Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Lake Issues > Boating Issues
Home Forums Gallery Blogs YouTube Channel Classifieds Links Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2013, 05:37 AM   #1
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,496
Thanks: 933
Thanked 434 Times in 318 Posts
Default Poker Run PFD Use

I don't know if participants are required to wear PFDs at those speeds; however, when I found a brand-new PFD floating in The Broads, I adopted it.

Distressing at the time—even though new—is that it weighed about twelve pounds due to water absorption.

Later, I dismantled my old PFD to see what constituted "flotation", and it's the same stuff that you could rip in half with your bare hands.

• Note that these off-the-shelf PFDs are not rated for a Poker Run's maximum speeds—nor for impact.

Pics:

Attached Images
 
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 04:02 PM   #2
VitaBene
Senior Member
 
VitaBene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 3,122
Thanks: 1,250
Thanked 1,375 Times in 688 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
I don't know if participants are required to wear PFDs at those speeds; however, when I found a brand-new PFD floating in The Broads, I adopted it.

Distressing at the time—even though new—is that it weighed about twelve pounds due to water absorption.

Later, I dismantled my old PFD to see what constituted "flotation", and it's the same stuff that you could rip in half with your bare hands.

• Note that these off-the-shelf PFDs are not rated for a Poker Run's maximum speeds—nor for impact.

Pics:

The SL on the lake is 45, the PFD that you posted is rated for 50...
VitaBene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 05:36 PM   #3
Par Four
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Central MA
Posts: 77
Thanks: 23
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default So... I wonder what it does say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaBene View Post
The SL on the lake is 45, the PFD that you posted is rated for 50...
Curious wording on the PFD. I've never noticed it before.

Strength tested at 50mph.. Not tested for personal protection from impact.

What is a PFD strength test at 50mph?
Par Four is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 05:38 PM   #4
HellRaZoR004
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Litchfield/Gilford
Posts: 825
Thanks: 232
Thanked 224 Times in 131 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Par Four View Post
Curious wording on the PFD. I've never noticed it before.

Strength tested at 50mph.. Not tested for personal protection from impact.

What is a PFD strength test at 50mph?
Just thinking off the top of my head but perhaps strength testings shows that it won't break apart at that speed....but it won't protect your body from hitting the water at that speed.

Edit: are you asking what the actually test is? no clue
HellRaZoR004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2013, 08:33 AM   #5
AC2717
Senior Member
 
AC2717's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay
Posts: 2,121
Thanks: 577
Thanked 250 Times in 182 Posts
Default

I agree with HellRazor
I think it that it is stating it will not protect your body from impact like a bullet proof vest or falling and hitting the ground, as it is not made to do anything else but keep you a float, but if you hit the water over 50mph there is a good chance it could break apart and not do its job

my guess is someone probably sued a manufacturer back in the day because it is called a life vest and it did not save a life and it did not involve staying a float
__________________
Capt. of the "No Worries"
AC2717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-03-2013, 07:12 AM   #6
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,496
Thanks: 933
Thanked 434 Times in 318 Posts
Question Too Little Safety for Too Much HP...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaBene View Post
The SL on the lake is 45, the PFD that you posted is rated for 50...
Think that's enough "Safety" margin for an event featuring such overpowered boats—under NHMP's loose watch?



Actually, for this event, it's the non-rating for impact that matters. At SOTW Poker Run, five who were ejected lost everything they were wearing—including their PFDs.

None survived.

ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2013, 11:07 AM   #7
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,768
Thanks: 225
Thanked 628 Times in 368 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Think that's enough "Safety" margin for an event featuring such overpowered boats—under NHMP's loose watch?



Actually, for this event, it's the non-rating for impact that matters. At SOTW Poker Run, five who were ejected lost everything they were wearing—including their PFDs.

None survived.

I doubt there's a PFD out there that will save a person from every possible impact with the water. Similarly, I doubt there's any car air bags that will protect someone enough to prevent death if they hit a bridge abutment head on at 65 MPH.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 04:44 AM   #8
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,496
Thanks: 933
Thanked 434 Times in 318 Posts
Question (Photo now "scrubbed")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
I doubt there's any car air bags that will protect someone enough to prevent death if they hit a bridge abutment head on at 65 MPH.
...and not enough mattresses to save a skydiver who forgot his parachute?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
I doubt there's a PFD out there that will save a person from every possible impact with the water.
But that's hardly the point.

The first photo to come out from this event shows a boatload of passengers, with nobody wearing a PFD.
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 07:11 AM   #9
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,768
Thanks: 225
Thanked 628 Times in 368 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post

The first photo to come out from this event shows a boatload of passengers, with nobody wearing a PFD.
You mean like 99+% of adult lake boaters everywhere? Does not seem shocking to me. I have worn mine once while operating my boat on Winnipesuakee in the last 4 years and I'm not what you'd call daring (I always wear my seat belt and you should see the amount of gear I wear for a motorcycle ride).
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 08:42 AM   #10
chipj29
Senior Member
 
chipj29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bow
Posts: 1,859
Thanks: 497
Thanked 290 Times in 154 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
...
The first photo to come out from this event shows a boatload of passengers, with nobody wearing a PFD.
Is there a law, rule or regulation that requires it?
__________________
Getting ready for winter!
chipj29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 09:33 AM   #11
Woodsy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Weirs Beach
Posts: 1,617
Thanks: 52
Thanked 712 Times in 292 Posts
Default

There is no law or regulation requiring the use of a PFD on a poker run. There are rules (APBA / OSS) that require the use of helmets and PFD's for racing.

Personally.. I am tired of people like APS who think there should be a regulation for everything... When is doubt regulate it out! It gets so old!

Woodsy
__________________
The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.
Woodsy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Woodsy For This Useful Post:
chipj29 (08-08-2013), Dave R (08-07-2013), Grandpa Redneck (08-07-2013), LIforrelaxin (08-07-2013), Webbsatwinni (08-07-2013)
Old 08-07-2013, 09:40 AM   #12
jrc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hollis/Gilford
Posts: 2,688
Thanks: 33
Thanked 437 Times in 247 Posts
Default

People carry PFDs on their boat to protect themselves from drowning, when their boat sinks.

On a boat your only protection from a collision is using your brain to avoid one. Only a fool would expect a $5 piece of floatation foam to protect them from a collision.
jrc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 12:59 PM   #13
4Fun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 283
Thanks: 1
Thanked 65 Times in 38 Posts
Default No jacket is Impact rated anymore....

Long official explanation form PFDMA.com......



Inherently buoyant PFDs have information on the label that states “strength tested at XXX MPH.” The minimum speed for any approval is 35 MPH, but manufacturers can choose to have their product tested at 50, 75 or 100 MPH. If the manufacturer wants to label the product for use as a lifejacket for PWC, waterskiing or similar towed uses, the devise must be tested at a minimum of 50 MPH.

The device is tested by attaching it to a metal frame dropped in various positions into the water from a boat or helicopter. To pass the dynamic strength test, the device cannot show any signs of mechanical damage -- such as tears, rips, loose seams, or broken or distorted hardware -- sufficient to affect its performance.

This test IS NOT an evaluation of what sort of protection the device might give the wearer in falls at those speeds. This is a common misunderstanding. The test is only intended to evaluate the integrity of the materials and construction. In fact, the label also says, ”NOT TESTED FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION FROM IMPACT.”

PFD manufacturers and retailers are not allowed to use any marketing information that implies impact protection. As an example, manufacturers can not use “100 MPH “ as part of their product markings or name, nor can they use words like “impact” which might imply impact protection.

To qualify for PWC, waterskiing or similar towed uses, a lifejacket must be dynamic strength tested (also called strength tested) at 50 MPH or greater, as already noted. In addition, these vests must have three front closures, two of which must be body encircling. An example would be a front zipper and two body encircling belts, or two body encircling belts and a chest strap. This type of closure system would provide for a more secure fit in case of a fall.

When a PFD design does not meet the requirements of strength testing and approved closure system for a waterski device, the label must state: “Not Approved for personal watercraft, waterskiing or similar towed uses.” The goal is to have people wear vests that will not come off or tear apart in a fall. This information is now in the text of the label and the user needs to read the label carefully when choosing a PFD for waterskiing. However, the inclusion of this statement was introduced in 2003, so it is possible to have two identical lifejackets -- one with the statement and one without -- determined by when they were made.

The message to the user should be to read the PFD label of any lifejacket to see if it has any exclusions for their intended use. It is equally important to ensure the lifejacket is of the proper size so it will not come off in a fall.

As a final note, remember that no inflatable is approved for PWC, watersking or similar towed use.
.
4Fun is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to 4Fun For This Useful Post:
ApS (08-08-2013), BroadHopper (08-07-2013), Dave R (08-07-2013), jrc (08-07-2013), LIforrelaxin (08-07-2013)
Old 08-07-2013, 03:39 PM   #14
BroadHopper
Senior Member
 
BroadHopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Laconia NH / Bozeman MO
Posts: 4,815
Thanks: 2,327
Thanked 849 Times in 591 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
Personally.. I am tired of people like APS who think there should be a regulation for everything... When is doubt regulate it out! It gets so old!

Woodsy
You can tell when old farts like APS wre getting bored...................

He was fine in the beginning of the season.

I can't wait until he move back to Florida and starting muddling into their affairs.
__________________
Someday may never be an actual day.
BroadHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to BroadHopper For This Useful Post:
Webbsatwinni (08-07-2013)
Old 08-07-2013, 03:50 PM   #15
BroadHopper
Senior Member
 
BroadHopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Laconia NH / Bozeman MO
Posts: 4,815
Thanks: 2,327
Thanked 849 Times in 591 Posts
Default PFD protection

is just that, for flotation. When I started water ski racing, I had to learn to tuck into a ball by folding my arms around my legs and tuck my head between my knees. When I fall in this position, I actually roll into the water. This is the only way you can survive a high speed fall into the water. APBA, OSSA and SI also suggests the same strategy. I was told by a Navy Seal that this is also the case in their training. A PFD only aid in flotation.

In any boat travelling at high speed a kill switch attached to the body is also a great idea. This will eliminate a runaway boat, such as you have heard in the news recently. I notice almost all performance boats have a lanyard switch and it is there for a purpose. Not all boaters used them and frankly I know of one newbie that does not even know what it is!

A boat is only as good as the skipper. Regulations do not make the skipper. The skipper do!
__________________
Someday may never be an actual day.
BroadHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 10:56 AM   #16
VitaBene
Senior Member
 
VitaBene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 3,122
Thanks: 1,250
Thanked 1,375 Times in 688 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
...and not enough mattresses to save a skydiver who forgot his parachute?




But that's hardly the point.

The first photo to come out from this event shows a boatload of passengers, with nobody wearing a PFD.
Do you wear a PFD everytime you sail or boat??
VitaBene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 05:34 AM   #17
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Winnipesaukee & Florida
Posts: 4,496
Thanks: 933
Thanked 434 Times in 318 Posts
Red face What Was the Question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaBene View Post
Do you wear a PFD everytime you sail or boat??
In every speed event, I wear—or carry onboard—every possible safety option; however, I sign a waiver not to hold the event organizers liable for damages from misadventure.

• As we saw at this forum, VB posted circumstances of speedboats' swamping in a zone officially designated for "no-wake".



• Combined with videos and/or witness testimony of exceeding that speed—or exceeding any other limit on speed—the organizers and participants would be liable for damages in New Hampshire's Civil Court.

• During an infamous Lake Winnipesaukee fatality case in New Hampshire's Civil Court, we've observed that insurance companies aren't always required to pay out damages.
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 10:12 PM   #18
NHBUOY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loon Mtn. winters...Meredith Neck summers
Posts: 398
Thanks: 288
Thanked 93 Times in 59 Posts
Talking

VB, NO, APS DOES NOT wear a life-jacket. THAT was the answer to the question.
NHBUOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 08:56 AM   #19
chipj29
Senior Member
 
chipj29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bow
Posts: 1,859
Thanks: 497
Thanked 290 Times in 154 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post



• Combined with videos and/or witness testimony of exceeding that speed—or exceeding any other limit on speedthe organizers and participants would be liable for damages in New Hampshire's Civil Court.
You would have a tough time finding the organizers liable. Each individual is responsible for their actions.
__________________
Getting ready for winter!
chipj29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2013, 10:30 AM   #20
BroadHopper
Senior Member
 
BroadHopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Laconia NH / Bozeman MO
Posts: 4,815
Thanks: 2,327
Thanked 849 Times in 591 Posts
Default Money and Power

If one has money and power any case can be sued and won.
__________________
Someday may never be an actual day.
BroadHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 0.32519 seconds