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Old 02-12-2011, 06:39 AM   #101
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Arrow The Decline of Empathy...

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Originally Posted by jarhead0341 View Post
So isn't 80 or 100 given the right conditions and situations
1) "The right conditions" can't exist on a primarily residential lake with 253 islands, irregular inlets, coves, bays, harbors, with a wide assortment of recreational boaters day and night.

2) Just as BoaterEd's Les Hall writes from Concord:
Quote:
"Take it to the ocean, it's only 1½-hours away."

3) Empathy is a vital trait—the glue that holds civilized society together. Empathy is generally conceived as the ability to put oneself in another’s shoes...what it would be like to be the other person and then experience similar reactions ourselves, and to have more of an involuntary, automatic response.

Our peaceable boaters are not getting empathy.

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just looking for a no bs answer if numbers 1 thru 5 are followed why the need for a speed limit ......... and if people dont follow 1 thru 5 why does anyone think they will follow the speed limit ?
Our Speed Limit comes with a points system.
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Old 02-12-2011, 10:52 AM   #102
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This video shows what Lake Winnnipesaukee will look like every summer if SB-27 is passed:

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Old 02-12-2011, 11:28 AM   #103
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Except for daytime rather than nightime, this video looks like leaving Wolfeboro after July 4th fireworks.
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:45 AM   #104
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Except for daytime rather than nightime, this video looks like leaving Wolfeboro after July 4th fireworks.
It wouldn't surprise me a bit Sue Doe-Nym.

Do you think any of these Go Fast Boaters were being “reasonable and prudent under the existing conditions”?

Do you think that any of these Go Fast Boaters took into consideration the following Coast Guard “RULES” which is written in SB-27

(A) The state of visibility.
(B) The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels.
(C) The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions.
(E) The state of wind, sea, and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards.
(F) The draft in relation to the available depth of water.
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:43 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
This video shows what Lake Winnnipesaukee will look like every summer if SB-27 is passed:

Rusty I ask you to be objective. Do those boats in any way look like they are threatening anybody? Is it the noise or the appearance of speed?
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Old 02-12-2011, 12:57 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post
One of my winter visitations includes about 40 square miles of mostly woodlands and a few hundred residences. The speed limit is 25-MPH, and in a few places, 20-MPH.

With a hundred miles of dead-straight roadways, why is the speed limit set at 25?

Because these roadways pass through about 40 square miles of a Federal Wildlife Preserve set aside to save an endangered sub-species of deer!

APS, every time someone steps on the lake bottom they cause water quality to decline as sediment that gets kicked up reduces clarity. If you were to sample the beach in front of shorefront houses during weekend play you would likely see an increase on phosphorus and N2 in the water.

Did you know that slower speeds in no-wake zones can churn up a lot of sediment than would be the case at higher speed?

The placement of docks and boathouses impacts fish species.

There is hard science to back-up what I am discussing. So since you are one of the people who promotes these kinds of things, are you willing to forgo your dock and shorefront properties from having beaches?

How about allowing faster speeds through NWZs to correspond to the average depth? Could be 8-12 MPH instead of a blanket 6 MPH.

Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is or are you they typical Winni "as long as I have mine" type of guy?
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:34 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by lawn psycho View Post
Rusty I ask you to be objective. Do those boats in any way look like they are threatening anybody? Is it the noise or the appearance of speed?

Evidently you didn't watch the video!!!

So I did a cut that is 2:28 into the video that shows one GFB amost hitting a sail boat. Go to that section of the video and tell me these guys aren't violating some Coast Guard "Rule".
Don't just jump into a conversation without atleast giving it some thought!

Take some time to watch that video and you will see that they could care less who gets in their way!!


Last edited by Rusty; 02-12-2011 at 01:42 PM. Reason: changed time for video to 2:28
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:52 PM   #108
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Evidently you didn't watch the video!!!

So I did a cut that is 2:28 into the video that shows one GFB amost hitting a sail boat. Go to that section of the video and tell me these guys aren't violating some Coast Guard "Rule".
Don't just jump into a conversation without atleast giving it some thought!

Take some time to watch that video and you will see that they could care less who gets in their way!!

I did watch the video. What I do see is what appears to be violation of the 150 ft rule (more than once).

I would also not characterize when they passed the sailboat as "almost hitting" it. Although zoom camera angles can fool us, it does however appear less than 150 ft away.

Go to Sebago. There is no 150 ft rule. The world does not end over there....
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:58 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by lawn psycho View Post
I did watch the video. What I do see is what appears to be violation of the 150 ft rule (more than once).

I would also not characterize when they passed the sailboat as "almost hitting" it. Although zoom camera angles can fool us, it does however appear less than 150 ft away.

Go to Sebago. There is no 150 ft rule. The world does not end over there....
NO!!!! You go to Sebago.....I like Lake Winnipesaukee just the way it is thank you.

The Senate Transportation Committee will hold a hearing on SB27 on Thursday, February 24 at 9am in Room 305/307 of the Legislative Office Building, which is the building across the street behind the Statehouse in Concord.

See you there lawn psycho
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Old 02-12-2011, 02:09 PM   #110
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See you there lawn psycho
Unfortunately you won't. I'll be in San Jose that day for work unless they allow me to Skype in some testimony and soon thereafter I am back over the pond in Asia for a couple more weeks.
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Old 02-12-2011, 02:59 PM   #111
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Unfortunately you won't. I'll be in San Jose that day for work unless they allow me to Skype in some testimony and soon thereafter I am back over the pond in Asia for a couple more weeks.

Say hi to Mr. Li (Lee) for me.

yāt louh seuhn fùng!
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:13 PM   #112
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Say hi to Mr. Li (Lee) for me.

yāt louh seuhn fùng!
Lee is more common in Korea (as is Kim) It's Mr. Liu in China....
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:57 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
This video shows what Lake Winnnipesaukee will look like every summer if SB-27 is passed:

Winnipesaukee with the passage of SB-27 would actually look just like Winnipesaukee without SB-27. As far as I can tell, SB-27 does not require people to operate at high speeds.

Why don't you show a video from Winnipesaukee prior to the speed limit? Wouldn't that be a more realistic depiction of Winnipesaukee without the current speed limit?
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:21 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
Winnipesaukee with the passage of SB-27 would actually look just like Winnipesaukee without SB-27. As far as I can tell, SB-27 does not require people to operate at high speeds.

Why don't you show a video from Winnipesaukee prior to the speed limit? Wouldn't that be a more realistic depiction of Winnipesaukee without the current speed limit?
You say: "Winnipesaukee with the passage of SB-27 would actually look just like Winnipesaukee without SB-27."

I say:
No it won’t, it will look just like that video with the President of SBONH leading the charge.

You say: "As far as I can tell, SB-27 does not require people to operate at high speeds."

I say: I know it doesn’t but they will and the President of the SBONH will lead the charge.

You say: "Why don't you show a video from Winnipesaukee prior to the speed limit? Wouldn't that be a more realistic depiction of Winnipesaukee without the current speed limit?"

I say:
Believe me, prior to the speed limit I have seen days on Lake Winnipesaukee just like that video.
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:37 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
You say: "Winnipesaukee with the passage of SB-27 would actually look just like Winnipesaukee without SB-27."

I say:
No it won’t, it will look just like that video with the President of SBONH leading the charge.

You say: "As far as I can tell, SB-27 does not require people to operate at high speeds."

I say: I know it doesn’t but they will and the President of the SBONH will lead the charge.

You say: "Why don't you show a video from Winnipesaukee prior to the speed limit? Wouldn't that be a more realistic depiction of Winnipesaukee without the current speed limit?"

I say:
Believe me, prior to the speed limit I have seen days on Lake Winnipesaukee just like that video.
Rusty, simple yes or no question.

Prior to the speed limit bill passing would the operators of those vessels be subject to ticketing for boating offenses?
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:48 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by lawn psycho View Post
Rusty, simple yes or no question.

Prior to the speed limit bill passing would the operators of those vessels be subject to ticketing for boating offenses?
YES

This is my last post for this thread, I don’t want the webmaster to moderate me because I post too much.

See you all at the hearing on SB27 on Thursday, February 24 at 9am in Room 305/307 of the Legislative Office Building.

Rusty
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:06 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
Believe me, prior to the speed limit I have seen days on Lake Winnipesaukee just like that video.
I've been boating on Winnipesaukee for 36 years. I don't believe you.

Here's a video that just as unrelated as the one you posted, but more entertaining.

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Old 02-13-2011, 07:03 AM   #118
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Arrow The Arrogance of SB-27...

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Go to Sebago. There is no 150 ft rule. The world does not end over there....
Sebago has adequate line-of-sight nearly everywhere. Immediately adjacent is a lake where the world ended for two peaceable boaters.

(That perpetrator—described as "unremorseful and perjurous" by the judge—will be out of jail just in time for this 4th of July holiday-weekend.)

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Originally Posted by lawn psycho View Post
APS, every time someone steps on the lake bottom they cause water quality to decline as sediment that gets kicked up reduces clarity. If you were to sample the beach in front of shorefront houses during weekend play you would likely see an increase on phosphorus and N2 in the water.

Did you know that slower speeds in no-wake zones can churn up a lot of sediment than would be the case at higher speed?

The placement of docks and boathouses impacts fish species.

There is hard science to back-up what I am discussing. So since you are one of the people who promotes these kinds of things, are you willing to forgo your dock and shorefront properties from having beaches?

How about allowing faster speeds through NWZs to correspond to the average depth? Could be 8-12 MPH instead of a blanket 6 MPH.

Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is or are you they typical Winni "as long as I have mine" type of guy?
I've "had mine" for 55 years, so I can advise you that some visitors reversed Winnipesaukee's "relax-coefficient". Things got tense if you were a peaceable boater.

The situation got steadily worse until the Speed Limit came to the lake.

1) Sediment (+ Nitrogen and Phosphorus) is DES' responsibility—take it up with them.

2) "Producing-more-sediment-at-slower-speeds-than-No-Wake" is a new one on me.

3) Oversized boats produce greater damage above a genuine "no-wake" speed.

4) Ask any fisherman, fish are actually attracted to "structure".

My money is on the Speed Limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
Winnipesaukee with the passage of SB-27 would actually look just like Winnipesaukee without SB-27.
1) In some ways, you are correct.

Rob LaPointe established a horrendous driving record before committing his double-homicide upon two peaceable boaters. The "points" gathered in the 22 convictions on his driving record meant nothing to him. Like Lake Winnipesaukee's most recent "celebrity", he retains "good" lawyers.

2) Last season, I watched as a GFBL passed a Marine Patrol at double the speed limit; at the time, the NHMP boat was towing a PWC, and unable/unwilling—to enforce noise- or speed- limits.

I've watched many summers as many other over-sized boats chose to ignore the laws they didn't like.

3) That Director Barrett is only lukewarm into enforcements, just may mean his time is up! (Just as former Commissioner Richard Flynn's backroom "monkeying" with Speed Limits led to his eventual replacement.)

Quote:
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Why don't you [Rusty] show a video from Winnipesaukee prior to the speed limit? Wouldn't that be a more realistic depiction of Winnipesaukee without the current speed limit?
I am now "out" of this discussion until Wednesday—but:

You can never beat "The Longest and Safest Season in Anyone's Memory".


1) SB-27 removes the speed limits, the points system, and any chance of ridding BWI through NHMP use of RADAR. (Especially RADAR after dark, when NHMP patrolboats are nearly indistinguishable from other night boat traffic).

2) Since these changes apply throughout the state, does Squam Lake risk losing its "kinder" reputation as well?

3) A Tuftonboro family—who remain unknown to me—tried to hand me their video camera—right from their dock! I had to turn down that offer, as there was great risk in being a small boater near this airborne ocean-racer, so this photo must substitute for the video.

BTW: This photo accompanied every letter I've mailed to those Representatives and Senators who were wishy-washy on Speed Limits.

'Guess I'll need to mail those again—just to make sure.
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Last edited by ApS; 02-13-2011 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Re-find photograph...tidy-up...
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:14 AM   #119
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YES

This is my last post for this thread, I don’t want the webmaster to moderate me because I post too much.

Rusty
The webmaster will not moderate you for posting too much, he only moderates when one posts too much garbage.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:26 AM   #120
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The webmaster will not moderate you for posting too much, he only moderates when one posts too much garbage.
I know I said I wouldn't post again in this thread but I think Vitabene's comment should be addressed.

In the “Posting Guidelines” that are in the FAQ section it states the following: “Don't post excessive numbers of messages or comments. Posting more than a few messages or comments in a day is excessive and may get you moderated or restricted.”

I know there are a lot of members (including me) who post more than “a few” in a day but I just don’t want to be moderated if I over post.
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:45 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
YES

This is my last post for this thread, I don’t want the webmaster to moderate me because I post too much.

See you all at the hearing on SB27 on Thursday, February 24 at 9am in Room 305/307 of the Legislative Office Building.

Rusty
Rusty, my issue with that video is there is what I would consider reckless operation which had a MP boat been in the area I suspect they would have been stopped. However, I think it's the sound that really draws the attention too them and why people oppose them.

Last summer we were at the West Alton sandbar and one of the super shiny old-school wooden boats picked up anchor. When he started the motor I swear it must have regsitered as a mini-quake. As he pulled away, he headed somewhere towards Wolfeboro at what appeared crusing speed probably around 20-25 MPH. That boat was loud and my wife's comment was, "why does he have to drive it so fast"?

Keep in mind that most basic bowriders can reach 50 MPH so making every boat on the water into law breakers isn't fair either. The speed limit doesn't change a single thing on the lake.

If you think the dumb moves are isolated to high performance boats you don't boat on the same Winni I do. However, I do find most people respectful of other boats and it's not pandamonium as the SL supporters would like to mislead the non-boating public to believe.
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Old 02-13-2011, 04:36 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post
[1) Sediment (+ Nitrogen and Phosphorus) is DES' responsibility—take it up with them.

2) "Producing-more-sediment-at-slower-speeds-than-No-Wake" is a new one on me.

3) Oversized boats produce greater damage above a genuine "no-wake" speed.

4) Ask any fisherman, fish are actually attracted to "structure".

My money is on the Speed Limit.
Here's one of a bizillion tidbits of information that I could link. I'm sure NH has something similar. http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/pub...moorage_e.pdfS

A boathouse and covered dock is simply stealing from the lake as that area is totally shaded.

The biggest threat to the lake are those who on shorefront property. How many things from their properties and docks end up in the lake. You talk about stuff making into the lake. Let's talk about run-off from clearings and the 100s and 100s of septic fields that are nowvery close to the lake.

So keep spewing your venom about how everyone else is raining on your parade while you're the bigger part of the problem.

Too busy to play scientist right now.
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Old 02-13-2011, 04:42 PM   #123
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1) "The right conditions" can't exist on a primarily residential lake with 253 islands, irregular inlets, coves, bays, harbors, with a wide assortment of recreational boaters day and night.

2) Just as BoaterEd's Les Hall writes from Concord: [/CENTER]

3) Empathy is a vital trait—the glue that holds civilized society together. Empathy is generally conceived as the ability to put oneself in another’s shoes...what it would be like to be the other person and then experience similar reactions ourselves, and to have more of an involuntary, automatic response.

Our peaceable boaters are not getting empathy.



Our Speed Limit comes with a points system.
#1 your opinion sorry I and I'm sure many others don't share.
#2 his opinion I promise I won't take a fast boat to concord
#3 put yourself in the shoes of those who want to go faster than 45 under safe conditions and see how you would feel even though there are no high speed accident statistics on the lake and by that I mean greater than 3 mph we know that wouldn't have made a difference
#4 by the way I am a passenger on 93 south as I type and wait isn't there a speed limit...... with a point system that must be why everyone is going 55
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Old 02-14-2011, 12:11 AM   #124
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...put yourself in the shoes of those who want to go faster than 45 under safe conditions and see how you would feel even though there are no high speed accident statistics on the lake and by that I mean greater than 3 mph we know that wouldn't have made a difference...
It's unbelievable how people can say "no high speed accidents" when there have been 3 in recent years.

"Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed."
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:22 AM   #125
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It's unbelievable how people can say "no high speed accidents" when there have been 3 in recent years.

"Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed."
One was estimated at 3 mph over the night time sl like that would have made a difference what are the other 2 if you don't mind refreshing my memory...... you cant say 33 is high speed and that's why we need to get rid of all these 100 mph boats it makes no sense
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:51 AM   #126
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It's unbelievable how people can say "no high speed accidents" when there have been 3 in recent years.

"Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed."
It's unbelievable how people can equate "high speed accidents" with accidents "attributed to speed".
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:21 AM   #127
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One was estimated at 3 mph over the night time sl like that would have made a difference what are the other 2 if you don't mind refreshing my memory...... you cant say 33 is high speed and that's why we need to get rid of all these 100 mph boats it makes no sense
The speed in the accident you mention was calculated to be AT LEAST 33 mph. However the speed limit also says the the speed must be "reasonable and prudent" for the conditions. I was out on the lake that night and in my opinion anything over about 15 mph was speeding. So if you want to play the numbers game I will say that in my opinion the speed of the boat was at least 18 mph over the current speed limit.

With respect to the other two accidents, why is it my job to refresh your memory on those accidents. You should be familiar with all the accidents before you post statements claiming there have been "no high speed accidents".

Additionally there have been other high speed accidents not involving death that you are not considering. The three accidents I refer to are only recent FATAL accidents. The have also been other fatal accidents that are not recent including a multiple decapitation accident at extreme high speed.

Posting you opinion on an open forum is one thing. However when you post as a statement of fact, you should know what you are talking about.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:00 AM   #128
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......The have also been other fatal accidents that are not recent including a multiple decapitation accident at extreme high speed.
When/where/details? This is one I am not aware of or it least it doesn't ring a bell.

BI, I want to spend a few hours out on a boat with you next summer and we'll review our findings together. Did you ever think that perhaps you're only willing to "see" the bad in every action taken on the lake?

It seems that as soon as people own lakefront property the angst from some sense of entitlement must keep you guys awake at night. I just don't see the pandamonium that you describe. You seem to infer that boating fatalities are a daily occurence. Look how many people visit the lake each year. The data just doesn't show speed as public enemy number one. If I thought the SL would make any difference I would support it. If you restrict Hp, then you WILL hit the wallets of marinas and I don't see that gaining much traction. Many boats have 250-350 Hp on the lake. Even the mid-line Four Winns like I own which is an everyman's bowrider it pushing 320 Hp for a 23 foot boat.

Enforce the 150 ft rule heavily and make sure at every launch and marina, have signs that remind people. You want people to think before they act. Speed tickets/fines on the road are meant as revenue enhancement and don't deter speeding. Haven't you had a psycology 101? So why on earth would you think they would work on a lake?

In all of this debate, I still don't see what you are trying to fix that a heavily enforced 150 ft rule doesn't already address? Please, I'd like a serious answer.
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Old 02-14-2011, 12:17 PM   #129
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The speed in the accident you mention was calculated to be AT LEAST 33 mph. However the speed limit also says the the speed must be "reasonable and prudent" for the conditions. I was out on the lake that night and in my opinion anything over about 15 mph was speeding. So if you want to play the numbers game I will say that in my opinion the speed of the boat was at least 18 mph over the current speed limit.

With respect to the other two accidents, why is it my job to refresh your memory on those accidents. You should be familiar with all the accidents before you post statements claiming there have been "no high speed accidents".

Additionally there have been other high speed accidents not involving death that you are not considering. The three accidents I refer to are only recent FATAL accidents. The have also been other fatal accidents that are not recent including a multiple decapitation accident at extreme high speed.


Posting you opinion on an open forum is one thing. However when you post as a statement of fact, you should know what you are talking about.
really I should do my research....... who was decapitated on lake winni and when did related to speed become high speed ......you believe your opinion to be fact and all else as garbage so why don't we stick to winni issues and stop drawing photos and stories from all over the world into this .......... I just want you to give me an example of your claimed many high speed accidents from this lake
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Old 02-14-2011, 12:19 PM   #130
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When/where/details? This is one I am not aware of or it least it doesn't ring a bell.

BI, I want to spend a few hours out on a boat with you next summer and we'll review our findings together. Did you ever think that perhaps you're only willing to "see" the bad in every action taken on the lake?

It seems that as soon as people own lakefront property the angst from some sense of entitlement must keep you guys awake at night. I just don't see the pandamonium that you describe. You seem to infer that boating fatalities are a daily occurence. Look how many people visit the lake each year. The data just doesn't show speed as public enemy number one. If I thought the SL would make any difference I would support it. If you restrict Hp, then you WILL hit the wallets of marinas and I don't see that gaining much traction. Many boats have 250-350 Hp on the lake. Even the mid-line Four Winns like I own which is an everyman's bowrider it pushing 320 Hp for a 23 foot boat.

Enforce the 150 ft rule heavily and make sure at every launch and marina, have signs that remind people. You want people to think before they act. Speed tickets/fines on the road are meant as revenue enhancement and don't deter speeding. Haven't you had a psycology 101? So why on earth would you think they would work on a lake?

In all of this debate, I still don't see what you are trying to fix that a heavily enforced 150 ft rule doesn't already address? Please, I'd like a serious answer.
You are reading WAY to much into my posts. When I have a point to make, I make it.

I do not believe accidents are the main reason we need speed limits. In fact they are rather far down on my list of reasons.

However... There is now pending legislation which makes this a political debate. If you post statements of fact that are untrue in a political debate you should expect to be called on it. That is all I am doing. Years ago I researched these accidents and I know the facts. I believe the anti-SL side should know the facts BEFORE they post blanket statements about these accidents. Or before they post that these accidents never happened.

These are real accidents with real people. It is an insult to their memory to claim these accidents never happened.

Once again I will point out it is not my job to educate the anti-SL side about the facts. However I will point out that all the accidents I refer to have been posted about in this very forum.

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Old 02-14-2011, 12:33 PM   #131
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You are reading WAY to much into my posts. When I have a point to make, I make it.

I do not believe accidents are the main reason we need speed limits. In fact they are rather far down on my list of reasons.

However... There is now pending legislation which makes this a political debate. If you post statements of fact that are untrue in a political debate you should expect to be called on it. That is all I am doing. Years ago I researched these accidents and I know the facts. I believe the anti-SL side should know the facts BEFORE they post blanked statements about these accidents. Or before they post that these accidents never happened.

These are real accidents with real people. It is an insult to their memory to claim these accidents never happened.

Once again I will point out it is not my job to educate the anti-SL side about the facts. However I will point out that all the accidents I refer to have been posted about in this very forum.
BI, I am not one who just throws chafe out there and can back up my facts. I do not know of any high speed accident/fatality involving decapitation. If it's so common knowledge than please enlighten me.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:00 PM   #132
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Here's my solution to this speed limit:

1) Get rid of the fixed speed limit on Winnipesaukee, NH's largest lake. Apply the USCG "reasonable and prudent" rule.

2) Make the fixed speed limit (45/25) applicable to all other lakes in NH.

This way there is something for everyone. People who want peace and quiet (don't give me the "safety" BS) can go to the hundreds of other lakes in the state and enjoy themselves to the utmost.

Meanwhile, Marine Patrol can enforce the dozens of laws already on the books to go after BWI, the safe passage law, equipment violations, etc., etc,.......................................
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:19 PM   #133
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Here's my solution to this speed limit:

1) Get rid of the fixed speed limit on Winnipesaukee, NH's largest lake. Apply the USCG "reasonable and prudent" rule.

2) Make the fixed speed limit (45/25) applicable to all other lakes in NH.

This way there is something for everyone. People who want peace and quiet (don't give me the "safety" BS) can go to the hundreds of other lakes in the state and enjoy themselves to the utmost.

Meanwhile, Marine Patrol can enforce the dozens of laws already on the books to go after BWI, the safe passage law, equipment violations, etc., etc,.......................................
I think we should do a poker run with APS and BI's places as waypoints. Maybe even have a swim call/rafting party out there as well!!
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:28 PM   #134
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BI, I am not one who just throws chafe out there and can back up my facts. I do not know of any high speed accident/fatality involving decapitation. If it's so common knowledge than please enlighten me.
It happened in Gilford many years ago. A boat traveling at high speed hit a dock at night, went airborne and hit a house inverted. The three occupants of the boat were decapitated.

It was posted about extensively in August of 2003 in the old forum so you need to search the archives. The threads are named "Boat enters cottage - upside down.." and "Baja gets air". This accident was also part of the testimony in the Moultonboro HB162 public hearing.

It has been discussed in recent years on this forum but I have been informed by SL supporters that it happened to long ago to count. I guess that means it never happened and the people are not dead.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:52 PM   #135
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I think there should be.... get this.... a COMPROMISE!

IMHO, all of the FATAL accidents have occured at NIGHT and ALCOHOL was involved! In EVERY SINGLE ACCIDENT there was a violation of the COLREGS! EVERY SINGLE ONE! It can be argued that all accidents are violations of the COLREGS. But in the last 2 accidents, both accidents occured at NIGHT, several of the COLREGS were violated, quite possibly some BWI laws as well. Niether of the last 2 accidents occured over the current night time speed limit of 30 MPH.... however they were both grossly in violation of Rule 6, namely too fast for the conditions at the time of the accident and failure to keep a proper lookout. Add in booze and you have recipe for disaster. No speed limit would have prevented these accidents from occuring!

I personally think a COMPROMISE is in order! I get that there are extremeists on either side, but I think there can be middle ground!

I propose the adoption of the COLREGS, an unlimited DAYTIME limit (when visibility can be measured in MILES) and keep the current night time limit of 30 MPH.

My logic is this, we have had NO hi-speed collisions during the daytime. The reason being visibilty is measured in miles, and we have the 150' rule! That rule does more to prevent accidents than many people realize!

Most of the major accidents occur at night, and usually alcohol is involved. Given the inherent lack of depth perception at night, lower visibilty, and increased possibility of intoxicated skippers... I think the current night time limit of 30 MPH is appropriate!

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Old 02-14-2011, 04:24 PM   #136
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It happened in Gilford many years ago. A boat traveling at high speed hit a dock at night, went airborne and hit a house inverted. The three occupants of the boat were decapitated.

It was posted about extensively in August of 2003 in the old forum so you need to search the archives. The threads are named "Boat enters cottage - upside down.." and "Baja gets air". This accident was also part of the testimony in the Moultonboro HB162 public hearing.

It has been discussed in recent years on this forum but I have been informed by SL supporters that it happened to long ago to count. I guess that means it never happened and the people are not dead.
How do we search the archives for old posts? I'm coming up empty in the search efforts with just a link back to this thread.
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Old 02-14-2011, 04:55 PM   #137
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How do we search the archives for old posts? I'm coming up empty in the search efforts with just a link back to this thread.
I can offer no help in the search, but I recall the accident. Happened in the mid 1970s. A boat was traveling at a very high speed and hit the shore. The boat flipped in mid-air and crashed into a camp that was quite a distance from the shore. IIRC, all aboard were at least double the legal alcohol limit and all died. I'm pretty sure there was a major crackdown on BUI, as a result.
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:04 PM   #138
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I can offer no help in the search, but I recall the accident. Happened in the mid 1970s. A boat was traveling at a very high speed and hit the shore. The boat flipped in mid-air and crashed into a camp that was quite a distance from the shore. IIRC, all aboard were at least double the legal alcohol limit and all died. I'm pretty sure there was a major crackdown on BUI, as a result.
Were the boat operators also lakefront owners or related to someone who was? That also seems to be a recurring theme to the fatalities. Maybe the SL supporters need to look amongst themselves as to who to blame.......
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:28 PM   #139
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Were the boat operators also lakefront owners or related to someone who was? That also seems to be a recurring theme to the fatalities. Maybe the SL supporters need to look amongst themselves as to who to blame.......
Who to blame? I'm not trying to blame anyone. I'm simply saying that the accident happened and anybody that says different is wrong. I know you guys will come up with a long list of reasons why that accident doesn't count or has no connection with speed limits. That is what you do.

But it doesn't alter the fact that it did happen and when someone posts that it didn't they are in error.

And I think you are way off base with your idea that lakefront owners are all in favor of speed limits. Several of the top people fighting speed limits are waterfront owners.

The old forum is at http://www.winnipesaukeeforum.com/ you can search August 2003 but you will find the old forum is not as user friendly as the current forum.
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:29 PM   #140
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It happened in Gilford many years ago. A boat traveling at high speed hit a dock at night, went airborne and hit a house inverted. The three occupants of the boat were decapitated.

It was posted about extensively in August of 2003 in the old forum so you need to search the archives. The threads are named "Boat enters cottage - upside down.." and "Baja gets air". This accident was also part of the testimony in the Moultonboro HB162 public hearing.

It has been discussed in recent years on this forum but I have been informed by SL supporters that it happened to long ago to count. I guess that means it never happened and the people are not dead.
The mid 70's and alcohol related is that the one........ clutching at straws why should it be relevant?
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:30 PM   #141
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The mid 70's and alcohol related is that the one........ clutching at straws why should it be relevant?
Please read what I write more carefully. I never made any claim as to it's relevants. How relevant the accident is or is not is a matter of opinion. I only posted fact.

Jarhead posted that there were "no high speed accident statistics on the lake" That was his claim and he put no time limits on this claim. I refuted his post by mentioning several accidents including this one. The accident in question was high speed, fatal, and happened on Winnipesaukee. That is all I ever claimed.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:51 PM   #142
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Please read what I write more carefully. I never made any claim as to it's relevants. How relevant the accident is or is not is a matter of opinion. I only posted fact.

Jarhead posted that there were "no high speed accident statistics on the lake" That was his claim and he put no time limits on this claim. I refuted his post by mentioning several accidents including this one. The accident in question was high speed, fatal, and happened on Winnipesaukee. That is all I ever claimed.
What was the speed again and where is it documented.... that's right nowhere we have no idea if the boat was going over 45 all we have is some forum chatter and speculation
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:52 PM   #143
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What was the speed again and where is it documented.... that's right nowhere we have no idea if the boat was going over 45 all we have is some forum chatter and speculation
Testimony before a legislative committee, by a professional accident investigator, is not "forum chatter".

For a third time I will point out that it is not by duty to educate the anti-SL side about accident data. You want me to do all the leg work and post it here so you can pick it apart and come up with reasons why it is not relevant.

My point is that you need to educate yourself about the facts BEFORE you start making blanket statements about the history of boat accidents on Winnipesaukee.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:00 PM   #144
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Who to blame? I'm not trying to blame anyone. I'm simply saying that the accident happened and anybody that says different is wrong. I know you guys will come up with a long list of reasons why that accident doesn't count or has no connection with speed limits. That is what you do.

But it doesn't alter the fact that it did happen and when someone posts that it didn't they are in error.

And I think you are way off base with your idea that lakefront owners are all in favor of speed limits. Several of the top people fighting speed limits are waterfront owners.

The old forum is at http://www.winnipesaukeeforum.com/ you can search August 2003 but you will find the old forum is not as user friendly as the current forum.
BI, given that alcohol was a key factor do you honestly think a speed limit would have done anything to change the drivers thought process that night?

And if you need to bring up something from the 70s to maintain relevance to today's current problems then I will call you out on it. The article does not say how fast they were going but it would appear the chain of events that led to the crash is too much to drink.

So what data exists showing 45 MPH will make any difference for daytime boating?

The SL proponents desire to link some of these accidents is a prime example of how correlation does not imply causation. Suggested reading for the pro-SL crowd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

We could spend hours just discussing the lack of correlation. I frequently post things as a tongue-and-cheek way for people to see the fallacies of their logic but it often goes over people's heads.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:16 PM   #145
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I just want some hard facts and I get nothing but do my own research comments .... I have and can find no official data to support the claims of all these high speed accidents .... I have educated myself and there are no facts
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:18 PM   #146
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BI, given that alcohol was a key factor do you honestly think a speed limit would have done anything to change the drivers thought process that night?

And if you need to bring up something from the 70s to maintain relevance to today's current problems then I will call you out on it. The article does not say how fast they were going but it would appear the chain of events that led to the crash is too much to drink.

So what data exists showing 45 MPH will make any difference for daytime boating?

The SL proponents desire to link some of these accidents is a prime example of how correlation does not imply causation. Suggested reading for the pro-SL crowd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

We could spend hours just discussing the lack of correlation. I frequently post things as a tongue-and-cheek way for people to see the fallacies of their logic but it often goes over people's heads.
Once again you are reading way to much into what I post. I am only posting the FACT that these accidents occurred.

I leave it to the reader to determine their own OPINION as to how relevant these accidents are to a speed limit.

If you want to look things up on wikipedia, try looking up the difference between fact and opinion.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:22 PM   #147
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Once again you are reading way to much into what I post. I am only posting the FACT that these accidents occurred.

I leave it to the reader to determine their own OPINION as to how relevant these accidents are to a speed limit.

If you want to look things up on wikipedia, try looking up the difference between fact and opinion.
Would it help if I copied pages from the stats books on the shelf right next to my desk?

Didn't the M/S Mount Washington have a drunk passenger go overboard and die several years ago? The boat was *gasp*, moving. The captain must be a cowboy. Yeeeehaaaaaa!
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:27 PM   #148
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I just want some hard facts and I get nothing but do my own research comments .... I have and can find no official data to support the claims of all these high speed accidents .... I have educated myself and there are no facts
Below is a quote from David Barrett the head of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol and a long time opponent of speed limits. He is an "official" and he is quoting "data". Therefore there IS official data. I guess you did not educate yourself well enough.



Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:57 PM   #149
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Below is a quote from David Barrett the head of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol and a long time opponent of speed limits. He is an "official" and he is quoting "data". Therefore there IS official data. I guess you did not educate yourself well enough.

Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed.
BI, how many of the accidents involving fatalities have involved alcohol? Attributed to speed? If the boats weere moving then I guess he's correct in that is was a factor.

Correlation does not mean causation Psst, the insurance companies rely on this fact when setting car insurance rates.
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:07 PM   #150
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[QUOTE=Bear Islander;150506]Below is a quote from David Barrett the head of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol and a long time opponent of speed limits. He is an "official" and he is quoting "data". Therefore there IS official data. I guess you did not educate yourself well enough.



Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed.[/QUOte


speed doesn't mean high speed that's what your missing......why do I bother you win I can't take anymore
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:18 PM   #151
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I'm curious if even ONE person out there has changed their mind on the need or lack thereof based on the years of back-and-forth by posting not only here but the newspapers and other forums.

I'm grounded in hard science and don't see the SL having any effect on the lake other than a a dozen or so tickets being handed out each year.

I can see where the SL-proponents perceptions would lead them to believe a speed limit will be effective and possibly improve safety. However, after having admitted that the speed limits won't fix many of the problems people thought, they still fight for it. Do you really think someone doing 50 MPH in a bowrider is worthy of a ticket and points on their license? The SL supporters all or nothing attitude is what I think will cause them to lose the battle with SB-27......
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:14 AM   #152
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Below is a quote from David Barrett the head of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol and a long time opponent of speed limits. He is an "official" and he is quoting "data". Therefore there IS official data. I guess you did not educate yourself well enough.



Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed.
An accident involving a boat travelling at 10 MPH in a no-wake zone could be attributed to speed.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:28 PM   #153
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An accident involving a boat travelling at 10 MPH in a no-wake zone could be attributed to speed.
A boat traveling at 100 mph could hit Weirs Beach and kill 100 people.

Yes... I know... The accident I describe is made up, not very likely and doesn't really pertain to SB27. Just like yours.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:20 PM   #154
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A boat traveling at 100 mph could hit Weirs Beach and kill 100 people.

Yes... I know... The accident I describe is made up, not very likely and doesn't really pertain to SB27. Just like yours.
I don't know what's worse. The M/S Mount Washington crashing into something or a 100 MPH bowrider. Which one has happened and which is the one the SL proponents want to portray has happened?
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:41 PM   #155
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A big jet could have a malfunction during takeoff, crash into the sandbar at Silver Sands during a NASCAR race week, and kill 101 people sitting on their boats. Shall we now ban all jet traffic from Laconia airport?
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:00 PM   #156
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A big jet could have a malfunction during takeoff, crash into the sandbar at Silver Sands during a NASCAR race week, and kill 101 people sitting on their boats. Shall we now ban all jet traffic from Laconia airport?
An interstellar dark body could pass through the Solar System's Oort Cloud causing a comet to fall through the Kuiper Belt on its way to impact the Sun. The disruption in the Sun's plasma could cause solar radiation to effect communications satellites. Thus a satellite could fall out of orbit and hit the pilot house of the M/S Mount Washinton as it passes the Witches causing it to loose control and hit two bow riders sending them out of control towards the Silver Sands sandbar resulting in SB27 failing to get out of committee.
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:08 PM   #157
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An interstellar dark body could pass through the Solar System's Oort Cloud causing a comet to fall through the Kuiper Belt on its way to impact the Sun. The disruption in the Sun's plasma could cause solar radiation to effect communications satellites. Thus a satellite could fall out of orbit and hit the pilot house of the M/S Mount Washinton as it passes the Witches causing it to loose control and hit two bow riders sending them out of control towards the Silver Sands sandbar resulting in SB27 failing to get out of committee.
I was hoping it was going to end with an asteroid hitting Bear Island and making it a crater and a new deep diving area on Lake Winnipesaukee and the resulting lake tsunami from the initial impact would take out all the surrounding lake front homes. About 50 years later the speed limit debate would start to warm up again.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:45 PM   #158
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I want to testify about SB-27 next week, but I will be on a boat with engines 50 times larger than any boat on Winnipesaukee.

In place of testimony, let me say the following:

There are some folks that have insinuated that they represent the majority of opinion about what should be the law on Lake Winnipesaukee. IMO there was fraudulent correspondence to legislators that influenced their initial vote. I think the people of New Hampshire are more concerned with freedom, than trying to tweak themselves into a false nirvana of safety. There are some rich shorefront property owners, (Island and Mainland) that want to control how the lake is used. Little by little these rich people will try to control how they think the lake should be used. Does anyone want this lake controlled by rich shorefront owners? It's the people of New Hampshire who must decide. Live Free or Die! Never has this motto meant as much as it does now!
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:39 AM   #159
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A boat traveling at 100 mph could hit Weirs Beach and kill 100 people.

Yes... I know... The accident I describe is made up, not very likely and doesn't really pertain to SB27. Just like yours.
SB27 is about speed being reasonable and prudent. Both situations described here would apply.
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:26 AM   #160
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Here's my 2-cents. After this bill gets voted down in the legislative process, the 'Safe Boaters of New Hampshire' should rename themselves the 'Speedy Boaters of New Hampshire' to be honest.
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:54 AM   #161
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Here's my 2-cents. After this bill gets voted down in the legislative process, the 'Safe Boaters of New Hampshire' should rename themselves the 'Speedy Boaters of New Hampshire' to be honest.
I'm a member and I don't have a fast boat. I bet I'm in the majority in that regard within SBONH.
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Old 02-16-2011, 10:05 AM   #162
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I'm a member and I don't have a fast boat. I bet I'm in the majority in that regard within SBONH.
To a casual observer, the SBONH's preliminary efforts just seemed like window dressing that was a lead-up to their #1 true intent of repealing the boat speed limits.
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Old 02-16-2011, 10:37 AM   #163
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Why can there not be any COMPROMISE?? Its like the western front in WWI... Both sides seem dug in and unwilling to budge!

I have no problem with a nighttime limit because thats when ALL of the accidents cited by WINNFABS have occured!

I have a problem with a daytime limit because there is ABSOLUTELY NO DATA WHATSOEVER to show that its necessary! No accidents! No anything! Just anecdotal stories about how the guy went by me too close and too fast! We all have stories like that! Because I like to putt around the lake, I have stories like that involving every kind of boat!

We need to find a compromise that we can all live with so we can put this issue to rest once and for all! The divisiveness on the lake is acidic!

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Old 02-16-2011, 01:41 PM   #164
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Why can there not be any COMPROMISE?? Its like the western front in WWI... Both sides seem dug in and unwilling to budge!

I have no problem with a nighttime limit because thats when ALL of the accidents cited by WINNFABS have occured!

I have a problem with a daytime limit because there is ABSOLUTELY NO DATA WHATSOEVER to show that its necessary! No accidents! No anything! Just anecdotal stories about how the guy went by me too close and too fast! We all have stories like that! Because I like to putt around the lake, I have stories like that involving every kind of boat!

We need to find a compromise that we can all live with so we can put this issue to rest once and for all! The divisiveness on the lake is acidic!

Woodsy
Woodsy, my guess is that without a compromise the SL debate and future bills we keep coming up if the isn't compromise. I give credit to the SL propoents in getting it too pass as I'm surprised that a compromise wasn't demanded by the legislature. However, the opposition will continue to be fierce with the current law IMO so compromise now or with a different legislator the results could be drastically different later.

I don't have a dog in the fight for night time limits. As far as day limits, I simply look at the 150 ft rule as already being very agressive. 150 ft is a long way and I encourage anyone to go measure it out on their property and see how far away it is.

I've said it over and over, the speed limit itself won't make any difference on the lake except for a dozen or so who happen to get tickets. Making everyday bowriders into lawbreakers doesn't sit well with me.
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Old 02-16-2011, 03:27 PM   #165
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To a casual observer, the SBONH's preliminary efforts just seemed like window dressing that was a lead-up to their #1 true intent of repealing the boat speed limits.
Here's what's on the SBONH home page:

"This group is dedicated to discussing safe power boating and recreational activities on Lake Winnipesaukee and the other inland lakes of the Lakes Region in NH. We work together to help shape legislation that affects our freedoms and enjoyment of the lakes."

Clearly, SBONH is involved in SB-27, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that.

The casual observer can also note the SBONH has also been involved with US Power Squadron Safety Inspections prior to endorsing SB-27. Those safety inspections have nothing to do with speed limits and amount to more than just "window dressing", IMO.

FWIW, I eagerly joined SBONH but was never interested in having any involvement with NHRBA. In hindsight, I think I chose well...
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Old 02-16-2011, 10:49 PM   #166
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I'm a member and I don't have a fast boat. I bet I'm in the majority in that regard within SBONH.
Dave,

I am an officer (VP) of SBONH and own an old Chris Craft bowrider that can maybe break the daytime SL by 1 MPH. Branding us as cowboys makes for better vitriol.

John
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:10 AM   #167
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Why can there not be any COMPROMISE?? Its like the western front in WWI... Both sides seem dug in and unwilling to budge.
Woodsy
Lake Winnipesaukee already has a no-limit speed zone.....and it is named Lake Winnisquam......go figure?

The waters of Lake Winnipesaukee run downstream for about two miles and pour into Lake Winnisquam. Lake Winnisquam is the state's third largest lake and has a lot fewer rocks than Winnipesaukee for boaters to tear up their props. Winnisquam has a no-fee, free to anyone, state boat launch facility complete with a double launch ramp, a big dock, parking for vehicle and trailer, and a toilet. All paid with money from boat registrations, and free to use by anyone. Lake Winnipesaukee does not have a similar state boat launch. It used to have Ames Farm Inn for a popular boat launch, day use spot, but not anymore.
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:55 AM   #168
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Lake Winnipesaukee already has a no-limit speed zone.....and it is named Lake Winnisquam......go figure?
So maybe this shows that people are more prudent and want to go faster on the states LARGEST lake. Just sayin'
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:09 PM   #169
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Arrow "Hindsight" can be a Zero...

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I eagerly joined SBONH but was never interested in having any involvement with NHRBA. In hindsight, I think I chose well...
NHRBA had two years of safe-boating before "hindsight" went from zero to national headlines.

SBONH has less than one year from which any "hindsight" can be determined.

The Lake holds its breath.

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Old 02-17-2011, 08:54 PM   #170
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Here's one of a bizillion tidbits of information that I could link. I'm sure NH has something similar. http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/pub.../moorage_e.pdf
A boathouse and covered dock is simply stealing from the lake as that area is totally shaded. Keep spewing your venom about how everyone else is raining on your parade while you're the bigger part of the problem. Too busy to play scientist right now.
1) Look under many moored boats on the lake: Go slowly and you'll see Smallmouth Bass "taking in the view" from under those moored boats.

Triple-digit speeds—in any way that SBONH defines it—are no way to take in the many natural wonders and scenic beauty of Lake Winnipesaukee.

2) http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/pub.../moorage_e.pdf

Your "documentation" concerns the ocean's marine environment in Canada.
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:25 AM   #171
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Today's February 18 www.laconiadailysun.com has a page 5 letter to the editor from the N H Camp Director's Association that strongly supports the 45/30 speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee and is a well written and intelligent letter.

The local newspapers have had quite a number of speed limits letters of late from a variety of people.

I know that Massachusetts has a state-wide boat speed limit of either 40 or 45, but here in NH the speed limit has been a lake-by-lake decision driven by local people. So, if Lake Winnisquam, the state's 3rd largest lake, wants a speed limit similar to Squam or Winnipesaukee, it would have to be locally putt-putt-putted.
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:06 AM   #172
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Today's February 18 www.laconiadailysun.com has a page 5 letter to the editor from the N H Camp Director's Association that strongly supports the 45/30 speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee and is a well written and intelligent letter.

The local newspapers have had quite a number of speed limits letters of late from a variety of people.

I know that Massachusetts has a state-wide boat speed limit of either 40 or 45, but here in NH the speed limit has been a lake-by-lake decision driven by local people. So, if Lake Winnisquam, the state's 3rd largest lake, wants a speed limit similar to Squam or Winnipesaukee, it would have to be locally putt-putt-putted.
Well written and intelligent? I beg to differ. "Our camps are protective cocoons for their positive skills, experiences and memories." Really? Is it beneficial to keep kids in cocoons instead of letting them experience the real world in a positive light. These camps are using scare tactics to promote support for the speed limit - nothing more. The kids are pawns and the camps should be ashamed for disseminating such trash. Keep digging the hole...you'll soon be to China.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:04 PM   #173
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Your "documentation" concerns the ocean's marine environment in Canada.
APS, I give you an open invite to open a specific thread on this topic. Your choice.
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:21 PM   #174
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BY Acres per Second.

Triple-digit speeds—in any way that SBONH defines it—are no way to take in the many natural wonders and scenic beauty of Lake Winnipesaukee.

That is such a STUPID statement. You are a foolish man. Talk about making things up, my goodness. I bet you have never, ever seen a boat go triple digit speed on Winnie in your life. Other then regulated boat races a few years ago. Speak the truth and others will listen, Talking BS, people think your a fool. But, I suppose if the shoe fits?? Just saying !!
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:56 AM   #175
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Below is a quote from David Barrett the head of the New Hampshire Marine Patrol and a long time opponent of speed limits. He is an "official" and he is quoting "data". Therefore there IS official data. I guess you did not educate yourself well enough.

Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed.
Could this 2008 "incident" have been one of those three fatalities?

(Sorry for the "all-caps", but that's how the article was posted.)

Quote:
IN ANOTHER INCIDENT EARLY SATURDAY MORNING, MARINE PATROL OFFICERS GOT A CALL SHORTLY BEFORE 12:30 FROM SOMEONE NEAR KONA COVE ON LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE THAT THEY’D HEARD A CRASH AND SOMEONE CRYING.

MOULTONBOROUGH POLICE OFFICERS AND THE MARINE PATROL DETERMINED THAT A PERSONAL WATERCRAFT BEING DRIVEN BY 24-YEAR-OLD BRIAN CROWLEY OF MOULTONBOROUGH HAD HIT A MOORED BOAT AND DAMAGED ITS SWIM PLATFORM. OFFICERS LOCATED CROWLEY AND HIS FEMALE PASSENGER RENEE GOGGIN ON SHORE, WHERE CROWLEY WAS ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH BOATING WHILE INTOXICATED.

- - - - - - - -

Renee Marie Goggin, 21, daughter of Vincent J. and Marie A. Goggin, died unexpectedly on Wednesday, July 22 at St. Joseph's Hospital in her home town of Nashua, New Hampshire. Renee's death was the result of a maritime accident as she was riding a PWC with a friend when it crashed into a pylon.

Renee was born on May 8, 1988 and was a graduate of the Academy at Swift River in Cummington, MA. She was attending Saint Leo as a major in elementary education. She loved children and decided that she wanted to be a teacher. Those who knew her say she was a sweet, fun-loving person who enjoyed music, dancing, and scrapbooking. Renee was also a former staff member of The Lions' Pride.

A memorial mass was held for her on Thursday, September 3 in the Student Community Center Boardroom in which Renee's mother Marie spoke of her daughter's life. Renee will be missed by all who loved her and knew her.
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Old 02-20-2011, 09:49 AM   #176
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Why can there not be any COMPROMISE?? Its like the western front in WWI... Both sides seem dug in and unwilling to budge!

I have no problem with a nighttime limit because thats when ALL of the accidents cited by WINNFABS have occured!

I have a problem with a daytime limit because there is ABSOLUTELY NO DATA WHATSOEVER to show that its necessary! No accidents! No anything! Just anecdotal stories about how the guy went by me too close and too fast! We all have stories like that! Because I like to putt around the lake, I have stories like that involving every kind of boat!

We need to find a compromise that we can all live with so we can put this issue to rest once and for all! The divisiveness on the lake is acidic!

Woodsy
Here's a compromise proposal: How about modifying the safe passage law? (You know, the law that's already on the books requiring 150' distance between the boat and any shore, swimraft, dock, swimmer, another boat, etc., when said boat is traveling more than headway speed.) Let's modify this law to state that any boat going over 45mph (this seems to be the trigger point according to speed limit supporters) be required to double the current 150' buffer and maintain a 300' distance between the boat and any shore, swimraft, dock, swimmer, another boat, etc. This is a distance of a football field and should be a welcome compromise from both sides. What say you speed limit supporters? Are you willing to consider this compromise or is it all or nothing for you? Let's hear it.
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:52 AM   #177
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Could this 2008 "incident" have been one of those three fatalities?

(Sorry for the "all-caps", but that's how the article was posted.)
APS, did the driver get drunk before or after the crash? Hint: I think we both know the answer, huh?
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:54 AM   #178
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Here's a compromise proposal: How about modifying the safe passage law? (You know, the law that's already on the books requiring 150' distance between the boat and any shore, swimraft, dock, swimmer, another boat, etc., when said boat is traveling more than headway speed.) Let's modify this law to state that any boat going over 45mph (this seems to be the trigger point according to speed limit supporters) be required to double the current 150' buffer and maintain a 300' distance between the boat and any shore, swimraft, dock, swimmer, another boat, etc. This is a distance of a football field and should be a welcome compromise from both sides. What say you speed limit supporters? Are you willing to consider this compromise or is it all or nothing for you? Let's hear it.
I don't want my everyday middle of the road bowrider to be limited to 45 MPH and turn a majority of the boats on the lake into law breakers. 45 MPH is too slow.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:18 AM   #179
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Well written and intelligent? I beg to differ. "Our camps are protective cocoons for their positive skills, experiences and memories." Really? Is it beneficial to keep kids in cocoons instead of letting them experience the real world in a positive light. These camps are using scare tactics to promote support for the speed limit - nothing more. The kids are pawns and the camps should be ashamed for disseminating such trash. Keep digging the hole...you'll soon be to China.
The New Hampshire Camp Directors Association represents 180 camps in the state. They voted unanimously to support speed limits, but what do they know.

You take one comment out of context and criticize it. They use their campers as "pawns" and "camps should be ashamed for disseminating such trash". Then in the next post you wonder why speed limit supporters are unwilling to talk compromise.

Funny how you never want to talk compromise when you think you have the votes in the legislature.

Tell me again why these camp directors don't have a clue? One would think they are fairly knowledgeable about safety, boating, the environment etc..
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:45 AM   #180
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The New Hampshire Camp Directors Association represents 180 camps in the state. They voted unanimously to support speed limits, but what do they know.
....
Tell me again why these camp directors don't have a clue? One would think they are fairly knowledgeable about safety, boating, the environment etc..
That's 180 camps in NH, not on Winnipesaukee. I'm also curious how many of those camps aren't even on water. My daughter spent a couple summers at horse camps and the only water was swimming pools. So let's agree that number is not germaine to the issues at hand with a Lake Winnipesaukee speed limit.

How many active summer camps are on Winnipesaukee? The obvious one's I know of. The camp directors are using a blanket statement so what applies to one lake doesn't apply to another.
Most activities I see from the camps are very near where the camps are located which makes sense for safety. The stay close to the camps not because of boats but to allow for greater supervision. Period.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:51 PM   #181
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The New Hampshire Camp Directors Association represents 180 camps in the state. They voted unanimously to support speed limits, but what do they know.

You take one comment out of context and criticize it. They use their campers as "pawns" and "camps should be ashamed for disseminating such trash". Then in the next post you wonder why speed limit supporters are unwilling to talk compromise.

Funny how you never want to talk compromise when you think you have the votes in the legislature.

Tell me again why these camp directors don't have a clue? One would think they are fairly knowledgeable about safety, boating, the environment etc..
Ironic that YOU are complaining about someone taking comments out of context. It is your trademark to do such. You invariably attempt to spin your way around a debate by using the same lame and transparent tactic. You infer that it's a fact that 180 camp directors know what's best for the boating public on Winni then complain that somone else takes a comment or fact out of context and posts it to support their argument?



Your agenda is really becoming transparent.
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Old 02-20-2011, 07:11 PM   #182
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Yankee, what is disgusting is how BI and other SL supporters are willing to distort and mislead to obtain their objective. We should get collections of signatures at the sand bars and popular swimming holes to start taking back the lake!

I have a good way to combat this but will reveal it only after the testimony is completed.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:01 AM   #183
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The New Hampshire Camp Directors Association represents 180 camps in the state. They voted unanimously to support speed limits, but what do they know.

You take one comment out of context and criticize it. They use their campers as "pawns" and "camps should be ashamed for disseminating such trash". Then in the next post you wonder why speed limit supporters are unwilling to talk compromise.

Funny how you never want to talk compromise when you think you have the votes in the legislature.

Tell me again why these camp directors don't have a clue? One would think they are fairly knowledgeable about safety, boating, the environment etc..
A typical knee-jerk reaction: "Comments taken out of context". I'm all for compromise but you guys want it your way and only your way. This lake is big enough for everyone to enjoy as they wish, but the camps, kayakers, sailboaters and other bands of elitists have pushed this way over the edge - again, under the auspices of "safety". That's the biggest red herring I've ever seen.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:54 AM   #184
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A typical knee-jerk reaction: "Comments taken out of context". I'm all for compromise but you guys want it your way and only your way. This lake is big enough for everyone to enjoy as they wish, but the camps, kayakers, sailboaters and other bands of elitists have pushed this way over the edge - again, under the auspices of "safety". That's the biggest red herring I've ever seen.
I have been pushing for a compromise for years. That was back when the watchword on the anti-SL side was "NO LIMITS". Kind of hard to compromise with that. But I tried, check out this post from more than three years ago. And there are lots more.


http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...oads#post62946
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:20 PM   #185
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I have been pushing for a compromise for years. That was back when the watchword on the anti-SL side was "NO LIMITS". Kind of hard to compromise with that. But I tried, check out this post from more than three years ago. And there are lots more.


http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...oads#post62946
I'm not for speed limits in the broads, but I do have to side with BI on this one. He was for a compromise back when and "NO LIMITS" was the battle cry! I was going to mention this a while back when the "compromise" conversation came back into play, but decided to stay out this for a while.
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:18 PM   #186
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Does anyone have the data showing the speeds that tickets were issued by MP for 2010?
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Old 02-25-2011, 07:00 AM   #187
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Does anyone have the data showing the speeds that tickets were issued by MP for 2010?
SBONH might be a good place to start; however, SBONH doesn't appear to know how many speeding tickets were issued in the first place. SBONH is quoted as saying, 21 tickets were issued, but had earlier stated 20.

Presently, that number has dropped down to 8; however, many of the NHMP's latest data for 2010 ("hat-tip" to VitaBene) are listed as "pending":



Does it matter anyway? Skip said it best, when he asserted "the effort is doomed".

In Concord, the word "compromise" has been thrown into the discussion—a compromise is never voiced from the position of a convincing argument.
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Old 03-27-2011, 05:00 PM   #188
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I would think that Mr. Thurston would know a little bit about how Lake Winnipesaukee has changed since the 45/30 speed limit became law.

This well written article is on page 4 of today's LDS:

Something had to change on big lake & speed limit did the trick
To the editor,
An open letter to New Hampshire
citizens:
My name is Jeffrey Thurston. My family and I have operated a marina and boat dealership on Lake Winnipesaukee for the last 39 years. During that time we all have seen boating take on different dimensions in the number, size, and speed at which boats and personal watercraft are operating. Prior to the implementation of the current lakewide 45/30 boating speed limits, it had been “uncomfortable” for many of the people I deal with as customers to go out on Lake Winnipesaukee.
The people who are uncomfortable are the people making bad decisions regarding their own actions. For example:
1. Cutting in front of boats that have the right of way only to have them arrive faster than you anticipated. Did they pay attention in operator licensing class?
2. Riding across the broads in a green kayak wearing a blue life jacket when there is a two foot chop. I think Kayaks should all be required to have one of those flags you see on incumbent bicycles operated on the road.
3. Swimming in the major travel lanes.
4. Thinking that the dotted lines around the markers on lake maps are the only travel lanes.
5. Thinking because they are towing a tube or a skier that they have the right of way and the 150 foot rule does not apply

Someone and something had to change, and that change this past season has been widely noted as the best thing to happen to family boating in a long time.I see that family boating every sunny day I am out. Overloaded boats, no life jackets in site, driver not following boating laws - these are the problems that need to be fixed
As many of you know, Winnipesaukee is comprised of more than 14 bays and over 250 islands. It is not one large bowl of water. It is up to the state to view the lake as a shared resource with emphasis on sustainability and the maximum diversity of users. The state’s own figures show there are more boats on the water today than in the past. As the density increases, it is difficult to imagine that unlimited speed could be tolerated, as long as boats stay an arbitrary 150-ft. apart.So does this mean the family boaters you speak of above that ride by at 35 miles per hour only 50 feet from me are safely operating?
With large off-shore type boats capable of speeds well in excess of 70 mph, 250+hp personal watercraft only 11ft. long, and low-profile fishing boats with 250+hp engines, how can anyone argue with the need to put a cap on how fast an individual boater can operate in the presence of others? This is particularly true when you consider how difficult it is to see some of these smaller PWC and boat types approaching. The argument becomes even more indefensible at night.
In all cases, the important sense of well-being for passengers on a boat subjected to others operating in such a manner is removed. Boat owners complained that the lake had lost its’ “FUN” feel when you were constantly wondering where and when something might come flying out at you and your family. Everyone I know who thinks the lake has lost its fun feel blames it on the speed limit. Is that the legacy New Hampshire wants for their best known lake? I certainly hope not, and I’m confident that a large majority of the public agrees.
This law worked well in New Hampshire these past seasons, as it has in many other states for years.The old law worked well too, it just didn't suite some peoples agendas This speed limits law will not stop ANYONE from boating, but will instill and reinforce a sense of what is proper behavior on the state’s most important waterway. Requiring an operators license was supposed to create proper behavior and it has not stopped the erratic behavior of those who should not be behind the wheel of a boat or any vehicle that goes not operate on a confined area like a road. Only the Legislature can preserve this reality, and we are counting on them to keep sustainable use of Lake Winnipesaukee a treasured achievement. Support the current boating 45/30 speed limits law without any changes by contacting your Senator and Representatives to vote down SB-27.
Jeffrey Thurston, President
Thurston’s Marina
Weirs Beach
See responses in blue above.
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Old 03-27-2011, 05:12 PM   #189
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It wouldn't surprise me a bit Sue Doe-Nym.

Do you think any of these Go Fast Boaters were being “reasonable and prudent under the existing conditions”?

Do you think that any of these Go Fast Boaters took into consideration the following Coast Guard “RULES” which is written in SB-27

(A) The state of visibility.
(B) The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels.
(C) The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions.
(E) The state of wind, sea, and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards.
(F) The draft in relation to the available depth of water.
Rusty - I am against the speed limit. However, I agree there were some shots in the video that showed a pre-speed limit law being broken. The problem was not the speed of the boats, it was the closeness. It is illegal to travel under 150 feet from another boat even if the other operator is your good buddy.

There existing law to control this says anything over headway speed requires 150 feet between the boats. That is probably the law that is broken the most on our lakes. And yes, the boats in the video appear to be breaking it. They would have been breaking it at 45 miles per hour as well so the speed limit is not fixing the problem.
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Old 03-27-2011, 05:52 PM   #190
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Well isn't that something, Thurston complaining about the safety of the lake and the speed limit. Hey how many times have I seen some yahoo outfitted with one of his rental boats, out there on the lake doing things far more dangerous and foolish than just going "fast"?

I say banning rentals is much more likely to have an affect on the overall safety of the lake.
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Old 03-28-2011, 05:21 PM   #191
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I say banning rentals is much more likely to have an affect on the overall safety of the lake.
Perhaps banning them entirely is going a bit too far but I don't see why they can't be required to produce a similar "license certification" as they would to rent a car!! You don't see National, Budget, Hertz or Avis renting a car to anyone without a valid driver's license! Renting a boat should be the same.

I still think the state should be licensing boat operators, just like they license operators of motorcycles, cars, trucks and airplane pilots, etc!
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:15 AM   #192
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I still think the state should be licensing boat operators, just like they license operators of motorcycles, cars, trucks and airplane pilots, etc!
I don't disagree with your premise, but a License to fly a plane is a whole different category. The State has nothing to do with getting a Pilots License. The FAA (Federal) requires prospective pilots to get flight instruction from FAA Certified Flight Instructors AND have a minimum number of flight hours AND pass a written exam AND take a rigerous "Behind The Wheel" exam with an FAA Check Pilot...NOT your flight instructor, before being issued a License.

The FAA minimum number of Flight hours required is 40, BUT in Real Life it usually runs better than 60 hours.....IN The Plane. BTW: That is for a Full Fledged Pilots License..not the so called "Sports Pilot License" which is a relatively new category which carries numerous RESTRICTIONS. NB
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:38 AM   #193
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Well isn't that something, Thurston complaining about the safety of the lake and the speed limit. Hey how many times have I seen some yahoo outfitted with one of his rental boats, out there on the lake doing things far more dangerous and foolish than just going "fast"?

I say banning rentals is much more likely to have an affect on the overall safety of the lake.
Not just Thurston's but Fay's as well. Seriously, I think it's time for a bill to require a full Boater's Education Certificate to rent a boat (or PWC), not just a 10 second "quiz" given by the renter himself. (I wonder how many have actually "flunked" the renter, passing up the nice rental fee? I don't feel safe on the lake with these loose-cannon, unexperienced, uneducated renters operating boats. What do you say Senator Forrester? Senator Bradley? Hello...are you out there?
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:21 PM   #194
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I don't disagree with your premise, but a License to fly a plane is a whole different category. The State has nothing to do with getting a Pilots License. The FAA (Federal) requires prospective pilots to get flight instruction from FAA Certified Flight Instructors AND have a minimum number of flight hours AND pass a written exam AND take a rigerous "Behind The Wheel" exam with an FAA Check Pilot...NOT your flight instructor, before being issued a License.

The FAA minimum number of Flight hours required is 40, BUT in Real Life it usually runs better than 60 hours.....IN The Plane. BTW: That is for a Full Fledged Pilots License..not the so called "Sports Pilot License" which is a relatively new category which carries numerous RESTRICTIONS. NB
Mea culpa......that one was a bad example but you know what I was getting at. Something more than a "quickie quiz" administered by the marina renting the boat should be required! Like Seaplane Pilot said, has a marina ever flunked someone with money to spend?
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:49 PM   #195
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Like Seaplane Pilot said, has a marina ever flunked someone with money to spend?
Wanna bet that more citations were issued to operators of rental boats for various infractions compared to the total number of speeding tickets handed out to ALL boaters?

I'd sure be curious to know just how many people "flunked". I agree w/ Seaplane no way anyone is going to turn away money that's sitting on the counter.
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Old 04-02-2011, 05:04 AM   #196
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Not just Thurston's but Fay's as well. Seriously, I think it's time for a bill to require a full Boater's Education Certificate to rent a boat (or PWC), not just a 10 second "quiz" given by the renter himself. (I wonder how many have actually "flunked" the renter, passing up the nice rental fee? I don't feel safe on the lake with these loose-cannon, unexperienced, uneducated renters operating boats. What do you say Senator Forrester? Senator Bradley? Hello...are you out there?
I think you are onto something with that suggestion!
Now is the time to get a bill going that will require a full Boater's Education Certificate to rent a boat (or PWC). No more of this 14 Day Temporary NH Safe Boating Certificate that is administrated by crooks who only want the money and could care less about the safety of honest hard working safe boaters. I’ll bet that there wasn’t one customer of these dishonest boat rental businesses that passed that test. We’ve got to get them off our Lakes before it’s too late. I’m sure statistics will show that the majority of tickets issued by the MP are to people who only had a temporary certificate.
Hey, how many times have I seen some yahoo outfitted with one of Shep Brown’s Boat Basin rental boats out there on the lake doing things far more dangerous and foolish than just going "fast"? I am going to pass the word around to boycott any boat rental business that allows anyone to rent a boat to someone who only has a temporary certificate. I’ll make sure to tell them that IMHO Shep Brown’ Boat Basin is the biggest offender.

Last edited by Rusty; 04-02-2011 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:35 AM   #197
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Wanna bet that more citations were issued to operators of rental boats for various infractions compared to the total number of speeding tickets handed out to ALL boaters?
I'll take that bet. Why? MP probably issues more warnings and tells renters "don't do that again" and gives them a free pass rather than issue a ticket.

The first order of business would be to get the MP to even record this level of detail. I doubt they do but maybe they'll suprise us.

In any event, it is ironic (err, moronic) that rental places would open their mouths about passing restrictive boating laws.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:02 AM   #198
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I think you are onto something with that suggestion!
Now is the time to get a bill going that will require a full Boater's Education Certificate to rent a boat (or PWC). No more of this 14 Day Temporary NH Safe Boating Certificate that is administrated by crooks who only want the money and could care less about the safety of honest hard working safe boaters. I’ll bet that there wasn’t one customer of these dishonest boat rental businesses that passed that test. We’ve got to get them off our Lakes before it’s too late. I’m sure statistics will show that the majority of tickets issued by the MP are to people who only had a temporary certificate.
Hey, how many times have I seen some yahoo outfitted with one of Shep Brown’s Boat Basin rental boats out there on the lake doing things far more dangerous and foolish than just going "fast"? I am going to pass the word around to boycott any boat rental business that allows anyone to rent a boat to someone who only has a temporary certificate. I’ll make sure to tell them that IMHO Shep Brown’ Boat Basin is the biggest offender.
Now you're barking up the right tree. Go after a real problem. Not sure about Shep's, but Thurstons is probably the worst offender.
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:51 AM   #199
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...let's see if I got this right...an INORDINATE amount of "licensed boaters" DON'T (or WON'T) follow the simple "Rules of the Road(water)" & operate their boats while under the influence...Enforce THESE rules/laws...Don't make NEW laws that are going to be "ignored" & NOT enforced...
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Old 04-11-2011, 01:02 PM   #200
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If John Steven were the governor, then this 55-mph increase would have a much better chance. With Governor Lynch, it's seems very likely that he will use his veto stamp and slap a fast veto on the bill if it passes the house.

Will it even pass the House? Nobody knows until the vote is held, but most likely there's plenty state reps who are keen to the governor's veto and will not care enough about the increase to 55 to be on the losing side when it will most likely get a veto, anyway. Probably, a number of undecided state reps will be no-shows on the day of the vote and essentially be punting on this issue.
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