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Old 04-16-2009, 03:43 PM   #101
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Just received an email response from Lakeport Landing and they will be selling fuel this year that does not contain Ethanol.
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:43 AM   #102
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Just received an email response from Lakeport Landing and they will be selling fuel this year that does not contain Ethanol.

That's wonderful news. Glad I am wrong about Nightrider being hosed.
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:54 AM   #103
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That's wonderful news. Glad I am wrong about Nightrider being hosed.

Now if we can keep the gas to under 3$/gal ....

So I say "it's the economy" followed by gas prices (on land and at the marina). The weather factors in but many people book their vacation and have to come no matter what. We will come no matter what because a rainy day at the lake beats a rainy day at the home. The SL won't have any measurable effect (overall) either way.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:45 AM   #104
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Wink Accurate GPS?

I aggree with NoRegrets on all his points. However I have not found an accurate GPS. I have seen a number of GPS that are off as much as 300 feet. I've been on the lake for 50 years and I see more 'Captain Boneheads' than I want. I thought the boater's safety course will reduce this number.
On the intercoastal, I have very good luck in using the combination of lorance and GPS. Lorance is far more accurate than GPS. Radar and the new AIS is a godsend when visibility is poor or does nor exist.

Thank you NoRegrets. You are speaking from experience.

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Originally Posted by sa meredith
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

IN response to the saftey of night boating.... Yes you can safely navigate at night at speed. We have a very accurate GPS and radar that we use anytime we boat. One night we come to a dead stop when the radar showed a "target" that we cound not see with our eyes. We shined the search light and saw a flock of ducks (not wearing the correct bathing caps). We have a double check process before we bring the boat up to speed. One will keep a visual watch and the other will watch the equipment. With the right state of mind and focus you can definitely navagate safely at speed in the dark. I would not trust this approach during fog or rain. You need to be proficient with the equipment to understand the limitations. I would not trust only one set of eyes.

Personal perspective: Our boat travels well at 28 MPH and hits 45 at WOT. This is going to be our 10 th season on the lake. We have not come in contact with rocks nor come close to an incident. We ahve traveled the lake many nights in all conditions. In spite of the many spectacular stories or accidents described in this great forum we enjoy all the diverse machinery fast or slow that navigate the lake. There is still enough lake to find crouds or seclusion. I don't get wigged out when a "rookie" buzzes closer than 150 feet as long as I see they are in control of their boat. Attitude seems to be the greatest restriction to the enjoyment the area offers. We are not rich nor are we poor. We find the weekends on the Lake to be the best "investment" in mental health that we can control and will continue until some other group of self serving ill-informed polititions take away personal choice and freedom.
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Last edited by BroadHopper; 04-17-2009 at 11:48 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-18-2009, 09:52 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoRegrets View Post
Originally Posted by sa meredith
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe?
Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive.

IN response to the saftey of night boating.... Yes you can safely navigate at night at speed. We have a very accurate GPS and radar that we use anytime we boat. One night we come to a dead stop when the radar showed a "target" that we cound not see with our eyes. We shined the search light and saw a flock of ducks (not wearing the correct bathing caps). We have a double check process before we bring the boat up to speed. One will keep a visual watch and the other will watch the equipment. With the right state of mind and focus you can definitely navagate safely at speed in the dark. I would not trust this approach during fog or rain. You need to be proficient with the equipment to understand the limitations. I would not trust only one set of eyes.

Personal perspective: Our boat travels well at 28 MPH and hits 45 at WOT. This is going to be our 10 th season on the lake. We have not come in contact with rocks nor come close to an incident. We ahve traveled the lake many nights in all conditions. In spite of the many spectacular stories or accidents described in this great forum we enjoy all the diverse machinery fast or slow that navigate the lake. There is still enough lake to find crouds or seclusion. I don't get wigged out when a "rookie" buzzes closer than 150 feet as long as I see they are in control of their boat. Attitude seems to be the greatest restriction to the enjoyment the area offers. We are not rich nor are we poor. We find the weekends on the Lake to be the best "investment" in mental health that we can control and will continue until some other group of self serving ill-informed polititions take away personal choice and freedom.
I'm thrilled to hear your such an accomplished mariner and enjoy the lake as much as I, but, I think you'll find the majority of the boats on the lake do not have radar, we don't all operate large boats.

As an avid fisherman who spends countless hours fishing on the lake, I can assure you, that there is no loss of morons that will buzz you, WOT, within casting distance between boats.

One morning, just outside Wolfeboro Bay, at about 8 AM , we had a caravan of 6-7 cigarette boats pass within 100' of us trolling 200-300 yards off shore.

There was absolutely no reason those boats had to be within 400 yards of us , as we were not even close to the boating lane.

Those operators had absolutely no respect for anyone and I believe did it on purpose , I only wished the MP could of witnessed this spectacle.

While maybe you could care less about what I do, why shouldn't I be able to safely enjoy the lake, as well as everyone else.

While I do not condemn all boaters on the lake, there are a number that shouldn't come back and hopefully they won't , they won't be a loss or missed, they ruin it for all.

Unfortunately, this law is undoubtabley in response to many complaints from boaters and non boaters, in regards to at least a small number of jerks.

I don't believe for one second, that this law will destroy business around the lake, the destuction of the National Economy will be the culprit.
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:22 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by BroadHopper View Post
I aggree with NoRegrets on all his points. However I have not found an accurate GPS. I have seen a number of GPS that are off as much as 300 feet. I've been on the lake for 50 years and I see more 'Captain Boneheads' than I want. I thought the boater's safety course will reduce this number.
On the intercoastal, I have very good luck in using the combination of lorance and GPS. Lorance is far more accurate than GPS. Radar and the new AIS is a godsend when visibility is poor or does nor exist.

Thank you NoRegrets. You are speaking from experience.
Isn't Lowrance a brand of GPS? What is Lorance?
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:37 AM   #107
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Isn't Lowrance a brand of GPS? What is Lorance?
I am assuming he is talking about Loran-C (Long Range Aid to Navigation). This was the predecessor to GPS technology. Growing up on the commercial party boats on the ocean in Hampton this was the technology that was used to plot fishing spots, or direction in general. No mapping like GPS, just coordinates.
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:03 PM   #108
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Was surprised that today had so few boats out. Good weather....sunny Sunday but nary a motorboat to be seen. Probably Saturday's grey weather didn't help but thought there would have been more boats today? Where were all the boats?
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:49 AM   #109
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Default GPS Accuracy and then some........

GPS Accuracy – The new GPS systems should be within 15 feet accurate. Most systems can adjust the display to enhance the accuracy. When I first started to use my system the tracking was off by about 50 feet. This meant that the tracks would be going over ground through the Weirs Channel. I was able to adjust it to be right on. If you have an external antenna or use an internal antenna the position in your boat may be to one side (possibly at the helm). This will give you a reason to adjust your display to offset a few feet so it would look like the antenna is in the center of the vessel. I believe it was around 2003 when the US government implemented GPS WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System). This WAAS system uses fixed ground points and adjusts errors in the satellite positioning. It is really magic or science fiction to think about the general use of satellites. Check out WAAS on Wikkipedia if you really want to be impressed.

Hi swnoel - I am not immune to the bonehead captain moves and I do appreciate the frustration of everyone placed at risk by them. I have to consciously maintain composure at times but then reflect on my rookie mistakes and hope that someday the boneheads will learn like every responsible boater has. If not I appreciate witnessing good MP stops!

I will also agree with FLL with the observation that there were no boats on the lake. We only saw 6 boats yesterday between Paugus bay and Meredith. The sun’s solar effect through the isinglass was fantastic. The air coming of the water was cool. There was virtually no wind so the lake was smooth as glass. It was/is a great way to start the season.
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:19 AM   #110
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I've boated at night since I was probably mid teens, which was a few decades ago I've rarely gone out on rainy or foggy nights, at least I've always tried not to. The night air is exhilarating, and the preferable moonlit nights are about as good as it gets. Even though I knew the lake extremely well, I rarely went into areas at night that I didn't frequent on a regular basis. So I could cruise from the neck to Meredith Bay, over to the Weirs for fireworks, out through Paugus, and down towards the Witches. Those used to be my limited cruise paths at night.

We never went that fast really, occasionally ripping the water up at an unconscionable speed of 40 mph LOL But generally speaking, we'd cruise along slowly to eat a pizza on the way back, turn it up to 20 to 30 mph and enjoy the beautiful night. It's harder to do on many lakes now due to congestion, boats without lights, the occasional people-powered craft that is hardly visible in daylight, and many times because I'm yawning before 10:00 PM.

Lots has changed the last thirty plus years. There are many "boaters" that lack the requisite experience, common sense, and even the attitude that is commensurate for a quality and safe boating experience. In other words, much more similar to highway driving than it used to be. Boaters in general used to be a less similar to the general population than they are nowadays. Not all mavericks for sure, but perhaps a heartier stock, big on the personal responsibility and camaraderie. I hate to paint with such a broad brush, but everytime one of these discussions comes up, it reminds me of watching the movie Dirty Dancing. The horrified looks of terror when those terrible young people were dancing like the devil

But it's a big world out there now, and many newer boaters didn't grow up on the water as I did, and they feel the need to "share" their opinions and views of their latest hobby with themselves, and their state representatives. People that generally make arses out of themselves on land with huge egos and arrogance, will generally do it on the ski slopes, and the water as well. It doesn't take many of these flamboyant, Type AAA personalities to make convenient targets, and representations for the nanny staters. We had one such person that is no longer on the water anymore over here. But in general, the go fasts here are pretty responsible and experienced.

The major problems are with tubers, newbie hot shots in their first boats, the usual. It would be a full time job every weekend to limit enforcement to just these groups. But alas, it's not done. The complainers have their targets, and the majority of unsafe boaters apparently are not in their focus yet. At any rate, I suspect that this economy will have a Thinning of The Herd impact on boating, which might not be a bad thing long term.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:55 AM   #111
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WB, In reading the info on VT's web site, their fuel appears to be an additive supplanted mixture, still starting off with ethanol based gasoline, mayby I'm wrong but that looks to be what they are saying.
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Old 04-20-2009, 11:43 AM   #112
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Nightrider, all I remember is Channel Marine touted it last year as containing no ethanol.

I don't know if you found this link (it's easy to find with Google but it's buried on their website) but here's more info on their Marine Fuels from ValvTect's website, http://www.valvtect.com/marketing04.asp; I didn't see anywhere that they started with ethanol fuel or without but I could have easily missed it. That link will lead you to this link, Click here for more information on ValvTect Marine Fuels.
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Old 04-20-2009, 11:59 AM   #113
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Arrow loran-c

Quote:
Originally Posted by codeman671 View Post
I am assuming he is talking about Loran-C (Long Range Aid to Navigation). This was the predecessor to GPS technology. Growing up on the commercial party boats on the ocean in Hampton this was the technology that was used to plot fishing spots, or direction in general. No mapping like GPS, just coordinates.
You are right Codeman. On the intercaoastal mariners pronounce loran-c like 'low rance'. Sorry for the confusing.

Another problem on Winnipesaukee is that the local police do not practice what I call 'safe harbor'. When the weather is really bad at night and you had to remain at a public dock, you should be able to as a safety measure. I got ticketed one night at the Weirs docks and another night at the Glendale docks because I tied up due to bad weather conditions. I contested it in district court and lost. Personally I'd rather pay the fine than to do something dangerous.
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:02 PM   #114
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BroadHopper...

When the MP/Town Cop is giving you the "You cant dock here speech" I found a very effective way of avoiding any further hassle with this simple phrase...

Politely ask for his badge number & name and then ask....

"Is it YOUR recommendation I drive in this weather?"

They usually just tell you to be gone by morning.... (Well at least that has been my experience)

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Old 04-20-2009, 01:05 PM   #115
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Default Speed Limits on lakes!!!!!!!


I don't want you to take this the wrong way but: Although we also have motorized boats(A Couple)and we like to speed around like everyone else(We at least slowdown for smaller boats, its common courtesy), I also have a canoe and a kayak (Which also have long histories on the lake-Longer history than motor boats come to think about it)and I can tell you that there definitely SHOULD be speed limits on certain areas of the lakes, I don't know how many times we have been out there in one of the smaller boats or canoes and some A-HOLE in a big cabin cruiser leaving a 3-4 foot wake blows by us at top speed many times almost capsizing us because they don't have any respect for the other people on the lake in smaller boats, even when near shore, Talk about road rage!!! you have no idea!!! My young nephew was up with us a few summers back on one of the occasions when this has happened and it scared him so bad he made us take him to shore and hasn't wanted to go out since, so yeah there should be speed limits in certain areas and if I ever meet up with one of these morons at the boat ramp then they may wish the hell they had slowed down instead of laughing about swamping some canoe who has just as much right to be out there on the lake as they do, if you don't believe me then try going out there in a canoe sometime and you may feel differently about the speed limits. Not all boaters are that way but there enough idiots out there to make up for the good people. COMMON SENSE GOES A LONG WAY.....One idiot even told me when I caught up to him and confronted him that he was second generation on the lake so that gave him the right to do whatever he wanted,...(Well my family has been in New England since 1622 but that doesn't give me more rights than anyone else,just the same rights).D.G.-Northeast Electric
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Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
While I'm against the speed limit, I suspect the general economy will have the biggest impact on the local lake economy, and the the speed limit will hardly have any affect. I always felt that the economic arguments against a speed limit were silly.

That said, I have a list of the businesses that support a speed limit, and do avoid spending my money with them.
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:11 PM   #116
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And yes you are right, I dont know what the economy has to do with speed limits, common sense boater safety should dictate the speed limits. & we have no problem with speeding around in boats, we just wish people would slow down a little when approaching smaller watercraft.
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:46 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
BroadHopper...

When the MP/Town Cop is giving you the "You cant dock here speech" I found a very effective way of avoiding any further hassle with this simple phrase...

Politely ask for his badge number & name and then ask....

"Is it YOUR recommendation I drive in this weather?"

They usually just tell you to be gone by morning.... (Well at least that has been my experience)

Woodsy
Woodsy I employed that very tactic one foggy night at the Weirs. I tried to leave and got out barely to Buoy # 1 the fog was so thick that I could barely see the bow of the boat. After a tense 10 minutes we made our way back to the Weirs docks. VERY SCARY. Anyway after we were tied up and secure at the docks a cop came by and began to squawk about me not being able to spend the night on my boat at the docks yada yada..... So I began nicely and said we tried to leave and the fog was so thick etc. etc. He replied, "That's not my problem sir!" So I simply replied, "Well it will be if you make me drive out there and we die because you made us leave." I asked him if he'd give us a ride home, he said no. I said "well then I guess we're staying here right?" He just muttered and walked away. So we slept on the boat at the Weirs that night without incident.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:04 PM   #118
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Default Drop the boat in this weekend

We dropped our boat in this weekend for the season as we have an Island home and keep out boat on a dock in Alton all summer. We tried doing 25 mph and it was nearly impossible as our boat plowed through the water and made a huge wake. Long story short we went form Alton to Tuftonboro-to Center Harbor over the weekend ..we saw 1-2 fishing boats the whole time...wish it was like that all year. We will continue to drive or boat the way we always have regardless of the speed limit..
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:17 PM   #119
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I don't want you to take this the wrong way but: Although we also have motorized boats(A Couple)and we like to speed around like everyone else(We at least slowdown for smaller boats, its common courtesy), I also have a canoe and a kayak (Which also have long histories on the lake-Longer history than motor boats come to think about it)and I can tell you that there definitely SHOULD be speed limits on certain areas of the lakes, I don't know how many times we have been out there in one of the smaller boats or canoes and some A-HOLE in a big cabin cruiser leaving a 3-4 foot wake blows by us at top speed many times almost capsizing us because they don't have any respect for the other people on the lake in smaller boats, even when near shore, Talk about road rage!!! you have no idea!!! My young nephew was up with us a few summers back on one of the occasions when this has happened and it scared him so bad he made us take him to shore and hasn't wanted to go out since, so yeah there should be speed limits in certain areas and if I ever meet up with one of these morons at the boat ramp then they may wish the hell they had slowed down instead of laughing about swamping some canoe who has just as much right to be out there on the lake as they do, if you don't believe me then try going out there in a canoe sometime and you may feel differently about the speed limits. Not all boaters are that way but there enough idiots out there to make up for the good people. COMMON SENSE GOES A LONG WAY.....One idiot even told me when I caught up to him and confronted him that he was second generation on the lake so that gave him the right to do whatever he wanted,...(Well my family has been in New England since 1622 but that doesn't give me more rights than anyone else,just the same rights).D.G.-Northeast Electric
What you described was illegal before speed limits were enacted.

Boats that leave a 3 or 4 foot wake are going much slower than 45 MPH.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:20 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by northeastelectric View Post

I don't want you to take this the wrong way but: Although we also have motorized boats(A Couple)and we like to speed around like everyone else(We at least slowdown for smaller boats, its common courtesy), I also have a canoe and a kayak (Which also have long histories on the lake-Longer history than motor boats come to think about it)and I can tell you that there definitely SHOULD be speed limits on certain areas of the lakes, I don't know how many times we have been out there in one of the smaller boats or canoes and some A-HOLE in a big cabin cruiser leaving a 3-4 foot wake blows by us at top speed many times almost capsizing us because they don't have any respect for the other people on the lake in smaller boats, even when near shore, Talk about road rage!!! you have no idea!!! My young nephew was up with us a few summers back on one of the occasions when this has happened and it scared him so bad he made us take him to shore and hasn't wanted to go out since, so yeah there should be speed limits in certain areas and if I ever meet up with one of these morons at the boat ramp then they may wish the hell they had slowed down instead of laughing about swamping some canoe who has just as much right to be out there on the lake as they do, if you don't believe me then try going out there in a canoe sometime and you may feel differently about the speed limits. Not all boaters are that way but there enough idiots out there to make up for the good people. COMMON SENSE GOES A LONG WAY.....One idiot even told me when I caught up to him and confronted him that he was second generation on the lake so that gave him the right to do whatever he wanted,...(Well my family has been in New England since 1622 but that doesn't give me more rights than anyone else,just the same rights).D.G.-Northeast Electric
What you say is a valid opinion but a bit off topic.. We are really trying to discuss if they will have an impact on the economy and not whether we agree with the merits of the law itself.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:33 PM   #121
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And yes you are right, I dont know what the economy has to do with speed limits, common sense boater safety should dictate the speed limits. & we have no problem with speeding around in boats, we just wish people would slow down a little when approaching smaller watercraft.
I too wish people would use a little common sense. When I'm on plane and I encounter smaller vessels, I make very obvious course adjustments to make it patently obvious that I see the other vessels (I do this wih all vessels when I'm the give way boat), give them a wide berth, and often speed up to minimize my wake. Hopefully the pictures below will help visualize my decision to speed up in these situations.


My boat's wake at 45-50 MPH


My boat's wake at 30-35 MPH


My boat's wake at 15-20 MPH
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:15 PM   #122
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Considering the economy and the SL rules, I will be boating more this year during the day, but less at night.

I'm retired and lucky to be on a fixed (non-government ) pension. Since gas prices will be a lot lower this year than they were last year, I'll most likely boat 20% to 30% more overall.

As far as night time boating, I will take short trips in displacement mode, but I can't get on plane under 25 MPH without a big wake due to transition, even with tabs down, so long distance night time trips are now effectively banded for me.

If gas spikes upward, my boating will spike downward.

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Old 04-20-2009, 03:24 PM   #123
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Hey Dave R. Totally off topic but love the pics. Getting me excited for this coming year!!! Your boat looks like it rides very well.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:28 PM   #124
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Gosh darn it Dave, there ya go again! Trying to make a point with facts, and now even pictures. But aside from your boat, those big cabin cruisers are a horror story when plowing. I usually deliberate for a couple of minutes before deciding how to take the wake, or just get the heck out of there.


I doubt any conclusions can be drawn from this summer. The economy is bad, life is different for many people. The "intent" of the law is well known in private circles, and they are probably spot on. However, there are many GF boats over on Lake George, where they strictly enforce the laws, and know exactly who their targets are. Maybe the point being, the boaters love the lake more than their boat's performance? I have no idea really.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:23 AM   #125
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Hey Dave R. Totally off topic but love the pics. Getting me excited for this coming year!!! Your boat looks like it rides very well.
Thanks! It does ride well, IMO, for a 25 foot boat. I really like the 24 degree deadrise, and the ability to stay on plane comfortably at well under 25 MPH. Nice combination for rough days. There is a downside though, when I need to go somewhere less than 39" deep the deep V design and tail-heavy attititude at displacement speeds puts the props down in the mud and rocks. Fortunately U-joints are only 11 bucks each and easy to swap, I have no qualms about trimming way up at idle speed and changing U-joints every couple of years.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:29 AM   #126
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Gosh darn it Dave, there ya go again! Trying to make a point with facts, and now even pictures. But aside from your boat, those big cabin cruisers are a horror story when plowing. I usually deliberate for a couple of minutes before deciding how to take the wake, or just get the heck out of there.

There's a couple of big (38 to 42 feet would be my guess) Regal cruisers on the lake that kick up absolutely huge and steep wakes at planing speed. They are much worse than the typical Carver or Silverton plowing wake. When I see them coming, I adjust my course and speed drastically, and call out a warning for everyone on board. The Regal boats are both dark colored and easy to spot from a distance. Their wakes are on par with the Sophie C and Doris E, I imagine you remember those...
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:51 PM   #127
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There's a couple of big (38 to 42 feet would be my guess) Regal cruisers on the lake that kick up absolutely huge and steep wakes at planing speed. They are much worse than the typical Carver or Silverton plowing wake. When I see them coming, I adjust my course and speed drastically, and call out a warning for everyone on board. The Regal boats are both dark colored and easy to spot from a distance. Their wakes are on par with the Sophie C and Doris E, I imagine you remember those...
I sure do, even before the hull modifications over the years. I used to love to ski over them as fast as the skipper would go Those were the days, knees that worked.

But a 24 degree vee, Oh to have those back in my arsenal.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:33 AM   #128
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Cool Disclosures, please...

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"...I'm thrilled to hear you're such an accomplished mariner and enjoy the lake as much as I..."
Won't 100% of Winnipesaukee boaters tell you they are "above average" boaters?

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Originally Posted by swnoel View Post
"...I don't believe for one second that this law will destroy business around the lake, the destruction of the National Economy will be the culprit..."
I agree: It is premature to discuss it a week after Ice-Out—and still has a two-year sunset provision within which to study that it had any effect at all!

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"...we don't all operate large boats...why shouldn't I be able to safely enjoy the lake, as well as everyone else...?"
I'd like to know that answer as well.

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"...Hopefully the pictures below will help visualize my decision to speed up in these situations..."


My boat's wake at 45-50 MPH
When I take a seasonal photograph of Lake Winnipesaukee, there are invariably mountains, intense residential development and at least one or more watercraft in the frame.

Is your photo a fair representation of a Lake Winnipesaukee boating environment?

Fess-up...you know the rules here about "other" bodies of water.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:39 AM   #129
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... When I take a seasonal photograph of Lake Winnipesaukee, there are invariably mountains, intense residential development and at least one or more watercraft in the frame.

Is your photo a fair representation of a Lake Winnipesaukee boating environment?

Fess-up...you know the rules here about "other" bodies of water.
Huh???

Are you stating that because you insinuate that the picture might not have been taken on Winnipesaukee that it is not a valid example of what it is claimed to be, that higher speeds generally produce smaller wake?

This thread is so far afield at this point that a picture of someone golfing on the moon would be a legit addition to the argument. We posted pictures of Spock on another thread and I don't think there have been any Vulcans on Lake Winnipesaukee either.

This thread has become tedious. The original purpose to discuss the impact on the economy was a thin shield over discussing the speed limit again, a pointless exercise right now. No one can possibly predict how business will be this summer and even at the end of the year will not be able to tell what if any the speed limit contributed to the final effect. We all had our fun speculating.

This turkey is done.

Don, you suggested that you had your finger on the close button. I vote for you to press it.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:52 AM   #130
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Again I disagree on the close. I think many valid points have been discussed. There have been those who have strayed off course a bit (no pun intended ) but we have done well on keeping them to the discussion of the economy in relation to SL's.

Whether anyone agrees that the economy will be effected or not it is up to them if they want to discuss it. I personally feel it definately will be but it will be very hard to calculate. But I think people have the right to voice their own opinions on the matter.

Personally I feel that there are many people who do not want to see how it actually will effect the economy because it will hurt there own agenda come 2 years from now. Having people aware of the situation due to discussions like this only helps determine the outcome. just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:26 AM   #131
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Lightbulb OK try this ....

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Personally I feel that there are many people who do not want to see how it actually will effect the economy because it will hurt there own agenda come 2 years from now. Having people aware of the situation due to discussions like this only helps determine the outcome. just my 2 cents.
So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:36 AM   #132
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When I take a seasonal photograph of Lake Winnipesaukee, there are invariably mountains, intense residential development and at least one or more watercraft in the frame.

Is your photo a fair representation of a Lake Winnipesaukee boating environment?

Fess-up...you know the rules here about "other" bodies of water.

That one was taken in Maine on a smaller lake. It's the only one I have of my wake at that kind of speed. The other pictures lack other watercraft, intense residential development and mountains as well though, and they were taken on Winnipesuakee. None were taken by me.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:38 AM   #133
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Huh???

Are you stating that because you insinuate that the picture might not have been taken on Winnipesaukee that it is not a valid example of what it is claimed to be, that higher speeds generally produce smaller wake?

This thread is so far afield at this point that a picture of someone golfing on the moon would be a legit addition to the argument. We posted pictures of Spock on another thread and I don't think there have been any Vulcans on Lake Winnipesaukee either.

This thread has become tedious. The original purpose to discuss the impact on the economy was a thin shield over discussing the speed limit again, a pointless exercise right now. No one can possibly predict how business will be this summer and even at the end of the year will not be able to tell what if any the speed limit contributed to the final effect. We all had our fun speculating.

This turkey is done.

Don, you suggested that you had your finger on the close button. I vote for you to press it.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:55 AM   #134
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Thanks SA Meredith.

Is that the fat lady singing?
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:58 AM   #135
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Default Yep...

Loud and clear......
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:03 AM   #136
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So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?
First off let me say GREAT POST.. getting back to the heart of conversation.

Determining the effect will be very difficult, as I have stated before, because the data can not be directed directly at the speed limits. What I mean is how do we determine or estimate the lost revenue from a go fast boater that does not come to the lakes region. I don't think any data was collected before the SL so it is hard to shape a comparrison.

What I do know and can directly attribute to the SL is those people who have posted here and on other sites how they will not be coming to the lake this year due to the SL. I have spoken with at least a dozen friends who had enjoyed the lake, are not hurting $ wise, and now will be spending their hard earned dollars elsewhere.

What I have also noticed is that many people say this will be offset by the "many paddlers" who had felt unsafe and now will visit the lake. However, I have not seen or heard from this "large group" of individuals who have avoided the lake all these years and now will be coming.

But to draw a specific conclusion it will be very hard to differentiate between the down economy and the SLs.

One thing for certain is that although it may not be a huge loss in comparrison to the entire economy it will just be another straw that may break the camels back. In my own opinion adding insult to injury.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:08 AM   #137
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Sorry to call you out specifically, but sa meredith and jeffk, it seems you guys are the only ones not enjoying the thread. May I suggest just not participating?

Totally your right to however.. Happy to have you. I just think it is everyones right to voice their thoughts whether you agree with them or not.

I think that since the SL's just took place, discussing if people have changed their plans due to them is a direct effect on the economy. By discussing these plans is the only way we will know if it is effecting the lakes region.

I just don't know what people are trying to hide. Flame away
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:23 AM   #138
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Smile Back to the economic factor....

There is no doubt in my mind that the factors contributing to a decline in boating last year, not only on Winni, but boating in general in New Hampshire were the economy, fuel prices and the weather.

This year gas prices have dropped significantly, and we don't know what the weather will bring. But anyone that doesn't think the economy is the greatest detriment to boating in general and tourism specifically is just ignoring the obvious.

The speed limit issue? While we play insider baseball here another fact is it just simply doesn't apply to most folks, and I bet a lot of the transient boating population gives it little thought, as with most boating regulations.

Will there be some folks that vote with their feet this year? Perhaps. But I am looking at the other sign of the coin. I currently have a 20 footer and boat with several friends over at Ossipee in the same length range. None of us have ventured over to Winni for several years as we are only up on weekends and have not wanted to deal with the foolishness.

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.

In closing I also understand JeffK and others concerns about this thread. I am very close but not yet ready to cast my vote for Don for closure because it is obvious to me that there are several posters here with very thinly veiled objectives. Maybe the dark side of me is waiting to say "I told you so".....

You can't fool and old fool.....
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:25 AM   #139
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Skip...

I agree with you that the economy is the biggest elephant in the room! However HB-847 does nothing to effect the big cruisers throwing big wakes. While there might be less hi-speed boat traffic. There will be the huge wakes thrown by the big cruisers...

Bang me a PM when you & the guys are heading over this way and we can meet up!

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So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?
Most of the folks who own the boats targeted by HB-847 can afford to spend the $$$... The question is will they spend that $$$ here or someplace else.

There is no easily quantifiable measure to judge the effect the speed limit will have on the economy, especially when you consider how bad the economy currently is. However, we can an idea if there was an effect at all, by looking at the amount of high test gasoline pumped on the lake, and a quick check with the charities conducting the poker runs. (these tend to attract the Hi-Performance boats that the speed limit targets) To be sure there will be an economic effect... but i am pretty sure its going to be a ripple noticed only by those businesses directly affected and barely noticed (if at all) by the general public.

The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


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Old 04-22-2009, 12:22 PM   #140
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But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.
Well said. We have heard from several posters about how much they spend in relation to their performance boats, i.e. gasoline, shoreside restaurants, etc.,and how kayakers/others would never spend as much. In reality, we all choose to spend our money in different ways. I may spend 5% of what a GFBL spends on gas and shoreside restaurants, yet I have more money left that I spend on, say, restaurants not on the town docks, charities in the lake's region (and of course these charities spend this money), maintenance on my very modest 60 y/o cabin, etc. We all choose to spend our money in different ways, and I know people on and around the lake who have very modest boats but who spend a great deal never the less.
What I have found disagreeable with some of the recent posts is the " I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home" mentality.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:23 PM   #141
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The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy
WOW Skip and Woodsy way to get to the heart of the subject.. I just wanted to chime in and say I am greatly impressed to the clarity of your posts. Top notch!

Woodsy I really like how you broke down the quantifiable costs of the limit itself. My only question is where would we get that information? I wonder if they will even post the data or if it is even calculated at all.

Although opposed to the SL or many different aspects I will say I think they would have worked better as money generator for the state if it was not linked to your MVR.

Just think about how many more people are going to fight their tickets and how much it will cost the state. Not to mention even before they were inacted how much difficulty proving accuracy.

Anyway, just wanted to say Thank you both for your posts. They show why this thread has value.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:28 PM   #142
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But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.
Hey Skip.. Great post.. By the way I love heading your directly to go to long sands.. Always a great time.

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

Anyway just making polite conversation.. I agree with you on most aspects.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:59 PM   #143
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Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.
It sure is going to leave more room at Braun Bay
Don't know about you but when my kids were young I could spend alot more in a weekend than two of those GFB's
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:04 PM   #144
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Hey Skip.. Great post.. By the way I love heading your directly to go to long sands.. Always a great time.

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

Anyway just making polite conversation.. I agree with you on most aspects.
The economy will bottom in different areas at different times. I suspect a largely recreational and tourist area will be hurt this summer much more than some areas. We won't know until the July and August reports come in.

One of the biggest problems on Winni for smaller boats (mine is 22') on weekends has always been cruiser wakes. We used to have them parade by out on the neck all day long, with the boats lurching and yawing at the dock, begging for mercy. Trying to make it to the Weirs on a Saturday was amusing for us when younger, maybe not so funny anymore. That was in the 70's and 80's, so none of this is even remotely new.

If they're all still there, weekends are still far from an excellent experience on the lake.

I've found that on the highway, there was a dramatic change in speeds the minute gas prices headed down below $2 a gallon. Since I drive interstate daily, it's quite noticeable. While the economy has definitely gone downhill, the dramatic decrease in fuel costs should equalize the overall boating experience. If anything, hotels and restaurant would be hit harder than boating. The danger is that the loss of even 15% or less of clientele could shut down a lake business, then everyone suffers.

I remember Winni when it was pretty darn boring after 6 PM, as far as nightspots and waterfront activity went. Outside of the Weirs and a relatively tame Naswa, not much going on. It's pretty exciting to have places to go on the water, and makes for an experience that to this day I find amazing. Nothing like it. That holds for fishermen, watersports, whatever your chosen activity.

It takes a mix of people, hopefully responsible people, to make an area intriguing and pleasant. As much as I hate headway speed, there are obvious areas of congestion that should be heavily patrolled. This goes for unsafe at any speed boaters as well as cruisers with dangerous wakes. If the rules are applied evenly, and with common sense and courtesy, it makes for a better place. I hate irresponsible and dangerous boaters as much or more than anyone. It would be nice if they could be dealt with.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:16 PM   #145
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Will there be some folks that vote with their feet this year? Perhaps. But I am looking at the other sign of the coin. I currently have a 20 footer and boat with several friends over at Ossipee in the same length range. None of us have ventured over to Winni for several years as we are only up on weekends and have not wanted to deal with the foolishness.

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.
My father used to let us kids take the boat on weekends, since he couldn't stand the crowds out on the lake. I'm being totally honest here, as the owner of a 22 footer, that I'd take fifty go fasts if I could get rid of the monster wakes. Regulate the mad tubers driving in people's paths, the wild and crazy PWC riders, those that speed through NWZ's, Winni would be better than ever.

Videos would say more than I possibly could.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:20 PM   #146
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Default one more issue...

Where are the 20' average joe boaters going to launch thier boats? More than a few public ramps, but most are resident only and have little trailer parking. I just dont see great numbers of average joe boaters replacing anyone....

Go fast or Go slow... In this economy, I think any loss of business is bad thing.

Sunset

You make one good point... everybody does spend thier money the way they see fit! However, the business model for waterfront establishments isnt too good if your replacement plan for the lack of big $$$ spenders is to replace them with people who spend thier money elsewhere.

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Old 04-22-2009, 02:46 PM   #147
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Where are the 20' average joe boaters going to launch thier boats? More than a few public ramps, but most are resident only and have little trailer parking. I just dont see great numbers of average joe boaters replacing anyone....

Go fast or Go slow... In this economy, I think any loss of business is bad thing.

Sunset

You make one good point... everybody does spend thier money the way they see fit! However, the business model for waterfront establishments isnt too good if your replacement plan for the lack of big $$$ spenders is to replace them with people who spend thier money elsewhere.

Woodsy
My point is that business will move from one lake's region venue to another. Some of the "I'm taking my bat and ball and going home crowd" insists that there will be a major economic hit in the lake's region due to speed limits, when in fact it may be a shifting of tourist dollars from some businesses to the benefit of others in the same tourist area. And not that I'm sayng these waterfront restaurants will do all that badly anyway...in fact I plan on using my boat more this summer and suspect the out to dinner by boat experience will be far more enjoyable. I suspect many others may feel the same way.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:54 PM   #148
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Sunset.... For the business owners sake I hope you are right.

Many GFB owners trailer their boats and rent a house / condo for a week or two at a time. Frankly the lake becomes small very quickly for a GFB. However due to the other activities and places to visit around the lake it still is a great place to visit.

My friends that normally would either rent a place or come and leave their boats at my dock are deciding not to come at all. Even though the lake gets small quickly for GFB we still like to be able to use them. I quick ride from Moultonboro to Alton for lunch or Wolfboro for dinner is always a good time. But they are saying that because of the hassell they are going to go to Maine.

So yes you are right there will be a shift, economy wise, but to an entirely different state.
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:15 PM   #149
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My father used to let us kids take the boat on weekends, since he couldn't stand the crowds out on the lake. I'm being totally honest here, as the owner of a 22 footer, that I'd take fifty go fasts if I could get rid of the monster wakes. Regulate the mad tubers driving in people's paths, the wild and crazy PWC riders, those that speed through NWZ's, Winni would be better than ever.

Videos would say more than I possibly could.
Other than a family in a bowrider, kayaks and canoes, who does that leave?
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:17 PM   #150
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Sunset.... For the business owners sake I hope you are right.

Many GFB owners trailer their boats and rent a house / condo for a week or two at a time. Frankly the lake becomes small very quickly for a GFB. However due to the other activities and places to visit around the lake it still is a great place to visit.

My friends that normally would either rent a place or come and leave their boats at my dock are deciding not to come at all. Even though the lake gets small quickly for GFB we still like to be able to use them. I quick ride from Moultonboro to Alton for lunch or Wolfboro for dinner is always a good time. But they are saying that because of the hassell they are going to go to Maine.

So yes you are right there will be a shift, economy wise, but to an entirely different state.
But again, the point is that those houses/condos might well fill with people who are looking for a different lake experience now that we have speed limits. I know people who feel this way about Winnipesaukee. As far as Maine, there is now more and more momentum for similar limits on their lakes. Many people on these Maine lakes(as well as other NH lakes) do not want to feel that they will become the dumping grounds for these performance boats.
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Old 04-22-2009, 04:23 PM   #151
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Other than a family in a bowrider, kayaks and canoes, who does that leave?
I don't think I'd leave out the bowriders necessarily. What I mean is Enforce regulations, weed out and stop the negligent and dangerous people on the water. I've heard some pretty ridiculous stuff on this topic about how they feel the lake will suddenly become safe and pleasant. Everyone needs to pay attention to all of the laws, in addition to using some common sense and decency. Every group feels that it's someone else that's the issue.

After all is said and done, the lake will still be infested with problems that existed well before the perceived go fast problems. There's jerks in every category of watersport. My three biggest problems last year were with family bowriders towing tubes. At any rate, it will be interesting to witness.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:31 PM   #152
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Skip...

I
The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy
I too am very curious as to how this will shake out. I'm not sure I agree with the statement that the speed limit success or failure is easily quantified or that I really understand your point. I think from my experience on the lake and the much poo pooed MP data from last year that there aren't too many boats going over 45 mph, except for a few instances. So I don't think too many speeding tickets will be written. MP will probably be pilloried for this. I do expect to see MP boats changing course to try and clock me on my jet ski, we'll see.

Anyway, I predict a very interesting boating season.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:56 PM   #153
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We have a 25 foot Cobalt that wide open goes real fast. I don't think of it as a go fast boat, but it is. But even though it goes like a bat out of you know where, our most enjoyable times are just cruising around the lake, looking at other boats, cottages or the mountains. I do that at a speed well below wide open throttle. It just feels better. My choice of speed is apparently a lot easier then many others though. My bow angle is almost independent of speed - as is my wake. I don't like crawling around the lake - takes to long to see things. I can't imagine just opening the throttle thow and going around the lake at full speed. I would miss a lot. I guess when I was younger I got a thrill out of wanting to go as fast as possible from a to b, but now I just want to enjoy the lake.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:15 PM   #154
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Exclamation Trojan horse....

I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

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Old 04-23-2009, 06:12 AM   #155
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I think I see what you mean Skip, but possibly overreacting, or maybe I'm just naive in hoping people grow up. I see what you see too, and I think it hurts the balanced and objective arguments more on one side than another. Not too surprising given the time of year, and the new year's issues. There are less than civil discussions going on, but this one has remained pretty open in my opinion.

For those that do engage in the type of behavior that Skip is addressing. That attitude is part of the reason many laws are being written across the country. I would specifically point to the Maine case as being a poster ad for stricter limits. If people don't think you're mature enough to even understand their concerns, then they'll find a way to curb your activities. Even though I don't agree with the outcome, I fully understand why it happened.

I also understand that failing to address the concerns of the other side will not help your cause. Attacking people and other such in your face actions pretty much rule out any form of negotiations. Without constructive discussion, it gives people the impression that some people need adult supervisions.

I hope you've viewed most of my blathering as constructive here Skip. With exceptions, all sides have been aired out. One thing for sure. The lake will always be an attraction, recessions or not.
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:14 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Skip View Post
I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

Thanks...
Well said Skip.
I made the exact same point in post #50 of this thread:

But they have long since turned into the same regurgitated garbage over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again! All this thread is, is a disguise to start it up again. Anyone can see this


It has been obvious from the start. Surprised Don has let it contiue.
The sarcasm disguised as politeness in many posts here is almost comical
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:59 AM   #157
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I mostly agree with your post #50 SA. This summer will be a tough one for boaters, not to mention the continued drought in the boat business. Every group likes to think they're the most important, which I sense is the feeling some have regarding their relative importance on the lake's economy.

I think the most obvious economic impact this season will be those that couldn't recover from unwise spending from home refis and interest rate adjustments. This will have some impact on properties for sale, boats not launched, and probably will lessen the traffic on the lake in general. The rest will have to make choices if money's tight. Do we go out in the boat every weekend, or just sit back and hang out? Dining out or eating in? Basics of life.

I saw decreased activity last summer due to the gas prices. Two groups "seemed" to be impacted the most, from my own totally unscientific observations. Less flashy boats bombing around. I surmise these are the folks that bought expensive machines they really could not afford to run anyway, especially at $5 a gallon. House as ATM machine and all that. Recreational boaters were much more sedate, mostly at anchor rather than bussing around. But last summer was dreadful weather, so taking that into account, who really knows?

The Lakes Region has survived many economic downturns, like to one in the 80's where it seemed every other waterfront property was for sale. It will continue to survive as it always has. Just another reminder that huge debt leverage and living beyond your means usually ends badly.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:23 AM   #158
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I think the melodramatic posts could use a rest here. I did my own detective work and came across the same posts you did skip. Seriously though we are all adults here and we can choose not to read a forum if we think it may offend us, god forbid. So far I haven't seen anything that has even approached close to the old debate. Seriously though this is a forum for ideas and debate. As soon as someone offers up an opinion that you don't like we need to shut it down???

Skip I really do believe that you and SA are very knowledgeable excellent posters but I do believe you are overreacting a tad. Almost 5,000 hits on this thread to me means that people are interested in the topic. So Don please don't be so quick to close. There is a valid argument somewhere in all of this superfluous junk. I think we can all tolerate the occasional poster lamenting the law and not staying on topic. We're adults here folks try and moderate yourselves so Don doesn't.
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:58 AM   #159
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:59 PM   #160
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Now that the season is half over, and the debate has been opened up, is there any evidence and data people can attest to due to the limits either way? I realize as pointed out be an earlier poster back in the beginning of the season the lakes economy is going to be effected most by weather and overall fiscal economy more so then speed limits.

Well we have seen for sure how much the weather has directly effected boat turn out which can also be attributed to the overall economy. But has anyone spoken to those we were most concerned about? Gas station owners, on the lake resturants etc? to get a feel for if they have seen a slowdown in GFB's and if it has effected them?

I would be interested to hear any thought, facts and do I dare say "opinions" on the matter.

Although a previous poster alluded to there being an underlying attempt to push an agenda here. I think many people would like to continue this dialog about the lakes economy including myself.
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:20 AM   #161
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"...I would be interested to hear any thought, facts and do I dare say "opinions" on the matter..."
This is not an opinion:

My realtor's agent (Maxfield Realty) sent out a letter this past April requesting that cottage rentals for this season be reduced up to 40%.

My three "rentable" neighbors (directly to the west) have been filled all season—the first season this has happened!

("Ebbtide" boats—with rental numbers—have been featured).
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