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Old 09-24-2004, 08:07 PM   #101
LRSLA
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Default friends for ever

Sorry for the addition, ok just DOGS.... more then ONE... :-)

As for the article, the point that it makes is that a
lake acts like an amphitheater. In essence a lake and the
surrounding geological structure is a very efficient
focuser of sound waves.

I think there is a place for us to come together on
boating safety.

On the noise issue, if boaters were willing
to be tested operational an were willing to muffle to a set level
i think most lake residents could live with an 80db limit.
This would be 150% in intensity over 75dB. I think the wardens
would go for this also. But there would have to be a concerted effort
by all to meet this standard.

We could also work on safety zone issues and times of operation.
We get a lot of complaints from Brandy Pond due to late night
operation. We also get a lot of calls on noise issue in monday cove
and up lake. On sebago raymond cape has had a lot of issues with
noise and safety zone violations. Witches Cove, Muddy River Bog
has been having issues with head way speed violations and noise
violations.
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Old 09-24-2004, 08:39 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan
I really respect you and Biggus for doing that. I have no complaints with any boat that is operated safely and within the law. The problem is you two are the ONLY "offshore" owners I've ever seen respond like that.

Unfortunately anyone that is concerned about excessively loud boats is usually shouted down and told "If you don't like it leave" or Will's classics "offshores...will become louder, people just need to learn to live with it" and "How do you get off saying that a preferrably loud boat is a problem?". Many (not all) offshore owners come off like bullies who really don't care about the effects their boats can have on others around them (IMHO).

I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you. I just wish that other offshore owners could discuss this without the often arrogant "eat my exhaust" attitude. I think you can see that attitude in many of the messages posted here. It really gets my blood boiling that some people can be so selfish and inconsiderate. I believe those attitudes force concerned people to form groups like the LRSLA.
Yes I agree that there are Offshore power boaters with that attitude. However there are other types of boaters with the same attitude when it comes to other things. I could also say that people that want the lake quite take it to the different extream. "you either have a quite boat or you can not boat with out getting a fine......". EVERY person that I know of on that lake have taken measures to quite their boats if they do not fall into the legal limits. One poor guy had to do it twice as his tips fell off because his son did not tighten them down.

As far as that attitude that has been taken on other web sites I guess they are not in the area and as I said most do not visit the lakes so you can not put much weight in what they say. I know that all of us on the river have taken action to quite our boats. I thought that would be enough but it does not seem so.......

Jon
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Old 09-24-2004, 08:58 PM   #103
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"What are we talking about here, recreational boating.

So your TOTAL enjoyment of your recreational boat
supersedes my ability to enjoy my home?

Lets see HOME>>>>BOAT //// FAMILY LIFE >>>> FUN PARTYING

Which should out way the other?????"

Well it depends on how you prioritize things. My boating is a way for me to blow off steam. To enjoy myself after a stressfull week of working from 6am to 2am each day. My family enjoys going out on the boat and having a good time, it is some of the best quality time that we spend together. Why is it that your house is more "valuable" then my boat? That is like saying your time is worth more then mine.... Always hated that.... Besides some of these boats cost more then yours and my house......

"I think this is the issue that really isn't appreciated for lack of better
term by OS's. Hell the issue and stress and the harassment had me so worked up that I ended up in the emergency room in Bridgton with chest pains.

How about the cost to me in medical bills. Now you might forward that I have otherissues that caused this hospital visit. I would forward that the noise and the Harassment stressed me out so much that I practically had a nervous breakdown.

SOME PEOPLE RESPOND TO NOISE DIFFERENTLY. NOISE EFFECTS
SOME PEPLE MORE THEN OTHERS. There do you understand now."

No I do not understand now. You youself said that there could be other heath issues that cause your chest pains..... You sound to be a bit of a dramma queen hear. How about me and all the hassles and money that I had to spend due to your organization? Do you take into account the effect that you have had on my life? NO YOU DO NOT. All you care about is your life and YOUR property. Well if you wanted ON GOLDEN POND then you moved to the wrong place. We all have complied with the law now you want to make the laws MORE strickt. Plus I have to question the sanity of some one that would even step foot into the Bridgton emergency center.

"You can forward all you like that your noise is not disruptive, it is and
it is to the extent I am forwarding. Why do you think I am spending the
time on this forum, I love Winne, great lake, but I other thing that I would rather be doing.

Your right my kids could not believe the noise that ONE SPEED put out.
You do hear them on the video, hey they are six years old.
So your pointing out that you share something in common with six year olds, no kidding.

What you don't hear on the video is what my kids also say when an OS goes by the house. "there go the BOZO boats" Of course they are responding to the impact that the boats have had on my life, they are my kids, they love me.

I am sure your kids love you and that is the best thing that a father can have. You and I also know that they got BOZO boats from you, and you made fun of me being like a 6 year old? Hey if your 6 year old thinks our boats are cool that is fine by me. He can not like them, also fine by me. I just hope that some day he will make up his own mind about the issue not the one sided story that he seems to be getting from you. I have always said that to be far right or far left is a very bad thing.

"As for the number of time OS boats go by my house on a weekend day,
how about thirty to forty times. I figure I have at least a combined hour or
noise from boats a day on a weekend day.

Personally the only thing I care about is my family and my health and the
integrity of my investment in my home.

If you buy a boat that can't be run legally deal with it. There is a reason it's not legal.I'm tired of being gentle on this issue. Obviously you don't believe that I have been impacted by the noise on the lake. And I am not a single voice here.

I have spoken to hundreds of residents that feel just as I do and at the same level. The laws have been on the books for years, nuf said.

One last thing, when a group online holds a forum were they malign and
threaten and plan ways to F#@$K with a regular decent fellow that is only being active in his community, then that forum is nothing more then a MOB.
A bunch of uncivilized lawbreaking jerks."

40 times in a day!!! COME ON!!! You are dreaming and exagerating. When I go out it is up the lake and down the lake as do most of the boats that you are complaining about. So you are saying that there are 20 of us going up and down the lake in a day. I am not trying to belittle what you seem to be going through, however I am saying that you are EXAGERATING to a vary large extent the problem. You CAN have a conversation with a person that is 3 feet away from you, but you say that you can not. 40 passes a day... Not on the bussiest of them. As for the people that threatened you, some did, some did not, and I disgree with the ones that did.

"Now in fairness OSO has some 22,000 members. I am not naming names,
you know who you are, I have the posts from OSO, your on the record.
Those same posts have been emailed to Maine IFW and the town of Naples
Select Board. The goings on, on OSO are wrong. The admins should
shut down a thread that exhibits the post that I have seen."

People will be people and as you see them attacking you, can't you see that what you are doing is attacking us?
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Old 09-24-2004, 09:07 PM   #104
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Just curious:

Have you ever recently been to concerts, the symphony, sporting event or anything similiar?

Are you going to tell your sons that they can not go to a concert because the sound will be to loud and will raise their stress levels?

Earlier you said that your gradfather I believe it was was part of the Pep Boys deal. Do you still own stocks in the company? If so do you condone the fart can mufflers that they sell to all the kids for their cars?

Why is it that you do not go after bikes with loud exhaust? Is it due to the fact that you are scared of the threats that you will recieve from them, or the fact that you know that they are more organized then us?

Jon
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Old 09-25-2004, 08:51 PM   #105
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Default respect is as respect does

I don't enjoy concerts, and I would be hard pressed to compare belching illegal boat exhaust to a Symphony.

The acceptance of noise is directly proportional to the perceived appropriateness of the noise event. SO noise at a race track is enjoyable because it is appropriate. Noise in your back yard might not be perceived as appropriate. This is what causes the impact and the stress caused by the event.

If my children want to attend a concert I might tell them to wear ear protection to protect their hearing. Once gain one expects high volume sound at a concert. People don't go to concerts to sleep or read books or talk on the phone.

As far as the impact on my health by noise. Please don't even assume to
pass judgement on this issue. Health impact caused by noise is so well documented that to suggest other wise is rediclulous. If I can acknowledge your enjoyment of your recreation whay can't your accept that it might be impacting my household.

I have nothing to do with Pep Boys, it is a publicly trade company if you own some stock and are not happy then sell your stock. Yes a family member was instrumental in building the company, so???

As for bikers on the streets, that can be some one else's battle.
I have spoken to individuals that are heavily impacted by biker noise.
Some towns are cracking down on this problem. There is one town on Long Island that set up road blocks this summer and every bike that came through had to be tested. As far as the issue it does replicate some of the issues we face on the lake.

One interesting part of the biker issue is that the noise does not carry as far.

As far as attacking you. I really don't think you can equate my requesting enforcement of on the books regulations with group sponsored harassment of an individual and his family.

I didn't come to your house at 2:00am and rev my engine at 90dB. I didn't drive by your house all day raking your shore line. I didn't call you late at night and tell you to leave town. I didn't flood your cell phone with bogus phone calls and disrupt you business activity. I didn't drag you through the mud online and level all sorts of personal attacks on a public online forum. I didn't call the Maine DEP on you and file false complaints.

All I did was start a safe boating and quiet lake association. Why because hundreds of residents supported wanted a voice. Why because I was driven to action because boats were operating illegally and brutally impacting my life. Why because I have spent twenty years on this lake and it is just in the last four that this noise issue have become a serious issue.

I will be very busy with work in the next week. I will not be able to post for another week.

I feel like I have to forward some words of wisdom.

The only thing that comes to mind is, If the actions of another begins to impact another, then that must be acknowledged. and the activity that is causing the impact must be mitigated.

The mitigation must be carried out , out of respect for others. There are at least 750 boats on our lake, 20 are causing the impact. I hope that we can come to a place were we can work on this issue together.
I am always open to communication. I always work very hard to be fair.
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Old 09-28-2004, 12:09 PM   #106
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Default Noise, Plus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac
...Everyone is going to have their own definition of too loud so I'll ask whether illegal exhaust systems are the major problem or whether the dB limits stated above are too high ?
It's both. The whole concept of "Loud Boats" needs a review by NH legislators.

It can be argued forever what constitutes a legal noise limit.

Proponents will state measurable dB limits, and detractors will forever pose arguments that "their" noise fully complies (when it may not on any particular weekend, depending on their mechanical skills); or the rest of us "need to get used to it", or "move to a quiet lake". (As though some of us had not, years before).

Isn't it true that 99.99% of Winnipesaukee outboards will pass the noise limits? (And most stock inboards). So why can't offshores? -- and why are they being "attacked"? Ten years ago, offshores used to be a novelty on Winnipesaukee. Not any longer.

There is a measurable component present in the noise of offshores that hasn't been looked at -- Consider "presence", rather than just noise.

Most days, nearly all the offshores -- and other noisy boats -- can be heard in passing without being seen! How can their "presence" be easily detected when they are on the opposite side of an island or peninsula?

Boaters who silently take in hours of sun off Rattlesnake Island (or sailors stuck in a calm there) can easily hear an offshore who is out of sight, registering just a minor increase in noise when it appears out from behind an island, many miles away. It is "presence".

"Presence" can also be felt through a wood dock. It's like the noisy vibrations at a rock concert. It's felt in the lungs or feet, rather than the ears. It's also sensed in the "sympathetic vibrations" of large glass or wood surfaces.

For some, like children, it's exilarating. For most adults, it's "just noise".

In still others, it evokes an anxiety, a flight response, or -- unable to flee -- perhaps a "fear" response to a boat that should be on the ocean.

(Don't some of us worry -- out there?).
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Old 09-28-2004, 01:13 PM   #107
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Why not just post a max speed limit on the lake, say 40 miles an hour.
Those offshores, and performance boats would have no interest in the lake.
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Old 09-28-2004, 01:45 PM   #108
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Default Logical ...

Certainly sounds logical. Could it be enforced?
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Old 09-28-2004, 02:18 PM   #109
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Default What were they 25 years ago...

Quote:
Originally Posted by madrasahs
Ten years ago, offshores used to be a novelty on Winnipesaukee.
So, how would you classify my situation 25 years ago, if they were a novelty 10 years ago?

Not all noisy boats are go-fasts. Some on the Lake are slow and loud.
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Old 09-30-2004, 09:04 AM   #110
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Thumbs up New Cam

Suggestion by a friend:

Put a "NoiseCam" on top of a marker, photographing the violators and sending the ticket to the registered owner.
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Old 10-01-2004, 08:44 PM   #111
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Default my 2 cents

I too am a Naples boater,you didn't see much of me on Long Lake this year due to the loud boat issue.I'm another one of those loud,obnoxious boaters,but unlike the rest,I kept a low profile and tried not to bring any attention to myself.I'm equipped with silent choice and kept my pipes quiet all season in fear of being stopped and ticketed.Now the season has come to an end and I look back on the worst boating season of my life.I've had my boat on this lake for 8 seasons without any trouble from anyone,always got the thumbs up from passing boaters.Not anymore.How relaxing can it be when your constantly boating on egg shells,wondering if your next in line to be hung?Well no more of it,I have as much right as anybody to be on the water and I will not tollerate such stupidity.LRSLA,you remind me of a kid who throws rocks at a hornets nest then cries when he gets stung!I'll do whatever it takes to make my boat pass,just barely,then I have a special spot on long lake to try it out,all day,everyday.BIGGUS,your boat rocks,I've NEVER heard anyone tell me different,even my 74 year old Mom loves it.Maybe next season the whole gang can get together and raft on Long Lake,I know a great spot.Thumbs up to all those hot boats!
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Old 10-02-2004, 11:44 AM   #112
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I have read through all of these post and I have just one question, I apologize in advance for my ignorance. Does a boat benifit from a louder exhaust ?
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Old 10-02-2004, 12:44 PM   #113
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Some do...most don't. It depends mostly on the size of the engine. An engine is basically an air pump. The more in , the more out , the more power. When it comes to very large engines , a "less restrictive" exhaust is an advantage.
This usually equates to louder
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Old 10-02-2004, 12:58 PM   #114
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another 1.... why would having a quiet exhaust make your boating experience so horrible?
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Old 10-02-2004, 02:34 PM   #115
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It's a guy thing
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Old 10-02-2004, 05:35 PM   #116
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Default I can't move my house

This message is to "Another 1".

I cannot believe how nasty and devoid of care
your posting is.

Don't you understand that having fun on a boat does not equate to
being able to live in peace in your house.

You can move your boat, You can muffle your boat.

I CAN'T MOVE MY HOUSE.

My house isn't emitting illegal levels of noise.
My house isn't impacting thousands of residents a day.
My house is for raising a family and living in, it is my
largest and most important investment. Can you say the
same about your boat?

Put your self in my shoes. Think about the one thing that
upsets you the most, it could be people who don't like illegally loud boats.

Then realize that I feel that same level of frustration , maybe even more.

But this is my house, my home, were I am raising a family and seeking rest and peace. I have owned my land for ten years. If this issue existed when I was looking at the land to buy, I would not have purchased. Yet it didn't, this is a new issue.
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Old 10-03-2004, 01:46 PM   #117
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I like all boats,I don't care what you ride in as long you get out and enjoy the water.Unfortunately I chose a performance boat that has now been one of the targets of the lake.Yes,I can have a ball with a quiet boat,however,not when it's the type of boat that's been targeted for an hour or so of testing.That's not my idea of an afternoon of boating.As I said,it's like boating on eggshells.I also have a performance engine that should be run with the pipes open after a certain rpm.I never dared to run above that rpm in fear that I'd be the next in line for the ticket.Whether it passes or not,it puts a damper on the day.My boat spent too much time at the dock because I wasn't taking any chances.I purchased my boat 8 years ago,before the laws were a problem.Had it been a problem then I wouldn't have bought it.I purchased my home 9 years ago,there were only 10 houses on my road,now there are 100.Had I known this 9 years ago I wouldn't have bought it.Sound familiar.Times change,we need to adjust to the changes.Your making the problem way bigger than it is.By targeting us,perfomance boaters will target you,maybe a few extra rpms as they pass by.You haven't made any friends by doing this.
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Old 10-03-2004, 07:31 PM   #118
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Question No More Noisy Offshores offshore ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by another 1
"...By targeting us,perfomance boaters will target you,maybe a few extra rpms as they pass by.You haven't made any friends by doing this."
Having read elsewhere of the threats and intimidations made against "LRSLA", his restraint and persistence is admirable. The "Marine Mafia", as I referred to them earlier, is alive and well as suggested by the above. It gets worse -- much worse.

Help may be on the horizon for beleagured shoreline residents: California harbormasters are now enforcing a 75dB noise limit measured from the ocean's shoreline. It's called the "Quiet Waters Act", and it looks like there's some noise pollution activity in Naples, FL, and in lakes in New York State regarding the offshores.

Imagine that: Offshores are being targeted for noise pollution offshore!
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Old 10-03-2004, 08:47 PM   #119
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There's absolutely no reason for a boat to be so loud it disturbs other people. It's against the law for that very reason. If you want to enjoy your toy take it out in the ocean. Earth is seventy five percent ocean. I would think you could find a quiet little corner to call your own. But as far as the lake is concerned, I hope the marine guys hold you up three hours, and let you go with a fist full of paper.
If you had the worst summer of boating ever, I guess that means mine was better then I thought it was.
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Old 10-03-2004, 08:55 PM   #120
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Default what goes up....

Since you don't quite get my drift yet lets try a different
direction.

Since noise is considered a form of pollution, i.e.,,noise pollution.
Since there is a legal limit to noise supposedly for a reason, i.e.,,,
because levels above a certain dB cause impacts.

So lets just say that when you operate your boat illegally you are
polluting the lake environment.

Noise regulations were not developed in an arbitrary manner.
The regulations for the most part were developed by the manufacturers associations.

The same guys you bought your boat from. This is one of the problems. People are buying boats from manufactures that are not telling the new owners were their boats are legal and were they are not legal. A boat certified to operate at 92 dB will NOT be legal to be sold, operated or be resold in the State of Maine.

Maine State bill LD-1280 went into effect in September of 2003. This bill increased the fines for violations of the noise regs and forced compliance with the regs with and with out cutouts in-place. LD-1280 also made the operation of a boat that was in violation of the noise regs an illegal act for the first time in state history.

This law change did not happen in a vacuum. State Senators and Representatives sponsored the bill. IFW supported it, the IFW committee voted unanimously to forward it to the State legislature for a vote. The Maine Recreational Boat Manufactures Association spoke in support of the Bill. The legislature voted it into law and the Governor signed the bill, thus it became law in the State of Maine.

So as you see to focus on me as a source of your frustration is not really appropriate or correct. As density increases in a region, as you have eluded to, regulatory activity actually increases.

The increased enforcement on the lakes regionally is directly related to the increase in the number of boats and the increased traffic. So the fact that an area increases in seasonal or year round population density does not correlate to an automatic increase in environmental pollution. Is enforcement agencies or not responsive or effective the impact of pollution will increase as population increases.

But to say that I am blowing the issue out of proportion with out even acknowledging my data acquisition is to forward a non-supportive statement. I have scientific data that shows serious noise violations. I have spent many hours acquiring this data with certified very precise measuring devices. What do you base your assertion, "that I am blowing this out of proportion "'on?

I understand your feelings regarding, "walking on egg shells". I want you to be able to feel comfortable on the lake and enjoy your water craft.

It is kinda like the feeling when you are operating your car above the speed limit and you don't have a radar detector. You always feel one step away from a big ticket and points on your license. We kinda push the limit and operate at a speed that we think is at a level were we won't see the
blue lights in our rear view mirror.

Well the boating regs are no different. If you get caught operating illegally your going to get a fine. I know you understand this relationship. If the issue was speeding on my road I would have called the sheriff. The sheriff would have set up a speed trap and traffic would slow down for a while.

The noise issue isn't any different. Harassing me won't change anything, so you might want to look into some mufflers. just make sure you fully understand the regs. i would be happy to answer any questions you might have regarding the regs.
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Old 10-04-2004, 10:56 AM   #121
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Smile

You bring up many valid points.
There is one I'll take exception to.

Quote: "People are buying boats from manufactures that are not telling the new owners were their boats are legal and were they are not legal"

If find it very hard to believe that an indivudual has that kind of cash to pluck down on boat and hasn't taken that into consideration. When I bought my boat I can't tell you the time I put into reasearching it and it's not half the boat as some of these offshore monsters.
They knew what they were getting into, and if they didn't, well they deserve what they get.
It's all real simple, break the law, get a ticket. Period
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