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Old 07-10-2011, 06:26 AM   #1
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Thumbs down Northern Pass Project

NH residents please get on board and oppose this. This project which will allow a private corporation, which by the way isnít even in our country, to take private land by eminent domain with the states backing, create no new jobs for NH workers (how many steel workers are there in NH capable of erecting steel towers) and be nothing more than a means to get electricity to the southern states. NH already exports surplus electricity to other states yet has some of the highest electric rates in the country.
On top of that once the project is complete they can apply for and in most cases get an abatement which will eliminate them from having to pay taxes.
So tell the Canadians to take their project somewhere else.
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:38 AM   #2
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Default I Agree!!

The Northern Pass Project is nothing but a huge scam for the citizens of NH!! First off, NH produces 50% - 75% more electricity than we currently use so why do we need this?? As far as jobs go, when the project is complete it is estimated the State will gainfully employ six full time positions, that's right a whopping six more jobs! How can we let 130' steel monstrosities run through our precious White Mountains and Lakes Region!!!

Don't forget our State Constitution states that eminent domain cannot take place to benefit a for profit company or organization, so how is this taking place, who is letting our constitution be changed against the will of the people?? Money, lobbyist, backdoor political payoffs and a Governor that could care less that's how!

Everyone needs to educate themselves on this issue and find out the REAL reason why they are trying to force this down our throat . Way to long to put in print here but trust me when I tell you it's all about money and in no way does NH benefit one bit from this scam.

Educate yourselves on this issue and contact your state Senators and representatives to voice your opposition to the Northern Pass Scam before it is too late!!

Dan

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Old 07-10-2011, 07:59 AM   #3
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Default I Also Agree

Well said Guys, This project MUST BE STOPPED, I hate hearing the propaganda commercials (corporate $$$$) they say how it is for Green energy to lessen our dependence on FOREIGN OIL, I say we need to LESSEN our dependence on FOREIGN ENERGY, including hydro Quebecs hydro power.
They way overstate the added tax base, they will get huge tax breaks, and it will also devalue property, resulting in less property tax income around the line area. They will also hire a company from out of state (not local)to put up the towers, just like they did when they put the third line thru Bath, Haverhill, Warren, Wentworth, Rumney etc. close to 20 years ago.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:17 AM   #4
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Default Clamshell Alliance

Reminds me of the Seabrook nuclear reactor protects of the 70's. Activists wanted no nuclear reactors in this state despite the beneifits of cleaner air. The original intent of the reactors was to shut down the oil and coal plants. Today, the Bow plant is the biggest polluter in the state if not New England. Despite spending millions to 'scrub' the smoke.
According to http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...shire_and_coal shows no further indictments on the Bow plant. The head of the Clamshell Alliance mentioned in the Concord Monitor, he wish he had not shut down the second reactor 30 years ago. The Bow and Schiller plant would have been gone. Resulting in much cleaner air.

So thinking about 'not in my backyard' today. Think about the consequences to be had 30 years from now for your children/grandchildren.
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:29 PM   #5
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I'd like to know why anyone thinks this is a good idea, so far in reading various articles and even the ads in the Union Leader, none seem to convince me it's a benefit to the state. The only thing I see is a bait and switch coming where like the cable companies they hit you with rock bottom teaser rates, sugar coat everything and paint a lovely picture only to get you signed up then 6 months or a year later hammer you with high rates.

Anyone who doesn't think that's going to happen is a fool. Furthermore once this thing is in place and once everyone figures out it's a raw deal, there is no undoing what has already been done. If we need more power then WE need to produce it ourselves. It boggles the mind how willingly people are at letting somebody else do all the work, then they are the first to cry when it doesn't turn out as expected. There is no excuse or reason why we cannot produce anything we want to in the good old USA, just get the Government and all the regulations our of the way.

Dan it's curious you bring up the eminent domain angle, while I agree with your premise, since the power grid services the public I can see where that may be a legit argument for it to be exercised. The only reason why I say that is because the gov't doesn't own or control any of the power companies they are all operating as private for profit entities although highly regulated by the state and feds right? If they have the need to expand the grid infrastructure there has to be a way to allow that to occur over or through private land. I say this not in support of this project, just a general statement of theory. It'd be no different for running gas lines or any other type of "public" utility - I would think anyways. Clearly the objective in any of this should however be to reduce as much as conceivably possible the need to exercise this since I for one understand it's need, but cringe every time it's suggested.
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:45 PM   #6
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Default Follow The Money

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Dan it's curious you bring up the eminent domain angle, while I agree with your premise, since the power grid services the public I can see where that may be a legit argument for it to be exercised. The only reason why I say that is because the gov't doesn't own or control any of the power companies they are all operating as private for profit entities although highly regulated by the state and feds right? If they have the need to expand the grid infrastructure there has to be a way to allow that to occur over or through private land. I say this not in support of this project, just a general statement of theory. It'd be no different for running gas lines or any other type of "public" utility - I would think anyways. Clearly the objective in any of this should however be to reduce as much as conceivably possible the need to exercise this since I for one understand it's need, but cringe every time it's suggested.
Maxum;

They want to take land, homes and businesses from people in the State of NH for a utility that only benefits Massachusetts. Remember, NH produces 50% - 75% more electricity than it uses, we are set for years to come. They are trying to do this under the eminent domain law.

"State" infrastructure such as roads, highways, bridges, etc, etc are not for profit state necessities that we pay taxes on. This power that is coming out of Quebec is strictly for profit and billions of dollars of profit and does not, I repeat does not benefit the state of NH. This is completely against our state constitution which clearly states, "No part of a person's property shall be taken by eminent domain and transferred, directly or indirectly, to another person if the taking is for the purpose of private development or other private use of the property." Hydro Quebec IS a private company and IS profiting from this!

In March of this year The NH House approved a bill blocking the utility companies from taking private land regarding the Northern Pass Project by an overwhelming 317 - 51. Make no mistake however this is far from over as Hydro Quebec has given PSNH / Northeast Utilities millions of dollars to fight this. They have also put almost every lawyer capable of trying this case on retainer to keep anyone against it out of their way. They have paid many many lobbyist and have many millions of dollars to try and force this down our throat.

Oh yeah here's another good one, Massachusetts who needs this power is shutting down Salem Harbor one of their primary electrical producing plants in 2014 which produces 800 Megawatts of electricity. Guess what most likely will be going in in it's place... A casino!!

Everyone needs to do their homework on this issue and follow the money for the real answers. Don't believe anything you see and hear on TV.

Dan

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Old 07-11-2011, 10:32 AM   #7
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Maxum;

They want to take land, homes and businesses from people in the State of NH for a utility that only benefits Massachusetts. Remember, NH produces over 75% more electricity than it uses, we are set for years to come. They are trying to do this under the eminent domain law.

"State" infrastructure such as roads, highways, bridges, etc, etc are not for profit state necessities that we pay taxes on. This power that is coming out of Quebec is strictly for profit and billions of dollars of profit and does not, I repeat does not benefit the state of NH. This is completely against our state constitution which clearly states, "No part of a person's property shall be taken by eminent domain and transferred, directly or indirectly, to another person if the taking is for the purpose of private development or other private use of the property." Hydro Quebec IS a private company and IS profiting from this!

In March of this year The NH House approved a bill blocking the utility companies from taking private land regarding the Northern Pass Project by an overwhelming 317 - 51. Make no mistake however this is far from over as Hydro Quebec has given PSNH / Northeast Utilities millions of dollars to fight this. They have also put almost every lawyer capable of trying this case on retainer to keep anyone against it out of their way. They have paid many many lobbyist and have many millions of dollars to try and force this down our throat.

Oh yeah here's another good one, Massachusetts who needs this power is shutting down Salem Harbor one of their primary electrical producing plants in 2014 which produces 800 Megawatts of electricity. Guess what most likely will be going in in it's place... A casino!!

Everyone needs to do their homework on this issue and follow the money for the real answers. Don't believe anything you see and hear on TV.

Dan
Right Dan I agree Northern Pass is not in our best interest and therefore should not be done period. We don't need power from anyone, if there is a need there is no reason why we can't produce it ourselves. If your data is accurate Dan where we are producing 75% more power than we need it's unconscionable as why this is even being considered! What isn't surprising is that there are lots of pockets that will be padded if it is allowed to happen. Thankfully it looks like the state legislature is on the ball here and overwhelmingly saying no! So with no support from the legislature and clearly enough support to override the Gov on this why isn't it a dead issue? Guess I need to brush up on this one some more.

However back to what I was saying in regards to running or extending the power grid, I can see where eminent domain could in theory be used to run lines and is it accurate to say that PSNH and NE Utilities are all for profit companies too? I'm asking only because I don't know for sure. Needless to say the power grid is a matter of public interest and a necessity so I'm just saying I can see where eminent domain could be applied and would directly benefit for profit companies again subtracting the whole Northern Pass project from the equation. That said, and assuming that my premise is accurate on the for profit status of these entities, massive oversight should be put in place to ensure that any seizure of land is done so with due process and only where absolutely necessary with minimal impacts to the rights of land owners. I just can't see how it would be possible to expand the power grid if eminent domain were not a last case resort assuming the expansion was needed in the first place.

Plus we do have an electricity consumption tax what's that collected for?

Looking south of the border - NH should just take notes on what MA does as it's a great lesson in how NOT to do things!
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Old 07-11-2011, 11:46 AM   #8
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Maxum, I don't understand why it is still on the table either.

One thing that I am curious about. Are they really taking the land by Eminant Domain or just exercising a public utilities easement? The reason I ask is that Eminant Domain allows for the ownership of the property to be seized. Public utility easements are written into the deeds of the properties affected, but the ownership of that land never changes.

We looked at a piece of property about 10 years ago that had a Public Utilities easement that "could" allow for the installation of future overhead transmission lines. That easement had been written into that deed, well over 60 years prior. If you look at a zoning map of Loudon, it is clearly visible.

I think the idea of Northern Pass is one that should be fought with all of our hearts and souls. If Mass wants or needs more power than they have, they should get to building those wind mills off "their" coast instead of messing with more of NH.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:34 PM   #9
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Right Dan I agree Northern Pass is not in our best interest and therefore should not be done period. We don't need power from anyone, if there is a need there is no reason why we can't produce it ourselves. If your data is accurate Dan where we are producing 75% more power than we need it's unconscionable as why this is even being considered! What isn't surprising is that there are lots of pockets that will be padded if it is allowed to happen. Thankfully it looks like the state legislature is on the ball here and overwhelmingly saying no! So with no support from the legislature and clearly enough support to override the Gov on this why isn't it a dead issue? Guess I need to brush up on this one some more.

However back to what I was saying in regards to running or extending the power grid, I can see where eminent domain could in theory be used to run lines and is it accurate to say that PSNH and NE Utilities are all for profit companies too? I'm asking only because I don't know for sure. Needless to say the power grid is a matter of public interest and a necessity so I'm just saying I can see where eminent domain could be applied and would directly benefit for profit companies again subtracting the whole Northern Pass project from the equation. That said, and assuming that my premise is accurate on the for profit status of these entities, massive oversight should be put in place to ensure that any seizure of land is done so with due process and only where absolutely necessary with minimal impacts to the rights of land owners. I just can't see how it would be possible to expand the power grid if eminent domain were not a last case resort assuming the expansion was needed in the first place.

Plus we do have an electricity consumption tax what's that collected for?

Looking south of the border - NH should just take notes on what MA does as it's a great lesson in how NOT to do things!
Let me clarify something, depending on which source of information you review NH currently exports 50% - 75% of it's electricity. I should not have just stated 75%. With that being said the fact is in In 1999 we exported 4,689,000 MWhs and used 11.5 million MWh. We are not the only net exporter of electricity in New England as Maine and Vermont also currently produce more than they use I am pretty sure Rhode Island does as well but I do not have those numbers in front of me so I cannot confirm.

Dan

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Old 07-11-2011, 01:20 PM   #10
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I'm currently clueless about this, any good site to get the unvarnished data? I know that no one site will be fair to both side, how about on pro site and one con site?
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:31 PM   #11
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I'm currently clueless about this, any good site to get the unvarnished data? I know that no one site will be fair to both side, how about on pro site and one con site?
http://burynorthernpass.blogspot.com...n-members.html
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:47 PM   #12
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Hello Everyone,

It has been quite a while since I weighed in on this Winnipesaukee Forum site. You may recall I was active last summer and fall regarding the plans for a sailing center at Ellacoya and that project is still very much in play, but off the front burner for a while as the State of NH does some master planning of its facilities.

I do however want to weigh in on the Northern Pass issue. 14,000+/- feet of this proposed power line run right through the middle of my project up in Campton, the Owl's Nest Resort & Golf Club, and it would wreak havoc if it were ever to be built. I say this because as I speak to you about the Northern Pass (NP), I want to be up front about the bias I have against this project. This having been said, I want to address a few of the issues that have been brought up by others as factually and as objectively as I possibly can:

1. New Hampshire (NH) does indeed produce a lot more power from generating sources within NH's borders than it uses. In 2010, NH companies generated 188% of our own state's power needs and the excess was delivered into the New England Power Grid. Massachusetts, on the other hand, had a serious deficit of intrastate power production, generating only 76% of its own state's needs in 2010 and this problem is going to get worse, especially when the Salem (MA) Harbor Power Plant shuts down in 2015 (refer to www.smartergridconsulting.com for more details).

MA has been very reluctant to bite the power bullet, often fighting against possible new sources of power. The Cape Wind project is on an indefinite hold while it looks for companies to purchase its power. National Grid has acted very responsibly by ageeing to buy half of Cape Wind's power, but N-STAR, the old Boston Edison, has refused to step up to the plate and as a result, the future of that project is very much in doubt making a bad situation in MA even worse. It is N-STAR that is counting on the Northern Pass hydro power to get bailed out of a bad situation that it has essentially created and is continuing to make worse.

NH on the other hand, has 66 separate power generation sources within its borders including nuclear, coal, natural gas, hydro, biomass, solar and wind, and many new projects are on the drawing boards. NH's power future is bright indeed. Furthermore, NH's citizens have been using less power, largely through conservation techniques, year after year since 1997.

2. The Northern Pass project continues to insist on bringing its power down from Canada on huge steel towers through many of our state's most sensitive and scenic regions. To succeed, NP must forcibly take hundreds of properties by eminent domain causing untold destruction of people's lives, damaging dozens of businesses, many of which will fail, and putting far more people out of work than it will ever put to work. The NP, when completed, will provide employment to about five permanent workers in its power conversion plant in Franklin.

What you have been hearing about--1200 jobs--is fundamentally untrue. There will be 200 t0 300 temporary woods related jobs for a year, possible a little bit longer, but all the high paying jobs will go to out of state unionized high tension line crews brought in to assemble the towers and to string the cables.

3. NP has been saying for months that it's too expensive to place its lines underground, but just yesterday, National Grid announced that in combination with Bangor Hydro, it will be bringing an underground 1100 Mega Watt HVDC line from wind farms in northern Maine and hydro projects in the Canadian Maritime provinces 230 miles underground starting in Orrington, ME down to Tewksbury, MA. All of a sudden, Northern Pass has gone very silent and the politicians that PSNH has bought in Concord are nowhere to be found.

There's a lot more going on, much of it behind closed doors in the NH Statehouse where PSNH's paid lobbyists are button holing every legislator they can get there hands on and I will come back to this site as issues pop up and as more of you have questions that need answers, but most of you seem to be on the right track. Because this is classified as an "Optional Project" by ISO-New England and because it has not been classified as needed for "System Reliability" it does not get to use Eminent Domain. Back in 2006, over 85% of New Hampshire's voters passed Article 12-a of our state's Constitution denying the use of Eminent Domain to private interests engaging in private, for profit projects. Northern Pass wants to be able to generate a guaranteed return of nearly 13% per annum on its $1.2 Billion Dollar investment and to not be regulated by the NH Public Utilities Commission That type of company is not eligible for Eminent Domain.

Thanks for bringing this issue to light on the Winnipesaukee Forum. I can be reached at 603-759-2510 or by e-mail at tntmullen@owlsnestgolf.com if you would like to discuss these matters in person.

Regards,

Tom Mullen
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Old 07-13-2011, 04:47 PM   #13
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The more I get "educated" on this project, the less I like it. The "propaganda" supplied by them is very misleading and deceptive. Thanx TNT.
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:14 PM   #14
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One thing that I am curious about. Are they really taking the land by Eminant Domain or just exercising a public utilities easement?.
No one has answered your question yet.

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Old 08-21-2011, 04:46 PM   #15
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No one has answered your question yet.
See post #12, line item # 2.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:45 PM   #16
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And you know when they take land by eminent domain, they don't want to pay you what it is worth.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:56 PM   #17
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Thank you all for this thread. I am getting educated on this issue thanks to all of you. I've seen the signs "stop Northern Pass" which by the way are far more abundant in far northern stretches of the state than the central and southern portions, and I wanted to know more.
I can tell you that as a MA resident I'm against this project even if there might be potential electricity savings to me personally. It bothers me that this is even being considered!!!!
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Old 12-27-2011, 06:28 AM   #18
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It looks like the Balsams resort owners elected to bypass the 2.2 million dollar offer from the Northern pass project and for 850.00 allowed 5800 acres around the resort hotel to be put into conservation. For now this effectively blocks the path for the northern pass project. More proof that NH residents do not want N-star putting up towers thru the north country.
Maybe they will be forced to bury the lines after all.

http://www.wmur.com/news/30068670/detail.html
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Old 12-27-2011, 07:25 AM   #19
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The more I get "educated" on this project, the less I like it. The "propaganda" supplied by them is very misleading and deceptive. Thanx TNT.
Does that really surprise you ?
A man I once worked for told me to Never believe anything you read and only half of what you see.
I enjoyed reading this thread. I learned some new things and it all helped to confirm my earlier opinions and misgivings on the Northern Pass
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:19 PM   #20
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"A recent editorial in the Citizen of Laconia discussed the need for a fair and impartial assessment of both needs and options for the Northern Pass Project. The New Hampshire Coalition for Secure Energy supports this approach; we too are dedicated to finding commonsense solutions to our stateís dependence on fossil fuels. "

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