Speed Limit test zones dead in the water!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

Are you saying a speed limit will NOT lower the chances of a fatal accident!

Anybody want to go on record supporting that statement?

If in fact there was an overwhelming majority of accidents to date that were caused by speeds seriously greater than the proposed limits I might agree with you but since CG reports do not agree with you neither will I.

Sure, I will not argue that at slower speeds you have more reaction. A 2-4mph over a 25mph sped limit is not ridiculous and it is still hard to prove exactly what speed within a few mph he was traveling. I have not heard of a claim to speed in the accident in Maine but do not doubt that they were flying although on a dark night with a boat in your path that was not lit they are not entirely at fault. A speed limit may likely have had no effect, if a person is going to speed they are going to speed. A speed limit will not stop them. I speed frequently in my car or suv, chances are you and the bulk of the people on the forum do as well.

Why don't you start a new crusade, maybe smart chips installed in cars or boats that will read the speed limit of a certain area and govern the vehicle automatically? Seems like it could be a new quest for you.

[AC2717]

Just received this in an email because I am on the mailing list for alerts. I know we already know here that it has been defeated, but here is the more definitive direction of those that want a speed law in place are now going, it is a warning to us all:

The speed limit pilot offered by the NH Marine Patrol has been cancelled by the administration rule department. The pro-speed group lobbied to have it cancelled, citing it wasn't going to prove anything. The pro-speed group are now targeting PWCs, large cruisers in addition to performance boats and anything they deemed unsafe for our lakes. You can rest assured they will be contacting the representatives to twist their message that speed limits are needed. Only you can make a difference.

The chairman Rep Ryan, was quoted as saying its time for the House to get this bill and from what we gather he supports the bill. The pro-speed limit group often cites a poll that was done by random NH citizens, not random boaters. Your support is needed to help protect your rights!!

The Transportation committee is likely to vote on a recommendation this fall and then it goes to the full house in Jan 2008. If passed it will go the Senate, which they will have another hearing. We will need you at this hearing!!!

1. Stay informed, be active and come to the hearings.
2. Contact Transportation Committee if you haven't already.
3. Contact your local Representatives and Senators
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/w...eg/default.asp This will go to the whole house end of the month. Calls and letters work best, then emails.
4. If you haven't already, sign a new petition at http://www.opposehb847.com to be updated on status
5. Contact the local businesses your frequent that oppose the bill and ask them to get involved. Forward their names to info@nhrba.com to become part of Businesses that oppose HB847
6. Pass this onto EVERYONE you know.
7. We could use your letters to add to other ones provided by boaters like to you to put into a comprehensive package to be given to our legislators. Please send them to my email info@nhrba.com.
8. If you want financially help in this battle, you can purchase HB847 decals and posters, send an email to erica@nhrba.com if you wish to get any.

Your freedoms are being taking away without justification! Please contact the Transportation Committee members and your local representatives.

Thank you,
Custie
http://www.opposehb847.com

Again, pass this on to everyone you know who can help us protect our rights.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Skip

Once again you are incorrect, and I will ask you to please take a few moments and read the Supreme Court case that you cited.

From the same NH Supreme Court decision:

...There was significant evidence presented concerning the defendant’s consumption of alcohol and his attention level that evening...

Sorry Islander....not "weak evidence" but "significant evidence; the difference being, well, significant!

But hey, thanks for continually sending me these softballs, Lord knows I can use the batting practice!

Skip - As people will do when on the losing side of an argument, you are attempting to jump on any possible misstatement of mine. You have made two large posts based on one sentence. All I said was that the prosecution only proved 2 glasses of wine. But it just doesn't matter.

Lets assume he was blasted if you like.

The facts are: 28 is more than 25, he was acquitted of BWI, the speed limit bill will pass.


I do not know how fast the PWC was going. But unless it was not moving it had a speed. And a PWC is a high speed craft.

I'm glad some of you understand that speed limits will lower the chances of a fatal accident.

Lakegeezer's ideas would I think save lives. If he thinks it prudent he can push for legislation on those ideas. I would predict none of them will pass. However I, like 78% of NH registered voters believe speed limits are a good idea, and I have no doubt they will pass.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

As the saying goes,"better to be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt".

"If at first you don't succeed. Quit! No sense in being a damn fool about it!" W.C. Fields

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

The facts are: 28 is more than 25, he was acquitted of BWI, the speed limit bill will pass.

Of course he was acquitted of BWI, how do you test someone a few days after the incident? He made himself scarce and did not come into contact with the Police for a day or two. No surprise there.

[BroadHopper]

Since Winnipesaukee is legally a drinking water supply, I think we should ban ALL BOATS. Motorized and nonmotorized. No pollutants and it will quit all this bickering about speed limits, no wake zones, no rafting zones, horsepower limits, length of boats limits etc.
Think of the money we save by eliminating all boats and the Marine patrol. No problems with some islanders as they think they can walk on water....................

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Islander

ITD - All PWC's are high speed craft. After the speed limit passes there will be less PWC's on the lake. People will just not be as interested in buying them, knowing they can not fully use them. It could be that a parent will be less likely to allow a 15 year old to operate illegally if there is a speed limit. Since a PWC can easily break the limit, it improves the chances the child will be stopped and the underage condition discovered.

You are way too easy. Not all PWCs are "high speed craft" (capable of going over 45 mph). In fact riding a PWC over 25 or 30 for any long period of time (longer than a couple of minutes) can be quite uncomfortable. That is why almost all the PWCs I see when on the lake are easily passed at 30 MPH in my boat. (Of course, you sitting on your island, with your preconceived misconceptions would probably swear I was going 90 if you saw me pass a PWC.)

Originally Posted by Islander

Are you saying a speed limit will NOT lower the chances of a fatal accident!

Anybody want to go on record supporting that statement?

If anything, a speed limit will INCREASE the chances of a fatal accident on the lake by diverting MP from patrolling for 150' violations and other unsafe practices. Instead they will be sitting in one spot, probably in front of your house, sitting in speed traps.

Speed traps, BTW, that were tested this summer and showed there is NO speeding problem on Lake Winnipesaukee.


This 28 versus 25 BS is an estimate by an expert, it is not fact, we've argued this before and you are still wrong.

[Airwaves]

Something for Islander et al to work on after she has rid Winnipesaukee of those DANGEROUS boats.

This quote is from an Op-Ed piece in a California newspaper:

However, the latest statistics reveal recreational boating has never been safer, according to Scott Croft of BoatUS. The facts show boating is safer than riding a bicycle or motorcycle, and more people perish in bathtubs and swimming pools.

Link to the article:
http://www.dailypilot.com/articles/2...t-harbor13.txt

So, there’s your next challenge Islander!!! Get those bicycles off the road and close down those pools! I wonder it a hot tub is considered a pool or bathtub?

[overlook]

Islander

Your logic states that kayaks and all paddle boats should be banned, because there involved in more deaths than performance boats.

This speed limit bill will not decrease the likely hood of a death related accident.

YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE STUPIDITY.

[Islander]

It's not surprising that the MP can't find a speed problem in the test areas.

If you visit the offshore boating site you will find members, some that post in this forum, planning to either avoid the test sites or stay under the proposed limits when they are in the test sites.

If the truth doesn't work...... screw up the data.


If the MP wated to collect some valid data they could try unmarked boats in undisclosed areas. Publicizing the test area is... ..... .... ...... sorry I was laughing to hard to type.



ITD - Can you tell me the make and model of those PWC's that have a top speed under 45 mph?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Islander

It's not surprising that the MP can't find a speed problem in the test areas.

If you visit the offshore boating site you will find members, some that post in this forum, planning to either avoid the test sites or stay under the proposed limits when they are in the test sites.

If the truth doesn't work...... screw up the data.


If the MP wated to collect some valid data they could try unmarked boats in undisclosed areas. Publicizing the test area is... ..... .... ...... sorry I was laughing to hard to type.



ITD - Can you tell me the make and model of those PWC's that have a top speed under 45 mph?

Tigershark, I see many of these on the lake, the Seadoo two seaters with the smaller engine made a few years ago. I'm sure there are others.

Originally Posted by Islander

If the truth doesn't work...... screw up the data.

Once again you project your actions onto others.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by ITD

Tigershark, I see many of these on the lake, the Seadoo two seaters with the smaller engine made a few years ago. I'm sure there are others.

Tigershark is an Arctic Cat not Seadoo. Top speed about 70 if you are alone. I used to ride one.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Yamaha XL 700 Will barely make 40
Seadoo GTI again a stretch to do 40

Also, Islander how about the data MP DID collect from undisclosed speed zones!!! Oh ya, you wouldn't want to mention that, because it doesn't support your crusade!!!

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by Islander

If you visit the offshore boating site you will find members, some that post in this forum, planning to either avoid the test sites or stay under the proposed limits when they are in the test sites.

Cite your source please.

Of course they publicized the test locations, they were planning on ticketing in those areas. If you are going to make a new law and enforce it, it is rather key that you tell people about it first.

"Yes sir, we're going to have to give you a ticket for speeding. Oh, you didn't know there was a limit now? Of course not, we didn't tell you because we thought you might slow down otherwise."

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Islander

{snip}
I do not know how fast the PWC was going. But unless it was not moving it had a speed. And a PWC is a high speed craft.
{snip}

I have to ask what you consider to be a high speed. Also was the PWC the teenager riding one of these or a lesser watercraft ? Since you don't know how fast he was going I really have to question what drives you to apply the term "speed related fatality" to this incident ? Moreover last I had read the craft didn't look damaged and so the possibility of collision with another vessel seems remote at this time. In what way would this incident support the need for a speed limit which, if I recall what I've been told, is to protect "us" from the "speeders". Are "we" now pushing for another law to protect "us" from "ourselves" ?

As for Littlefield's speed I again remind people that if he was doing 28 mph and the Hartmans doing just 4 mph, the closing speed would have been under the proposed nightime limit. That anyone believes that, had the SL been in place that night, the results would have been any different ... well I guess I'll have to remind myself more often of what Einstein had to say about the vastness of human intelligence.

[Airwaves]

May I suggest to those of us who believe that there are currently laws on the books in NH that address the issues Islander et al are pushing focus our comments, via this forum, to Legislators in Concord?

Instead of responding to the outragous falsehoods and lies that Islander(s) et al are making, just point out to lawmakers that they are false and show them, through facts, statisics etc., why they are false.

Challenge legislators and the Governor to follow the data! No speed related accidents on Lake Winnipesaukee in years! NH requires a safe boating certificate! Data collected by the Marine Patrol! Things are working, the lake is safe, leave it alone!

In my opinion, Islander Et Al, has a problem, perhaps it is that he/she needs to be the center of attention?

Let's call on LEGISLATORS to really look at this bill and the data that the NH Marine Patrol has collected and KILL IT ONCE AND FOR ALL!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

Tigershark is an Arctic Cat not Seadoo. Top speed about 70 if you are alone. I used to ride one.

Another great falsification, wanna rethink that one?. Tigershark/Arctic Cat never made a machine that would break even a true 60mph. The fastest pwc to date on the market (in true mph not false speedo mph, or "dreamo" as many pwc enthusiasts call it) is approximately 70mph. There are two machines that are capable of this, the new 250hp Kawasaki 3 seater and the 2 seater 215hp Sea Doo RXP. I am a PWC lover and have owned and ridden dozens of machines. My fastest one was a highly modified GP1200R, with $6k+ in mods it was only good for 73.7mph on radar. If you think that your probably stock Tigershark was a 70mph machine you are sadly mistaken, or just inflating speeds to suit your own agenda.

I can give you the name of an ex Tigershark dealer (they have not been produced in years) and you can verify for yourself. As for the speed stats of the Kawasaki and the Sea Doo I would be more than happy to dig up a test report if you need it. My FX-HO Yamaha is a 60mph machine all day long, under perfect conditions and no fuel you can see 62-63mph. The speedo may read 70+ but it is not accurate, nor is the speedo on any pwc. Riva Yamaha in FL is a Yamaha and Sea Doo dealer and one of the top pwc performance companies on the planet. Their performance upgrade section lists the actual top speed of most of the top machines onm the market and what their mods do to add to it.

By the way, our two yamaha 700 3 seaters will not break 45mph, probably 42 max.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Islander

Tigershark is an Arctic Cat not Seadoo. Top speed about 70 if you are alone. I used to ride one.

Please read my sentence closely. I did not say the Tigershark was a Seadoo. I was giving you two examples. I think I am beginning to understand why you can't be reasoned with.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ITD

Please read my sentence closely. I did not say the Tigershark was a Seadoo. I was giving you two examples. I think I am beginning to understand why you can't be reasoned with.

If he/she thinks a Tigershark ever did 70 mph, then he/she has no concept of being able to judge speed.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by chmeeee

Cite your source please.

Of course they publicized the test locations, they were planning on ticketing in those areas. If you are going to make a new law and enforce it, it is rather key that you tell people about it first.

"Yes sir, we're going to have to give you a ticket for speeding. Oh, you didn't know there was a limit now? Of course not, we didn't tell you because we thought you might slow down otherwise."

Here is one thread on the subject. You better get there quick, based on past experience those posts are going to start disappearing soon.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...d.php?t=157911

I like the quote below from that thread. It explains the entire thing was a sham.

"The only Ray of Sunshine I have heard is that a friend of mine (senator in NH) says it will never pass. The test was just a way to move it out of sight..."

I doubt Barrett ever had any intension of handing out any tickets. The entire thing was a delay tactic, or as the offshore people themselves think, a way to move it out of site. Then he has the incredible nerve to actually say he was trying to do what WinnFABS wanted. Give me a break!

We may all disagree with the need for a speed limit. But if you think the MP have not been playing their own game, then you have your head in the sand.

[Airwaves]

Concord, here’s the thing. Director Barrett did NOT say or imply this statement! It is a slanderous statement put forward by questionable sources on the Winnipesakee dot com forum trying to imply Director Barrett had no intention of collecting data and that you, members of the state legislature are in complicity.

Where did the following quote come from?

"The only Ray of Sunshine I have heard is that a friend of mine (senator in NH) says it will never pass. The test was just a way to move it out of sight..."

Someone on the internet identifying him/herself as OCDACTIVE!

Concord, now the opponents of a speed limit have taken to slandering a respected state official (Director Barrett) with "quote" from anonymous sources that could very well be themselves on an internet forum.

There is no data to support their position. There is an abundance of data to support the position that speed is not a problem on Lake Winnipesaukee.

It's time to show leadership and end this nonsense, there are laws in place to handle all the issues raised by the "speed limit, powerboats gotta go" crowd.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Islander

Here is one thread on the subject. You better get there quick, based on past experience those posts are going to start disappearing soon.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...d.php?t=157911

I like the quote below from that thread. It explains the entire thing was a sham.

"The only Ray of Sunshine I have heard is that a friend of mine (senator in NH) says it will never pass. The test was just a way to move it out of sight..."

I doubt Barrett ever had any intension of handing out any tickets. The entire thing was a delay tactic, or as the offshore people themselves think, a way to move it out of site. Then he has the incredible nerve to actually say he was trying to do what WinnFABS wanted. Give me a break!

We may all disagree with the need for a speed limit. But if you think the MP have not been playing their own game, then you have your head in the sand.

There were a lot of things stated in that thread, many of them inaccurate. Why is this the only one you obviously took as fact?

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Dave R

There were a lot of things stated in that thread, many of them inaccurate. Why is this the only one you obviously took as fact?

It could be BS but it does have the ring of truth.

It does illustrate the attitude of the high performance boat crowd. Not exactly the image one gets on this forum is it!

However I posted the link to back up my claim that the high speed crowd have devised a plan to skew the MP test area data. It does a pretty good job proving my theory doesn't it?

That thread is all the evidence anyone needs to prove than any data collected on test area speeds is useless.

Yet the MP is still out there every day wasting money collecting "data". Since the test zones are dead why don't they move this data collection effort to an area high speed boats are not avoiding. It's all a sham!

[Chris Craft]

The accident in Maine is under investigation. There is some speculation that the smaller boat may have run into the speed boat. The MP said that alcohol was not a factor for the PEOPLE IN THE SPEED BOAT. They have not said anything about the people in the other boat. Let them finish the investigation before you point the fingures at the speed boat.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

"...Let them finish the investigation before you point the fingers at the speed boat..."

A really good idea!

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

"...There is some speculation that the smaller boat may have run into the speed boat..."

Ummm...ummm...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Islander

It could be BS but it does have the ring of truth.

It does illustrate the attitude of the high performance boat crowd. Not exactly the image one gets on this forum is it!

However I posted the link to back up my claim that the high speed crowd have devised a plan to skew the MP test area data. It does a pretty good job proving my theory doesn't it?

That thread is all the evidence anyone needs to prove than any data collected on test area speeds is useless.

Yet the MP is still out there every day wasting money collecting "data". Since the test zones are dead why don't they move this data collection effort to an area high speed boats are not avoiding. It's all a sham!

It was my understanding (Laconia Citizen article) that there were(are???) six test zones where speed data has been (is being???) collected. Where the locations of all six disclosed? I only know of the two proposed speed limit areas and only assume that they were two of the six test areas.

I think that website attracts a very different crowd than this website, it's not my scene. I seriously doubt that any "high performance boaters" try to hide the fact that they enjoy high performance boats here. People don't buy those to blend in...

That said, this issue should never be about attitudes. I don't own a high performance boat, probably never will, and I am certain that there are plenty of high performance boaters out there that I would never be friends with. Many I've met strike me as jerks (plenty of good ones too). However, I strongly oppose laws aimed squarely at getting rid of people I don't like or don't share opinions with. To do otherwise would make me a bigot, or at least a snob.

If there were evidence of a need, I'd be completely for a speed limit, I boat with my kids, and I have strong protective instincts. I am 100% certain, based on years of boating on Winnipesaukee, that for the time being, a speed limit will not affect me at all, positively or negatively. All the accident data available clearly can only back up my certainty. I also occasionaly boat in places with speed limits, and can assure you Winnipesaukee boating is vastly less stressful and surely feels safer. Spend a day boating on the CT. River down in MA sometime if you wish to see how well 45 MPH speed limits work. It's an eye opener.

[ITD]

New editorial in Today's Citizen:

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...045/-1/CITIZEN

From the editorial:

"We have said in a previous editorial that we seriously question the need for a boating speed limit law. Stronger enforcement of boating regulations already on the books — like the safe-passage and headway-speed rules — would go a long way toward making a day out on the water more pleasurable for everyone out on the water, regardless of whether they are in a speedboat or a canoe. Also, the need for boaters to exercise courtesy cannot be overstated."

These people speak sense.

[bbarrell]

I just want to second the above poster who provided details on how to contact your local rep. They are getting hundreds of phone calls per week from supporters of this bill. Trust me, I've attended the hearings.
Please, I implore you, contact your rep to let them know how you want them to vote. They are working for YOU! There is strength in numbers and if they only hear from supporters, this bill may pass.

A quick phone call or letter is all it takes. I see many on the board who seem to not agree with the bill, speak your mind to the people that will listen!
The most important folks to contact right now are the ones listed as part of the 'transporation committee'...they are determining the fate of this bill shortly.
Thank You

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by bbarrell

I just want to second the above poster who provided details on how to contact your local rep. They are getting hundreds of phone calls per week from supporters of this bill. Trust me, I've attended the hearings.
Please, I implore you, contact your rep to let them know how you want them to vote. They are working for YOU! There is strength in numbers and if they only hear from supporters, this bill may pass.

A quick phone call or letter is all it takes. I see many on the board who seem to not agree with the bill, speak your mind to the people that will listen!
The most important folks to contact right now are the ones listed as part of the 'transporation committee'...they are determining the fate of this bill shortly.
Thank You

I have made several telephone calls to various members of the transportation. Left a couple messages, and spoke directly to a couple. They very much so appreciate hearing from people on this and several other transportation issues that happen to have come up.

I'm glad I did it, and so were they, thanks for the suggestion.

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by bbarrell

The most important folks to contact right now are the ones listed as part of the 'transporation committee'...they are determining the fate of this bill shortly. Thank You

Where are their names listed? Perhaps the power of the Winni forum can overcome the power of funded a political action committee. Again.

[Islander]

When you go up against the boating industry, and administrators that are looking for future boating industry jobs, you need professional help.

Don't forget to also contact your State Senator. That is where speed limits lost by just two votes last time. The new Senator for this area lives on Bear Island.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ns/b...xtcommcode=H27

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/sena...s/senate15.asp

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Islander

When you go up against the boating industry, and administrators that are looking for future boating industry jobs, you need professional help.

Don't forget to also contact your State Senator. That is where speed limits lost by just two votes last time. The new Senator for this area lives on Bear Island.

It is refreshing to hear that you admit you need professional help. We finally are in agreement on one point.

Hopefully, the new State Senator has much more common sense and is more open minded than his "Island neighbor".

R2B

[Paugus Bay Resident]

The new Senator for this area lives on Bear Island

BTW, the Senate roster doesn't show anyone claiming Bear Island as their residency, also I think they represent a District, not an Island

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

BTW, the Senate roster doesn't show anyone claiming Bear Island as their residency, also I think they represent a District, not an Island

Bear Island is represented by a Senator that lives here. The Senator also represents some off island areas as well.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Bear Island is represented by a Senator that lives here. The Senator also represents some off island areas as well.

You just twist and twist and twist. The roster lists no Senator that claims Bear Island as a residency. Is the roster incorrect? You stated that a Senator lives on the island. Now you say "lives here". Where, in NH? Every District is represented by a Senator that lives here in NH, correct me if I'm wrong Skip but I think residency is a requirement to be a Senator.

Bear in mind (pun indented) that Senators represent a District made up of people who vote. My vote counts as much as yours, assuming you can vote in NH and are a resident of the District your "Senator" represents.

[Uncle Fun]

I wonder if that Senator has a boat??? I am assuming that he does... What if it is a "High Speed Craft"??? Maybe Islander won't vote for him... Oh, I forgot, you actually have to get off the Island to go vote... Right on PBR Holy Cow... I just thought of something else... WHAT IF THE SENATOR RAFTS TOO??? If he doesn't, maybe we can invite him to see how much fun it can be with responsible people that lack agendas!!!!!!!!!!!! Moreover, what if that same Senator has a High Speed Personal Watercraft??? Oh my gosh... We better get all the scoop on the yet-to-be-named Senator!!!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

You just twist and twist and twist. The roster lists no Senator that claims Bear Island as a residency. Is the roster incorrect? You stated that a Senator lives on the island. Now you say "lives here". Where, in NH? Every District is represented by a Senator that lives here in NH, correct me if I'm wrong Skip but I think residency is a requirement to be a Senator.

Bear Island is located in New Hampshire's State Senate District 2. Senator Deborah Reynolds(D) represents Senate District 2 and is a legal (full time) resident of Plymouth, NH.

[Islander]

Do you people need to make a Federal case out of every comment I make?

I said the State Senator for the area lives on Bear Island. It is the truth. Geeeesh!

Now I got Skip going all legal on me! I guess I screwed up since nobody lives on Bear Island year round, then nobody is a legal resident, therefore nobody actually lives on Bear Island. So I guess I don't live here either.

Yet here I am. And so is Deb, she lives a few houses down from me.

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Islander

Do you people need to make a Federal case out of every comment I make?

I said the State Senator for the area lives on Bear Island. It is the truth. Geeeesh!

Now I got Skip going all legal on me! I guess I screwed up since nobody lives on Bear Island year round, then nobody is a legal resident, therefore nobody actually lives on Bear Island. So I guess I don't live here either.

Yet here I am. And so is Deb, she lives a few houses down from me.

I bet you are one of those neighbors that feels the need to bend her ear on a regular basis, even if she is trying to enjoy the nice weather.

I wonder how many registered voters are residents on bear vs the number of registered voters in Deb's district. I bet its a very small percentage. I'll have to give Deb a call and find out her position on this issue, and let her know what mine is. Thanks.

Skip, is there a telephone number listed on the roster for Deb, or will we have to flag her down like her neighbors do?

[Islander]

I'm certain the percentage of registered voters is higher on the island than in the rest of her district. We are a very civic minded bunch over here.


I guess you can ask her where she stands on speed limits, but did you miss the part where I told you that she lives on BEAR ISLAND.

[Resident 2B]

I guess I can now say that I live in NH!!

Twisting everything seems to be the new way to go!

Carry on Islander!

R2B

[Skip]

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

...Skip, is there a telephone number listed on the roster for Deb, or will we have to flag her down like her neighbors do?...

Nope, flagging down won't be necessary as the contact info and a neat little bio on the Senator can be read HERE.

Or maybe next time you are in the Plymouth, NH area where the good Senator actually lives, you could take her our for a cup of coffee and feign surprise when she acts surpised that you believe she actually lived in Meredith!

Politicians get very sensitive about these things....

Oh, and expect that she will expect for you to pick up the tab!

[Islander]

The MP have been "testing" speeds again. They place their boat at the narrowest part of the test area, between Camp Monotomy and the shoals off Jerry Point. Boats passing through the area have to go around the MP. Many boats slow down to do this, others have to slow because they slow etc.

They employ a regular MP boat, you know, the distinctive design we all can spot about a mile away. If you are new to the lake there are always the words MARINE PATROL in two foot high letters on each side of the boat.

I can't imagine any observer seeing this and thinking "real" data is being collected.

If you want a lesson in police presence come on down to the Pine/Bear NWZ and see what passes for no wake speed when the MP are in site and when they are not. The same dynamic is evident in "speed testing".

It's no longer a joke, it is embarrassing and an insult to our intelligence.

[GWC...]

Words to live by...

Originally Posted by Islander

If you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger!

Originally Posted by Islander

The MP have been "testing" speeds again.

I can't imagine any observer seeing this and thinking "real" data is being collected.

It's no longer a joke, it is embarrassing and an insult to our intelligence.

Originally Posted by Islander

When you go up against the boating industry, and administrators that are looking for future boating industry jobs, you need professional help.

Originally Posted by Islander

I said the State Senator for the area lives on Bear Island. It is the truth.

Originally Posted by Islander

I'm certain the percentage of registered voters is higher on the island than in the rest of her district. We are a very civic minded bunch over here.

I guess you can ask her where she stands on speed limits, but did you miss the part where I told you that she lives on BEAR ISLAND.

Originally Posted by Islander

If you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger!

Originally Posted by Islander

The MP have been "testing" speeds again.

I can't imagine any observer seeing this and thinking "real" data is being collected.

It's no longer a joke, it is embarrassing and an insult to our intelligence.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Islander

The MP have been "testing" speeds again. They place their boat at the narrowest part of the test area, between Camp Monotomy and the shoals off Jerry Point. Boats passing through the area have to go around the MP. Many boats slow down to do this, others have to slow because they slow etc.

They employ a regular MP boat, you know, the distinctive design we all can spot about a mile away. If you are new to the lake there are always the words MARINE PATROL in two foot high letters on each side of the boat.

I can't imagine any observer seeing this and thinking "real" data is being collected.

If you want a lesson in police presence come on down to the Pine/Bear NWZ and see what passes for no wake speed when the MP are in site and when they are not. The same dynamic is evident in "speed testing".

It's no longer a joke, it is embarrassing and an insult to our intelligence.

So what do you suggest , everyone fly by the MPs??? Come on , use your head. Where ever you see a cop on land , speeding or not , everybody slows down. It's a natural reaction.
Why don't you be the first to fly past them at a dangerous and totally unsafe speed of , say , 51 or 52 mph and report back to us what happens

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Islander

I'm certain the percentage of registered voters is higher on the island than in the rest of her district. We are a very civic minded bunch over here.

I guess you can ask her where she stands on speed limits, but did you miss the part where I told you that she lives on BEAR ISLAND.

Civic minded doesn't mean a thing when they are not citizens of the state of NH, and can't vote her out of office(which I've hear you say in the past). I also wonder which two senators you replaced out of how many that voted against it, all the while saying to us you replaced the two that voted against it. LMAO.

LOL... You think the percentage of register voters is higher on Bear Island versus the rest of her district? Let me check with the town of Meredith and Visionappraisal.com about the mailing address of these folks(that would be the first clue that you are very wrong, how stupid do you think we are?). I already know your not from her district.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Cal

So what do you suggest , everyone fly by the MPs??? Come on , use your head. Where ever you see a cop on land , speeding or not , everybody slows down. It's a natural reaction.
Why don't you be the first to fly past them at a dangerous and totally unsafe speed of , say , 51 or 52 mph and report back to us what happens

I think you are absolutely right. Where you see a cop, everybody slows down. And if that cop was recording those speeds to see how fast boats are going on the lake, then his readings would be a lot lower than reality.

I think we are left with three possibilities

1. The MP are absolutely clueless about how to take A sampling of lake boat speeds.

2. The MP are not able to come up with an unmarked fishing boat, aluminum skiff or bowrider to take the readings from.

3. The MP leadership want the data to be low so the legislature will think a speed limit is unnecessary. Then these same leaders will have earned cushy jobs in the boating industry.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Islander

The MP have been "testing" speeds again. They place their boat at the narrowest part of the test area, between Camp Monotomy and the shoals off Jerry Point. Boats passing through the area have to go around the MP. Many boats slow down to do this, others have to slow because they slow etc.

You actually think a speed limit will change boaters' behavior? Even with a speed limit in place, they'll see the distinctive MP boats that by your own admission are easy to pick out from a distance, and they'll slow down.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

The MP are absolutely clueless about how to take A sampling of lake boat speeds.

And you are? Of course your are, you're obviously so intellectually superior than the rest of us #$%&^%$# that live here and vote here, but then again you live on an island so of course your are.. All I can say is that it must *^*^ awesome being so superior to the rest of us. In all my years on this board, I have never been so personally affronted by anyone, but you. Your smug, holier-than-thou attitude is really starting to wear. I hope you show your neighbor, the senator, aka summer resident, this thread. By my account, you're pretty much the only one on it supporting a speed limit (on this thread about speed limits). I'm sure you'll correct me as I'm probably wrong. I've never added anyone to my blocked reply list (not even APS ) but there's a first time for everything. Someone died, it was a tragic accident that could have been easily prevented, with good judgment and responsibility not a speed limit. Isn't it interesting that the majority of support, locally, for the speed limit, seems to be coming from Bear Island, at least on this forum.

BTW, I should probably thank you because your rants have hopefully gotten more people off their duffs who believe in personal freedom and responsibility and less government intrusion, to take some action. You haven't been a terribly great spokesperson for your cause IMHO. In fact, maybe your a plant for the anti-speed limit cause?

[Airwaves]

Islander:

I think you are absolutely right. Where you see a cop, everybody slows down. And if that cop was recording those speeds to see how fast boats are going on the lake, then his readings would be a lot lower than reality.

I think we are left with three possibilities

1. The MP are absolutely clueless about how to take A sampling of lake boat speeds.

2. The MP are not able to come up with an unmarked fishing boat, aluminum skiff or bowrider to take the readings from.

3. The MP leadership want the data to be low so the legislature will think a speed limit is unnecessary. Then these same leaders will have earned cushy jobs in the boating industry.

You really have crossed the line!

If I were a Marine Patrol officer, trained in the use of radar on the water, I could be stationed on what you some of you folks call the "Battle Cruiser", the rest of us call a " Coast Guard Utility Boat" and I could still get you for violating any law on the NH books.

How Big and visibile is the Marine Patrol Battle Crusier? I think it's a 44 foot USCG Utility Boat is it not? Hard to hide one of them! NOT!

Wanna hide a 44 ' boat? No problem, I will pick a spot where most of us are familar. Let's put the 44 just on the Glendale side of Governor's Island point near the Witches. The 44 would be hidden by the Island and is a stable platform. Certainly big enough for even you to see isn't it? Hell. It's a 44 foot boat! Betcha it can clock all kinds of boats going into Saunders Bay or out toward the Broads! Maybe a few will be doing, 35 or 40 miles an hour!

Any of you can find other spots where these "HIGH SPEED CRAFT" operate, and locate a 44 foot Marine Patrol Boat out of sight if needed and the results will be the same.

Or maybe guess what, the Marine Patrol is currently using smaller boats in the same areas doing the same thing! As I recall the local papers said there are (6) six test areas on the lake. Only two have the "speed limits".

Nope, the 44 isn't going to do a high speed chase. A properly trained crew will get the bow numbers of Islander's 60 mile an hour boat and arrest her later!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

"...I've never added anyone to my blocked reply list (not even APS )..."

I continue to hope that my posts provoke thought.

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

"...Someone died, it was a tragic accident that could have been easily prevented, with good judgment and responsibility not a speed limit.

Someone?

Some want to blame the collision on a waitress for "overserving".

Had the 36' boat been able to go faster—just as in the recent case at Long Lake, Maine—ejections from the bigger boat would have put everybody in the headlines instead of just one poor guy. In that case, we'd already have speed limits by now.

On many lakes, like Texoma, Travis, Smith Mountain Lake, Long Lake and at Grand Haven, the headlines of those dozen+ recent fatalities are starting the call for speed limits on those lakes.

But everyone's eyes are on Lake Winnipesaukee: what happens here determines the future of a plastics industry that pumps out still-heavier, still-wider, still-longer and still-faster boats.

As examples, what were the biggest Donzis made 15 years ago—or even Cobalt? And look at those today!

Why such inappropriate vessels appear on our narrow, protected waterways remains a mystery to me, just as it is to respected BoatUS moderator Les Hall. He states, "Take it to the ocean". (Les is a New Hampshire resident).

Say, now that "Education" has been extended to nearly all Winnipesaukee boaters, where have the trumpets gone that heralded that answer?

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

"...Isn't it interesting that the majority of support, locally, for the speed limit, seems to be coming from Bear Island, at least on this forum..."

How many opposing opinions arrive from California, Florida and Texas—by boaters who have never visited Lake Winnipesaukee nor known the decedent?

This lake shouldn't have a fear factor that has many of us in 20-foot boats looking over our shoulders when we hear that dreaded drone getting louder.

And speaking of headlines, I'll bet even barbecuing near the shoreline has become a concern at Maine's Long Lake!

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Rose

You actually think a speed limit will change boaters' behavior? Even with a speed limit in place, they'll see the distinctive MP boats that by your own admission are easy to pick out from a distance, and they'll slow down.

I think the speed limit will change a boaters behavior when they are deciding which lake to trailer their boat to. They will not be trailering their GFBL to lakes with 45 mph speed limits.

I think speed limits will change a boaters behavior when the time comes to buy a new boat. Why spend 500k for a boat that will go 130 mph when there is a 45 mph speed limit.

I think a speed limit will change a boaters behavior just because most people are law abiding. They may push 45 to 50 or 55 but they will not go much faster than that.

And once speed limits are in place it might dawn on the MP that a unmarked boat is the best answer if they want to set up a speed trap.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

. Someone died,

More than one person has died. Earlier this summer, during one two week period, three PWC's were involved in fatal accidents that took the lives of two teenagers. Do you people keep up with the news, or just ignore it.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Islander:


You really have crossed the line!

If I were a Marine Patrol officer, trained in the use of radar on the water, I could be stationed on what you some of you folks call the "Battle Cruiser", the rest of us call a " Coast Guard Utility Boat" and I could still get you for violating any law on the NH books.

How Big and visibile is the Marine Patrol Battle Crusier? I think it's a 44 foot USCG Utility Boat is it not? Hard to hide one of them! NOT!

Wanna hide a 44 ' boat? No problem, I will pick a spot where most of us are familar. Let's put the 44 just on the Glendale side of Governor's Island point near the Witches. The 44 would be hidden by the Island and is a stable platform. Certainly big enough for even you to see isn't it? Hell. It's a 44 foot boat! Betcha it can clock all kinds of boats going into Saunders Bay or out toward the Broads! Maybe a few will be doing, 35 or 40 miles an hour!

Any of you can find other spots where these "HIGH SPEED CRAFT" operate, and locate a 44 foot Marine Patrol Boat out of sight if needed and the results will be the same.

Or maybe guess what, the Marine Patrol is currently using smaller boats in the same areas doing the same thing! As I recall the local papers said there are (6) six test areas on the lake. Only two have the "speed limits".

Nope, the 44 isn't going to do a high speed chase. A properly trained crew will get the bow numbers of Islander's 60 mile an hour boat and arrest her later!

If they can hide their boats then why don't they? What is your point?

My point is they are displaying their identity on purpose so that boats will slow down. The data they then collect is useless.

If they can hide their boats, why don't they?

BTW, I have no idea what line I have crossed. Will you please explain?

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Islander

If they can hide their boats then why don't they? What is your point?

My point is they are displaying their identity on purpose so that boats will slow down. The data they then collect is useless.

If they can hide their boats, why don't they?

BTW, I have no idea what line I have crossed. Will you please explain?

Trying to sort through all the noise of your posts, I see two recurring themes:

1) Speed limits are inevitable. Both because the vast majority of people want them, and you live in close proximity (at least part of the year) to a NH senator

2) The efforts of various LE groups to test speed limits are being done in such a way as to skew the data collected, such that it is useless and likely to show that there are no speed issues on the lake.

These points sort of seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. What leads you to believe there will ever be a speed limit on the lake if the efforts to test the need for it are being purposefully mishandled?

Note: if I have misinterpreted your posts, I'm happy to have you clarify these specific points, if it can be done without dragging the issue in 300 non-relevant directions.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Islander

Tigershark is an Arctic Cat not Seadoo. Top speed about 70 if you are alone. I used to ride one.

Tigershark NEVER made a PWC that did 70. If you saw 70 on a dreamometer that doesn't make it true. Even today there is not a production PWC that will do over 70. Closest right now is the Kawasaki Ultra 250 and the SeaDoo RXPs and RXTs and the Yamahe GPRs, they all come in 68 -70 MPH. Tigershark hasn't made anything in years and the fastest PWC on the water when they quit were in the 60 MPH range. I have done endless GPS tests on man y different PWC so I have first hand experience in this area.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Trying to sort through all the noise of your posts, I see two recurring themes:

1) Speed limits are inevitable. Both because the vast majority of people want them, and you live in close proximity (at least part of the year) to a NH senator

2) The efforts of various LE groups to test speed limits are being done in such a way as to skew the data collected, such that it is useless and likely to show that there are no speed issues on the lake.

These points sort of seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. What leads you to believe there will ever be a speed limit on the lake if the efforts to test the need for it are being purposefully mishandled?

Note: if I have misinterpreted your posts, I'm happy to have you clarify these specific points, if it can be done without dragging the issue in 300 non-relevant directions.

Speed limits are inevitable, but my proximity to a Senator has nothing to do with it. The Senate voted down the previous speed limit bill by two votes. The current Senate has more liberals, more women and more democrats. The numbers are there now to pass this bill.

Plus the death toll is rising. Four in the area just this summer. And Coast Guard statistics show boating accidents on the rise.

Even the organized anti speed limit crowd have given up. Where is NHRBA? Gone from this argument.

The MP have been against speed limits from the beginning. This test area baloney is just their last shot in a losing battle. The Legislative Committee voted unanimously to reject the MP's 8 year delay tactic. Even Barrett now says a speed limit will pass.

Public opinion has also changed with 78% of registered NH voters favoring speed limits.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Islander

Speed limits are inevitable, but my proximity to a Senator has nothing to do with it. The Senate voted down the previous speed limit bill by two votes. The current Senate has more liberals, more women and more democrats. The numbers are there now to pass this bill.

Plus the death toll is rising. Four in the area just this summer. And Coast Guard statistics show boating accidents on the rise.

Even the organized anti speed limit crowd have given up. Where is NHRBA? Gone from this argument.

The MP have been against speed limits from the beginning. This test area baloney is just their last shot in a losing battle. The Legislative Committee voted unanimously to reject the MP's 8 year delay tactic. Even Barrett now says a speed limit will pass.

Public opinion has also changed with 78% of registered NH voters favoring speed limits.

I have never seen anyone make up statistics to the degree you have. I have yet to see you post any valid source of these ficticious stats you quote. Meanwhile all research that other people post here is real.

I was involved in voting out a Senator who supported the speed limit, and he doesn't even own a boat! And will continue to not vote for politicians who support laws that remove freedoms.

To everyone else: If we don't post anymore the ONE person who believes there will be a speed limit and defends it here will have no one to argue with.

[KonaChick]

I know the Bear Island contingent and their feelings on PWC's. The funniest thing is that when we go to visit relatives on BI the kids are literally drooling to take a ride on our PWC. It's such a dichotomy to see the NO PWC'S THEY ARE EVIL crowd and the PLEASE PLEASE TAKE US OUT FOR A RIDE ones. I always chuckle each time we see this!

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Islander

Speed limits are inevitable, but my proximity to a Senator has nothing to do with it. The Senate voted down the previous speed limit bill by two votes. The current Senate has more liberals, more women and more democrats. The numbers are there now to pass this bill.

All according to your ever present agenda driven opinion.

Originally Posted by Islander

Plus the death toll is rising. Four in the area just this summer. And Coast Guard statistics show boating accidents on the rise.

Statistic have been repeatedly presented that less than 10% these accidents have had anything to do with speed. Speed is not the issue here nor nationwide.

Originally Posted by Islander

Even the organized anti speed limit crowd have given up. Where is NHRBA? Gone from this argument.

Seems to me the speed limit side consists of you and your alter ego's previously revealed by the moderator of this forum to all come from the same IP.

Originally Posted by Islander

The MP have been against speed limits from the beginning. This test area baloney is just their last shot in a losing battle. The Legislative Committee voted unanimously to reject the MP's 8 year delay tactic. Even Barrett now says a speed limit will pass.

Barrett is saying a speed limit will not do anything to change things on this lake.

Originally Posted by Islander

Public opinion has also changed with 78% of registered NH voters favoring speed limits.

Registered voters in Salem, NH on a Monday evening in July?

Fill us in on the parameters of this so-called poll.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Islander

Plus the death toll is rising. Four in the area just this summer. And Coast Guard statistics show boating accidents on the rise.

And of course all are a direct result of speed , correct??? Or are you purposely omittiing the WHOLE truth to lead us to believe it was speed related

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Islander

Public opinion has also changed with 78% of registered NH voters favoring speed limits.

Islander,

Where and when was this poll taken?

You could add significant creditability to your statements by providing references.

Making statements without providing references makes you look foolish.

R2B

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Islander

I think a speed limit will change a boaters behavior just because most people are law abiding.

Thank you for your polite and reasoned response...I was afraid my question might be taken as a bit of a slam...it was not meant that way.

I don't have the faith that you do in my fellow man that a speed limit will make a difference...too much experience on the lake with rude captains of all types of boats. It may remove certain types of watercraft from the lake, but I think the reckless and rude behavior, and the danger inherent when such people operate a boat, will remain.

[Airwaves]

Islander:

I have no idea what line I have crossed. Will you please explain?

Islander:

1. The MP are absolutely clueless about how to take A sampling of lake boat speeds.

2. The MP are not able to come up with an unmarked fishing boat, aluminum skiff or bowrider to take the readings from.

3. The MP leadership want the data to be low so the legislature will think a speed limit is unnecessary. Then these same leaders will have earned cushy jobs in the boating industry.

You've made some pretty serious accusations by implying the Marine Patrol is:
Stupid, sabotaging data and misuse of power for private gain.
Yep, you've crossed the line.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by Islander

{cut}
Public opinion has also changed with 78% of registered NH voters favoring speed limits.

2 Calmly asked questions.

Do you happen to know the exact question that was asked which yielded a 78% affirmative response?

Do you "think" that if the question had been:
Would you favor a state wide lakes and ponds speed limit system in NH that is similar to the roads where the speed limit is proportional to the ability of the road to handle vehicles of a certain speed?

This is not a trick question, just wondering if 79% would agree to this question?

Now I have to drive home on 93 at 65 mph+ with inattentive drivers who try to break the 1 foot rule. Now that's scary.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Rose

Thank you for your polite and reasoned response...I was afraid my question might be taken as a bit of a slam...it was not meant that way.

I don't have the faith that you do in my fellow man that a speed limit will make a difference...too much experience on the lake with rude captains of all types of boats. It may remove certain types of watercraft from the lake, but I think the reckless and rude behavior, and the danger inherent when such people operate a boat, will remain.

You are unfortunately correct, speed limits will not "fix" the lake. However it is a step in the right direction. Other lakes that have enacted speed limits have had positive results without the dire consequences predicted in this forum. And law enforcement officials from those lakes report few enforcement problems.



Resident 2B - The study was done by the American Research Group in February of 2007. Please look up the data yourself. Anything I post will be discounted anyway.



Instead of beating up on me the opposition could take their issues to some of the local marinas that have signed on to support speed limits.

Fay’s Boatyard, Thurston’s Marina, Meredith Marina, Trexler’s Marina, Paugus Bay Marina, Y-Landing Marina, Glendale Marine, Lands End Marine, River Edge Marine

I applaud the courage of these Marina owners in standing up to the we need speed crowd. Clearly they see that speed limits will be good for the lake and the lakes economy.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Islander,

Where and when was this poll taken?

You could add significant creditability to your statements by providing references.

Making statements without providing references makes you look foolish.

R2B

The 2005 Speed Limit Poll:

http://americanresearchgroup.com/nhpoll/boat/

The pen is mightier than the sword…

[tis]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Why does anyone who does not live on the lake or use the lake CARE if there is a speed limit or not? People in Manchester who have never seen the lake would have no idea what to say in a survey response, nor should they be asked!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by tis

I have said it before and I will say it again. Why does anyone who does not live on the lake or use the lake CARE if there is a speed limit or not? People in Manchester who have never seen the lake would have no idea what to say in a survey response, nor should they be asked!

Except they own the lake.

(The people of New Hampshire that is)

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Islander

Resident 2B - The study was done by the American Research Group in February of 2007. Please look up the data yourself. Anything I post will be discounted anyway.

Islander,

I went to the web site for the American Research Group and learned they do consumer research. I searched for "lake speed limit" looking to match any word (Lake, Speed or Limit) and I got the following response:

America's Research Group > Home

Match: Any Format: Short
Refine search:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents 1 - 3 of 3 matches. More 's indicate a better match.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Furniture Buying Index: America's Research Group
... news for furniture retailers, The Furniture Buying Index continues to hold steady this month. * APRIL -FURNITURE BUYING INDEX UP ONE POINT Full speed ahead, Furniture Buying Index back up to 90 in April * FEBRUARY -FURNITURE BUYING INDEX UP TWO POINTS Furniture Buying Index gives retailers momentum ...
http://americasresearchgroup.com/furniture_buying.html 08/08/07, 27853 bytes
America's Research Group

FURNITURE BUYING INDEX UP ONE POINT --Full speed ahead, Furniture Buying Index back up to 90 in April -- Charleston, SC April 1, 2004 – The Furniture Buying Index is up one point this month to a reading of 90. This is good news for furniture retailers because this means the Index is holding ...
http://americasresearchgroup.com/fbi_0404.html 04/08/04, 10551 bytes
America's Research Group

America's Ten Most Budget-Conscious Cities 1. Orlando, Florida 2. Buffalo, New York 3. Salt Lake City, Utah 4. Youngstown, Ohio 5. Johnstown, Pennsylvania 6. Toledo, Ohio 7. Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania 8. El Paso, Texas 9. Rockford, Illinois 10. Odessa, Texas Selling Business Books to Businesspeople ...
http://americasresearchgroup.com/mr_archive_7_8.html 04/23/02, 12658 bytes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I cannot verify your data or your statement. Would you please back-up your reference to this interesting data. If you are unable to, it would appear to all normal people that the "78% of NH voters favoring a speed limit" statement is just another of your fabrications.



R2B

[Skip]

Originally Posted by islander

...the study was done by the American Research Group in February of 2007...

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

...Islander...Where and when was this poll taken...

In late June of 2005 a poll of six hundred randomly telephoned New Hampshire residences resulted in 64% of the respondents in favor of the question, 22% opposed and 14% undecided.

The exact wording of the question was:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?

The American Research Group conducted a poll, not a study. The poll was conducted in 2005, not 2007 and those supporting the question posed totaled 64%, not 78%.

Perhaps these mistakes are why Islander did not supply the following LINK to verify her claims?

Ah, maybe we should poll our readers to study this issue further!


There are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies and then there are statistics - Mark Twain

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

...
Why such inappropriate vessels appear on our narrow, protected waterways remains a mystery to me, just as it is to respected BoatUS moderator Les Hall. He states, "Take it to the ocean". (Les is a New Hampshire resident).
...

If you respect the guy so much, you should try to remember the name of his forum, it's not BoatUS, it is:

BoaterEd, Dedicated to Boater Education

I send money to BoatUS every year and they would never support a boat banning bill. Even if you put a bow on it and call it a speed limit.

[Islander]

Do you people know why you are arguing every little point and finding fault when someone uses "study" instead of "poll"?

It's because you have lost the main argument and you know it.




There was a study done in 2005, the result was 64%. It was done again in February of 2006 and the result was 63%. They also asked again in February of 2007 and the result was 78%. This is not listed on the main web site, I have no idea why. I could probably find it somewhere else but why should I bother, you will find some other fault with it or decide it doesn't count for some reason.

Just take my word for it, or call me a liar. But if you call me a liar be sure and come back later and apologize when you find out I am right.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Islander

...Just take my word for it...

That's the same line the good folks over at the Flat Earth Society foist upon their critics....

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Skip

That's the same line the good folks over at the Flat Earth Society foist upon their critics....

Call me a liar or drop it!

[WeirsBeachBoater]

I am looking but have not found how to do one. I think its time we polled winni.com. I think we can prove to Islander that she is losing the battle! And before we do, is there anyway to prevent one poster from submitting their choice more than once? Cause I know Islander would spend the next millenium up all night posting, posting, posting......

[Airwaves]

Islander, do you know the difference between the two?

Do you people know why you are arguing every little point and finding fault when someone uses "study" instead of "poll"?

It's because you have lost the main argument and you know it.

There was a study done in 2005, the result was 64%. It was done again in February of 2006 and the result was 63%. They also asked again in February of 2007 and the result was 78%. This is not listed on the main web site, I have no idea why. I could probably find it somewhere else but why should I bother, you will find some other fault with it or decide it doesn't count for some reason.

Just take my word for it, or call me a liar. But if you call me a liar be sure and come back later and apologize when you find out I am right.

Islander, I think you have proven your point. You don't know the difference between a poll and a study.

You have exaggerated and twisted the facts. You have accused the leadership of the Marine Patrol of abusing their office for personal gain.

Islander, you really need to chill. The facts don't back up your statements and your accusations are getting annoying and could be considered slanderous.

Step back my friend.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I am looking but have not found how to do one. I think its time we polled winni.com. I think we can prove to Islander that she is losing the battle! And before we do, is there anyway to prevent one poster from submitting their choice more than once? Cause I know Islander would spend the next millenium up all night posting, posting, posting......

A poll on this site will make life tough for our webmaster. There will be a flood of new members on both side as everyone gets there friends and relatives to sign up. After the poll we will never hear from them again. If you look at the old posts on this site you will see a lot of one topic posters.

[Cal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Islander

Plus the death toll is rising. Four in the area just this summer. And Coast Guard statistics show boating accidents on the rise.

Originally Posted by Cal

And of course all are a direct result of speed , correct??? Or are you purposely omittiing the WHOLE truth to lead us to believe it was speed related

Like I said , are they ALL related to speed??? Huh , huh...inquiring minds want to know
Or would you say that just to make it SOUND like speed was the cause?

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Cal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Islander

Plus the death toll is rising. Four in the area just this summer. And Coast Guard statistics show boating accidents on the rise.


Like I said , are they ALL related to speed??? Huh , huh...inquiring minds want to know
Or would you say that just to make it SOUND like speed was the cause?

I do not know the speed of the boats involved. I don't think it matters all that much. The two fatalities in Maine obviously involved high speed, the exact numbers are not important.

Two separate PWC accidents killed two teenagers and badly injured two more. Again I don't know the speeds, but teenagers going fast on a PWC is not unusual. And a crash at low speeds is not as likely to kill.

However the real benefit of a speed limit will be that less people will be putting high speed craft on the lakes of New Hampshire. When the speed limit passes families will purchase fewer PWC's. Some teenagers might even be forced to move from a PWC to a kayak.

A popular movie once quoted "if you build it, they will come". I would paraphrase that to "if you don't buy it, they can't ride it" or even "if you don't buy it, they can't be killed on it".

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Islander

I do not know the speed of the boats involved. I don't think it matters all that much.

A popular movie once quoted "if you build it, they will come". I would paraphrase that to "if you don't buy it, they can't ride it" or even "if you don't buy it, they can't be killed on it".

This should make the Lake safer for all...

Drain the Lake...

If there's no water; nobody can drown...

P.S.- No need for a boat speed limit, either
and the GFBL crowd will be elsewhere,
as will the large cruisers and their big wakes.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I am looking but have not found how to do one. I think its time we polled winni.com. I think we can prove to Islander that she is losing the battle! And before we do, is there anyway to prevent one poster from submitting their choice more than once? Cause I know Islander would spend the next millenium up all night posting, posting, posting......

A poll has already been done...

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=2764

Guess who was the first to protest its accuracy...

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Islander

I do not know the speed of the boats involved. I don't think it matters all that much. The two fatalities in Maine obviously involved high speed, the exact numbers are not important.



A popular movie once quoted "if you build it, they will come". I would paraphrase that to "if you don't buy it, they can't ride it" or even "if you don't buy it, they can't be killed on it".

Ooooooooooooohhh , I understand now. That's not lying , the original statement was just a little miss leading .
As for your quote please let me appologize , I forgot we are no long responsible for our actions and require laws to protect us from ourselves.
MY gawd woman , what's next , rubber rooms for all of us

FYI , kayaks by themselves (with out any other boats around) aren't 100% safe either.

[tis]

Bear Islander. Yes, I know the people of NH own the lake. Just as we own the roads. But I don't really care what the speed limit is in Andover NH because I never go there. It doesn't really bother me if it is 20 or 70. Why should I care. It is just not relevent to me personally. So again, why should people who don't use the lake care???

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Islander

The current Senate has more liberals, more women and more democrats. The numbers are there now to pass this bill.

Is this attitude any hint of the nanny laws we should expect from a Hillary presidency?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by tis

Bear Islander. Yes, I know the people of NH own the lake. Just as we own the roads. But I don't really care what the speed limit is in Andover NH because I never go there. It doesn't really bother me if it is 20 or 70. Why should I care. It is just not relevent to me personally. So again, why should people who don't use the lake care???

The citizens of NH have the responsibility to set certain limits for public safety. This is done through elected representatives, but the final responsibility is with the people.

Ultimately it's the responsibility of the citizens to determine if a speed limit is needed on NH lakes.

Also consider the speed limit will be state wide, including any lakes in Andover. Most citizens live near a lake, have been on a lake or will be on a lake.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Islander

The MP have been "testing" speeds again. ...
They employ a regular MP boat, you know, the distinctive design we all can spot about a mile away. If you are new to the lake there are always the words MARINE PATROL in two foot high letters on each side of the boat.

I can't imagine any observer seeing this and thinking "real" data is being collected.

It's no longer a joke, it is embarrassing and an insult to our intelligence.

Islander: I don't feel that NH Marine Patrol has either embarrassed me or insulted my intelligence. I know I've said that I studied French for 4 years in school and then I was allowed to take French II - but seriously Islander, what joke and etc. did I miss?

Remove your blinders and try to look at speed limit discussions and this test rationally, objectively and intelligently, if you can. "Real" data was collected during these tests. This was a fact-finding experiment. Collecting data on measuring boat speed using various methods and equipment. It was not just about setting up a marked speed trap but I'm sure it was a part of the overall experiment. Maybe they were collecting data on the difference between those same boats inside and outside the speed limit test areas? I don't have experience or a degree in this field but I can imagine there are people who do. Are you one of them?

Originally Posted by Islander

I think you are absolutely right. Where you see a cop, everybody slows down. And if that cop was recording those speeds to see how fast boats are going on the lake, then his readings would be a lot lower than reality.

I think we are left with three possibilities

1. The MP are absolutely clueless about how to take A sampling of lake boat speeds.

2. The MP are not able to come up with an unmarked fishing boat, aluminum skiff or bowrider to take the readings from.

3. The MP leadership want the data to be low so the legislature will think a speed limit is unnecessary. Then these same leaders will have earned cushy jobs in the boating industry.

IMHO There are more than 3 likely possibilities different from the ones you "think" are the only possibilities we are left with. Each one of the three POSSIBILITIES you present here and have eluded to in other posts need some explaining.

Do you really believe there is NO ONE around that misses the concept that boaters (and car drivers) behave better when the "COPS" are in sight? I don't have statistics to back me up but I'd guess at least a few at MP and in government are aware of this phenomenon - but that might be a low estimate.

1. You really think that the Marine Patrol and Dept of Safety are are "clueless"? Your desire to want us to believe this does not make it true. What are your credentials or sources that allow you to present this as a possibility?

2. The MP can not come up with an unmarked boat? How you could consider this a possibility. How many UNmarked boats might you miss seeing?

3. Corruption as a possibility. Hmmm what do you know and are you in the witness (or forum ) protection program?

All three of the possibilities you claim we are left with appear to be simply agenda driven rather than a productive discussion of the issues.

This style of debate really does detract and distract from the main topic: Speed Limits.

I could go on but as other have pointed out, this is getting tedious.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jrc

"...If you respect the guy so much, you should try to remember the name of his forum, it's not BoatUS, it is:

BoaterEd, Dedicated to Boater Education

Oops...You're right of course.

One relies on waterway fate, and the other relies on waterway education—how can those two get mixed up?

As to respect, Silver Duck and I are both BoaterEd forum members and are very respectful of Les Hall's expertise: when Les Hall does chime in, somebody will change the subject!

That Les Hall's take on Winnipesaukee speed limits echoes my own must be a coincidence of the first order.

Les and I are not alone about Lake Winnipesaukee, however.

[Islander]

Skipper

I did not mean to say that all three options where true, just one of them. I think clearly the truth is number three.

The MP have opposed speed limits from the beginning.

The Committee was all set to send speed limits to the floor, when Barrett pulled this test zone idea out of his hat. Nobody had asked him to do it, he thought it up by himself.

He then went ahead announcing it, purchasing equipment to do it and in fact started the program without legislative approval or even knowing if what he was doing was legal. How do you announce the date you are going to start issuing violations when the legislature has not even approved your idea?

The legislature now knows what he is all about, and the committee shut him down with a unanimous vote.

I doubt that any "real data" was obtained. The purpose was never to collect any "data". The purpose was to delay the speed limit bill.

You may have a different opinion, this is America. I respect that you may have an alternate opinion. It is not necessary for you to insult me because you do not agree with mine.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Islander

You may have a different opinion, this is America. I respect that you may have an alternate opinion. It is not necessary for you to insult me because you do not agree with mine.

Then quit insulting those who are in support of exercising the rights to be boaters.

The marinas who have listed are from Winnfabs webpage back in 2005, have 'jumped ship'. You will see them opposing the speed limits on the opposehb847 web site. I wish you would be more up to date on your facts.

[LRSLA]

This accident occurred on the ocean this past weekend/

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/8695

Direct link to video.

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=1155180898

These guys are running the same way on the inland lakes.

[Islander]

The numbers of these "water rockets" is growing all the time. (term used in the opinion part)

The number of idiots with the deep pockets to buy them, and not enough training or experience in their operation, is also growing.

Woodsy is a sensible responsible person that can operate a performance boat with safety. This is also true of many others. But some are knuckleheads with a large bank account and an online certificate.

Until we realize these facts the accident rate and death toll will continue to climb.





GWC - My post is number 20, where you will notice I am arguing against Island Lover!

Sorry if that screws up a conspiracy theory.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by LRSLA

This accident occurred on the ocean this past weekend/

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/8695

Direct link to video.

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=1155180898

These guys are running the same way on the inland lakes.

So are you implying this is happening on Lake Winni?? I've yet to see it in the 7 summers I've been here.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Islander

Skipper

...snip.....

I doubt that any "real data" was obtained. The purpose was never to collect any "data". The purpose was to delay the speed limit bill.

.....snip......

The only data you will call real is data that which reinforces your position. Unfortunately for you there is no data to support you. The data you use is data that you twist or to which you draw illogical, erroneous conclusions. There were six test sites, of which two were announced. The fact is that the data from these tests does not support the need for a speed limit. You've been waiting for a couple of years for a speed related death, ghoulish in my opinion, to bolster your position. It hasn't happened so you make it up as you go. You insult professional law enforcement officers and as far as I am concerned have written libelous things about Mr. Barrett. You don't have the data, when the data comes out not supporting you, you say it is bogus.

There is no need for a speed limit, it won't help the lake, it won't reduce wakes, it won't reduce the number of boats, it won't turn your waterfront into "On Golden Pond". It will detract from the many successful efforts of the MP who will have to spend countless hours trying to catch the small to non existent minority who may occasionally go above 45 mph. You watch, if the speed limit passes the number of deaths on Lake Winnipesaukee will increase. This is only your selfish agenda that is driving this and it is not right. You've pointed out that the state has more liberals in government now, well let's see if liberals succumb to fear mongering and lies or if they use common sense.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by LRSLA

This accident occurred on the ocean this past weekend/

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/8695

Direct link to video.

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=1155180898

These guys are running the same way on the inland lakes.

If that is so, when has it happened here? Show us some local video, please!

Your twisting of facts and embellishment of situations is totally out of control and approaching immoral!

We boat on this lake, not in the ocean. Kayakers are breaking the rules in our lake more often that boats capable of going faster than 45 MPH and other boaters in "slow" boats are grossly disregarding the good rules that are already in place, but those of you that think you are "so special" want to impose a speed limit.

Let the MP do their jobs and get behind existing safe boating rules if you really want to make the lake safer!

Stop the bombardment based upon fictional "facts" and the embellishment of things only remotely related to support your view of how life should be on our lake.

Free speach is very dangerous when it is not representing reality or is purposely biased to support an otherwise unsupportable position.

A wise American once said: "You can fool some people all of the time, and all people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time." I see his wisdom applying very well here.

R2B

[Islander]

Originally Posted by ITD

The only data you will call real is data that which reinforces your position. Unfortunately for you there is no data to support you. The data you use is data that you twist or to which you draw illogical, erroneous conclusions. There were six test sites, of which two were announced. The fact is that the data from these tests does not support the need for a speed limit. You've been waiting for a couple of years for a speed related death, ghoulish in my opinion, to bolster your position. It hasn't happened so you make it up as you go. You insult professional law enforcement officers and as far as I am concerned have written libelous things about Mr. Barrett. You don't have the data, when the data comes out not supporting you, you say it is bogus.

There is no need for a speed limit, it won't help the lake, it won't reduce wakes, it won't reduce the number of boats, it won't turn your waterfront into "On Golden Pond". It will detract from the many successful efforts of the MP who will have to spend countless hours trying to catch the small to non existent minority who may occasionally go above 45 mph. You watch, if the speed limit passes the number of deaths on Lake Winnipesaukee will increase. This is only your selfish agenda that is driving this and it is not right. You've pointed out that the state has more liberals in government now, well let's see if liberals succumb to fear mongering and lies or if they use common sense.

That you think my statements constitute libel only proves that you don't understand the meaning of the word. Look it up.

Originally Posted by ITD

There were six test sites, of which two were announced. The fact is that the data from these tests does not support the need for a speed limit.

I was not aware the data had been released. Where can I get a copy?

Is it available online?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by ITD

...and as far as I am concerned have written libelous things about Mr. Barrett...

Originally Posted by Islander

...That you think my statements constitute libel only proves that you don't understand the meaning of the word. Look it up...

I'm afraid she may have you here ITD. One of the elements the Director would need to clearly articulate in a Libel case would be proof that the accuser had enough credibility within the community to inflict harm. IMHO not sure if that would be the case here.....

Originally Posted by Islander

...I was not aware the data had been released. Where can I get a copy?

Is it available online?...

If I may be of assistance, I think you answered this very question in an earlier post of yours:

Originally Posted by Islander

...why don't you just give them a call, they are very nice people there!...

Don't bother thanking me, just trying to help!

Skip

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Islander

I was not aware the data had been released. Where can I get a copy?

Is it available online?

You already attempted to discredit it, and now it seems as though you have yet to see it. Very interesting indeed!!

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Oops...You're right of course.

One relies on waterway fate, and the other relies on waterway education—:

BoaterEd is a club of people talking about boats, it's education is answering questions posted on the wesite. A worthy effort but hardly in the same class as BoatUS:

Since its founding in 1966, BoatUS has been the voice of recreational boat owners on Capitol Hill and before the federal agencies in Washington. With the strength of 650,000 members behind us, our mission has been to fight unfair federal taxes, fees and regulations that single out boat owners and to work with state agencies to promote boating laws that make sense.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

As to respect, Silver Duck and I are both BoaterEd forum members and are very respectful of Les Hall's expertise: when Les Hall does chime in, somebody will change the subject!

I'm a member as well. If Les has an opinion on Winnipesaukee speed limits, why doesn't he log on here and make it known? Your out of context quote doesn't convince me.