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Old 05-04-2022, 03:54 PM   #1
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Default Moultonborough Budget and Warrants town Meeting next week Tuesday and Saturday

Moultonborough will hold its annual Town meetings next week, the 10th and 14th of May

The budget which is available for review will be by machine vote on Tuesday and the warrants will be by Roll call hand vote on Saturday

Of importance to non-resident Tax payers The New Community Center will Will be presented again for consideration on Saturday, with additional monies to start rebuilding the old Lions Club building immediately.

More importantly
There is an article to move the Annual Town meeting to March instead of May when many nonresidents are not here,

Please come out to Vote on Saturday
if you do not think this is fair to all Taxpayers of Moultonborough


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Old 05-04-2022, 05:03 PM   #2
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Seems like a few items in the original message are not correct.

First, the budget is not by "machine vote on Tuesday"....it is only open for discussion and vote at Town Meeting on Saturday. Tuesday is for election of officials and zoning articles. However, people should come Saturday to express their opinions on the budget, including the long term impacts of added positions. Expansion of local government can be a problem long term when efforts to solve work volumes are not undertaken by looking for improved processes, etc. rather than just adding people. Hard to identify ANY activity by the BOS or town government to improve efficiency. These excess costs will hurt many people who are struggling to find money for food or energy in this inflationary period and there are other ways to solve problems rather than hire new full time employees. The BOS needs to exercise real leadership and seek other solutions rather than adding more burdens to the taxpayers. Spending less time approving fishing tournaments and raffles and working on real issues might be a step in the right direction.

Second, other warrant articles are not decided by "Roll Call hand vote" on Saturday. There is a difference between a "roll call" vote and a hand count vote. They are different. All warrant articles are approved or rejected based on a show of hands, unless a secret ballot is requested. A "roll call" vote is when each person is "polled" for their specific vote in public and is usually not part of town meeting.

Third, there is no planned vote on any new "Community Center" to be presented at Town Meeting. The only vote with some tie to a potential "NEW" community center is Article #8, where there is a proposal to set aside $750,000 of unassigned funds to a capital reserve account for a potential "new" community center that will be discussed at the 2023 Town Meeting. The writer should have noted that the $750,000 was just to encourage folks to donate money towards a potential new community center and should normally be returned to taxpayers by the BOS as a reduction in property taxes. Interesting that the BOS voted 2 in favor, 3 against this $750,000 request. It should be noted that the BOS has NEVER voted one way or another on any proposed "New Community Center", yet some wanted to set money aside anyway. And the "advisory" ABC voted 4-1 to support the move. Strange unexplained things do happen!
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Old 05-04-2022, 06:39 PM   #3
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Default new rec center questions

I am neither for nor against the rec center at this time but I strongly object to voting to allocate any town funds this year in case the town votes in 2023 to go forward with the rec center. Town voters need to know before voting to allocate any funds for a possible future rec center what the annual operating costs are for the center, what additional staffing will be needed and what the overall impact will be to taxes going forward in future years (I realize this last question is hard to pin down completely). From the very limited research that I have done, no NH town anywhere near the size of Moultonborough has a year round indoor pool. This is potentially a big lift for our town. Again, I am keeping an open mind (if private donors substantially reduce the capital cost of the center I might be all in to support it) but unless and until a full and fair accounting of the cost to the town is completed, I will not vote to set aside any funds.
And I strongly object to changing the town meeting date back to March. I am a permanent Moultonborough resident but am rarely here in March.
Again, I will keep an open mind, but I need facts first before voting. Thanks for listening.
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Old 05-04-2022, 09:09 PM   #4
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seems like no on a rec center is never a no just try try again
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Old 05-05-2022, 11:59 AM   #5
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Default Moultonborough Town Meeting - more info

Let’s do some out loud thinking on the Community Center issue yet again before us in Moultonborough.

The “petition” Article 23 to move Town Meeting next year to March instead of May is just icing on the cake to the nonsense in front of us. Do ya think it may have something to do with pushing through a Community Center while the snowbirds are out of town?

Problem is we have too much money and it keeps flowing in. Moultonboro has an over-funded unrestricted fund balance. What is this but a holding account full of monies unspent from prior years. This means it is taxpayer money where we were over-taxed! Multiple years in a row. On occasion money is drawn from this fund to reduce taxation but mostly it sits and grows and sits and grows. Do ya think it is a tempting pile of dough?

Of course, reserves are standard business practice and an important element of budgeting, but….

The Town 2021 Annual Report Page 63 the independent auditors state: “As defined by the Town’s Fund Balance Policy, based upon our best estimates of the fiscal 2021 budgets for other entities, the unassigned fund balance will be approximately 18.1% of total appropriations….in comparison to the target of 12.5%.” Note to self: this translates to nearly 50% more than target policy.

And, while your head is spinning, the Town’s Capital Reserve Funds are sitting at $5.3Million as of 12/31/21. The Capital Improvements Committee final report January 2022 computes Department Head dreams and needs average $1.6Million annually for the next six years. No funding challenge here either as we fund those regularly as part of the budget ritual.

No, now is not the time to mention it but the School/Sau 45 has their own bushels of reserves and fund balances too. A budget of $15.5Million for 500 kids, including pre-k starting at age 3. A March 2022 rubber stamp vote adjusted the retained unrestricted fund balance from 2.5% of net assessment to 5%. Wonder where this is going?

At tax rate setting time a few months ago Selectman McGee made a motion to move $2Million from that unassigned fund balance and offset the tax rate returning that money to the taxpayer. His initiative didn’t pass but he was successful to move less than half that amount with a vote of 4-0-1. Selectman Beadle abstained from voting but during open discussion she didn’t support any reduction at all and wanted to keep the previous tax rate while assessments went up a town-wide average of 10.3% thus grabbing 10.3% more in tax revenue.

The rate now set, the very next week the Board of Selectmen put forth Article 8 on the 2022 Town Meeting Warrant which asks the voters to put $750,000 of that same unrestricted fund balance money into a capital reserve for a future Community Center (CC). Selectman Beadle made the motion. Hmmmmm. Is this why she didn’t support the tax rate reduction a week earlier to return those same over-taxation funds as her peers had agreed?

A nice architectural rendition is available of the new CC spearheaded by the resident petitioners. Nothing else but a “we need it” even though the taxpayers have voted smaller-sized, less expensive versions down four times since 2008.

This group of resident petitioners for this newest version CC portray it as 34,000 sq ft, two swimming pools with one a heated therapy pool, a gym, locker rooms, meeting rooms and office spaces, and commercial kitchen. It has been designed around their newest interpretation of needs. Want a wedding? Come here and the taxpayers will subsidize it, no worries. Live in an adjacent town? All good. The petitioners want you to use it too.

Here’s a thought. While many of us support non-profits independently how is it that the petitioners move to burden all taxpayers so non-profits have a place to meet in cozy new quarters we pay for? Is that the role of Government? What happens when one after another non-profit or any group arrives and demands space for their events? Do we then have to build or make space available for them? Is it discrimination if we say no? Are we sued for not equally supporting the group? Should this potential burden and liability be placed on the taxpayers? This could get really ugly as this nonsense around us continues to expand.

Let’s do some math. At 34,000 sq ft (larger than Meredith CC of course) and about $450/sq ft would make the price tag of $15Million. With inflation and Brandon in charge plus interest would put it at $20 Million a few years out when it could be built. Adding management staff, lifeguards for 2 pools, plus maintenance and other ongoing costs is likely to add $750,000 easily to the budget each year. Plus then add pro-rated capital improvement costs for out years. Think an average of $75,000/year per staff member for payroll, federal and state payroll taxes, benefits (did you know town employees pay only 10% of healthcare costs unless they were hired in the last two years when it jumped to 15%), pensions and uniforms. Then utilities, pool and both indoor and outdoor upkeep and maintenance.

The other elephant in the room is if built how will the fees be developed? What amount is likely to be asked to be subsidized by the taxpayer not using the facility at all? Will folks from adjacent towns have the same fee structure? Sure. No problem. I want a town-subsidized golf course. Can we get that too? The old mantra, it will only add $100/year to the property tax of an average home will be dusted off, plus, of course, it’s for the children… and now with the heated therapy pool, it’s for the elderly. A win-win. Cough up the dough!

Fees will be charged for users. Great! According to the 2022 Town Report Page 53 the town has raked in a whopping $1,075 in 2021 collected revenue at the current facility. Many of the same user groups dictating the “need” for the new CC facility. Sweet!

The folks that pay I am told 75% of the taxes in town are the waterfront property owners. Guessing a small small percentage of those are resident voters. Also guessing a single digit percentage of any of the waterfront property owners will step foot into the CC, if at all. So like is going on nationally, this is an “other people’s money” grab by a small few that are attempting to jam it down our throats yet again. Without all the facts up front.

No worries. Just put some money aside. Your over taxed money. Details will come later. Pricing. Fee structure. All the small details that don’t matter. Donations will come in. Ah. How is that coming? I hear a few thousand dollars has been raised. Good work. Keep going. Call us when you get $10 Million. Don’t fall for the “Trust me, we will do the right thing with your money”. Sounds like Washington DC: approve the bill and find out what’s in it later. No thanks. Been there and still there. Doesn’t work so well for the folks paying for it.

Saturday will be a fun.
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Old 05-06-2022, 12:14 AM   #6
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It isn't unusual for the same project to come up again and again.

And I doubt that they have changed tactics.
Prices of basic building materials are down from their exhilarating highs of 2019... but other items are still very much out of reach. So unless the town thinks a crash will occur in the fall, it still may not be the best time to seek any building expansion.
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Old 05-06-2022, 05:25 AM   #7
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So my question is where the two candidates for selectman stand on these and other issues. Can anyone provide a link that provides such information?
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Old 05-06-2022, 09:17 AM   #8
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i may be wrong but i think in prior years it was a bond issue which required 2/3 yeas. With this drip approach it is a simple majority
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Old 05-06-2022, 11:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
i may be wrong but i think in prior years it was a bond issue which required 2/3 yeas. With this drip approach it is a simple majority
You are correct that this drip approach only requires a majority vote of one

Article 7 funds to rehab the present hall will come from taxation.
Article 8 funds will come from Unassigned Funds.

Neither article requires a 3/5ths majority (formerly 2/3rds) vote, as neither requires a bond or note.

RSA 33:8 was revised in 2020 (2/3rds to 3/5ths)

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...II/33/33-8.htm
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Old 05-15-2022, 09:22 AM   #10
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so what was the damage to taxpayers at yesterdays town meeting
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Old 05-15-2022, 09:30 AM   #11
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Both Articles 7 and 8 failed to pass 😎👍
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Old 05-15-2022, 09:38 AM   #12
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Warrant
https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...dra_2022_0.pdf


Articles of general interest: 7,8,14,23 all failed.
Article 24 amended from $28,000 to $40,000 ... passed.
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Old 05-15-2022, 11:14 AM   #13
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maybe the rec center crowd will finally quit or come up with an affordable request
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Old 05-15-2022, 11:50 AM   #14
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It wouldn't make a difference.
It is a bad concept.
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Old 05-15-2022, 11:51 AM   #15
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Unfortunately the Taj Mahal community Center group will not take no for an answer. Some recent comments after the defeat at Town Meeting from the group’s social media:

‘Do not give up! You were closer than ever… never give up! 👏🏻💕😻”

“don’t worry. We will continue our work on behalf of the entire Community.”

They claim that they do not have any cost numbers, which strains credulity. A 34,000 square foot facility, including an “11,000 square foot facility featuring a 25-meter 5-lane pool for swimming lessons, water aerobics, and water polo.” And “a 40-foot therapy pool with a ramped entrance for no-impact physical therapy.”

So 34,000 square feet at $400 psf is $13,600,000.00 Do the math for higher psf costs. And yearly staffing, operating and maintenance costs will surely be high.

Yeah a really great way to try and spend our tax dollars. They say they are fundraising but at Town Meeting they stated that $17,000 had been raised.
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Old 05-15-2022, 11:58 AM   #16
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It isn't a matter of giving up.
Small groups try things forever.

But in the end the projects that get built are usually needed and largely supported.

The day may come when this happens for them... but the concept would be so different as to not make sense to the people that started it.

Even with Laconia's full time residential size and density... their community center goes largely unused.
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Old 05-15-2022, 12:18 PM   #17
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i guess you're right . the one thing they know if if it requires bonding they will lose so maybe continue the drip approach. Glad it got voted down
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Old 05-15-2022, 12:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mercier View Post

Even with Laconia's full time residential size and density... their community center goes largely unused.
Next to Rite Aid and close to Laconia High School ......

Three cheers for the Laconia Community Center ..... https://www.laconianh.gov/1030/Community-Center ..... this old former NH Guard Armory building is a 'work of art' beautiful building with a luxurious hardwood maple floor supporting its' combination use as a basketball court and two pickleball courts and a yearly Christmas Village.

The indoor temperature is kept low throughout the winter which makes it great for playing their very popular and well-attended pickleball schedule.

Community Center rule; hit the overhead steel girder with pickleball, and you lose the point. ..... ..... so sorry!
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Old 05-15-2022, 12:43 PM   #19
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But it still goes highly unused.

What they did was take a building that already existed... but was no longer needed for the purpose that it was built... and worked on finding a way that it could be useful again.

Old New Hampshire didn't like to waste.

Being in walking distance of most of Laconia - the Weirs would be a little far out even if the WOW trail was to shorten the distance - and having most everything else that could be thought of... the City decided on a community center.

No one that I have ever met can actually think of a different use for the building.

As they ''decommission'' current buildings... most are looked at to change into housing; but with the costs of material and labor currently... those projects take longer.

Moultonborough is talking about building a whole new building. These generally do not pay off in civic engagement... which is the underlying purpose of a community center.
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Old 05-15-2022, 03:52 PM   #20
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Default Many interesting comments here…..

This community center/gymnasium issue has been going on for at least a decade….maybe more. When the Taj Mahal concept fails with a certain group of voters time and again, the must-have-it group keeps marching on. They have zero intention of compromising…and sadly, their concept of what’s necessary keeps getting more grandiose.. If they had been less combative and willing to negotiate, I think that we might already have a very acceptable facility on old rt. 109, a renovated, comfortable, affordable Lions Club building. All of this could have been achieved pre pandemic, pre inflation, pre rising interest rates, and escalating building costs. Now everyone is holding on to their wallets for dear life, and we may never get a new community center. 😎👏🏼🤞
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Old 05-19-2022, 08:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longislander View Post
You are correct that this drip approach only requires a majority vote of one
THEY are waiting for all of the older voters to die.

Then the younger voters can get their Shangri La all inclusive fantasy, dancing, running, swimming, party, complex.
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Old 05-19-2022, 09:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
THEY are waiting for all of the older voters to die.

Then the younger voters can get their Shangri La all inclusive fantasy, dancing, running, swimming, party, complex.
When this older voter dies, they are welcome to all of those things, a total wonderland. However, I hope that someone can make them do the math, and cause an AHA! moment, that this monumental structure is going to cost millions to operate, over and above the initial cost…..and their property taxes will rise significantly. When it comes to common sense and math, their minds are closed.
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Old 05-20-2022, 09:30 AM   #23
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As stated by others, cost to run could be in the millions and I speculate might be more than 10% of the current town budget. Make no mistake....a "want" can quickly be a "need" with the right spin and there is lots of spin going on. We heard all about the "need" for the HUB but the proponents couldn't get a majority of voters to approve setting aside "free" money as bait to get contributions.

Next year the HUB group will press for a warrant article for their "need". I am sick of only having one option at town meeting. The solution is simple....the BOS needs to "do their job" and create a warrant article next year for a full renovation of the existing Lions facility and stop the "its for the Meals on Wheels". They are just a tenant....there are many more who can and do use the facility. Use the existing plans to renovate the facility that were created 3 years ago by an engineering firm. Use those plans and go out for a FIRM quotation before town meeting.

Next, offer the "HUB" group an option to lease for 99 years at $1 / year the needed ground space at the Lions site for a separate stand alone facility that has the gym and aquatics center that they purport has a large "need" in the community. Let those who see this "need" fund the construction, seek donations, and assume the annual operating costs...NOT THE TOWN.

It is time for the BOS to exert leadership and not be part of the "spin". We need to push them to dust off the old plans and get a firm bid...the sooner the better and BEFORE the town taxpayers get swamped with huge annual bond paybacks and equally large and ongoing annual operating costs for a "want" that has been spun as a "need".

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Old 05-20-2022, 08:10 PM   #24
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I never know where the bos stands maybe no where
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Old 05-20-2022, 08:45 PM   #25
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I never know where the bos stands maybe no where
I believe that they are more for it than against it. Chuck McGee, who did not run again, is against it.Those who are for it think that this will bring the town together! Is that ridiculous, or what?
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Old 05-20-2022, 10:06 PM   #26
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The right project might... this might just not be it.

When Reagan and Bush adopted the campaign slogan ''Let's make America great again''... they were more focused on the Eisenhower/Kennedy years. They just didn't have the introvert though process of Ike, and were more like the extroverted Kennedy.

Even to this day... we seem to quest for the unite of the Eisenhower years. But the conditions to accomplish that, I don't think anyone has actually grasped.
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Old 05-21-2022, 07:56 AM   #27
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Some on the BOS are totally convinced a mega Community Center is the way to go despite no clear majority in the town at large. And who represents the non-resident taxpayers that pay 70% of the taxes but get no say? Not some on the current BOS. It is hard to have an intelligent conversation when some are not open to investigating other ideas.

In 2019, the town produced terrific plans for a "needed" new Community Center (Phase I) without the "want" of some for a GYM or Aquatics Center. Cost then was $3.2M and today is probably close to $4M with inflation. Phase I should have been built but was not presented without a GYM. Now we have an Aquatics Center added to the quagmire.

This plan as prepared (Phase I) needs to be bid out by the BOS and put on the Warrant as a separate bond item next year. Build a new stand alone Community Center facility and lease the rest of the site to the HUB for a privately funded / privately operated GYM and Aquatics Center if the town residents financially support that "need". Run that as a business, not a taxpayer funded entity.
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Old 05-21-2022, 08:31 AM   #28
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Quote:
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"Now we have an Aquatics Center added to the"..... proposed Moultonborough Community Center .......
You know that none of the neighboring towns including Meredith have an indoor swim pool, and the Lake Winnipesaukee water temperature is 56-degrees, today-May 21, as reported in the Winnipesaukee.com water temperature page.

Swimming in 56-degree Lake Winnipesaukee requires a farmer john wet suit, swim socks, a swim cap and a foam noodle swim belt for cold water, swim safety, plus a 12' safety rowboat with a rower.

An indoor Moultonborough 82-degree, 25-meter, eight-lane swim pool will be a very welcome year-'round addition to the lakes region of NH. .......

Here's a picture ..... www.wmacwv.com ...... of one ...... 35-miles north of the big Meredith intersection ...... which anyone can use for $600/year.
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Old 05-21-2022, 08:51 AM   #29
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It keeps growing. Swimming pools, hockey rinks, tennis courts, basketball courts, ski areas, museums. Wants not needs All very nice to have but if town owned taxpayers have to pay for all these things, it gets very expensive. Everybody has their pet project and of course wants the town to have what they like but I am not sure where it will all end. i personally think all the wants should be self supporting. Guess I'm a dinosaur.
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Old 05-21-2022, 10:47 AM   #30
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FLL.....exactly my point. White Mountain Athletic Club is a stand alone CORPORATION....not a taxpayer funded monstrosity with numerous athletic venues. And looking at the Dun and Bradstreet on it, they apparently have 10+ employees. If there is such a strong "want", then get folks together and build it. Your point that no other town in the area has an Aquatics Center is proof that the local Moultonborough perceived "need" is really a "want". Otherwise the "need" would have happened in other Lakes Region towns. I'll be darned if my tax money will be used to build a pool and gym so that people from all around the lakes region can use it on my dime to build and operate it. Time to invoke "Pay to Play"......if some want it, PAY for it. That's what happened at Waterville Valley and that is what should happen in Moultonborough. Worried about cold lake water.... buy a HOT TUB !

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Old 05-21-2022, 11:48 AM   #31
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I have been following this thread for a couple of years and still have so many questions.
I have no idea whether this is a good idea for the town or not. Who are the people that would be swimming in the pool year round? It seems like the high school would have a swim team, but other than that…?
Years ago, when I was a resident of Moultonborough, on a back lot, it never crossed my mind that it would be so nice to have an indoor swimming pool in the winter time. I got enough exercise just shoveling my driveway, handling wood for the woodstove and when I had time, riding snowmobiles. When you live in New Hampshire, as the seasons change, your outdoor activities change as well. At least, that was always the way that I thought. You come to New Hampshire to go down hill skiing in the winter, not a dip in the pool. So why would the residents expect this?
Who are the people that are pushing to try to get this past? And what is their reasoning?
I know Moultonborough has a very large tax base. Everyone talks about the millions of dollars that it would take to build the center, but nobody has mentioned (I don’t think) how much an average tax bill would go up because of it.
My sister lives in Moultonborough, on the lake, and would never vote for this. She has been complaining about taxes, just like my parents before her. She has recently retired, as has her husband. They would have no desire for this now and when they were working they wouldn’t have had any time.
Who are the people that are pushing to try to get this past? What is their reasoning? Would taxes on a back lot go up so insignificantly and taxes on waterfront go away up?
Sorry, I’ve heard my family gripe about this for over a dozen years now and I still don’t understand how it’s still going on.
Everything just seems very vague to me.
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Old 05-21-2022, 12:30 PM   #32
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Default ...... NH motor-boater's 2400' swim test!

Here's a 2014, "Why Don't More Americans Know How To Swim" ...... https://www.wpr.org/why-dont-more-am...-know-how-swim ..... from Wisconsin Public Radio.

You know the beach at Ellecoya State Beach in Gilford is 600-feet long, so the State of NH could require a 2400', four beach length, swim test in order to qualify for a motorboat operators license.

If you want to drive a motorboat, you would need to pass this Ellacoya 4-laps, 2400' swim test, swam just out beyond the swim area, outer rope line.

This would encourage all these FAT and LAZY, non-swimming motor-boaters to become better swimmers. ....
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Old 05-21-2022, 12:44 PM   #33
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Default Wrong thread for post…

Fat lazy, this is the wrong thread for your post. We are discussing the Monument to the Greedy Whiners in Moultonborough. To be continued…..
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Old 05-21-2022, 12:51 PM   #34
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Here's a 2014, "Why Don't More Americans Know How To Swim" ...... https://www.wpr.org/why-dont-more-am...-know-how-swim ..... from Wisconsin Public Radio.

You know the beach at Ellecoya State Beach in Gilford is 600-feet long, so the State of NH could require a 2400', four beach length, swim test in order to qualify for a motorboat operators license.

If you want to drive a motorboat, you would need to pass this Ellacoya 4-laps, 2400' swim test, swam just out beyond the swim area, outer rope line.

This would encourage all these FAT and LAZY, non-swimming motor-boaters to become better swimmers. ....
My oldest son recently moved to Simpsonville,South Carolina. It is near the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains and close to Greenville and Asheville, North Carolina.
As I watch the prices on Lake Winnipesaukee skyrocket through the roof continually, I started looking around and couldn’t believe the difference in prices where he lives.

Responding to FLL, about being required to learn how to swim before going into a lake. Apparently on Lake Hartwell, there is a jumping rock that everybody likes to go out to. There have been so many drownings there, that there is actually a sign on the beach warning that people have drowned there and don’t go into the water if you can’t swim! It seems like people just start walking out and the next thing they know they’re over their head and then that’s it. That’s the strangest thing I’ve ever read about. Seems to me, if there was ever a place for a lifeguard, this would be it.
I know there was a post a while back about information for other lakes, but I could not find it.

If you’d like to compare, check out Lake Hartwell and Lake Keowee. These are both pretty big lakes and there are also many little mountain fed lakes all around that area.
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Old 05-21-2022, 12:57 PM   #35
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Fat lazy, this is the wrong thread for your post. We are discussing the Monument to the Greedy Whiners in Moultonborough. To be continued…..
Sorry, Sue. I can be led on a tangent very easily.
Do you completely understand what’s going on here? I can’t see long-term residents wanting this, they lived without it for so long. Is it people that are moving here more recently?
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Old 05-21-2022, 01:12 PM   #36
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The people who are pushing this are mainly the parents of school age children. The per capita expenditure for school exceeds $30k per year….and if that’s not enough, now we are expected to entertain the entire family at taxpayer expense?It’s a really terrible idea….we don’t have enough residents to support such an enterprise. We keep hearing that other towns have community centers that are underutilized and are putting the towns in deficit situations. Why would we be different? Those who have posted in support of a commercial effort by those who want this are on the right track, imo. There is no reason why taxpayers should have to bear the burden ….and don’t forget, there are many nonresident taxpayers who don’t even have a vote. Taking unfair advantage of your neighbors is not an admirable trait.
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Old 05-21-2022, 01:37 PM   #37
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Actually, the non-residents knew before they purchased.

But the voting pattern shows that it isn't even getting a super majority of support from the residents that vote.
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Old 05-21-2022, 05:39 PM   #38
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i have been there for 30 years and I bet when a realtor shows a property to a buyer they dont say oh by the way if a rec center gets approved your taxes will go up a lot. This year they tried a "bob and weave" put up just enough that it didnt require a bond and 60% vote and it still didnt pass
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Old 05-21-2022, 07:34 PM   #39
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I'm sure they don't.
But I have to believe that a buyer understands that taxation and regulation is fluid.

Life Happens.
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Old 05-21-2022, 07:44 PM   #40
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That is true, but it’s also a fact that many town residents have said in public meetings “Let the waterfront people and non residents pay for it!” We have actually heard people say it. While it’s a terrible attitude, it’s fairly prevalent.
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Old 05-21-2022, 08:48 PM   #41
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It always will be.
It has been that way since I was a boy.

It may seem more prominent now due to the flamboyance, but it was always there.

I don't see it getting better in the future. Though we may have some short term downturns over the next decade... I suspect that property in the area will rise in value - and lake frontage will see the most rise in value.

With what I see every day... I suspect before I pass... all the little camps/cottages on the Big Lake - and most of the others - will be homes on the smallest lots permitted, with footprints as large as the lot will permit rising up with glass window walls toward the lakes as tall as the code will permit.
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Old 05-21-2022, 10:30 PM   #42
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It always will be.
It has been that way since I was a boy.

It may seem more prominent now due to the flamboyance, but it was always there.

I don't see it getting better in the future. Though we may have some short term downturns over the next decade... I suspect that property in the area will rise in value - and lake frontage will see the most rise in value.

With what I see every day... I suspect before I pass... all the little camps/cottages on the Big Lake - and most of the others - will be homes on the smallest lots permitted, with footprints as large as the lot will permit rising up with glass window walls toward the lakes as tall as the code will permit.
That's exactly what has happened in Hillsborough and Rockingham Counties. 200 acre ponds surrounded by tiny camos are now surrounded by year round homes and the taxpayers had to foot the bill to bring in sewer and water to ponds where they no longer have public access.
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Old 05-22-2022, 07:28 AM   #43
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Loon .... www.mtnclub.com/classes/ ..... and ...... Waterville ..... www.wmacwv.com ..... have good indoor swimming ...... so, where in the Moultonborough-Center Harbor-Meredith area can I swim laps from October 1 to June 15 when the big lake, Lake Winnipesaukee, is too cold?

Is there a Moultonborough hotel-motel, somewhere, with a good large indoor pool, 82-degree clean water, and large windows that let in the early morning sunshine?

The http://www.midstatehealth.org/servic...s-and-fitness/ 90-degree pool in Plymouth, up above Walmart on the left, used to teach swimming classes for young children, and lead fitness classes for adults but unfortunately, Pemi Baker Community Health ...... now, Mid-State Health discontinued these well attended pool classes due to the Covid pandemic in March, 2020.

Pemi Baker Community Health ....... now, Mid-State Health used to have a a really really good teacher named Liz who taught all these young local children how-to-swim and lead the adult water exercise classes. Mid-State will hopefully be able to re-hire Liz and get her back in their pool as this Covid pandemic shrivels up and dies away ...... arrgghhh! ......

And, 45-minutes drive north of Moultonborough, there is ..... open year 'round, indoor water park ........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtTiZuXCHJg ....... Kahuna Laguna, North Conway
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Old 05-22-2022, 08:38 AM   #44
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It always will be.
It has been that way since I was a boy.

It may seem more prominent now due to the flamboyance, but it was always there.

I don't see it getting better in the future. Though we may have some short term downturns over the next decade... I suspect that property in the area will rise in value - and lake frontage will see the most rise in value.

With what I see every day... I suspect before I pass... all the little camps/cottages on the Big Lake - and most of the others - will be homes on the smallest lots permitted, with footprints as large as the lot will permit rising up with glass window walls toward the lakes as tall as the code will permit.
I wouldn't be so sure of that per say. The cost of floating a second piece of property is getting more and more expensive and because of that fewer can afford to do it. At some point that has a way of capping how far prices can go. As the burden of who pays for what continues to shift to those who "can afford it" and away from the masses, that top end will continue to shrink as those that have something are being financially targeted.
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Old 05-22-2022, 09:27 AM   #45
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In a closed system, but we aren't in a closed system.

Also from a valuation standpoint, it makes no difference whether you are resident or non-resident.

But increase in valuations also have to take into account STR options... which expand the opportunity.

It has been going like this for over fifty years... bumps along the way... but always the lakefront properties have gone up in valuation more than the back lot properties.

The lots get smaller to keep the costs down... the homes grow to fit the maximum allowed on the lot... and windows toward the lake size take up more of that wall. We are just manufacturing much large window options than what I had available in the past.

And with the engineered wood offsetting the need for steel beam supports... there is even more savings that promote the larger window walls.

Descant... because as much as people think things are expensive here - they are cheap in relation to other desirable locations.
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Old 05-22-2022, 10:01 AM   #46
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I wouldn't be so sure of that per say. The cost of floating a second piece of property is getting more and more expensive and because of that fewer can afford to do it. At some point that has a way of capping how far prices can go. As the burden of who pays for what continues to shift to those who "can afford it" and away from the masses, that top end will continue to shrink as those that have something are being financially targeted.
Sort of. But at current price levels, the real "cap" on waterfront real estate is the stock market...which is not capped. Pretty much nobody buying a $2MM+ second home is thinking about affordability with respect to mortgage payment and taxes. It's more a question of how much a person has at Fidelity and other long term financial issues.
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Old 05-22-2022, 10:48 AM   #47
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Stock market has been down...
I am still in design mode for homes that have significant square footage, height, and glazed area.
These are recent projects that just started.

For the most part, I don't think the buyers see them as second homes... but retirement homes that are being prepared for. Some are very well suited for that... while others seem to not be completely thought out.

The generational camps/cottages tend to be smaller with more basic materials... those are second homes that will stay in the family over time.
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Old 05-22-2022, 11:30 AM   #48
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The generational camps/cottages tend to be smaller with more basic materials... those are second homes that will stay in the family over time.
I hope this is true--they are gems. But your previous post predicted these are going to disappear.

One related dynamic here--if the modestly well-off owner of a camp sees a $2MM gain on the value of his cabin--"OMG--I'm rich!" is a reasonable reaction, and he might really appreciate what that cash can do for his retirement. But if a person who was already wealthy sees a $2MM gain on his grander lake home, it does not necessarily change his financial position or thinking. I don't really know the answer here, but this at least suggests that larger homes may turn over less than smaller homes
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Old 05-27-2022, 06:54 PM   #49
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The generational homes don't just disappear due to someone selling them.
Generations that inherit the smaller camps/cottages, but have an extrovert emotionally-based personality tend to play keep-up-with-the-Jones (its the basis of marketing).

They change them and grow them until they are no longer able to be supported by the next generation.

I think I read an article that about 70% of families would lose their wealth by the second generation, and 90% by the third.
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Old 05-27-2022, 07:35 PM   #50
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Default Disagreements between heirs

We have heard more horror stories about brothers/sisters who inherit property, usually vacation homes…..feuds over improvements to the property, scheduling problems, who is responsible for what, and endless beefs about everything related to the property. It appears that compromise happens only rarely, which is a shame.
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Old 05-27-2022, 08:15 PM   #51
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PPP comes from PPP.

Those who think of themselves as a single generation will lose. Those who plan for multi generations will do just fine. We all chipped in (2 generations, after the establishment donor) to establish an endowment so future generations won't be asked to financially participate. It took 30 years, but now the kids who are under 20 will be OK for their next generation. The trust makes it almost impossible for any one person to force a sale, and they can't pledge their share as an asset for any purpose.
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Old 05-27-2022, 08:32 PM   #52
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Consider purchasing this simple to read book if you have property that you want to preserve for the future...

Saving the Family Cottage: Creative Ways to Preserve Your Cottage, Cabin, Camp, or Vacation Home for Future Generations
Hollander Attorney, Stuart J. Cost = $28-30 on Amazon.

It is a very informative book...easy to read and understand. Then find yourself a good lawyer.
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Old 05-27-2022, 11:11 PM   #53
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PPP comes from PPP.

Those who think of themselves as a single generation will lose. Those who plan for multi generations will do just fine. We all chipped in (2 generations, after the establishment donor) to establish an endowment so future generations won't be asked to financially participate. It took 30 years, but now the kids who are under 20 will be OK for their next generation. The trust makes it almost impossible for any one person to force a sale, and they can't pledge their share as an asset for any purpose.
They don't always get sold... the new generation turns them into the same properties as they see next door.
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Old 05-29-2022, 07:36 PM   #54
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PPP comes from PPP.

Those who think of themselves as a single generation will lose. Those who plan for multi generations will do just fine. We all chipped in (2 generations, after the establishment donor) to establish an endowment so future generations won't be asked to financially participate. It took 30 years, but now the kids who are under 20 will be OK for their next generation. The trust makes it almost impossible for any one person to force a sale, and they can't pledge their share as an asset for any purpose.
Very interesting. If it's not prying too much:

How many people in each generation?

How do/will you govern time allocations and other issues?

Any other advice for families considering this?

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Old 06-26-2022, 12:51 PM   #55
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Still see flyers and signs supporting the rec center . HUB and had a flyer in the mail box so someone spent a decent amount of money to get this passed
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Old 06-26-2022, 03:31 PM   #56
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Still see flyers and signs supporting the rec center . HUB and had a flyer in the mail box so someone spent a decent amount of money to get this passed
In today’s climate of inflation, where people are struggling to make ends meet financially, I think it’s unconscionable for those pushing for an elaborate community center with two pools, thousands of square feet to maintain, and a huge burden to all taxpayers. It’s an extravagant waste of taxpayer dollars, and my guess is that it would be underutilized once the shine wears off. Our town is filled with items that people HAD to have, such as the walking path on Moultonboro Neck Road, and the van/bus that the rec. dept. HAD to have, both of which are rarely if ever used. I am very disappointed that Mark Borrin and others are still pushing forward with this madness, when financial constraints should be on everyone’s minds in this era of uncertainty, to put it mildly. JMO
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Old 06-26-2022, 05:11 PM   #57
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Seems again like a few have a want and the need just gets colored over. The "need" is to renovate the current Community Center...PERIOD. The gym, offices for Rec, and the pools are all "wants". I can see parents trying to drive this project when they know that the cost burden will be primarily funded by non resident taxpayers. The proponents will talk a big story, but behind the scenes they will rejoice at the fact that they once again got the people who cannot vote to pay the bill. People cannot accept the fact that this has been turned down many times. Yes, costs will be huge, ongoing costs will be even greater. All of this when people cannot fill their gas tanks or wonder how they will heat their house this winter. Will it be food vs heat???? And we have a Board of Selectmen that has at least three members who show all appearances of supporting the HUB. Instead, the BOS should be putting an article on the warrant to really do an A+ job in renovating the former Lions Club and be done with all the peripheral baloney and rhetoric of the HUB group. There is NO need...just a huge WANT by some and yet again they are dividing this beautiful town. The BOS can do something other than sit on their hands, but so far they have done NOTHING. So sad....they are supposed to represent ALL of the taxpaying people, not just sit back and do NOTHING.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:34 PM   #58
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Inflation is situational.

Refined petroleum products costs are high... but it hasn't really resulted in the masses cutting back their usage; so really a non-problem.

Food prices are rising... but I have only seen a few think of growing crops rather than turfgrass; so really a non-problem.

Even on window sales... a long term decision... I still have not seen any amount of concern for energy efficiency as it relates to heating; nor have we see new housing return to the more compact norms of the past.
Families of four use to live in homes of around 1000-1200 square feet in the 40s/50s, and now retired couples are ''downsizing'' to 3000 square feet or more.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:55 PM   #59
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Inflation is situational.

Refined petroleum products costs are high... but it hasn't really resulted in the masses cutting back their usage; so really a non-problem.

Food prices are rising... but I have only seen a few think of growing crops rather than turfgrass; so really a non-problem.

Even on window sales... a long term decision... I still have not seen any amount of concern for energy efficiency as it relates to heating; nor have we see new housing return to the more compact norms of the past.
Families of four use to live in homes of around 1000-1200 square feet in the 40s/50s, and now retired couples are ''downsizing'' to 3000 square feet or more.

Your comment on inflation is not supported by facts. Guess the data is all wrong..... and your situation is better than most.
Fuel usage is being watched by consumers. Heating fuels will be a shock.
Food prices are really rising. People are hurting. Glad your situation is not having any problems.
I don't care about window sales...just smoke IMHO, as most do not replace windows frequently.

Nice try but I don't buy it.
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Old 06-26-2022, 07:06 PM   #60
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Really?

So we aren't seeing boats and motorcycles recreating in the area?
And all those out-of-state plates that have to travel hundreds of miles each weekend are a figment of my imagination?

And the snowmobile clubs getting quotes for the repairs they will make this summer/fall is another figment of my imagination?

I drive from Belmont down Meredith Center to Bristol, six days a week in a vehicle that gets mileage in the high 40s... what I am seeing for traffic and the vehicles being driven... doesn't seem to be a real concern for lots of people.

We combat food by growing more... so I am guessing that there is no space left in your yard to plant any more crops?
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Old 06-28-2022, 02:43 PM   #61
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Default Senate Bill 2 Petition

There is a Petition circulating to have the Town of Moultonborough schedule a Special Town Meeting to vote on whether to adopt NH RSA 40:13. From the NH Department of Revenue Administration on RSA 40:13:

" RSA 40:13, Senate Bill 2, also known as SB2, (Official Ballot Referenda) is a form of town meeting that has two sessions. The first session (deliberative session) is for explanation, discussion, debate and amendments to the proposed operating budget and warrant articles. The second session (voting session) allows voters to cast an official ballot to pass/fail proposed articles."

See Laconia Daily Sun: https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opin...d4ae70ae2.html

While the deliberative session of Town Meeting would be mostly unchanged, the vote on the Warrant Articles would take place in the same fashion as Town Elections, with the ability to vote by absentee ballot.

This seems to me to be appropriate for Moultonborough to adopt so that the 2023 Town Meeting will be held under the provisions of SB 2.
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Old 06-28-2022, 03:37 PM   #62
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Default Sign that petition, please!

Doing away with the lengthy, tedious, and divisive town meetings would be a welcome relief! I hope that voters decide in favor of SB-2.
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Old 06-28-2022, 04:39 PM   #63
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Sign me up......SB2 is needed ASAP.
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Old 06-28-2022, 04:51 PM   #64
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From the Laconia Daily Sun, the E Mail address to request a copy of the Petition is:

Moultonborough residents: Please email Mobosb2@gmail.com, and the petition file will be forwarded.

Note that you must be a registered voter in Moultonborough for your signature to be counted and that the original signed petition must be sent to the address noted in the Petition. Signed PDF's are not sufficient.
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Old 06-28-2022, 04:53 PM   #65
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Having grown up in a town with town meetings I see the advantage of having discussion and votes at the same time. The people voting on an issue have sat and listened to the explanations and reasoning behind each article. They can ask questions and form an opinion, and vote on an article.

If absentee voting, or voting without listening to any discussion is allowed, uninformed people will be voting on issues they may not fully understand.

The same problem happens during elections for public office. If you have ever watched interviews about current events with people on the street you understand how uninformed the majority of the population is. Yet they vote.
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Old 06-28-2022, 05:47 PM   #66
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As of 12/2020 there were 72 SB 2 town in NH and more every year. That is a whole lot of voters who see the benefit of the SB2. I see from the prior poster they list their location as Gilford. Wonder if they knew Gilford was an SB2 town? It is. Hmmmmmm..........ll
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Old 06-28-2022, 06:44 PM   #67
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Quote:
Having grown up in a town with town meetings I see the advantage of having discussion and votes at the same time. The people voting on an issue have sat and listened to the explanations and reasoning behind each article. They can ask questions and form an opinion, and vote on an article.

If absentee voting, or voting without listening to any discussion is allowed, uninformed people will be voting on issues they may not fully understand.

The same problem happens during elections for public office. If you have ever watched interviews about current events with people on the street you understand how uninformed the majority of the population is. Yet they vote.
Discussion occurs at both Traditional and Deliberative sessions. People sit, listen, and ponder what they are hearing. They can still ask questions or motion alternatives, at both forms of town governance. A big difference is "traditional" must vote "now" with no way of researching what has been said. SB2 allows about a month to do research before voting. Which voter can be better informed!

"Traditional" absentee ballots don't allow for voting on all articles. Just elections, zoning, and other articles that are stipulated by statute ... as was SB2, till 2019 when the law was changed back to the 1995 verbiage. SB2 could only be voted in by the Tuesday ballot. Now, at least there can be debate, as this petition is attempting. If there is a month to research warrant article before voting, which method is more apt to produce informed voters!

With today's internet capabilities, if someone remains "uninformed", it is probably an act of God, and not policy. Ignorance can be corrected, but not stupidity.

Voting is not limited to folks that are not stupid. However, convincing folks on policy may be an art.
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Old 06-28-2022, 06:56 PM   #68
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SB2, though not perfect, takes away the free time restrictions and opens the door to a more democratic outcome. It forces a policy/expenditure to seek consensus among the many.
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Old 06-29-2022, 08:22 AM   #69
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SB2, though not perfect, takes away the free time restrictions and opens the door to a more democratic outcome. It forces a policy/expenditure to seek consensus among the many.
I agree. It allows more people to vote and every time I have seen a town transfer into SB2 more people do indeed vote.
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Old 06-29-2022, 08:57 AM   #70
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Just compare voter turnout for Traditional Tuesday voting day, and the Traditional business session turnout. Many, many, more voters at least turnout for elections etc. on the Tuesday, but don't go to business session.

SB2 has the same number of voters on voting Tuesday. The issue is how many, comparing one vote session (SB2) v. two voting sessions (Traditional).

Both forms of Tuesday ballot voting, votes are ... yes ... no ... abstain! All voting for SB2 is "secret". How many times at Traditional meeting, folks are leery of raising their yes/no cards, as to not "offend" others.

The classical anti-SB2 argument, of less folks show up for the SB2 deliberative session, is bogus. Informed folks that have read the warrant, and have no problems with it, and don't want to hear a bunch of bloviating at a mic, don't need to go to the deliberative session. Just vote on the Tuesday!
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Old 06-29-2022, 09:44 AM   #71
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We lived for 25 years in towns with Town Meetings. I loved them at first for all the romantic reasons. But after a while it becomes clear that there is a huge cost (in time) to voting. This cost is heaviest on those with kids who need sitters and those with long work hours. On the other side, extremists on any given issue are more than happy to pay the price. I've come to think that, ironically, Town Meetings are the least democratic form of government.
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Old 06-29-2022, 09:45 PM   #72
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As a previous resident of a current SB2 town, I’ve seen a routine proposal to accept national school lunch program funds fail. A proposal that was recommended for passage by the select board. Perhaps a informed or uninformed electorate?
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Old 06-29-2022, 09:55 PM   #73
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Willful ignorance.
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Old 06-30-2022, 12:49 AM   #74
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I miss the traditional Town/School meeting which was as much social as business. Our biggest was about 4500 people in three gyms/cafeteria with big screens and electronic interconnections. Now, with about 19,000 on the voter checklist, we get <100 at the deliberative session and 3500 who actually vote on the ballot day.
My big complaint with SB2 is the "Default budget" which goes into place if the voters reject the proposed budget. Many governing bodies are routinely accused of making the default budget so close to, or higher than, the proposed budget, that it doesn't matter which way you vote, there will be more spending. Let me add that meetings are televised now, and replayed, so we don't know how many actually watch, but they aren't in the room to discuss or vote on amendments to warrant articles.
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Old 06-30-2022, 06:44 PM   #75
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Willful ignorance.
I hate to think that the electorate was ignorant in this case, but there’s probably not a better explanation for that vote. When a town adopts SB2, it’s voters assume greater responsibility for outcomes.
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Old 06-30-2022, 07:24 PM   #76
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Willful.
Ignorance is the lack of knowledge.
Willful ignorance is ignoring that knowledge.

They knew what they were doing, but allowed their emotion to overcome their logic.

An example is less children in public school would result in lower school costs and less taxation. But we have long term data that lower pupil enrollments do not create lower school budgets.
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Old 06-30-2022, 07:44 PM   #77
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Quote:
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Willful.
Ignorance is the lack of knowledge.
Willful ignorance is ignoring that knowledge.

They knew what they were doing, but allowed their emotion to overcome their logic.

An example is less children in public school would result in lower school costs and less taxation. But we have long term data that lower pupil enrollments do not create lower school budgets.
“Willful” is harsh. I sense a bias here.
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Old 06-30-2022, 08:00 PM   #78
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Common term for it.
It is when fact has been presented and refuted for emotional bias.

Your example was they voted down something that logically they should not have. Thus emotion and a willingness to overlook the logic led to the ignorance; not that the knowledge was not available.

It happens in investing a lot.
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