Castle's tax-exempt status?

[fatlazyless]

Today's July 28 Meredith News, which is a weekly that comes out on Thursdays and costs 75-cents, has an article down in the lower corner of its' front page: (Moultonboro) "Selectmen weigh Castle's tax-exempt status" by Erin Plummer.

It's all about the Castle in the Clouds historic preservation and restoration recent reconstruction and mentions its' educational programs with the local schools. No decisions have been made yet, and the Moultonborough Board of Selectmen will take it up again at their meeting on August 4.

Pretty interesting article, and I couldn not figure a way to make a working link to it, so maybe someone with some better 'puter skills than me could do that?

[songkrai]

I think on current editions one has to have a paid subscription to view articles. Not sure though.

Most towns provide tax-exempt status to not for profits. I am no tax expert though.

I don't know who owns the Castle in the Clouds currently but I think it is a not for profit organization.

Why the town has singled out this one I am not sure.

If the owners of the Castle in the Clouds meet state standards for a not for profit then I don't see any issues.

Maybe others can chime in.

[VitaBene]

It is owned by Lake Region Conservation Trust http://www.lrct.org/

[fatlazyless]

It's a pretty safe bet there will some other newspaper coverage on this in the next few days from either The Citizen, or The LaDaSun, or someone will just post the story from the Meredith News.

Here's a couple points from Erin Plummer's article in today's July 28 Meredith News that I can recall from memory now. The newspaper went out with the trash earlier today.

According to a spokesperson from the Lakes Region Conservation Trust, the newly renovated Castle in the Clouds will become one of the most treasured go-to venues in New Hampshire what with its location, views, historical building restoration and future musical-cultural-historical-artistic-educational & intellectual events to be held up there.

The article mentions that when the property was owned by the late Paul Sticht, it was one of the largest property tax payers in the town.

It sounds like the M-Boro Board of Selectmen are just starting to take a look-see and are all keeping an open mind on this item.

Probably, the nearby 5000+ acres with five or six different mountains known as the ossipee mountain range is a separate property from the Castle in the Clouds property.

[Jonas Pilot]

Does anybody remember that the previous owners were threatening to developed the whole property? It would have looked like a monstrous Gunstock Acres.

[Belmont Resident]

I know that the Lakes Region Conservation bought it with a lot of support from the local snowmobile clubs and they supposedly promised to keep all the trails open. Well they shut them all down then after an uproar they opened a fraction of the snowmobile trails.
We had supported them but after that I wouldn’t give them or Castle in the clouds a dime.
Besides don’t they advertise fine dining? Can you be none profit and have a restaurant that makes money.

[Jonas Pilot]

Maybe the restaurant helps pay the bills.

[nj2nh]

The restaurant does help pay the bills. There are plenty of non-profits that have profit-making aspects, like dining, to cover costs. The Metropolitan Museun in NYC, for example, has several restaurants and they are non-profit.

My sister-in-law went up to the castle this week. They are doing an amazing job saving the building. It isn't just a matter of status quo. The place is, in many respects, falling apart. You can see it from the outside if you just look.

The views are spectacular. The history in really interesting. I have been going up there for most of my life, every year or two or so. It is worth the money. They are bringing lots of clothes, furniture and other little things back into the building. The whole project must be very costly and very worthwhile.

I wouldn't discount making the trip just because you were put off by the whole ski-mobile thing. After all, owners should be able to do whatever they want with their property. I wouldn't want snowmobilers on my land either. Besides, the insurance on that place must be exhorbitant. If someone were to get injured on a trail inside their property line while on a snowmobile, you know full well who they would sue - the Castle owners. So, you might understand why they would be leary of letting snow-mobilers on the property.

[Irrigation Guy]

Readers beware, misinformation is present in a few of the posts above in regard to snowmobiling. I do not care to get into an arguement here but am thankful for the relationship the exists between the LRCT and the local snowmobiling community.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The snowmobile situation is pretty much a forgotten problem at this point. The LRCT and their very unpopular director at the time, Tom Curren, went out of his way to make a lot of enemies, including snowmoblers. FYI, the landowners who permit snowbilers are covered by insurance provided by the state.

The continuing unresolved issue with the LRCT referred to in the newspaper article is simply a question of should a tax exempt entity make some sort of PILOT, payment in lieu of taxes, to a town to cover some of the costs a town incurs for providing services to the tax exempt entity. Moultonboro has many that make such payments. The churches in Center Harbor all voluntarily pay town taxes whereas the LRCT which has it's offices in Center Harbor has refused to pay anything.

Many people feel that the LRCT should pay something in view of the fact that they have removed many properties from the tax rolls. In the case of Moultonboro the LRCT and it's related entities own property assessed at approximately $18,000,000. At current tax rates this represents a loss to the town of around $160,000.

Based on the newspaper article the LRCT is making money; therefore, is there any reason they should not make some sort of token PILOT to cover town expenses such as calls by police and fire departments to the Castle.

[Breakwater]

IMO-When they wanted snowmobilers to donate to their cause they were less than honest with their position on the trail use. They may have a right to use it/ regulate it as they want now...I hope M'boro sticks it to them!!

I have lost all respect for the LRCT. I believe they have taken the original membership's mission and taken it to a radical extreme. Just my $.02.

[Belmont Resident]

I had gotten my info from someone heavily involved with snowmobiling in the area and I would hate to think I was posting such strong negative feelings towards LRCT and be incorrect.
I personally am not a NH snowmobiler even though we live here, but have been heavily involved and worked countless hours for clubs in Maine.

[CrawfordCentury]

Originally Posted by Jonas Pilot

Maybe the restaurant helps pay the bills.

Yep. The Castle Preservation Society's Form 990 is available for public viewing. Of the $1.23M in 2010 revenue, only about a third was gate admissions. The cafe did $263k, events accounted for $224k, and the gift shop was about $92k. Presumably, gifts, grants, and memberships account for the remainder.

Expenses were just north of $1M

I would presume that they have some sort of investment policy that would direct how any net revenue be managed. Gotta figure they have an endowment that would ensure the continued preservation of the site - and help weather an off yer or two if expenses outstripped revenue.

The 990 document is available for public viewing
at http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/270/270085747/270085747_201003_990.pdf

[Senter Cove Guy]

5 = employees
$409,119 = Salaries, other compensation, employee benefits (Part IX, column
(A), lines 5-10)

$81,824 = Avg per employee

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I understand there are 2 people who have a base salary in excess of $100,000. Not bad in a poor economy. It's this sort of practice that makes people wonder why they can't be more supportive of the towns where they own so much real estate.

[jrc]

There's good money to be made in charity.

[tis]

Originally Posted by jrc

There's good money to be made in charity.

That's the problem I have with these charities. Remember when Elizabeth Dole ran for president and she was making 13 million as head of the Red Cross? And then they want to take all the property away from the towns and not pay taxes????

[fatlazyless]

Looking through a good set of binoculars from the Town of Gilford's Lincoln Park located on Lake Winnipesaukee, you can see very well the Castle in the Clouds and the adjoining 5000-acres ossipee mountain range from a distance of about ten miles. Maybe someone wants to run over to Lincoln Park this morning and make a real good, high resolution photograph and have it posted here by noon........anyone?

It would be nice to have a photo of the Castle here.

.......

Some Winnipesaukee waterfront summer camps pay regular property taxes, and some do not? Camp Winnaukee in Moultonborough is reported to pay full property taxes.

Camp Monotomy, a no longer operating girl scout camp owned by the Girl Scouts of Massachusetts is reported to pay no property tax and it has been closed for about eight years. It gets very light use for about two weeks per year with its' Whispering Pines program. If those pines could talk, you know what they would say.....they would be whispering.....pssstttt.....hey lookie here.....what a great deal.....all this land, waterfront and hundred year old trees......zero taxes.....and just one black bear for a year round resident......SUCH-A-DEAL....whisper.....whisper......whisper!

The Appalachian Mountain Club's Three Mile Island Camp is reported to pay $20,000/year as a payment in lieu of taxes to the Town of Meredith which is just peanuts compared to what Three Mile Island would be paying as a whole were it to be subdivided into one acre waterfront lots.

.....

If the Castle were to pay property tax then how much would it be paying and how much would that be impacting it mission as an historic and educational venue?

.....

Here's a thought just for laughs: What the town needs is some type of a reverse tax where the Town of Moultonborough pays a reverse tax out to its residents. Just looking at the town buildings and town salaries, it appears that the town definitely goes first class!

[Sal]

Here it is, with lower Carriage House, on 3/18/11.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by Senter Cove Guy

5 = employees
$409,119 = Salaries, other compensation, employee benefits (Part IX, column
(A), lines 5-10)

$81,824 = Avg per employee

Deduct for fed tax, FICA, health insurance, state unemployment insurance, and the 81 K is closer to 50 K for the employee to then go out and spread the wealth.

[webmaster]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

It would be nice to have a photo of the Castle here.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/index.php?pageid=castle

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

According to a spokesperson from the Lakes Region Conservation Trust, the newly renovated Castle in the Clouds will become one of the most treasured go-to venues in New Hampshire what with its location, views, historical building restoration and future musical-cultural-historical-artistic-educational intellectual events to be held up there.


It sounds like the M-Boro Board of Selectmen are just starting to take a look-see and are all keeping an open mind on this item.

FLL thanks for including what you could remember form the article.

My guess is the reason for looking and evaluating the tax exempt status of the property, is for the text a have highlighted in bold. If they are going to start using the land for more then a tourist attraction, and the occasional car show etc. Then the land is essentially being used for a profit making enterprise. My guess is the town is looking at the aspects if there are decent revenues being made from events being held on the property, for which the town is responsible for providing emergency services for if something happens, That the town should be compensated. I am all for providing tax shelters for organization, that are working on a non-profit model. However if they turn a piece of property into a money making enterprise hold events on a regular basis... then that part of the non-profit organization, becomes a profitable entity, and should be made to come out from under the tax-shelter.

I have always had an issue with the LRCT, as I believed when they took over the Caslte they had motives to start engaging in more profitable endeavors. I am not saying that I don't think they aren't still trying to preserve valuable areas. But I am saying that I believe they are trying to make their non-profit a bit more profitable. And this I believe in a case like this, LRCT if they intend to make the Castle a profitable part of the trust, should have to pull the Castle out from underneath the non-profit wing, and run it as a profitable enterprise.

[neckdweller]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Some Winnipesaukee waterfront summer camps pay regular property taxes, and some do not? Camp Winnaukee in Moultonborough is reported to pay full property taxes.

Camp Monotomy, a no longer operating girl scout camp owned by the Girl Scouts of Massachusetts is reported to pay no property tax and it has been closed for about eight years. It gets very light use for about two weeks per year with its' Whispering Pines program. If those pines could talk, you know what they would say.....they would be whispering.....pssstttt.....hey lookie here.....what a great deal.....all this land, waterfront and hundred year old trees......zero taxes.....and just one black bear for a year round resident......SUCH-A-DEAL....whisper.....whisper......whisper!

The Appalachian Mountain Club's Three Mile Island Camp is reported to pay $20,000/year as a payment in lieu of taxes to the Town of Meredith which is just peanuts compared to what Three Mile Island would be paying as a whole were it to be subdivided into one acre waterfront lots.

I don't believe Camp Winaukee has nonprofit status and at $10K per camper their revenue is roughly $3.7MM from tuition. I highly doubt they're paying their full tax burden out of the goodness of their hearts.

Up the street is nonprofit Camp Techumseh which is a "bargain" at $6,800 (camper revenue of about $1.1MM). They do not pay property taxes but I believe they do pay some amount in lieu of taxes.

5 = employees
$409,119 = Salaries, other compensation, employee benefits (Part IX, column
(A), lines 5-10)

$81,824 = Avg per employee

If a camp/private school/organization can obey the laws and restrictions of nonprofit status, I don't really see anything a town can do about collecting taxes. One of those restrictions is the payment of "reasonable" salaries. You couldn't pay the person operating the Castle $500K because that is not reasonable given their responsibilities but $100K wouldn't be out of the question.

[fatlazyless]

http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.com/

Coverage on last night's August 4 Moultonborough selectman debate on the Castle's tax exempt status does not seem to be in any of the local newspapers today? HELLO!.......did anybody attend the selectman's debate in Moultonborough last night?

Audio-video from July 21 meeting: http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.co...servation.html ..... click on '19:50 of part one' ...

[CrawfordCentury]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.com/

Coverage on last night's August 4 Moultonborough selectman debate on the Castle's tax exempt status does not seem to be in any of the local newspapers today? HELLO!.......did anybody attend the selectman's debate in Moultonborough last night?

Audio-video from July 21 meeting: http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.co...servation.html ..... click on '19:50 of part one' ...

That was a good piece. At issue is approx. $69k in revenue were there to be a status change - about .003% of the town's $22M annual budget.

This would be bad for the Castle in donor relations, too. There was some earlier discussion hereabout questionable expenditures by nonprofits. Donors are turned off by this stuff. Likewise, a donor or donor prospect may reconsider having the knowledge that their gift will possibly used to pay town taxes and not invested in program support. There's the potential that a vicious cycle develops: the nonprofit needs more cash to fund nonprogram expenditures. Donors don't like subsidizing town coffers thru their philanthropic activity. Less revenue comes in, operating costs go up. Oh yeah, and there's the need to maintain the property and do the actual work of preservation. That gets backburnered. Place starts to look shabby and offers less of an experience to visitors. So thru the gate and resturant revenue decreases.

Doubt that it will come to this. Given the historical and present relationship with Bald Peak, I gotta think that the town of M'boro would be in for one helluva fight if they poke that hornet's nest too hard.

From the article, there seems to be a gracious way to address this:

I would like to see the Castle Preservation Society offer taxpayers of Moultonboro free access to the facilities, and discounts on the services offered, as a way to demonstrate good faith towards the community that supports it. I think that's a fair compromise.
The discussion will continue at the Thursday August 4th BoS meeting scheduled for 7pm at Town Hall.

A lot of museums offer free or very deeply-discounted admissions to residents of the town they're in. Keeps things cordial. I don't live or have any real estate in M'boro, so I have nothing to gain other than seeing everybody get along.

The management there is pretty marketing savvy, take PR seriously, and is probably aware of this discusssion. As an area resident and a lover of history and preservation efforts, maybe they'll kindly take my humble comments (actually just a repost of someone else's idears) under advisement.

[fatlazyless]

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/story...-castle-clouds

"All Walks and Talks are free with grounds pass purchased at the main gate. Participation is limited, to be sure of a spot, arrive early."

So, what's the price, if I want to see this on Friday at 5:30? Anybody know how much this will cost to get in at the main gate?

It looks like it will cost me fifteen dollars to get in at the main gate, looking at www.castleintheclouds.org: Visit the Castle: Visitor Information.


"The Castle in the Clouds is a non-profit business; all donations, and Castle business revenues remaining at the end of an operating year, go toward the maintenance of the property and restoration of the nearly 100 year old Arts and Crafts building."

..................

Today's August 24, 2011 http://www.concordmonitor.com/articl...ch-up-for-sale... is somewhat similar to the situation between The Castle in the Clouds and Town of Moultonborough because it is about the City of Concord trying to deny property tax-exempt status to an existing church www.libertyaog.org/.

The Church lost quite a bit of its' tax exempt status and has now placed the building(s) and land up for sale for $650,000, asking price which includes 26-acres (?) in Concord, which are currently assessed for one million dollars, according to the Concord Monitor. (Not sure if all 26 acres is included?)

Like wow.....this is an incredibly interesting news item, about Concord vs. the Destiny Christian Church, don't you think.....holy smokes! ..

[baja-mama]

We were just there on Sunday. The entrance gate has a sign that shows 15.00 for adults to view the Castle. But also listed is 5.00 for a grounds only pass

[SIKSUKR]

Go in by the bottling plant and pay nothing though you might not be able to join the walks and talks legaly but knowing how frugal and resourcefull you are,I could see you tagging along right behind the group.Hey,bring your loaded broom and fake like your cleaning behind them!