Bubbler .vs. Circulator

[feb]

First off, let me apologize for jumping the gun a little bit. I know it's barely August and I haven't even started my Summer vacation yet but I wanted to get started early with this question so I can be prepared.

I just had some shorefront stairs put in which was a serious investment for me. Now I want to protect it. Even though the stairs weigh a couple of tons, I'm sure the ice is capable of doing some damage.

I searched the forum and found some discussions but wasn't able to get an answer based on my specific situation. Basically I want to protect the stairs that were just put in from being surrounded by thick ice. Thin ice is OK. It's basically 12' of shoreline with water depths between 1 and 4 feet.

Which would be best, a bubbler or a circulator, based on peoples' experiences? I suspect the shallow water may cause issues.

[Mink Islander]

As a practical matter, it seems like you could set a circulator in deeper water aimed towards your stairs and keep a larger area of open water including your stairs. A bubbler system could accomplish the same I would think.

[ACutAbove]

Do you also have a dock in this area that you would like to keep ice free? Is there something there to mount the bubbler or circulator to? Both would do the job, you could get a timer to run either one. Are you in a cove or on the open lake. More info would deffinatly be helpful....

[Lakegeezer]

Do snowmobilers use the lake as a trail near your steps? Some bubblers make the ice unsafe for a lot larger area than is required. You need to put a sign in the area to show it is unsafe. Some people use a red light as well. If its a heavy snowmobile area, think about how you can protect your steps while minimizing the melted area.

Oh - and thanks for bringing this up on a 90+ degree day. Talking about winter helps to take the edge off a bit.

[jimbob1603]

Yo Feb,
Both circulator and bubbler work well. But, bubbler is MUCH cheaper to run; bubbler has higher set up costs. I went the bubbler route and defend its application ...... while fully respecting the opinions of those who prefer a circulator.
J

[feb]

Thanks for the info jimbob. Based on your experience, do you think a bubbler would work in shallow water - say 2 - 4 feet?

[jimbob1603]

Feb,
I think a bubbler would work fine in two feet of water. They are so damn cheap to run, you can't afford not to use it! It costs me about $25 to run a 6 cfm compressor for the entire ice season.

In any case, always use a thermostat to control the compressor/circulator.

Check out the thread "De-Icers" by egatlake on 5-12-6 (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=2434) You can see me rant & rave about the virtues of a bubbler. I can't dispute the additional work to set up a bubbler ..... but this kind of work is fun at the lake ..... actually, everything is fun at the lake!
J

[onthebay]

Last winter was the first time running a circulator through the winter. The electric bill was a bit more than I expected. It is on a timer but it seems like the previous owner had it set to run more time than not.
What times do others run their circulators. More at night than during the day? I am not up full time so I would rather error on the side of caution.

[jimbob1603]

I have my bubbler set up to run on a thermostat; on/off at 35/45. Ice formation is temperature dependent. I'll turn the whole gizmo on the first weekend in December and off the last weekend in March. I think it costs me less than $50 to run both compressors for the season.

[winifisherman]

For a number of years, I have used a thermostat that turns my ice eater on and off when set to 33 degrees; this has worked well and saved on the electric bill at the start and end of the winter when the temperatures are more frequently above freezing. However, I'm considering adding a timer on to it so that it will not run continuously when the temperature is at freezing or below. Does anybody else do this? Are there any rules of thumb, for how long to run an ice eater/bubbler?

Searching Winnipesaukee forum, I came up with the following two varied responses already:

1) "Setting the timer so the propeller runs for thirty minutes out of every two hours should be enough to maintain one's little ice-free zone. When the temperature is below 32, the thermostat switch is open, as well."

2) "I have mine on a 24 hour heavy duty timer set to turn on for 2 hours 3 times a day. keeps the piers clear and is cheaper to run than fixing the ice damage."

THANK YOU

[fatlazyless]

There's something like that, a timer & thermostat, in one unit for about $150. which is way way overpriced for what it is, but it does a good job. I have one, and it is reliable.

Probably, you could connect separate timer and separate thermostat and do it yourself.

If Wal-Mart sold a Chinese made version, it would cost something like 29.95. The trailer and dock store, whose name I forget, on Route 3 at the Meredith-Laconia line has them for about $150.

[Orion]

I have the circulator on running off a "gray box" timer near the dock with a thermostat in line also. I used it last year with no problems set at 8 hrs on and 16 hrs off. Probably could reduce further, but haven't tested. The thermostat comes on at 32 and goes off at 40 (would like to find one with a lower upper limit).

[Mink Islander]

I have 2 inline themostats (on each of 2 ice-eaters) that I found online hooked up to the typical grey box timer. I run mine for 1 hr on 2 hrs off typically. The thermo will save you some $$.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by feb

"...Which would be best, a bubbler or a circulator, based on peoples' experiences? I suspect the shallow water may cause issues..."

1) Call Winnipesaukee Aquatherm in Alton. They (he) provides a seasonal ice-protection service in the area and may be able to advise.

2) You may not need any ice protection: Are the stairs under water during the winter season? The lake is normally drained to a much lower level than summer.

3) Two new neighbors run their circulators to the point that water is cleared around my dock. I have both "gray-box" timers and thermostat, but may be able to unplug mine altogether!

[Cobalt]

I currenty use two circulators that sit on the lake bottom. Less than three weeks ago, the area was ice free.

A shift in the wind blew in chunks of ice about three inches think, and less than a couple of hours later completely encased my dock and the entire area leading to the Long Island Bridge on the Marina side. The circulators were running at the time, and have been running since. The thick ice combined with below zero temps have been a challenge for the circulators to completely open the dock area.

My questions are: How effective would a bubbler be in this situation, and how noisy are the compessors?

Thanks.

[tis]

That's the problem Cobalt. Years ago we bubbled our dock but many springs the wind would shift the ice and back it would come, right into our dock. I once saw a wind smash ice into my neighbors dock and tip it right up. The ice had gone to the north, the dock was clear, the wind shifted to the south and whammo. The dock got it! With us anyway, we feel most of the damage is done when the ice is breaking up. So we haven't bothered for years and our dock has been no more nor no less damaged.

[DRH]

As several others have said, neither a bubbler or circulator will help once the ice starts to break up and blow around in the spring. But there are two primary benefits of keeping some open water around your dock during the winter.

First, the ice expands and contracts to a surprising degree. That's what causes ice ridges, where the ice will crack and one section will ride up over an adjacent section. That same expansion effect can crush a dock if the ice is allowed to freeze solid around the pilings. Even crib docks can be damaged by expanding ice, which has amazing power. I've seen cases where the expanding ice has even badly damaged large breakwaters, dislodging and moving huge rocks you wouldn't think could be moved.

Second, when the lake freezes solid around your dock, especially when the lake level is low, and the lake begins to rise in the spring before the ice melts, the rising ice can lift a frozen dock right off its pilings or cribs, or even lift the pilings themselves up out of the lake bottom.

Many docks not protected by a bubbler or circulator seem to go unscathed year after year, but I've seen enough docks that have been damaged by expanding and/or rising ice that I always try to keep some open water around our dock.

[tis]

I guess you just have to learn your own area and your own dock and see what works best for you. Nobody can tell someone else what will work at their place.

[Webbsatwinni]

When we arrived at Rattlesnake we noticed that our bubbler was not working and the ice around the dock was thick. The timer and temp control was working and with the silence of the lake, we could hear the bubbler below the ice.

We cut a hole in the ice where we thought we placed the bubber (the ice near the dock was 9+ inches) and found that the plastic fins on the prop were sheared off. We were able to get a new one from water mark and fixed it and now the ice is wearing away.

When we drove around Rattlesnake, we did make an observation. Although there were many docks with thin ice signs, only a few had open water, the rest looked as solid as ours did. Do most people come back (or have a service do it) towards the end of winter and start the bubblers to save power or is there a larger issue that may be caused by debris or the electrical issues that island experienced (or is still experiencing)?

Being new to the bubbler thing (last year) we were told to set it when we left and let it run for the winter.

I guess my concern is for those who left their bubblers set in October and assumed that they are working away, to me, that did not seem to be the case.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

When we arrived at Rattlesnake we noticed that our bubbler was not working and the ice around the dock was thick. The timer and temp control was working and with the silence of the lake, we could hear the bubbler below the ice.

We cut a hole in the ice where we thought we placed the bubber (the ice near the dock was 9+ inches) and found that the plastic fins on the prop were sheared off. We were able to get a new one from water mark and fixed it and now the ice is wearing away.

When we drove around Rattlesnake, we did make an observation. Although there were many docks with thin ice signs, only a few had open water, the rest looked as solid as ours did. Do most people come back (or have a service do it) towards the end of winter and start the bubblers to save power or is there a larger issue that may be caused by debris or the electrical issues that island experienced (or is still experiencing)?

Being new to the bubbler thing (last year) we were told to set it when we left and let it run for the winter.

I guess my concern is for those who left their bubblers set in October and assumed that they are working away, to me, that did not seem to be the case.

Webbsatwinni - I can tell you from our own experience this winter that the bitterly cold stretch of weather we've had, coupled with the high winds, have made it a challenge for us to keep open water around our dock even with a circulator going 24 hours a day! I've had to go down to the dock a number of times with a long, strong pole and whack at the ice that has formed even where there is good water circulation. It seems that the water temp even 4 - 5 feet down (where our circulator prop is) is so close to 32 degrees that the bitterly cold air temp. and wind have been able to flash-freeze the surface of the water even though it has been in motion. We've even had a frozen dome of ice that has formed directly over the circulator. I think without my whacking the ice with the pole on a number of occasions, our dock would have probably frozen in too. Even with the manual whacking of the ice, the area of open water at our dock is the smallest we've ever seen in our 15 winters at the lake.

One other factor that may be affecting Rattlesnake is the length of time the power was out after the ice storm several weeks ago. Days without power no doubt let the ice grow fairly thick where circulators/bubblers weren't able to run.

Any idea what caused the prop. blades on your circulator to shear off?

[Webbsatwinni]

Thanks DRH,

I poked around in the area of the bubbler and did not find any debris near it. Both fins were gone and the bubbler was working properly, but without fins.......

The other thing that we noticed was that with the low lake level, the ice is directly over the bubbler, I am wondering if that when the power did come back on, was there ice that was broken up and became lodged in the blades causing the issue.

We were able to get it running and hope by the next time we go up it chews up some of the ice that formed. I wanted to point this out to others that if they are counting on their bubblers this year, they may want to have it checked.

I was amazed at the amount of ice that was on our dock and posts. Looks like it was from repeated spraying over the breakwater. On the dock posts, they are covered with 6+ inches of ice on the NW facing side.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by DRH

"...Any idea what caused the prop. blades on your circulator to shear off...?"

The Winnipesaukee Aquatherm guy puts out a lot of circulators, so when he says it's debris, I listen. It's a good idea to carry trimmed-brush debris away from the shoreline.

I note that he places the circulators relatively deeply. In April, they still churn the water strongly, but don't make any splashing noises at the surface—unlike some of my neighbors' circulators.

Winnipesaukee Aquatherm: (603) 875-3864.

[Webbsatwinni]

This is the ice buildup on the north side of all dock posts. The ice built a solid wall from the dock to the lake level that is 6+ inches thick.

[Mink Islander]

While power wasn't off long on Mink Island, power surges did trip my breaker for the circuit the ice eaters are on. Now running both units 24/7 until next weekend hoping it will open things up a bit. For what it's worth, neither of the other two docks near me with active ice eaters were creating anywhere near the level of open water they usually do.

[Massasauga]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

We cut a hole in the ice where we thought we placed the bubber (the ice near the dock was 9+ inches) and found that the plastic fins on the prop were sheared off. We were able to get a new one from water mark and fixed it and now the ice is wearing away.

I probably have the same circulator (basically a well pump mounted on a metal frame with a plastic prop on it)... I find I need to replace this prop most every year to the tune of about $20. The prop often just disintegrates from the pressure of just turning the unit on for the first time each season.

[Webbsatwinni]

Originally Posted by Massasauga

I find I need to replace this prop most every year to the tune of about $20. The prop often just disintegrates from the pressure of just turning the unit on for the first time each season.

We did, when we bought it they told us to replace it every year, so it was a new one in October.

Thanks

[codeman671]

We run 2 circulators on timers and thermostats. Since I got rid of the airboat I don't make too many winter trips out so we pay ISS to monitor them for us. I am still on my original set of fins on both and have not lost one yet in the last 4 seasons, although we keep 2 on hand just in case.

I may try to borrow a sled in the next week or two to take a ride out for myself just to check.

[TiltonBB]

Watermark's circulators came with a plastic prop. Mine went bad the second year. Now they have a replacement metal prop. that works much better. If you are still using the plastic one you might think about a replacement.

[Lakepilot]

We had a bubbler until 5 or 6 years ago when it got caught under one of the dock posts and was destroyed. I tried to buy a new one but was told they don't sell them anymore since they contain lead as a weight.

We bought a circulator from Bradleys in Wolfeboro at that time. It has a plastic prop and it's still going strong. The prop looks new.

[Webbsatwinni]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Watermark's circulators came with a plastic prop. Mine went bad the second year. Now they have a replacement metal prop. that works much better. If you are still using the plastic one you might think about a replacement.

TiltonBB,

We looked at the metal prop and choose to stay with the plastic. We were told that the plastic was meant to shear off if hit by debris where it may get lodged in the metal one and burn out the motor.

That said, we went with Metal when we fixed it this weekend.

[camp guy]

I live off the water at this time, but I, too, struggled with the question of what to use, and I did, in fact, try both over time. This thread comes up each winter, and the usual comments are made, and, as has been the case in the past, the comment is made that it isn't so much during the winter that problems occur, it is when the ice breaks up and 'goes out'. Well, this is true, but it is also true that during the winter there can be major problems. I had to completely redo my pilings because the ice had formed tightly around them and due to some shifting (I can't explain the technical process) of the HUGE ice plate the pilings were actually lifted up and left the decking totally askew. In the spring, when the ice was breaking up, both my wife and I spent hours out on the dock with long poles (think pieces of strapping) pushing the ice aside so as to miss our dock during is travel. The wind is critical to the survival of your dock during ice out. It doesn't take much wind to create a large amount of momentum which can easily damage a dock.

[Orion]

Just checked the condition of our circulator action yesterday. The time is set to 12 hrs on and 12 hrs off with a 32-40 degree thermostat in-line. It looks like it was keeping the 12' wide x 25' long area between the fingers of the U-dock clear, with some clearing outside the fingers, but the frigid temps last week caused a partial freezover of thin ice. When the temps get back to "normal" it should re-clear. So, I left the timer as-is for now.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by camp guy

"...I had to completely redo my pilings because the ice had formed tightly around them..."

The dock pictured below is fairly new—certainly far newer than my 25-year-old piling dock that I've had to repair about every other Spring.

This new one has a breakwater made of boulders facing the worst of the wind-pushed ice floes.

I've long admired the "bulletproof" appearance of supports embedded in the boulders of the breakwater; however, one side has broken off, most likely during last winter's ravages. (It could also have been due to a bad location of a wood-knot in the beam).

In years past, we spoke of temporary docks and permanent docks. I'm now convinced there is no such thing as a "permanent" dock....