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Old 04-10-2019, 09:38 AM   #1
LIforrelaxin
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Default SB162 - Exempting Commercial Vessels from No Rafting regulations

http://gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_Sta...t=html&sy=2019

The following bill has passed the senate, and is in commitee in the house.
It seems to be aimed specifically to help the Dive.....

However it is very loosely written in my opinion, which could lead to abuse.
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:43 AM   #2
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Suppose a commercial vessel is exempt from the rafting regulations. If a private vessel ties up to the exempt commercial vessel, is the private vessel still in violation of rafting rules? I guess weíll find out this summer.
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Old 04-10-2019, 01:47 PM   #3
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Suppose a commercial vessel is exempt from the rafting regulations. If a private vessel ties up to the exempt commercial vessel, is the private vessel still in violation of rafting rules? I guess weíll find out this summer.
Great question. Part of the loosely written regulation. Let's see if it passes
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Old 04-10-2019, 02:37 PM   #4
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Suppose a commercial vessel is exempt from the rafting regulations. If a private vessel ties up to the exempt commercial vessel, is the private vessel still in violation of rafting rules? I guess weíll find out this summer.
This is indeed the problem, not enough substance to the exemption... With your thought in Mind, what is to stop a construction company from bring a barge with spud poles to a sand bar and letting their friends tie-up to it...

Overall the rafting regulations are over zealous, and meant to try and keep crowds down... This gives the opportunity to corwds to become a problem again... So I am surprised there isn't more uproar about it...

Personally I don't care eitherway.... but honestly this like so many pieces of NH legislation is horrible.... and has big loop holes...
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:15 PM   #5
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All too typical. One business opens via a loophole or oversight, then the legislature crafts a law just for them (Thank$), of course the law is not well thought out, then other businesses enter and now depend on the law, then we hear the law can't be changed because businesses depend on it

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Old 04-10-2019, 05:18 PM   #6
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From the State of New Hampshire: Commercial Vessel:All commercial boats must be commercially registered and inspected by the State of New Hampshire in compliance with RSA 270-E: 22. Any boat used as a common carrier of passengers or property; operating on a regular schedule. Any vessel propelled by electric or mechanical power carrying passengers for hire.

There are many ways that this could be a problem. Operating on a regular schedule? What if there is no schedule?

Carrying passengers for hire? OK, so You get your boat inspected, that should be easy. You get a NH Commercial Boat Operator's License, and you register your boat to your LLC. Charge your friends $5 for a ride!

Poof: You can raft!
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Old 04-10-2019, 06:08 PM   #7
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Carrying passengers for hire? OK, so You get your boat inspected, that should be easy. You get a NH Commercial Boat Operator's License, and you register your boat to your LLC. Charge your friends $5 for a ride!

Poof: You can raft!

Not so fast; the proposed law only allows commercial vessels using spuds. Anchoring doesnít qualify.
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:46 PM   #8
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I an ready with my "spud" $599 for a Power Pole.

Is there a definition of a spud in the NH regulations? I bet there isn't!
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Old 04-10-2019, 09:57 PM   #9
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Default Good questions

I tried to listen to the audio of the Senate hearing, but no go. Maybe it works for you.? Apparently the House does not record hearings. You can still call Committee members to discuss concerns before they schedule a committee vote or amendments. It looks like amendments are needed to clarify the questions listed above.
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Old 04-10-2019, 10:07 PM   #10
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The "Dive" is ugly and has no place on this beautiful lake. We do not need a floating bar or anything like this vessel. Again special interest legislation appears to be happening. Contact your legislators and express disbelief. Where is the Marine Patrol on this one....not concerned ????? Time for them to weigh in.
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Old 04-10-2019, 10:26 PM   #11
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Tummyman:Who on the Resources Commute did you call? Give us a name and number so the calls will be focused. If you didn't call, fess up. While it is in Committee, I don';t think it matters to call "your" rep.
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Old 04-10-2019, 11:20 PM   #12
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You all need to give The Dive a break here ..... there's a place for everything, and everything has its' place ...... and I do believe The Dive has truly found its' best place ..... at the Weirs Beach docks ..... sandwiched tightly between the Mount Washington 230' cruise ship, and The Pier, by renting out a great dock location from the one year old, Flightcraft on-the-water marina.

That location could go a long way to help make The Dive a successful business, and it will probably not go cruis'n out and about too much, because it is so way under-engined with those two 300-hp E-tec Evinrudes. It doesn't go too good up against a 15-mph wind. I watched it floundering about in Center Harbor bay. What it really needs is one or two diesels, which will never happen. It takes a long, long time to get it to a new location, so's it will probably just stay very close to home port, Weirs Beach ..... which is where the money is at ..... and where there's no upset and angry neighbors .... and where The Dive feels welcomed, there .... in Weirs' Beach.
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
You all need to give The Dive a break here ..... there's a place for everything, and everything has its' place ...... and I do believe The Dive has truly found its' best place ..... at the Weirs Beach docks ..... sandwiched tightly between the Mount Washington 230' cruise ship, and The Pier, by renting out a great dock location from the one year old, Flightcraft on-the-water marina.

That location could go a long way to help make The Dive a successful business, and it will probably not go cruis'n out and about too much, because it is so way under-engined with those two 300-hp E-tec Evinrudes. It doesn't go too good up against a 15-mph wind. I watched it floundering about in Center Harbor bay. What it really needs is one or two diesels, which will never happen. It takes a long, long time to get it to a new location, so's it will probably just stay very close to home port, Weirs Beach ..... which is where the money is at ..... and where there's no upset and angry neighbors .... and where The Dive feels welcomed, there .... in Weirs' Beach.
That's fine and all, but then why the need to change the NR regulations?

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Old 04-11-2019, 07:07 AM   #14
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Arrow Agreed...

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Originally Posted by tummyman View Post
The "Dive" is ugly and has no place on this beautiful lake. We do not need a floating bar or anything like this vessel. Again special interest legislation appears to be happening. Contact your legislators and express disbelief. Where is the Marine Patrol on this one....not concerned ????? Time for them to weigh in.
What? You don't see an expanding market for buying ice cream, live lobsters, fresh produce and Lakes Region souvenirs? (Shopping or snacking by boat without the anguish of finding a docking space).
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:21 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
You all need to give The Dive a break here ..... there's a place for everything, and everything has its' place ...... and I do believe The Dive has truly found its' best place ..... at the Weirs Beach docks ..... sandwiched tightly between the Mount Washington 230' cruise ship, and The Pier, by renting out a great dock location from the one year old, Flightcraft on-the-water marina.

That location could go a long way to help make The Dive a successful business, and it will probably not go cruis'n out and about too much, because it is so way under-engined with those two 300-hp E-tec Evinrudes. It doesn't go too good up against a 15-mph wind. I watched it floundering about in Center Harbor bay. What it really needs is one or two diesels, which will never happen. It takes a long, long time to get it to a new location, so's it will probably just stay very close to home port, Weirs Beach ..... which is where the money is at ..... and where there's no upset and angry neighbors .... and where The Dive feels welcomed, there .... in Weirs' Beach.
FLL and I agree on something... Which as someone else brought up, begs the question why has this legislation not been dropped... My guess is the Dive owners have a vision... My guess is if they can get the first boat profitable, they will move onto the Dive #2.. learn from their mistakes, and make a more seaworthy platform.. This is just speculation of course...
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tummyman View Post
The "Dive" is ugly and has no place on this beautiful lake. We do not need a floating bar or anything like this vessel. Again special interest legislation appears to be happening. Contact your legislators and express disbelief. Where is the Marine Patrol on this one....not concerned ????? Time for them to weigh in.
I think the dive is ugly as well. But I damn well agree with their right to open up shop and try to be successful. I see enough idiots on the lake that could keep Marine Patrol busy not a floating snack bar.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:17 AM   #17
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I think the dive is ugly as well. But I damn well agree with their right to open up shop and try to be successful. I see enough idiots on the lake that could keep Marine Patrol busy not a floating snack bar.
Very well said. It does have a place (although I do think their location needs to change every so often and not just anchor everyday in West Alton, not fair to the neighbors)on the lake and they have a right to petition to protect their investment.
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:06 PM   #18
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The Dive has every right to anchor & setup shop wherever they like! Same as you & I!

If you get mad because the Dive shows up and anchors hours before you get to your favorite spot... get up earlier, or go someplace else!

As far them being exempt from the no rafting... If I were them, I would just take some pics (with time stamp/date) when they roll into the sandbar. So there is NO dispute as to who was anchored first when the MP show up to write a ticket.

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Old 04-11-2019, 02:58 PM   #19
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As far them being exempt from the no rafting... If I were them, I would just take some pics (with time stamp/date) when they roll into the sandbar. So there is NO dispute as to who was anchored first when the MP show up to write a ticket.

Part of The Diveís operation includes allowing customers to tie up (raft) at their take-out window when picking up orders.
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:14 PM   #20
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The Dive has every right to anchor & setup shop wherever they like! Same as you & I!

If you get mad because the Dive shows up and anchors hours before you get to your favorite spot... get up earlier, or go someplace else!

As far them being exempt from the no rafting... If I were them, I would just take some pics (with time stamp/date) when they roll into the sandbar. So there is NO dispute as to who was anchored first when the MP show up to write a ticket.

Woodsy
Not sure if you were referencing my post, but I was referring to neighbors on land not on the water in coves and sand bars. You are correct, first come first serve
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Old 04-11-2019, 04:02 PM   #21
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Joey...

I was referencing your post.... in this case the rights of "neighbors' on land stop at the high water mark (unless you are somehow blocking access to their dock/mooring, then their littoral rights apply).

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Old 04-11-2019, 04:07 PM   #22
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Default SB162 - Exempting Commercial Vessels from No Rafting regulations

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Joey...



I was referencing your post.... in this case the rights of "neighbors' on land stop at the high water mark (unless you are somehow blocking access to their dock/mooring, then their littoral rights apply).



Woodsy


I donít disagree with you their right do end there. I just think the dive should be fair and not stay in one location all the time because he can get a little noisy at times. I had been in that area many times over this past summer while the Dive was out and it creates quite a acrowd just hoping theyíll be courteous to their neighbors and spread the wealth


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Old 04-11-2019, 04:26 PM   #23
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Not so fast; the proposed law only allows commercial vessels using spuds. Anchoring doesnít qualify.
So if I use my boat for fishing charters or even touring for that matter, I put a french fry on a fishing line and cast into the lake I am using a spud. I am now exempt Sorry for the post
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:31 PM   #24
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Dive applying for permit to use Wolfeboro dock. Selectmen asking questions.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:34 PM   #25
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Default Dive

Curious to know how they are going to reach Wolfeboro given their slow travel. That's a long ride for the Dive from Weirs to Wolfeboro.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:50 PM   #26
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Curious to know how they are going to reach Wolfeboro given their slow travel. That's a long ride for the Dive from Weirs to Wolfeboro.


They tend to leave Alton extremely early in the morning to head to their daily destination with little or no other boat traffic and the staff follows via other means car boat etc.


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Old 04-16-2019, 03:06 PM   #27
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Yes, they did try it a couple times but by their own admission it was too slow and that is why they did not leave Smalls Cove when others were begging them to go elsewhere such as Braun Bay. I wonder what has changed.

Weddings/functions are typically in the afternoon, early evening when boat traffic is high plus if you get strong head wind and strong chop on top of the fact that it is already slow in perfect conditions, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:21 PM   #28
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might be doing it for future endeavors for all public ports to get it out of the way now
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:02 AM   #29
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If you read the article, they indicated that they already had several dates that are booked.
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:55 PM   #30
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As a New Hampshire resident, lake landowner and boater, I attended the public hearing on 4/10/19 in Concord and I am concerned that this bill SB 162, does not account for the protection of the recreational boaters. This bill will exempt spud anchored commercial vessels from adhering to the same rafting restrictions as recreational boaters. If the business requesting this change (The Dive) anchors near a recreational vessel that is already anchored in one of the 5 areas on Lake Winnipesaukee where this restriction applies, only the recreational boater is at fault and would be required to move or be fined.

It is my opinion as a New Hampshire resident, lake landowner and a recreational boater, applying a commercial exemption is unfair to the rights and controls that are in place today to protect both land owners and recreational boaters.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions or if you need further information to support a educated vote on SB 162.

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Here is a letter sent to the legislature by a friend of mine.... it is an interesting read.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:37 PM   #31
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Here is a letter sent to the legislature by a friend of mine.... it is an interesting read.
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It is my opinion as a New Hampshire resident, lake landowner and a recreational boater, applying a commercial exemption is unfair to the rights and controls that are in place today to protect both land owners and recreational boaters.
Adding "landowners" to this debate is a mistake IMO. It just cloudy's the waters so to speak.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:37 PM   #32
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A full committee work session is scheduled for 10:00 am, April 30.
At 11:00 am, they have scheduled an executive session. They could vote on SB162 or other pending bills, or perhaps, none if they don't have agreement.
Without reading that section of the law, I think they could come under special event permits instead of requiring SB162.

Overall. if the Dive is operating out of Weirs Beach and Wolfeboro, it's a slow ride to major sandbars, and I think we will see some changes to the business model. I'm sure there is better money in catering events that are pre-planned than taking your chances on a sandbar hoping to sell hot dogs on a rainy day.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:39 AM   #33
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With close by $1.00/hr public parking spaces lining the street, street lights, city police, visibility from the boardwalk above, plus the immediately close 230' big white Mount Washington, plus the two 70' Sophie C and Doris E tour boats all in tight, close proximity ..... there ...... The Dive has backed itself into a very happening spot.

Is just a shame that Flightcraft totally removed that old miniature golf course. With two or three beers, that was a most fun course. Miniature golf would occupy people with some golfing fun before or after hitting The Dive ....... Fore!
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:26 AM   #34
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Adding "landowners" to this debate is a mistake IMO. It just cloudy's the waters so to speak.
I absolutely disagree..... I don't think it cloudy's the water anymore the no-rafting rules to begin with.... No Rafting area's came about because of landowners in specific area's of the lake. Those land owners argued their case on the merits of safety, pollution, and noise. And those got legislation that curbed some of the activities that they objective to, that they had to consistently witness because of the proximity of their land to certain established "Rafting locations"......

I personally would like to see these rules as a whole removed, as I believe they have become a safety net for land owners, and anywhere on the lake that becomes a popular anchoring location, seems to quickly end up a no Rafting zone a few years later...
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:13 AM   #35
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Default Spuds

I am trying to understand how spuds work. I think they bore into the lake bottom to stabilize the craft. Does that not disturb the lake bed and cause some silt? How deep do they go?

I know the barges (and the Dive) on the lake use them. Not looking for new laws here just trying to understand how disturbing the lake bed is ok with DES.

Could I use spuds to anchor a boat or jetski for a few hours?

Sorry if this is a stupid question. Just seeking knowledge!

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Old 04-19-2019, 12:44 PM   #36
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I am trying to understand how spuds work. I think they bore into the lake bottom to stabilize the craft. Does that not disturb the lake bed and cause some silt? How deep do they go?

I know the barges (and the Dive) on the lake use them. Not looking for new laws here just trying to understand how disturbing the lake bed is ok with DES.

Could I use spuds to anchor a boat or jetski for a few hours?

Sorry if this is a stupid question. Just seeking knowledge!

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IG
Yes! Mostly the go fast bass boats are using them for short-term anchoring while casting for bass. No one says you can’t install one on your own boat.
They range from a simple hand operated “stick pin” to powered poles that raise and lower.
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:47 PM   #37
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IG, the bottom is disturbed in many ways. The first that comes to mind is people swimming who walk on the bottom of the lake disturbing the lake bed. Another is bass fishing people who use power poles or spuds to hold the boat in place while they fish a particular area. I am sure there are many more. Hope this helps.
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Old 04-19-2019, 04:55 PM   #38
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Barge spuds donít bore into the lake bottom. The are dropped, impact the bottom. Iíve seen some that are them held in place with a pin and some that are allowed to move up/down in their collars to ensure that they stay on the bottom with wave action.


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Old 04-20-2019, 05:51 AM   #39
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Barges with barge spuds, as seen on the lake, may have fours spuds, one in each corner of the barge, and are usually 20' long tree trunks with the end sharpened to a point using a chainsaw.

Using either the barge's excavator or crane, the pointy tree trunk, aka the spud, gets banged into the lake bottom to hold the barge in one place for doing construction close to the shore line.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:58 AM   #40
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Have had a barge anchored (using spuds) next to my place many, many, many times over the past 20 years. Have never seen him use his excavator to pound the spuds. He has used the equipment to pull them up.


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Old 04-20-2019, 11:22 AM   #41
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I absolutely disagree..... I don't think it cloudy's the water anymore the no-rafting rules to begin with.... No Rafting area's came about because of landowners in specific area's of the lake. Those land owners argued their case on the merits of safety, pollution, and noise. And those got legislation that curbed some of the activities that they objective to, that they had to consistently witness because of the proximity of their land to certain established "Rafting locations"......

I personally would like to see these rules as a whole removed, as I believe they have become a safety net for land owners, and anywhere on the lake that becomes a popular anchoring location, seems to quickly end up a no Rafting zone a few years later...


Amen to this guy. People can we stop being so over sensitive, these rafting rules are getting out of hand. And honestly becoming dangerous for all. And why does everyone care let the Dive live try and succeed. Itís a great spot if youíve been, they get a lot of harsh criticism from people on the forum and it isnít fair to them. If youíve spoke with the owners they are very nice people, and the lake needed something like this. I think the lake would be a better place with the rafting zones not in existence. Very well said LIforrelaxin
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Old 04-20-2019, 12:04 PM   #42
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Amen to this guy. People can we stop being so over sensitive, these rafting rules are getting out of hand. And honestly becoming dangerous for all. And why does everyone care let the Dive live try and succeed. Itís a great spot if youíve been, they get a lot of harsh criticism from people on the forum and it isnít fair to them. If youíve spoke with the owners they are very nice people, and the lake needed something like this. I think the lake would be a better place with the rafting zones not in existence. Very well said LIforrelaxin


Excellent I whole heartily agree


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Old 04-29-2019, 04:43 PM   #43
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If you feel strongly on the SB 162 vote to exempt spud barges (the Dive) from rafting rules, you have to speak tonight. The committee is meeting for the last time tomorrow and its a speak now type of thing. If you email your thoughts to this email address it will go to all members. After tomorrow at 10 am, this will be decided.

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Old 04-29-2019, 05:10 PM   #44
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If you feel strongly on the SB 162 vote to exempt spud barges (the Dive) from rafting rules, you have to speak tonight. The committee is meeting for the last time tomorrow and its a speak now type of thing. If you email your thoughts to this email address it will go to all members. After tomorrow at 10 am, this will be decided.



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Thanks for the info.

Cheers!

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Old 04-30-2019, 05:06 AM   #45
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Amen to this guy. People can we stop being so over sensitive, these rafting rules are getting out of hand. And honestly becoming dangerous for all. And why does everyone care let the Dive live try and succeed. Itís a great spot if youíve been, they get a lot of harsh criticism from people on the forum and it isnít fair to them. If youíve spoke with the owners they are very nice people, and the lake needed something like this. I think the lake would be a better place with the rafting zones not in existence. Very well said LIforrelaxin
Dont worry about the Dive, 30 people on here Bitchin, 100 people on theDive every day
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Old 05-01-2019, 12:40 PM   #46
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The House Resources Committee voted yesterday to "Retain" SB162 for more study. It will stay in the committee with no further votes until they report in October. Retained bill reports will go to the Floor of the House in January 2020.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:54 PM   #47
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Dont worry about the Dive, 30 people on here Bitchin, 100 people on theDive every day
I am not worried about the Dive.... And personally I think it would be neat if the succeed, where many others have failed....

What I am worried about is bad legislation, that leaves to many loop holes. The No Rafting regulations are bad enough, but to add this exception creating loopholes will only make things worse.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:14 PM   #48
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I am not worried about the Dive.... And personally I think it would be neat if the succeed, where many others have failed....

What I am worried about is bad legislation, that leaves to many loop holes. The No Rafting regulations are bad enough, but to add this exception creating loopholes will only make things worse.
Repeal the NRZ in its entirety, i would guess that those "loop holes" and at least a dozen other useless pieces of legislation would fall by the wayside as a result.
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