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Old 06-16-2010, 09:57 AM   #101
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I have to agree 100% with Mink Islander's post. Unfortunately his response has now been buried by the repetitious point-counterpoint of several that have repeatedly stated their positions here and in countless other threads.

Here's a suggestion.

While it is apparent that there are several independent thinkers posting here, the vast opinion shared has either come from the SBONH or WINNFABS corner.

The sad thing?

Neither organization has seen fit to keep their websites up to date or more importantly provide an open forum on their sites to allow this discussion to occur on their respective dime.

Nope, both organizations have opted to camp out, free of charge, on Don's door step.

I would respectfully ask that both organizations at a minimum update their respective websites. Then I would hope to see that both organizations implement a comments section on their sites and take this and the veiled but continual speed limits discussions over there.

How about it?
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:07 AM   #102
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Skip,

Sent you a PM
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:37 AM   #103
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So as I started to spread some facts into this discussion yesterday I though I would finish today... I did a little more looking around to day and found the information I was looking for related to the fly by sound reading and it basis at 50 feet... what I found was this... for a given distance if you increase your distance by that same amount away from a given noise source you decrease the source level by 6 db... hence at 50 ft... you can calculate a 12 db loss at 150 ft. And with the 150 ft rule no boat should be operating at speed closer then 150 feet from you.

Now with a 82 db requirement on a fly by pass at 50 feet... you can see that at 150 feet the sound should be down to 70 db at 150 ft.... Mathematically speaking of course.... now from my previous post... that puts us at the same db level as a normal conversation between two adults doesn't it... hummm even quieter then the traffic in Meredith on the weekends for all that matters....

Now on to some other points here... we are talking about db... sound pressure folks... its what causes the damage... to the ear drums... now how loud something appears is a different story all together, and depends on many many factors... such as... distance, dampening material between you and the device... room for echo.... other ambient noises at the time, etc. etc.....

These folks are the facts of the situation.... If a boat is legal... there is nothing to complain about... Because if you complain about the noise of the boats... you better complain, about the traffic in Meredith, your conversations in your yard... The vacuum cleaner, and your radio.... most people listen to their radio at a db level of around 70 - 80 dbs.....

So here is the deal... There is a existing law... it is sound in more then one way according to everything I can find... If you feel someone has a boat that doesn't conform to the law, talk to the Marine Patrol, they will investigate. Just remember the next time your out on your dock talking in the boat... your neighbor just down the shore front may call the police on you for making to much noise.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:13 AM   #104
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Now I won't even begin to suggest I'm an expert on the subject here, but to your point LIforrelaxin...

I'll generalize here and say that anything that is capable of making noise would thus be measurable at any particular distance which is what laws stipulate depending on what it is you're talking about. Perception of how loud they are can be relative, and in some cases depending on the situation actually may appear to be magnified. Case in point, look at the hat shell in Boston or my favorite Red Rocks in Colorado. These places one made made, the other God made have acoustical properties that appear to magnify sound. So while from a pure db perspective the noise levels may be considered acceptable in certain cases they could "appear" to be far worse. That is something that the law can't address so it is what it is and certainly not anything the operator of a boat can control. Good bad or indifferent, it's my best stab at a "very" scientific observation based on absolutely no scientific knowledge or theory in said discipline. .... it just sounds good to me!
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:26 AM   #105
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-Good Point

To Sunset on the Dock, I understand wanting to enjoy a quite evening on the water so I am not busting you here. Maybe I am wrong, but it sounds like you looked out and saw and heard as you said a 25' boat, and I am filling in the rest of the description... newer Deep-V style, what is so often described as a Go Fast Boat.

If so, I just want to know honestly if you had looked out to see what the noise was and saw an old wooden, say Christ Craft speed boat, would you have had the same reaction or made the post. I ask because we live near an area that a lot of older wooden boats are run on a regular basis and they are equally as loud. Some of them I know are rigged with 12 and 16 cylinder engines believe it or not and some do over 70, even the majority of the ones with 8 are quite loud.

Maybe it would have felt more like On Golden Pond and Less Like Miami Vice?
Just asking
Been close to 24 hours and no answer to your question. Why am I not surprised?
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:52 AM   #106
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Now I won't even begin to suggest I'm an expert on the subject here, but to your point LIforrelaxin...

I'll generalize here and say that anything that is capable of making noise would thus be measurable at any particular distance which is what laws stipulate depending on what it is you're talking about. Perception of how loud they are can be relative, and in some cases depending on the situation actually may appear to be magnified. Case in point, look at the hat shell in Boston or my favorite Red Rocks in Colorado. These places one made made, the other God made have acoustical properties that appear to magnify sound. So while from a pure db perspective the noise levels may be considered acceptable in certain cases they could "appear" to be far worse. That is something that the law can't address so it is what it is and certainly not anything the operator of a boat can control. Good bad or indifferent, it's my best stab at a "very" scientific observation based on absolutely no scientific knowledge or theory in said discipline. .... it just sounds good to me!
Maxxum,

You bring up a good point, which is why the law is written the way it is. And why a boat exhaust must be a fixed apparatus. The Marine Patrol can test a boat, record what the system design is... and then if they come back to the boat do to an issue in the future they can look at the system, verify nothing has changed, and either say the boat has been previously been tested and is ok... or say, the system has changed and the boat needs to be retested. By not allowing any switching in the system there is no question as to how the boat was running.

Now as for your acoustical reference to the hat shell and Red Rock, this is not acoustical amplification... The only way to get more power is to add more power. Both venues how ever focus the sound and project it in a direction.... Because the sound is projected correctly in these venues the required input sound to create the projected output is much less then in venues such as the Comcast Center or Meadow Brook.... where the sound is simply released into the air. These venues don't Produce louder sounds they just require less amplified input to deliver the required sound. They are also both acoustically sound meaning that they project the complete sound spectrum and don't absorb part of it thus project another area unfairly.

Now what happens in a boat... or with the cry of a loon is that sound is echo across the water much like it is in a canyon... the water is a hard surface and the sound just travels along it, until it hits something that absorbs it. Such as other sound waves, the shoreline, etc. The reason a single boat all by itself sounds so much louder then multiple boats on a busy day, is that the single set of noise waves travel further with out getting disturbed or canceled out.

Folks once again do some research this information is all available quite easily... Bottom line once again there is an already appropriate law on the books that fully handles the situation and is completely adequate... If you think you have a problem... report it...
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:13 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
So as I started to spread some facts into this discussion yesterday I though I would finish today... I did a little more looking around to day and found the information I was looking for related to the fly by sound reading and it basis at 50 feet... what I found was this... for a given distance if you increase your distance by that same amount away from a given noise source you decrease the source level by 6 db... hence at 50 ft... you can calculate a 12 db loss at 150 ft. And with the 150 ft rule no boat should be operating at speed closer then 150 feet from you.

Now with a 82 db requirement on a fly by pass at 50 feet... you can see that at 150 feet the sound should be down to 70 db at 150 ft.... Mathematically speaking of course.... now from my previous post... that puts us at the same db level as a normal conversation between two adults doesn't it... hummm even quieter then the traffic in Meredith on the weekends for all that matters....

Now on to some other points here... we are talking about db... sound pressure folks... its what causes the damage... to the ear drums... now how loud something appears is a different story all together, and depends on many many factors... such as... distance, dampening material between you and the device... room for echo.... other ambient noises at the time, etc. etc.....

These folks are the facts of the situation.... If a boat is legal... there is nothing to complain about... Because if you complain about the noise of the boats... you better complain, about the traffic in Meredith, your conversations in your yard... The vacuum cleaner, and your radio.... most people listen to their radio at a db level of around 70 - 80 dbs.....

So here is the deal... There is a existing law... it is sound in more then one way according to everything I can find... If you feel someone has a boat that doesn't conform to the law, talk to the Marine Patrol, they will investigate. Just remember the next time your out on your dock talking in the boat... your neighbor just down the shore front may call the police on you for making to much noise.

Here's another factor that most people are not aware of, even as a HONDA CIVIC comes tooling up the street toward you... (Actually it's a Self Propelled Sub Woofer.) The Doppler Effect makes sound measurement even more difficult to reliably deal with. NB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_Effect
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:19 PM   #108
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It's so sad how this forum has been degraded by all the rabid posters -- on both sides -- of a number of well known topics. A simple complaint about a loud boat turns into full throttle nastiness by all the usual suspects.

Some of you -- indeed most of you -- could just try letting someone have an opinion different than your own and not feel the need to jump in and jump on the "offender".

I've noticed a lot of former frequent posters are rarely seen or heard anymore. I suspect that, like me, they are tired of the tit for tat, angry and denigrating posts that so many of you think constitutes healthy "debate". You know it's ok to let someone have an opinion that is different from your own. Sometimes saying nothing is the better response. More than a few of you should try that more often and then maybe this forum might return to the civil and constructive source for shared ideas and experience that it once was.

I'll get off my soap box now....
Yes...and look at this PM as an example. Kind of sad. ?TWI? I think this post disturbed my wife more than me. SOTD

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I hope those nasty boats and motorcylcles do disturb your tranquil shangrli-la!

Sleep tight and say night night to EC (we bonded and have decided to become buddies) for me as well.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:26 PM   #109
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I really liked things a lot better when we all got to complain and laugh at the Capt. Boneheads instead of each other. I hope not, but fear, that this is what passes for serious debate on the internet. It is too tiring to interpret what the political underpinnings are for every discussion. Sad. And yes, I know I don't have to participate if I don't want to but that really is beside the point.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:35 PM   #110
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I really liked things a lot better when we all got to complain and laugh at the Capt. Boneheads instead of each other. I hope not, but fear, that this is what passes for serious debate on the internet. It is too tiring to interpret what the political underpinnings are for every discussion. Sad. And yes, I know I don't have to participate if I don't want to but that really is beside the point.
Newbie,

It is indeed sad that things can't be debated without personalization attached. For the most part myself I am trying to stay out of things, and just get the facts out there. Hence my involvement here....

Hopefully people will digest the facts and begin to understand what the facts tell us... not what emotions tell us...
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:48 PM   #111
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Yes...and look at this PM as an example. Kind of sad. ?TWI? I think this post disturbed my wife more than me. SOTD
Sunset,
I got a nasty and unprovoked IM from this same POS too. A perfect example of why this loud little gang is losing its influence and privileges. This small group that talks so loud needs to linger on this forum to find soul mates...even during motorcycle week... there is simply no place else they can find peopel who think the way they do. All one needs to do to understand the mentality is to hear the argument above; "I put up with your quiet, so you should put up with my loud noise". The saddest part to me is that people from outside the region see this forum and might get the impression that these few jerks represent the attitude and personality of the people here...which could not be further from the truth. It's not "kind of sad"...its "very sad".
 
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:57 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post

It is indeed sad that things can't be debated without personalization attached. For the most part myself I am trying to stay out of things, and just get the facts out there. Hence my involvement here....

Hopefully people will digest the facts and begin to understand what the facts tell us... not what emotions tell us...
Yep you're 100% right on here. LIforrelaxin gets it. Even though I may not necessarily appreciate your boat as much as you do, if ever the day comes where we end up anchored side by side you can expect a friendly wave and if I have enough on board the offer of an ice cold adult beverage. A virtual toast to you sir!

This weekend looks to be a beauty I know I'll be out there enjoying it.... loud boats and all.... there simply is no better place to spend a perfect summer's day.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:07 PM   #113
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Sunset,
I got a nasty and unprovoked IM from this same POS too. A perfect example of why this loud little gang is losing its influence and privileges. This small group that talks so loud needs to linger on this forum to find soul mates...even during motorcycle week... there is simply no place else they can find peopel who think the way they do. All one needs to do to understand the mentality is to hear the argument above; "I put up with your quiet, so you should put up with my loud noise". The saddest part to me is that people from outside the region see this forum and might get the impression that these few jerks represent the attitude and personality of the people here...which could not be further from the truth. It's not "kind of sad"...its "very sad".
Why do you think it's ok to insult people, when you yourself take issue with insults and conflict?
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:11 PM   #114
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Sunset,
Ia
Quote:
got
impression that these few jerks represent the attitude and personality of the people here...which could not be further from the truth. It's not "kind of sad"...its "very sad".
The funny thing here is that both you and Sunset are the jerks. You just don't get it. While I don't think the personal attacks on you are right, neither was this thread and your associated responses.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:47 PM   #115
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Thumbs up Skip is right as usual

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I have to agree 100% with Mink Islander's post. Unfortunately his response has now been buried by the repetitious point-counterpoint of several that have repeatedly stated their positions here and in countless other threads. {snip SBONH vs WINNFABS}
I would respectfully ask that both organizations at a minimum update their respective websites. Then I would hope to see that both organizations implement a comments section on their sites and take this and the veiled but continual speed limits discussions over there.

Excellent points Skip. Repetitious sometimes ridiculous posts smothering the real issues and topics. I perceive that the sides are represented loosely by groups. One is older and more practiced at trying to rationalize their agenda while the other group formed more recently to try to show the fallacies of some propaganda. The former seems to think that the more times and ways they say something the more true it appears. They try to bury and discredit posts by those who like it the way it was. It is very sad how a handful of fabulous people can change the whole complexion of Don's web site.

I'm also 100% with you on updating web pages. Both of the groups mentioned should be current and keep their web presence up to date (as should those green map makers but that's another story also involving speed limit information).

For the record, I don't like very loud boats, cycles, sound systems etc. But there are sound laws in place for that and I put up with the legal noise. Meadowbrook concerts keep me awake at night and I hate it. I do not have a go fast boat but am not troubled by those that do. There were pre-SL laws (150' rule and others) in place to deal with those concerns too. I'm very tired of plodding through almost endless rhetoric to get to the good and meaningful posts.

Thanks Skip. Ever thought of being an arbitrator?
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:09 PM   #116
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Sunset,
I got a nasty and unprovoked IM from this same POS too. A perfect example of why this loud little gang is losing its influence and privileges. This small group that talks so loud needs to linger on this forum to find soul mates...even during motorcycle week... there is simply no place else they can find peopel who think the way they do. All one needs to do to understand the mentality is to hear the argument above; "I put up with your quiet, so you should put up with my loud noise". The saddest part to me is that people from outside the region see this forum and might get the impression that these few jerks represent the attitude and personality of the people here...which could not be further from the truth. It's not "kind of sad"...its "very sad".
Hi EL. I see you corrected most of your Mis-Spellings. This is good. I have been using this FREE Spell Checker for awhile and it works. Try it. NB

http://www.iespell.com/download.php

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Old 06-16-2010, 05:35 PM   #117
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The funny thing here is that both you and Sunset are the jerks. You just don't get it. While I don't think the personal attacks on you are right, neither was this thread and your associated responses.
From what I can see on this thread there have been quite a few members who seem to have issues with loud boats/other inconsiderate noise. Because these people may feel some boats are too loud, are they all jerks too? It's not unreasonable to voice concern as some boats are indeed over the limit in terms of legal decibels. Some of the responses, well, it's almost like trying to argue with some junior high kid (a number of which seem clearly to be failing English class). And they're so darned over the top in terms of anger and theatrics. Replies like "get a life", "pleeeeeeeaaaaaase" and the like hardly reach the dizzying heights of clever repartee. The level to which some of the dialogue here has descended concerns me.
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:12 PM   #118
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APS, Please expand upon your comment here. I have on more then one occasion decided a issue was bad enough on the water that I would talk to the Marine Patrol. On those occasions I have never felt I was being Interrogated. The MP officers have always...[etc]
I've always found NHMP officers to be reasonable and perfectly friendly.

This year, however, dial that number to see that things are different at home-base: the problem is the caller and not the offender.

Fortunately, I've been able to relay the too-loud exhausts from my end of the telephone line; otherwise, be prepared to defend the need for calling in the first place.
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:37 PM   #119
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From what I can see on this thread there have been quite a few members who seem to have issues with loud boats/other inconsiderate noise. Because these people may feel some boats are too loud, are they all jerks too? It's not unreasonable to voice concern as some boats are indeed over the limit in terms of legal decibels. Some of the responses, well, it's almost like trying to argue with some junior high kid (a number of which seem clearly to be failing English class). And they're so darned over the top in terms of anger and theatrics. Replies like "get a life", "pleeeeeeeaaaaaase" and the like hardly reach the dizzying heights of clever repartee. The level to which some of the dialogue here has descended concerns me.
I thought this was an informal discussion about Winnipesaukee and boat noise, not an English class. My perception is that you're much older than me, but I'll be the more mature one and end this here. See you on the lake, likely towards the N.E. area (Northern Wboro, Tboro, Melvin Village area).
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:53 PM   #120
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From what I can see on this thread there have been quite a few members who seem to have issues with loud boats/other inconsiderate noise. Because these people may feel some boats are too loud, are they all jerks too? It's not unreasonable to voice concern as some boats are indeed over the limit in terms of legal decibels. Some of the responses, well, it's almost like trying to argue with some junior high kid (a number of which seem clearly to be failing English class). And they're so darned over the top in terms of anger and theatrics. Replies like "get a life", "pleeeeeeeaaaaaase" and the like hardly reach the dizzying heights of clever repartee. The level to which some of the dialogue here has descended concerns me.
Believe it or not, I get very angry when there is a boat that is excessively loud. I spent several thousands of dollars on the appropriate mufflers to be in compliance. Once in a while, there will be a vistor up for a weekend that is not legal, decibel wise. That makes it tough on all of us. I have had alot of performance boaters call me before they come to the lake and all of them purchased mufflers and installed them before they were launched at the lake. I respect your rights and hopefully you can respect mine.The law is in place.

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Old 06-16-2010, 08:51 PM   #121
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I don't think I'll ever own a performance boat, but I like watching them go by (especailly when they are really moving) and really appreciate when they do so at a reasonable volume level. The only time I don't mind loud boats (or any other vehicle) is when they are actually racing or being demonstrated in a sanctioned event.

If you've never seen a top fuel dragster in person, I highly recommend you do so before you die. They are absurdly loud, but utterly impressive
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:01 PM   #122
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I don't think I'll ever own a performance boat, but I like watching them go by (especailly when they are really moving) and really appreciate when they do so at a reasonable volume level. The only time I don't mind loud boats (or any other vehicle) is when they are actually racing or being demonstrated in a sanctioned event.

If you've never seen a top fuel dragster in person, I highly recommend you do so before you die. They are absurdly loud, but utterly impressive
I completely agree!

When you can feel the HP from your ears to your toes, it really impresses.

I get a similar feeling at NHMS, once NHIS, when the cars are accelerating down the front stretch. And, if you have ever had the opportunity to see a space shuttle launch in Florida, if that does not get your heart pumping faster, nothing will. Power can be very beautiful in the eyes of the beholder and noise is part of the overall experience.

If the vehicle is legal in its environment, bring it on!

R2B
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:48 PM   #123
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I thought of this thread today when I was sitting at the steering wheel and heard a loud, offensive noise. It's something we often listen to but yet it hasn't come up yet on this thread as being an irritating noise: it was a #$%$ leafblower.

To me, those things are worse than Harley loud pipes... if you hear the Harley pipes, at least they're going in another direction and you won't have to listen to them for long....

Ditto with a boat. At least the engine is running - they're moving, right?

But those WHOOORRRRRR-WOOOORRRRR-WHOOOORRRRR leaf blowers are far, far more offensive. They're powered by a motor and run by someone on two legs - they're going no where fast - or fast enough.

So write your area rep, state senator, congressman, etc. and ask them for noise limits law for leaf blowers. The world will be a better place.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:32 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elchase View Post
Sunset,
I got a nasty and unprovoked IM from this same POS too. A perfect example of why this loud little gang is losing its influence and privileges. This small group that talks so loud needs to linger on this forum to find soul mates...even during motorcycle week... there is simply no place else they can find peopel who think the way they do. All one needs to do to understand the mentality is to hear the argument above; "I put up with your quiet, so you should put up with my loud noise". The saddest part to me is that people from outside the region see this forum and might get the impression that these few jerks represent the attitude and personality of the people here...which could not be further from the truth. It's not "kind of sad"...its "very sad".
I tried to take my response to some of your baseless attacks on fellow members off the forum boards and use the PM system. I stand by the PM I sent to you and have no issue if you post it in its entirety as long you post your response. My PM was not nasty, yours was (though I did find it somewhat amusing).

If anyone would like a copy, including Don, please PM and I will send it along.

Have a nice day El, it's bikeweek and I have some work to get done and then some riding to do.
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