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Old 03-21-2018, 09:17 AM   #1
CaptT820
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Default Move it or Not?

We bought our camp 3 years ago and thought we knew where our property lines were. The neighbor had their septic redone and thus had it surveyed. they found out that the property lines were not where everyone thought they were and they shifted diagonally. Our camp (which is only 12-ft by 20-ft) is now 10-feet onto the opposite neighbors property (east side). Luckily for us, the east side neighbor is just vacant land, for now.

So the issue up for debate is do we move the structure so it is compliant (it would need to be moved 20-feet west) or do we get a lot line adjustment with the neighbor? I'm weary about going the adjustment direction because if they ever decide to build then our structure would only be 10-feet away from their structure (potentially). This is of course assuming the neighbor was okay with even granting the lot line adjustment in the first place.
Obviously going the other direction would require us to move the building, which can be done, but is not ideal either.

Any thoughts or opinions on this would be great. Thanks
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:23 AM   #2
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The neighbor had their septic redone and thus had it surveyed.


Is it possible the neighbor’s surveyor made an error? Perhaps it would be worthwhile to verify the survey.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:23 AM   #3
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How long has your camp been in its current location? May be a case for adverse possession, which I think NH requires that it be in its current location for 20 years. Not a lawyer, so don't know for sure.

http://www.nhpublaw.org/nh.law.about/law/109

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:24 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by CaptT820 View Post
We bought our camp 3 years ago and thought we knew where our property lines were. The neighbor had their septic redone and thus had it surveyed. they found out that the property lines were not where everyone thought they were and they shifted diagonally. Our camp (which is only 12-ft by 20-ft) is now 10-feet onto the opposite neighbors property (east side). Luckily for us, the east side neighbor is just vacant land, for now.

So the issue up for debate is do we move the structure so it is compliant (it would need to be moved 20-feet west) or do we get a lot line adjustment with the neighbor? I'm weary about going the adjustment direction because if they ever decide to build then our structure would only be 10-feet away from their structure (potentially). This is of course assuming the neighbor was okay with even granting the lot line adjustment in the first place.
Obviously going the other direction would require us to move the building, which can be done, but is not ideal either.

Any thoughts or opinions on this would be great. Thanks
Was there a survey completed when you purchased the camp? If so did you take out any title insurance? The cost to relocate the building may be insured.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:25 AM   #5
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Let me get this straight. You bought a camp on a piece of land, but the camp itself that you purchased was not actually on the land that you own?

I would get my own survey, then put a call into the agent that sold it to you and the person you bought it from. Did you purchase title insurance?
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:51 AM   #6
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I've went through something similar several years ago. Most (if not all) title insurance policies do not cover boundary line issues.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:09 AM   #7
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I've went through something similar several years ago. Most (if not all) title insurance policies do not cover boundary line issues.
There are 2 types- an owners and a lenders policy. An owners policy may help, as it covers errors and omissions. If it was represented as on your land and it isn't, this becomes a deed issue.

I am not in the insurance field, but would certainly investigate further.

Regardless, I rather nasty call to the previous owner and the agent would be in order. If the agent represented it as on your land and it wasn't, that could hit their E&O insurance.

Someone is at fault here....

What is the cost to move the camp over?
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:29 AM   #8
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There are 2 types- an owners and a lenders policy. An owners policy may help, as it covers errors and omissions. If it was represented as on your land and it isn't, this becomes a deed issue.

I am not in the insurance field, but would certainly investigate further.

Regardless, I rather nasty call to the previous owner and the agent would be in order. If the agent represented it as on your land and it wasn't, that could hit their E&O insurance.

Someone is at fault here....

What is the cost to move the camp over?
I had both policies - neither one would cover boundary issues. Either way, it's a sticky, difficult situation that will cost someone money!
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:32 AM   #9
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if it is wrong, then the title and deed researchers could be on the hook here. They are supposed to research to confirm there is no issue with land boundaries and property transfers. I have seen twice this be the case and this where someone would go to move.

You also have to think about the taxes on this as well, have you been paying taxes on land/building you don't own???
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:17 AM   #10
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Unless a survey was performed at the time of issuance of the Policy, it is very likely that the policy contains a so-called survey exception, such as:


“Encroachments, overlaps, boundary line disputes, or other matters which would be disclosed by an accurate survey or inspection of the premises.”
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:26 AM   #11
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I would get my own survey first. You will need that as proof going forward. If the camp doesn't have a foundation then now maybe the time to put one in and move the camp. You will probably have to consult a lawyer and file a law suite to get reimbursed. Either way it's going cost you out of pocket first.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:56 AM   #12
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Is this waterfront? if the answer is yes, you are in a spot that may not have a happy ending, and assuming you do not need to invest in the building itself, you might just want to let the sleeping dog lie.

In a non waterfront spot, it is easy to see how two neighbors might agree to change a diagonal property line by pivoting the line a few degrees on a spot in the center of the property. But if you are on the water, then virtually all of the value of the land is at one end of the properties, so pivoting the line in the center becomes a real issue with respect to value, and you probably end up proposing to by a piece of your neighbor's yard that he probably does not want to sell.

In any case, I would try to envision the happy solution for both sides before you reveal your problem to anyone you might up up negotiating with.

Good luck!
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CaptT820 View Post
We bought our camp 3 years ago and thought we knew where our property lines were. The neighbor had their septic redone and thus had it surveyed. they found out that the property lines were not where everyone thought they were and they shifted diagonally. Our camp (which is only 12-ft by 20-ft) is now 10-feet onto the opposite neighbors property (east side). Luckily for us, the east side neighbor is just vacant land, for now.

So the issue up for debate is do we move the structure so it is compliant (it would need to be moved 20-feet west) or do we get a lot line adjustment with the neighbor? I'm weary about going the adjustment direction because if they ever decide to build then our structure would only be 10-feet away from their structure (potentially). This is of course assuming the neighbor was okay with even granting the lot line adjustment in the first place.
Obviously going the other direction would require us to move the building, which can be done, but is not ideal either.

Any thoughts or opinions on this would be great. Thanks
While some others have freely commented here, I don't think thus far you have given enough detail to full understand what you are dealing with.

The first thing I would ask would be with the recent survey, what did they use as a initial reference point, to start the survey?

Once that is understood, I would then look back at the history of your property and understand a few things such as:
1. Did your plot, and its surrounding plots all come from the same large plot that was sub-divided once upon a time. Or are you looking at a situation where two or more larger plots where sub-divded and you are in the boundary area.
2. When did your structure come into existence, and for tax purposes, become part of your property tax? This will establish that your structure did truly belong to your property.
3. When question two is understood, you can also look into the property tax bill for the adjacent property and makes sure you building was never considered part of that property previously.

I am sure I can come up with more. But property lines are mysterious things... and things like this come up. You may find that the survayer didn't start with a valid reference point, and thus, your current survey results are not valid...

There is a lot to research here. And if you current neighbor is not complaining, I would take the time to do the research, before jumping to any rash decisions. Running out and getting lawyers involved two quickly is going to cost you money in the long run... so see what you can get accomplished up front yourself, unless someone is already causing trouble for you.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:59 PM   #14
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When I had my new septic installed, I had a survey done by the septic designer. Luckily his work was identical to a licensed engineer surveyor who followed very shortly, as we need the second survey for a building addition. So there may have been an error made. The first step should be to collect a copy of the survey that has indicated the questionable line. Your neighbor can provide it or you can get a copy at your town hall. Second, depending on the town, the assessing department may have a copy of the original plot plans for your lot and others....get this plan or you can usually get it from the Registry of Deeds. Take these plans plus a copy of your current deed to a licensed surveyor and have them resurvey your land, place interim stakes along the boundary in question so you can se the line close to your house, and make sure they put their engineer stamp on the plan. Depending on the results, you may be off to a lawyer who deals in land issues...you don't want a trust and estates lawyer. Keep us posted of your progress.......
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:34 PM   #15
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Buy the land you're encroaching on and crack open a beer!

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Old 03-21-2018, 04:57 PM   #16
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Default Try Adverse Possession

I would research the adverse possession angle first. If you contact the previous owners and they have been using the land for close to twenty years prior to your purchase three years ago that could be an avenue that would work. The down side to that is if it causes a rift between you and your neighbor. Since it is vacant land at this time it may present the ideal opportunity.

You can establish adverse possession based on the use of the land by prior owners, though it can be more difficult to establish the necessary evidence. It is easiest if you have the previous owners available to testify about their use of the land.

In addition to adverse possession, there is also a theory known as boundary by acquiescence, where if property owners have recognized a certain boundary for twenty years as being the true boundary, it can cause the boundary to be changed. It is similar to adverse possession, but the facts you have to prove vary a little.
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:58 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by winni83 View Post
Unless a survey was performed at the time of issuance of the Policy, it is very likely that the policy contains a so-called survey exception, such as:


“Encroachments, overlaps, boundary line disputes, or other matters which would be disclosed by an accurate survey or inspection of the premises.”
Yep... don't forget + or -, more or less! If the building has been there for 20 years without anyone complaining adverse possession will come into play. Many people have lost property to others as long as it's been hostile, open, and continuous. If the building hasn't been there for that long it might make more sense to shut your mouth and say nothing! Otherwise it will cost you a lot of heartache! Then again they might sell you the land it's now located on... good luck
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:04 PM   #18
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I would research the adverse possession angle first. If you contact the previous owners and they have been using the land for close to twenty years prior to your purchase three years ago that could be an avenue that would work. The down side to that is if it causes a rift between you and your neighbor. Since it is vacant land at this time it may present the ideal opportunity.

You can establish adverse possession based on the use of the land by prior owners, though it can be more difficult to establish the necessary evidence. It is easiest if you have the previous owners available to testify about their use of the land.

In addition to adverse possession, there is also a theory known as boundary by acquiescence, where if property owners have recognized a certain boundary for twenty years as being the true boundary, it can cause the boundary to be changed. It is similar to adverse possession, but the facts you have to prove vary a little.
You are correct about the boundary line agreement. Here is the NH Supreme Court case regarding same:

https://www.courts.state.nh.us/supre...207/dow070.htm
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:17 PM   #19
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Surveyors may use different points of reference when making there measurements. I had a boundary surveyed recently and the findings were different than the previous owner. It turns out the builder's surveyor did not use the markers (pipe in stone) that were placed when the subdivision was originally created. Original markers can be buried or otherwise difficult to find.
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:02 AM   #20
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Thank you for all of the responses on this as I was a bit overwhelmed but not surprise due to the complexity of this issue. To answer everyone's questions here we go:

1- Not to further complicate things, but both of the previous owners have passed on as they were in their late 80's early 90's.

3- The previous owners owned the camp from 1972-2015 and bought it after the Castlewood Corporation divested the island into individual parcels.

4- We are on Sleepers Island, so it is waterfront.

5- According to the tax deed the camp was built in 1910. I am a construction engineer by trade and know this is false. Based on our knowledge and materials of the current camp it was most likely built around 1965-1966.

6-The camp is of the size that I could literally move it myself with some physics and engineering involved. I would prefer not to, but could if needed.

7-The neighbor we have encroached upon does not appear to want to sell the vacant land anytime soon, but we all know that could change. If they sell it we would try to buy it, but that could be decades from now.

8- We have contacted the real estate agent who sold us the property. They didn't give us much to go on and suggested that we try to get a lot line adjustment with the neighbor.

We could like to get out of this with as little difficulty as possible, obviously, so from the forum responses it sounds like we'll have to get our own survey completed. I was hoping to avoid this due to cost, but it looks like that's what will need to happen. I also have checked the survey that was done and it appears that it is correct, unfortunately.
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:09 AM   #21
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Honestly, since you "could move it yourself," it sounds like you should/should have just let it be and deal with it only when it's a real problem. Especially since there's little to back things up either way.

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Old 03-22-2018, 10:12 AM   #22
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Sounds to me the land has been acquired through adverse possessions!
A building has be placed on the land for over 20 years including someone other than the land owner paying taxes without notice.
I'd do nothing if I were you...
https://www.nashualaw.com/adverse-po...new-hampshire/
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:25 PM   #23
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Have you looked for the survey markers / pins on the corners of your lot?
If you can find them you'd be able to answer a lot of questions yourself.
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:57 PM   #24
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I like the adverse possession angle. We fit the law to a T in that case.

As far as the corner pins go. We know where they all are, unfortunately on an island it is easy to have a line that you thought was straight, actually be a diagonal which is our case. It turns out that the neighbor who had the survey done had been using their land for 15-years without even knowing exactly where the lot lines were. We were all looking at the pins and connecting the dots, but due to topography it was easy to mistake a straight line in the wrong place.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:33 PM   #25
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That is one reason I suggested a professional survey and make sure the surveyor places interim stakes along the property lines....like every 100 feet. Easy to do while they have the equipment there. Going from corner to corner is difficult. We did an approximation on our long side line. Fairly simple, but amazingly effective. When the leaves are off everything, went out in early evening when it was just getting dark. Had a person stand at one stake with a bright flashlight. Had another person stand at the other stake on the line we wanted to evaluate, then have a third person walk toward the line and watch to see when they break the light. Light only needs to be seen...you do not have to have it so the middle person is lit up....just enough to see they are breaking the light. A laser light works really well if you have one. We did this and came within 6 inches of the actual line by the surveyor. If the terrain is very tough. put the flashlight on a pole and hold it plumb.

Last edited by tummyman; 03-22-2018 at 06:34 PM. Reason: spelling/typo error
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:19 PM   #26
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So the camp has been in place for more than 20 years. The neighbor who may have owned the land where the camp is, hasn't complained, or asked you to sign an agreement recognizing that there is a question about boundaries, right?
In my experience, we don't have lot line squabbles until a new owner moves in with city expectations, and can't get along with others. Take off your engineers hat, pop a beer with your neighbor and if it comes up in the future, two friends can find a solution.
Years ago, I found a handwritten P & S between my father and a neighbor for a vacant lot. It was thirteen years before the deal was consummated because they couldn't agree on whether a guest cottage (or two) could be built or not. In the meantime, we used the land, the owner paid the taxes, and the kids all played together. Land squabbles belong on the mainland, not on an island.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:01 PM   #27
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So the camp has been in place for more than 20 years. The neighbor who may have owned the land where the camp is, hasn't complained, or asked you to sign an agreement recognizing that there is a question about boundaries, right?
In my experience, we don't have lot line squabbles until a new owner moves in with city expectations, and can't get along with others. Take off your engineers hat, pop a beer with your neighbor and if it comes up in the future, two friends can find a solution.
Years ago, I found a handwritten P & S between my father and a neighbor for a vacant lot. It was thirteen years before the deal was consummated because they couldn't agree on whether a guest cottage (or two) could be built or not. In the meantime, we used the land, the owner paid the taxes, and the kids all played together. Land squabbles belong on the mainland, not on an island.
Amen to that Descant! Well said!

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Old 03-23-2018, 07:12 AM   #28
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I'm not looking to create any issues with the neighbor who owns the vacant lot, but being that it is vacant makes us nervous that they will sell it to someone who may become a problem in the future, so we are trying to protect ourselves. We also would like to build a new camp and use the old one as a bunkhouse. The new camp will obviously have to be completely on our property, so a survey will ultimately be required regardless.

Based on other members responses I think our route will be to leave the camp where it is, claim adverse possession if need be, and get a survey for the property for the future camp. Sure as heck beats having to move it.
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:18 AM   #29
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That an excellent plan. Wish you the best of luck.


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Old 03-23-2018, 08:42 AM   #30
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All-
I'm not looking to create any issues with the neighbor who owns the vacant lot, but being that it is vacant makes us nervous that they will sell it to someone who may become a problem in the future, so we are trying to protect ourselves. We also would like to build a new camp and use the old one as a bunkhouse. The new camp will obviously have to be completely on our property, so a survey will ultimately be required regardless.

Based on other members responses I think our route will be to leave the camp where it is, claim adverse possession if need be, and get a survey for the property for the future camp. Sure as heck beats having to move it.
I think a new survey requested and paid for by you is a must. Then you can make your future decisions based on that information. If you're going to build a new camp the survey will be needed anyway so it's money well spent.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:07 AM   #31
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Not trying to be critical of the OP here, but in general I think adverse possession is BS. If you own the land you own the land, nobody should be able to stake claim on it just because they have been using it for years, possibly without your knowledge.

We looked at a place on Loon Cove years back, the owners had passed away and the property was owned by the heirs who did not live in the area, who were trying to sell. There was a small dock in the back of the cove on this particular parcel that was being used by someone across the street. I was told, according to the realtor that the person across the street claims they had been given permission many years ago to use the dock and there was some sort of handshake agreement. The person was planning on claiming adverse possession should the property have sold, and it would have turned into a legal battle. To top it off, the person across the street I was told was in town politics.

We ended up passing. Didn't need the BS, or the scorn going forward if we fought it and won.

We recently purchased a small vacant island lot. It hasn't been used in years due to health issues with the previous owner. Luckily all of the abutters purchased recently as well, as we'd possibly be dealing with people thinking it was their "open space"

When you are buying property, especially in tight quarters it is important to get a survey. We are having ours done as soon as ice is out. All corners are clearly marked on it already and we were clear when we bought it what was what, as we did the shoreland plan as part of the purchase. The lines were shot as part of this, just not staked off.

Some states require a survey as part of the purchase process. I believe when my parents sold a home in VA a while back they had to complete one prior to closing.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:16 AM   #32
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Not trying to be critical of the OP here, but in general I think adverse possession is BS. If you own the land you own the land, nobody should be able to stake claim on it just because they have been using it for years, possibly without your knowledge.

We looked at a place on Loon Cove years back, the owners had passed away and the property was owned by the heirs who did not live in the area, who were trying to sell. There was a small dock in the back of the cove on this particular parcel that was being used by someone across the street. I was told, according to the realtor that the person across the street claims they had been given permission many years ago to use the dock and there was some sort of handshake agreement. The person was planning on claiming adverse possession should the property have sold, and it would have turned into a legal battle. To top it off, the person across the street I was told was in town politics.

We ended up passing. Didn't need the BS, or the scorn going forward if we fought it and won.

We recently purchased a small vacant island lot. It hasn't been used in years due to health issues with the previous owner. Luckily all of the abutters purchased recently as well, as we'd possibly be dealing with people thinking it was their "open space"

When you are buying property, especially in tight quarters it is important to get a survey. We are having ours done as soon as ice is out. All corners are clearly marked on it already and we were clear when we bought it what was what, as we did the shoreland plan as part of the purchase. The lines were shot as part of this, just not staked off.

Some states require a survey as part of the purchase process. I believe when my parents sold a home in VA a while back they had to complete one prior to closing.
That's a sticky subject. It's like a town taking property by eminent domain, it shouldn't be legal but it is. You were smart to stay away from that property unless you could negotiate a much lower price to recoup legal fees.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:30 AM   #33
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That's a sticky subject. It's like a town taking property by eminent domain, it shouldn't be legal but it is. You were smart to stay away from that property unless you could negotiate a much lower price to recoup legal fees.

I don't think you can claim land if the owner DIDN'T KNOW about it. I could be wrong. We went through this recently with an abutter who thought our land was his or said he did. I hate eminent domain. It should not be legal, you are right! The biggest problem is they don't want to pay you what it is worth even if you did want to sell it to them.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:45 AM   #34
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Not trying to be critical of the OP here, but in general I think adverse possession is BS. If you own the land you own the land, nobody should be able to stake claim on it just because they have been using it for years, possibly without your knowledge.

We looked at a place on Loon Cove years back, the owners had passed away and the property was owned by the heirs who did not live in the area, who were trying to sell. There was a small dock in the back of the cove on this particular parcel that was being used by someone across the street. I was told, according to the realtor that the person across the street claims they had been given permission many years ago to use the dock and there was some sort of handshake agreement. The person was planning on claiming adverse possession should the property have sold, and it would have turned into a legal battle. To top it off, the person across the street I was told was in town politics.

We ended up passing. Didn't need the BS, or the scorn going forward if we fought it and won.

We recently purchased a small vacant island lot. It hasn't been used in years due to health issues with the previous owner. Luckily all of the abutters purchased recently as well, as we'd possibly be dealing with people thinking it was their "open space"

When you are buying property, especially in tight quarters it is important to get a survey. We are having ours done as soon as ice is out. All corners are clearly marked on it already and we were clear when we bought it what was what, as we did the shoreland plan as part of the purchase. The lines were shot as part of this, just not staked off.

Some states require a survey as part of the purchase process. I believe when my parents sold a home in VA a while back they had to complete one prior to closing.
Would it make a difference if someone else was paying the taxes for over 20 years?? In order that adverse possession ripen into legal title, nonpermissive use by the adverse claimant that is actual, open and notorious, exclusive, hostile, and continuous for the statutory period must be established. All of these elements must coexist if title is to be acquired by adverse possession. The character, location, present state of the land, and the uses to which it is put are evaluated in each case. The adverse claimant has the burden of proving each element by a preponderance of the evidence.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:07 AM   #35
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Codeman I agree with you that Adverse Possession sounds like BS. I'm just trying to follow the law. I think a 55mph highway speed limit is BS too, but when you get pulled over the cop doesn't care because that's the law.

I think for now we will get the survey done, place the new building on our known property and if at some point down the line we have to move the existing building then we will. I would really rather not move it until we have to. As mentioned earlier, this may be a moot point if the neighbor never develops their property, or if they go to sell it and we end up buying it.

Any recommendations for qualified surveyors out there?

Thx
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:35 AM   #36
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Codeman I agree with you that Adverse Possession sounds like BS. I'm just trying to follow the law. I think a 55mph highway speed limit is BS too, but when you get pulled over the cop doesn't care because that's the law.

I think for now we will get the survey done, place the new building on our known property and if at some point down the line we have to move the existing building then we will. I would really rather not move it until we have to. As mentioned earlier, this may be a moot point if the neighbor never develops their property, or if they go to sell it and we end up buying it.

Any recommendations for qualified surveyors out there?

Thx
We are using Craig Bailey out of Gilford. Bailey Associates/Turning Point Land Surveyors to do ours, at the recommendation of others on the forum.
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:43 PM   #37
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Thanks Codeman. I got a quote from him, which I thought was quite high, so I’m shopping around for a good surveyor. Just want to do my due diligence.
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:45 PM   #38
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Get a GOOD attorney ASAP.

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Looking forward to returning from California this weekend.

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I am a retired workaholic and continuing aquaholic.
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:24 PM   #39
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I have used Steve Smith and Associates for several things. His office is on Lily Pond road in Gilford. He is a nice guy and a straight shooter.

http://www.sjsincnh.com

Within the past two weeks I was told by the City of Laconia that their sewer line ran through my property, right where a new building was going to go. They even sent me a plan and an aerial photo with the sewer line shown on it.

Steve Smith said they were wrong and the plan they had sent me was wrong. He sent two men to my land to confirm it and then contacted the city and told them their plan was wrong. He gave them a new plan with the sewer line correctly located on it.
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:05 PM   #40
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Get a GOOD attorney ASAP.
I agree with Woody.. As stated earlier, Stop being an engineer and counting blocks. Get a lawyer who specializes in this type of stuff, not just somebody who says s/he does real estate law. On our island (Welch) land transfers occur without surveys when both parties agree to waive. You are not arguing about fences and driveways and all those mainland issues.

OK. OK. Forget the beer I mentioned earlier. Get a bottle of high quality single malt and offer to share a sip. I have some that I opened 10 years ago. Still have, for special occasions. Very (to me) expensive, but recognized by anybody as a tribute You've got to get past this idea that island residents are adversaries. Talk to your neighbor. Q: "Do WE need a survey? Do you want to share the cost?" A: This is excellent Scotch (hot dogs, BBQ) We should talk about it sometime. Remind me later."
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:46 PM   #41
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Our camp (which is only 12-ft by 20-ft) is now 10-feet onto the opposite neighbors property (east side). Luckily for us, the east side neighbor is just vacant land, for now.
Wouldn't the whole island have to be surveyed to really know if you are 10ft on your neighbors property?
Where would the actual starting point be when they begin the survey.
I wonder what the Alton mapping for your property shows for your property.

10ft???
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Old 03-24-2018, 05:59 AM   #42
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The lawyer will tell you to get a survey done. Why start out with hostility?
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Old 03-24-2018, 07:09 AM   #43
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Absolutely agree with TIS. have your survey completed and go from there, once you bring in attorneys they will suck you dry and you are beginning the process in an adversarial way. Try to resolve like gentleman first.


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Old 03-24-2018, 02:18 PM   #44
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Default An interesting thread...

This is going to be an ongoing thread for a long time. It'll be interesting and a learning experience for most of us.

If this was my problem...

I used a company to do a survey called Stoney Ridge Environmental, Alton, NH, 603-776-5825. This is a women run company and they seem to know their stuff. A call to them for their opinion and suggestion would be a start.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:08 AM   #45
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This is a women run company and they seem to know their stuff.
Thats an odd comment. Surprised somebody hasn't flamed you on it.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:23 AM   #46
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Thats an odd comment. Surprised somebody hasn't flamed you on it.
This is a subject that cries out for its own thread! I have learned by personal experience to seek out and use female run companies. I feel they are more honest and go the extra mile to get your business! Given a choice, I usually go with the female run company!
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:07 AM   #47
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This is a subject that cries out for its own thread! I have learned by personal experience to seek out and use female run companies. I feel they are more honest and go the extra mile to get your business! Given a choice, I usually go with the female run company!
You sexist pig!

Wait, what?
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:11 AM   #48
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Some men have their wives listed as the owners so that they are designated as a minority run company.
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:28 AM   #49
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Some men have their wives listed as the owners so that they are designated as a minority run company.
I know several companies that on paper are run by wives or mothers, but in reality are owned by and run by men. These companies are mostly involved in competitive bidding processes in which they receive an advantage because they are minority- or women-owned.
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:30 AM   #50
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Some men have their wives listed as the owners so that they are designated as a minority run company.
Shhhh... didn't realize anyone knew
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:30 AM   #51
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With the companies I have dealt with a very knowledgeable woman came out to our house and there was no doubt they ran the company. Compared to the company that installed the original equipment in our house (water softening system) the female was the clear winner regarding honesty, presentation and multiple options as the male run one came out and basically said "you're screwed" it's gonna cost you this much $$"

Sorry to have hijacked the original thread...
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:24 PM   #52
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Call attorney Randy Walker and claim the land.
603-569-2000
You have a case.
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Old 03-29-2018, 02:12 PM   #53
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He's owned the property for 3 years. Only 17 years to go...

“the possessor must show twenty years of adverse, continuous, exclusive and uninterrupted use of the land claimed.” O’Hearne v. McClammer, 163 N.H. 430, 435 (2012).
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Old 03-29-2018, 02:56 PM   #54
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He's owned the property for 3 years. Only 17 years to go...

“the possessor must show twenty years of adverse, continuous, exclusive and uninterrupted use of the land claimed.” O’Hearne v. McClammer, 163 N.H. 430, 435 (2012).
I wonder if 20 years includes prior owners that also utilized the property as if it were their own?
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Old 03-29-2018, 03:33 PM   #55
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I wonder if 20 years includes prior owners that also utilized the property as if it were their own?
I believe that in NH a subsequent owner can tack on the adverse use of those who owned the property before him or her.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:57 PM   #56
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I think this falls squarely on the title company. How can a clean title be conveyed if the building that sits on it is over the property line? This is precisely what title insurance is for.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:59 PM   #57
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I think this falls squarely on the title company. How can a clean title be conveyed if the building that sits on it is over the property line? This is precisely what title insurance is for.
I agree 100%. I said that earlier, your title insurance policy should have the very specific location of the property being purchased, not just the address.
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Old 03-29-2018, 05:43 PM   #58
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New Hampshire’s Requirements for Adverse Possession

There is no single statute in New Hampshire that dictates the elements a trespasser must establish in order to prove adverse possession. Rather, the courts have set forth a variety of such factors over many decades of issuing decisions in individual cases.

As in most states, adverse possession in New Hampshire is established from the nature of a trespasser’s possession and the length of time the person possesses the land.

A trespasser’s possession must be (i) hostile (against the right of the true owner and without permission); (ii) actual (exercising control over the property); (iii) exclusive (in the possession of the trespasser alone); (iv) open and notorious (using the property as the real owner would, without hiding his or her occupancy); and (v) continuous for the statutory period (which is 20 years in New Hampshire, under N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 508:2).

In addition to these factors, New Hampshire courts have repeated certain pieces of evidence that are likely to weigh in favor of granting a trespasser adverse possession. These include whether the trespasser purchased the land in good faith; whether the trespasser paid taxes on the property; and whether the trespasser holds a deed that indicates that he or she owns the land. As you can see, these mainly address situations where there was confusion over ownership rather than an outright attempt to take over another person's land. None of these factors instantly turn the case into a “slam dunk,” but they seem to weigh on the minds of New Hampshire judges.

To illustrate these concepts, let's take a hypothetical. Imagine that Amanda and Bob live next to one another in a suburb outside of Manchester. Without a wall between their properties, Amanda begins to put lawn furniture on what is technically Bob’s land. Eventually, Amanda builds an entire patio there. Bob never says anything. The years pass—20 years, in fact. Under New Hampshire’s adverse possession framework, Amanda will likely be successful in establishing an ownership claim to that portion of Bob’s property. Note that she won’t be able to take over all of Bob’s lawn—only the portion upon which she constructed the patio and which she actively used for those two decades. New Hampshire courts would be reluctant to suddenly eject Amanda and her patio after so much time has passed.
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Old 03-29-2018, 05:48 PM   #59
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I think this falls squarely on the title company. How can a clean title be conveyed if the building that sits on it is over the property line? This is precisely what title insurance is for.
It protect you FROM adverse possessions... against you not,the other way around.
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Old 03-29-2018, 07:51 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
Thats an odd comment. Surprised somebody hasn't flamed you on it.
PC police...

I said...

"This is a women run company and they seem to know their stuff."

I thought it was kind of a a double win. "And" was meant as an addition to their qualifications. I like women.

I could have said...

"This is a women run company "BUT" they seem to know their stuff."

As far as why didn't someone flame me for that?

You did...
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:07 AM   #61
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PC police...

I said...

"This is a women run company and they seem to know their stuff."

I thought it was kind of a a double win. "And" was meant as an addition to their qualifications. I like women.

I could have said...

"This is a women run company "BUT" they seem to know their stuff."

As far as why didn't someone flame me for that?

You did...
I guess you missed the laughing emoji in my post.
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Old 03-30-2018, 10:48 AM   #62
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It protect you FROM adverse possessions... against you not,the other way around.
So I get that is one of the protections it offers - but at the same time the title/deed is supposed to accurately describe the property in question.

I mean common a quick lookup if title insurance yields this result:

Title insurance is a form of indemnity insurance predominantly found in the United States which insures against financial loss from defects in title to real property and from the invalidity or unenforceability of mortgage loans


I'd say in this case it would meet the defective and possible financial loss criteria if it doesn't accurately depict the building is over the property line. In fact if the property happens to have a mortgage on it I'd think the lien holder would be very interested to know that a portion of the property that represents a significant percentage of it's value is not completely on the property as described. They too have a vested interest again if applicable.

If this were me I'd be contacting the NH RE commission if there is a case where there was not accurate and complete disclosure there should be culpability on the part of both the seller and listing agent.

Since I'm not a lawyer or have any professional experience here I'm just looking at this though the context of a lay man's interpretation.
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Old 03-30-2018, 12:21 PM   #63
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I believe that in NH a subsequent owner can tack on the adverse use of those who owned the property before him or her.
It's possible that the owner of the vacant lot granted permission to the previous owner to allow the mis-placed camp on the lot line. This would have protected him against any claims of adverse possession. This could have been scribbled on an old napkin. I bet most of the old island properties were bought and sold without surveys (cash sales).

And now since he's posted this story on a public forum, I wouldn't be surprised if the owner of the lot is now aware of this issue and will take legal steps to protect himself.

Do the right thing. Get a survey. Move the camp (if necessary).
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Old 03-30-2018, 01:12 PM   #64
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This is an oversimplification, but the Owner’s Title Insurance policy would normally provide coverage for a situation in which there are defects in the legal title to the insured property. For example, a forged deed, an error made by the person doing the title search which failed to pick up an undischarged lien or a prior sale out of a portion of the insured premises, a defect in a prior deed, etc. The policy essentially provides that the owner has legal title to the real estate described in the policy. The survey exception which I noted above is not usually deleted unless a current survey of the property is produced, showing the boundary lines and the location of improvements on the property in relation those boundary lines. If in fact the owner has legal title to the insured property, but for whatever reason, a portion of a building is located on property not owned by the insured owner, then there is no claim under the title insurance policy. The actual survey exception, at least in New Hampshire as of 5 years ago, is:

“Any encroachment, encumbrance, violation, variation, or adverse circumstance affecting the title, including discrepancies, conflicts in boundary lines, shortages in area, or any other facts that would be disclosed by an accurate and complete land survey of the Land, and that are not shown in the public records.”
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Old 03-30-2018, 04:30 PM   #65
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So I get that is one of the protections it offers - but at the same time the title/deed is supposed to accurately describe the property in question.

I mean common a quick lookup if title insurance yields this result:

Title insurance is a form of indemnity insurance predominantly found in the United States which insures against financial loss from defects in title to real property and from the invalidity or unenforceability of mortgage loans


I'd say in this case it would meet the defective and possible financial loss criteria if it doesn't accurately depict the building is over the property line. In fact if the property happens to have a mortgage on it I'd think the lien holder would be very interested to know that a portion of the property that represents a significant percentage of it's value is not completely on the property as described. They too have a vested interest again if applicable. My suggestion is to continue to believe the camp is on your land and let someone else prove otherwise.

If this were me I'd be contacting the NH RE commission if there is a case where there was not accurate and complete disclosure there should be culpability on the part of both the seller and listing agent.

Since I'm not a lawyer or have any professional experience here I'm just looking at this though the context of a lay man's interpretation.
I would consider the land mine and use it as has the past multiple owners, who by the way paid property taxes demanded by the town for at least the past 50 years! Apparently the deed indicates the camp is one the land, I would be interested is seeing how far back the deed goes with mention of the camp. Town shows that the camp is on the property in question. I would guess there is nothing recorded suggesting that the camp is on someone elses property including the owners of the adjacent lot. This is a classic case of ownership by adverse possessions! Course getting the advice of a "competent" attorney would be in order.
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Old 03-30-2018, 05:03 PM   #66
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First of all let me begin by saying I'm just talking about this stuff from a non-legal, beer drinking, fun loving conversational point of view. BUT I think the whole concept of "Adverse Possession" is theft via trespassing, pure and simple.

It's up to the purchaser to make sure the property in question is everything the seller says it is. If you buy property without getting a current survey, nobody else is responsible for any encroachments, not the real estate agency, not the title insurance company, nobody except the man in the mirror. If you try to blame it on some other entity, I call BS.

(and I'm not implying captT820 did any of these things)

Last edited by welch-time; 03-30-2018 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 03-30-2018, 07:35 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welch-time View Post
First of all let me begin by saying I'm just talking about this stuff from a non-legal, beer drinking, fun loving conversational point of view. BUT I think the whole concept of "Adverse Possession" is theft via trespassing, pure and simple.

It's up to the purchaser to make sure the property in question is everything the seller says it is. If you buy property without getting a current survey, nobody else is responsible for any encroachments, not the real estate agency, not the title insurance company, nobody except the man in the mirror. If you try to blame it on some other entity, I call BS.

(and I'm not implying captT820 did any of these things)
From a similar bar stool non-accusatory perspective--the reason that adverse possession laws exist is to encourage owners to use and take care of their land. You might imagine a whole much of cases in more populated settings with larger tracts of land where this would be sensible policy, or at least debatable. But unless you believe that small island land owners should be meticulously policing their boundaries, this situation is not consistent with the spirit of the law. So as I reach for another shot, I'm thinking the judge is going to work hard to find against adverse possession. He's probably gonna think it may be the law, but it's BS...
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Old 03-31-2018, 10:51 AM   #68
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Just curious how any of you would feel if you've owned a home for 15 years, to suddenly get a knock on your door that your house was built on someone else's land 50 years ago and they demand it gets moved?
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:56 AM   #69
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Just curious how any of you would feel if you've owned a home for 15 years, to suddenly get a knock on your door that your house was built on someone else's land 50 years ago and they demand it gets moved?
Really bummed out. Then I'd move it. (And that would be the end of having those neighbors over for cocktails.)

But that's not the situation here. No one is asking for the home to be moved, and the home sounds relatively simple to move if someone ever did ask.

In a way, adverse possession advocates are promoting the reverse situation--imagine how you would feel if you owned a home for 15 years, and you suddenly get a knock on your door that a piece of your land is about to be taken by your neighbor and even best case you now need to drop a few thou on a lawyer?
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Old 03-31-2018, 06:15 PM   #70
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Great! After 66 posts we find out that this thread is not worth following. It has seemed interesting until the recent disclaimers.
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:02 PM   #71
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Thank you for all of the interest in this subject. I have contacted several surveyors and I’m waiting for quotes. We won’t be able to have the property surveyed for at least another month when the ice goes out. To respond to one of the posts, the owner of the vacant land next door may know about this post, which would be fine with us as we have nothing to hide. I’ll keep everyone updated on what we find out.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:31 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by CaptT820 View Post
All-
Thank you for all of the interest in this subject. I have contacted several surveyors and I’m waiting for quotes. We won’t be able to have the property surveyed for at least another month when the ice goes out. To respond to one of the posts, the owner of the vacant land next door may know about this post, which would be fine with us as we have nothing to hide. I’ll keep everyone updated on what we find out.
Well CapT you seem like a pretty reasonable guy. If it turns out that your camp is on or over the property line hopefully you and your neighbor can find a reasonable and equitable solution. While the law may allow for adverse possession I personally would seek an alternative means to settle this.

Good luck!
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:17 PM   #73
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Default Property Line Update

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Just to update our property line issues with our camp being over the adjoining property line, we have solved the problem. Our camp would've been grandfathered in as it was built in 1910, and the lot lines were drawn in 1968, but we didnt want to go through getting a variance and all that. The neighbor put the property up for sale, so we bought it. Now our camp is firmly on our own land and we don't have to worry about being over the lot line.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:44 PM   #74
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Default Move it or not

So,...the last time you went to a restaurant and had a great meal did you buy the restaurant? Probably not terribly funny, but in the context of your update it seems okay.
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Old 10-12-2019, 07:50 AM   #75
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All-
Just to update our property line issues with our camp being over the adjoining property line, we have solved the problem. Our camp would've been grandfathered in as it was built in 1910, and the lot lines were drawn in 1968, but we didnt want to go through getting a variance and all that. The neighbor put the property up for sale, so we bought it. Now our camp is firmly on our own land and we don't have to worry about being over the lot line.
Glad things worked out!
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