM   #2
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Default Farm Island

Back in 1965 my grandfather was looking at property on Cow Island. As he was boating over to Cow from 19 mile bay the real estate broker said he could buy the entirety of Farm Island for 5000 dollars. My grandfather said he wasnt interested in pursuing it because at the time it had no electricity. He ended up buying a lot on Cow for 3500 dollars that October. I am not sure if Farm Island was really for sale then but that is the story I was told.
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Old 07-02-2019, 06:39 PM   #3
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Thanks for the little 1965 history story about your grandfather.
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Old 07-02-2019, 07:07 PM   #4
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Anything you buy on Winnipesaukee for storefront, will appreciate in value. Will it beat the market? Who knows. But it will go up in value.


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Old 07-02-2019, 09:34 PM   #5
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I think you meant shore front. Don't you all miss the days of the big dig in Boston when all that stolen money was used to buy million dollar homes with cash?
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Old 07-02-2019, 09:51 PM   #6
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i think you meant shore front. Don't you all miss the days of the big dig in boston when all that stolen money was used to buy million dollar homes with cash?
Huh???????
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:37 AM   #7
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Default Farm Island

Quote:
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Some of you may know that Farm Island in 19 Mile Bay is on the market. Farm Island is one of the few remaining undeveloped islands on Winnipesaukee.The Abenaki used to fish and hunt there, and there is a historic camp in the center of the island that goes back to when livestock spent the summer grazing there. Camp Belknap currently owns roughly 1/3 of the island and that portion is not on the market. There is a buyer interested in subdividing the 13+ acres into 12 buildable lots while preserving the historic camp. There is a hearing on July 18th at 7:00 at the Tuftonboro Town Hall at which this proposal to subdivide will be discussed. If you are interested in the future of Farm Island, come to the hearing on the 18th to learn more.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. Last remaining private undeveloped island on the lake. I heard that a large turn out is expected.
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:38 PM   #8
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Anything you buy on Winnipesaukee with shorefrontage, will appreciate in value. Will it beat the market? Who knows. But it will go up in value.


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Old 07-18-2019, 01:50 PM   #9
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Probably 99.9% of all Winnipesaukee island homes are second homes with local property taxes costing from $3,000-8,000/yr and going up every year.

So's with the new, (2018 tax year) federal income tax deduction limited to $10,000 ..... this new limit totally, totally, totally hits the second home owner very very very hard ..... regardless what anyone says ..... you understand!
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:43 AM   #10
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How did the planning board meeting go regarding this proposed subdivision?
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:58 PM   #11
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Anything you buy on Winnipesaukee for storefront, will appreciate in value. Will it beat the market? Who knows. But it will go up in value.
Maxfield Realty is listing Farm Island for $2,000,000.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:35 PM   #12
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I think you meant shore front. Don't you all miss the days of the big dig in Boston when all that stolen money was used to buy million dollar homes with cash?
Back in those days I sold boats during the Summer. Many Massachusetts trades guys from "The Dig"came in, with cash, to buy their formally elusive dream.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:52 AM   #13
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Back in those days I sold boats during the Summer. Many Massachusetts trades guys from "The Dig"came in, with cash, to buy their formally elusive dream.
True story??
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:12 AM   #14
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True.

Many trades people came in, with cash, not just from "The Dig"

Face it, under the table income has been around for a long, long time, and it was very noticeable in the boat business back then.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:28 AM   #15
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Back in those days I sold boats during the Summer. Many Massachusetts trades guys from "The Dig"came in, with cash, to buy their formally elusive dream.
"Trades guys" with cash stolen from Big Dig? C'mon. The project may have been over budget, and some money might have been misappropriated/stolen (I can't remember the latter), but it's pretty tough to see how money stolen from a government construction project in Massachusetts is stolen in cash by the guys swinging the hammers.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:47 AM   #16
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"Trades guys" with cash stolen from Big Dig? C'mon. The project may have been over budget, and some money might have been misappropriated/stolen (I can't remember the latter), but it's pretty tough to see how money stolen from a government construction project in Massachusetts is stolen in cash by the guys swinging the hammers.
I think the tradesmen may have capitalized on the big dig by working insane overtime hours...make hay while the sun shines!
Between the trades and the cop details there was lots of cash to be had.
Maybe some worked out deals for under the table, pay.
There are always ways to beat the system...especially when big city funds are involved.
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Old 07-20-2019, 12:06 PM   #17
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I think the tradesmen may have capitalized on the big dig by working insane overtime hours...make hay while the sun shines!

Between the trades and the cop details there was lots of cash to be had.

Maybe some worked out deals for under the table, pay.

There are always ways to beat the system...especially when big city funds are involved.
Agreed as someone that supplied ready mix concrete to many public jobs in nyc, I have seen a lot but converting I’ll gotten gains into cash on a public project is not likely.


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Old 07-20-2019, 01:55 PM   #18
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I think the tradesmen may have capitalized on the big dig by working insane overtime hours.
I’m not sure about the “working” aspect of those overtime hours but many many contractors took advantage of “no show hours” and putting additional “mannequins” on payroll. Pretty common occurrence on larger projects in Boston and NYC....ever watch the Sopranos?...it was spot on!
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:19 PM   #19
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Default Farm Island .....not the Big dig

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How did the planning board meeting go regarding this proposed subdivision?
The Farm Island hearing was packed standing room only. There were so many people that the Fire Chief had to cut off the number of people. Everyone was totally against the subdivision. Only one person in that large group said "let it go through".

Over 20 people spoke why it should not be allowed to happen. The Planning Board was presented with many documents and studies to review. They have a difficult and challenging job.

Nearly 300 people sighed a petition against the subdivision development. Channel 9 WMUR was there with cameras. It was shown on TV Thursday evening.

Next hearing is scheduled for August 1 at the Tuftonboro Elementary School up town. This will allow for even more people to attend.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:19 PM   #20
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"Trades guys" with cash stolen from Big Dig? C'mon.
You are a cherry picker. I never said the workers stole money (although I bet a lot of it ended up being tax free!)

Hillcountry hit the nail on the head- some of these guys were getting 2-3-4 times overtime pay- why wouldn't they take it? It was the people who were late meeting their "friendly" government contracts who, all of a sudden had to pay through their noses to complete the job (s), that were stealing the money to over pay.

You wouldn't have believed the number of weekly/bi-weekly boat rentals that went out on cash. The costs would seem moderate, by today's standards, but they couldn't spend the money fast enough to enjoy themselves- I said good for them!!!
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:12 PM   #21
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"Trades guys" with cash stolen from Big Dig? C'mon.
You are a cherry picker. I never said the workers stole money (although I bet a lot of it ended up being tax free!)
No need for name calling. But as I reread your original post, I see the confusion--Dickie referred to stolen money, you quoted and replied with under the table, and I connected the two. Sorry
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:12 PM   #22
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My brother in law was a tradesman on the big dig and he said anything that wasn't bolted to the ground was stolen... that's where alot of the Ill gotten money used to buy houses and boats came from.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:30 PM   #23
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The Farm Island hearing was packed standing room only. There were so many people that the Fire Chief had to cut off the number of people. Everyone was totally against the subdivision. Only one person in that large group said "let it go through".

Over 20 people spoke why it should not be allowed to happen. The Planning Board was presented with many documents and studies to review. They have a difficult and challenging job.

Nearly 300 people sighed a petition against the subdivision development. Channel 9 WMUR was there with cameras. It was shown on TV Thursday evening.

Next hearing is scheduled for August 1 at the Tuftonboro Elementary School up town. This will allow for even more people to attend.
So just curious as to what the objection is to allowing the property to be subdivided?

If all the requirements are met neither the citizens nor the town can say no just because we don't want it to be done. That is completely unfair. Do I personally like it, no, however that is no reason to prevent this from happening. If there are 300 people who don't like it and so concerned... then they can all pitch in about $6700 bucks a piece buy the property and turn it into conservation land.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:53 PM   #24
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So just curious as to what the objection is to allowing the property to be subdivided?

If all the requirements are met neither the citizens nor the town can say no just because we don't want it to be done. That is completely unfair. Do I personally like it, no, however that is no reason to prevent this from happening. If there are 300 people who don't like it and so concerned... then they can all pitch in about $6700 bucks a piece buy the property and turn it into conservation land.
I think just the fact that the town is asking for public input shows that the subdivision requires town consent & approval that has not yet been granted.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:37 PM   #25
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If there are 300 people who don't like it and so concerned... then they can all pitch in about $6700 bucks a piece buy the property and turn it into conservation land.
That's exactly what has happened. Camp Belknap has asserted that they can raise the money to buy the land.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:46 PM   #26
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Variety of issues exist regarding the development. Do any have legs...maybe not. I think the biggest issue is 1/3 of the island was sold a few years back to the ymca and many feel the rest of the island could be preserved in its current state by selling the remainder to the ymca camp. The ymca has made an offer to purchase the remainder at the same price as the developer. It has been turned down.
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Old 07-21-2019, 01:00 AM   #27
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Variety of issues exist regarding the development. Do any have legs...maybe not. I think the biggest issue is 1/3 of the island was sold a few years back to the ymca and many feel the rest of the island could be preserved in its current state by selling the remainder to the ymca camp. The ymca has made an offer to purchase the remainder at the same price as the developer. It has been turned down.
Does any one know why the offer by Camp Belknap to write a check for $1.5M to the Winchesters with no contengencies, no planning board meetings, not one of the 250+ signing a petition has been turned down since the offer was made to the owner Winchester's back in January 2019?

The Winchester keep giving extensions for the last 7 months since the P&S was signed back in October, 2018. Yet the Winchesters sold 1/3 of the island to Camp Belknap back in 2010. This does not make sense. Something is really going wrong in any kind of logic. WMUR and other local news outlets are starting to ask the same questions

How and why would anyone want to go through the trouble of all the pain of permitting and cost of development with 300 local folks saying... NO!!

This whole deal is really need to be investigated further. There are so many questions about what is going on here.
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:20 AM   #28
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Follow the money. If the YMCA was to purchase the remaining piece it would come off the local tax haul as they are tax exempt.


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Old 07-21-2019, 05:43 AM   #29
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Follow the money. If the YMCA was to purchase the remaining piece it would come off the local tax haul as they are tax exempt.


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Old 07-21-2019, 07:46 AM   #30
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Default ...... way to go, Tuftonboro!

Across the 19-Mile Bay, a close boat ride away, there's Camp Winaukee with its' summer camp campus situated on both the main land neck, and on an island as well. Does Camp Winaukee pay property taxes to Moultonborough for using their mainland/island properties as a summer camp? Yes, Camp Winaukee pays property taxes.

So, why does the YMCA Camp Belknap get to be property tax exempt in nearby Tuftonboro? Is most gracious that Tuftonboro will agree to their tax exempt, summer camp status. Way to go ....... Tuftonboro!
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:03 AM   #31
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Camp Winaukee is a private owned camp as the YMCA Is a nonprofit organization, but I am positive you knew this before writing


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Old 07-21-2019, 08:16 AM   #32
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Camp Winaukee is a private owned camp as the YMCA Is a nonprofit organization, but I am positive you knew this before writing


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Why bother?


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Old 07-21-2019, 09:21 AM   #33
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Default Farm Island article

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Does any one know why the offer by Camp Belknap to write a check for $1.5M to the Winchesters with no contengencies, no planning board meetings, not one of the 250+ signing a petition has been turned down since the offer was made to the owner Winchester's back in January 2019?

The Winchester keep giving extensions for the last 7 months since the P&S was signed back in October, 2018. Yet the Winchesters sold 1/3 of the island to Camp Belknap back in 2010. This does not make sense. Something is really going wrong in any kind of logic. WMUR and other local news outlets are starting to ask the same questions

How and why would anyone want to go through the trouble of all the pain of permitting and cost of development with 300 local folks saying... NO!!

This whole deal is really need to be investigated further. There are so many questions about what is going on here.
Check this out....Great article.....has all the facts correct. But there is even more to the story! Stay tuned.

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Savin...sland-26937008
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:34 AM   #34
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Ahoy there Mate ...... am blocked from reading this .... due to 5-articles/month limit ..... someone do me a favor and post this Concord Monitor article so it can be read .... thanks in advance ..... must be many others in this same boat! Hey, I don't want to buy it, I just want to read it!
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:39 AM   #35
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Check this out....Great article.....has all the facts correct. But there is even more to the story! Stay tuned.

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Savin...sland-26937008
So is the current P&S between the Winchesters and the development company or the Winchesters and YMCA? Above comments suggest the Y, the article suggests the developers.

And if both the Y and the developers offered the same money, why did the Winchesters take the developers over the Y? Other than straight $, it appears pretty clear that the Y's ownership would be much better for the region (see past discussions about dwindling summer camps/public access vs. affluent acquisition).

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Old 07-21-2019, 09:47 AM   #36
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And if both the Y and the developers offered the same money, why did the Winchesters take the developers over the Y? Other than straight $, it appears pretty clear that the Y's ownership would be much better for the region (see past discussions about dwindling summer camps/public access vs. affluent acquisition).
There is bad blood between the Winchesters and the camp. Like Chasedawg has said there is much more to this story.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:48 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by chasedawg View Post
Does any one know why the offer by Camp Belknap to write a check for $1.5M to the Winchesters with no contengencies, no planning board meetings, not one of the 250+ signing a petition has been turned down since the offer was made to the owner Winchester's back in January 2019?

The Winchester keep giving extensions for the last 7 months since the P&S was signed back in October, 2018. Yet the Winchesters sold 1/3 of the island to Camp Belknap back in 2010. This does not make sense. Something is really going wrong in any kind of logic. WMUR and other local news outlets are starting to ask the same questions

How and why would anyone want to go through the trouble of all the pain of permitting and cost of development with 300 local folks saying... NO!!

This whole deal is really need to be investigated further. There are so many questions about what is going on here.
You make it sound as if it's a big conspiracy here, bottom line is 12 lots all water front developed have huge profit potential. Now not that I know the exact details of the P&S, but I would think that there is a contingency on the purchase of the property pending successful acceptance of subdivision and lot development. Could very well be that agreement has some financial benefit to the current owners to allow the interested party the allotted time to attempt to get all that done. That is the sellers right to make a contractual agreement with such stipulations. So what would you do if you owned this property and there was a few hundred thousand or more on the table if you allowed extra time the process go through?

While it's noble that lots of people may not want this to happen - in typical not in my back yard fashion, mob rule doesn't or shouldn't come into play here. I'm sure a bunch of so called objectors already own property that probably have the same sketchy "historical" value, may have been a place loons could have nested as well, yet how many sleep well at night knowing they have destroyed loon habitat or plowed under some place the Indians used to camp out on (maybe) hundreds of years ago so common that's just grasping at whatever they can to stop this, none of the objections I have read have any reasonable rational behind them.

Far as I'm concerned the owners have every right if they so choose to get what they can out of that property.

Finally the town has zero right to steer via legislative power the proposed sale of any property without due cause. It's got nothing to do with additional tax revenue although as noted the end result is beneficial to both the town and tax payers.

Any one who wants to preserve this property should appeal directly to the current owners.
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:59 AM   #38
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Finally the town has zero right to steer via legislative power the proposed sale of any property without due cause. It's got nothing to do with additional tax revenue although as noted the end result is beneficial to both the town and tax payers.

Any one who wants to preserve this property should appeal directly to the current owners.
The town of Tuftonboro has every right to steer via legislative power the proposed sale of any property based on the mission statement of the planning board of town of Tuftonboro which I post below.

Mission Statement

The Planning Board mission is to promote the health, safety, convenience and general welfare of the population of the Town of Tuftonboro, to protect and conserve the rural and recreational value of property, to encourage the most appropriate use of land throughout the Town, and to promote the efficiency and economy in the process of development.

Also to your comment regarding "Any one who wants to preserve this property should appeal directly to the current owners"

That has indeed happened. The camp is offering the exact same money as the prospective developer and will preserve it if allowed to purchase it.
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:53 AM   #39
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You make it sound as if it's a big conspiracy here, bottom line is 12 lots all water front developed have huge profit potential. Now not that I know the exact details of the P&S, but I would think that there is a contingency on the purchase of the property pending successful acceptance of subdivision and lot development. Could very well be that agreement has some financial benefit to the current owners to allow the interested party the allotted time to attempt to get all that done. That is the sellers right to make a contractual agreement with such stipulations. So what would you do if you owned this property and there was a few hundred thousand or more on the table if you allowed extra time the process go through?

While it's noble that lots of people may not want this to happen - in typical not in my back yard fashion, mob rule doesn't or shouldn't come into play here. I'm sure a bunch of so called objectors already own property that probably have the same sketchy "historical" value, may have been a place loons could have nested as well, yet how many sleep well at night knowing they have destroyed loon habitat or plowed under some place the Indians used to camp out on (maybe) hundreds of years ago so common that's just grasping at whatever they can to stop this, none of the objections I have read have any reasonable rational behind them.

Far as I'm concerned the owners have every right if they so choose to get what they can out of that property.

Finally the town has zero right to steer via legislative power the proposed sale of any property without due cause. It's got nothing to do with additional tax revenue although as noted the end result is beneficial to both the town and tax payers.

Any one who wants to preserve this property should appeal directly to the current owners.
They may be overstretch if with their legislative power per the mission statement above but in the end the developer with need rezoning and permits to build on the 12 lots which I am sure the new owner will try to receive a commitment on before the sale.

This case has similarities to the people that were looking to rezone Big Island on Paugus were the governments are doing everything in their power to keep these islands as is


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Old 07-21-2019, 12:08 PM   #40
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No need for name calling. But as I reread your original post, I see the confusion--Dickie referred to stolen money, you quoted and replied with under the table, and I connected the two. Sorry
Fair enough- sorry for the slight.
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Old 07-21-2019, 12:15 PM   #41
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Ahoy there Mate ...... am blocked from reading this .... due to 5-articles/month limit ..... someone do me a favor and post this Concord Monitor article so it can be read .... thanks in advance ..... must be many others in this same boat! Hey, I don't want to buy it, I just want to read it!
Check around. Maybe you can get up before a neighbor and get the paper from their driveway.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:12 PM   #42
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You make it sound as if it's a big conspiracy here, bottom line is 12 lots all water front developed have huge profit potential. Now not that I know the exact details of the P&S, but I would think that there is a contingency on the purchase of the property pending successful acceptance of subdivision and lot development. Could very well be that agreement has some financial benefit to the current owners to allow the interested party the allotted time to attempt to get all that done. That is the sellers right to make a contractual agreement with such stipulations. So what would you do if you owned this property and there was a few hundred thousand or more on the table if you allowed extra time the process go through?

While it's noble that lots of people may not want this to happen - in typical not in my back yard fashion, mob rule doesn't or shouldn't come into play here. I'm sure a bunch of so called objectors already own property that probably have the same sketchy "historical" value, may have been a place loons could have nested as well, yet how many sleep well at night knowing they have destroyed loon habitat or plowed under some place the Indians used to camp out on (maybe) hundreds of years ago so common that's just grasping at whatever they can to stop this, none of the objections I have read have any reasonable rational behind them.

Far as I'm concerned the owners have every right if they so choose to get what they can out of that property.

Finally the town has zero right to steer via legislative power the proposed sale of any property without due cause. It's got nothing to do with additional tax revenue although as noted the end result is beneficial to both the town and tax payers.

Any one who wants to preserve this property should appeal directly to the current owners.
Even if this is 100% true (a couple of posters have suggested there may still be legal hurdles), that does not mean it is right for the Winchesters to sell to the developer.

An owner is presented with identical prices from two bidders for their land. One bidder will build houses for 12 families, increasing the environmental impact significantly. Another will grant low impact access to hundreds of kids every year, and protect the land forever.

If I were the Winchesters, I think I'd know how I'd want to be remembered.
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:25 PM   #43
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I'm actually surprised that the Town of Tuftonboro and/or the State of NH doesn't buy it and preserve it as conservation land......
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:17 PM   #44
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Check around. Maybe you can get up before a neighbor and get the paper from their driveway.
I actually understood that one!
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:56 PM   #45
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Even if this is 100% true (a couple of posters have suggested there may still be legal hurdles), that does not mean it is right for the Winchesters to sell to the developer.

An owner is presented with identical prices from two bidders for their land. One bidder will build houses for 12 families, increasing the environmental impact significantly. Another will grant low impact access to hundreds of kids every year, and protect the land forever.

If I were the Winchesters, I think I'd know how I'd want to be remembered.
Whether it is "right" or not is a matter of an emotional measure of right or wrong and while I get that it is still the owner's decision who they sell to. It would be no different than holding prejudice against one party because you simply don't like them or what they are interested in doing with property they one day could own.

Far as the mission statement of the town goes... that's all well and good but read the language carefully, words such as promote, and encourage they can certainly do and when it comes to say allowing special exceptions for development, these ideals can certainly play a part but they cannot just say you can't build a house there because the neighbors don't like it. Nor can they just inject themselves into a legal transaction between two parties just because. This is a serious overreach and I don't believe they have the authority to do so.

Keep in mind I am not taking sides on this just saying if all the requirements are met the town cannot come along and say no without just cause. The owner of the property has rights too. And not for nothing, ANY waterfront lot development creates an impact of some sort so using that as an argument then sets the precedence of what? No more waterfront lot development? Or is it just ok for some but not for others?
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:18 PM   #46
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How is it known that the owners were presented with identical offers? Have you seen the offers? It appears that the YMCA offer was contingent on raising funds.

Last edited by Sue Doe-Nym; 07-22-2019 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:07 AM   #47
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How is it known that the owners were presented with identical offers? Have you seen the offers? It appears that the YMCA offer was contingent on raising funds.
This is a fair point. Similarly, it appears the developer's offer is contingent on gaining town approval.

The bigger point, perhaps not articulated clearly enough--it's nice if someone can reap a windfall on property from their own hard work or their grandparents. It would also be nice if that person didn't feel the need to get every last dime and instead thought a bit about what's best for the community long term.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:11 AM   #48
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Question Hershey?

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I'm actually surprised that the Town of Tuftonboro and/or the State of NH doesn't buy it and preserve it as conservation land......
In the last few years, Tuftonboro bought a huge farm "for conservation". Wasn't that the Hershey Farm?
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:32 PM   #49
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In the last few years, Tuftonboro bought a huge farm "for conservation". Wasn't that the Hershey Farm?
The Cheney Farm.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:08 PM   #50
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Wink Cheney Farm...

That's the one--thanks!
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Old 07-27-2019, 06:48 AM   #51
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Opponents to Farm Island development packed a public hearing before the Tuftonboro Planning Board on July 18.

The board will again hear opinions on the proposal at a meeting on Aug. 1, which will take place at Tuftonboro Elementary School in anticipation of a heavier turnout than normal. However, the board is not likely to vote on the matter until a later date.

From the Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ntent=headline
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Old 07-27-2019, 07:10 AM   #52
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Opponents to Farm Island development packed a public hearing before the Tuftonboro Planning Board on July 18.

The board will again hear opinions on the proposal at a meeting on Aug. 1, which will take place at Tuftonboro Elementary School in anticipation of a heavier turnout than normal. However, the board is not likely to vote on the matter until a later date.

From the Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ntent=headline
The article was an interesting read. It sounds to me like many people became used to a non-developed island and incorrectly assumed it would always stay that way. From the article, it seems the current owners tried to sell it to an entity that would preserve it, but the funds/interest isn't there.

Sometimes people forget that all the waterfront homes we enjoy were once un-developed, pristine shoreline. Privately owned land should be able to be developed, as long as current zoning and rules are followed.

I would love to see all future development stopped, a limit on the size, speed, sound, and number of boats, free parking and access for island property owners, lower property taxes, and more, but that's not going to happen, nor should it.

I'll be curious as to how this all works out.
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Old 07-27-2019, 11:23 AM   #53
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I would love to see all future development stopped, a limit on the size, speed, sound, and number of boats, free parking and access for island property owners, lower property taxes, and more, but that's not going to happen, nor should it.
And yet there are people that think it can still happen! Greed is our worst enemy!

These folks should move to Squam Lake, instead of rattling our cage!
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Old 07-27-2019, 03:46 PM   #54
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My opinion has changed. Looks like camp Belknap had a few opportunities to purchase this property and for several reasons could not at the time pull the trigger. According to the article it appears the Winchesters tried to sell to the camp but it did not work out. The NIMBY crowd has no standing here, I wish the new owners well.
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Old 07-27-2019, 07:23 PM   #55
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Good article in LDS. If the buyers are sincere that they do not wish to develop the island beyond one simple home and only need a security blanket of sorts, then the solution is pretty obvious--in a 3-way deal, Camp Belknap could buy the development rights to the island from the current buyers for $500K to $1MM (I leave the exact number to the principals). The current buyers could pocket a big slug of cash today, dramatically reducing their risk; and Belknap could insure its tranquility for a lower price than would otherwise be possible.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...6e83059d7.html
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Old 07-27-2019, 09:29 PM   #56
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Good article in LDS. If the buyers are sincere that they do not wish to develop the island beyond one simple home and only need a security blanket of sorts, then the solution is pretty obvious--in a 3-way deal, Camp Belknap could buy the development rights to the island from the current buyers for $500K to $1MM (I leave the exact number to the principals). The current buyers could pocket a big slug of cash today, dramatically reducing their risk; and Belknap could insure its tranquility for a lower price than would otherwise be possible.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...6e83059d7.html

Flying Scout ding ding ding...you hit the target...but in reality it won't work. The developer has said flat out I will not sell any part of the island to the camp. They have said "I don't want any part of the camp functions and activities near my development". Yet Camp Belknap owes 1/3 of the island and the boundary lines between the homestead home to be restored and camp owned property is only 25' feet away. So go figure!!
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Old 07-27-2019, 10:33 PM   #57
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I’ve heard that the property may be in “current use” tax status. From my understanding that would mean either the seller or the potential buyer would need to come up with the difference between the reduced current use tax rate and the residential rate from the time the current use variance was granted. Depending on how long the island has been in “current use” that could be a tidy sum.
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Old 07-27-2019, 10:45 PM   #58
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I’ve heard that the property may be in “current use” tax status. From my understanding that would mean either the seller or the potential buyer would need to come up with the difference between the reduced current use tax rate and the residential rate from the time the current use variance was granted. Depending on how long the island has been in “current use” that could be a tidy sum.
Good thought....The potential buyer is going to continue with the "current use" status. From what I understand it will be a tree farm to gain "current use" status. Many trees will be removed especially the umbrella trees that have been there for 90 years.
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Old 07-28-2019, 04:37 AM   #59
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Lot of rumors out there. Who knows if half are true but I have heard there are tax issues ie. back taxes owed. I’m sure the town wants it developed for the tax revenue. Don’t believe the camp pays taxes.
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:13 AM   #60
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According to my sources, there is no back taxes owed on the land, and hasn't been.
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Old 07-28-2019, 03:54 PM   #61
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Good article in LDS. If the buyers are sincere that they do not wish to develop the island beyond one simple home and only need a security blanket of sorts, then the solution is pretty obvious--in a 3-way deal, Camp Belknap could buy the development rights to the island from the current buyers for $500K to $1MM (I leave the exact number to the principals). The current buyers could pocket a big slug of cash today, dramatically reducing their risk; and Belknap could insure its tranquility for a lower price than would otherwise be possible.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...6e83059d7.html
These "feel good" propositions always make me laugh.

How about letting the OWNER decide? or...... BUY IT and divide it your way and make that "3way" deal!
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Old 07-28-2019, 06:33 PM   #62
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According to my sources, there is no back taxes owed on the land, and hasn't been.
Good. I found it hard to believe since it wasn’t long ago the camp bought part of the island.
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Old 07-28-2019, 07:15 PM   #63
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These "feel good" propositions always make me laugh.

How about letting the OWNER decide? or...... BUY IT and divide it your way and make that "3way" deal!
You have confused a proposition that will make people feel good with a "feel good proposition". It is NOT a feel good proposition, it's a business deal. Obviously, all 3 parties would have to agree it was in their best interest. These types of transactions happen regularly. Here's a recent example of a current owner getting cold hard cash to forego development, it's an especially apt one because the developer had no emotions or town pressure

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/n...ir-rights.html
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Old 07-29-2019, 05:57 AM   #64
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I hate to see Farm Island developed too but I keep wondering why didn't Camp Belknap didn't buy the whole thing, or why somebody else didn't buy it to save it if they want it saved. It has been for sale for quite a while.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:35 AM   #65
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At the time they purchased the one third they didn’t have the money I believe. Lot changes going on there in past couple years to make needed improvements.
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Old 07-29-2019, 04:44 PM   #66
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Default current use

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Good thought....The potential buyer is going to continue with the "current use" status. From what I understand it will be a tree farm to gain "current use" status. Many trees will be removed especially the umbrella trees that have been there for 90 years.
The way current use works is that the owner gets a reduced tax rate for keeping the property in its current use as farmland ,woodland, unproductive land etc. Once the property is developed it is considered a change in use and a tax penalty is applied in the amount of 10 percent of the ad valorem value of the land. So 12 house lots at 300k each equals a penalty paid to Tuftonboro of 360000. Current use is only applicable if the property is at least 10 acres in size. Subdivision below that size triggers the penalty.

The only way to avoid the penalty is to not develop the property
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Old 07-29-2019, 05:41 PM   #67
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Default Farm Island

You are so right, WinnisquamZ , that is why so many of the private, independent camps are no longer operating. The tax bite got so large that private camps were forced to either significantly raise their summer tuition rates and run the risk of pricing themselves out of business, or, re-organize themselves within the protection of an existing non-profit organization and enjoy the financial relief afforded therewith. If the government 'tinkers' with the tax Code and makes changes to the non-profit qualifications or the amount an individual may deduct with respect to non-profits, then these camps will disappear, also.
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:51 PM   #68
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Default 2nd tuftonboro hearing is tonight 7:00 Tuftonboro elementary school

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Some of you may know that Farm Island in 19 Mile Bay is on the market. Farm Island is one of the few remaining undeveloped islands on Winnipesaukee.The Abenaki used to fish and hunt there, and there is a historic camp in the center of the island that goes back to when livestock spent the summer grazing there. Camp Belknap currently owns roughly 1/3 of the island and that portion is not on the market. There is a buyer interested in subdividing the 13+ acres into 12 buildable lots while preserving the historic camp. There is a hearing on July 18th at 7:00 at the Tuftonboro Town Hall at which this proposal to subdivide will be discussed. If you are interested in the future of Farm Island, come to the hearing on the 18th to learn more.
2nd Tuftonboro Planning Board hearing is tonight at 7:00 PM location has changed to Tuftonboro Elementary school to accommodate a larger crowd.

See you there...
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:03 PM   #69
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Default Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law.

Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island.

Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity
and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first!
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:34 PM   #70
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Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law.

Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island.

Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity
and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first!
RANDY welcome to the forum. Interesting first post.
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:35 PM   #71
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Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law.

Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island.

Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity
and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first!
So in your first-ever post you attack a YMCA camp that thousands of kids have loved for decades, citing things which don't appear to have much substantiation or any proof that the camp is corrupt in general?

Are those pesky kids making it difficult for you to build your McMansion?
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:37 PM   #72
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Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law.

Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island.

Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity
and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first!
One shouldn't throw stones in a glass house!!

https://owens-marine.pissedconsumer.com/review.html
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Old 09-06-2019, 02:40 PM   #73
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One shouldn't throw stones in a glass house!!

https://owens-marine.pissedconsumer.com/review.html
OUCH.

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Old 09-06-2019, 03:10 PM   #74
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Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law.

Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island.

Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity
and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first!
And so the saga regarding this individual and Farm Island begins. Tuftonboro planning board, hope you are watching this as well as the Winchesters.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:35 PM   #75
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Interesting. I guess the meeting last night didn't go well for this guy? FWIW and being in direct sight of the Belknap landing area they utilize to access the land they own, they do not land power boats, just canoes, kayaks and once in a while a sail boat gets blown in there. Having been there since early 2000's I have yet to see a nesting loon on that side of the island.
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Old 09-06-2019, 04:51 PM   #76
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Default Help Belknap

I contributed to Camp Belknap's purchase of 7.5 acres a decade ago. I would be happy to help them again. More so, after seeing Randy Owen's post.
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:45 PM   #77
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Not quoting the post as several have already done so....should be some interesting reading coming up on this thread.

The bar for debate going forward has certainly been moved. Im not sure that posting unsubstantiated accusations on a public forum is the best way to sway public opinion in your favor...
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:50 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Randy Owen View Post
Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law.

Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island.

Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity
and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first!
OMG! You are going to need more lawyers now!
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:59 PM   #79
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Just tuning in to this thread? Here's a little background music with a July 26 replay from the LaDaSun; 'Island plan leads to unhappy campers in Tuftonboro' .... a Lake Winnipesaukee summer camp, island melody with two color photographs showing 20-acre Farm Island plus a photo with campers in three sailboats.
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:17 PM   #80
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Default duty to inform

I appreciate all the input. The news is not anything but the facts. For the record I have had no problem with the camp in prior years. I held a contract with Gene Clark and Gene did everything he promised and the transaction was flawless. Currently management there is acting like they are above the law. Zoning is zoning. Shoreline protection laws are what New Hampshire requires.

Protecting the loons is important. When a person points to me for my custodial efforts for the protection of the environment and then builds an extremely busy boat landing right on top of one of the lakes best potential loon nesting areas I must speak out. This is a fraction of the broken laws. In turn I ask what are
we teaching our children? I felt a duty to inform

Sorry for any collateral frustration.
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Old 09-06-2019, 06:21 PM   #81
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I appreciate all the input. The news is not anything but the facts. For the record I have had no problem with the camp in prior years. I held a contract with Gene Clark and Gene did everything he promised and the transaction was flawless. Currently management there is acting like they are above the law. Zoning is zoning. Shoreline protection laws are what New Hampshire requires.

Protecting the loons is important. When a person points to me for my custodial efforts for the protection of the environment and then builds an extremely busy boat landing right on top of one of the lakes best potential loon nesting areas I must speak out. This is a fraction of the broken laws. In turn I ask what are
we teaching our children? I felt a duty to inform

Sorry for any collateral frustration.
To the Winchesters, is this how you want the legacy of the island to be remembered that has been in your family for decades?
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Old 09-06-2019, 07:31 PM   #82
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Default ill feelings

The Camp has done very many evasive things already directly to the Winchester family members. I am certain the lack of care the camp has demonstrated with Loons and the law only accelerates the ill feelings.
Thank you for your input.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:26 PM   #83
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Sorry randy but I’ve lived right there since 2002. The only loon nesting area that has occurred on the island since then is off the two black pins on northwest side of the island, more precisely the northernmost pin of the two which just so happens to be the land up for sale. I have no beef in this at all but the tact you displayed in your post is anything but professional and honestly with that type of attitude you displayed in your post I certainly wouldn’t want to be in a real estate transaction your involved in
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:31 PM   #84
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Default A losing plan

Randy Owen:
There are a lot more Camp Belknap alumni/supporters out there than you can imagine, plus the conservationists. Every time you post here, you lose ground. At the very least you should hire a PR firm to be your spokesman. At the best, you should just leave. It is obvious that maintaining or improving Lake Winnipesaukee is at the bottom of your to do list, if on the list at all.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:53 PM   #85
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Wait, is Randy trying to buy the property for sale? I don't understand why this tact is being taken. And the Randy Owen I searched on the Google has a lot of...history.

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Old 09-06-2019, 08:56 PM   #86
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I continue to be amazed at the lack of civil discourse whenever a contentious topic rears its head. Even a thin dime has two sides. In the case of Farm Island, can’t there be a civilized debate without the rancor?
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:45 PM   #87
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I continue to be amazed at the lack of civil discourse whenever a contentious topic rears its head. Even a thin dime has two sides. In the case of Farm Island, can’t there be a civilized debate without the rancor?
You’re aware that Randy Owen is in negotiations to purchase Farm Island from its long time owners correct? And that the YMCA camp already owns a portion of the island?
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:21 PM   #88
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Default transparency

the comments have not fallen on deaf ears. there remains a belief that wonderful things have come from this camp. at a time i engaged with gene clark with the most wonderful rewarding experience. but no one and no entity can act beyond the law. i offered full transparency to current director of the camp. to that end see what has come of it.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:32 PM   #89
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You’re aware that Randy Owen is in negotiations to purchase Farm Island from its long time owners correct? And that the YMCA camp already owns a portion of the island?

It should be also known that Camp Belknap has made an offer to purchase many months ago as well. It appears that the potential buyer RO is panicking and trying to grasp at any thing he can think of to create confusion. From what I Understand the Tuftonboro Planning Board is doing their due diligence to make sure they hear everyone's concerns about this project and get the facts from organizations that specialize in specifics like water quality, boat and land traffic conjestion etc. etc. The P&S was signed about a year ago. The Winchester family could have had their money many months ago without having to deal with Planning Board hearings. As it is there has been extension after extension and that continues. The Planning Board is doing their job. And the Planning Board could go on with their job of helping other Tuftonboro citizens with projects that do not impact the lake and surrounding areas like this subdivision that 90% of the locals object too.
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Old 09-07-2019, 08:38 AM   #90
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You’re aware that Randy Owen is in negotiations to purchase Farm Island from its long time owners correct? And that the YMCA camp already owns a portion of the island?

YES. If you read my post you will see that it is about civility.
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Old 09-07-2019, 10:22 AM   #91
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YES. If you read my post you will see that it is about civility.
Thanks. From my perspective, I’ve seen mostly thoughtful discussion from a number of forum members that live in the area of Farm Island. Again, in my opinion, it’s Mr. Owen that just dumped a can of gas over the campfire here.

I do agree that there has been a shift on here in the past few years but in the case of this this thread Mr Owen owns any escalation. It should be interesting to see what the planning board has to say.
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Old 09-07-2019, 04:37 PM   #92
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I continue to be amazed at the lack of civil discourse whenever a contentious topic rears its head. Even a thin dime has two sides. In the case of Farm Island, can’t there be a civilized debate without the rancor?
Sue, I agree in general. But Mr Owen has smeared a beloved institution that appears to be a great citizen, and he has done so with virtually no substitution at a time he is in a land dispute with that institution where he appears to be the less community-minded party. So I think those of us who have jumped on him have been relatively fair

On the plus side, he seems to have united the rest of the group
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Old 09-07-2019, 05:15 PM   #93
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Understood. I will try to MMOB. Hopefully, this will all be resolved amicably, ��
but that might be a stretch. Many of the wonderful camps have disappeared over the years, which is very sad.

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Old 09-07-2019, 05:34 PM   #94
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Assuming that RO is the buyer who has a binding purchase and sale agreement, the Winchesters do not have the legal right to back out, without being in breach of contract.

Given the flavor of his comments I suspect RO is attempting to sway public opinion to his side viz. the pending hearings.

Hello, backfire.
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Old 09-07-2019, 07:10 PM   #95
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Default Binding P & S?

I would expect the Owen P & S to be contingent on subdivision approval, so, "partially binding?" If there were no contingencies, the closing would have occurred ages back. The planning board cannot deny based on public sentiment. They just confirm that all the laws and ordinances are met. If they deny whimsically based on public sentiment, they will likely lose an appeal.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:55 PM   #96
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Default Farm Island continued

This is the latest....on Farm Island....Regional Planning Commission involved

"We need your help! The remainder of the island directly across from Camp Belknap is attempting to be purchased by a developer for subdivision into 10 lots on only 13 acres. Camp Belknap currently uses and conserves the 8 acres which Belknap purchased by donations for overnight camping and nature exploration. We are gravely concerned that a development of this size has the potential of polluting the water, creating noise and light pollution, creating congested waterways, as well as, parking and traffic concerns in our area. Due to the concerns regarding the proposed subdivision’s potential environmental impact to Lake Winnipesaukee, the Tuftonboro Planning Board has requested a review by the Regional Planning Commission. As a regional item of concern anyone living in a town on the lake needs to come voice their opinion. Please come to the meeting on October 3 at 7PM at the Tuftonboro Central School to show your support against the development. To learn more please see the links below."



Thank you in advance for the Support.



-Save 19 Mile Bay Group


https://www.concordmonitor.com/Savin...sland-26937008



https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/tuf...ttachments.pdf



https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/tuf...ttachments.pdf

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Old 10-04-2019, 02:18 PM   #97
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Default 10/3 meeting results??

Any information on last night's meeting?
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:46 AM   #98
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Any information on last night's meeting?

The hearing continues. Next hearing set for 10/17 at Tuftonboro Town Hall.
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