Backup Generators

[NoBozo]

I just bought a Honda 2000i Generator with two 20 Amp 120 volt outlets. (Like your house outlets.) I'm thinking I can PULL (Turn Off) the Main 100 Amp breaker to the street, and back feed my generator IN ..to a normal weatherproof outdoor receptacle on the deck. Then I can supply power (Up to 2000 Watts) to any receptacle in the house. THE ONLY appliance I expect to feed is the refrigerator, and the furnace for Hot Water. (Showers).

Refrigerator, and Furnace. Nothing more. No Freezers, microwaves, electric stoves/ovens/TVs. If this works..I can add something else...until the generator trips out.

What do you think..?? NB

[camp guy]

This subject was discussed a t l e n g t h a while back, during the days that CateP was posting a lot about moving the NH and buying a house. The subject of generators was extensively discussed, covering every aspect of generators. As I recollect, the overiding tone of the discussions was that generators present too many potential problems, and generally speaking, a homeowner ought to be extremely wary of doing the wiring themselves - leave it to a licensed electrician and check with the local Code Enforcement Officer about specifics. Safety is the absolute overiding criteria to be aware of.

Good luck.

[Happy Gourmand]

Do it the right way. Don't risk the consequences. Have it hooked up by a licensed electrician. You could be liable if the power back feeds to the grid and causes injury.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I just bought a Honda 2000i Generator with two 20 Amp 120 volt outlets. (Like your house outlets.) I'm thinking I can PULL (Turn Off) the Main 100 Amp breaker to the street, and back feed my generator IN ..to a normal weatherproof outdoor receptacle on the deck. Then I can supply power (Up to 2000 Watts) to any receptacle in the house. THE ONLY appliance I expect to feed is the refrigerator, and the furnace for Hot Water. (Showers).

Refrigerator, and Furnace. Nothing more. No Freezers, microwaves, electric stoves/ovens/TVs. If this works..I can add something else...until the generator trips out.

What do you think..?? NB

This is what you say now, but YOU WILL WANT to add more. It is not advisable to get any where near the top end of the generator as you could do damage to you appliances. Just my 2¢ for what it is worth.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by RLW

This is what you say now, but YOU WILL WANT to add more. It is not advisable to get any where near the top end of the generator as you could do damage to you appliances. Just my 2¢ for what it is worth.

Thank you RLW. I Will Say This AGAIN..Refridge and Furnace. I know MY limits..and the limits of my proposal. NB

[ITD]

The way you are proposing to do it is illegal and dangerous. You need a switch that locks out to prevent back feeding to the grid. Feeding into a normal receptacle means your cable would be bass ackwards. If you are handy, Lowe's sells a transfer switch that is relatively easy to install and should be legal. There are many safe solutions to this, what you propose is not safe and you need to think down the line where perhaps someone who didn't understand the issues tried to use your system when you weren't around.

[Winnisquamguy]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I just bought a Honda 2000i Generator with two 20 Amp 120 volt outlets. (Like your house outlets.) I'm thinking I can PULL (Turn Off) the Main 100 Amp breaker to the street, and back feed my generator IN ..to a normal weatherproof outdoor receptacle on the deck. Then I can supply power (Up to 2000 Watts) to any receptacle in the house. THE ONLY appliance I expect to feed is the refrigerator, and the furnace for Hot Water. (Showers).

Refrigerator, and Furnace. Nothing more. No Freezers, microwaves, electric stoves/ovens/TVs. If this works..I can add something else...until the generator trips out.

What do you think..?? NB

What size breaker is on your furnace? I think the generator is to small to run both if they kick on at the same time.I run cords and switch appliances.

[VitaBene]

Hi NB,

IMO, the best and most cost effective method is the panel interlock- so simple it makes other solutions look foolish (as long as you understand current draw (amps) in any way).

http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm

[brk-lnt]

Your original proposal is a cheap hack.

A small manual transfer switch is not expensive, and is very easy to wire in. Going the simple transfer switch route also gives you a very clear indication of when power is restored to your house, because your other lights/devices will come back to life.

Pulling or flipping the main breaker makes it much harder to know when power is fully restored (especially if it happens in the middle of the night), and increases the probability that you cause damage to yourself, your generator, or your appliances at some point. There is also the possibility that you injure a line worker, though it's much less likely.

If you don't understand the transfer switch concept, PM me and I can give you more info. Or, you're welcome to stop by my place (in Laconia) and I can show you how to wire it up.

[Blue Thunder]

NB,

Please don't think that we, as a group, are picking on you. Do yourself a favor and search for that thread we did a few months back. There are many different safe and inexpensive ways to do what you want to do but in my opinion, the one you suggest, is not one of them....

BT

[Rusty]

IMO all receptacles/outlets should have a "ONE WAY STREET-DO NOT ENTER" sign on them.

Why do you think they are called "outlets"?

[RLW]

NB, here is one of the great threads on the subject that will give you some wonderful tips on you endeavors with the generator. Hope it helps.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ght=generators

[NoBozo]

Thanks guys: I get it. Maybe three years ago, my main breaker panel was replaced because after 30+ years, ..my insurance company said it was dangerous. While the electrician was here, I asked him about transfer switches. He quoted me about $600. to add it on.

I have no problem with paying an electrician to do it. However, the transfer switch AND plug would be located just inside..OR outside the garage door....The main panel is just inside the door, so the generator wound have to be outside the door. Thats right on the street. Generator would disappear in a heartbeat...It's such a NICE little generator, expensive..and Very Quiet and VERY Portable.

The deck where I want to locate the generator is just outside the dining room french doors where I can keep an eye on it..and the deck is not accessible from the ground without a ladder.

Based on your input, I WILL look into other options. NB

PS: Now I'll go check out that other thread.

EDIT: I just finished the thread noted above. Very sobering. I've got a call in to the "Electrician" that replaced my old panel.

[brk-lnt]

It's also relatively easy to have the generator power input be remote from the transfer panel/switch. Depending on the distance, it would determine what gauge of wire you need.

So, you can have the generator on the back deck in operation, have a proper hook up outlet for it right there, and then have the transfer switch next to your main panel.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

It's also relatively easy to have the generator power input be remote from the transfer panel/switch. Depending on the distance, it would determine what gauge of wire you need.

So, you can have the generator on the back deck in operation, have a proper hook up outlet for it right there, and then have the transfer switch next to your main panel.

Because you only have @ 2000 watts to play with, this is something to think about if you place the inlet box too far away from the panel:

Voltage loss in a wire is synonymous to pressure loss in a pipe. Electric current flows in a wire, just like water in a pipe, and creates a loss. The loss is a function of:

The diameter of the wire - The smaller the diameter, the larger the loss.
The length of the wire - The longer the wire, the larger the loss.
The type of metal used in the wire - The higher the resistance, the larger the loss. Copper and Aluminum wires are the most common types, with copper having the lower resistance.

Voltage Loss is calculated using "OHM'S LAW", as follows:

E = IR

Where:
E is the Voltage Loss, in volts
I is the current flowing through the wire, in amperes
R is the resistance of the wire, in ohms

[jetskier]

First, the losses in the cable reduce the overall available power to load (as pointed out in the prior post). Second, the power goes to heat and too small gauged wire can be a fire hazard. The provided link gives you the resistance of various gauge wire over 1000 feet. Nominally, at 2000 watts the maximum current would be about 18 amps...round up to 20 amps.

Anything larger than 16 gauge will handle the current, but the resistance is 4 ohms. This means that the voltage (V=IR) would be reduced 80 volts across the cable and the power dissipation would be (P=VA) 1600 watts. Not a good day.

0 gauge has a resistance of .0983 ohms for 1000 feet and the voltage drop would be 2 volts, power loss would be 40 watts.

Clearly, you may not need 1000 feet and the numbers reduce proportionately with reduction in length.

I absolutely agree with the prior posts regarding the hookup. I had an electrician install a manual transfer switch. The switch allows me to decide what distribution to power. In addition, it guarantees that I will not back drive the grid and create a hazard for line crew etc... I picked up a 6500 troy built generator for about $900 which will keep my house reasonably covered.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...es/wirega.html

[NoBozo]

Based on Everyones input HERE..and the old thread on the same subject.. I decided NOT to do my Jury Rig. Today I returned my new Honda EU2000i for the Honda EU2000i "Companion" which has a 30 Amp 125 Volt Locking Connector.

My electrician does not like the 30 amp..125 volt (Twist Lock) output connector. He would prefer a 30 Amp 125/250 Volt connector. Something about phases. Above my paygrade. NOT available at 2000 watts.

My electrical contractor says he can Make It Work for $450/500...Hardware and Labor. I'm going with that. He's coming out Friday to have a look.

I could make my jury rig work..BUT...if I Croak..my wife would be left in the learch. She is not as mechanically/electrically competent as I am. Thanks guys: NB

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Because you only have @ 2000 watts to play with, this is something to think about if you place the inlet box too far away from the panel:

Voltage loss in a wire is synonymous to pressure loss in a pipe. Electric current flows in a wire, just like water in a pipe, and creates a loss. The loss is a function of:

The diameter of the wire - The smaller the diameter, the larger the loss.
The length of the wire - The longer the wire, the larger the loss.
The type of metal used in the wire - The higher the resistance, the larger the loss. Copper and Aluminum wires are the most common types, with copper having the lower resistance.

Voltage Loss is calculated using "OHM'S LAW", as follows:

E = IR

Where:
E is the Voltage Loss, in volts
I is the current flowing through the wire, in amperes
R is the resistance of the wire, in ohms

Having spent 20 years in the semiconductor industry as a repair tech then field service engineer before starting my own business it has been a long time since I've had to use or even heard ohms law mentioned.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

He would prefer a 30 Amp 125/250 Volt connector. Something about phases. Above my paygrade. NOT available at 2000 watts.

That is an inverter generator, and most of those only put out single phase, 120V AC.

For the type of transfer switch you'll likely end up with, I don't think a generator capable of 240VAC/dual phase would have made much difference in the wiring. Everything is still getting pulled over to a new sub-panel anyway.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My electrician does not like the 30 amp..125 volt (Twist Lock) output connector. He would prefer a 30 Amp 125/250 Volt connector. Something about phases. Above my paygrade. NOT available at 2000 watts.

I would seriously think about getting a bigger generator so that you can use a 30 amp 120/240 connector and then put it on your deck. I don't know how much voltage you would lose by putting it on your deck but I'm sure your electrician can calculate that out for you. The electrician should be able to do the hookup for the same price.

Anyway, glad that you are not going into an outlet (one way street) to get your electrical needs.

[SIKSUKR]

Electricity could care less which way it travels...to or from an outlet.The only concern is the amps(load) and the wire size.If your outlet circuit is a 20 amp breaker and the gen only puts out 20 then the protection will work just fine.The main concern I have with backfeeding through an outlet(and I've done it) is twofold.You need to make a suicide cord meaning having a plug on both ends.?The danger is obvious one if grabs on to the blades while the other end is energized.The other is backfeeding to the main grid.I backfeed directly to my main panel through a double pole breaker.I have since installed a simple device that won't let you turn that breaker on until the main is off.Very inexpensive and perfectly code acceptable.

[dpg]

Who makes the quietest generator? Anyone own a "quiet model" they're happy with? I have a neighbor in ma with a Home Depot special that could wake the dead.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Thank you RLW. I Will Say This AGAIN..Refridge and Furnace. I know MY limits..and the limits of my proposal. NB

We use a Honda 2000i to power the furnace, refrigerator, a few CFL lights and the computer system. The 2000i has no problem with this load and will run overnight on the econo mode.

The furnace is operated through a properly wired transfer switch.
http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Prod...il.aspx?TF151W
The other items are operated via extension cords.

The 2000i is very quiet.

[NoBozo]

Thanks Slickcraft for that link. I spent some time looking at the website. Very informative....Also.. that you have a Honda 2000i and it works fine for more stuff than I would have thought.

I'm looking at the Reliance 30114a Transfer Switch that can supply 4 circuits. I could wire the switch YOU have myself..BUT, but would not feel comfortable going beyond that. (enter An electricion) I would like to have the 4 circuit upgrade so my wife can do it on her own later...and get a couple more circuits.

I swapped my new Honda 2000i back for the 2000i "Companion" last weekend so I'm now committed to that. The "Companion" has ONE 30 Amp 125 Volt twist/lock conector (L5-30), and ONE 20Amp 125 volt (5-20)...Ie: a normal three prong plug that everyone is familiar with. The basic 2000i has TWO 5-20 connectors.

The 30114a ...4 circuit switch is the only one that has a L5-30 connector..and fits the relatively LOW output of the 2000i. NB

[VitaBene]

I would still feed it in through a 30A breaker with an interlock as noted in an earlier post. Then you can pick and choose what you want to run.

I am going with a 15KW PTO driven generator that will be powered by my Kubota L3430 tractor (35 HP at the engine around 30 at the PTO). I am so afraid of gas powered gensets with this ethanol gas we are getting now.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I would still feed it in through a 30A breaker with an interlock as noted in an earlier post. Then you can pick and choose what you want to run.

I am going with a 15KW PTO driven generator that will be powered by my Kubota L3430 tractor (35 HP at the engine around 30 at the PTO). I am so afraid of gas powered gensets with this ethanol gas we are getting now.

This is the way I've done it for 15 years. I have a 5000 watt and power the whole panel. I never shut any breakers off, I just don't use high consumption items like the oven/stove. I don't have an electric h2o heater so that helps but my shallow well pump, fridge, furnace and of course tv plus many lights works just fine. One outage I actually used my "set it and forget it" rotisserie to cook prime rib!

[Kamper]

I just found this tutorial on transfer switches. It's a series of instructional videos. I have not watched it all just peeked at the start of a couple sections.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Stre...Player_T1.aspx

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

This is the way I've done it for 15 years. I have a 5000 watt and power the whole panel. I never shut any breakers off, I just don't use high consumption items like the oven/stove. I don't have an electric h2o heater so that helps but my shallow well pump, fridge, furnace and of course tv plus many lights works just fine. One outage I actually used my "set it and forget it" rotisserie to cook prime rib!

My setup is the same, generator a bit bigger, 7500. Heat, hot water, stove and dryer are all gas so no really major power consumers. Worked great during the freak storm last November. We were out for a whole week and carried on almost like normal, except for the daily runs to the gas station for gas. My wife was even able to do laundry. We would shut the generator down at night out of respect for the neighbors.
My generator is not a Honda, but it does have a 319cc Honda motor. I wish I could find a replacement muffler that is quieter than the one it came with.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

... I wish I could find a replacement muffler...

Measure the output tube or any protrusion from the current exhaust. You may be able to find up/downsize tubes to attach it to a muffler at an auto-parts store.

[NoBozo]

I just saw a "Harbor Freight" ad for a 900 Watt gas generator for $89.99. How can you go wrong..? NB

[NoBozo]

I originally intended to switch OFF the MAIN feed breaker from the street and back feed the power from my generator into the house via a convenient receptacle. I was talked out of that. I Preferred to do the job right. So I called an electrician who I have used before. He didn't seem interested in the job. OH Well.

So much for my support of local business. I figured it wasn't any big deal. I'll figure it out IF it happens again..probably next decade....we rarely lose power here.

Today we had a freakin blizzard and the power went out for 19 hours. The temp outside was 22 F. The temp in the house went down to 48. The local weather said tonight (Sat) the temp outside would go down to 8 degrees. I'm getting desperate.

BEST.......I didn't want to do this..I Switched OFF the Main Breaker from the street and Back Fed the power from my 2000 watt Honda generator into the house. It worked..EXCEPT only to certain circuits. I WANTED the Furnace and the Fridge. NO deal. I got lights in some parts of the house but not the TWO appliances I wanted.

The work room where the furnace is, had lights....but the furnace didn't have power....different circuit I guess. I'm not an electrician.

GOOD NEWS: The power came back on about 4:30 this afternoon. Temp outside is NOW 18.1 and inside is NOW up to 63.7.

More thought required. NB

[ITD]

NB, this is similar to the switch I installed, if you are comfortable around the panel, it isn't that hard to install. The switch I have uses a remote receptacle that I have outside next to my garage. Check it out, but if you have any doubt, pay someone, it's not a big job.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Docu...structions.pdf

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by ITD

NB, this is similar to the switch I installed, if you are comfortable around the panel, it isn't that hard to install. The switch I have uses a remote receptacle that I have outside next to my garage. Check it out, but if you have any doubt, pay someone, it's not a big job.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Docu...structions.pdf

Thanks ITD: I'm familiar with Reliance and that panel. NB

[wifi]

I sincerely hope you were feeding a 220V receptacle, including neutral/ground. Otherwise, 220 appliances would feed the other leg of your breaker box, but series them, giving you varying voltage (depending on what appliances were on). I'm sure you are aware of this, but as an engineer, I just had to speak out

[gslpro]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I originally intended to switch OFF the MAIN feed breaker from the street and back feed the power from my generator into the house via a convenient receptacle. I was talked out of that.

BEST.......I didn't want to do this..I Switched OFF the Main Breaker from the street and Back Fed the power from my 2000 watt Honda generator into the house. It worked..EXCEPT only to certain circuits. I WANTED the Furnace and the Fridge. NO deal. I got lights in some parts of the house but not the TWO appliances I wanted.

Geez, there are a lot of opinionated people on this subject. NOBOZO, all you had to do is if your furnace doesn't work using that plug, you need to find an outlet that isn't powered up, and plug into that one to hit that side of the circuit. When you look at your circuit breaker panel. Row one would be side 1 of the line. Row two would be side 2. Row three would be side 1. Row four side 2. on and on. Each row(or side) is 110v. Your 220 breakers take up two rows. 110+110=220v. If you kill the main breaker, no chance of back feeding. My simple fix was that I had one outlet right next to the box. I wired in another next to that, on the next row or breakers. Now, I turn off the main breaker, and I turn off my 220v breakers. I then start my generator, plug the two outlets into the two outputs from the generator, and viola, I am in business throughout the whole house. My furnace runs fine, and my fridge, and deep freezer are on, and I can watch TV as well. When the fridge or furnace kicks on, it revs up the honda, but has no problem in keeping it all going.
The Honda 3000 is ultra quiet, and gives you an additional 1000 watts of power over the 2000. I wouldn't mind picking one up. The fuel usage is also a huge difference between the hondas and the big-framed units. I use 1-2 gallons to get 16 hours, vs. most generators that I have seen run 7-8 gallons for the same time. Figure that out for a long-duration event.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by gslpro

Geez, there are a lot of opinionated people on this subject. NOBOZO, all you had to do is if your furnace doesn't work using that plug, you need to find an outlet that isn't powered up, and plug into that one to hit that side of the circuit. When you look at your circuit breaker panel. Row one would be side 1 of the line. Row two would be side 2. Row three would be side 1. Row four side 2. on and on. Each row(or side) is 110v. Your 220 breakers take up two rows. 110+110=220v. If you kill the main breaker, no chance of back feeding. My simple fix was that I had one outlet right next to the box. I wired in another next to that, on the next row or breakers. Now, I turn off the main breaker, and I turn off my 220v breakers. I then start my generator, plug the two outlets into the two outputs from the generator, and viola, I am in business throughout the whole house. My furnace runs fine, and my fridge, and deep freezer are on, and I can watch TV as well. When the fridge or furnace kicks on, it revs up the honda, but has no problem in keeping it all going.
The Honda 3000 is ultra quiet, and gives you an additional 1000 watts of power over the 2000. I wouldn't mind picking one up. The fuel usage is also a huge difference between the hondas and the big-framed units. I use 1-2 gallons to get 16 hours, vs. most generators that I have seen run 7-8 gallons for the same time. Figure that out for a long-duration event.

So you made yourself up two "WidowMaker Cables"...if the first one doesn't get you the second one will.

However if you must do it that way then I suggest that you turn all the breakers off before starting your generator.
Then after you start your generator turn on the 120v breakers one at a time that you want to use.
That way you don't over load your generator if one of the circuits take an initial high surge.

[Mirror Lake's BB]

Originally Posted by gslpro

Geez, there are a lot of opinionated people on this subject. NOBOZO, all you had to do is if your furnace doesn't work using that plug, you need to find an outlet that isn't powered up, and plug into that one to hit that side of the circuit. When you look at your circuit breaker panel. Row one would be side 1 of the line. Row two would be side 2. Row three would be side 1. Row four side 2. on and on. Each row(or side) is 110v. Your 220 breakers take up two rows. 110+110=220v. If you kill the main breaker, no chance of back feeding. My simple fix was that I had one outlet right next to the box. I wired in another next to that, on the next row or breakers. Now, I turn off the main breaker, and I turn off my 220v breakers. I then start my generator, plug the two outlets into the two outputs from the generator, and viola, I am in business throughout the whole house. My furnace runs fine, and my fridge, and deep freezer are on, and I can watch TV as well. When the fridge or furnace kicks on, it revs up the honda, but has no problem in keeping it all going.
The Honda 3000 is ultra quiet, and gives you an additional 1000 watts of power over the 2000. I wouldn't mind picking one up. The fuel usage is also a huge difference between the hondas and the big-framed units. I use 1-2 gallons to get 16 hours, vs. most generators that I have seen run 7-8 gallons for the same time. Figure that out for a long-duration event.

Your description is confusing for those of us that know how a panel is laid out. Probably a foreign language for those that do not ("Row one would be side 1 of the line. Row two would be side 2. Row three would be side 1. Row four side 2. on and on. Each row(or side) is 110v. Your 220 breakers take up two rows." Huh??).

For simplicity, a row is horizontal and a column is vertical. The typical panel has two 110 v feeds; say Leg A and Leg B. Your Breaker "Space" Nos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, ... (as numbered/stamped on your panel) are fed by Leg A, B, B, A, A, B, B, A, ... So looking at the left side (column) of breaker spaces going top to bottom would be fed by Leg A, B, A, B, A, B, A, B, ...and the right side (column) of breaker spaces going top to bottom would be fed by Leg B, A, B, A, B, A, B, A, ... Basically, no adjacent breaker spaces (L/R, above/below) are fed from different legs. As can be seen, a 220 v breaker takes up two above/below spaces.

I'm just trying to clarify what gslpro is trying to describe. I'm fine with his discussion. Since I have a 220 v table saw in my shop, I just back feed my panel using that receptacle using a 220 v "widowmaker". My wires are sized such that my table saw breaker will adequately protect them. Something to consider if you're feeding through a 20 A 110 v breaker with a cord capable of only delivering 15 A, unless the generator has 15 A overload protection. If this is difficult to follow this, I suggest that you shouldn't be back feeding.

As RLW posted earlier, this link is innformative regarding backup generators:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ght=generators

Good luck.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Mirror Lake's BB

Your description is confusing for those of us that know how a panel is laid out. Probably a foreign language for those that do not ("Row one would be side 1 of the line. Row two would be side 2. Row three would be side 1. Row four side 2. on and on. Each row(or side) is 110v. Your 220 breakers take up two rows." Huh??).

For simplicity, a row is horizontal and a column is vertical. The typical panel has two 110 v feeds; say Leg A and Leg B. Your Breaker "Space" Nos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, ... (as numbered/stamped on your panel) are fed by Leg A, B, B, A, A, B, B, A, ... So looking at the left side (column) of breaker spaces going top to bottom would be fed by Leg A, B, A, B, A, B, A, B, ...and the right side (column) of breaker spaces going top to bottom would be fed by Leg B, A, B, A, B, A, B, A, ... Basically, no adjacent breaker spaces (L/R, above/below) are fed from different legs. As can be seen, a 220 v breaker takes up two above/below spaces.

I'm just trying to clarify what gslpro is trying to describe. I'm fine with his discussion. Since I have a 220 v table saw in my shop, I just back feed my panel using that receptacle using a 220 v "widowmaker". My wires are sized such that my table saw breaker will adequately protect them. Something to consider if you're feeding through a 20 A 110 v breaker with a cord capable of only delivering 15 A, unless the generator has 15 A overload protection. If this is difficult to follow this, I suggest that you shouldn't be back feeding.

As RLW posted earlier, this link is innformative regarding backup generators:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ght=generators

Good luck.

Your explanation of how Line A and Line B feed the rows of circuits is not correct.

gslpro was right when he said row one is fed by line 1, and row two is fed by line 2 etc.

I recommend you shouldn't do any work on your electrical panel until you understand how it is hooked up.

[AmantiDelLago]

Rusty, Mirror Lakes is correct. On one side of a panel every other breaker is fed by the same line. That is how you are able feed a 240 volt circuit on one side of the panel.

[ITD]

In this case a picture is worth a thousand rules, but I didn't even bother looking for one because the 100kb limit tucks it to me every time.....

[NoBozo]

Thanks guys for your input. My atitude is: You have ONE chance to get it Wrong. If you pick the wrong chance..YOU May be dead. I have done my own wireing in the house over 34 years...BUT This situation is different.

What you all are describing is Above my paygrade. AND I no longer trust contractors...what else is new...NB

[Mirror Lake's BB]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Your explanation of how Line A and Line B feed the rows of circuits is not correct.

gslpro was right when he said row one is fed by line 1, and row two is fed by line 2 etc.

I recommend you shouldn't do any work on your electrical panel until you understand how it is hooked up.

Rusty,

That is correct and glad you posted your response quickly for all those following. It has been some time since I took my front cover off my panel and my memory didn't do me any favors. But there is a reason I got confused (age also has something to do with it). I check this anytime I would do work at my panel and should have verified this prior to posting. But I rushed in order to make dinner; baked crow. I apologize to all.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Mirror Lake's BB

Rusty,

That is correct and glad you posted your response quickly for all those following. It has been some time since I took my front cover off my panel and my memory didn't do me any favors. But there is a reason I got confused (age also has something to do with it). I check this anytime I would do work at my panel and should have verified this prior to posting. But I rushed in order to make dinner; baked crow. I apologize to all.

No problem. I think most people think that a panel is wired the way you explained it. I really don't know why, but they do.

NoBozo,
If I was your neighbor I would hook up a single circuit transfer switch to your panel for you...no charge...I have one kicking around in my garage. I say single circuit because you only have a 2000w generator. They are made to hook to your furnace but I can hook it to your panel to feed the line that your furnace is on.



http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...Fcme4Aod0yYAwA

[ApS]

Originally Posted by dpg

Who makes the quietest generator? Anyone own a "quiet model" they're happy with? I have a neighbor in ma with a Home Depot special that could wake the dead.

A family member has an RV with a very quiet generator—runs it all night long—yet it has NO muffler!

Upon setting up, he takes a straight pipe, attaches it onto the exhaust and runs it straight up above the roofline of his RV. The only noise is the normal operating sounds of the engine.

[sky's]

Originally Posted by camp guy

This subject was discussed a t l e n g t h a while back, during the days that CateP was posting a lot about moving the NH and buying a house. The subject of generators was extensively discussed, covering every aspect of generators. As I recollect, the overiding tone of the discussions was that generators present too many potential problems, and generally speaking, a homeowner ought to be extremely wary of doing the wiring themselves - leave it to a licensed electrician and check with the local Code Enforcement Officer about specifics. Safety is the absolute overiding criteria to be aware of.

Good luck.

very well put!!!

[SIKSUKR]

This is not rocket science people. If your generator can supply 220/240 volts then it is a very easy connection. I use a double pole breaker just like all of you have in your panel. I have a twist lock receptacle next to my panel that is fed from that breaker. My cord goes to my gen and to the recep. Simply keep that breaker in the off position, start your generator, turn off your main breaker and turn on the double pole to that receptacle. Viola, your whole panel is energized. If you have a large load like an electric h2o heater or the like then shut that off at the panel. In my case my hot water is from my boiler and the only other real loads are from my shallow well pump and my fridge. I never shut any breakers off and my 5000 watt works fantastic for the following...Water pump, fridge, boiler, large screen tv's and any lights I need.

[Mirror Lake's BB]

SIKSUKR

I don't want to eat crow again but I believe you meant 220/240 "volts". If I'm wrong on this, I'll have to hand in my forum permit privileges.

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

This is not rocket science people. If your generator can supply 220/240 amps then it is a very easy connection. I use a double pole breaker just like all of you have in your panel. I have a twist lock receptacle next to my panel that is fed from that breaker. My cord goes to my gen and to the recep. Simply keep that breaker in the off position, start your generator, turn off your main breaker and turn on the double pole to that receptacle. Viola, your whole panel is energized. If you have a large load like an electric h2o heater or the like then shut that off at the panel. In my case my hot water is from my boiler and the only other real loads are from my shallow well pump and my fridge. I never shut any breakers off and my 5000 watt works fantastic for the following...Water pump, fridge, boiler, large screen tv's and any lights I need.

Nope, not rocket science, but if you don't have the type of switch on your panel that only allows juice to feed from either the street or the generator, then your setup is illegal and dangerous. I trust you left that detail out of your description of your setup, right?

[SIKSUKR]

Sorry on the volts. As you can see I'm not a rocket scientist. Folks, it really is a very simple install. I now have a very plain plate that I made which doesn't allow you to energize the panel until you shut the main breaker off. Totally legit and to code.
Check the photo out on this website and you'll see how simple they are.
http://www.interlockkit.com/?gclid=C...FUKd4AodnmQAmg

[Rusty]

I installed a 6 circuit manual transfer switch primarily for ease of use by my wife. I clearly marked the six circuits on the transfer switch so that my wife knows what will be powered. She only has to flip the switches from “Line” to “Gen”. Also she doesn't have to touch the main panel at all to throw the mains or shut off undesired circuits. It couldn't be simpler for her, and that makes it more likely for her to use the generator if I’m not around.
I gave my wife the choice of an interlock or transfer switch and she picked the transfer switch.

Personally I like the interlock kit because you can power your whole house with it if you have a big enough generator.

One thing to remember is that with the interlock kit you have to make circuit 2 and 4 dedicated for the kit which means you have to have space available for the kit.

[tis]

You COULD have made it easier for her, Rusty. You could have had it transfer itself over automatically like mine does for me. I don't have to touch anything.

[Mirror Lake's BB]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

Nope, not rocket science, but if you don't have the type of switch on your panel that only allows juice to feed from either the street or the generator, then your setup is illegal and dangerous. I trust you left that detail out of your description of your setup, right?

I always wanted to throw this out; is something like this "illegal" if it just isn't per code? Illegal, really? I'm just throwing this out. Just an honest question.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Mirror Lake's BB

I always wanted to throw this out; is something like this "illegal" if it just isn't per code? Illegal, really? I'm just throwing this out. Just an honest question.

Yes, illegal per code, dangerous and huge liability should it kill someone. Essentially what this type of transfer switch does is make the choice of source either-or, basically foolproof. Whereas some of the setups described here will allow you to select both sources, the power company and generator at the same time. This could be disastrous for a number of reasons, first and foremost a lineman working to repair the wiring outside could be killed.

[HellRaZoR004]

In order to make it 'legal' by means of back-feeding the panel (as most are describing above) you need something along these lines...



Available at:
http://www.interlockkit.com/

To be honest, unless you go all out and get an automatic switchover generator, I wouldn't do anything else...including the pricey panels which only provide like 6 or so circuits.

The aforementioned concept is really easy to install and works well. However keep in mind that many of the portable generators on the market are not suited for use with sensitive electronics. I know of many furnaces with fancy circuits boards being fried because the generator output is not clean enough.

[Mirror Lake's BB]

Originally Posted by ITD

Yes, illegal per code, dangerous and huge liability should it kill someone. Essentially what this type of transfer switch does is make the choice of source either-or, basically foolproof. Whereas some of the setups described here will allow you to select both sources, the power company and generator at the same time. This could be disastrous for a number of reasons, first and foremost a lineman working to repair the wiring outside could be killed.

Only half of your first sentence is relevant to my question; "Illegal per code". Does breaking the code make it "illegal" is my question. I guess you are implying, or stating, yes it is illegal by code. You could save the rest.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Rusty

No problem. I think most people think that a panel is wired the way you explained it. I really don't know why, but they do.

NoBozo,
If I was your neighbor I would hook up a single circuit transfer switch to your panel for you...no charge...I have one kicking around in my garage. I say single circuit because you only have a 2000w generator. They are made to hook to your furnace but I can hook it to your panel to feed the line that your furnace is on.



http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...Fcme4Aod0yYAwA

My Furnace is "Hard Wired". I'm looking at this box...I would prefer more than one circuit..for other things....BUT..I LIKE the use of the Common Extension cord ....so I can Switch Around to other appliances that need attention...with a long ...probably 50 feet. (Common) extension cord. Labor intensive..Yes....It's NOT automatic. NB

EDIT: This box would ONLY serve the furnace. The Common extention cord would allow me to serve other appliences...one at a time..as required.

[Kamper]

I now have one of those single circuits transfers on my furnace. It was a breeze to install. I actually mounted it near my furnace because it's 1/2 way between my breaker box and the access for my emergency power. I have been told it's supposed to be next to the circuit breaker box so if I ever sell, I'll remove it to avoid making anyone nervous.

Before that, I used a cut-out with a plug end. When I need it I popped the breaker and disconnected the feed at the furnace switch and tied in the cut-out instead of the main feed. I even had it all set up to go in a junction box so I wouldn't have to remember where I put anything. The only thing on that circuit is the furnace and I understand that's the recommended way to hook it up.

Everything else gets extension cords but my house is so small it's not a hardship. I may eventually get fancier but I am comfortable working at this level.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Mirror Lake's BB

Only half of your first sentence is relevant to my question; "Illegal per code". Does breaking the code make it "illegal" is my question. I guess you are implying, or stating, yes it is illegal by code. You could save the rest.

Unfortunately the rest can't be said enough as evidenced by some posts in this thread.

Sometimes illegal, or even work done not per code or even a professional standard can have consequences far beyond a fine from the government. There are no code police running around randomly inspecting electrical panels, so someone could easily get away with taking the cheap way out and never get caught. Unfortunately people who do it this way put their family and other people's family members (linemen to name one) at risk. Not worth it in my humble opinion.

[Mirror Lake's BB]

Originally Posted by ITD

Unfortunately the rest can't be said enough as evidenced by some posts in this thread.

Sometimes illegal, or even work done not per code or even a professional standard can have consequences far beyond a fine from the government. There are no code police running around randomly inspecting electrical panels, so someone could easily get away with taking the cheap way out and never get caught. Unfortunately people who do it this way put their family and other people's family members (linemen to name one) at risk. Not worth it in my humble opinion.

It just seems that the word is thrown around a bit (my goodness, I'm going to get arrested and cuffed!). I guess if it isn't by code it is technically illegal. Kind of like installing a grounding receptacle in a non grounded circuit; illegal. I just prefer to use "not by code".

As far as your continued discussion regarding the dangers especially to others like linemen, I agree but didn't think it was necessary as a response to my question. It certainly is a post worthy on its own.

[SIKSUKR]

I don't know how anything except an auto transfer switch with an auto start gen could be easier than what I described.Post #54 shows exactly the same photo and link that I provided.You only need to switch the main off and switch the gen breaker on.What the heck could be simpler?Some people over think and over react simple concepts.

[WINNOCTURN]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Your explanation of how Line A and Line B feed the rows of circuits is not correct.

gslpro was right when he said row one is fed by line 1, and row two is fed by line 2 etc.

I recommend you shouldn't do any work on your electrical panel until you understand how it is hooked up.

What you are talking about are the 2 side of a Breaker LINE and LOAD. Line (L1 & L2)is the Voltage from the Street, Single Phase 220V (Generator), Load is the side that the Breaker is sending to the equipment.

I use an Interlock on my panel and it works fine. You can power up the key circuits needed to "weather" the Storm. When laying out the breaker configuration you want to balance the "load" as evenly on L1 and L2. You can see this on the PANEL layout as to how the Furnace is on L1 and the Refrigerator is on L2. Out side of the Well Pump these are the most important Items to have working.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

What you are talking about are the 2 side of a Breaker LINE and LOAD. Line (L1 & L2)is the Voltage from the Street, Single Phase 220V (Generator), Load is the side that the Breaker is sending to the equipment.

I use an Interlock on my panel and it works fine. You can power up the key circuits needed to "weather" the Storm. When laying out the breaker configuration you want to balance the "load" as evenly on L1 and L2. You can see this on the PANEL layout as to how the Furnace is on L1 and the Refrigerator is on L2. Out side of the Well Pump these are the most important Items to have working.

In the PANEL layout pdf file I see your furnace on L2 and your Refrigerator on L1.

Nice job with the PANEL layout on a pdf file, it explains L1 and L2 very well.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Thanks Slickcraft for that link. I spent some time looking at the website. Very informative....Also.. that you have a Honda 2000i and it works fine for more stuff than I would have thought.

I'm looking at the Reliance 30114a Transfer Switch that can supply 4 circuits. I could wire the switch YOU have myself..BUT, but would not feel comfortable going beyond that. (enter An electricion) I would like to have the 4 circuit upgrade so my wife can do it on her own later...and get a couple more circuits.

I swapped my new Honda 2000i back for the 2000i "Companion" last weekend so I'm now committed to that. The "Companion" has ONE 30 Amp 125 Volt twist/lock conector (L5-30), and ONE 20Amp 125 volt (5-20)...Ie: a normal three prong plug that everyone is familiar with. The basic 2000i has TWO 5-20 connectors.

The 30114a ...4 circuit switch is the only one that has a L5-30 connector..and fits the relatively LOW output of the 2000i. NB

Did you ever end up getting the 30114a Transfer Switch?

I think the Honda 2000i Companion would work OK with this Transfer Switch.

You have probably already viewed this video about how to hook it up, but if not then take a look at it and you will see that it is easy to do: http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Stre...Player_T1.aspx

I think if a Monkey watched the video he could do it...Maybe.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

What you all are describing is Above my paygrade. AND I no longer trust contractors...what else is new...NB

Generators are also discussed here:
http://winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14574

Still another way derives from a two-year-old discussion that shows that in the very near future, your electric car can be your home's generator for a couple of days—or with a hybrid vehicle—as long as you have gas (or propane) in the tank.




The photograph shows what the charging station looks like in your carpeted garage.

But sales are off for the all-electric Nissan Leaf, so a price-drop of $6000 was announced two months ago. The "newest-news", however, is a rumor that Nissan is planning on dropping the battery-only vehicle altogether.

That latest blurb is tainted only by the fact that the "info" originated from America's largest exporter of US-made vehicles—BMW.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Did you ever end up getting the 30114a Transfer Switch?

I think the Honda 2000i Companion would work OK with this Transfer Switch.

You have probably already viewed this video about how to hook it up, but if not then take a look at it and you will see that it is easy to do: http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Stre...Player_T1.aspx

I think if a Monkey watched the video he could do it...Maybe.

Now I watched the videos, all of them, and agree it looks pretty easy. I had the audio off, so as not to disturb someone who was watching TV 5 ft away from me. One thing I noticed is that whenever wire nuts were installed, they were not secured by electrical tape. I thought that was a given. Or perhaps they said to secure it with tape, and I missed it by having the volume off.

I must agree that even with my great fear, even I would feel confident in performing this installation. Thanks for sharing.

Oh, and it looks like the model in the video was the 30216a with an MSRP of about $380 vs $200 for the 30114a

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

One thing I noticed is that whenever wire nuts were installed, they were not secured by electrical tape. I thought that was a given.

Electrical tape has almost no use in proper installations. A roll of tape will last a good technician his entire career (OK, maybe a bit of an over-exaggeration).

But, no, you do not tape wire nuts.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

Now I watched the videos, all of them, and agree it looks pretty easy. I had the audio off, so as not to disturb someone who was watching TV 5 ft away from me. One thing I noticed is that whenever wire nuts were installed, they were not secured by electrical tape. I thought that was a given. Or perhaps they said to secure it with tape, and I missed it by having the volume off.

I must agree that even with my great fear, even I would feel confident in performing this installation. Thanks for sharing.

Oh, and it looks like the model in the video was the 30216a with an MSRP of about $380 vs $200 for the 30114a

The code states to attach the wire nuts per the manufacturer's specifications. Taping is not a requirement but some people will do it anyway. I always put tape on outlet and switch wire nuts. Sometimes when you put them back inside the box they have a tendency to loosen up and the tape helps to prevent that.
The 30114a is 4 circuit and the 30116a is 6 circuit. Hence the 4 and 6 at the end of the number.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Rusty

The code states to attach the wire nuts per the manufacturer's specifications. Taping is not a requirement but some people will do it anyway. I always put tape on outlet and switch wire nuts. Sometimes when you put them back inside the box they have a tendency to loosen up and the tape helps to prevent that.
The 30114a is 4 circuit and the 30116a is 6 circuit. Hence the 4 and 6 at the end of the number.

If your wire nuts loosen up, then you're installing them wrong. Tape isn't solving the problem, it's just masking poor quality work.

Electrical tape is notorious for shrinking over time or with heat, and loosing its stick. You come back to a gooey mess if you need to service the work later.

When was the last time you looked at the work of a professional electrician and saw taped wire nuts?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Did you ever end up getting the 30114a Transfer Switch?

I think the Honda 2000i Companion would work OK with this Transfer Switch.

You have probably already viewed this video about how to hook it up, but if not then take a look at it and you will see that it is easy to do: http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Stre...Player_T1.aspx

I think if a Monkey watched the video he could do it...Maybe.

Where's my Banana..?? NB

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Rusty

When I finished my basement I did all of the electrical work and every place that I put a wire nut has tape around the bottom of it. I even put tape on the ceiling lights, fan, and junction box wire nuts.

I also attached the wires together just below the bare part with a piece of tape before I put the wire nuts on.

When the code cop inspected it he said that I did a good job.

However I didn't put any tape on the wire nuts in the circuit panel when I ran wire from there to the room or when I hooked up my transfer switch. Maybe I should have come to think of it.

Now I have to go buy NoBozo some banana's because I think I convinced him that monkey's can do house wiring.

I think this is the same switch..with a NEW name and number. It was back ordered last month. NOW it's available. NB

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/Prod...il.aspx?TF151W

EDIT: I just ordered it: AMAZON: $69.99.

Watch out for Rusty: He's PUSHY...

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Rusty

When the code cop inspected it he said that I did a good job.

It's not against code, it's just (generally) a sign of amateur/DIY work.

[SIKSUKR]

Yout wire nuts should never loosen up by just bending wires and stuffing them in the box.Scary stuff.This should tell you that your not installing them properly.First,make sure both(or 3)(no more than 3) of the wires are stripped the same length and will be encased in the nut after tightening.Have them all nice and straight and all standing right next to each other and especially,have all the ends at the same position.Twist your nut while firmly holding all the wires and don't let go of the wires until your have the nut pretty secure.Twist it as hard as you can by hand until the wires actually start to twist.A couple electricians I know will actually finish twisting larger gauge (12,10 and up) with lineman pliers.Lastly,pull on all each wire
to see if it stays connected.I've had a more than a few pull out when I thought they were tight.That loose wire is exactly what you don't want and this is an easy check to see that they are securely fastened.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

It's not against code, it's just (generally) a sign of amateur/DIY work.

OK, you win.

[KDL]

If you twist enough wire nuts, you can usually feel a bad connection. Either the wire nut will feel tight sooner than it should or it will not tighten. In either case, take the connection apart and remake it. There is really no need to tape a properly made connection.

[NoBozo]

The transfer switch came in today from Amazon. The three prong recessed (male) recepticle was seperate and not installed in the transfer switch box. The instructions regarding this were non existant.

Inside the box were three pigtails..stripped on the ends: Black, White and Green that are intended to be wired to the back of the male recessed three prong recepticle which will be installed in the front of the box.

SO: Obviously the Green wire is Ground. and can be inserted into the Green terminal in the back of the three prong recessed recepticle. What about the Black and White pigtails..?? Which color (B or W) goes on "which flat blade" .. of the male (Recessed) three prong recepticle..??

Monkey wants another banana. NB

[wifi]

In AC systems, white is neutral and goes to the wider prong and black is hot and goes to the smaller prong.

[Irrigation Guy]

Usually there is a gold terminal and a silver terminal. Black goes to the gold terminal if there is one.

[Rusty]

the brass screw is for the hot wire (black) and silver screw is for the neutral wire (white).

[NoBozo]

No Silver or Gold terminals on the Leviton connector supplied with the transfer switch. Just the Green. NB

EDIT: See post #85.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

No Silver or Gold terminals on the Leviton connector supplied with the transfer switch. Just the Green. NB

The below example will be for your inlet. Your blades are probably the same size and one might be gold and the other silver. If they are then hook the black wire to the gold blade. If not then the white wire goes to the right when the ground terminal is at the top as shown:

[Happy Gourmand]

Some good advice here...and some bad advice too. How do you choose?
Best advice....mount all the hardware, run all the wires...then call a licensed electrician to make the final connections. Could end up being the best $100 or so you spend.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Rusty

The below example will be for your inlet. Your blades are probably the same size and one might be gold and the other silver. If they are then hook the black wire to the gold blade. If not then the white wire goes to the right when the ground terminal is at the top as shown:

Looking head on at the prongs....with the ground on the top, my white wire is on the left as shown on your illustration. NB

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Looking head on at the prongs....with the ground on the top, my white wire is on the left as shown on your illustration. NB

You are correct.

[NoBozo]

Thanks guys for the input. I had a closer look this morning. There ARE Gold and Silver terminals. Everything checks out. It's wired correctly. NB

Here is the recepticle used.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Produ...minisite=10251