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Old 08-27-2013, 12:13 PM   #1
Greene's Basin Girl
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Default What An Idiot!

This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:25 PM   #2
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Default Can't understand why?

Everyone choose to boat with the idiots on weekend. Don't you know the weekends is like a combat zone? When idiots have the right of way!

Thanks God Weekends are only two days long. I have five days to enjoy the lake!
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:55 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by BroadHopper View Post
Everyone choose to boat with the idiots on weekend. Don't you know the weekends is like a combat zone? Where idiots have the right of way?

Thanks God Weekends are only two days long. I have five days to enjoy the lake!
Not everyone has the luxury to be able to boat midweek....
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:43 PM   #4
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GBG, were they speeding? It seems to me that most of these people I see are well within the limit.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:54 AM   #5
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Default Safe Passage

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Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni View Post
GBG, were they speeding? It seems to me that most of these people I see are well within the limit.
I think that she was more concerned about the 9' distance. At that distance, even 20mph is scary...
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:09 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by codeman671 View Post
Not everyone has the luxury to be able to boat midweek....

I have the luxury of boating five days a week all season

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Old 08-30-2013, 10:00 AM   #7
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Being Labor Day Weekend, Personally, I'm going to stay off the lake, for my own sanity and peace of mind, and potentially save myself a lot of aggravation.

I've run into that 9' distance with other idiot boaters, all too often on weekends.

Plan on boating Tues. after the holiday crowd has left.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:27 PM   #8
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Comming to a place near you - Weekend at Bernie's!
Just like every other holiday weekend on the lake. Sit back have a drink and enjoy the show!
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:27 PM   #9
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I dread Memorial Day weekend because it is the start of the tourist season.
I love Labor Day weekend because it is the end of the tourist season.

To each his/her own.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:22 PM   #10
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I had an ***hole in a 30 ft Formula almost run his boat over mine at night on a weekend. I was doing about 23mph. Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30. My guess is he was passing me on the right and wasn't looking. I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left. Missed me by 20ft... AT NIGHT!!
Then he starts yelling at me! Didn't you see me? Said he would report me! I said go ahead. I'd love to hear him explain to the cops that a guy in front of him slowed down and he almost hit him. He was clearly within 150ft of me. At night. Was speeding. Was within 150 (on my inside) of moored boats.
The lake is full of morons on the weekend, with boats that they buy to compensate for their manhood. Can't handle them.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:50 AM   #11
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nice 1st post LP. welcome.
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:46 PM   #12
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nice 1st post LP. welcome.
Hey thanks NHBUOY - new to this forum, but been at it on bike forums.. Ya, that was the most spooky scene I've had on the water and have been boating for my entire life. Guy must have been dong 40 plus to get to me that fast without me knowing.
I am now real paranoid at night. YOu have to think that there is some idiot trying to hit you the whole time you're out there. Assume you have no lights on and every boat has a drunk in it.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by laserp View Post
Hey thanks NHBUOY - new to this forum, but been at it on bike forums.. Ya, that was the most spooky scene I've had on the water and have been boating for my entire life. Guy must have been dong 40 plus to get to me that fast without me knowing.
I am now real paranoid at night. YOu have to think that there is some idiot trying to hit you the whole time you're out there. Assume you have no lights on and every boat has a drunk in it.
Laser
Don't assume every boater is drunk. Just be cautious and operate within the law and good judgment. Welcome aboard.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:23 PM   #14
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Don't assume every boater is drunk. Just be cautious and operate within the law and good judgment. Welcome aboard.
What I was doing. My point is be on alert and be ready for the other guy not to be within the law and making good judgment.
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:04 AM   #15
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Exclamation "Drunk" Doesn't Always Mean Alcohol...

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GBG, were they speeding? It seems to me that most of these people I see are well within the limit.
This past Labor Day Weekend started with a dim and very dark cloud-covered Saturday. That didn't stop a dozen Donzis from turning their exhaust diverters to "full-noise"—racing through peaceable boater traffic—and "setting the pace" for the rest of the Labor Day Weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1am31TT4hDI
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:28 AM   #16
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APS, I watched the video (Thanks for posting), I don't see any boater traffic being raced through. And those boats do not look to be going fast at all let alone racing.

Do you have a zoom lens? Closer detail on the pics and vids would be great.
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:12 AM   #17
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I didn't see any racing either..... I see a few boats (probably friends) having a little fun. Its just more propaganda from APS!

Shocker!

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Old 09-10-2013, 08:46 AM   #18
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Default ....Sunday's; nine to noon .....be there!!!

...didn't someone suggest a twelve mile long, motorboat-no speed limit zone, every Sunday from nine to noon, out on the broads ..... that would be a very welcome addition to the Big Lake ..... hut-hut-hut .... yes it would ..... thank you very much!
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:31 AM   #19
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Default Have to agree

With Woodsy and Websatwinni. The boats does not have the spray in the back for speed. They appear to be 150' away from each other. so it is a friendly get together and let's go boating!
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:43 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Green's Basin Girl View Post
This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.
Kinda makes you wonder how people without brains can afford to have a boat like that, but there are plenty of them out there. Suggest grabbing your cell phone or camera, snap a picture including a clear shot of the bow number and send it to Marine Patrol with date and time noted.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:44 AM   #21
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Default Ummmm.......

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I had an ***hole in a 30 ft Formula almost run his boat over mine at night on a weekend. I was doing about 23mph. Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30. My guess is he was passing me on the right and wasn't looking. I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left. Missed me by 20ft... AT NIGHT!!
Then he starts yelling at me! Didn't you see me? Said he would report me! I said go ahead. I'd love to hear him explain to the cops that a guy in front of him slowed down and he almost hit him. He was clearly within 150ft of me. At night. Was speeding. Was within 150 (on my inside) of moored boats.
The lake is full of morons on the weekend, with boats that they buy to compensate for their manhood. Can't handle them.
Laser...

I have a couple of problems with your story.... and maybe I am missing something here. But.....

You said you were doing 23 MPH and came off plane and pulled over to the right. No offense but you are in the WAY wrong right here! You should have looked behind you before changing speed or course. Had looked behind you before changing course and direction you SHOULD have noticed the guy in the Formula (you didn't). You were CLEARLY being overtaken by the guy in the Formula. This makes you the STAND ON BOAT and by LAW you are REQUIRED to maintain COURSE and SPEED until after you have been overtaken! You lowered your speed and turned INTO the path of Formula who was overtaking you. (He was passing on your right according to your story) Then you cut even SHARPER RIGHT compounding your mistake! (Both boats were required to turn AWAY from each other) had the Formula followed the rules and turned right (away from you) most likely we would be reading about your injuries in the paper!

Your slowdown and course change was in the wrong. Had their been a collision you would have been at fault for failure to maintain a proper lookout as well as failure to follow basic navigation. At no point in your story did you have the right of way!

http://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire/...3101_700056387

PS: The nighttime speed limit is 30MPH.... not 25! The Formula wasn't speeding or breaking any rules at all!

So who is the moron now? Maybe before you call someone an ***HOLE & MORON and question their manhood, you might want to make sure you are in the right...... maybe you need a Safe Boater Refresher course?

Woodsy
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:09 PM   #22
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Exclamation Incorrect

The rule states that the give-way vessel must keep well away from the boat it is overtaking that is stopping, slowing down, or changing course. In the event that the give-way vessel does not take appropriate action (ie Capt. Bonehead) the stand-on vessel should try to take action to avoid collision (ie common sense - get out of the way).

In this case the stand-on vessel did look behind, did not see the oncoming boat due to nightfall and overtaking vessel's speed and therefore is absolutely NOT at fault. The give-way vessel clearly was too close, traveling too fast, and did not give adequate clearence.


give-way vessel
The vessel that is required to take early and substantial action to keep well away from other vessels by stopping, slowing down or changing course
stand-on vessel.
The vessel that must maintain its course and speed unless it becomes apparent that the give-way boat is not taking appropriate action; if you must take action, do not turn toward the give-way boat or cross in front of it.

Had the stand-on vessel been able to see the overtaking boat, then they should maintain course (if possible). However, the onus is on the overtaking give-way vessel to mitigate such factors by taking "early and substantial action to keep well away."
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:37 PM   #23
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Prices....

You are right and wrong.... it is the job of the give way vessel to alter course and speed to avoid collision. The Formula did exactly that. See what I wrote below.

The Formula did what he was supposed to do. He made a command decision to pass Laser on the right.(No legal issue there although judging from the story Laser tells, passing on the left would have been the wiser choice) The Formula committed and started to pass Laser on the right with an overtake speed of approximately 7 MPH. LASER DIDNT SEE THE FORMULA, SLOWED DOWN AND TURNED INTO THE PATH OF THE FORMULA. This error in judgement is on Laser, not the Formula. Laser is the STAND BOAT. Laser then COMPOUNDED the error by turning even more sharply into the path of the Formula. Before Laser began to slow and turn LASER should have cleared his baffles and made sure there was nobody there. The Formula obviously gave Laser some clearance when he went to pass him on the right, (150' can be debated as we weren't there but it wasn't that far off) otherwise Lasers sudden slowdown and course change WOULD have resulted in a collision. No doubt about it. At some point the Formula took evasive action by turning left and crossed Lasers wake soon after after Laser sharpened his turn to the right. Both boats upon seeing a possible collision situation are REQUIRED to TURN AWAY from each other. Laser is required to turn left to avoid a collision, the Formula was required to turn right. Had the Formula turned right And Laser turned right (which he did) there would have been a collision.

Had Laser kept and maintained proper lookout he would have known there was a boat BEHIND HIM thus making Laser the STAND ON BOAT.

Draw the diagram out on paper.... like I did. Then add speeds into the equation... 23MPH = 33.73 FPS or approximately 4.4 seconds to cover 150' and 30MPH = 44FPS or approximately 3.4 seconds to cover 150'

Had this been a cut an dry crossing situation, Laser would not have the right of way as he was crossing the Formula's bow from Left to Right.

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Old 09-10-2013, 04:43 PM   #24
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Perhaps NH law could add some color:

270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water. –
...
IV. When vessels are running in the same direction and the vessel which is astern desires to pass the other, it shall do so only when sufficient distance between the vessels is available to avoid danger of collision, and at such a speed that its wake will not endanger the boat being passed or its occupants. No person operating a vessel shall abruptly change its course without first determining that it can safely be done without crossing immediately ahead of another vessel.
...
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Old 09-10-2013, 05:07 PM   #25
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If you are passing some one it is your responsibility to pass at a distance sufficient to avoid a collision should that boat change course, period. If you are passing so close that you can't adjust for a course change or risk a collision because of a course change , then you are too close and not a very good boater in my opinion.
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Old 09-10-2013, 05:08 PM   #26
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I swear if somebody has enough patience, they could find a law to negate every other law. Not just in boating, but in everything.
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Old 09-10-2013, 08:32 PM   #27
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ITD,

So your driving down the 3 lane highway, overtaking a slower car in the middle lane. You change lanes and commit yourself to passing him. All of a sudden he abruptly slows and swerves into your lane..... You have already committed to passing him, your in your lane so you brake abruptly and swerve the opposite way into the lane he just left to avoid the collision. Had their been a collision who would be at fault?? Is it your fault? Or the slower guys fault? If I am to follow your logic its your fault as you didn't prepare for or leave enough room for the slower driver's erratic driving.

You have reasonable expectation that the other car saw you overtaking him and there was no reason you should expect anything other than he continues on his current path and speed as you go around him. The law says he is supposed to use directional to signal a lane change and look before changing lanes to make sure the lane is clear, if the lane isn't clear he is not supposed to enter it. This scenario happens every day on highways of NH.

Same basic rules apply in this situation.

Its pretty much the same situation here just with bigger distances. Instead of 10' lanes we have the 150' safe passage rule. The onus is on the Formula for avoiding the collision and he did just that. There was no collision. However this doesn't absolve Laser of potentially causing the collision by failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to obey navigation rules. Had Laser kept a proper lookout and checked before he changed course and speed he would have seen the bow lights of the Formula, been able to determine the Formulas course and this whole situation would have been avoided. The Formula as the GIVE WAY boat had the reasonable expectation that Laser as the STAND ON boat was aware of his position and would proceed accordingly. The STAND ON boat has just as much responsibility as the GIVE WAY boat when it comes to accidents. Both skippers are tasked with avoiding collision.


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Old 09-10-2013, 09:38 PM   #28
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ITD,

The STAND ON boat has just as much responsibility as the GIVE WAY boat when it comes to accidents. Both skippers are tasked with avoiding collision.

Woodsy
I agree 100%. With all the loonies on the lake, whether I am stand on or give away, I expect the other boat to ignore rules and common sense so I steer away from the other boat.

Better to be safe than sorry
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:40 PM   #29
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ITD,

So your driving down the 3 lane highway, overtaking a slower car in the middle lane. You change lanes and commit yourself to passing him. All of a sudden he abruptly slows and swerves into your lane..... You have already committed to passing him, your in your lane so you brake abruptly and swerve the opposite way into the lane he just left to avoid the collision. Had their been a collision who would be at fault?? Is it your fault? Or the slower guys fault? If I am to follow your logic its your fault as you didn't prepare for or leave enough room for the slower driver's erratic driving.

You have reasonable expectation that the other car saw you overtaking him and there was no reason you should expect anything other than he continues on his current path and speed as you go around him. The law says he is supposed to use directional to signal a lane change and look before changing lanes to make sure the lane is clear, if the lane isn't clear he is not supposed to enter it. This scenario happens every day on highways of NH.

Same basic rules apply in this situation.

Its pretty much the same situation here just with bigger distances. Instead of 10' lanes we have the 150' safe passage rule. The onus is on the Formula for avoiding the collision and he did just that. There was no collision. However this doesn't absolve Laser of potentially causing the collision by failing to keep a proper lookout and failing to obey navigation rules. Had Laser kept a proper lookout and checked before he changed course and speed he would have seen the bow lights of the Formula, been able to determine the Formulas course and this whole situation would have been avoided. The Formula as the GIVE WAY boat had the reasonable expectation that Laser as the STAND ON boat was aware of his position and would proceed accordingly. The STAND ON boat has just as much responsibility as the GIVE WAY boat when it comes to accidents. Both skippers are tasked with avoiding collision.


Woodsy

Sorry Woodsy, I don't think we're going to agree here, the overtaken vessel has the right of way, driving on a road is a completely different animal and not applicable here. If you pass another boat at the minimum 150 feet you are begging to be t-boned and you will have no time to explain your parsing of the stand on / give way nuances to the other boat.

I also don't agree with your statement that by the "being passed" boat turning right he becomes the Stand on boat during a pass, there could be any number of reasons why a boat might have to make a turn, if the "being passed" boat needs to maneuver, then the give way boat needs to give way, not try to proclaim he was in the right because the "being passed" boat needed to turn and was crossing him port to starboard. In a lawsuit that defense would most certainly fail.

It's a big lake out there, pass far enough away so that if the boat being passed changes course you have the time and space to avoid a collision. If you pass closer than that then you are being foolish. If you are in a situation where you can only pass at 150ft then you should wait until you have more room. I also think that as the give way vessel, you need to keep yourself in the position to give way, there are many things that can cause a stand on boat to deviate its course, a smart captain will be ready for that in a position to act.


That being said, it's also wise to scan 360 degrees, have your head on a swivel when piloting a boat. Unlike driving a car, where you can anticipate most traffic conflicts due to roads and lanes, in a boat you can be hit from any angle at any time. I specifically look for boats behind me when I turn because I am truly amazed at how many spatial awareness deficient boaters there are out there.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:57 PM   #30
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ITD...

We can agree to disagree....

I will agree that it is a big lake and an even bigger ocean. Yet somehow collisions still happen. That's why we have rules. By your reasoning all collisions that occur in a passing situation are the fault of the Give Way.

If that's the case, why assign ANY responsibilities at all to the vessel being passed? Why call that vessel the STAND ON Vessel? Why assign the responsibility of maintaining course and speed while being overtaken by law? Just because? Maybe they should change the rules to pass at your own risk and any and all responsibility / liability is on the Give Way vessel!

At some point during the attempt to pass, the Give Way and Stand ON responsibilities become clearly defined. It is an absolute. I don't profess to know when that occurs. In this case Laser by his own admission did not see the Formula (Failure to keep a proper lookout) so it might be a little murky depending on what the Formula skipper had to say. In a trial, or Grand Jury hearing, the jury would hear the evidence as presented by NHMP, and make the call at what point the Formula was overtaking Laser. Its at that point the Stand On and Give Way responsibilities would be defined.

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Old 09-11-2013, 02:48 AM   #31
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Default Give Way

The incident happened at night. The vessel being overtaken came off of plane and pulled to the right. If you are going so fast and so close (at night, let's remember) that you, as the overtaking GIVEWAY, vessel do not have enough time to maneuver then by definition you have not acted appropriately.

Of all passing situations, this is the most clear cut rule that the vessel overtaking must maneuver to avoid the possibility of collision. The Stand On vessel never becomes the give way vessel.


See: NavrulesHandbook.com/Rule13.html
See: http://maritimeknowhow.com/wp-conten...Overtaking.pdf

A change in course by the overtaken vessel shall not make the overtaken vessel a crossing vessel.

Plain and simple. Period.
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:02 AM   #32
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Prices & ITD...

I am with you guys in that I give as much room as possible before I go around another boat. I keep my head on a swivel in all directions. Its the prudent thing to do.

Prices,

Whether the incident happened at night of during the day it doesn't matter. I am operating under the assumption that neither boat was speeding. Laser said he was doing 23 & the Formula was at 30. a difference at the beginning of 7 MPH. The Formula has the right to pass Laser night or day and he has reasonable expectation that Laser would obey the rules of the water as the STAND ON vessel and maintain course and speed. I don't think Laser slowing down is the issue here. The Formula saw Laser and knew he was there and had already adjusted his course to go around him. Lasers abrupt turn into the path of the passing boat is the issue. And by Laser's own admission he didn't see the Formula..... Had Laser seen the Formula passing him on the right I seriously doubt Laser STILL would have changed course abruptly to the right! This is all on Laser for FAILURE TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT!

The Formula OBVIOUSLY left enough room to maneuver because there was no accident. He was able to slow down and cross Laser's wake to the left despite Laser turning right into his path even sharper. My point was and still is the Laser was in the wrong by not seeing the Formula and acting accordingly. If Laser is somehow absolved of acting accordingly as the STAND ON vessel (MAINTAIN COURSE AND SPEED) then ALL passing accidents are caused by the GIVE WAY vessel and why assign any rules at all to the STAND ON vessel?

BOTH VESSELS MUST MANUEVER PROPERLY TO AVOID A COLLISION! NOT JUST THE GIVE WAY!

Woodsy
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:45 AM   #33
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Default Woodsy has it right

I have to agree with Woodsy on this one. I thought exactly the same thing when I first read Laser's account. Bottom line is, regardless of the rules and laws, one must keep a good lookout scan at all times, especially at night, and not make any course changes without first clearing the direction of turn.
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:04 PM   #34
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+1

The chain of events started with 'failure to keep proper lookout', IMO.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:49 AM   #35
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Default Accidents happens

When both parties decides not to provide evasive action. Whether it is stand on or give away.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:09 AM   #36
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Arrow NOT the Interstate Highway System...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pricestavern View Post
The incident happened at night. The vessel being overtaken came off of plane and pulled to the right. If you are going so fast and so close (at night, let's remember) that you, as the overtaking GIVEWAY, vessel do not have enough time to maneuver then by definition you have not acted appropriately.

Of all passing situations, this is the most clear cut rule that the vessel overtaking must maneuver to avoid the possibility of collision. The Stand On vessel never becomes the give way vessel.

See: NavrulesHandbook.com/Rule13.html
See: http://maritimeknowhow.com/wp-conten...Overtaking.pdf

A change in course by the overtaken vessel shall not make the overtaken vessel a crossing vessel.

Plain and simple. Period.
I followed this discussion with interest—mentally placing a sailboat as the overtaken vessel.

Operating at the whim of invisible "power", a sailboat can be the victim of unforeseen "acts of God".

To a speedboat—especially at night—required gibes and tacks can take on the appearance of reckless operation.

Over the centuries, the writers of maritime law have placed the vast weight of responsibility on the overtaking boat—which is as it should be.

IMO.

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Old 09-13-2013, 10:46 AM   #37
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APS...

Both vessels are required to maintain a proper lookout. THE END.

This whole discussion is really about MAINTAINING A PROPER LOOKOUT. Had Laser seen the Formula, he would not have turned into the Formula's path! He would have maintained his course (maybe even altered slightly left) and waited for the Formula to pass then turned right to head to his destination. PER THE RULES. Laser didn't see the Formula and turned sharply into the Formulas path....

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Old 09-13-2013, 12:33 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
APS...

Both vessels are required to maintain a proper lookout. THE END.

This whole discussion is really about MAINTAINING A PROPER LOOKOUT. Had Laser seen the Formula, he would not have turned into the Formula's path! He would have maintained his course (maybe even altered slightly left) and waited for the Formula to pass then turned right to head to his destination. PER THE RULES. Laser didn't see the Formula and turned sharply into the Formulas path....

Woodsy
Just playing devil's advocate here...can you maintain a proper lookout ( as in looking at what's ahead of you) if you are looking back over your shoulder? Isn't this why we are required to have spotters when towing others? So the driver can keep his eyes forward?
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Old 09-13-2013, 01:18 PM   #39
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Of course, proper look out is watching for all potential danger, 360 degrees, not just in front of you.
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Old 09-13-2013, 01:20 PM   #40
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And we have spotters with skiers and tubers to watch the child, while the captain watches all other boats, 360 degrees.
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Old 09-13-2013, 02:55 PM   #41
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"When Overtaking Another Boat: The boat being overtaken is the privileged vessel. Only after signaling and receiving an acknowledgment can the overtaking boat pass. (Use on blast to pass on the right, and two blasts to pass on the left.

When Being Overtaken: Be ready for trouble when a power boat passes you in a narrow waterway. As the lead boat, which always has the right of way, stay on your side of the channel and maintain a steady speed so that the overtaking vessel can pass you safely. Use your radio to discuss this with the passing boat."

Did the over taking boat (Formula) use a signal (horn blast) AND receive achknowledgement? No? He was in wrong

Did the over taken boat maintain speed? No? he would be in the wrong IF the over taking boat above signalled.

Bottom line: "As the lead boat, which always has the right of way"

That said, I always try to follow the rules of law AND the rules of common sense. Just because you have the right of way doesn't mean you proceed carelessly into the path of another craft then wave your arms about having the right of way....even if you are in the right. Thats how I act on the water BUT I always expect the worse from the other guy so I don't have problems.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:06 PM   #42
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Default Omg

Seriously???? This is even a debate. laserp admitted in their statement that he FAILED TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT. Direct quote:

"I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30."

So laser made a decision to come off plain and TURN without looking behind his vessel first. GUILTY, CASE CLOSED, ZERO DEBATE. Wow, the polarity on this issue scares the heck out of me that there are boaters on this forum that don't see that? Am I missing something. laserp, you admittedly failed to keep proper lookout. All resulting commentary and calling out of other boater is null and void. Had you been hit you and your passengers injuries would be your own fault. I don't mean to sound harsh or come down on you but this was your responsibility in this instance.

Yikes!
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:41 PM   #43
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I agree with what you have said but clearly there is two sides to this debate, it also appears the driver of the Formula did not keep a proper lookout. If a boat in front of you comes off plane and turns are you not obligated to keep 150 feet from them or should you should you pass within 20 feet and yell at them?
What if the guy in the Formula actually hit the other boat and killed someone, where would the negligence lie. Time to bring in the judge and jury.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:44 PM   #44
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just going to use some information seen here in the thread to shed some light on things.... 5 minutes is a long time....

23MPH = 33.73 FPS

33.73 FPS X 5 mins X 60 Secs/per minute = 10,119 Feet or 1.9 miles

44FPS X 5 mins X 60 secs/per minute = 13,200 Feet or 2.5 miles

so it would appear the formula was at least a 1/2 mile back when laserp last checked behind him... and when looking quick was probably not visable...

The formula however would have seen laserp, with out an issue... and was make judgements assuming that laserp was not going to change course or direction...

Laserp made a huge error in not looking over his should before coming down off plane and turning....

Now that is not to say that the Formula was innocent in all this either....

However when boating at night, one must be super vigilant.... waiting 5 minutes and not checking behind you before changing course is a mistake....

In the end no one was hurt, and after that it is all just a learning experience....

The math doesn't lie.... that faster the formula was going, the further behind laserp he was, and waiting 5 mins after checking and then making a course and speed change, indicates that a proper lookout didn't happen....
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:48 PM   #45
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There are a lot of "If's" here. The way I see it the guy in the Formula DID keep a proper lookout. He saw the boat, decided to pass the boat and laserp came off plain and turned into the Formula's path. Now the "20 feet" mentioned has to be believed and it's probably an embellishment, however even if accurate the Formula may have been about to pass at 150 feet until laserp admittedly turned into the path of the Formula. The Formula seemed to have taken some evasive action according to the story, unless I missed something, to avoid the collision. Sorry, I still hold laserp accountable for the incident.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:55 PM   #46
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At the end of the day there was no collision and no one got hurt. What scares me is the number of people who feel it is perfectly reasonable to pass within 150 feet of another vessel that is traveling at 25 mph, to top it off, they think due to their interpretation of the law, that the vessel being passed will maintain its course so it reasonable to pass so closely. I will continue to vigilantly look for you as I travel on the lake, because honestly, you scare me.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:03 PM   #47
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ITD...


I think the Formula was originally 150' or so passing Laser on the starboard side. I say that because had the Formula been much closer given the speeds Laser posted in the story - 23MPH and 30MPH there would have been a collision. The Formula obviously knew Laser was there as he was able to slow his boat and turn to port across Laser's wake even as Laser tightened his turn to starboard.

I don't see where the Formula did anything wrong here. Laser didn't see the Formula... therein lies the mistake. If Laser was being vigilant, as you claim to be... this incident would not have happened.

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Old 09-13-2013, 06:22 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green's Basin Girl View Post
This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.
Okay, after reading Green's Basin Girl's original post, it is becoming much more apparent to me who is at fault....
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:29 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
ITD...


I think the Formula was originally 150' or so passing Laser on the starboard side. I say that because had the Formula been much closer given the speeds Laser posted in the story - 23MPH and 30MPH there would have been a collision. The Formula obviously knew Laser was there as he was able to slow his boat and turn to port across Laser's wake even as Laser tightened his turn to starboard.

I don't see where the Formula did anything wrong here. Laser didn't see the Formula... therein lies the mistake. If Laser was being vigilant, as you claim to be... this incident would not have happened.

Woodsy

Woodsy, without rehashing the ROW issues and who is responsible for what, nobody is 100 percent vigilant try as we might we are human and piloting a boat put you in an environment that makes vigilance even harder. Without going into the physics, 150 feet at 25mph is covered in a very short amount of time, why not double or triple that amount of time by increasing the passing distance between the boats and give yourself and the other boat more time to react to the unexpected?

Well, one little rehash, the Formula ended up much closer to the Laser than 150 feet, we are not going to agree as to whose fault that was, but it's a large lake, if the Formula had doubled his distance away from the Laser the close call probably would not have happened.

Finally, to APS's point, I sail often on the lake, and I am always amazed at the number of power boats who deviate their course to pass closely by. Half of those boats seem to have no clue that the sail boat is moving and some of those have to make some type of corrective adjustment to avoid an ultimate collision, all while there is another two miles of lake with no boats on it and more direct for their ultimate route.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:41 PM   #50
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TITLE XXII
NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY


CHAPTER 270-D
BOATING AND WATER SAFETY ON NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC WATERS


Section 270-D:2


270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water. –
I. Vessels shall be operated at headway speed only, while passing under all bridges.
II. (a) It shall be the duty of each vessel to keep to the right when vessels are approaching each other head on.
(b) When the courses of vessels are so far to the starboard of each other as not to be considered as approaching head on, they shall keep to the left.
III. When vessels are crossing courses or approaching each other in an oblique direction which may involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on its starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other, allowing the latter vessel to keep its course and speed.
IV. When vessels are running in the same direction and the vessel which is astern desires to pass the other, it shall do so only when sufficient distance between the vessels is available to avoid danger of collision, and at such a speed that its wake will not endanger the boat being passed or its occupants. No person operating a vessel shall abruptly change its course without first determining that it can safely be done without crossing immediately ahead of another vessel.

I think the law here was pretty clear....

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Old 09-13-2013, 06:47 PM   #51
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ITD.

The MAJOR point being made here is the following. A good captain ALWAYS, checks his or her surroundings BEFORE making a change of course and or speed. While you are correct that we should never assume that all captains are "good" given the example laid out here laserp was NOT a good captain at the time. And to concede to your point the captain of the Formula was not being a "good" captain either. However, I along with Woodsy and a few others are taking issue with laserp pointing the finger at the Formula when in fact laserp was just as much if not slightly MORE at fault. Remember when you point a finger there are three pointing back at you.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:31 PM   #52
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Default Section IV

"IV. When vessels are running in the same direction and the vessel which is astern desires to pass the other, it shall do so only when sufficient distance between the vessels is available to avoid danger of collision"

It is unclear from the account given whether laserp looked behind him immediately before executing the manuever. Laserp did say that he had looked behind him "many times", though it does appear that there was a 5 minute gap. If that is so, then I agree that he is at fault here. But not soley at fault.

One cannot assume that they have been spotted, especially coming up from behind and at night. It appears that Laserp was traveling alone and thus placing a dedicated 'proper lookout' was not possible. Being at night, even if he did look behind him just before manuevering he could have missed spotting the boat. So too, may have the lookout. It is for this reason, as well as to cover faulty maneuvering by the leading vessel, that section 4 declares that the overtaking vessel must give sufficient distance when passing.

What is sufficient distance? At night and overtaking, a much larger space than what the Formula was giving. The Formula erred on not keeping enough distance to pass safely.

Last edited by Pricestavern; 09-14-2013 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:35 PM   #53
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Ay yai yai.

Direct quote:

" I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30."

He STARTED TO PULL OFF PLAIN AND PULL TO THE RIGHT. The next sentence, TURNED AROUND AND THIS GUY WAS... yada yada yada.

Admitted in his own words that he failed to keep a proper lookout.

My lord above. lol
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelnut View Post
Ay yai yai.

Direct quote:

" I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination. Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30."

He STARTED TO PULL OFF PLAIN AND PULL TO THE RIGHT. The next sentence, TURNED AROUND AND THIS GUY WAS... yada yada yada.

Admitted in his own words that he failed to keep a proper lookout.

My lord above. lol
Oy vey...but he never said that he never looked behind in that 5 minutes. Many people are making a huge assumption there. And since he isn't responding because he realized there are a bunch of no-it-alls on here, we're not going to get the answer to that question.
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Old 09-15-2013, 09:15 PM   #55
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gilly,

It has nothing to do with being a KNOW it all. The man said in his own words that DIRECT QUOTE:

He "..Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination"



If you can't read that as, he waited 5 minutes before looking behind his vessel or the fact that he didn't state that he checked behind his vessel before making the maneuver then ummmm wow... is all I can say. I mean no big deal but the man said in his post that he

..had an ***hole in a 30 ft Formula almost run his boat over mine at night on a weekend.

All I am saying is that by his post it looks very much like he failed to keep a proper lookout. I am by no way excusing the operator of the Formula for his part. However the poster, laserp was NO BETTER an operator at the time. Therefore, as I said before, when you point the finger oftentimes there are three fingers pointing back at you. Nothing personal towards you or anyone else.

It seems as though many here aren't truly familiar with boating law. YIKES.
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Old 09-15-2013, 09:20 PM   #56
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I agree with Gilly, he never said he didn't look behind in those 5 minutes. Can't blame a person for not responding when he gets chewed up by the the piranhas on this forum.
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:30 PM   #57
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Chaselady/Gillygirl...

I take the boating laws and regulations VERY seriously. I was taught to give as much room as possible.... keep my head on a 360 degree swivel and when in doubt let the other guy go regardless of right of way rules. Its the really smart thing to do...

What you are not getting is very, very plain and simple. IF Laser had looked behind him and seen the Formula... HE WOULD NOT HAVE TURNED INTO THE PATH OF THE FORMULA. Who does that? Who would INTENTIONALLY turn into the path of another boat???

So based on the assumption that Laser is a normal sane educated boat driver...

The only obvious explanation is that Laser DID NOT SEE the Formula. IF Laser didn't see the Formula behind him... then Laser is guilty of FAILING TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT. Its so simple!

We can debate if the Formula gave enough room all day long.... We weren't there. If the Formula went to Lasers port instead of starboard, we wouldn't have an issue. If the Formula wasn't there at all we wouldn't have an issue. But the reality is the Formula decided to pass Laser at the very instant Laser decided to slow down and turn. Just like every other accident or near miss there are usually several factors, one of the most important being operator error, the others being timing and environmental issues. In this case it was nighttime.

This whole debate is based on Laser's story... his words. Based on Laser's own words he was in the wrong plain and simple. We all have lapses, and we all make mistakes. Luckily this was a near miss. But the fault lies with Laser.... although some of the people on this forum would rather blame the big bad guy in the big bad Formula...

Woodsy
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:49 PM   #58
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I am not saying who was wrong, I was not there. It's not what is being said here, but how it is being delivered. There is an element of cruelty in some messages that I find very disappointing.
This is not what I expected from "senior, experienced boaters" it doesn't promote a good learning experience to newer members...rather it becomes intimidating and demeaning.
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Old 09-15-2013, 11:12 PM   #59
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Chaselady...

Did you read what Laser (who has 3-4 posts total) called the Formula operator? He called him an ***hole and insulted his manhood. I just pointed out that Laser was in the wrong. I have not been cruel at all just factual. Based on taking Laser at his words...

Sorry if I offended you. It bothers me that Laser was quick to point the finger at the Formula but his own words prove he was at fault... that's all.


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Old 09-15-2013, 11:48 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
Chaselady...

Did you read what Laser (who has 3-4 posts total) called the Formula operator? He called him an ***hole and insulted his manhood. I just pointed out that Laser was in the wrong. I have not been cruel at all just factual. Based on taking Laser at his words...

Sorry if I offended you. It bothers me that Laser was quick to point the finger at the Formula but his own words prove he was at fault... that's all.


Woodsy
It's not just you, but the remarks from hazelnut. Who in their right mind would want to write of their experience on the lake if they knew they were going to get jumped all over? Laser was vocal about his experience, but he wasn't pointing fingers at forum members...he seemed to be commiserating with Greens Basin Girl.
Unless, do you think it might have been a forum member driving the formula?!!
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:03 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Chaselady View Post
It's not just you, but the remarks from hazelnut. Who in their right mind would want to write of their experience on the lake if they knew they were going to get jumped all over? Laser was vocal about his experience, but he wasn't pointing fingers at forum members...he seemed to be commiserating with Greens Basin Girl.
Unless, do you think it might have been a forum member driving the formula?!!
Checking this 1200-post thread, a small group of "experienced" boaters failed to address "Proper Lookout" as a criticism of a Formula 370 that struck an island—at night.

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APS...

Both vessels are required to maintain a proper lookout. THE END.
The rules state that others can be assigned to the watch.

This rule is addressed to solo-sailing on wide expanses of water—where the skipper goes below to nap while on auto-pilot.

Quote:
"...Was speeding. Was within 150 (on my inside) of moored boats...


If laserp was turning into the aforementioned mooring field, his attention would be to that turn—but the Formula would be required to observe the burden to slow to headway speed. So why couldn't the Formula pass safely to port—instead?



Moreover, the rules require the Formula to advise the overtaken boat by VHF radio or approved signal. While this is seldom used on quiet waters—just like the required "lookout"—it is a requirement of the rules.

Certainly, "after dark" is a fully-appropriate use of this required signal.

From BoatUS.com:

Quote:
•Give-Way Vessel - If you are the Give-Way vessel, you must act as if the "stand-on" vessel has the right to keep going the way it is going. It is your responsibility to signal your intentions to the stand-on vessel, and it is your responsibility to maneuver your boat around the other in a safe manner. Also known as a "Burdened" vessel..."
The Formula has to meet the burden of safe passage—which on New Hampshire waters includes ten canoe-lengths between vessels—and headway speed when encountering land, island, and mooring field.

At night, a signal would have been a nice touch from the burdened Formula.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:48 AM   #62
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gilly,

It has nothing to do with being a KNOW it all. The man said in his own words that DIRECT QUOTE:

He "..Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination"



If you can't read that as, he waited 5 minutes before looking behind his vessel or the fact that he didn't state that he checked behind his vessel before making the maneuver then ummmm wow... is all I can say. I mean no big deal but the man said in his post that he

..had an ***hole in a 30 ft Formula almost run his boat over mine at night on a weekend.

All I am saying is that by his post it looks very much like he failed to keep a proper lookout. I am by no way excusing the operator of the Formula for his part. However the poster, laserp was NO BETTER an operator at the time. Therefore, as I said before, when you point the finger oftentimes there are three fingers pointing back at you. Nothing personal towards you or anyone else.

It seems as though many here aren't truly familiar with boating law. YIKES.
How do you know he didn't mean he looked behind him many times in those 5 minutes? I'm not arguing boating laws here, I'm arguing reading comprehension! So I guess I should make an insulting comment about people who can't parse a couple of sentences not knowing the boating laws because they don't understand what they're reading!

And the OP stated her husband didn't even see the boat that passed them within 9 feet until it was happening. Where's the outrageous indignation about that? Oh, that's right, she's not a junior member.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:07 AM   #63
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Chaselady...

Did you read what Laser (who has 3-4 posts total) called the Formula operator? He called him an ***hole and insulted his manhood. I just pointed out that Laser was in the wrong. I have not been cruel at all just factual. Based on taking Laser at his words...

Sorry if I offended you. It bothers me that Laser was quick to point the finger at the Formula but his own words prove he was at fault... that's all.


Woodsy
I have an issue with people putting 1 and 1 together and getting 3. I am not saying laserp was correct in either what he did or his delivery of the incident on this forum. But for people to state that he didn't look behind his boat for 5 minutes is a total misread of what was written. And now we're not going to get clarification because he's figured out that there is no point in responding because he'll just get piled on some more.

By the way, I got 100 on the boating exam. Guess I take it seriously, too.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:59 AM   #64
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How do you know he didn't mean he looked behind him many times in those 5 minutes? I'm not arguing boating laws here, I'm arguing reading comprehension! So I guess I should make an insulting comment about people who can't parse a couple of sentences not knowing the boating laws because they don't understand what they're reading!

And the OP stated her husband didn't even see the boat that passed them within 9 feet until it was happening. Where's the outrageous indignation about that? Oh, that's right, she's not a junior member.
So by your logic he intentionally turned into the path of the Formula??? And as to the OP, you are correct. Perhaps there was a bit of negligence on their part as well. I'd love to hear more on that story.

And Chaselady, I was not the person who called someone an ***hole. laserp came on to this forum calling someone a nasty name and insulting them. Now I am the big bad senior member?

There is no conspiracy theories at play here. I didn't appreciate laserp's tone in their post calling someone and offensive name and then describing a story where they were clearly in the wrong as much as the Formula. The resulting debate has been kind of silly. How can anyone think that laserp was keeping a proper watch when he deliberately turned into the path of the overtaking boat? Why would any sane captain do that?

Sorry if I have come off a bit harsh but the tone of the original message from lp was offensive.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:06 AM   #65
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..and gilly. Please tell me how we are supposed to interpret this?

"..Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination"

Was the entire cruise 5 minutes?

I don't see how anyone could read this any other way than he was cruising for 5 minutes after he had been looking behind his vessel. He ASSUMED in that 5 minute period that nobody could have closed in on him as fast as the Formula did. Now we all know assumptions in boating can lead to disaster. Maybe the Formula was speeding? Who knows. Also I am not even calling out lp for taking a 5 minute break from checking his stern. No big deal at all. Where I and a few others are taking issue is the fact that lp turned his vessel and changed speed BEFORE looking astern to see if by chance there was a vessel approaching. Why is this an issue with a few here? I would be alarmed if people thought it was a good idea to make speed and course changes without doing a THOROUGH check of ones surroundings.

How is this still a discussion??
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:06 AM   #66
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I guess you guys just don't get it.....

The OP (GBG) was wrong in that he didn't see the other boat.... nobody on his boat warned him either. FAILURE TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT. Her husband should have seen the Stingray closing on his boat.... plain and simple. The Stingray passing within 9' of GBG while perfectly acceptable on the ocean is not acceptable on the inland waterways of NH (150' rule). However, GBG did not slow down or change course.... Had he turned into the path of the Stingray, it would be the same as Laser... Laser by his own story unfortunately did.

APS...

I agree that the Formula could have passed to port... and if he did we wouldn't have this lively debate. But the Formula didn't and why he didn't I don't know. But either way it does not absolve Laser for FAILING TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT.

Yes, the Formula was the GIVE WAY boat, and as such he acted accordingly. The collision was avoided and nobody got hurt. He slowed and passed safely behind and to port of Laser who had turned starboard into his path.

I maintain that HAD LASER SEEN THE FORMULA (You know KEPT A PROPER LOOKOUT) He being a reasonable guy would not have deliberately slowed and turned into the path of the Formula... He didn't "Check his 6" or if he did he did so quickly and carelessly.

Bottom line is HE DIDNT SEE THE FORMULA BEFORE HE SLOWED AND CHANGED HIS COURSE.

I don't know if the Formula driver is member of the forum. Maybe he is and is just keeping his mouth shut so to speak. I think that here is some real hatred towards people who own faster or bigger boats on this forum. Its easy to blame the bigger guy, or the faster guy when in fact sometimes its the little guys fault.

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Old 09-16-2013, 08:13 AM   #67
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"Why would any sane captain do that?"
So, now Laser is insane? LOL
C'mon, people, lighten up. We only have the "facts" from one side. And even those probably don't tell the whole story as he saw it.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:19 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand View Post
"Why would any sane captain do that?"
So, now Laser is insane? LOL
C'mon, people, lighten up. We only have the "facts" from one side. And even those probably don't tell the whole story as he saw it.
Phantom, why are you stirring the pot? I am making a point to the contrary. I am sure lp is SANE. My point is that he was negligent in his failure to keep watch. He did not deliberately steer into the path of the Formula. Of course he wouldn't do that. He did it because he had a temporary lapse in judgement and assumed that there were no boats behind him because 5 minutes earlier there were not.

Please don't troll.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:27 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by hazelnut View Post
Phantom, why are you stirring the pot? I am making a point to the contrary. I am sure lp is SANE. My point is that he was negligent in his failure to keep watch. He did not deliberately steer into the path of the Formula. Of course he wouldn't do that. He did it because he had a temporary lapse in judgement and assumed that there were no boats behind him because 5 minutes earlier there were not.

Please don't troll.
You do not have the facts to make the accusation that LP is negligent.
My post was not to stir the pot, but ask that everybody lighten up a bit.
And now you accuse me of being a troll?
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:39 AM   #70
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You do not have the facts to make the accusation that LP is negligent.
My post was not to stir the pot, but ask that everybody lighten up a bit.
And now you accuse me of being a troll?
Ugh!

Phantom. Read the posts carefully. lp turned into the path of the Formula. He himself said that here:

I "Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30. My guess is he was passing me on the right and wasn't looking."

I am sure lp is sane. He wouldn't have ever decided to make the move if he saw the boat correct? How much evidence do I need. Either he deliberately turned into the path of the boat or he accidentally did. I am going to assume that he accidentally did. Because to assume that he deliberately steered his vessel into the path of the formula then... well... then we would have to play the sanity card. lol So if we can ALL ASSUME that he accidentally steered into the path of the Formula then he is guilty of failure to keep a proper lookout. This is NO BIG DEAL here people. I am sure as &*%$ that I have done that and have committed many errors in my years of boating.

Phantom, it was a troll post. You sir are not a troll. I enjoy your restaurant reviews. The post itself twisted the meaning of my words in a troll like fashion. No hard feelings.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:46 AM   #71
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Laser did show up here with an agenda and with a major attitude, as depicted by his/her choice of language. It is hard for me to be sympathetic when someone makes this grand booming entrance, third post, expecting support but appears to be in the wrong. I think many people had two reactions. (1) Why the language and tone? (2) Wait a minute, Laser seems to be in the wrong by his/her own description.

I expect that if laser posted with a civil tone and appropriate language, he/she would have been treated differently.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:52 AM   #72
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So let's suppose in this example there was a few witnesses nearby and God forbid boat A (being passed) was run over by boat B (the boat doing the passing). (I purposely did not use laser and formula to describe the boats because boat brands is the last thing I'm thinking about here and I'm a little disturbed it was even brought up.) So again, let's suppose the captain is alone in boat a and is killed in the crash, Boat b has minor injuries. A forensic team determines that Boat B was passing boat A, no one knows if Boat A was maintaining proper lookout or not, who do you think would be found responsible for the crash??
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:52 AM   #73
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..and gilly. Please tell me how we are supposed to interpret this?

"..Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination"

Was the entire cruise 5 minutes?

I don't see how anyone could read this any other way than he was cruising for 5 minutes after he had been looking behind his vessel. He ASSUMED in that 5 minute period that nobody could have closed in on him as fast as the Formula did. Now we all know assumptions in boating can lead to disaster. Maybe the Formula was speeding? Who knows. Also I am not even calling out lp for taking a 5 minute break from checking his stern. No big deal at all. Where I and a few others are taking issue is the fact that lp turned his vessel and changed speed BEFORE looking astern to see if by chance there was a vessel approaching. Why is this an issue with a few here? I would be alarmed if people thought it was a good idea to make speed and course changes without doing a THOROUGH check of ones surroundings.

How is this still a discussion??
Yeah, I read it that his cruise took 5 minutes and he was looking around during the journey. I don't understand how you can't acknowledge that possibility. YOU are doing a lot of assuming in your argument, including thinking that I don't hold laserp responsible at all. I jumped into the discussion BECAUSE of all the assumptions being made.

I've done a lot of technical writing in the past, so I know one of the biggest errors that can be made is assuming you know exactly what the original writer meant. You need to ask for clarification, which we won't get now due to the responses he received. And did you notice the title of this thread? Guess it's okay to call someone an idiot.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:12 AM   #74
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So then laserp deliberately turned into the path of the formula?

I am baffled here. Gilly and ITD. I am not addressing the op or anything else. My point all along has been that laserp came on to the forum calling someone else an a##hole and then illustrated a story that CLEARLY shows that he steered his vessel towards an overtaking vessel. No assumptions necessary here. That is a fact that lp himself stated. So NO BIG DEAL. I take issue with his attitude in his op. He blamed the other captain entirely. THEY WERE BOTH WRONG. What is your crusade on this one? Are you mad that I am not calling out Greens Basin Girl? When I read this thread and got involved in this discussion I was irritated by lp's story more than GBG's story. Would you like me to go back and pick her story apart? Would it then be ok and we could call a truce.

No matter how you read this, being a technical writer, or a Masters Degree holder (me), how can you not see the fact that lp made a navigational error and steered INTO the path of another vessel. The Formula could have been DEAD wrong in that they themselves did not leave enough room. All I know is that I have to assume that lp is a sane and maybe even a FANTASTIC captain with YEARS of experience. Heck he may be one of the better boaters on the lake. Unfortunately HE made an error in failing to keep proper lookout. (FACT NOT OPINION) unless we play the "sane" card lol, as I said. So he messed up. Whoops.... no biggie.

So he steered into the path of the overtaking vessel,

Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30.

Then made a move to recover:

I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left. Missed me by 20ft... AT NIGHT!!

lp came on this forum and called another boater an A##hole. His words not mine. He then illustrated a story that calls into question his skills as a captain. It's pretty plain and simple. I don't know either captain. The Formula captain is not held blameless in this scenario. And that is all this is, a scenario.


ITD to your point, there would have been an extensive investigation and honestly I do not know what the outcome would be. If alcohol was involved we all know what the outcome would be. However, if lp told the story to the police as he did here it would be quite interesting to say the least as to what the outcome would be. Can we all just say thank god that didn't happen.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:17 AM   #75
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This past Sunday we were enjoying a nice day out in our pontoon boat. We had lunch in Wolfeboro and we were heading back to Green's Basin. As we were traveling past Parker Island a boatful of people drove past us in their 18-20 foot Stingray. They were within 9 feet of our boat. After they passed us they cut back right in front of us and then proceeded to go on the wrong side of a nearby buoy. My husband( who was driving the boat) didn't even see them. This could have resulted in a terrible boating accident. I don't understand how people can be such idiots. I wish people like this would be caught when they are driving so erratically.
GBG, your husband failed to keep a proper lookout if he did not see the Stingray.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:17 AM   #76
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I guess you guys just don't get it.....

The OP (GBG) was wrong in that he didn't see the other boat.... nobody on his boat warned him either. FAILURE TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT. Her husband should have seen the Stingray closing on his boat.... plain and simple. The Stingray passing within 9' of GBG while perfectly acceptable on the ocean is not acceptable on the inland waterways of NH (150' rule). However, GBG did not slow down or change course.... Had he turned into the path of the Stingray, it would be the same as Laser... Laser by his own story unfortunately did.

APS...

I agree that the Formula could have passed to port... and if he did we wouldn't have this lively debate. But the Formula didn't and why he didn't I don't know. But either way it does not absolve Laser for FAILING TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT.

Yes, the Formula was the GIVE WAY boat, and as such he acted accordingly. The collision was avoided and nobody got hurt. He slowed and passed safely behind and to port of Laser who had turned starboard into his path.

I maintain that HAD LASER SEEN THE FORMULA (You know KEPT A PROPER LOOKOUT) He being a reasonable guy would not have deliberately slowed and turned into the path of the Formula... He didn't "Check his 6" or if he did he did so quickly and carelessly.

Bottom line is HE DIDNT SEE THE FORMULA BEFORE HE SLOWED AND CHANGED HIS COURSE.

I don't know if the Formula driver is member of the forum. Maybe he is and is just keeping his mouth shut so to speak. I think that here is some real hatred towards people who own faster or bigger boats on this forum. Its easy to blame the bigger guy, or the faster guy when in fact sometimes its the little guys fault.

Woodsy
I get your argument. Please try to understand mine.

There are a lot of assumptions being made here, so I'll throw in a few of my own. The Formula was behind laserp the whole time, but since it was dark and there was a lot of light pollution on shore behind the Formula, laserp missed him on several occasions. Then he looked and made his turn simultaneously, and that's when he finally saw the Formula.

So here's my argument. We don't know all of the facts, so let's stop assuming we do. And let's stop assuming we know the intent of people when they make a post. If I do that, then I'll assume you and hazelnut are stirring the pot because you both keep implying that other posters don't get it, when in reality, you both are not comprehending what people like chaselady and myself are saying.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:37 AM   #77
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So then laserp deliberately turned into the path of the formula?

I am baffled here. Gilly and ITD. I am not addressing the op or anything else. My point all along has been that laserp came on to the forum calling someone else an a##hole and then illustrated a story that CLEARLY shows that he steered his vessel towards an overtaking vessel. No assumptions necessary here. That is a fact that lp himself stated. So NO BIG DEAL. I take issue with his attitude in his op. He blamed the other captain entirely. THEY WERE BOTH WRONG. What is your crusade on this one? Are you mad that I am not calling out Greens Basin Girl? When I read this thread and got involved in this discussion I was irritated by lp's story more than GBG's story. Would you like me to go back and pick her story apart? Would it then be ok and we could call a truce.

No matter how you read this, being a technical writer, or a Masters Degree holder (me), how can you not see the fact that lp made a navigational error and steered INTO the path of another vessel. The Formula could have been DEAD wrong in that they themselves did not leave enough room. All I know is that I have to assume that lp is a sane and maybe even a FANTASTIC captain with YEARS of experience. Heck he may be one of the better boaters on the lake. Unfortunately HE made an error in failing to keep proper lookout. (FACT NOT OPINION) unless we play the "sane" card lol, as I said. So he messed up. Whoops.... no biggie.

So he steered into the path of the overtaking vessel,

Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30.

Then made a move to recover:

I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left. Missed me by 20ft... AT NIGHT!!

lp came on this forum and called another boater an A##hole. His words not mine. He then illustrated a story that calls into question his skills as a captain. It's pretty plain and simple. I don't know either captain. The Formula captain is not held blameless in this scenario. And that is all this is, a scenario.


ITD to your point, there would have been an extensive investigation and honestly I do not know what the outcome would be. If alcohol was involved we all know what the outcome would be. However, if lp told the story to the police as he did here it would be quite interesting to say the least as to what the outcome would be. Can we all just say thank god that didn't happen.
Holy cow, how can you still not see what I am saying when I have stated explicitly that I didn't hold laserp unaccountable in his actions. He probably is. But note how I said "probably. " The problem is you are making a lot of assumptions and then stating your conclusion as fact. You argue that laserp said it himself, giving snippets which can be interpreted a couple of ways, but stating your interpretation is the correct one. My biggest issue is with you stating AS A FACT that he didn't look behind his boat for 5 minutes. HE NEVER SAID THAT...THAT'S YOUR READ ON IT.

I brought up my tech writing past to illustrate the importance of looking at what you're reading from all angles so that if it is ambiguous in any way, you need to get clarification before coming to a conclusion. I am explaining my method of analysis, not getting into a pissing contest, if that's what you assume I was doing.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:37 AM   #78
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So let's suppose in this example there was a few witnesses nearby and God forbid boat A (being passed) was run over by boat B (the boat doing the passing). (I purposely did not use laser and formula to describe the boats because boat brands is the last thing I'm thinking about here and I'm a little disturbed it was even brought up.) So again, let's suppose the captain is alone in boat a and is killed in the crash, Boat b has minor injuries. A forensic team determines that Boat B was passing boat A, no one knows if Boat A was maintaining proper lookout or not, who do you think would be found responsible for the crash??
That's up to the Forensics team. We would only have Boat B's side of the story. Assuming Boat B was being truthful in his description of the incident, and the reconstruction team did their homework... (Boat B's story is plausible) my guess would be BOTH parties would be to blame. Perhaps with differing levels. Boat A would be partially to blame - Failing To Keep a Proper Lookout and turning into the path of the Boat B. Boat B would be partially to blame - Failure to Keep a Proper Distance not taking the appropriate evasive action.

The way the rules are written for the Sea, there usually requires a screw-up by BOTH vessels for a vessel on vessel accident to occur. In the instance we have been debating, Boat B did in fact have enough distance as there was no collision.

Here is a link to a video in which a USCG boat runs over a small runabout in broad daylight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0lR5hPJkQc

Both are at fault here! The small speedboat has right of way and is the Stand On vessel. The USCG boat is the GIVE WAY vessel. In the video you can clearly hear there are no sirens or horns blaring on the USCG vessel. Just a loudhailer that you cannot hear in the video.

The small boat didn't see the USCG boat.. and the USCG boat didn't GIVE WAY.


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Old 09-16-2013, 09:48 AM   #79
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Holy cow, how can you still not see what I am saying when I have stated explicitly that I didn't hold laserp unaccountable in his actions. He probably is. But note how I said "probably. " The problem is you are making a lot of assumptions and then stating your conclusion as fact. You argue that laserp said it himself, giving snippets which can be interpreted a couple of ways, but stating your interpretation is the correct one. My biggest issue is with you stating AS A FACT that he didn't look behind his boat for 5 minutes. HE NEVER SAID THAT...THAT'S YOUR READ ON IT.

I brought up my tech writing past to illustrate the importance of looking at what you're reading from all angles so that if it is ambiguous in any way, you need to get clarification before coming to a conclusion. I am explaining my method of analysis, not getting into a pissing contest, if that's what you assume I was doing.

So holy cow yourself. My point is simple. A reasonable person can deduce from the statement that lp made a little mistake. NO BIG DEAL. Relax about it. My bigger point is that his post was OFFENSIVE when he himself was PROBABLY, and IMO based in MANY years of boating, ACTUALLY at fault himself. Formula was wrong lp was wrong.

He called the other boater an A##HOLE AND THEN:

The lake is full of morons on the weekend, with boats that they buy to compensate for their manhood. Can't handle them.

All extremely offensive. Where is the outrage?
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:55 AM   #80
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"The way the rules are written for the Sea, there usually requires a screw-up by BOTH vessels for a vessel on vessel accident to occur. In the instance we have been debating, Boat B did in fact have enough distance as there was no collision."

Missing the overtaken boat by a mere 20' is not indicative of having provided enough distance. That's too darn close and falls in the realm of a luck close call.

My point in this thread all along has been that the overtaking vessel did not provide enough distance between the two boats.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:58 AM   #81
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Price and you are probably correct. I think many of us that have taken up issue with this is that lp came on and insulted the other boater and then insulted a class of boaters. lp himself made an error in navigation by his own admission. Although some seem to fail to grasp that concept. Anyway, you are most very likely correct that the captain of the Formula messed up and should have given much more space than he did. Especially at night.
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:03 AM   #82
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I get your argument. Please try to understand mine.

There are a lot of assumptions being made here, so I'll throw in a few of my own. The Formula was behind laserp the whole time, but since it was dark and there was a lot of light pollution on shore behind the Formula, laserp missed him on several occasions. Then he looked and made his turn simultaneously, and that's when he finally saw the Formula.

So here's my argument. We don't know all of the facts, so let's stop assuming we do. And let's stop assuming we know the intent of people when they make a post. If I do that, then I'll assume you and hazelnut are stirring the pot because you both keep implying that other posters don't get it, when in reality, you both are not comprehending what people like chaselady and myself are saying.
I am not making any assumptions.... I am taking Laser's story as told as fact. In what was his second or third post he called somebody an ***hole and insulted their manhood while telling a story that by his own words put him at fault for bad seamanship. Its not personal. It bothers me that people are quick to blame the Formula when in fact Laser is the guilty party.

We don't have the story from the Formula. I am not harping on the 5 minutes part of Laser's story.. quite frankly I don't think it matters. What matters is that Laser did not see the Formula prior to making a course change (both speed and direction) that put him and the Formula both in danger. That is the definition of FAILURE TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT! If your assumption is correct, and Laser looked quickly AS he was slowing and turning he is STILL guilty of FAILURE TO KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT.

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Old 09-16-2013, 10:24 AM   #83
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You know, I was trying to give people of an idea of the distance covered in Five minutes... which should have been the end of all this... Because the bottom line is if LaserP truly waited five minutes after checking 360 degrees around him, then he traveled 1.9 miles... durring which time, a boat directly behind him travel only 7 mph faster would have traveled 2.5 miles to be in roughly the same location... that means that at the last 360 degree check the Formula was more then 1/2 a mile behind him... Also likely is that when laserP last did a 360 degree check, is that the formula was not right behind him, but vectoring in from another direction, approaching from the rear. And my have not been picked up in his scan.

Laserp made the conscious decision to post about his incident... yes maybe commiserating with GBG..... So in my mind, the feed back here is warranted. He of course slammed the Formula Driver pretty hard.

No one, who has posted in the thread has slammed LaserP..... we have all simply posted, in response to the information that was given. And noted on the situation that possibly LaserP needed to think through his actions a bit more, and that possibly he had some blame in the situation...

No one here is perfect, nor have I ever heard anyone claim to be perfect. However we all view things uniquely...... Those of us that understand the mathematics of the situation, have simply posted, that hey 5 minutes is a long time, and a lot of ground and situation changes did take place. And the bottom line is to keep a proper look out, you have to be aware of your situational surrounding more often then every five minutes...

Quite often I find people jumping to conclusions, and as is human nature, we don't want to think we are wrong. Part of whats wrong in today's society is that people don't want to take the time to self reflect, and re-think there actions, realizing that they may have had some blame....

Last what if laserp was just trying to stir the pot? he has very few posts, and hasn't bothered to chime back in........I guess he succeeded if that is what he was trying to do..
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:55 AM   #84
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Those of us that understand the mathematics of the situation, have simply posted, that hey 5 minutes is a long time, and a lot of ground and situation changes did take place. And the bottom line is to keep a proper look out, you have to be aware of your situational surrounding more often then every five minutes...
Umm, BS and MS in Physics here, so I get the mathematics. That's not my argument (and how insulting that you assume I don't get the math). My argument is with the assumption that laserp didn't look behind his boat for 5 minutes. Laserp never stated that; people are parsing two separate sentences to put words in his mouth. Yes, his writing is unclear, but why assume what you're assuming? Why not ask him for clarification? Why not try to see that he was doing all that looking around in the 5 minutes it took to reach his destination? I know I don't like it when people try to twist my words into something I didn't say. I'll stick around and call you on it. Perhaps laserp didn't feel like bothering.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:24 AM   #85
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I am not making any assumptions.... I am taking Laser's story as told as fact. In what was his second or third post he called somebody an ***hole and insulted their manhood while telling a story that by his own words put him at fault for bad seamanship. Its not personal. It bothers me that people are quick to blame the Formula when in fact Laser is the guilty party.
I completely agree that by laserp's own description of slowing and turning, and then seeing the Formula that he did not maintain a proper watch. But you do assume the distance between the two was 150' or so, otherwise you assume there would have been a collision. You yourself state it's debatable. I guess the issue that I'm having with your point is that you seem to absolve the Formula of any wrongdoing. If I am incorrect I apologize.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:24 AM   #86
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Umm, BS and MS in Physics here, so I get the mathematics. That's not my argument (and how insulting that you assume I don't get the math). My argument is with the assumption that laserp didn't look behind his boat for 5 minutes. Laserp never stated that; people are parsing two separate sentences to put words in his mouth. Yes, his writing is unclear, but why assume what you're assuming? Why not ask him for clarification? Why not try to see that he was doing all that looking around in the 5 minutes it took to reach his destination? I know I don't like it when people try to twist my words into something I didn't say. I'll stick around and call you on it. Perhaps laserp didn't feel like bothering.
gilly it really seems as though you are taking this all so personally. Answer this question. Do you think, based on lp's statement, that there is a higher than normal probability that laserp made an error and failed to keep a proper lookout? If you do not think that there is a higher than normal probability then explain laserp's statement to me... this one:

Started to pull off plain and pull to the right. Turned around and this guy was 20ft from me doing at least 30.

By his own admission he appears to be surprised that a boat was so close to him and by his own admission laserp then had to take evasive action:

I hit the throttle and cut hard right and fortunately he cut hard left.

Explain to me your theoretical probabilities on this one. laserp appear to be surprised to see a boat and then had to make an evasive maneuver to avoid a collision. Why are you taking this all so personally. LIFORRELAXIN wasn't calling you out specifically and neither am I. What is it that we are doing that is so offensive to you. I am not bashing lp. What I am doing is taking issue with his post that included name calling and derogatory statements towards a boater while he himself made an error in the situation. I am not saying lp is completely to blame. I am merely pointing out that lp has owns some blame in this situation. I am not PARSING sentences btw. I am a very well educated person myself. I have read the post with your theories in mind, do the same with my theories in your head. The probability that lp did NOT look behind him based on his statements is off the charts high. He posted as if he didn't consider that was the law. Regardless of how one reads his post it is very clear that lp made a little mistake. NO BIG DEAL. This isn't personal, stop making it personal.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:29 AM   #87
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GG,

If you get the math, then that is great... By no means was my post call you or anyone else out personally... now if you decided to take it personally then I can't do anything about that...

Now, I decided to re-read laserp post... and let me say this... His actions after discovering the formula coming up from behind, only made a bad situation worse. And Luckily didn't end up in an accident. He slowed down and turned right, then noticed a boat coming from the stern on the right, and chose to continue to turn right, and powered back up? hummmm

What if the formula saw him turn right and slow down, and headed further right to clear him? Figuring it was safer to continue on his course and avoid having to cut back over the wake. Or maybe powering back up saved Laserp's bacon... I don't know... maybe it wasn't as close as he tries to make it out.. I don't know.... Maybe Maybe Maybe, and what if could go on all day...

The bottom line is he failed to keep a constant look out, was caught by surprise, and then felt he had no blame in situation...


Me stands by my closing of my last post...

Last what if laserp was just trying to stir the pot? he has very few posts, and hasn't bothered to chime back in........I guess he succeeded if that is what he was trying to do..

There are a number of people with a mindset that performance boaters are the enemy..... and do anything to put undo blame on them...

Let me say this, I am not a performance boater, nor do I own one.... I can only go off of what was posted here... what was posted here, tells me that the poster, had blame in the situation... how much, is hard to tell with out being there... I have been boating all my life, and ended up in many bad situations... you can take two avenues after a bad situation:

1-- Assume you had no blame and the other guy was totally at fault.

2-- look at your actions, decide where you could have done things differently, and avoid the potential situation next time.

All anyone her has tried to do, was look at the situation constructively... and point out how things could have been done differently...
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:44 AM   #88
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So holy cow yourself. My point is simple. A reasonable person can deduce from the statement that lp made a little mistake. NO BIG DEAL. Relax about it. My bigger point is that his post was OFFENSIVE when he himself was PROBABLY, and IMO based in MANY years of boating, ACTUALLY at fault himself. Formula was wrong lp was wrong.

He called the other boater an A##HOLE AND THEN:

The lake is full of morons on the weekend, with boats that they buy to compensate for their manhood. Can't handle them.

All extremely offensive. Where is the outrage?
So it's not okay to call someone an %$^hole, but it is okay to call them unreasonable. Or to make this statement:

"gilly,

It has nothing to do with being a KNOW it all. The man said in his own words that DIRECT QUOTE:

He "..Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination"

If you can't read that as, he waited 5 minutes before looking behind his vessel or the fact that he didn't state that he checked behind his vessel before making the maneuver then ummmm wow... is all I can say."


Okay, so you can't read that as, he looked behind his boat many times during the 5 minutes it took to reach his destination? Do you actually think he would come on here and say he didn't look behind for 5 minutes? Does that actually bolster his case? No, it doesn't.

I'm outraged that you won't admit you could be reading the whole 5 minute thing wrong. I'm outraged that when someone's opinion is different from yours, you make snide comments. Okay, I'm not really outraged, but one minute you say it's no big deal that he nearly caused a collision because he didn't keep a proper watch, and then you want me to be outraged by his language. Language doesn't outrage me unless it's not telling the truth. But the passive-aggressive stuff does tend to drive me nuts.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:57 AM   #89
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Default time for a thread lockdown.

this thread has gotten way out of control. Time to end it with a padlock!!!!
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:59 AM   #90
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So it's not okay to call someone an %$^hole, but it is okay to call them unreasonable. Or to make this statement:

"gilly,

It has nothing to do with being a KNOW it all. The man said in his own words that DIRECT QUOTE:

He "..Looked behind me many times and there was no boat within 500 yards. I may have been cruising for 5 minutes when I was getting to my destination"

If you can't read that as, he waited 5 minutes before looking behind his vessel or the fact that he didn't state that he checked behind his vessel before making the maneuver then ummmm wow... is all I can say."


Okay, so you can't read that as, he looked behind his boat many times during the 5 minutes it took to reach his destination? Do you actually think he would come on here and say he didn't look behind for 5 minutes? Does that actually bolster his case? No, it doesn't.

I'm outraged that you won't admit you could be reading the whole 5 minute thing wrong. I'm outraged that when someone's opinion is different from yours, you make snide comments. Okay, I'm not really outraged, but one minute you say it's no big deal that he nearly caused a collision because he didn't keep a proper watch, and then you want me to be outraged by his language. Language doesn't outrage me unless it's not telling the truth. But the passive-aggressive stuff does tend to drive me nuts.
I'm sorry gilly. I really think you need to step away from the keyboard. Somewhere along the way you took this way way too personally. I am not being passive aggressive nor am I being anything aggressive. You were the first one here to throw around your education and knowledge, not me. Now you're "outraged" oh wait now you're not? Relax, it's a debate about an issue. You see things one way, I see them another. IT IS NOT PERSONAL! Do you go on the internet to have a love fest and just agree with everything you read? I have to say in this instance, sorry no disrespect, that you are reaching for theories. I feel as though you are letting things cloud your judgement on this one. lp MADE A MISTAKE. That is the central issue. Not whether or not I am more educated than you or you are smarter than all of us. Forget about the 5 minutes, before the maneuver, he made a navigational move into the path of another boat. THAT IS ALL WE NEED TO KNOW!!! Yes I am really really perplexed that you can't see that simple fact that lp turned into another boats path and HE ADMITTED IT! lol I guess I give up on this one. Take a breath and relax. It's ok to debate people. You have your theory, I have mine. Enjoy the day.
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:16 PM   #91
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I completely agree that by laserp's own description of slowing and turning, and then seeing the Formula that he did not maintain a proper watch. But you do assume the distance between the two was 150' or so, otherwise you assume there would have been a collision. You yourself state it's debatable. I guess the issue that I'm having with your point is that you seem to absolve the Formula of any wrongdoing. If I am incorrect I apologize.
Just explaining my math....

I am basing my assumption that the distance was approximately 150' or greater based on Lasers story...

1. That the Formula was 30 feet long. (That's the length Laser gave) So 150' is approximately 5 boat lengths. A 30' Formula depending on model weighs in somewhere between 9000 & 10000+ lbs.

2. The closing speeds.... Distance/Time. According to Laser the Formula was traveling at 30 MPH or 44 FPS (3.4 seconds to cover 150')
Initially Laser was traveling at 23 MPH or 33.7 FPS so we had a closure rate of only 7 MPH or 10.2 FPS.... no big deal.

BUT.... Laser slowed down and came off plane and turned to starboard crossing into the path of the Formula that he did not see. So now the closure rate jumps to whatever speed the Formula (that had already committed to overtaking Laser) was traveling. Per Laser's story 30 MPH or 44 FPS. This gives the Formula (an approximately 10,000lb boat) 3.4 seconds to avoid a collision. Most people have a reaction time of .3 seconds. At night I am sure its probably a little more especially when the Formula would not know of a course change by Laser until he saw his green bow light (Laser would have turned close to 22.5 degrees before the light would be shown). But using the easy math... the Formula had approximately 3.1 seconds to decide on a course of action, slow, change course to port and pass 20' to the rear of Laser's boat even as Laser tightened his turn to starboard into the path of the Formula.

3.1 seconds to miss by 20 feet.... In a 30' approximately 10,000lb boat. If there was less than 150' there probably would have been a collision.

Obviously we can debate hundreds of variables, but on the surface I stand by my calcs!

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Old 09-16-2013, 02:03 PM   #92
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Just explaining my math....

I am basing my assumption that the distance was approximately 150' or greater based on Lasers story...

1. That the Formula was 30 feet long. (That's the length Laser gave) So 150' is approximately 5 boat lengths. A 30' Formula depending on model weighs in somewhere between 9000 & 10000+ lbs.

2. The closing speeds.... Distance/Time. According to Laser the Formula was traveling at 30 MPH or 44 FPS (3.4 seconds to cover 150')
Initially Laser was traveling at 23 MPH or 33.7 FPS so we had a closure rate of only 7 MPH or 10.2 FPS.... no big deal.

BUT.... Laser slowed down and came off plane and turned to starboard crossing into the path of the Formula that he did not see. So now the closure rate jumps to whatever speed the Formula (that had already committed to overtaking Laser) was traveling. Per Laser's story 30 MPH or 44 FPS. This gives the Formula (an approximately 10,000lb boat) 3.4 seconds to avoid a collision. Most people have a reaction time of .3 seconds. At night I am sure its probably a little more especially when the Formula would not know of a course change by Laser until he saw his green bow light (Laser would have turned close to 22.5 degrees before the light would be shown). But using the easy math... the Formula had approximately 3.1 seconds to decide on a course of action, slow, change course to port and pass 20' to the rear of Laser's boat even as Laser tightened his turn to starboard into the path of the Formula.

3.1 seconds to miss by 20 feet.... In a 30' approximately 10,000lb boat. If there was less than 150' there probably would have been a collision.

Obviously we can debate hundreds of variables, but on the surface I stand by my calcs!

Woodsy
Well as you say, we can debate hundreds of variables. You're making assumptions which I'm uncomfortable with.
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:11 PM   #93
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I'm sorry gilly. I really think you need to step away from the keyboard. Somewhere along the way you took this way way too personally. I am not being passive aggressive nor am I being anything aggressive. You were the first one here to throw around your education and knowledge, not me. Now you're "outraged" oh wait now you're not? Relax, it's a debate about an issue. You see things one way, I see them another. IT IS NOT PERSONAL! Do you go on the internet to have a love fest and just agree with everything you read? I have to say in this instance, sorry no disrespect, that you are reaching for theories. I feel as though you are letting things cloud your judgement on this one. lp MADE A MISTAKE. That is the central issue. Not whether or not I am more educated than you or you are smarter than all of us. Forget about the 5 minutes, before the maneuver, he made a navigational move into the path of another boat. THAT IS ALL WE NEED TO KNOW!!! Yes I am really really perplexed that you can't see that simple fact that lp turned into another boats path and HE ADMITTED IT! lol I guess I give up on this one. Take a breath and relax. It's ok to debate people. You have your theory, I have mine. Enjoy the day.
Pot, kettle, black. You're obviously not reading what I wrote for comprehension.
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:21 PM   #94
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Well as you say, we can debate hundreds of variables. You're making assumptions which I'm uncomfortable with.
What is uncomfortable? Using Laser's story as a basic math problem, The Formula missed by 20'... The numbers are pretty clear. I mean sure there is +/- a few feet in there. I explained the distance/time problem pretty clearly.

If you are saying the Formula was closer than 150' then he had even LESS time than 3.1 seconds to react.... making the driver of the Formula pretty amazing that he avoided a collision.

Please feel free to refute my math!

Don't get me wrong, I get that missing by 20' is a little scary. BUT that doesn't mean that person who missed was in the wrong.

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Old 09-16-2013, 03:41 PM   #95
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Pot, kettle, black. You're obviously not reading what I wrote for comprehension.
For the pot to be calling the kettle black you would be making the hugely wrong assumption that I am taking any of this personal, which I am not. I find this to be a fantastically fun debate on a subject that is very very interesting.

I believe that no matter what, the 5 minutes, the 20 feet the 150 feet the dark night sky, the size of the boats, whatever, laserp steered his vessel into the path of an overtaking vessel. That is the one irrefutable fact that nobody will ever convince me otherwise. Even if the Formula was doing 35, 40, 45 MPH and breaking a whole slew of laws, laserp didn't see the boat ( again assuming he is a sane captain ) and he turned into the path of the Formula. So like I said, my one and only point in all of this is that laserp called another driver an a##hole and then proceeded to call his manhood into question, all while illustrating that he made a mistake himself.

It's been fun and interesting discussing this. VERY eye opening too.
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:27 PM   #96
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What is uncomfortable? Using Laser's story as a basic math problem, The Formula missed by 20'... The numbers are pretty clear. I mean sure there is +/- a few feet in there. I explained the distance/time problem pretty clearly.

If you are saying the Formula was closer than 150' then he had even LESS time than 3.1 seconds to react.... making the driver of the Formula pretty amazing that he avoided a collision.

snip

Woodsy
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That's where you and I differ greatly, when you consider the time delay to decide there is a problem, the time decide how to correct, the time it takes to turn the wheel to initiate a direction change and the latency time between a control input and boat reaction, the Formula was way to close for the speed and conditions. Had he maintained a greater distance during his pass all of your other points would be moot as he never would have gotten so close. The Formula driver had complete power to drive safer and pass in a way that this could have never happened. If he didn't learn his lesson this time then we may be reading about him someday. Ditto for lasep as there are many boat drivers like the Formula guy and his chance of one of them getting him is much higher if he turns before he looks.
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:47 PM   #97
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ITD...

Had the Formula passed to port the point would be moot. Had Laser looked and seen the Formula the point would be moot. Had Laser not turned the point would be moot.

How much distance is required? The law says 150'...

Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of as much room as possible. But I still fail to see how the Formula acted improperly. There was enough (just enough) for the Formula to maneuver and avoid Laser. The math I did pointed to a separation distance right around 150'. It could have been greater or less. Either way it was definitely close. BUT without the Formula's side of the story and the numbers being what they are (From Laser) I have a hard time saying the guy in Formula did anything wrong when we have Laser admitting to violating 2 laws....

Woodsy
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:57 PM   #98
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Default I'll settle this little tempest in a teapot for ya...

Y'all know me. Know how I earn a livin'. I'll settle this debate for you, but it ain't gonna be easy. Bad debate. Not like going down the pond chasin' bluegills and tommycods. This debate, swallow you whole. Little shakin', little tenderizin', an' down you go. And we gotta do it quick, that'll bring back your other forum readers, put all your businesses on a payin' basis. But it's not gonna be pleasant. I value my neck a lot more than three thousand bucks, chief.

I'll analyze it for three, but I'll answer it and settle it, for ten. But you've gotta make up your minds and ante up. If you want to play it cheap, you can go round and round the whole winter. I don't want no volunteers, I don't want no mates, there's just too many captains on this lake. $10,000 for me by myself. For that you get the head, the tail, the whole damn answer.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:04 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
ITD...

Had the Formula passed to port the point would be moot. Had Laser looked and seen the Formula the point would be moot. Had Laser not turned the point would be moot.

How much distance is required? The law says 150'...

Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of as much room as possible. But I still fail to see how the Formula acted improperly. There was enough (just enough) for the Formula to maneuver and avoid Laser. The math I did pointed to a separation distance right around 150'. It could have been greater or less. Either way it was definitely close. BUT without the Formula's side of the story and the numbers being what they are (From Laser) I have a hard time saying the guy in Formula did anything wrong when we have Laser admitting to violating 2 laws....

Woodsy
Two laws??? I don't think so, but it doesn't matter and we are not going to agree on these points, as I said, I'll be watching for those who think that the Formula guy had no fault in this. You have also ignored the fact the laserp said he was 150 feet from a mooring field and the Formula was going to pass between Laserp and the field, that is definitely not legal and breaks the 150 foot law twice....

So I don't agree with laserp making fun of formula owners' junk, and I think laserp probably was as irate as the formula guy in their confrontation after the near miss, but I get the feeling you are defending this guy because of the boat he drives.....
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:14 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Capt. Quint View Post
Y'all know me. Know how I earn a livin'. I'll settle this debate for you, but it ain't gonna be easy. Bad debate. Not like going down the pond chasin' bluegills and tommycods. This debate, swallow you whole. Little shakin', little tenderizin', an' down you go. And we gotta do it quick, that'll bring back your other forum readers, put all your businesses on a payin' basis. But it's not gonna be pleasant. I value my neck a lot more than three thousand bucks, chief.

I'll analyze it for three, but I'll answer it and settle it, for ten. But you've gotta make up your minds and ante up. If you want to play it cheap, you can go round and round the whole winter. I don't want no volunteers, I don't want no mates, there's just too many captains on this lake. $10,000 for me by myself. For that you get the head, the tail, the whole damn answer.
There once was a man named Quint,
To the heart of the argument he wint
He said for a price,
He’d settle it nice,
But the answer will cost you a mint.

Last edited by ITD; 09-16-2013 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Better rhyme....
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