The Dive

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Actually Braun Bay seems like the perfect place for the Dive, it should blend in perfectly and have little impact.

Braun Bay is so much better than the tiny sandbars at West Alton and Paugas Bay, they make no sense at all for such a huge piece of equipment. They must displace 20+ boats on the West Alton or Paugas Bay sandbars. I also cant imagine the Margate is thrilled to have it there.

Is there some reason it no longer goes to Braun?

If you have seen it set up at Paugus or West Alton you could seen it displaces 4-5 boats at the most and these locations fit very well into their plan this year. Very little travel and easy to resupply during the day with nice size crowds

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by joey2665

If you have seen it set up at Paugus or West Alton you could seen it displaces 4-5 boats at the most and these locations fit very well into their plan this year. Very little travel and easy to resupply during the day with nice size crowds

Yes I have seen it at West Alton and your 4 - 5 boat estimate is way off, its huge.

Are you talking about 4 - 5 35' boats or 20' boats???

It probably displaces more than double your 4 - 5 boats estimate just around the parameter, let alone the actual footprint of its structure.

In a place like Braun it would have minimal impact, but somewhere like West Alton or ever worse the Paugas sandbar, its overwhelming!

[John Mercier]

The sandbars already have a crowd.
So travelling to them, and then doing what you can to attract customer is the business rational.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Yes I have seen it at West Alton and your 4 - 5 boat estimate is way off, its huge.

Are you talking about 4 - 5 35' boats or 20' boats???

It probably displaces more than double your 4 - 5 boats estimate just around the parameter, let alone the actual footprint of its structure.

In a place like Braun it would have minimal impact, but somewhere like West Alton or ever worse the Paugas sandbar, its overwhelming!

XCR... You have your math wrong!

The NHMP measures from the gunwale to gunwale when determining rafting distance, not center line to center line.

The Dive measures at 20' beam x 60' length. so to make it easy, say you are in a no rafting zone like Braun or West Alton where boats have to stay 25' apart.... the Dive takes up the same approximate space of 2 boats (8.5' x 20')... 17' for the beam of the 2 boats + 75' distance.

25' + (Dive 60') +25' = 110' total

25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' for s total of 92'

So there is really only 18' linear difference.... so to be fair lets say it takes up 2.5 smaller boats worth of space... or 2 large cabin cruisers!

In places like Braun Bay & West Alton, its entirely possible for them to anchor outside the no rafting zone.

In places like the Margate sandbar.... it is not a NRZ.


Woodsy

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

XCR... You have your math wrong!

The NHMP measures from the gunwale to gunwale when determining rafting distance, not center line to center line.

The Dive measures at 20' beam x 60' length. so to make it easy, say you are in a no rafting zone like Braun or West Alton where boats have to stay 25' apart.... the Dive takes up the same approximate space of 2 boats (8.5' x 20')... 17' for the beam of the 2 boats + 75' distance.

25' + (Dive 60') +25' = 110' total

25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' for s total of 92'

So there is really only 18' linear difference.... so to be fair lets say it takes up 2.5 smaller boats worth of space... or 2 large cabin cruisers!

In places like Braun Bay & West Alton, its entirely possible for them to anchor outside the no rafting zone.

In places like the Margate sandbar.... it is not a NRZ.


Woodsy

Clearly you dont anchor at West Alton or Paugas bay on the weekend, boats are stuffed in like people on the "T"

If someone cannonballs into the water every boat bobs from the splash ;-)

My math may be wrong, but 2.5 boats, no chance,,,

LOVE this picture of the DIVE at Braun, fits rignt in at Braun, clearly a mistake to park it at West Alton or Paugas.

[Woodsy]

Your math is absolutely wrong... You cannot be mad at the Dive for other peoples illegal behavior. If you want to be a realist and say this behavior is what people do, that fine. But legally the Dive takes up 2 large boats worth of space on any given sandbar.

Unfortunately, that pic (and my boat is in that pic) was taken on the 4th of July a couple years ago and shows a whole lot of illegal rafting in Braun Bay. This is nothing new.

It because of this kind of rafting behavior, that when I get to (insert name here) sandbar, I take pictures.... so that when people anchor too close, I have my proof (for a judge) that I was there obeying the law, and that I am in no way responsible for other peoples behavior. This is also how I know how the NHMP measure distance between boats.

Woodsy

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Your math is absolutely wrong... You cannot be mad at the Dive for other peoples illegal behavior. If you want to be a realist and say this behavior is what people do, that fine. But legally the Dive takes up 2 large boats worth of space on any given sandbar.

Unfortunately, that pic (and my boat is in that pic) was taken on the 4th of July a couple years ago and shows a whole lot of illegal rafting in Braun Bay. This is nothing new.

It because of this kind of rafting behavior, that when I get to (insert name here) sandbar, I take pictures.... so that when people anchor too close, I have my proof (for a judge) that I was there obeying the law, and that I am in no way responsible for other peoples behavior. This is also how I know how the NHMP measure distance between boats.

Woodsy

A picture is worth a thousand words, this is all too common on Winnipesaukee Sandbars.

At this point I NEVER go out on the water on Saturdays during the season, Its just way too busy for me and not at all fun.

As for the Dive at West Alton, last time I saw it there is was a total nightmare, just way too busy to have something like that there on a busy day. And the Paugas sandbar is even tighter.

I dont object to the Dive cruising the lake, or even rotating locations, but parking regularly at a single spot and monopolizing it is not going to make many people happy and they already have enough problems with acceptance.

Maybe they could park some distance from the sandbar (not in the most preferred shallow water) so as to not impact the recreational boaters? Wouldnt that be the best compromise???

[John Mercier]

True. But lets surmise that law enforcement really put their foot down - which is the reason that you take the pictures.
What would you guess the number of boats in that area to be as a percentage of what is seen in the picture?

That reduces the overall possible clientele of the Dive, and may make the area less likely to receive a ''visit'' from them.

The business advantage that it employs it it can bring the product to the customers, it doesn't have to wait around for the customer like a land-based operation.

It is a little different in that the product is more adult-orientated and service is on the water; but not largely different that the ice cream trucks that use to frequent the local beaches parking lots when I was a child.

Obviously the beaches didn't spring up overnight, everyone knew how far their property was from the beach, but still property owner issues over being public or private. The ice cream truck never frequented the private beaches as they had their own snack bar.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Clearly you dont anchor at West Alton or Paugas bay on the weekend, boats are stuffed in like people on the "T"

If someone cannonballs into the water every boat bobs from the splash ;-)

My math may be wrong, but 2.5 boats, no chance,,,

LOVE this picture of the DIVE at Braun, fits rignt in at Braun, clearly a mistake to park it at West Alton or Paugas.

Reminds of the scene in Ozarks, where the preacher is handing out bibles with drugs in them at Sunday mass on the water.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Reminds of the scene in Ozarks, where the preacher is handing out bibles with drugs in them at Sunday mass on the water.

Kinda insane.

Not sure how this is fun for anyone, but thats their business as I have ZERO intention of participating in that mess.

Hard to believe the Dive is only 20' x 60' as it looks huge everytime I see it;

[Phantom]

Wonder when the bashing will end and we can just move on .............

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Wonder when the bashing will end and we can just move on .............

Well if your really displeased by the thread and want it to end, you could always start a new thread of some subject on a positive note and not add to this one.

Just a thought,,,

For example; where if anywhere can one find alcohol free gasoline on the lake?

Or, why dont more boat makers offer closed bow boats (even Chris Craft has abandoned them and turned the Launch series into bow riders)

Or possibly how nickle plated Colt SAA's make the best open carry guns (oh sorry, maybe not this one,,,)

Well you get the idea

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Wonder when the bashing will end and we can just move on .............

You could easily move on if it bothers you that much?

[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Kinda insane.

Not sure how this is fun for anyone, but thats their business as I have ZERO intention of participating in that mess.

Hard to believe the Dive is only 20' x 60' as it looks huge everytime I see it;

Crowded sandbars and The Dive add great ambiance to Lake Winnipesaukee. It's what Squam aspires to be someday. Anyone that does not want to raft and get drunk while wading in the urine of others just needs to get a life. #sandbarlife

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by wentworthwhitbreadIII

Crowded sandbars and The Dive add great ambiance to Lake Winnipesaukee. It's what Squam aspires to be someday. Anyone that does not want to raft and get drunk while wading in the urine of others just needs to get a life. #sandbarlife

Well after spending the day yesterday at Wolfboro, around Melody - Keniston - Barndoor islands, the West Alton sandbar and Paugas Bay, I have to say we had a good day.

Watching the spectrum of boating skills displayed at the Wolfboro docks reassured me that I am correct about paddle boarders keeping back some distance. (and maybe even other boaters!) Some people got their boats on without any problem, some couldnt do it all and gave up, some only were able to dock with the help of multiple people on the dock helping, and a few were way too confident and cocky and stuffed boats in were they should not have and too what appeared like unnecessary and high risk. We had the whole spectrum on Sunday.

Tubing around the islands SE of Wolfboro was perfect, other boaters were well behaved, no reckless nonsense and no probems made for a good time.

West Alton sandbar was actually very quiet for a weekend day. I would not have stopped and anchored if it was not so quiet. No bad actors, no loud music no DIVE,,,

And speaking of the DIVE, it was also not on the sandbar in Paugas, well at least not at lunchtime. We saw it along the shore between the Margate and Christmas Island. It actually blended in very well I almost didnt notice it. If thats its new home I say bravo, but then I dont live there,,, Still, it was way better than at one of the sandbars.

I dont wish them any ill will, I just dont think they should be on the Paugas Bay or West Alton sandbar nor any of the town docks intended for boats. Elsewhere, maybe depends of where, and so far as I'm concerned it can cruise the lake all they want.

[Taz]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Well after spending the day yesterday at Wolfboro, around Melody - Keniston - Barndoor islands, the West Alton sandbar and Paugas Bay, I have to say we had a good day.

Watching the spectrum of boating skills displayed at the Wolfboro docks reassured me that I am correct about paddle boarders keeping back some distance. (and maybe even other boaters!) Some people got their boats on without any problem, some couldnt do it all and gave up, some only were able to dock with the help of multiple people on the dock helping, and a few were way too confident and cocky and stuffed boats in were they should not have and too what appeared like unnecessary and high risk. We had the whole spectrum on Sunday.

Tubing around the islands SE of Wolfboro was perfect, other boaters were well behaved, no reckless nonsense and no probems made for a good time.

West Alton sandbar was actually very quiet for a weekend day. I would not have stopped and anchored if it was not so quiet. No bad actors, no loud music no DIVE,,,

And speaking of the DIVE, it was also not on the sandbar in Paugas, well at least not at lunchtime. We saw it along the shore between the Margate and Christmas Island. It actually blended in very well I almost didnt notice it. If thats its new home I say bravo, but then I dont live there,,, Still, it was way better than at one of the sandbars.

I dont wish them any ill will, I just dont think they should be on the Paugas Bay or West Alton sandbar nor any of the town docks intended for boats. Elsewhere, maybe depends of where, and so far as I'm concerned it can cruise the lake all they want.

I don't think just cruising the lake is sustainable and they can't do cruises anyway because they have no place they are allowed to pick up customers. I don't think doing sandbars is sustainable which was their original business plan. You get July and August to go to sandbars, not enough business and too cold to wade in the water before July and after August. They need a permanent home to tie up to and conduct business. Their one chance was Weirs and that's out now. I don't know anywhere else they can go. I would not be surprised if they are out of business on Winni in a year or two. I don't wish any ill will but I don't see how it's sustainable or worth the effort and aggravation on Winni. It should be in Florida or the Carribean.

[John Mercier]

The sandbars, etc, have a larger issue. Sewage.
We don't take the bath houses at the beaches and pump them into the lakes.

So if ''floating'' at the sandbars becomes too large a water quality issue, that venue could be gone rather quickly.

Beyond that, as this economic cycle wanes, customers are looking to the less expensive option. Pretty hard to beat a cooler with a couple of bags of ice.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The sandbars, etc, have a larger issue. Sewage.
We don't take the bath houses at the beaches and pump them into the lakes.

So if ''floating'' at the sandbars becomes too large a water quality issue, that venue could be gone rather quickly.

Beyond that, as this economic cycle wanes, customers are looking to the less expensive option. Pretty hard to beat a cooler with a couple of bags of ice.

Two things - first, and I'm in the camp of "hope they do well, but they certainly have a bad business plan and are quick to criticize their critics", meaning I'm not pro-Dive or anti-Dive ..... one thing you have to give to them, their clientele have a bathroom that has a holding tank that is properly pumped out when back at a dock. So if anything they help reduce the waste at the sandbars a bit, certainly do not add to it.

Second, on your last comment, I don't agree. Yes, anyone can go cheaper with a cooler, but Winni isn't about cheap, there are a ton of people that are willing, able, and anxious to pay $9 for a drink and I don't think they are going away in an economic cycle. Winnipesaukee is relatively immune from cycles, the wealth of the people at those sandbars is above John Q. Public that shifts to buying mac and cheese during economic downturns.

[John Mercier]

I didn't state they caused the sewage problem... just that ''floating'' may be restricted at all sandbars because of it.

And no... they really do not have more money than John Q Public.
You may think they do, but they really don't.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I didn't state they caused the sewage problem... just that ''floating'' may be restricted at all sandbars because of it.

And no... they really do not have more money than John Q Public.
You may think they do, but they really don't.

John, I didn't mean to imply you said they cause sewage problems, sorry about that. I just meant that if they show up at a sandbar it may be that they slightly reduce the problem.

On the money (wealth) part of it ... do you seriously think that lakefront and power boat owners on Winnipesaukee are not a wealthier group than the average citizen?

[Descant]

As I read it, "John Mercier" is pretty definitive in his statements. I disagree with some, but have no reason, i.e. Forum history, to give him the credibility he presumes, or to deny credibility. A little history or a more expansive profile would help. For example, posting about island services as a non-islander diminished his credibility on other issues. Obviously, anybody can post on anything, but I personally look at credentials from posters on some issues that deal with more closed issues. That's why, when posters look for help, I always want to know "Where are you?"

[John Mercier]

Really?
Who do you think these contractors purchase their materials from?

When I tell you we sell IKO... what establishment to you think I am talking about?

When I suggest that the tan LumberRock looks just like the Azek Brownstone and is priced the same way with delivery... what establishment comes to mind?

Most people have been in to Middleton and had me quote them something over the last several years... they not only have my card... they have my e*mail.

We ask the contractors continually if they are busy. We do that because the contractor contact list is a page long. Why waste a customers time by directing them to a contractor that is busy.

If you notice, I don't post on landscapers/lawn maintenance... because we don't generally handle most of what those contractors do.

As for the sandbar issue... it isn't new, and it isn't just the big lake.
While I fully believe the Dive is helping the situation... it isn't able to cover the scope of the situation.

And after 55 years of being born and raised here... I have watched economic cycle after economic cycle. Those with a high networth generally survive, those with a high income but little to no networth generally suffer.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Really?
Who do you think these contractors purchase their materials from?

When I tell you we sell IKO... what establishment to you think I am talking about?

When I suggest that the tan LumberRock looks just like the Azek Brownstone and is priced the same way with delivery... what establishment comes to mind?

Most people have been in to Middleton and had me quote them something over the last several years... they not only have my card... they have my e*mail.

We ask the contractors continually if they are busy. We do that because the contractor contact list is a page long. Why waste a customers time by directing them to a contractor that is busy.

If you notice, I don't post on landscapers/lawn maintenance... because we don't generally handle most of what those contractors do.

As for the sandbar issue... it isn't new, and it isn't just the big lake.
While I fully believe the Dive is helping the situation... it isn't able to cover the scope of the situation.

And after 55 years of being born and raised here... I have watched economic cycle after economic cycle. Those with a high networth generally survive, those with a high income but little to no networth generally suffer.

I was wondering what lumber supply you worked at, now I know. I go in there all the time so I will ask for you, sent you a PM.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I was wondering what lumber supply you worked at, now I know. I go in there all the time so I will ask for you, sent you a PM.

Unless I am circulating, they would need to call me down from upstairs.
I usually have set appointments or meetings. Saturdays, unless I have an appointment (lots of customers are starting to go that route), I will usually be on the floor.

You may want to think about tomorrow mid-day... they have a contractor cook-out with vendors coming in. Trex is one on the schedule.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

And after 55 years of being born and raised here... I have watched economic cycle after economic cycle. Those with a high networth generally survive, those with a high income but little to no networth generally suffer.

That is a very true statement, I couldn't agree more.

But, whether they survive long term, or earn fast and blow it in the long run, I'm still saying the people at the sandbar are on average a far wealthier group than an average group of citizens. I don't think bars and restaurants on the lake and The Dive will go out of business because there aren't enough people to buy $9 drinks and $34 steaks, if they do it's because they have a bad business model, or in the case of the past year something out of their control pushes them out.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LikeLakes

That is a very true statement, I couldn't agree more.

But, whether they survive long term, or earn fast and blow it in the long run, I'm still saying the people at the sandbar are on average a far wealthier group than an average group of citizens. I don't think bars and restaurants on the lake and The Dive will go out of business because there aren't enough people to buy $9 drinks and $34 steaks, if they do it's because they have a bad business model, or in the case of the past year something out of their control pushes them out.

A bad business model is when your customer base is where you are not. Do you think the Dive's customers are going to upgrade $18 drinks and $34 steaks, or downgrade to $2 beers and steaks/burgers off the grill of the nearby pontoon boat?

But the people that are currently earning the same as the sandbar group, but drinking the $2 beer and getting a burger off the barbie... they will not only keep going... they will have all the money they saved up to keep going.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Yes I have seen it at West Alton and your 4 - 5 boat estimate is way off, its huge.

Are you talking about 4 - 5 35' boats or 20' boats???

It probably displaces more than double your 4 - 5 boats estimate just around the parameter, let alone the actual footprint of its structure.

In a place like Braun it would have minimal impact, but somewhere like West Alton or ever worse the Paugas sandbar, its overwhelming!

Obviously it is not off. Take a look at the photo!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Obviously it is not off. Take a look at the photo!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Well looking at "that" picture it looks like you could easily fit 4 - 5 more boats just around the outside of the Dive where no one is anchored.

Guess it depends on of you are look at 20' bowriders or 37' cruisers

[Woodsy]

XCR....


If you look at the picture... the Dive is the ONLY one legally anchored!

Woodsy