Septic Failure

[secondcurve]

If a lakeside septic system fails (50 years old, 70 feet from the lake) what is the process for replacing/fixing it? Does it need to be redesigned? Who can do this work, does the state need to get involved? What type of costs are likely for a 4-bedroom system.

[fatlazyless]

This sounds like a job for 'Septic Magic', only $7.94 at Wal-Mart.......help is just one flush away with Septic Magic!

Wiseguy kidding aside....Lowe's has this stuff call Roebuck's Septic Savior or something, that's designed to unlock problem septics for maybe 20-bucks. Probably not usable when the temp outside is a prolonged deep freeze, but what the heck.......just say a prayer or two....and pour it into the toilet....

[tummyman]

Good Luck....you may end up with a Porta-Potty before you are done. There are implications with the new Comprehensive Shoreland Protection Act and other state regulations...visit the DES web site on-line. There is lots of data there. You may be VERY close to the boundary for repair...I think it must be at least 75 ft from the lake but do not take my advise... research it on the state web site. But you will need to file applications with the state in any event, and they may want a modern fix if you have the land. I would contact a few installers and get their opinions about being able to repair it. One to call is Rob Ambrose at Ambrose Bros. in Meredith. They do great work. I replaced a system a few years ago...full deal and we got lots of quotes. The quotes were all over the place, so be sure you get a few. If you need a designer, Ames Assoc. in Meredith is terrific and will give you the correct guidance. Have fun...... And remember the toilet paper motto.... "The job's not over 'till the paperwork's done" !!!

[Blue Thunder]

I'm sure that Shorethings, a frequent contributor here can help steer you in the right direction.

BT

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

If a lakeside septic system fails (50 years old, 70 feet from the lake) what is the process for replacing/fixing it? Does it need to be redesigned? Who can do this work, does the state need to get involved? What type of costs are likely for a 4-bedroom system.

There are lots of contractors on the lake who specialize in handling the work and taking care of all the permits from the start. Don't frustrate yourself, let someone who knows the ropes handle it for you. In my opinion it's money well spent.

One person that comes to mind is Dave Farley at Diversified. http://www.divermarine.com/index.php...d=16&Itemid=37

He did some work for me this past summer and did a great job.

Good Luck!

Dan

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

If a lakeside septic system fails (50 years old, 70 feet from the lake) what is the process for replacing/fixing it? Does it need to be redesigned? Who can do this work, does the state need to get involved? What type of costs are likely for a 4-bedroom system.

Everyone hear has already given some great advice, and I second all of it.

Some things to keep in mind as you proceed. You are dealing with a system that is 50 years old. Many rules and regulations have changed in 50 years. And what was approved back then, or thought to be adequate back then, is probably not up to code today. So fixing your issue, may not be in the cards depending on what the issue is. And once you start done the path of working on the system you will be committed. As mentioned even to repair the system depending on what needs to be done may require a permit... that notifies that state, and that will start a process which may lead to the state telling you that your system needs to be updated to current minimum code.
So in short as your looking around at assessing what needs to be done, even if people tell you that the system can be fixed, make sure you get some estimates for both fixing the system and completely replacing the system to align to current codes. That way, if during the permitting process a fix becomes a replace you are not caught of guard.

As for cost, every situation is different. It all depends on your lot. Can you get far enough away from the water not to have to put in some high tech leach field, etc. etc.

[jmen24]

Subsurface division is a part of DES but not completely affiliated with CSPA. Typically if you have a system failure you do not need to redesign the system but a note will be made on the existing plan on file to note that a replacement according to the pre-existing standards was performed. You did not state weather it was a leach field failure, septic tank failure or a failure of any connecting pipes. There is a big different in how you would proceed with a repair and what you would need to do.

First step is go to the town and review your property file and determine that you have a current septic design on file, verify that it is current to the homes current status, i.e. it is a three bedroom design and your home is three bedrooms or less. Do not attempt to add a bedroom to the septic system and play it off as a replacement of an existing system in kind, you will not like what will happen to you and most if not all contractors doing the work will not do this for you.

If you are able to replace in kind and are not planning on adding anything you should be grandfathered as to location and size, the state may ask that you replace with a more efficient system of leaching to get you as close as possible to the current regulations. But they will typically not require this.

If all your information is current and you truely do have a failure (verified by a septic inspection report) you can typically deliver the report and system design on file to the town and state. A phone call will typically surfice, but have the information in case they request it (just do to proximity to water).

You will not have any issues with CSPA as this has nothing to do with changes within the buffer zone, i.e changes of loading on the system. If you are planning on adding additional space at anytime in the future, now is the time to bring your system up to snuff, which will require a new design and subsurface approval through the state. Both of these things are typically handled by your septic designer/installer.

If you decide to upgrade the system and need info on a designer, send me a PM, I have a local contact that is a retired state subsurface engineer that still does septic designs to keep busy, very reasonable.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by jmen24

First step is go to the town and review your property file and determine that you have a current septic design on file, verify that it is current to the homes current status, i.e. it is a three bedroom design and your home is three bedrooms or less.

So here is my question, when did NH start keeping track of septic designs? I have found there is a lot of information like this that was never kept as official records years ago......

[tummyman]

Hmmmmm......I thought the original inquiry said the system was 50 years old, meaning 1960's vintage. Probably not a lot of leaching and most likely no plans ever filed. Back then, many systems were home made cesspools with an old, used, and empty 275 gallon oil tank or something similar as a holding tank with leach fields of gravel filled holes. So, unless you did a superior job back then, most likely the town files are empty. But it is at least a place to start... The technology had not advanced much back then before permitting.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by tummyman

Hmmmmm......I thought the original inquiry said the system was 50 years old, meaning 1960's vintage. Probably not a lot of leaching and most likely no plans ever filed. Back then, many systems were home made cesspools with an old, used, and empty 275 gallon oil tank or something similar as a holding tank with leach fields of gravel filled holes. So, unless you did a superior job back then, most likely the town files are empty. But it is at least a place to start... The technology had not advanced much back then before permitting.

I like the bold I added.

My leach field was originally installed in 1964, upon inspection in 2003 it was found to have failed, the design was pulled from the file pertaining to my property and the system was replaced in kind. No permits required, don't know what to tell ya. Researching permiting requirements as well as filing on behalf of my customers is my job. Not all towns work the same, but for Secondcurves sake, a system such that the towns we work in, will make life slick, if not, my statement is still true, it just requires more work.

If you pull your tax card at the town office, what does it say in the box for private septic system size? It does not matter what the system is currently, it is the size of the system that matters, this is called the septic system design. It is not a physical plan that shows how the system is laid out on the lot. It has to do with how much water the lot can leach in a perk test. If you want to replace an old pvc system with the new Enviro system, have at it, but it needs to be the same design, i.e size.

[Onshore]

Env-Wq 1406.04 Activities in Protected Shoreland That Do Not Require a Shoreland Permit.

(a) A person shall not be required to obtain a permit under RSA 483-B:5-b, I,(a) prior to undertaking any activity listed in (c) or (d), below, in the protected shoreland, provided that the activity is conducted in accordance with the conditions noted.

(d) Activities exempt pursuant to (a), above, because the activity constitutes de minimis construction, excavation, or filling shall be as follows:

(8) Replacement of a failed septic system, either in-kind as specified in Env-Wq 1003.10 or under a new approval, provided there is no increase in sewage loading from the structure(s) served by the system;

In short, get squared away with the subsurface systems folks and get a new system, designed to meet the needs of the existing structure, installed as soon as possible.

[tummyman]

You may find this link very helpful...
http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...ents/ssb-9.pdf

[hemlock]

I completed a successful quest to get the septic plan for our Cow Island camp. My Grandfather submitted a hand written plan in 1967 for a 2 bedroom system. We had already in our files both an approval for construction document and an approval for operation document signed by the state and the town. Using that we were able to get them to dig into the archives and pull the actual plan. The pertinent point here is that this was the first year that this requirement for septic plans and approvals existed. If this system is truly 50 years old (1959 vintage) there will be no records. For example the State began by using a sequential numbering system and ours was # 63.
The subsurface bureau is well aware that there are pre 1967 systems and is very accommodating when redsigns are needed

[secondcurve]

Thanks everyone for their input. It has been helpful, although I am still not sure what type of cost range I am potentially facing. My system hasn't failed yet, but several in the area have so I am sure it is simply a matter of time for me. Thus, I am trying to get ready and potentially be preemptive, depending on cost.

I have done a little more research since my initial post. The leach field is less than 50-feet from the water's edge and the age of the system is actually 42 years. I am located in Tuftonboro. My lot is small, shallow and steep so I don't see how the system can be moved to a better location on my property. Would this type of situation require a redesign to replace the leach field? At what type of cost? Thanks for the help.

[jmen24]

Secondcurve, when you say that the other systems on your street are failing, have any of your neighbors mentioned what the determining cause was?

The reason I ask is that there are a few different ways that a leach field can fail:

1. Pipe crush failure; stones will be black, as well as the soil just below the surface, grass may or may not be really green and thick. Driving a vehicle over the leach field, roots growing within the system.

2. Soil saturation; grass will be VERY green and top soil will seam soft all the time, may have a slight sewer smell when it rains or after heavy load. Mostly caused by runoff and poor soil drainage.

3. Bacteria death; system will back up frequently, problems with toilets. This can be caused by a number of things, but the big issues that cause it are washing latex paint down the drains, chemotherapy treatments, use of a garbage disposal and heavy use of dishwashers and washing machines. The first two reasons (I sincerely hope) are not the root cause of all the other failures but they do cause this, the second two are very common and in fact having a disposal system installed on a newly installed septic system is direct grounds for a voided warranty by the installer.

4. Inattention; failure due to not keeping up with pumping the system and checking the baffles within the tank. These prevent the surface scum from entering the leach field and blocking the system. Pumping the tank at a maximum of every four years and sooner the more people living at the house.


If you were a customer of mine, I would set up an inspection of the system and have the system pumped at the same time if it has been more than two years. Having the system inspected will give you an idea of what the condition is and whether you are moving toward a problem.

I know of a few companies that we work with that are really good to work with and can handle the entire process from pumping, inspecting, designing and replacing. My direct recommendation is Henniker Septic Service, if you end up having to replace the system it will come with a 15 year warranty (as long as you adhere to some of the things I listed above) and you will only have to work with one company for the entire process. He is a straight shooter, if you system is fine, he will tell you so, if it needs replacement, that too, if you just need to keep up with it, you will know that as well. I am not sure if he travels that far, but when I had him on a job two months ago he was slow and looking at other jobs that were well south of our location.
http://www.hennikerseptic.com/septic.html

As far as costs, here is what you are looking at, all I know is that your site is steep. But these are the determining factors for changes within the pricing for a replacement system.
Soil type (sand is better, ledge and organic is bad) basically the better your existing soil is the less material removed and replaced.
Access to site, this is not something that is done with a shovel and a wheel barrow, the smaller the equipment the more time needed to perform the work.
Depth of repair needed, simple remove and replace or full rework from the house out including design.

Inspection $200-400, figure on the high side and have everything checked in depth.
Pumping $170-500, depends on the size of the tank, 1000 gals on the small end, 1500 gal average, and multi's on the high end.
New design $1000-3500, depends on the type of system being installed.
Installation $6500-24,000, low end is flat, sandy soil, wide open access. Top is a system we installed on a rocky, steep slope (when looking into core samples during building design phase, a track core rig was out of the question due to slope, fall on your butt, steep) on Lake Sunapee, super complex system due to size of house load and how little space left to install system.

That will get you started, fill in the blanks as far as what type of situation you have, but do not wonder if you are sitting on a failing system, it is cheap money to find out. Obviosly we have just entered the time frame when inspection and replacement is very difficult and becomes more expensive to perform. Wait till spring and get a pump out and inspection. Road bans are usually off by the second week in May so mark mid to end of April on your calendar and do not let it pass by. Find out what caused your neighbors issues in the mean time.

Really sorry for the long post.

[SAMIAM]

Secondcurve, I had a system that failed also and I installed a Presby Enviromental System......They use 12" pipe with mesh baffles and can even be installed on a hillside.RA Dunlap & Son in Moultonborough was the contractor....great job and price.
You should google up the Presby system and give Bob Dunlap a call.......I believe he might be able to install it in the same footprint......not sure about the law on that but they are far superior to the old 4" perforated pipe/crushed stone systems and well worth it even if you have to relocate.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by jmen24

Secondcurve, when you say that the other systems on your street are failing, have any of your neighbors mentioned what the determining cause was?

The reason I ask is that there are a few different ways that a leach field can fail:

1. Pipe crush failure; stones will be black, as well as the soil just below the surface, grass may or may not be really green and thick. Driving a vehicle over the leach field, roots growing within the system.

2. Soil saturation; grass will be VERY green and top soil will seam soft all the time, may have a slight sewer smell when it rains or after heavy load. Mostly caused by runoff and poor soil drainage.

3. Bacteria death; system will back up frequently, problems with toilets. This can be caused by a number of things, but the big issues that cause it are washing latex paint down the drains, chemotherapy treatments, use of a garbage disposal and heavy use of dishwashers and washing machines. The first two reasons (I sincerely hope) are not the root cause of all the other failures but they do cause this, the second two are very common and in fact having a disposal system installed on a newly installed septic system is direct grounds for a voided warranty by the installer.

4. Inattention; failure due to not keeping up with pumping the system and checking the baffles within the tank. These prevent the surface scum from entering the leach field and blocking the system. Pumping the tank at a maximum of every four years and sooner the more people living at the house.


If you were a customer of mine, I would set up an inspection of the system and have the system pumped at the same time if it has been more than two years. Having the system inspected will give you an idea of what the condition is and whether you are moving toward a problem.

I know of a few companies that we work with that are really good to work with and can handle the entire process from pumping, inspecting, designing and replacing. My direct recommendation is Henniker Septic Service, if you end up having to replace the system it will come with a 15 year warranty (as long as you adhere to some of the things I listed above) and you will only have to work with one company for the entire process. He is a straight shooter, if you system is fine, he will tell you so, if it needs replacement, that too, if you just need to keep up with it, you will know that as well. I am not sure if he travels that far, but when I had him on a job two months ago he was slow and looking at other jobs that were well south of our location.
http://www.hennikerseptic.com/septic.html

As far as costs, here is what you are looking at, all I know is that your site is steep. But these are the determining factors for changes within the pricing for a replacement system.
Soil type (sand is better, ledge and organic is bad) basically the better your existing soil is the less material removed and replaced.
Access to site, this is not something that is done with a shovel and a wheel barrow, the smaller the equipment the more time needed to perform the work.
Depth of repair needed, simple remove and replace or full rework from the house out including design.

Inspection $200-400, figure on the high side and have everything checked in depth.
Pumping $170-500, depends on the size of the tank, 1000 gals on the small end, 1500 gal average, and multi's on the high end.
New design $1000-3500, depends on the type of system being installed.
Installation $6500-24,000, low end is flat, sandy soil, wide open access. Top is a system we installed on a rocky, steep slope (when looking into core samples during building design phase, a track core rig was out of the question due to slope, fall on your butt, steep) on Lake Sunapee, super complex system due to size of house load and how little space left to install system.

That will get you started, fill in the blanks as far as what type of situation you have, but do not wonder if you are sitting on a failing system, it is cheap money to find out. Obviosly we have just entered the time frame when inspection and replacement is very difficult and becomes more expensive to perform. Wait till spring and get a pump out and inspection. Road bans are usually off by the second week in May so mark mid to end of April on your calendar and do not let it pass by. Find out what caused your neighbors issues in the mean time.

Really sorry for the long post.

Thanks Jmen24:

I really appreciate the time you took to lay this all out. I now have a good understanding of what I am up against. What role does your company play in septic installs?

Samiam:

I appreciate your input as well as you often have good advice.

[jmen24]

We do most of our work in house, but we sub out excavation, electrical, plumbing and HVAC. Our role would be in planning, scheduling and QC. You are going to want to work directly with a contractor of your choice, it will save you the cost of an additional person in the mix. Like I said, work with someone that will perform all aspects of this for you, but start with the inspection and do not mention anything about your neighbors issues if you are worried about having someone up sell without the need. The company I recommended would fit well with that, but you are free to choose however you feel comfortable with.

Good luck, if you have any questions when you get into it this spring drop a PM, I will help the best I can.

[SIKSUKR]

Great info jmen.I wasn't looking for any septic discussion but I did find the information you posted very interesting and enlightening.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

jmen24,
Great post!
Questions:
1) Does inspecting a system require digging up the yard? How bad?
2) If the inspection uncovers a problem, is the inspector required to notify the state?

Thanks

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

jmen24,
Great post!
Questions:
1) Does inspecting a system require digging up the yard? How bad?
2) If the inspection uncovers a problem, is the inspector required to notify the state?

Thanks

1. It really depends on how deep your system is. If it is like mine and the tank is alot deeper than it needs to be and the top of the tank is over three feet below grade, than a little more digging is required. Most systems are not this deep and they can be at the top of the tank within a few inches of the surface grade. The leach field only requires enough material to be removed so that the stone is exposed, so not a whole lot of digging their as most leach fields are within 12-24 inches of the surface.

2. As far as I know they will not contact the state but I say that with a loaded response because the only times we had issues on our jobs we had to replace anyway, due to our obligations to the laws of the state and our warranty. I would think a quick call to a company that would perform inspections would answer that quickly. I would not like to say yes or no, because I do not really know, I would think they would be obligated but it may depend on the nature of the failure.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by jmen24

2. As far as I know they will not contact the state but I say that with a loaded response because the only times we had issues on our jobs we had to replace anyway, due to our obligations to the laws of the state and our warranty. I would think a quick call to a company that would perform inspections would answer that quickly. I would not like to say yes or no, because I do not really know, I would think they would be obligated but it may depend on the nature of the failure.

As jmen seems to elude to here, I think there is probably a lot of grey area here... and it all depends on the contractor....and the nature of what they uncover. I think the big thing is to know your are working with a repetuable and trustworthy contractor.