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Old 06-01-2008, 04:15 PM   #1
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Post Drunk (speeding) boater crahes, Lake George

Often we hear that the implementation of speed limits on Lake George has been a success.

Unless and until you consider an alleged CRIME like this.

Apparently the widely publicized speed limits on this particular lake had no effect on this woman's alleged decision to break a number of boating regulations.

Last edited by Skip; 06-04-2008 at 10:54 AM. Reason: insert presumption of innocence....thanks BD!
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Old 06-01-2008, 07:32 PM   #2
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I am shocked!

Here I had been told all along that a Speed Limit on a lake would fix all these problems..... Have I been mislead. Whatever shall we do?
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:36 PM   #3
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Well suprize , suprize , suprize

And it wasn't even a go fast boat
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:42 AM   #4
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Now that Lake George is still unsafe, perhaps they should lower the speed limit to 20 MPH

That would make it much safer!

Then, if there was another problem like this, the next step would be 10 MPH.

Before we know it, we will only be allowed to go backwards!

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Old 06-02-2008, 12:49 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Often we hear that the implementation of speed limits on Lake George has been a success.
Are you saying the Lake George speed limits have not been a success?

Are you saying the accident rate on Lake George is worse since speed limits?

Did anyone ever claim a speed limit on Winnipesaukee would prevent all accidents?

Or is this report just sour grapes sensationalism of an event unrelated to speed limits?
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:43 AM   #6
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Default gentleman, start your engines

Here we go again, another thread which will degenerate to name calling and cutting/pasting prior comments. Why don't all of you just agree to disagree, and deal with this topic through the statehouse. Obviously, bickering on this thread, doesn't solve anything. But it is typical New England style to scream and holler and when it comes time for a call to action, there are nothing but the sounds of crickets. This was a thread set up to intitiate arguements.

I am against speed limits, (due to individual rights reasons, thus the reason I moved to the great state of NH) but obviously the major cause in this accident and most are due to a combination of alchohol/drugs and lack of judgement. Speed limit laws will not remove these idiots from the waterways or the roadways, unfortunatly. The speed limit debate does not apply here. It does have a valid place, just not here (for those of you curious that place is Concord).

Good luck everyone for the next 300 entries to this thread, hope it makes you all achieve that sense of accomplishment your looking for while officially changing nothing at all.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moyer View Post
Here we go again, another thread which will degenerate to name calling and cutting/pasting prior comments. Why don't all of you just agree to disagree, and deal with this topic through the statehouse.
Good luck everyone for the next 300 entries to this thread, hope it makes you all achieve that sense of accomplishment your looking for while officially changing nothing at all.
Here is a good old fashion AMEN
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:45 AM   #8
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I agree with Mr Moyer on the name-calling, and CSQ has several errors in his last paragraph.

I LIKE that the driver was charged with violating the 5 mph limit near shore. Why hasn't this been a part of Winni's enforcement practice when boats run onto islands?
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:45 AM   #9
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Exclamation Reading more into Skip's post? (sorry Mr. Moyer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
Are you saying the Lake George speed limits have not been a success?
Are you saying the accident rate on Lake George is worse since speed limits?
Did anyone ever claim a speed limit on Winnipesaukee would prevent all accidents?

Or is this report just sour grapes sensationalism of an event unrelated to speed limits?
“Often we hear that the implementation of speed limits on Lake George has been a success.“ Yep Skip, we’ve heard that often. Skip continues “Unless and until you consider a CRIME like this.” Thanks for something to consider Skip.

Skip said speed limits didn't seem to have any effect on the drivers choice to BUI. We should all be able to agree to that FACT, even BI. The drunk was charged with violating the speed limit. This story somehow involves speed limits.

The speeding boat on Lake George (the one with the 40 mph speed limit) flies through the air and lodges between trees (in the above news report). The driver was charged with: boating while intoxicated, reckless operation of a vessel and exceeding the 5 mph speed limit. All laws and regulations already in place on Winnie (well 6 mph instead of 5) without HB847 and NOT a violation of their 40 mph speed limit. That's what it is, period.

I can't speak for Skip but I believe Skip's post stands on it's own. Skip is not saying anything more than he already said - leaving the reader to reflect on the information. The possibilities are not limited to BI's queries or 4 choices. Skip said speed limits didn't seem to have any effect on the drivers choice to Boat Under the Influence (BUI). We should all be able to agree to that FACT, even BI.
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Old 06-02-2008, 10:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que View Post
“Often we hear that the implementation of speed limits on Lake George has been a success.“ Yep Skip, we’ve heard that often. Skip continues “Unless and until you consider a CRIME like this.” Thanks for something to consider Skip.

Skip said speed limits didn't seem to have any effect on the drivers choice to BUI. We should all be able to agree to that FACT, even BI. The drunk was charged with violating the speed limit. This story somehow involves speed limits.

The speeding boat on Lake George (the one with the 40 mph speed limit) flies through the air and lodges between trees (in the above news report). The driver was charged with: boating while intoxicated, reckless operation of a vessel and exceeding the 5 mph speed limit. All laws and regulations already in place on Winnie (well 6 mph instead of 5) without HB847 and NOT a violation of their 40 mph speed limit. That's what it is, period.

I can't speak for Skip but I believe Skip's post stands on it's own. Skip is not saying anything more than he already said - leaving the reader to reflect on the information. The possibilities are not limited to BI's queries or 4 choices. Skip said speed limits didn't seem to have any effect on the drivers choice to Boat Under the Influence (BUI). We should all be able to agree to that FACT, even BI.
And I say AMEN to this post.Wake up people.
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Old 06-02-2008, 11:35 AM   #11
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Thumbs up Dittos to SIKSUKR and Skipper of Sea Que

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
And I say AMEN to this post.Wake up people.
I agree with the Skipper and with SIKSUKR. Let's not use another informative post from Skip as the beginning of the same old debate.

Mr. Moyer's post made me decide not to comment on the news story or Bear Islander.

Ditto to Skipper of the Sea Que and SIKSUKR. Thank you to Skip for the information.

Let us all agree to boat safely and say AMEN.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelnut View Post
I am shocked!

Here I had been told all along that a Speed Limit on a lake would fix all these problems..... Have I been mislead. Whatever shall we do?
And Cal and Resident 2B

Perhaps you are not aware but this was only an "Informative Post" by Skip. He was not suggesting that the speed limits on George or Winni will not makes those lakes safer. He was not comparing Lake George with Winni. He never implied that speed limits would "fix" George or Winni or prevent all accidents. His grapes are sweet.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Island Lover View Post
And Cal and Resident 2B

His grapes are sweet.
So you've eerrhh....nevermind.
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Lover View Post
And Cal and Resident 2B

Perhaps you are not aware but this was only an "Informative Post" by Skip. He was not suggesting that the speed limits on George or Winni will not makes those lakes safer. He was not comparing Lake George with Winni. He never implied that speed limits would "fix" George or Winni or prevent all accidents. His grapes are sweet.
Please re-read my post. I was not comparing the two lakes either. I have no idea how any rational person could conclude that from my post. But then...

R2B
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident 2B View Post
Please re-read my post. I was not comparing the two lakes either. I have no idea how any rational person could conclude that from my post. But then...

R2B
R2B Don't bother, if they can't figure out the sarcasm and humor in my post you'll never be able to explain your post.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:42 PM   #16
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The only thing a speed limit did in this case was give the authorities one additional charge to nail this gal with (exceeding the speed limit) that otherwise would not be available. Of course it's silly to suggest that any law will stop irresponsible behavior, to think otherwise is wishful thinking.

Is it worth having a speed limit for this reason? The 50K question for sure, but it's certainly never going to be a deterrent except for those that actually obey the law. I've pointed out in the past "reckless operation" is totally subjective and therefore arguable in court. Breaking a speed limit however is much more cut and dry and more likely to stick. It's difficult for the authorities to reconstruct the operator's frame of mind and determine if reckless operation was indeed a factor. They can however at least estimate the speed of the vessel and make a much more compelling argument based on fact and not pure speculation.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by MAXUM
The only thing a speed limit did in this case was give the authorities one additional charge to nail this gal with (exceeding the speed limit) that otherwise would not be available. Of course it's silly to suggest that any law will stop irresponsible behavior, to think otherwise is wishful thinking.
As I read the article I understand it to mean that the "speed limit" that was violated has nothing to do with the Lake George 40mph limit, she violated a posted no wake zone, 5MPH maxum (pun intended)
So the crimes committed would also be crimes on Winnipesaukee, speed limit or no.

My immediate take on this is that the Winnipesaukee speed limit law would do nothing in this instance either. When people drink and boat this happens regardless of a 45mph speed limit, 40mph speed limit or in this case 5mph speed limit!
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
The only thing a speed limit did in this case was give the authorities one additional charge to nail this gal with (exceeding the speed limit) that otherwise would not be available.
Just to clarify and to echo "Skipper's" post. Under current NH law that charge would be available. She could be given a ticket for exceeding headway speed which would essentially be a speeding ticket.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
The only thing a speed limit did in this case was give the authorities one additional charge to nail this gal with (exceeding the speed limit) that otherwise would not be available. Of course it's silly to suggest that any law will stop irresponsible behavior, to think otherwise is wishful thinking.

Is it worth having a speed limit for this reason? The 50K question for sure, but it's certainly never going to be a deterrent except for those that actually obey the law.
Is there value in having the additional statute to use? How many times were current laws about distance from shore and prudent speed used? The speed limit is yet another option to add to a list of charges for a Captain Bonehead but impacts otherwise law abiding boaters who are traveling at a safe and prudent speed.
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelnut View Post
R2B Don't bother, if they can't figure out the sarcasm and humor in my post you'll never be able to explain your post.
Is it like the sarcasm and humor in Island Lovers post? Because I can figure that out easy!

I guess you missed the smilie.



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If they are truly traveling at a safe and prudent speed I don't think they need worry about the speed limit.
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Old 06-03-2008, 06:20 AM   #21
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Lightbulb Missed Bear Islander sarcasm or does he agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
Lakegeezer If they are truly traveling at a safe and prudent speed I don't think they need worry about the speed limit.
Is Bear Islander repeating what the anti-speed limit bill side has often claimed or is he being sarcastic? If boaters on either lake operate at a prudent and safe speed then there is no need for additional quantified speed limits. That sounds very reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moyer
This was a thread set up to intitiate arguements.
Skip is not a troll and I don't think he ever initiated a thread designed to start arguments. I do agree with you we do not need another thread to argue about proposed new speed limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs
I LIKE that the driver was charged with violating the 5 mph limit near shore. Why hasn't this been a part of Winni's enforcement practice when boats run onto islands?
Violation of the headway or 6 mph law on Winnipesaukee is already a tool available to the authorities.

Boat safely and prudently
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:07 AM   #22
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Default I only "troll" when fishing...usually!

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...Skip is not a troll and I don't think he ever initiated a thread designed to start arguments...
Thanks SB (and my buddy SOSQ!)...Mr. Moyer is entitled to his opinion and I can understand and appreciate his concern.

I offered the event with little attached editorial opinion as it appeared to me to be relevant to the overall discussion of this sub-thread. As those of us that peruse this topic are aware, a number of individuals have consistently held that the speed limits imposed on Lake George are proof that such accidents are prevented, and some of those same folks have also claimed that the collision on Sebago could have been prevented with NH style proposed limits. And a very few have repeatedly attempted to tie the Littlefield crime into the speed limit debate.

The often presented argument?

That the mere presence of additional regulation will cause an inebriated individual to have second thoughts about getting behind the helm.

The news article was presented to allow the reader to once again reconsider the arguments from both sides of the equation in order to change or reinforce their own personal opinions on the matter.

Nothing more....nothing less.

Now let's all get our boats ready for what is shaping up to be a fantastic upcoming weekend!
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:56 AM   #23
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Default Getting to the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
Lakegeezer

If they are truly traveling at a safe and prudent speed I don't think they need worry about the speed limit.
You are getting at the center of the discussion here. A boat can be traveling at 60 mph and still be safe and prudent, yet next year, and for two years after that, it will be illlegal to do so - therefore, not prudent. If you love safe speed and yet respect the law, you have to worry.

The discussion point is; can 60 MPH be safe and prudent? It sure seemed that way this morning.
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:56 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy Beach View Post
Is Bear Islander repeating what the anti-speed limit bill side has often claimed or is he being sarcastic? If boaters on either lake operate at a prudent and safe speed then there is no need for additional quantified speed limits. That sounds very reasonable.


Skip is not a troll and I don't think he ever initiated a thread designed to start arguments. I do agree with you we do not need another thread to argue about proposed new speed limits.

Violation of the headway or 6 mph law on Winnipesaukee is already a tool available to the authorities.

Boat safely and prudently
No sarcasm intended. There is no safe and prudent speed standard on the lake yet (no matter what others may say). HB847 will provide one at last. It also provides actual numbers, 45/25 that set a standard of behavior to the boating community.

Setting that standard is what will make a difference. How many speed traps the MP set up, or how many tickets handed out, will make little difference.

I think the number of tickets handed out each year to boaters that were operating at "safe and prudent speeds" that are over the limit, will be counted on one hand. Perhaps one finger.
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
No sarcasm intended. There is no safe and prudent speed standard on the lake yet (no matter what others may say).
Since the arguement has been expressed in many ways, what about what the NASBLA safety course says?

Quote:
Chapter 3: Operating Your Boat—Safely Navigation Rules—Traffic Laws of the Waterways:

Maintain a safe speed.
Safe speed is the speed that ensures you will have ample time to avoid a collision and can stop within an appropriate distance. Safe speed will vary depending on conditions such as wind, water conditions, navigational hazards, visibility, surrounding vessel traffic density, and the maneuverability of your boat or PWC. Always reduce speed and navigate with extreme caution at night and when visibility is restricted.
Sounds pretty 'standard' to me?????
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Old 06-03-2008, 03:54 PM   #26
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I should have said "official standard". The NASBLA definition is not law.
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
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I should have said "official standard". The NASBLA definition is not law.
So, by law, (or "official standard", as you refer to it) I am required to hold a valid certification that signifies completion of an approved boating course.

In said course, I was required to learn and adhere to the following "Traffic Laws of the Waterways" and it's contents.....

I fail to see any ambiguity with that logic - if A = B then C?
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:09 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Often we hear that the implementation of speed limits on Lake George has been a success.

Unless and until you consider a CRIME like this.

Apparently the widely publicized speed limits on this particular lake had no effect on this woman's decision to break a number of boating regulations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
Often we hear that the implementation of speed limits on Lake George has been a success.

Unless and until you consider a CRIME like this.

Apparently the widely publicized speed limits on this particular lake had no effect on this woman's decision to break a number of boating regulations.
To call it a CRIME is to deny the woman her presumption of innocence before the law.

Most officers of the court would use the word "alleged".
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:48 AM   #29
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Smile Guilty as charged!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs View Post
To call it a CRIME is to deny the woman her presumption of innocence before the law.

Most officers of the court would use the word "alleged".
You are absolutely correct, and I will immediately edit the post for the correct verbiage.

My apologies and thanks for pointing that out.....

Skip
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
I should have said "official standard". The NASBLA definition is not law.

It's a good standard, perhaps a great one.

I'll bet nobody fought to get it adopted in NH as Law. Even mandating a plaque on every boat sold nationwide would be great. They probably won't enforce the laws anyway, but it will be nice to feel better about the growing list of laws.
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:29 AM   #31
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If she were to hold a certificate valid for Winni, would the Marine Patrol revoke her boater's certificate if she pleads guilty or is found guilty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy Beach View Post
Violation of the headway or 6 mph law on Winnipesaukee is already a tool available to the authorities.

Boat safely and prudently
I would add, "Boat Defensively" since the thread title refers to a "Drunk (speeding) boater". Also, there has been no past mention of this "tool" in Foster's news reporting.
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Old 06-05-2008, 11:12 AM   #32
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a BWI conviction carries the same penalties as DWI on your driver's license in addition to a one year loss of boating privileges, so in a sense her certificate would be "revoked"
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:12 PM   #33
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Default I'm not too sure about that!

Quote:
Originally posted by lifeonthefarm
a BWI conviction carries the same penalties as DWI on your driver's license in addition to a one year loss of boating privileges, so in a sense her certificate would be "revoked"
A certificate is not a license. A license can be revoked I don't believe a certificate, safe boating or otherwise, can be revoked. A certificate is for LIFE 'on the farm'
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:05 PM   #34
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Post Revocation of NH Boating Certificate

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Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
A certificate is not a license. A license can be revoked I don't believe a certificate, safe boating or otherwise, can be revoked. A certificate is for LIFE 'on the farm'
Just like a motor vehicle license, the NH issued boating certificate can be revoked by the Department of Safety or the appropriate Court after a just cause hearing complying with RSA 541-A is conducted.

The authority to revoke is given in RSA 270-D:13 (II).

There are specific boat operating suspension mandates for individuals convicted of Driving While Intoxicated or Boating While Intoxicated (alcohol or drugs) if the offense occurs in this State, applicable to this State. Other States may or may not honor these suspensions within their respective State dependent upon their specific reciprocity laws.

Remember, while thier are specific interstate reporting systems in place with reciprocity agreements between many States regarding motor vehicle offenses, no such system exists for boating safety certificates. In the case of the out-of-state offense addressed here, if the woman alleged to have committed the offense on Lake George is convicted in that State there is no mechanism for New York to notify or enforce reciprocity with NH. NH authorities would need to somehow become aware of the conviction and then attempt to revoke the certificate via the hearing process described above.

In short, while a NASBLA issued certificate is now a requirement in NH to operate particular types of watercraft, there are substantial loopholes remaining in the present regulations that ensure folks that should not be at the helm of a boat will not be easily detected or removed from operation.
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:26 PM   #35
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Default It's possible to revoke a certificate, but...

It appears it is certainly not likely to ever happen.
Quote:
RSA 270-D:13 II. Once issued, the certificate of safe boater education shall be valid for the lifetime of the person and may not be revoked by the department of safety or a court without cause and a hearing in accordance with RSA 541-A.
Unlike a license, a certificate is just that, a certificate that you accomplished something. A license is different. The NH Boating regulations require a certificate stating that you have successfully completed a NASBLA approved boating course/test.

We can debate what a boating license is if you'd like. In NH it appears to me to be an additional written test and a small fee. Much different from a USCG license.

I did look at RSA 541-A and I didn't see anything regarding the revokation of an individual certificate. I did see a way to revoke agency certficates or so I think. Granted I did not read the entire RSA but if you would be so kind as to show me how NH can revoked an individual certificate of accomplishment?
No, I'm not being a Smart Ass I just didn't see the wording.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/Rules/revstatannot.html

Last edited by Airwaves; 06-05-2008 at 10:48 PM. Reason: Identifying the RSA and adding another RSA link
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:12 AM   #36
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Post Your certificate is your license...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
...Unlike a license, a certificate is just that, a certificate that you accomplished something. A license is different. The NH Boating regulations require a certificate stating that you have successfully completed a NASBLA approved boating course/test...I did look at RSA 541-A and I didn't see anything regarding the revokation of an individual certificate. I did see a way to revoke agency certficates or so I think. Granted I did not read the entire RSA but if you would be so kind as to show me how NH can revoked an individual certificate of accomplishment?...
In New Hampshire, like a number of other States, in order to operate a motorized watercraft with HP in excess of 25 HP you must posess the NASBLA approved Safety Certificate. If you do not posess such a certificate you cannot operate such watercraft. By virtue of the fact that posession of such certificate is mandated by the State, the certificate is in effect your "license and privilege" to operate as mandated by the State. The word "license" does not have to appear to make a document or certificate meet the legal definition of license.

As previously mentioned in the above mentioned RSA, the State has the authority to revoke the issued lifetime certificate by following adjudication defined in RSA 541-A. If you go to RSA 541-A you will find the guidelines defining adjudicatory procedures for the necesary hearing defined in RSA 541-A:30 and several following paragraphs.

Synopsis? While the document issued to the boater in New Hampshire is indeeed a certificate, the mandatory requirement of posession of that certificate to operate certain watercraft make that certificate by law a license to operate, and therefore an item that is issued and hence can be revoked or suspended by the issuing authority.

,
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:44 AM   #37
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If there's one thing I have learned while being a part of this forum it's never ever doubt Skips knowledge of the law.
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:51 AM   #38
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If there's one thing I have learned while being a part of this forum it's never ever doubt Skips knowledge of the law.
....but I do have an unfair advantage!
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Old 06-06-2008, 02:29 PM   #39
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Default Let's say you're right

Although I still have my doubts. Since the certificate is required to boat on NH waters, but that certificate can be issued by any agency with NASBLA anywhere in the country (for all practile purposes) what authority does NH have to 'revoke' a certificate issued outside of the State of New Hampshire?

In my case my certifcate was issued by the US Coast Guard Auxiliary. The US Power Squadron certificates are also recognized by NH but not issued by a state. etc etc.
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:01 PM   #40
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I think you're right, AW.

Only Connecticut has been actively revoking boating certificates. An offender has two days to return his certificate to the state after revocation.

That means that there are 37+ states where a boater convicted of BWI can show the NH Marine Patrol a "valid" boating certificate. In reality, it's a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, since a driver's license is not required for identity on NH waters.

This woman can be boating and crashing on Winni even after a BWI conviction. This sets back boater-education even more than online testing already has.
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:05 PM   #41
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Default Rights, Privileges and Licenses

I agree with Skip, but would like to add some information that may have been overlooked. The Boating Certificate is in effect your license, in that is shows you have passed a test of knowledge. However, having that license in and of itself does not grant you the right or privilege to operate a boat. That is separate. When you are convicted of BWI, your privilege to operate a boat is revoked for one year under RSA 270:48-a II(b). The certificate says you acquired knowlege through a course and test: that can't be changed. However, whether you have that card or not, under RSA 270:48-a II(b), you can't use it to operate a boat for one year. After that year is up, you still have the certificate and can then use it again.
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Old 06-06-2008, 04:24 PM   #42
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Post Clearing up some lingering doubts....

Let me try this one last time....

If you go back and re-read post #34, the question I answered is can New Hampshire authorities revoke or suspend a New Hampshire issued boating certificare.

The law is clear, after a just cause hearing held in accordance with RSA 541-A they can indeed revoke your New Hampshire certificate.

However, we are all apparently in agreement that New Hampshire authorities cannot revoke a permit issued by another State, just as they cannot revoke a license issued by another State.

Additionally, if you are a New Hampshire resident and are convicted of DWI in this State, or any other State that has reciprocity with New Hampshire, regardless of the length of suspension of your New Hampshire driver's license you lose your privilege to operate a boat in New Hampshire for one year.

Also, while you are not required to have or display a driver's license when stopped by the NHMP, they will still (via radio or cellular phone) use your name and date of birth to run a license check through Dispatch to verify your identity and check your license status.

Why?

Lets say you are a New Hampshire resident under suspension for DWI and you get stopped and show the NHMP officer a North Carolina NASBLA certificate. The officer will still run a license check and discover that you are under suspension in New Hampshire and you will subsequently be arrested. You would be amazed at the speed and accuracy of the SPOTS system.

Hopefully this clarifies any loose ends.....

And as usual, if you would like to be bored by additional RSAs, Administrative Rules or applicable New Hampshire case law, please feel free to contact me off-line.

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Old 06-08-2008, 01:13 PM   #43
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Default "This card certifies that __has successfully completed the US Coast Guard Aux..."

My drivers license however states "Massachusetts Drivers License"

My entire point is that a certificate of accomplishment is not a license. A license has a finite lifespan. Certainly NH can revoke a person's right to operate a boat on NH waters but they can not revoke a certificate of accomplishment.

NH and the Coast Guard, and some other jurisdictions do offer boating licenses, but they are generally for folks involved in the commercial aspect of boating not the average recreational boater. Those licenses are for a finite period of time, with specific restrictions and must be reapplied for upon expiring, unlike a certificate of accomplishment.

I just looked at my US Coast Guard Auxiliary certificate, it "certifies" I successfully completed the course, it does not contain my DOB or any other information beyond my name.

Certainly NH can revoke boating privileges, and certainly NH can revoke a license issued by the state, but a certifcate of accomplishment is not a license.

My entire point is this. The use of the word license when talking about a certificate of accomplishment is not accurate.
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Old 06-08-2008, 02:05 PM   #44
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Post Let's try this one last time....

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...My entire point is that a certificate of accomplishment is not a license. A license has a finite lifespan. Certainly NH can revoke a person's right to operate a boat on NH waters but they can not revoke a certificate of accomplishment...
Firmly but politey, you are in error.

I can inform the reader from direct professional experience that the State can revoke a NH Boater Certificate, no matter how much you want to quibble over the definition of "license", as allowed clearly by State statute.

Let me quote the State statute (RSA) directly to eliminate any lingering confusion:


270-D:13 Issuance of Safe Boater Education Certificate. –

... II. Once issued, the certificate of safe boater education shall be valid for the lifetime of the person and may not be revoked by the department of safety or a court without cause and a hearing in accordance with RSA 541-A.
...

I have already pointed out to you, in a previous post, the applicable portions of RSA 541-A that govern the hearing process that dictates the procedures necessary for a Court or the DOS to revoke your NH issued boating certificate.

Let me make it even simpler with a little phrase I was introduced to several decades ago at the NH Police Academy:

...What the State giveth (by RSA) then the State can taketh away (by RSA)...


And finally, the Administrative process for revocation:


Saf-C 6107.03 Revocation of Certificate.

(a) Upon showing of just cause, pursuant to RSA 270-D:13, II, a boating certificate shall be revoked after a hearing.

(b) The revocation period shall not exceed one year. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary, if after the hearing the hearing examiner finds that the holder of the safe boater education certificate shall benefit from reattending a safe boater education course, the hearing examiner shall set forth his or her findings in his or her order and the holder of the safe boater education certificate shall not have his or her certificate reinstated until he or she has complied with the hearing examiner's order.

(c) Just cause, for the purposes of (a) above, shall include, but not be limited to:

(1) Conviction of a boating while intoxicated; or

(2) Conviction of any act that indicates a reckless disregard for the safety of the public on the state's waters.

(d) For the purposes of this section, the scope of the hearing shall be limited to:

(1) A review of the court abstract;

(2) Whether the individual has been boating to endanger the public; and

(3) Whether the individual is the named person on the court abstract or complaint.




Anyway, this issue is not in dispute as the authority to revoke with just cause is clearly annotated in State law.

Hope this explains it a little better for you, but as always I encourage you to call 603-293-2037 and have the Duty Supervisor explain it to you directly.

Safe Boating,

Skip

Last edited by Skip; 06-08-2008 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 06-08-2008, 07:17 PM   #45
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Any convicted BWI can take an on-line exam from a different state, shuffle their identity names/initials, "err" on a number or two, and magically re-appear on Winni.

Nobody certifies the information on the boating certificate.

Like in the purchase of alcohol, nobody should accept the certificate on face value and neither should the MPs use it as identification.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:49 PM   #46
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Exclamation Misdemeanor Offense (RSA 270:12-b)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs View Post
Any convicted BWI can take an on-line exam from a different state, shuffle their identity names/initials, "err" on a number or two, and magically re-appear on Winni.

Nobody certifies the information on the boating certificate.

Like in the purchase of alcohol, nobody should accept the certificate on face value and neither should the MPs use it as identification.

You are absolutely correct, the NHMP should not use the "revocable" NH boating certificate from this State, or any certificate from any other State as identification. And that is why they will hold you, as authorized under RSA 270:12-b until you provide a positive means of identification that can be verified through SPOTS back at dispatch. Specifically:

270:12-b Disobeying an Officer. –
I. No person, while operating or otherwise in charge of a vessel, raft, or float of any kind, type, or character or an amphibian or pontoon aircraft under step speed shall:
(a) Knowingly refuse, when requested by a peace officer or agent of the director, to give his name, address, and date of birth, and the name and address of the owner of the vessel, raft, float or amphibian or pontoon aircraft of any kind, type, or character;
(b) Knowingly refuse, on demand of a peace officer or agent of the director, to sign his name in the presence of such officer or agent;
(c) Knowingly refuse, on demand of a peace officer or agent of the director, to produce some means of positive identification such as a driver's license, passport, or other document, or to verify his identity by some other means so that the identity of the operator or person otherwise in charge of a vessel can be determined with reasonable certainty by such peace officer or agent of the director;
(d) Knowingly neglect to stop when signaled to stop by any peace officer or agent of the director, who is in uniform or who displays his badge conspicuously on the outside of his outer coat or garment, or who signals such person to stop by means of any authorized audible or visual emergency warning signals; or otherwise willfully attempt to elude pursuit by a peace officer or agent of the director by increasing speed, extinguishing lights while still in motion, or abandoning a vessel while being pursued;
(e) Knowingly refuse, when requested by a peace officer or agent of the director, to:
(1) direct said amphibian or pontoon aircraft, vessel, raft, or float to shore or to any dock, wharf, or mooring designated by said officer or agent;
(2) follow any vessel operated or controlled by any peace officer or agent of the director to any point on shore, or any wharf or mooring designated by said officer or agent; or
(3) allow said officer or agent to direct or tow said boat, raft, or float to any point on shore or to any dock, wharf, or mooring.
II. Any person who fails to comply with the requirements of this section or provides a false name, address, or date of birth shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.


The scenario you surmise in your opening paragraph will result in the offender being charged with a misdemeanor. In addition, operating after revocation for drugs or alcohol will also result in additional misdemeanor charges. Believe me, an arrest under the conditions you suggest makes a NHMP officer's day, and NH judges historically throw the book at offenses as you describe as deterrent for future offenses. Many inmates at NH County Jails have been caught doing just as you described, albeit on the motor vehicle side.

For those of you that may be curious, NHMP HQ (Dispatch) is fully integrated with the NH State Police and FBI SPOTS systems, giving NHMP officers full access to all 50 States and a number of foreign jurisdiction data bases. Also, a number of vessels plying Winni & the coast are having the Project 54 systems installed onboard, which gives the officer in the field full access to the same databases without even going through dispatch. Smaller vessels can contact supervisor based P54 platforms via radio or cell phone along with dispatch 24/7. And the beauty of the system? The data transfer is instantaneous, due to substantial nationwide upgrades installed post 9/11.

I can just about guarantee that if you are stupid enough to attempt what was suggested in the previous post, you will spend at least a portion of your penalty at one of our finer countywide run inns & resorts.

I'll make sure to beep the horn as I pass you roadside while you're mowing or bagging trash!
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Old 06-10-2008, 01:47 PM   #47
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Nobody's advocating fake ID. It exists, and the boating certificate may be one of the cheapest and easiest fake IDs to get. Fake IDs are a fact of life in college towns.

This boater, stupid enough to boat drunk and hit Happy Family Island, could lose her driving license. OR produce a fake ID. She can still carry passport identification in NH and produce an out of state boating certificate while boating on Winni. Flashing of the boating certificate at arm's length was sufficient for one PWC MP last season, who stopped a boat towing six kids on a tube. He stayed less than a minute before heading off in another direction.
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:04 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal View Post
Well suprize , suprize , suprize

And it wasn't even a go fast boat
That's not what they're saying at Lake George.

Quote:
Looks like a cobalt? Those boats really fly!
Additional Lake George crash commentary from the Web.

Quote:
Sunday night about 11:30pm, Happy Family Island. These Islands are about 400 yards inside the 5 mile an hour bouy. He had to be traveling 35 + to get that far up the Island.

I could see someone running aground in the narrows even sober, It get pitch black up there at night with no home around to light the shore.

But in the area of this grounding they should have seen that island a mile away.

We were sitting on our boathouse deck at that night and we could hear it coming.

Wow, how do you miss that? Sounds like the driver was so drunk that they saw two of the islands and tried to split them. I guess the speed limit at night won't be lifted anytime soon.


Here's a different link, one that has comments.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...8206368294.txt


Among the comments at that site are revealing.

Quote:
And the boating season has only just begun.
There are drunks tooling all over that lake
yet the State Police have decided to cancel their only boat patrol.
Our boating season has only just begun, but Winni is not alone regarding drunks and insufficient patrol.

A response time of 45 minutes in Winni's latest case, tells me that somebody rolled out of bed for that 2am call.

On the other hand, when the State Police are cancelling their only boat, somebody goes on a bender on a lake with a night speed limit of 25mph.

To Sandy Beach, this revelation.

You can only boat "prudently".

You cannot boat "safely" should you ever, even once, anchor your boat or shut off the engine while out on the lake.

I never say, "Have a safe trip".

I tell them "Take care".
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Old 07-02-2008, 12:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs View Post
That's not what they're saying at Lake George.



Additional Lake George crash commentary from the Web.





Here's a different link, one that has comments.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...8206368294.txt


Among the comments at that site are revealing.



Our boating season has only just begun, but Winni is not alone regarding drunks and insufficient patrol.

A response time of 45 minutes in Winni's latest case, tells me that somebody rolled out of bed for that 2am call.

On the other hand, when the State Police are cancelling their only boat, somebody goes on a bender on a lake with a night speed limit of 25mph.

To Sandy Beach, this revelation.

You can only boat "prudently".

You cannot boat "safely" should you ever, even once, anchor your boat or shut off the engine while out on the lake.

I never say, "Have a safe trip".

I tell them "Take care".
2 BD, What are you talking about? Your rambling, cobbled together posts are difficult to follow and read.

A 29 Cobalt may be able to go fast, but it is certainly not a GFBL boat.

There is currently no speed limit on the lake at night and your idle speculation (which may or may not be validated) that someone was on a bender is just that - speculation.

A 45 minute response time at night and in fog (regardless of what your observations were) is not slow nor is it an indication that someone rolled out of bed.

I have both shut my boat off and anchored on Winnipesaukee and felt safe (as safe as one can be in life). Would I do so everywhere on the lake? Absolutely not. My kids play ball in the street in front of my house, not on I-93 (to use an analogy).

You have been casting aspersions towards NHMP and others. I know one thing- they will be there if you or I need them, as fast as they can "prudently" get there. If I choose to on the lake at night I do not expect a NHMP boat to be within 5 minutes of me at all times. I am prepared for emergencies.

What is your agenda? I am hesitant to call anyone that posts on forums a troll, but your posts have made me reconsider.

Have a good day.
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:33 PM   #50
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Default "Model" lake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Islander View Post
Are you saying the Lake George speed limits have not been a success?

Are you saying the accident rate on Lake George is worse since speed limits?

Did anyone ever claim a speed limit on Winnipesaukee would prevent all accidents?

Or is this report just sour grapes sensationalism of an event unrelated to speed limits?
Winfabs says this is a 'model' lake. Where everyone is 'happy'.

This and the decapitation last year is a cause for concern. That is why I don't buy having a speed limit. It does nothing.
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:47 PM   #51
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1) She was charged with BUI
2) She was cited for driving over the 5 MPH speed limit where she crashed
3) AIS

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A more recent accident there: Rental Boat

http://lake-george-news.newslib.com/story/5719-3172549/
6/22/08
"Authorities are investigating a boating accident on Basin Bay in Lake George that sent four people to the hospital Saturday afternoon.

The accident occurred around 2:50 p.m. when Naimoi Motihlall, 20, of the Bronx, operating a 15-foot Boston Whaler, apparently did not see buoys near Rush Island and struck rocks, officials said. The impact propelled a passenger into the water while the others were thrown from their seats, said authorities.

Motihlall, her brother Sham Motihlall, 25, Rehane Khemai, 20, and 2-year-old Sham Khemai were all transported to Glens Falls Hospital for treatment. Another passenger, Fernando A. Morillo, 19, was not injured.

Members of the Warren County Sheriff's Department's Marine Patrol, Lake George Park Commission and Bolton Emergency Squad responded to the scene."
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Old 07-03-2008, 07:30 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaBene View Post
2 BD, What are you talking about? Your rambling, cobbled together posts are difficult to follow and read.

A 29 Cobalt may be able to go fast, but it is certainly not a GFBL boat.

There is currently no speed limit on the lake at night and your idle speculation (which may or may not be validated) that someone was on a bender is just that - speculation.

A 45 minute response time at night and in fog (regardless of what your observations were) is not slow nor is it an indication that someone rolled out of bed.

I have both shut my boat off and anchored on Winnipesaukee and felt safe (as safe as one can be in life). Would I do so everywhere on the lake? Absolutely not. My kids play ball in the street in front of my house, not on I-93 (to use an analogy).

You have been casting aspersions towards NHMP and others. I know one thing- they will be there if you or I need them, as fast as they can "prudently" get there. If I choose to on the lake at night I do not expect a NHMP boat to be within 5 minutes of me at all times. I am prepared for emergencies.

What is your agenda? I am hesitant to call anyone that posts on forums a troll, but your posts have made me reconsider.

Have a good day.
Sorry BD about some of that

See how your cobbled together post confuse me BD!!

I confused the LG parts of your post with the Diamond incident. This lady at LG was an irresponsible drunk dangerous skipper who does not belong in a bathtub with a remote controlled boat.

I stand by anything Winni related.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:53 AM   #53
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It is confusing Vita, but your comments were still on target, regardless of whether they were intentional or not

BD has made up his mind that if alcohol was involved in the Winni accident, it's only because of whom the driver was, and the fact that it was a Formula. Oh, and they were speeding.

For the LG accident, he tried to zero in on the fact that the boat was a speeding GFBL Cobalt, because some observers heard the boat, it was loud. Maybe it is, but even some pretty lame boats have thru hulls and are loud.

He didn't want to mention the LG speed limit issue, since LG has a speed limit, night and day. The driver there was not only charged with going over the 5 mph speed limit, but also BUI. So it does get to be pretty confusing, especially when he throws out old new articles, and cuts and pastes limited statements to try and distort the event. But comments like this does not deter him. BD's rule of thumb is this

1) All GFBL boats are too fast
2) All GFBL boaters are Pardy Hardy people
3) Speed lmits will eliminate drunken boaters and accidents
4) If he makes a misstatement, he will avoid responding for at least a week or more, then he will go on a diatribe that eventually supports our arguments, not his assertions.

It galls him to the enth degree that we all support safe boating, support increased enforcement, support getting BUI boaters off the waterways, and virtually all of us support driving safely and at speeds appropriate for the conditions. If he were to agree with us, it would throw off his ability to defend his agenda. So occasionally, he has to mislead, misrepresent, and occasionally, mistate's someone's posts. Note that there was no cute little response to my posts, which I copied and pasted for everyone to see. I have nothing to hide, whereas he has no shame.

Sorry all, just some filler while we await further information.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadHopper View Post
This and the decapitation last year is a cause for concern.
The only "decapitation" I can find leads to this 36 Spectre blowover.

Quote:
You need to take Tres Martin's class on the tunnel tab issue. Remember the founder of Bonefish grill, Chris Parker blew over a big power 36 Spectre in Tampa Bay and decapitated himself and nearly killed the two girls with him.
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