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Old 05-22-2011, 05:51 AM   #1
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Exclamation Sunday UL article on Winni speed limits

There is an article in today's Sunday Union Leader referencing the perceived economic impact the economy and speed limits are having on a particular segment of the boating community.

The article can be read by pointing your browser HERE.
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:19 AM   #2
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That article reads like a WinnFabs statement. What happened to the days of balanced and investigative reporting? Edit: If you don't believe me, look at the placement of adjectives......

I have to laugh at the argument that boats that can do 45-50 MPH don't belong on the lake. That's probably 90% of the boats out on the lake.

There are a lot of Formulas still out on the lake. Those boats aren't cheap to buy. Those same boats have owners who pay serious money to slip and maintain them on the lake. A permanent SL (assuming it survives the test of time) will definitely re-shape the boat dealers sales models.

As far as the canoe/kayak argument, many of the WinnFabs crowd are too fat and have sagging lunch lady arms and can't even paddle, let alone fit in a canoe/kayak so I don't know why they play that card.
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:30 AM   #3
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Thumbs up Save the Children

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That article reads like a WinnFabs statement. What happened to the days of balanced and investigative reporting?

I have to laugh at the argument that boats that can do 45-50 MPH don't belong on the lake. That's probably 90% of the boats out on the lake.

As far as the canoe/kayak argument, many of the WinnFabs crowd are too fat and have sagging lunch lady arms and can't even paddle, let alone fit in a canoe/kayak so I don't know why they play that card.
Investigative reporting requires more work and more people That's not economically sound business.

I think the Speed Limit lovers care about the OTHERS. Think about the children, campers and novice boaters. They are scared and that notion helps sell newspapers. Give the kids fireworks to play with but don't let them see boats going faster than 45 mph. It will scar them for life if they survive the encounter.
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Old 05-22-2011, 10:15 AM   #4
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...just a "typical" Union Leader "news" article.....I enjoyed the comments more than the article...that Chase guy certainly gets around, and Thorpe, Chase & Karen must be, (to use their phrase), Butt-Buddies by the looks/sounds of things...amusing and entertaining reading...oh...and it's BAJA, not Baha...the entitlement comment sounds like the pot calling the kettle black...with regards to the "economics"...when was the last time you saw the docks at ANY of the waterfront restaurant's, or public docks, clogged-up/packed with canoes & kayaks.?..or sailboats.?...show me a picture...that's a phantom image you'll be chasing......rant over...carry-on..
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Old 05-22-2011, 11:34 AM   #5
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There's some obvious non boater comments there, but in general, it covers all of the feelings. I'm not sure how someone selling their performance boat and replacing it with a 44' cruiser helps out the kayakers and canoeurs

As usual, nobody dares address the MP having their budget cut rather severely this year.

One thing the article points out in spades. Something most people on both sides of the issue already knew. The SL law was specifically supported to do away with performance boats. Duh. It was an obvious culture clash, and one side one. It had little to do with speed. Note that these articles and comments always have mention of the Blizzard accident and the Littlefield one. But they never mention the facts of what happened, including the speed.

So now you will obviously see a decline in those performance boats on the lake. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the case. But to have people replacing them with large, enormous wake-producing boats is a plus? I've read many stories of performance boaters shifting to more family-oriented cruisers, all over the country. I've always dreaded heavy cruiser traffic and their enormous wakes.

I'm sure the SL supporters have other targets as well, and it won't take long to figure out who they are. But this is the way the lake is now, so be it. Take a long look at the NHMP statistics for Winni last year. Tremendous number of SL violations, in No Wake Zones. Very few for exceeding the actual SL in other areas. Now the MP will have a scarce presence to patrol the lake. Winnfabs and it's members scoffed at the 150" limit, saying it was a ridiculous joke of a law. It's actually the most important law on the books, if dealt with with common sense.

But this issue is over. Perhaps everyone can actually watch and go boating now, and figure out which problems really do need to be dealt with. There's very little MP to go around, so you'll have to figure out how to deal with it yourself.

Watch out for those huge wakes now.
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Old 05-22-2011, 06:09 PM   #6
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The article is typical of today's lake of decent reporting/journalism, some of the comments are down right ridiculous, and I get the impression that Thomas Thorpe needs serious medication and mental evaluation.
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:43 AM   #7
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And people on this forum thinks the conversations get a bit heated????
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:08 AM   #8
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The article is typical of today's lake of decent reporting/journalism, some of the comments are down right ridiculous, and I get the impression that Thomas Thorpe needs serious medication and mental evaluation.
Why don't you give him some of yours.
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:14 AM   #9
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Why don't you give him some of yours.
Rusty, What the H is your problem with me? you don't know me and I don't know you, Take a deep breath and stop the personal dumba$$ cracks.
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Old 05-23-2011, 12:54 PM   #10
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Thumbs down I'm not going to the ocean - period.

Me and my GFBL boat are staying right here on Winnipesaukee. I've been here for many years and intend to stay here, with my choice of powerboat, for many more. The day that they move the Mt. Washington to the ocean (the BIGGEST boat on the lake) is the day that I'll consider moving my boat to the ocean, but not until. I could be totally wrong about this, but I thought I recalled reading somewhere that Rusty McLear (owner of Church Landing, Mill Falls, Inn at Bay Point, among others) is an investor or part owner of the Mt. Washington, along with being a professed supporter of the speed limit. If so, let him put his money where his mouth is and move her to the ocean where, according to the speed limit lobby, "these big boats belong". She'd have a wonderful home in Portsmouth, making tours out to the Isles of Shoals.

In the meantime, if you see me going by on Winnipesaukee you can either choose to wave or give me the 1-finger salute. I'll return the wave or salute in kind.

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Old 05-23-2011, 01:38 PM   #11
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...I'll give ya the "One-Finger" salute......a THUMB's UP......
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:50 AM   #12
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I'm not sure how someone selling their performance boat and replacing it with a 44' cruiser helps out the kayakers and canoeurs
You should see the wake his big Regal throws even when it's cleanly on plane. It's enough to make me drop to near idle speed to cross it within 500 feet of the source.
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:37 AM   #13
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And did you notice what boat YOUR governor went out on to inspect and get alook at the supposed problems on Winnie. Thats right, the boat that has the LARGEST WAKE in the state of New Hampshire. He couldn't see it because he was to busy standing up front and waving. Here is a OPEN INVITATION TO GOVERNOR LYNCH, If you want to see the problems on Winnie, THE REAL PROBLEMS, Please contact me and I will take you out for a day. The governor is like Rusty, alot of mouth flap without any knowledge of what they are talking about. And yes Rusty, I am still waiting for your answer to my last question, but don't really expect one due to the FACT you have NO knowledge on this subject. Thanks.
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:01 AM   #14
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And did you notice what boat YOUR governor went out on to inspect and get alook at the supposed problems on Winnie. Thats right, the boat that has the LARGEST WAKE in the state of New Hampshire. He couldn't see it because he was to busy standing up front and waving. Here is a OPEN INVITATION TO GOVERNOR LYNCH, If you want to see the problems on Winnie, THE REAL PROBLEMS, Please contact me and I will take you out for a day. The governor is like Rusty, alot of mouth flap without any knowledge of what they are talking about. And yes Rusty, I am still waiting for your answer to my last question, but don't really expect one due to the FACT you have NO knowledge on this subject. Thanks.
Do you also think that 276 Honorable Members of the N.H. House of Representatives are also like OUR Governor and me. Why do you come to OUR state if you think we are all a bunch “ of mouth flap”?
The only thing that I need to know about speed is 45/30 and that’s not too hard to comprehend (for me anyway).

Just to see the many happy boaters out on OUR Lake the last couple of years makes it all worth-while to have fought for a speed Limit. Now everyone can set sail or hop into a kayak or canoe and feel safe that they won’t be used as speed bumps.

Isn’t life wonderful!
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:17 AM   #15
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Do you also think that 276 Honorable Members of the N.H. House of Representatives are also like OUR Governor and me. Why do you come to OUR state if you think we are all a bunch “ of mouth flap”?
The only thing that I need to know about speed is 45/30 and that’s not too hard to comprehend (for me anyway).

Just to see the many happy boaters out on OUR Lake the last couple of years makes it all worth-while to have fought for a speed Limit. Now everyone can set sail or hop into a kayak or canoe and feel safe that they won’t be used as speed bumps.

Isn’t life wonderful!
Don't come crying here when I pass by your canoe or kayak 150' away doing 45mph in my GFBL boat. That's right - 150'. Not 200', not 160', not even 151'. 150' - that's it, period.
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Old 05-24-2011, 01:18 PM   #16
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Now everyone can set sail or hop into a kayak or canoe and feel safe that they won’t be used as speed bumps.

Because of a SL, you will feel safe canoeing across the broads? A boat running at 50 will kill you but at 45 it won't run over your canoe or kayak? Really
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:44 PM   #17
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I feel no more safe in the kayak than before the SL. I would not be in the broads in my kayak. My kayak fear is the same fear as when I am in the 24 ft powerboat with my family. My fear is the idiot plugging along without respecting safe passage, DUI laws or not paying attention.

Maybe just me - I would much rather encounter a Donzi doing 80 with an exerienced captain who is informed, skilled, sober and paying attention than some person in a 19ft bowrider doing 30 lacking any one of these.

Speed, in of itself is not the big danger.
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:17 PM   #18
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Don't come crying here when I pass by your canoe or kayak 150' away doing 45mph in my GFBL boat. That's right - 150'. Not 200', not 160', not even 151'. 150' - that's it, period.
Thank you Little Bear.

As long as it's day time (remember it's 30 at night) and the conditions or area of the lake permits it, there is nothing wrong with going 45 MPH and staying 150ft away from any boater. In fact 46 MPH would be OK with me.

That is better than the 110+ MPH at 10 ft. away (or closer) that you probably used to do.

Boy some of those GFBL boaters came close to me prior to the Speed Limit. Zooooooooooooooom…what the heck was that?????????????
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Old 05-24-2011, 06:46 PM   #19
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Thank you Little Bear.

As long as it's day time (remember it's 30 at night) and the conditions or area of the lake permits it, there is nothing wrong with going 45 MPH and staying 150ft away from any boater. In fact 46 MPH would be OK with me.

That is better than the 110+ MPH at 10 ft. away (or closer) that you probably used to do.

Boy some of those GFBL boaters came close to me prior to the Speed Limit. Zooooooooooooooom…what the heck was that?????????????
You actually feel safer with 50' yachts bearing down on your layak? Get real! How about all those folks who never driven a boat renting pontoons on a temporary certificate that the dealers answers the questions for them? You don't have a clue. And now with the MP cut back to 45 officers patrolling over 900 bodies of water. The 'cowboys' have become outlaws and you feel safer on your kayak? WOW! You must be God.
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:18 PM   #20
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Smile Points of clarification.....

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You actually feel safer with 50' yachts bearing down on your layak? Get real! How about all those folks who never driven a boat renting pontoons on a temporary certificate that the dealers answers the questions for them? You don't have a clue. And now with the MP cut back to 45 officers patrolling over 900 bodies of water. The 'cowboys' have become outlaws and you feel safer on your kayak? WOW! You must be God.
Just to try and keep the debate on an even keel:

The NHMP has not been cut back to 45 officers. Barrett has stated that if the budget is passed as proposed that he would propose cutting back to that number. However, if the budget passes as proposed he will be under a new chain of command (if he is not eliminated completely, as some legislation is proposing) that could approach the issue in a whole different way. Until the budget is actually passed no one can proclaim what NHMP's final manning will be, or even what the NHMP's command structure could be, although there is no doubt in my mind it will be leaner than in year's past.

Additionally the NHMP does not, has not and could not "patrol" 900 bodies of water. The 900 figure comes from the number of waterbodies that they have jurisdiction over. However the vast majority of those 900 waterbodies, due to their size and access, would only see an NHMP officer if an event occurred that required their investigation.

It's easy to get wound up in these threads with all the rhetoric that flies from both sides, but it is important to try to keep perspective in what has actually occurred vice what is implied by Department Heads and other political types attempting to protect their respective budgets. The Devil is indeed in the details!
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:38 PM   #21
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You actually feel safer with 50' yachts bearing down on your layak? Get real! How about all those folks who never driven a boat renting pontoons on a temporary certificate that the dealers answers the questions for them? You don't have a clue. And now with the MP cut back to 45 officers patrolling over 900 bodies of water. The 'cowboys' have become outlaws and you feel safer on your kayak? WOW! You must be God.
That’s a pretty slanderous comment that you made about the HONEST and hardworking owners of Mariners around the Lakes region. Not only that but you are also saying that the people who take the test are allowing someone else to answer the questions for them and they receive the certificate.
I suggest that you either retract what you said or give us the name of the Mariners and people who took the test that you are talking about.
If you want to PM me with the names then that’s fine with me.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:57 PM   #22
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Question Statistics on rental boat operators....

Since I've stuck my toe back into these threads......

I keep hearing a lot of anecdotal evidence about the reckless operation of individuals operating rental craft utilizing temporary licenses. That begs two questions from me:

Has anyone compiled a list of accidents caused by or involving a rental boater operating with a temporary certificate?

Has anyone compiled a list of citations/warnings issued to rental boaters operating with temporary certificates versus citations/warnings issued to those captains with "regular" certificates?

I am in no way downplaying what some posters here perceive as a problem centered around rental boats and their operators but am just curious if any of that angst is based on solid statistical data.

Perhaps someone has already done that research and I have missed it amongst all the noise that some of these threads can generate.

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Old 05-24-2011, 10:43 PM   #23
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Do you also think that 276 Honorable Members of the N.H. House of Representatives are also like OUR Governor and me. Why do you come to OUR state if you think we are all a bunch “ of mouth flap”?
The only thing that I need to know about speed is 45/30 and that’s not too hard to comprehend (for me anyway).

Just to see the many happy boaters out on OUR Lake the last couple of years makes it all worth-while to have fought for a speed Limit. Now everyone can set sail or hop into a kayak or canoe and feel safe that they won’t be used as speed bumps.

Isn’t life wonderful!
Once those 44' cruiser wakes start hitting, preferably with the cruiser going around 22 mph, you'll feel just how wonderful life is you old fool
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Old 05-24-2011, 11:21 PM   #24
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...hey Skip...add alcohol to that list...Is there a "place" to gather that information.?..would make interesting reading...there is no denying that the "rental-boater" is, by definition, an "under"-educated boater...I would like that to change...the speed limit "is what it is"...maybe later we can change/adjust/compromise that as well...way I see it, if everyone drives the way they are supposed to,(rules of the road), we could pick on rusty more......btw..start behavin...there may be babhoons about......and they dislike our civility......nice to see they didn't scare VT off...lol...
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Old 05-25-2011, 06:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Since I've stuck my toe back into these threads......

I keep hearing a lot of anecdotal evidence about the reckless operation of individuals operating rental craft utilizing temporary licenses. That begs two questions from me:

Has anyone compiled a list of accidents caused by or involving a rental boater operating with a temporary certificate?

Has anyone compiled a list of citations/warnings issued to rental boaters operating with temporary certificates versus citations/warnings issued to those captains with "regular" certificates?

I am in no way downplaying what some posters here perceive as a problem centered around rental boats and their operators but am just curious if any of that angst is based on solid statistical data.

Perhaps someone has already done that research and I have missed it amongst all the noise that some of these threads can generate.

Thanks
I've never seen any stats on the subject. Perhaps people would just Feel safer if rental boats had a lower speed limit than other boats.

Seriously, laws have already been passed without reference to any data, or even contradictory data. Why on earth would anyone want to see statistics now? If you look at the statistics from last year, the NWZ's look like a raceway
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:59 AM   #26
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I've never seen any stats on the subject. Perhaps people would just Feel safer if rental boats had a lower speed limit than other boats.

Seriously, laws have already been passed without reference to any data, or even contradictory data. Why on earth would anyone want to see statistics now? If you look at the statistics from last year, the NWZ's look like a raceway
Exactly Steve. Statistics have never been provided to rationalize the need for a speed limit, so why start now?

It is all about perception. Some people perceive that a speed limit is needed because a few boats go too fast too close. Other people perceive that rental boats are the real problem.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:09 AM   #27
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Thank you Little Bear.

As long as it's day time (remember it's 30 at night) and the conditions or area of the lake permits it, there is nothing wrong with going 45 MPH and staying 150ft away from any boater. In fact 46 MPH would be OK with me.

That is better than the 110+ MPH at 10 ft. away (or closer) that you probably used to do.

Boy some of those GFBL boaters came close to me prior to the Speed Limit. Zooooooooooooooom…what the heck was that?????????????
Sorry Rusty, you have the wrong guy. My boat will only do 90mph. Furthermore, I'm a licensed captain who will forget more about navigation and boat handling than most people will ever learn.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:18 AM   #28
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Steve,

You just have to take a page or two out of the anti speed limit crowd play book.

Perhaps a letter to others who are alligned with your opinion like this to start things off:

Well I am one of many who is just plain scared of these rental boats and the bonzai buckaroos who pilot them. I kayak 9000 hours per year and every year these buckaroos get more bold! It’s a hostile environment out there, and someone will get killed or injured. It’s probably happened many times already. Clearly they need to be eliminated from the lake, as families will not vacation here anymore for fear of these Boat Rental Buckaroos. Tourism will suffer, and our property values will drop. We cannot allow that to happen!!

One cannot help but think of the children at the summer camps! Think of the HORROR that these kids have to endure. The camp directors that I know have told me that they will not even let the campers go near the water for fear of their safety. Clearly, something must be done to bring back the safer, family orientated environment to the lake we used to enjoy.

I will be contacting my state rep today and requesting what frightened boaters and land owners such as my self need to do to get a law passed to make us feel better. Banzai Buckaroos your days on this lake are numbered! Is anyone interested in organizing a political action committee to promote our agenda? Using our combined resources and political savvy will use deceit and fear to force our will over all naysayers!

We can call it Winni Families Against Rental boats Terrorizing Elitist Residents Safety

All interested parties please contact me.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:48 AM   #29
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...best post eva, Yankee...I spit Fruit-Loops everywhere.......
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:52 AM   #30
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Steve,

You just have to take a page or two out of the anti speed limit crowd play book.

Perhaps a letter to others who are alligned with your opinion like this to start things off:

Well I am one of many who is just plain scared of these rental boats and the bonzai buckaroos who pilot them. I kayak 9000 hours per year and every year these buckaroos get more bold! It’s a hostile environment out there, and someone will get killed or injured. It’s probably happened many times already. Clearly they need to be eliminated from the lake, as families will not vacation here anymore for fear of these Boat Rental Buckaroos. Tourism will suffer, and our property values will drop. We cannot allow that to happen!!

One cannot help but think of the children at the summer camps! Think of the HORROR that these kids have to endure. The camp directors that I know have told me that they will not even let the campers go near the water for fear of their safety. Clearly, something must be done to bring back the safer, family orientated environment to the lake we used to enjoy.

I will be contacting my state rep today and requesting what frightened boaters and land owners such as my self need to do to get a law passed to make us feel better. Banzai Buckaroos your days on this lake are numbered! Is anyone interested in organizing a political action committee to promote our agenda? Using our combined resources and political savvy will use deceit and fear to force our will over all naysayers!

We can call it Winni Families Against Rental boats Terrorizing Elitist Residents Safety

All interested parties please contact me.
That is a very well written letter by a member of the SBONH and I think that your board of directors should get the credit for it. The goal of your organization is safety and if you feel that boat rentals are a problem and should be eliminated then by all means turn this letter into a petition and get the ball rolling.
I think it is bonsai and not ”bonzai”…but if that is what you want to call it then why not give it a try.

Also I hope that someone will take this well thought out letter and send it to all the local newspapers just to show how the SBONH organization is doing their part to make us all safe.

Footnote:
I think it is time for the SBONH website to remove the defeated SB-27 article from their front page and replace it with this letter.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:54 AM   #31
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There are only 8,760 hours in a year.

8,784 if it is leap year.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:06 AM   #32
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...rusty...there's a space left blank at the bottom of the page for a name/ signature...put yours in and submit it...Yankee did all the work for ya......NHB, tucking tongue firmly in cheek......
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:14 AM   #33
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...rusty...there's a space left blank at the bottom of the page for a name/ signature...put yours in and submit it...Yankee did all the work for ya......NHB, tucking tongue firmly in cheek......
How come you have nothing to offer but childish jibba jabba?

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Old 05-25-2011, 04:53 PM   #34
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...best post eva, Yankee...I spit Fruit-Loops everywhere.......
I'm sorry about that, I should have started off with a disclaimer! And speaking of fruit loops, isn't it about for FFL to chime in with yet another needless post?

3 2 1....

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Footnote:I think it is time for the SBONH website to remove the defeated SB-27 article from their front page and replace it with this letter.

Actually written pretty quickly and not so well. The syntax is awkward if not incorrect in a few places and there's a typo or two.

And nope, never have been nor do I have any desire to be a SBONH member...I have stayed at more than a few Holiday Inns in my time--does that count?

Hey Bear Islander!! Yet another informative and scintillating post from you. Brilliant! Giddy up!!
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So what have we learned in the past two thousand years?

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of Obamunism should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest the Republic become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

. . .Evidently nothing.

(Cicero, 55 BC augmented by me, 2010 AD)

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Old 05-25-2011, 06:03 PM   #35
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decided to delete
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So what have we learned in the past two thousand years?

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of Obamunism should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest the Republic become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

. . .Evidently nothing.

(Cicero, 55 BC augmented by me, 2010 AD)
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:16 PM   #36
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Exactly Steve. Statistics have never been provided to rationalize the need for a speed limit, so why start now?

It is all about perception. Some people perceive that a speed limit is needed because a few boats go too fast too close. Other people perceive that rental boats are the real problem.
Just to clear this up, I'm not against rental boats. Years ago, it was darn near impossible to find one.

The whole point of these safety issues was to bring to light the issues that really need attention. Sure, there are definitely people in rental boats that shouldn't be, or at least those that don't like boneheads, would prefer they weren't there. I'm sure there are many that are fine as well. The point is, those preaching about speed didn't care. One of the most prolific posters not only made fun of the "useless" 150' limit, he proceeded to denigrate the Marine Patrol while he was at it. Many SL supporters cheered him, and still thank his classless posts.

Look, none of us want to legislate boating do death. Neither do we seek to pick on specific groups of boaters or types, just problem boaters. Pretty much, most long time boaters are in sync with the Marine Patrol, and other agencies. We don't want chaos, we don't want drunks. The Marine Patrol would have a full time job just stopping those people. Look at the NWZ violations. BI and a couple of others poo pooed the NWZ violations. How's that for safety around kids camps?
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:24 PM   #37
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Did you notice that --Sunset Bob-- has stopped posting and now Rusty is posting the same thing as Bob did. Just saying??? Rusty you never ever answered my question so I have to think you just are a Mouth Flapper like your Govenor, you have absolutely no knowledge about what you are speaking of. I have lived in NH all of my 55 years and NO, I do not think Lynch is my governor. He just happens to reside in the corner office. ( For Now )
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:33 PM   #38
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...hey tw...doesn't this post belong in the "Conspiracy, Duplicity, and Politics" section..?...you ruined the vibe......
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:08 PM   #39
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Did you notice that --Sunset Bob-- has stopped posting and now Rusty is posting the same thing as Bob did. Just saying??? Rusty you never ever answered my question so I have to think you just are a Mouth Flapper like your Govenor, you have absolutely no knowledge about what you are speaking of. I have lived in NH all of my 55 years and NO, I do not think Lynch is my governor. He just happens to reside in the corner office. ( For Now )
Why don’t you quit trying to investigate me and stick to the topic. Click HERE and you will see that Sunset Bob is still posting on the Winni forum and is a well-respected member. His last post was on 05-18-2011.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:00 PM   #40
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...hey rusty...pull my finger......
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:48 PM   #41
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And Yet, still no response. Your gums must really hurt with all the flapping Bob.

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