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Old 06-12-2021, 01:44 PM   #1
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Default For those who still have 2-strokes

Mid August 2020, my 2002 175 h.p. 2-stroke completely blew up. I had the 175 about 5-6 years after my 1986 Force died after I hit a rock (yes a Force will last that long IF they are well maintained). I was dead set against a 4-stroke, I was going to get a used 2-stroke! I was a flat earth anti-vaxer of 4-strokes. Reason, the weight increase, insane money they were asking, cost to rework everything etc etc.
We rented a boat after the 175 died and went for a last hurrah of 2020…5 hours later I was convinced I was going to get a 4-stroke!
It went 2.3 mph…mine would not go that slow no matter how much money I spent trying!
Now 2021, the fuel savings, noise, smoke, smell, carrying mix oil, EASY start… no 2-step ritual, Vessel View blue tooth to the phone/tablet no instrument panel needed, and that is only after 2 days of using my new 150 4-stroke.
The 175 h.p Shep’s to Braun Bay used 5-6 gallons of gas day in and day out…
This past Thursday West Alton Marine to Shep’s 18 mph the whole way at ½ throttle used 3.25 gallons (Rough figure… 4 to 1 increase in fuel after 2 days, when I get a chance will re-crunch m.p.g. I think it maybe a little higher? )
W.O.T. is now a 20% increase in speed over the 175, and at W.O.T. I’m still 500 rpm’s under max with a 4-blade 19-pitch prop.
My biggest complaint of the 4-stroke… already tied up twice and got off with engine still running, you can’t hear it or feel it!
If you can afford it and still have a 2-stroke take it from a former flat earth anti-vaxer make the change I now wish I did it after the Force… oh well.
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Old 06-12-2021, 06:55 PM   #2
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Unhappy End of an Era...

Evinrude has shut their doors.
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Old 06-12-2021, 08:01 PM   #3
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Pics or it didn’t happen…
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Old 06-13-2021, 11:30 AM   #4
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Sometimes we pine away for the old tech, why did they have to stop making this or that. Not in this case, you are 100% right, 4 strokes are so superior in every way that I can't imagine anyone who owns one ever going back to a 2 stroke. I'll keep my old little 2 strokes for nostalgia, but that's about it.
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Old 06-14-2021, 12:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by LikeLakes View Post
Sometimes we pine away for the old tech, why did they have to stop making this or that. Not in this case, you are 100% right, 4 strokes are so superior in every way that I can't imagine anyone who owns one ever going back to a 2 stroke. I'll keep my old little 2 strokes for nostalgia, but that's about it.
Hummm,,,,

Not so fast,,,

All is still not equal and 2 stroke still has its own merits.

No question the 4 strokes have their own solid market, and when its a good fit its a good fit, but that is not universal.

Just like diesel was going to replace gasoline in passenger cars and now electric is the future,,, Well dont bet you last dollar on it.

2 strokes are not dead yet and neither are gasoline cars. And not just for nostalgic reasons, in both cases there a list of factors that will keep both going for a while.

As it is with too many things, the hype overtakes the reality and marketing convinces people to buy, but that does not mean what they want to sell you is whats actually best for everyone and in every situation.

I remember when mom got talked into buying a new Ford Pinto that the salesman said everyone would soon be buying one or maybe a Vega or a Plymouth Cricket because we were running out of gas and there would not be a drop of oil on earth by the year 2000! But the Pinto was the best car he said so she should buy it, AND she did! It was a total death trap pace of junk. Fast forward to today and two of the most popular vehicles are full size pickups and big SUV's and we have enough oil for an indefinite period of time.

The only real truth is the consumer that does his homework and buys what right for their situation is probably going to be the most satisfied customer. But any broad statements like 4 strokes are superior in every way are just hype, NOT fact.

But then its your money, so you can buy the hype and put on your best smile, or you can do the research and buy whats best for your application and really be happy.

No doubt others will have differing opinions.
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Old 06-14-2021, 12:42 PM   #6
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Nope Sorry not going to trade in my working 2 Stroke...
The smell, the shake, I love it reminds me that I am boating....
Sure I know that some day my 20+ year old engine is going to kick the bucket, and I will then get a 4 stroke..... But not before that time....
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Old 06-14-2021, 01:46 PM   #7
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Hummm,,,,

Not so fast,,,

All is still not equal and 2 stroke still has its own merits.

No question the 4 strokes have their own solid market, and when its a good fit its a good fit, but that is not universal.

Just like diesel was going to replace gasoline in passenger cars and now electric is the future,,, Well dont bet you last dollar on it.

2 strokes are not dead yet and neither are gasoline cars. And not just for nostalgic reasons, in both cases there a list of factors that will keep both going for a while.

As it is with too many things, the hype overtakes the reality and marketing convinces people to buy, but that does not mean what they want to sell you is whats actually best for everyone and in every situation.

I remember when mom got talked into buying a new Ford Pinto that the salesman said everyone would soon be buying one or maybe a Vega or a Plymouth Cricket because we were running out of gas and there would not be a drop of oil on earth by the year 2000! But the Pinto was the best car he said so she should buy it, AND she did! It was a total death trap pace of junk. Fast forward to today and two of the most popular vehicles are full size pickups and big SUV's and we have enough oil for an indefinite period of time.

The only real truth is the consumer that does his homework and buys what right for their situation is probably going to be the most satisfied customer. But any broad statements like 4 strokes are superior in every way are just hype, NOT fact.

But then its your money, so you can buy the hype and put on your best smile, or you can do the research and buy whats best for your application and really be happy.

No doubt others will have differing opinions.
So I'm reading what you are saying, and respect your opinion, but you didn't mention any merits of 2 strokes over 4 strokes? I get it that some will keep a 2 stroke because it's running well and works well, but as the above poster said then he'll replace it with a 4 stroke. What would be the reason for buying a 2 stroke in 2021?
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:41 PM   #8
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June 14, 2021: www.evinrude.com is running a last chance, clearance event on their Evinrude two-stroke outboards from 3.5 to 300-hp.

Betcha the name Evinrude gets attached to some new marine line of items with high value like Evinrude (unknown expensive boat or something) made/sold by Bombardier in Quebec, Canada. Those French Canadien heads are staying up late at night thinking what to do with their Evinrude brand name. Maybe, just sell the name to a Chinese company for 50-million dollars, or something?
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:00 PM   #9
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1) As for pics or it did not happen, if I can figure out a screen shot will the CC statement suffice?
2) As for keeping old stuff "just because" 1965-66? little then fishing w/ father behind the Alton cemetery with a kerosene lantern...still fish but use a battery operated one now...brighter & no smell.
3) As for merits of 2 or 4 stroke...I'm an end user of both, was committed to one but then "saw the wallet" and changed. I listed 7 upgrades/changes with my 4-stroke I'm all ears if you want to tell me what I missed with my 2-stroke?
4) As for nostalgic I had a model-T 175 (only need 7 tools to fix it) now I have a 150 Lambo (But you need a computer to fix it) but the Lambo gets better gas mileage?
5) As for Mom's Pinto, remember on the rear bottom fender and the door the
Pinto decal...what was under the decal?
MPG... due to the oil crises. All I'm saying is upgrade... MPG...saving $180-200 this year in 2-stroke oil. Early guesstimate on gas $300. Tune up unknown, cheapest in years was $385...usually $600 plus due to part replacements needed, I'm very nostalgic... about keeping money in my wallet.
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:25 PM   #10
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1) As for pics or it did not happen, if I can figure out a screen shot will the CC statement suffice?
2) As for keeping old stuff "just because" 1965-66? little then fishing w/ father behind the Alton cemetery with a kerosene lantern...still fish but use a battery operated one now...brighter & no smell.
3) As for merits of 2 or 4 stroke...I'm an end user of both, was committed to one but then "saw the wallet" and changed. I listed 7 upgrades/changes with my 4-stroke I'm all ears if you want to tell me what I missed with my 2-stroke?
4) As for nostalgic I had a model-T 175 (only need 7 tools to fix it) now I have a 150 Lambo (But you need a computer to fix it) but the Lambo gets better gas mileage?
5) As for Mom's Pinto, remember on the rear bottom fender and the door the
Pinto decal...what was under the decal?
MPG... due to the oil crises. All I'm saying is upgrade... MPG...saving $180-200 this year in 2-stroke oil. Early guesstimate on gas $300. Tune up unknown, cheapest in years was $385...usually $600 plus due to part replacements needed, I'm very nostalgic... about keeping money in my wallet.
But you are comparing your x-years old 2 - stroke to a brand new 4 - stroke, not a reasonable comparison.

I could tell you all the reasons a new 2 - stroke is better than an x-year old 4 - stroke when they first hit the market and anyone would say not valid.

You need to compare both as current model year engines on a boat where the differences like weight may have an impact (or not) and you will see each has its merits.

That 50+ Lbs - 100 Lb extra weight of the same horsepower 4 - stroke engine is an unacceptable problem on many bass/ski/sport/flats boats, where as on a 40' Formula its not even notable.

All is not equal, and 4 - strokes outboards are not a universal better option.

Maybe better in many cases, but not all.
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Old 06-15-2021, 04:46 AM   #11
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Thumbs down Government Got Ethanol Wrong--Especially for 2-Strokes...

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But you are comparing your x-years old 2 - stroke to a brand new 4 - stroke, not a reasonable comparison. I could tell you all the reasons a new 2 - stroke is better than an x-year old 4 - stroke when they first hit the market and anyone would say not valid.
You need to compare both as current model year engines on a boat where the differences like weight may have an impact (or not) and you will see each has its merits. That 50+ Lbs - 100 Lb extra weight of the same horsepower 4 - stroke engine is an unacceptable problem on many bass/ski/sport/flats boats, where as on a 40' Formula its not even notable. All is not equal, and 4 - strokes outboards are not a universal better option. Maybe better in many cases, but not all.
Inflatable boats require lighter engines. Even 20-foot sailboaters are looking for lightness among their 4-6 HP choices. Moving down to 3-HP compromises movement against current and tides.

Let's use the 2-strokes as mining, forming, and machining new motors are moving manufacturing overseas. (To our ultimate detriment).
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Old 06-15-2021, 07:51 AM   #12
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My Yamaha 115 sits on a transom that was designed for its weight.

It is quiet, clean and smooth.

But... I still love the smell of a two stroke in the morning!
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Old 06-15-2021, 09:10 PM   #13
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Inflatable boats require lighter engines. Even 20-foot sailboaters are looking for lightness among their 4-6 HP choices. Moving down to 3-HP compromises movement against current and tides.

Let's use the 2-strokes as mining, forming, and machining new motors are moving manufacturing overseas. (To our ultimate detriment).
I have a 19' sailboat and went with a 4 HP all electric Torqueedo. As XCR advises, I was careful to use the best motor for the specific need. The drawback of the electric is that it will only go 10 miles or so between charges, but that's plenty for a sailboat, and I LOVE never having to buy/handle gas and oil, the quiet is blissful, and there is absolutely zero maintenance.
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Old 06-16-2021, 04:37 AM   #14
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Question 5 HP: Price, Power, and Weight?

When weight is everything to a sailboat's efficiency, how does the price, power, and weight compare with dirt-cheap propane?

Battery packs aren't "forever".

https://www.powerequipmentdirect.com...RoClagQAvD_BwE
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Old 06-16-2021, 01:51 PM   #15
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When weight is everything to a sailboat's efficiency, how does the price, power, and weight compare with dirt-cheap propane?

Battery packs aren't "forever".

https://www.powerequipmentdirect.com...RoClagQAvD_BwE
Great questions! I cant remember the specs, and I think my exact model is discontinued, but from looking at your link, I'm pretty sure that for 4 HP or so electric is more expensive, but much less weight than the propane (maybe 30-40 lbs instead of 80 lbs inc fuel). Battery life is excellent (no apparent degradation in 5 years) and the battery is replaceable when it dies.
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Old 06-16-2021, 02:28 PM   #16
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I'm not sure of the exact model Torqueedo we are talking about, but I believe it would be over $3,000. It is amazing tech, no question about it.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:18 AM   #17
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Default 2 stroke vs 4

When power to weight ratio is important....2 stroke wins.
My 800cc snowmobiles are 170HP and the motor weighs 60-70lbs
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:06 PM   #18
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So I'm reading what you are saying, and respect your opinion, but you didn't mention any merits of 2 strokes over 4 strokes? I get it that some will keep a 2 stroke because it's running well and works well, but as the above poster said then he'll replace it with a 4 stroke. What would be the reason for buying a 2 stroke in 2021?
2 - Stroke Engine Pros:

Less weight, and for some boats thats critical.

Smaller physical size and again for some boats thats critical.

Far less parts, so if you have an out of warranty problem significantly less expensive to fix.

Less parts generally means more reliable.

Less electronics, and in a wet environment that is always a plus and its a major plus later in the motors life as the electronics age and fail regardless of the wet environment.

More torque/faster acceleration, again for some boats thats critical.

2 - Stroke engines generally provide longer high RPM service life. 4 - Stroke engines are not normally suited for thousands of hours running at 5000+ RPM, just look at the cruising RPM of most sterndrive motors, as opposed to outboard.

On current model 2 - stroke engines the operational maintenance costs are similar to 4 - stroke motors as modern 2 - stroke use significantly less oil and spark plugs than their predecessors.

Less initial cost. (speaks for itself)

I dont think I need to keep going,,,

Again, not knocking 4 - strokes, just saying 2 - strokes are not dead yet and each has its pros and cons. Buy whats right for your use and application and you will be a happy boater.
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:30 PM   #19
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XCR-700, all good points and thank you for the reply. I agree with some, weight and size and simplicity and # parts in particular. But I think you may be a bit out of date with some of the advancements in 4 strokes. They will run all day at WOT, torque and acceleration are pretty close to on a par with 2 strokes, and in terms of reliability I simply don't hear of any of my 4 stroke owning friends having issues.

BTW I don't have any skin in the game, like I said have some old 2 strokes (late '50's Evinrude 3, 1961 Evinrude 40, mid '70's Evinrude 6) and don't own any others.
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:01 PM   #20
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XCR-700, all good points and thank you for the reply. I agree with some, weight and size and simplicity and # parts in particular. But I think you may be a bit out of date with some of the advancements in 4 strokes. They will run all day at WOT, torque and acceleration are pretty close to on a par with 2 strokes, and in terms of reliability I simply don't hear of any of my 4 stroke owning friends having issues.

BTW I don't have any skin in the game, like I said have some old 2 strokes (late '50's Evinrude 3, 1961 Evinrude 40, mid '70's Evinrude 6) and don't own any others.
I totally agree they will run all day at full throttle, but how many hours in total before failure or they suffer a noticeable decrease in power vs the same HP engine in 2 - stroke running at that speed.

Basically start both motors, run them at 5000 RPM only stop for the 4 stroke engines oil changes and then continue the test and I seriously doubt the 4 - stroke will last as long as the 2 - stroke before something goes wrong. The timing chain and cam and lifters will fail long before the 2 - stroke motor will have problems.

You commonly find old 2 - stroke outboards from the 60's and 70's still going strong and commercial fisherman running Yamaha OX-66 motors with countless thousands of hours on them.

Do you really believe we will see the same lifespan from the 4 - stroke engines? I'm not betting on it,,,

Oh, and as far as "skin in the game" well count me out, our current Formula has a stern-drive,,,

BUT,,, I still have my Yamaha V-Max on my Glastron CVX waiting for a full boat refurb, well except for the motor which will last forever because its a 2 - stroke ;-) (oh and I still have my 6 HP Chrysler on the rowboat, and I feel certain that will live forever!)
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:14 PM   #21
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Funny you say that about the 6, I feel the same way. It can sit in the cellar for a year without use, I clamp it on the transom and a few pulls and it's running. Reminds me of my youth every time I run it.

Post a picture of your CVX sometime, love those boats. I considered a Pantera a few years ago with a pair of 225 2-strokes on it, another example of a boat better off running 2-strokes.

I don't know the answer to that longevity test you suggest. For a commercial operator it would be important, for a northeast US recreational boater I'm not sure it would matter, with the few hours most of us put on our boats in a season.
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Old 06-14-2021, 06:11 PM   #22
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Old 06-14-2021, 07:08 PM   #23
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I just love the looks of those. CVX's and some other Carlson designs are still, to me, some of the best looking boats of their time. That has to fly with the 225, plus pretty much leave the water when you hammer it from a stop.
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Old 06-14-2021, 07:57 PM   #24
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I just love the looks of those. CVX's and some other Carlson designs are still, to me, some of the best looking boats of their time. That has to fly with the 225, plus pretty much leave the water when you hammer it from a stop.
I think it would still be a good design today with a few mods, maybe stretch it like 3 - 4 feet, add a foot to the sides but keep the overall look and then add a U-shaped rear seat.

Everyone wants bow-riders these days, and they make sense in many ways, but having someone sitting in front of you while driving is not fun. I really prefer the closed bow/cockpit forward design. I find it interesting that Chris-Craft still keeps this design.

Well next time one of the boat manufacturers ask me for my opinion, I'll try to remember my own ideas

Oh, and I'll see if they can balance it out to use a heavy-ass 4 stroke on the back
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:25 PM   #25
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As long as you have twin 450 hp outboards ....

What you are describing, without the extra foot of beam, is pretty much a 24 Pantera or similar 24x7 boat. While I like bowriders for certain types of boats I'm in agreement with you about closed bow on performance and classic boats, also the practicality of not worrying as much about taking some water over the bow on a big lake like Winni.

Is your CVX a 20?
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Old 06-14-2021, 10:28 PM   #26
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One point I meant to add about modern 4-strokes .... and to be honest I don't know if this feature is available on 2-strokes, but I doubt it - a friend of mine with a Merc 150 4-stroke uses the trolling feature that lets him idle down to something like 350 rpm. The modern engine management systems are amazing.
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Old 06-22-2021, 05:26 PM   #27
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One point I meant to add about modern 4-strokes .... and to be honest I don't know if this feature is available on 2-strokes, but I doubt it - a friend of mine with a Merc 150 4-stroke uses the trolling feature that lets him idle down to something like 350 rpm. The modern engine management systems are amazing.
At this point it is likely that this can be achieve with a two stroke as well. The problem is companies don't want to keep adding new features to a market that is no longer their bread and butter....

4 Strokes are taking over the outboard Market, and that is something us 2 stoke fans have to live with. Companies aren't investing in research and development for 2 Strokes, it doesn't make sense. The Pontoon / Tri-toon market as well as the need for I/O motors to be CARB compliant, and have catalytic converters, has redirected R&D money into bigger stronger quieter outboards..... to drive the boating market forward........
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Old 06-14-2021, 11:46 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by LikeLakes View Post
As long as you have twin 450 hp outboards ....

What you are describing, without the extra foot of beam, is pretty much a 24 Pantera or similar 24x7 boat. While I like bowriders for certain types of boats I'm in agreement with you about closed bow on performance and classic boats, also the practicality of not worrying as much about taking some water over the bow on a big lake like Winni.

Is your CVX a 20?
Yes its a 20'

Sadly its in need of a full rebuild and it will need to sit a couple of more years until retirement before I can get to it.
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Old 06-15-2021, 08:02 AM   #29
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Mid August 2020, my 2002 175 h.p. 2-stroke completely blew up. I had the 175 about 5-6 years after my 1986 Force died after I hit a rock (yes a Force will last that long IF they are well maintained). I was dead set against a 4-stroke, I was going to get a used 2-stroke! I was a flat earth anti-vaxer of 4-strokes. Reason, the weight increase, insane money they were asking, cost to rework everything etc etc.
We rented a boat after the 175 died and went for a last hurrah of 2020…5 hours later I was convinced I was going to get a 4-stroke!
It went 2.3 mph…mine would not go that slow no matter how much money I spent trying!
Now 2021, the fuel savings, noise, smoke, smell, carrying mix oil, EASY start… no 2-step ritual, Vessel View blue tooth to the phone/tablet no instrument panel needed, and that is only after 2 days of using my new 150 4-stroke.
The 175 h.p Shep’s to Braun Bay used 5-6 gallons of gas day in and day out…
This past Thursday West Alton Marine to Shep’s 18 mph the whole way at ½ throttle used 3.25 gallons (Rough figure… 4 to 1 increase in fuel after 2 days, when I get a chance will re-crunch m.p.g. I think it maybe a little higher? )
W.O.T. is now a 20% increase in speed over the 175, and at W.O.T. I’m still 500 rpm’s under max with a 4-blade 19-pitch prop.
My biggest complaint of the 4-stroke… already tied up twice and got off with engine still running, you can’t hear it or feel it!
If you can afford it and still have a 2-stroke take it from a former flat earth anti-vaxer make the change I now wish I did it after the Force… oh well.
Welcome to the future... actually I owned my first 4 stroke Honda in 2004 so it's really not the future any longer. Best thing I ever did!
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Old 06-15-2021, 08:58 AM   #30
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Go to www.tohatsu.com and look around their website.

It looks like Tohatsu makes four-stroke outboards for the United States and two-stroke outboards for other areas around the world?
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Old 06-15-2021, 09:12 AM   #31
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Go to www.tohatsu.com and look around their website.

It looks like Tohatsu makes four-stroke outboards for the United States and two-stroke outboards for other areas around the world?
Yamaha is the same, for those who want simple and not needing a dealers computer to trouble shoot it, they are still offering up to 200 HP with carb and pre-mix overseas. It will throw more smoke and burn more oil and gas than an EFI 4 stroke, but will probably last forever if treated reasonably and wont require a $200 minimum diagnostic charge by the dealer anytime something goes wrong.
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:15 AM   #32
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Go to www.tohatsu.com and look around their website.

It looks like Tohatsu makes four-stroke outboards for the United States and two-stroke outboards for other areas around the world?
Interestingly Tohatsu makes all of Mercuries small outboards up to I believe 60 hp and Honda makes all of Tohatsu's 150-250 hp outboards.
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:48 AM   #33
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last year i bought a small 14 foot lowe fishing boat, was all excited to have a 4 stroke 25hp on the back (hp to allow the kids to use to learn) boat can hold up to a 30hp and they say 4 stroke weight.
The 25hp 4 stroke Merc is way to heavy for the boat, by about 50-75lbs vs a 25hp 2 stroke. I love the 4 but it is not right for the set up. i have got it to max performance with a 8 pitch prop, but I still have to on most days stand up in front of the helm to get the front down by myself and once it gets there its fine at top end, but with two people on the boat, you would like I was dragging an anchor.

in fact if someone had a 2 stroke Merc 25hp with power trim I would probably do a straight up trade.

I do agree however that it depends on the application 2 stroke v. 4 stroke
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Old 06-15-2021, 06:40 PM   #34
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I don't understand why it has to be an "either or" thing for some people. Just like 4 strokes, 2 stroke technology has come a long way as well in the last few years. They're quieter, smoke less, and burn much less oil than ever before. I would hate to see 2 strokes discontinued altogether for the sake of 4 strokes. The more choices the better!! It's the same with fuel. Some people want to ban fossil fuels altogether for the sake of wind, electric, and solar power. Why can't we have all three??? It shouldn't be an "either or" thing. The more choices the better IMHO.
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Old 06-16-2021, 05:37 AM   #35
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I don't understand why it has to be an "either or" thing for some people. Just like 4 strokes, 2 stroke technology has come a long way as well in the last few years. They're quieter, smoke less, and burn much less oil than ever before. I would hate to see 2 strokes discontinued altogether for the sake of 4 strokes. The more choices the better!! It's the same with fuel. Some people want to ban fossil fuels altogether for the sake of wind, electric, and solar power. Why can't we have all three??? It shouldn't be an "either or" thing. The more choices the better IMHO.
Meant to say, "why can't we have all four" types of energy, not three. The more choices the better!!
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Old 06-16-2021, 09:11 AM   #36
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Default ...... rowing sailboat vs motor sailboat

For a 12' sailboat that weighs about 125-lbs, or a 14' sailboat that weighs about 225-lbs, the best two-stroke engine is two wood oars, about 6.5 or 7' length.

Putting a motor on a small sailboat changes everything including its registration and insurance, and with two oars, it keeps you positioned in the center of the boat for best rowing stability. Plus, it gives you something to do while you wait for the wind to pick up, you get to row.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Cal Coon View Post
Meant to say, "why can't we have all four" types of energy, not three. The more choices the better!!
OXE makes a diesel outboard engine.
'Don't know if there are any 2-stroke diesel outboards.
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Old 06-22-2021, 02:12 PM   #38
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OXE makes a diesel outboard engine.
'Don't know if there are any 2-stroke diesel outboards.
Also very cool package and performance, from what I've read. But ..... close to $50,000 for a 200 and $65,000 for a 300 with accessories, you have to want one pretty bad.
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