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Old 05-04-2021, 10:55 AM   #1
Tyler
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Default Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

FYI, thoughts? See attached link.


https://mcusercontent.com/29ff5285f0...al_minutes.pdf
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:38 PM   #2
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First I've heard of it, but if it will help in keeping the Pier 19 Store + Gas to stay in business then why not?
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:44 PM   #3
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I've not heard of this, but the current seaplane operator was selling his plane when I called asking about a flight last month, and he told me there was a new operator about to start up. I'm guessing this would be him/her and think it's a great idea.

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Old 05-04-2021, 02:50 PM   #4
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Cant see it "Flying". Way to much boat traffic. Winter time the bay is pretty mobbed with bob houses. I would think with the Fire Dept boat and Game Warden boat there EMS response times could be impacted.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:54 PM   #5
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Perhaps I’m missing the market on this, as I’m not involved in aviation. But is the store something that would attract small aircraft to warrant this? It’s a nice store and all, but are people going to literally fly in to go to it?

And for the fuel aspect, could the gas dock even handle aircraft? I don’t know much about aviation, but I would have thought it would be different fuel than for boats, and I don’t think the store has more than one tank, but may be wrong.

Last, I don’t see the concept of using the town pier as feasible. Folks already complain that the town pier is filled and hard to use. Adding planes doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. It also seems part of the concept might be to permit a plane ride business to keep a plane at the town dock? The boats of town residents can’t be docked overnight; at the pier. I don’t see how a plane should be treated differently. And the “alternative” option of building an extension of the existing gas dock is a dead end—the store doesn’t own the docks, the Pier 19 condo association does. Not to mention all of the state shoreland permit issues that this would raise.

I would be interested to hear what folks in the aviation community think about this, particularly for the winter. Would there be a use for a second winter runway, in addition to Alton? And 19 mile bay has a lot of ice fishing activity. How is that going to work?

Seems to me this concept raises way more questions than have been contemplated, and that this was all attempted to be done under the radar. The board of selectmen are right that this needs to be noticed for public hearing before the town agrees to anything on this.
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:06 PM   #6
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With all the hell raised over the noise generated from Camp Belknap I can only imagine how mental the nearby residents will get with the sound of planes landing and taking off.

Might help Mr. Owen's chickens lay eggs though
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Old 05-04-2021, 03:37 PM   #7
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Default Epic just registered as a business on April 21

I don't know what to make of it. From the few things I found online, couldn't tell whether Epic is doing scenic tours with its own plane(s) or the airport is intended for use of private planes.

Owner is Thomas Wood

Phone is 603-724-9104


https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/co...ne-adventures/

https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/co...england-llc-2/

https://airnav.com/airport/NH64

Their Instagram has a few photos of planes, no explanation or any narrative:
ID:: epic_seaplane_adventures
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:38 PM   #8
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I guess i'll be the guy that throws the concerns back at the forum.
Boat traffic: There isn't any at the Alton runway? During the summer it is always full of boats, I have actually seen 1 plane in the many years that I have been on the lake land in Alton Bay in the summer.
Bob Houses: Have you seen Alton during a cold winter? It's packed with fisherman and houses (and campers). They just mark the runway and hope that people don't fish on it.
As for the gas and such, not sure why they would need/want gas there. Alton, and Paugus Bay Water runway doesn't have gas (that I know of). So it would be interesting to see what comes of that aspect.
Just something to think about though.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:39 PM   #9
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With all the hell raised over the noise generated from Camp Belknap I can only imagine how mental the nearby residents will get with the sound of planes landing and taking off.

Might help Mr. Owen's chickens lay eggs though
Here on Winnisquam I listen to planes each Sunday morning practicing touching down and taking off. Actually we enjoy watching them

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Old 05-05-2021, 09:06 AM   #10
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A few things to note:

1) the certificate is for a private base/runway, as opposed to a public facility and this will require all fly in pilots to obtain prior permission to land. This will minimize traffic.

2) the nh review only looks at the plan/site with regard to approach, departure, and runway size and fixed obstructions. It does not evaluate things like boat traffic, noise, wildlife habitat. Things outside their review parameters are the responsibility of other state/local agencies.

3) it is the responsibility of the pilot of a float plane to determine safe landing conditions and to make that determination taking into account boat traffic. The plane must get out of the way of the boat, not the other way around unless it is an emergency. If the pilot operates unsafely he/she can get their ticket pulled. (In this age of cell phones unsafe operation is pretty easy to document. If only 1 plane is using the base the landing/takeoff may be slightly delayed but the boat traffic I’ve observed in the bay isn’t significant enough to prevent safe operation.

4) The FAA has final review/say and is the agency that issues the final operational permit.

That said, I don’t like the idea. I think waterfront residents on the mainland & Farm & Chase Islands will be unfairly burdened with a tremendous amount of noise. Seaplane takeoffs at 100% throttle are very loud.

I think there is the potential for damage & injury from prop wash for the boats and people at the Pier 19 Association especially if the loading/parking dock ends up as a new pier off of the existing gas dock (which I believe is owned by the store, not the Association.) However, the store is a member of the Association and must be subject to the terms of the Association documents which may not allow the operation. The state may also not allow the installation of a new dock.

I can’t see the town allowing the use of the public dock for commercial purposes plus, the overhang of the float plane wing could interfere with truck/ambulance access to the fire boat.

There is also the question of the Loon population in the bay. While boats, even at high speed, can quickly maneuver to avoid them an airplane on approach/landing/takeoff doesn’t have that luxury.

My hope is that residents of 19 Mile Bay attend the town meetings on the subject to let their voices be heard and that others concerned voice their opinions to the FAA and other state agencies that may be involved in the final decision.


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Old 05-06-2021, 03:23 PM   #11
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Default Not very intrusive

As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.
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Old 05-06-2021, 04:16 PM   #12
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As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.
When a plane is in the water it has to abide by the boating laws as it is considered a boat until in the air. So tell me when a plane is doing 80MPH while still in the water at takeoff how is this legal when the speed limit for boats is 45MPH?
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Old 05-06-2021, 04:55 PM   #13
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When a plane is in the water it has to abide by the boating laws as it is considered a boat until in the air. So tell me when a plane is doing 80MPH while still in the water at takeoff how is this legal when the speed limit for boats is 45MPH?
Speed limit does not apply to a float plane. The same goes for a no wake zone. A float plane doesn’t have to abide by a no wake zone.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-ham...ction270-13-a/
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Old 05-06-2021, 05:26 PM   #14
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Speed limit does not apply to a float plane. The same goes for a no wake zone. A float plane doesn’t have to abide by a no wake zone.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-ham...ction270-13-a/
Thanks, that is what I thought but could not find the law/code stating that.
I see you takeoff from mirror lake on occasion, pretty cool.
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:13 PM   #15
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Like RBG, I don't quite get the logic. Lots of boat traffic. Plus, why there? It's not any sort of destination, and there are other nearby places with much less potential conflict, such as Mirror Lake, as mentioned
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Old 05-06-2021, 06:31 PM   #16
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Like RBG, I don't quite get the logic. Lots of boat traffic. Plus, why there? It's not any sort of destination, and there are other nearby places with much less potential conflict, such as Mirror Lake, as mentioned
The store owner wants to partner with epic seaplane adventures and run a scenic airplane tours business from this location is my understanding.
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Descant View Post
As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.

Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc.

After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area.
I agree, and about the helicopters, there's a few that I know of in the Alton area. I can think of 3 houses off the top of my head. They buzz the Broads often.
If it is truely just for a private plane, than more than likely it will only be for 1 plane? My friend lives on a small pond that has TONs of wake surfing boats that are always out on the pond, and a sea plane that takes off and lands at least every night for a short flight around. They never have any issues with "sharing" the water with the plane.
People need to stop worrying about change of things they are not used.
As for the docking at those docks, ok, I'm interested in that aspect of how that works. I don't know much about that area and the docks. But as for the "noise" and the "traffic" that's not an issue.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:40 PM   #18
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With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.
Last August, this is how a potential boat buyer made his way to Shep Brown's to take a boat for a test ride.
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Old 05-07-2021, 02:29 AM   #19
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Last August, this is how a potential boat buyer made his way to Shep Brown's to take a boat for a test ride.
That emblem is the crest for Porsche automobiles. I'd like one, but I own two!

As for boat traffic, Dr. Libby flew a bigger floatplane out of the same area.

Although they can be moored for short periods, a floatplane would be happiest kept at a wooden RAMP. The gasoline hose would need to be long enough to reach the floatplane's wings.
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Old 05-07-2021, 08:44 AM   #20
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That emblem is the crest for Porsche automobiles. I'd like one, but I own two!

As for boat traffic, Dr. Libby flew a bigger floatplane out of the same area.

Although they can be moored for short periods, a floatplane would be happiest kept at a wooden RAMP. The gasoline hose would need to be long enough to reach the floatplane's wings.
The helicopter is a Robinson R44. No idea why there is a Porsche emblem on it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:02 AM   #21
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Tough to negotiate a discount when you arrive via chopper
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Old 05-07-2021, 10:44 AM   #22
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I wonder if he will offer instruction there? I would sure like to add water wings to my cert someday. Can't think of a more fun and convenient place to do it.
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Old 05-07-2021, 03:03 PM   #23
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Video of selectmen’s meeting :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys


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Old 05-07-2021, 06:49 PM   #24
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The store owner wants to partner with epic seaplane adventures and run a scenic airplane tours business from this location is my understanding.
That is exactly their plan.
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Old 05-07-2021, 07:00 PM   #25
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I guess i'll be the guy that throws the concerns back at the forum.
Boat traffic: There isn't any at the Alton runway? During the summer it is always full of boats, I have actually seen 1 plane in the many years that I have been on the lake land in Alton Bay in the summer.
Bob Houses: Have you seen Alton during a cold winter? It's packed with fisherman and houses (and campers). They just mark the runway and hope that people don't fish on it.
As for the gas and such, not sure why they would need/want gas there. Alton, and Paugus Bay Water runway doesn't have gas (that I know of). So it would be interesting to see what comes of that aspect.
Just something to think about though.
The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I can't see the town ever approving the use of Union Wharf. That being said, planes will now need to use one of the gas dock slips at the store. In order for that to be permitted, an L shaped extension needs to be added to the current slip at the gas dock. It will have to be installed along the shoreline, parallel to Route 109. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.
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Old 05-07-2021, 09:05 PM   #26
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The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I can't see the town ever approving the use of Union Wharf. That being said, planes will now need to use one of the gas dock slips at the store. In order for that to be permitted, an L shaped extension needs to be added to the current slip at the gas dock. It will have to be installed along the shoreline, parallel to Route 109. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.
This is exactly why this proposal needs to be disclosed to the public, in detail, and addressed at a public hearing. Instead, the proponents tried to get the town to approve an entirely ambiguous proposal without any input from town residents that are directly impacted, and without having an actual plan in place that could be properly considered by the town and its residents. By acknowledging that this needs to go to a public hearing, the board of selectmen appears to understand that this will be a significant issue to not only the town residents that own docks at Pier 19, but all residents that own property around or that use Pier 19.
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Old 05-08-2021, 07:18 AM   #27
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The width of Alton Bay is much greater than Nineteen Mile Bay. I don't think any plane landing in Alton Bay comes that close to docked boats or a county road.
I'll agree to disagree on that one. The area around the Gazebo is pretty narrow and has a ton of traffic right next to houses. And yes, I have been there in the summer when a sea plane lands there.
Like I said, the issue I see is the docking, and I did state I know nothing about that part over there.
But the issue with the noise and such I just don't see an issue. There's bigger issues around to worry about than a few seconds of a take off.
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Old 05-08-2021, 08:06 AM   #28
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I don't have a problem with the proposed business, the problem I have is the store owner is trying to get the town to modify a town wharf which is owned by the residents of Tuftonboro to accommodate her business without any input from the towns taxpayers. It appears the selectmen to their credit recognize that so we will see what happens going forward.

The store owner has the option of going through the permit process with the state to put an extension on her dock that she owns. This IMO makes much more sense but will obviously take some time and considerable cost to her. Not sure what the condo dock association members think of that idea, time will tell.
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:12 AM   #29
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I don't have a problem with the proposed business, the problem I have is the store owner is trying to get the town to modify a town wharf which is owned by the residents of Tuftonboro to accommodate her business without any input from the towns taxpayers. It appears the selectmen to their credit recognize that so we will see what happens going forward.

The store owner has the option of going through the permit process with the state to put an extension on her dock that she owns. This IMO makes much more sense but will obviously take some time and considerable cost to her. Not sure what the condo dock association members think of that idea, time will tell.
Exactly. The whole thing has this whiff of the proponents asserting it's not really going to make a difference to anybody, when, obviously, airplanes landing while make a significant difference to many
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:40 AM   #30
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I can imagine the same type of uproar occurred when the Weirs Seaplane Base was established many decades ago. And as far as I know, public docks are leased to private enterprises in several towns around the lake, so it’s not unprecedented.
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Old 05-08-2021, 10:58 AM   #31
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I can imagine the same type of uproar occurred when the Weirs Seaplane Base was established many decades ago. And as far as I know, public docks are leased to private enterprises in several towns around the lake, so it’s not unprecedented.
You are entitled to your opinion, so are those opposed to this. I am only opposed to the use of Union Wharf for this business. As far as I know the store owner or the scenic airplane tours business, epic seaplane adventures has not asked the town to lease space at Union Wharf. From the video I watched of the selectmen's work session on 4/26/2021 where the owner and yourself asked the town to modify the wharf there was never a mention of leasing space for this private enterprise. Perhaps you have info to the contrary.
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Old 05-08-2021, 11:43 AM   #32
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You are entitled to your opinion, so are those opposed to this. I am only opposed to the use of Union Wharf for this business. As far as I know the store owner or the scenic airplane tours business, epic seaplane adventures has not asked the town to lease space at Union Wharf. From the video I watched of the selectmen's work session on 4/26/2021 where the owner and yourself asked the town to modify the wharf there was never a mention of leasing space for this private enterprise. Perhaps you have info to the contrary.
I have no dog in this fight, but simply stated a fact that public docks are leased out to private businesses. I agree that everything should be above board. I have nothing to do with this business.
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Old 05-08-2021, 01:09 PM   #33
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I have no dog in this fight, but simply stated a fact that public docks are leased out to private businesses. I agree that everything should be above board. I have nothing to do with this business.
I agree with what you said about public dock leasing, no question, just do not think it is a good idea for this particular wharf.
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:34 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy View Post
A few things to note:

1) the certificate is for a private base/runway, as opposed to a public facility and this will require all fly in pilots to obtain prior permission to land. This will minimize traffic.

2) the nh review only looks at the plan/site with regard to approach, departure, and runway size and fixed obstructions. It does not evaluate things like boat traffic, noise, wildlife habitat. Things outside their review parameters are the responsibility of other state/local agencies.

3) it is the responsibility of the pilot of a float plane to determine safe landing conditions and to make that determination taking into account boat traffic. The plane must get out of the way of the boat, not the other way around unless it is an emergency. If the pilot operates unsafely he/she can get their ticket pulled. (In this age of cell phones unsafe operation is pretty easy to document. If only 1 plane is using the base the landing/takeoff may be slightly delayed but the boat traffic I’ve observed in the bay isn’t significant enough to prevent safe operation.

4) The FAA has final review/say and is the agency that issues the final operational permit.

That said, I don’t like the idea. I think waterfront residents on the mainland & Farm & Chase Islands will be unfairly burdened with a tremendous amount of noise. Seaplane takeoffs at 100% throttle are very loud.

I think there is the potential for damage & injury from prop wash for the boats and people at the Pier 19 Association especially if the loading/parking dock ends up as a new pier off of the existing gas dock (which I believe is owned by the store, not the Association.) However, the store is a member of the Association and must be subject to the terms of the Association documents which may not allow the operation. The state may also not allow the installation of a new dock.

I can’t see the town allowing the use of the public dock for commercial purposes plus, the overhang of the float plane wing could interfere with truck/ambulance access to the fire boat.

There is also the question of the Loon population in the bay. While boats, even at high speed, can quickly maneuver to avoid them an airplane on approach/landing/takeoff doesn’t have that luxury.

My hope is that residents of 19 Mile Bay attend the town meetings on the subject to let their voices be heard and that others concerned voice their opinions to the FAA and other state agencies that may be involved in the final decision.


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100% agree with your take. We all can't let this pass under the radar.
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Old 05-16-2021, 10:12 PM   #35
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No seaplane dock on union wharf!
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Old 05-16-2021, 10:41 PM   #36
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No seaplane dock on union wharf!
No

No I agree. But what about allowing seaplane dock or any boat dock off the proposed gas docks of the store? Very simple relieve the pressure of the store demanding to use their own association docks. which will not happen
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Old 05-17-2021, 03:33 AM   #37
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The helicopter is a Robinson R44. No idea why there is a Porsche emblem on it.
Leased by Porsche-USA?
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Old 05-17-2021, 05:57 AM   #38
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It's funny how people hate change. Everybody was upset when they closed the airport in Wolfeboro, but I bet if they wanted to open another one now everybody would have a fit.
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Old 05-17-2021, 07:48 AM   #39
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I wonder if 19 Mile Bay was selected as a Seaplane Base and Runway because of the easy access to Gasoline?

Personally, I would think that 20 Mile Bay would be a better location for a Seaplane Base because of lessor boat traffic, however there is no gasoline access.
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Old 05-17-2021, 08:26 AM   #40
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There is no “easy access” to gasoline. Air planes need aviation gasoline (avgas)which contains tetraethyllead which was the anti-knock additive removed from motor vehicle gas (mogas)in the 70’s because of pollution concerns. The boat gas sold at Pier 19 is mogas. To serve boats and planes they would have to install another tank. I doubt the DES would permit a second underground tank on the lake side of the road and there are few, if any, fire marshals who will permit an above ground gas tank due to fire concerns. I doubt the store would convert their existing tank to a gas and lose the boat gas business.


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Old 05-17-2021, 01:52 PM   #41
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I guess one question would be despite having a gas pump there, unless they are pumping a 100LL into the boats, they will need the infrastructure (ie: a separate fuel farm) to fuel the aircraft. Unless something has dramatically changed, I believe an aircraft would be very unhappy drinking anything but a 100LL.

Lets not forget, when I park my Turbine Beaver on floats out there, I will need a fuel farm for Jet-A too.
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Old 05-17-2021, 08:42 PM   #42
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The store owner and her pilot friend went to the town selectmen to ask to modify the town owned Union Wharf Pier. They wanted to cut down some pilings and even offered to do it themselves! The nerve! They never asked for permission
or offered to lease it. It’s almost like they thought they were entitled to use it. If they want to park the plane at their own gas dock, fine. I could care less. But I will mobilize all my resources to stop them from using the town pier. It’s not right. I am really starting to get a little tired of this store owner thinking they can throw their money around and block access to the docks. I and my friends will no longer shop there.
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Old 05-18-2021, 09:59 AM   #43
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Whole thing seems like a dumb idea to me. Anyone with half a brain would come to the same conclusion, having planes and boats in a relatively confined area is an accident waiting to happen. The noise will not be welcomed - again if folks that are in the area complain of the noise that camp Belknap kids make this is going to be far louder and potentially offensive. Expecting or asking the town to make special docking accommodations for planes where there is no direct benefit to the town makes no sense.

Finally the store, hate to say it but the owners are screwed as they own a building, a postage stamp piece of property and have little to no control over their surroundings, not even the parking lot. That is and will always be a problem they cannot solve.
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Old 05-18-2021, 11:06 AM   #44
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Add to the fact that they paid way too much for it and sunk another way too much amount in the renovation, the return on investment must be a 50 plus year schedule!
Oh it would have been so nice if Skelly’s went in there.
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Old 05-18-2021, 11:42 AM   #45
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I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.

Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.
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Old 05-18-2021, 12:35 PM   #46
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I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.

Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.
I agree with you. (As I've said before, I have nothing to do with this seaplane business). Lakes Region Seaplane Tours operated for many years in Paugus Bay, which is exponentially busier than 19 Mile Bay no matter what the day or time of day. I'm not aware of any close calls or incidents between the seaplane and boaters during the entire time they operated in Paugus. Therefore, the "safety" argument is not based in reality. Some interesting reading can be found here:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...lane_handbook/
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Old 05-18-2021, 01:01 PM   #47
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OMG!! They asked the Board of Selectmen ! The HOROR ! This obviously comes as a surprise, but if you want to do business or otherwise use town property for a picnic or a parade or anything else, you have to go through town officials. In this case, that's the BOS. So the seaplane operator did exactly what he was supposed to do. The BOS decided to plan a public hearing with notice to residents. They did exactly what they were supposed to do.
Being angry with either side for doing the proper thing is just plain silly.
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Old 05-18-2021, 01:08 PM   #48
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Whole thing seems like a dumb idea to me. Anyone with half a brain would come to the same conclusion, having planes and boats in a relatively confined area is an accident waiting to happen. The noise will not be welcomed - again if folks that are in the area complain of the noise that camp Belknap kids make this is going to be far louder and potentially offensive. Expecting or asking the town to make special docking accommodations for planes where there is no direct benefit to the town makes no sense.

Finally the store, hate to say it but the owners are screwed as they own a building, a postage stamp piece of property and have little to no control over their surroundings, not even the parking lot. That is and will always be a problem they cannot solve.
Spot on! Could'nt have said it better. The Seaplane thing is just another idea to try to get people there and make the store prosper. Heck I want them to succeed but IMO its just a matter of time. Nothing has survived well for years there and now with less of a docking area and minimal parking the writing is on the wall. Keeping that place open in the winter is just going to net a loss. Not enuff business/people around for that.
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Old 05-18-2021, 02:20 PM   #49
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They didn't just go to the selectmen, They got the state permit then they went to the selectmen in an obvious attempt to avoid going to public hearing which they know will not pass. Even one of the selectmen said to them it seems like you are doing this a bit underhanded. He also said it would have been better to come to them first. Thankfully our selectmen see through her entitled ways. Just because you have money, you do not make the rules.

I am not against the seaplanes, just using town owned property for her money making dreams.
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Old 05-18-2021, 03:04 PM   #50
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They didn't just go to the selectmen, They got the state permit then they went to the selectmen in an obvious attempt to avoid going to public hearing which they know will not pass. Even one of the selectmen said to them it seems like you are doing this a bit underhanded. He also said it would have been better to come to them first. Thankfully our selectmen see through her entitled ways. Just because you have money, you do not make the rules.

I am not against the seaplanes, just using town owned property for her money making dreams.
this bay is everyones! Them asking the town for a sea plane dock spot, is like me asking the town for spot to leave my jet ski . The madness that will happen during the winter with fisherman I can only imagine...it is the most popular bay during the winter months. Very dangerous for a runway.
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Old 05-18-2021, 03:31 PM   #51
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this bay is everyones! Them asking the town for a sea plane dock spot, is like me asking the town for spot to leave my jet ski
Have to disagree. This is very different. What is being proposed (at least until the selectmen rightfully pointed out the problems with it) is a commercial use of part of the town wharf, without any compensation to the town, without putting it out to bid, and without addressing substantial liability issues if god forbid there was an accident. And that is before addressing the real practical issues of emergency vehicle access the selectmen are concerned about.

I would suggest that folks interested in this issue take the time to watch the YouTube video of the selectmen’s meeting where this was discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys

What struck me most was the blank check the store and plane operator wanted from the town, and without any actual plans or proposals in place. There was lots of bobbing and weaving around what it would be used for, and pushing to get the selectmen to approve it without any public input, even after the selectmen repeatedly raised the problems with doing so. There was discussion of things from seaplane festivals, to potential private charters dropping off area residents commuting from Boston or NYC, to individual planes coming for an ice cream, and countless other potential uses of the seaplane base. And most perplexing to me is that the store owner—who seems to have no aviation experience—would be the one that makes decisions about which planes can and can’t land and dock at the town wharf. We’re supposed to believe that the store is going to tell a plane coming to do business at the store not to land because the bay is too busy?

And as for the potential alternative of the store building additional dock area next to the gas pumps, it would be interesting to see actual plans for such a proposal. One would need to see the proximity to the boat slips and gas dock where boats gas up (not planes, at least not without installing a second fuel tank/pump, that almost certainly would not be permitted by the state), as there are unquestionably safety issues there. And then you have a state highway right there, and you can’t have wings of airplanes hanging over the highway. So lots of unanswered questions, and that is all, of course, before whatever state process would be required for the shoreland issues.

And while we’re on the discussion of the store adding additional dock space, if that is a real possibility, why the heck is the store trying to shake down the dock owners to use their private dock area for store customers if the store could just build their own additional docking area?
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Old 05-18-2021, 04:24 PM   #52
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I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.

Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.
I have no vested interest in the area so I don't care either way just speaking from a position of logic and reasonable thinking here. I don't exactly know the location of the proposed landing area BUT if it is anywhere in the bay it just seems to small to be safe. Consider the entrance is not exactly huge, if anything it's a bit of a pinch point. Plane captains can be as safe as can be but think about the moron boaters who either are unaware or don't care a plane is on final and thinks they have the right of way. I'm not a pilot but I would imagine there is only so much that can be done to quickly react in a wave off situation.

If the landing strip is outside the bay with the planes taxi in that seems a little more safe, again think worst case scenario where a plane comes in and for whatever reason has a problem and crashes - how much open area is there free and clear of people, houses, boats, etc... to where no collateral damage is done, or is unlikely.

Ideally it would make sense to demark the landing area so at least boaters would be aware of the landing area. Not that all boaters understand the already existing markers on the lake just sayin.

Far as the dock and land situation it's a complete mess I can't see how well it would work trying to get planes into that town dock even if the town said OK. Seems like it's a liability nightmare to be honest. Now having them park along the shore\beach along 109 would make more sense to me but I don't know if that is possible. At least it would keep the planes and boats from getting mixed up and avoid a possible accident.

Frankly I can see it possible it could work but much thought would need to be given to the logistics.
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Old 05-18-2021, 05:07 PM   #53
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Have to disagree. This is very different. What is being proposed (at least until the selectmen rightfully pointed out the problems with it) is a commercial use of part of the town wharf, without any compensation to the town, without putting it out to bid, and without addressing substantial liability issues if god forbid there was an accident. And that is before addressing the real practical issues of emergency vehicle access the selectmen are concerned about.

I would suggest that folks interested in this issue take the time to watch the YouTube video of the selectmen’s meeting where this was discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys
Yes I agree I was just overly simplifying the comparison. Either scenario is ridiculous in my opinion.

Thank you for the video share. I combed through a portion of it, but here are my favorite quotes

"this is a process, so I was just hoping that I can get your (town) help and just get going to not lose the season"
"you help me I help you"
"one way or another we are going to do it"

Sounds like entitlement to me. We all have to go through the process for a dock and no one deserves special treatment from the town. Especially a commercial business. Selectman need to kill this. Entertaining it is idiotic and disservice to the residents of tuftonboro
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Old 05-18-2021, 06:06 PM   #54
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Now we all are seeing how entitled the store owner thinks she is. Watch video of the meeting very closely. Her comments are sickening. She thinks cus she overpaid for a store that will never return her investment it is somehow the town’s fault and the town owes this to her?
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Old 05-19-2021, 10:09 AM   #55
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I have no vested interest in the area so I don't care either way just speaking from a position of logic and reasonable thinking here. I don't exactly know the location of the proposed landing area BUT if it is anywhere in the bay it just seems to small to be safe. Consider the entrance is not exactly huge, if anything it's a bit of a pinch point. Plane captains can be as safe as can be but think about the moron boaters who either are unaware or don't care a plane is on final and thinks they have the right of way. I'm not a pilot but I would imagine there is only so much that can be done to quickly react in a wave off situation.

If the landing strip is outside the bay with the planes taxi in that seems a little more safe, again think worst case scenario where a plane comes in and for whatever reason has a problem and crashes - how much open area is there free and clear of people, houses, boats, etc... to where no collateral damage is done, or is unlikely.

Ideally it would make sense to demark the landing area so at least boaters would be aware of the landing area. Not that all boaters understand the already existing markers on the lake just sayin.

Far as the dock and land situation it's a complete mess I can't see how well it would work trying to get planes into that town dock even if the town said OK. Seems like it's a liability nightmare to be honest. Now having them park along the shore\beach along 109 would make more sense to me but I don't know if that is possible. At least it would keep the planes and boats from getting mixed up and avoid a possible accident.

Frankly I can see it possible it could work but much thought would need to be given to the logistics.
I'm here with my sailboat a couple of times a month, and I agree. I would would add wind speed and direction to the concerns you lay out--a complicating issue for both sailors and small planes that can often prevent both from going in the direction they would prefer. It's just too tight in there to add planes into the mix without a real problem.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:00 PM   #56
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Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.

The store owner reminds me of the Dive guys. Whether you like their initiatives or not, it's easy to see how they dream big but don't really think about the pesky details required for success.
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Old 05-19-2021, 03:35 PM   #57
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Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.
This is covered by Title 14 CFR 91.119, and isn't specific to seaplanes. Here's some related information:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...g_Aircraft.pdf

http://c-spa.org/v2/uploads/SPA_Wate...y_Oct2010s.pdf
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Old 05-19-2021, 09:32 PM   #58
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Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.

The store owner reminds me of the Dive guys. Whether you like their initiatives or not, it's easy to see how they dream big but don't really think about the pesky details required for success.
I heard the same description of the landing area. There is not enough room to land and take off with those measurements in 19 mile bay at anytime.. We do have had a seaplane land and take off along the north side of chase point. From Camp Belknap to the end of Chase Point. That is when there are no boats in sight. I just can't image any seaplane taking off or landing in that area. How did the state approve this petition? Who came out and measured or better yet observe the kind of boat traffic there are during the week and the weekends.

Any one concerned about the loons and baby chicks. The Farm Island development certainly got a lot of attention concerning loons nesting. This needs much more investigation and proof points.
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Old 05-20-2021, 10:30 AM   #59
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Hello everyone!

We were just made aware of this thread on the forum and thought I would join in on the conversation.

I would like to address anyone’s concerns! Feel free to ask or PM me or just call! I hope to have a great discussion about these developments. However, I want to warn you, I come with logic and facts; emotion and hyperbole will not be entertained, sorry. I do realize that I can’t spell very well, I’m a pilot after all and am an expert in abbreviation and acronyms! I also realize that I can’t please everyone.

1) Right off the bat, I would like to address the false narrative that is being perpetuated that this is a proposal to establish a Seaplane Base with the town. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What is being proposed is the lowering of the dock posts on the North side of the town docks, at no cost to the town tax payers at all. Establishing a Seaplane Base is not something that the town can approve, that is done by the state and the FAA.

2) I would like to address some claims that this was done “under the radar”. These claims are also false. As someone stated, we went to the selectman! Isn’t this part of the process? It’s not as if we went out in the middle of the night and cut down dock posts. For anyone being critical can you please tell me the process and exactly where it is spelled out to have the dock posts lowered at the town dock? I need a checklist, I’m a pilot! There is a separate process that I followed to certify the landing area, but that has nothing to do with the town government. After following the state process this is when the dock post issue popped up so we came to the town. There are no secrets. Imagine if you needed a public hearing to take your boat to the town dock! There is technically no difference. This is about dock posts. Here is the state process that we followed. https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailt...step162017.pdf

This “landing area” certification is nothing more than the state giving their approval saying that it is safe to do so and they provided a process to get the certification. Is anyone here willing to say that the State of New Hampshire is wrong? Please bring this to our attention. The state approved the plan. We are sympathetic to anyone's emotional reaction but to make accusations that we didn’t follow the process is just not true. Making statements that this was done “under the radar” is not accurate.

3) All we want is safe equal access to the docks. Someone stated that the town dock is not a seaplane dock. This is not true. Although the dock was not specifically designed for seaplanes, it is a dock. If a boat can access the dock legally, so can a seaplane. A seaplane on the water must comply with the same regulations as a boat. The proposal is to lower the height of the dock posts. I’m not sure how anyone can say that this is ambiguous. Those posts serve zero purpose being that high. This will allow the tails of aircraft to be less of a concern at the dock, but to be very clear, the dock posts are only a minor obstruction and do not prevent aircraft from coming to the dock now, if the pilot was so inclined to, under the right weather conditions.

4) We are not scared or hiding from a public hearing at all! We want to have a healthy conversation and ensure that the community is happy, inclusive and not discriminating against anyone based on anything, like a poor vessel with wings! What I think is being confused is what the purpose of the public hearing is for. I do not believe the public hearing is to see if a vessel can come to the town dock, it is to see if the dock posts can be lowered. Again, imagine if you needed a public hearing to see if you can bring your boat to the town dock. This is the same thing. We simply want equal access. This isn’t about the plane coming in or going out this is about lowering the dock posts.

5) The concerns about blocking the dock for Fire and EMS were very legitimate. However, after further investigation and discussion the concerns were addressed. An aircraft at the dock would never be left unattended and could be moved at a moment’s notice, unlike some of the commercial barges that load and unload equipment at the docks regularly. A long conversation with the Fire Chief has taken place and I have answered questions to his satisfaction. In fact, I ask anyone skeptical about this subject please watch the video. Start at about the 46 minute mark. The Selectman pointed out that there is a “trash day” for islanders, where a dumpster is left on the pier so that islanders can bring their rubbish to dispose of. Can anyone think of a bigger obstruction to the fire boat than a dumpster left on the pier? In fact, just yesterday there was a huge furniture delivery vehicle blocking the pier and putting furniture onto a barge for some islanders. Certainly, an attended seaplane presents a significantly smaller obstacle to Fire and EMS services. We just ask for equal treatment and consideration.

6) Speaking of commercial barges! Do they pay the town to use the docks? If so, then any commercial operator would be expected to pay the same amount for sure! I grew up on Melody Island and know that many of the people who live out on the islands get serviced by the barges when they need work from contractors. I used to work on the Kitty Bell Barge. To anyone who lives on the islands, I ask, are you paying the town to have your contractors use the dock? If so, how much? We would be glad to go through the same equal process.

7) Noise! Have you ever heard the jet skis all day? Or the plentiful cigarette/offshore racing boats on the lake? A small seaplane has far less horsepower and less noise. How about a bunch of boats rafting up and playing music? We just want the same equal consideration. Again, this isn’t about seaplanes flying into the bay, this is about dock posts being lowered.

8) Traffic in the Bay? Aircraft must give way to boats while landing, until they are on the water, then they become a boat per the regulations (aside from speed and no wake exemptions). Keep in mind pilots are highly trained and go through annual physical and aircraft training on a regular basis. One step farther are tour operators. They are drug and alcohol tested as well as need to obtain certification from the FAA. Boaters are hardly held to the same standards. Pilots must adhere to much higher safety protocols than the boaters. This is some of the training that we go through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjiXlKTCylg Also, there has been much discussion online about the distances aircraft must stay away from vessels. In the video I stated from memory 500’ and 300’. I would like to correct the record. It’s 500’ (FAR 91.119) and 150’ (NH boating rules). There is a clear “exception” and that is when taking off and landing. Obviously, an aircraft trying to land or take off cannot stay 500’ above the ground so they make exceptions. Please also reference FAR 91.115- right of way rules on water.

9) In the winter, if there isn’t a safe place to land then guess what will happen? Pilots will not land there. There is nothing stopping anyone from landing there now. I did this winter and it was a blast! Here is a video of my friend flying around the area on skis… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGkBQY02fkg

10) This area is rich in the history of seaplanes. In fact this last year was the 100th anniversary of having a seaplane base on Lake Winnipesaukee. I invite anyone to contact the Seaplane Pilots Association to find out more information. https://seaplanepilotsassociation.org/

11) I operate in and out of Mirror Lake now. I went through the legal process and we have a great relationship with the homeowners of the lake and were actually featured in the town newspaper last year! The people love it! I welcome anyone to come out and see us. https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/g/f...nteractive.pdf

Again, this proposal to the town is merely to lower the dock posts on the North side of the town docks. This will allow small seaplanes to access the dock without any chance of hitting their tail on the posts. Nothing more and nothing less! All the emotion and fear needs to be toned down. We are open, honest and not afraid of any questions. We want to do this the correct way, with no corners cut at all. If that means that the Selectmen think there should be a public hearing then we welcome that! All we want is equal access. The North side of the town docks doesn’t get used by many boats anyway because it is so shallow. The town has a unique opportunity to become a transient stop for seaplanes! We hope that we have answered most of your questions and concerns and look forward to meeting everyone!

Fly Safe!

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Old 05-20-2021, 11:10 AM   #60
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Hello everyone!

We were just made aware of this thread on the forum and thought I would join in on the conversation.

I would like to address anyone’s concerns! Feel free to ask or PM me or just call! I hope to have a great discussion about these developments. However, I want to warn you, I come with logic and facts; emotion and hyperbole will not be entertained, sorry. I do realize that I can’t spell very well, I’m a pilot after all and am an expert in abbreviation and acronyms! I also realize that I can’t please everyone.

1) Right off the bat, I would like to address the false narrative that is being perpetuated that this is a proposal to establish a Seaplane Base with the town. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What is being proposed is the lowering of the dock posts on the North side of the town docks, at no cost to the town tax payers at all. Establishing a Seaplane Base is not something that the town can approve, that is done by the state and the FAA.
Except that your "facts" are misleading, and your disdain for what you call emotion and hyperbole is insulting to those raising legitimate questions on noise and safety.

I don't have the energy to go point by point, but just taking this first and most obvious one--OK, so you do not need "to establish a Seaplane Base with the town", but apparently you do need for the town's cooperation to make your state approved Seaplane Base usable.

It is completely appropriate for the town to deny you any sort of leeway if they believe you are not acting in the best interest of the town.
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Old 05-20-2021, 11:21 AM   #61
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I appreciate your reply. Your statement saying "we need the town", I would agree with, in that we are asking for the towns permission to lower the height of the dock posts.

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Old 05-20-2021, 11:37 AM   #62
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Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the concise and correct information.
Since you have been on Mirror Lake for some time, that should answer a lot of questions.

Good luck.
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Old 05-20-2021, 12:21 PM   #63
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It is completely appropriate for the town to deny you any sort of leeway if they believe you are not acting in the best interest of the town.
Agreed. And it should not be forgotten that the pier is a town dock, and the town can regulate its use. Just as the town prohibits overnight boat docking, the town could entirely preclude the use of the dock by seaplanes.

The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use.
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Old 05-20-2021, 12:34 PM   #64
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Hey thanks! When I did this process for Mirror Lake we did not have a public hearing at all. Why? Because it wasn't required.

All we have done is followed this process. When the dock post issue came up we followed the process to propose that the dock posts be lowered. It's a simple as that. Nothing more and nothing less.

Incidentally, there are also approved landing areas in Winter Harbor and Alton Bay as well.

Please don't confuse this with a place that is legal for a plane to land. This certification is the state's approval to say that it safe by the state and then able to be listed in the directory and put on the charts.

A seaplane can land anywhere it is not prohibited to land and the pilot feels it is safe.

Thank you!
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Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the concise and correct information.
Since you have been on Mirror Lake for some time, that should answer a lot of questions.

Good luck.
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Old 05-20-2021, 12:45 PM   #65
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Agreed. And it should not be forgotten that the pier is a town dock, and the town can regulate its use. Just as the town prohibits overnight boat docking, the town could entirely preclude the use of the dock by seaplanes.

The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use.
How many people do you know own seaplanes and are vying for that area and are looking to be "entitled"? I really don't see much "entitlement" here and quite frankly it seems like the owner is pretty open and transparent, now even engaging in a reasonable manner without a negative tone. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight but I think it would be cool to have up this side of the lake and quite frankly with the local NIMBY type responses being expressed here I tend to side hoping they get what they ask for. Opposition is fine, but opposition without merit and with a constant negative demeanor is everything that's wrong with our society nowadays.
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Old 05-20-2021, 01:01 PM   #66
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I think we can all agree to that.

Just like the concerns about obstructing the dock have been brought up and commercial operations have been brought up.

What exactly are your concerns lowering the dock posts?

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Agreed. And it should not be forgotten that the pier is a town dock, and the town can regulate its use. Just as the town prohibits overnight boat docking, the town could entirely preclude the use of the dock by seaplanes.

The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use.
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Old 05-20-2021, 01:04 PM   #67
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How many people do you know own seaplanes and are vying for that area and are looking to be "entitled"? I really don't see much "entitlement" here and quite frankly it seems like the owner is pretty open and transparent, now even engaging in a reasonable manner without a negative tone. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight but I think it would be cool to have up this side of the lake and quite frankly with the local NIMBY type responses being expressed here I tend to side hoping they get what they ask for. Opposition is fine, but opposition without merit and with a constant negative demeanor is everything that's wrong with our society nowadays.
You did not watch the same video I did. She comes off as she has a right to control the town dock and that she will get her way no matter what. A sea plane base is not needed here and would be dangerous. The bay is busy enough during the summer months and would provide 0 benefit to the town and frankly her store. She has no more right to the town dock then other citizens of Tuftonboro. If anyone wants to to go on a seaplane tour there are plenty of places around the lake. There is no need to take a town asset and give a commercial business private use of it. There is no need to cause more chaos in the summer and potential dangerous interactions with boats.
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Old 05-20-2021, 01:08 PM   #68
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Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.

Thank you.

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Old 05-20-2021, 01:25 PM   #69
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I think ESA makes good points although I do believe some are disingenuous. First he mentions he has established a base on Mirror Lake and has had no problems. He doesn’t mention that he uses his own private dock for his plane, not a public dock. My question would be, why doesn’t he run the sightseeing flights out of his base on Mirror Lake. Second he states that he followed the process to get the base approve. He did. However, he and the storeowner blindsided the town and the selectmen. Wouldn’t it have been more productive to go to the selectmen first, explain what he/they wanted to do and get input from the town on what their concerns might be?

I just think the whole approach was wrong. The base brings no benefit to the town that I can see. It may be a positive for the store but for who else? EPA, can you shed some light on this?


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Old 05-20-2021, 01:34 PM   #70
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Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
And you are using "Epic Seaplane Adventures".

Most residents of Tuftonboro do not want this. From this thread anyone that doesn't care "has no stake". Why should the town give a commercial business private use over a town asset? This seems like a useless tourist attraction for the town and for the town to help you expand your business. The only attraction we need is the lake. You also have failed to answer the rebuttal that the wings will overhang onto the dock preventing cars driving or people walking on the wharf. Your response for the sound these planes will generate is justified because there are jet skis and loud boats? Bad take. The solution isn't to throw planes into the mix and create even more noise pollution
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Old 05-20-2021, 01:34 PM   #71
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Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc.

Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost.

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Old 05-20-2021, 01:53 PM   #72
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Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc.

Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost.

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I like the idea of this business however the store owner should expand her own dock for it. She has said she is here for the long term so a delay in getting state permits should be no issue is true.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:06 PM   #73
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Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc.

Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost.

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Great question. This came up with the Fire Chief as well. He was making the assumption that there was going to be a plane at the dock all the time. Imagining a carnival ride with a line forming. This is not the case.

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment.

Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment?

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Old 05-20-2021, 02:15 PM   #74
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Great question. This came up with the Fire Chief as well. He was making the assumption that there was going to be a plane at the dock all the time. Imagining a carnival ride with a line forming. This is not the case.

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment.

Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment?

Epic Seaplane Adventures
Regarding the barges they are not running a business from the wharf as you would be doing is the difference IMO. Your business use of the wharf will be determined by the residents of Tuftonboro if they want to allow this as it is their property.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:21 PM   #75
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Public information from the NH Secretary of State’s website. Not naming names, but for some publicly available information, go to:

https://sos.nh.gov/corporation-ucc-s...s-name-lookup/

Click on Quick Start.
Enter Epic Seaplane in the search box.
In search result, click on Epic Seaplane
Scroll down to Trade Name Owned By and click on the name shown.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Filing History.
Click on business formation.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:21 PM   #76
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What exactly are your concerns lowering the dock posts?
Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.

It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:24 PM   #77
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Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.



It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.
Could have not said it better myself, thank you.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:27 PM   #78
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Also, allow seaplanes to transit the area and have equal access to the dock by lowering the posts. We aren't suggesting making the dock a permanent place to keep any planes, just make it accessible.

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Old 05-20-2021, 02:36 PM   #79
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I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?
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Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.

It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:52 PM   #80
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I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures
What you're missing is that once you mention the following:

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

then you make the transition from a seaplane owned by a private citizen who would like to stop at the town docks to run into the store into a commercial tour operator in the same way the M/S Mount Washington and her sister ships operate. CowTimes couldn't have said it any better, and you seem like a smart person, so I'm sure you see the difference and are just trying to minimize the ask in the eyes of the public with the "it's just a few posts that need lowering". I can't see the town opening itself up to the increased liability that comes from having an airplane charter service operating from their dock. It sounds like a great business idea, just something that needs to be run from a private dock.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:53 PM   #81
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I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

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You have set up a very poor strawman with the barges and claiming unequal treatment. The reason barges use the town wharf is that is the only way for TOWN RESIDENTS on the islands to get access for building materials, septic pump outs, etc. So what you characterize as a business using the dock is an entirely proper use for town residents that pay property taxes. Indeed, the main benefits that the island residents get from their costly property taxes are emergency services (ie, the fire boat the selectmen want to be sure is not impaired by seaplanes) and use of this wharf for such purposes (island residents don’t use schools, don’t have roads to maintain, etc.).

Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility.

This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with.
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:54 PM   #82
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One has to wonder where these plane riders will park their vehicles..................
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:56 PM   #83
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What am I missing?

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The thing you are missing is that no one objects to the barges themselves. We all recognize that they are important to our neighbors in various ways, and they are not much more intrusive or dangerous than a boat.

People do have a variety of objections to planes and/or this type of business usage of a dock. So as you might expect, they are in no hurry to enable planes on their (town's) facility.
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Old 05-20-2021, 03:03 PM   #84
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I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Barge operators are not asking the town to modify the existing dock. They use it as is.

Secondly you are not entitled to equal access if the means of use requires special consideration. Just in the same way an 18 wheeled big rig can't just operate wherever they want as some roads are not equipped to handle a truck of it's size and weight.

I think the town needs to put higher dock posts up with night time lighting installed. That would be far more beneficial to the residents. Maybe I'll write the town and suggest that.
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Old 05-20-2021, 03:05 PM   #85
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Also, allow seaplanes to transit the area and have equal access to the dock by lowering the posts. We aren't suggesting making the dock a permanent place to keep any planes, just make it accessible.

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Welcome to the Winnipesaukee Forum, and thank you for your willingness to accept and respond to questions or criticism.

I think it is a great opportunity for you to respond to anyone who does have legitimate questions and to answer their concerns.

My question is where do you plan to refuel your plane, and how often do you project you will need to refuel? Are some special precautions in place to assure none of the fuel will get into the lake during the refueling process?

Again, thank you for answering member questions.
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Old 05-20-2021, 03:12 PM   #86
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You have set up a very poor strawman with the barges and claiming unequal treatment. The reason barges use the town wharf is that is the only way for TOWN RESIDENTS on the islands to get access for building materials, septic pump outs, etc. So what you characterize as a business using the dock is an entirely proper use for town residents that pay property taxes. Indeed, the main benefits that the island residents get from their costly property taxes are emergency services (ie, the fire boat the selectmen want to be sure is not impaired by seaplanes) and use of this wharf for such purposes (island residents don’t use schools, don’t have roads to maintain, etc.).

Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility.

This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with.
By strawman you mean... Good point?

I didn't catch your name.

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Old 05-20-2021, 03:22 PM   #87
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By strawman you mean... Good point?

I didn't catch your name.

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No- strawman means the opposite, but you knew that. Which is why there is no valid response as to the purpose of barges and their inherent benefit for and need by town island residents, as compared to, here, only your pecuniary business interests.

You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes.

Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here.
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Old 05-20-2021, 03:42 PM   #88
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Great question. This came up with the Fire Chief as well. He was making the assumption that there was going to be a plane at the dock all the time. Imagining a carnival ride with a line forming. This is not the case.

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment.

Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment?

Epic Seaplane Adventures
At the risk of being a nudge, would you kindly provide some info on how long it takes to load/unload and taxi and how many flights you'd be looking to do on a normal day?

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Old 05-20-2021, 04:02 PM   #89
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At the risk of being a nudge, would you kindly provide some info on how long it takes to load/unload and taxi and how many flights you'd be looking to do on a normal day?

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That's a great question! Loading and unloading would not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading.

And as far as how many times a plane would come in and out it is undetermined. However a 30-minute flight would take an entire hour including safety briefing, loading, taxiing, docking and unloading. I hope that helps.

I appreciate everyone's input and questions...

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Old 05-20-2021, 04:05 PM   #90
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No- strawman means the opposite, but you knew that. Which is why there is no valid response as to the purpose of barges and their inherent benefit for and need by town island residents, as compared to, here, only your pecuniary business interests.

You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes.

Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here.
I am a town resident that pays my taxes for the pier as well...

I appreciate your passion. Hiding behind a keyboard throwing darts isn't very productive to a good conversation. Feel free to call me up and discuss this at length.

Thank you.

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Old 05-20-2021, 04:17 PM   #91
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That's a great question! Loading and unloading would not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading.

And as far as how many times a plane would come in and out it is undetermined. However a 30-minute flight would take an entire hour including safety briefing, loading, taxiing, docking and unloading. I hope that helps.

I appreciate everyone's input and questions...

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So, for each flight, the plane would be at the town wharf for approximately a half hour, and a half hour in the air? Or close to a half hour at the dock per flight? Your statement that it would “not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading” seems either disingenuous or intentionally misleading, as you’re omitting the safety briefing and other time at the dock.

And presuming that you want to make a profit, you would have the maximum number of flights that you could operate in a day, right? How many flights would that be in a day? 8 flights back to back for a full 8-hour day? 10 or 12 on weekends? And if you need to do safety briefings and loading/unloading at the dock for a half hour, you’re looking to potentially occupy the town owned wharf for half of the day for your business, no?

Saying it is undetermined is avoiding a fair question—it is what I would call assertion of “the businessman’s Fifth Amendment” privilege against self-incrimination. You should at least disclose what the maximum number of flights per day would be.
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:21 PM   #92
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So, for each flight, the plane would be at the town wharf for approximately a half hour, and a half hour in the air? Or close to a half hour at the dock per flight? Your statement that it would “not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading” seems either disingenuous or intentionally misleading, as you’re omitting the safety briefing and other time at the dock.

And presuming that you want to make a profit, you would have the maximum number of flights that you could operate in a day, right? How many flights would that be in a day? 8 flights back to back for a full 8-hour day? 10 or 12 on weekends? And if you need to do safety briefings and loading/unloading at the dock for a half hour, you’re looking to potentially occupy the town owned wharf for half of the day for your business, no?

Saying it is undetermined is avoiding a fair question—it is what I would call assertion of “the businessman’s Fifth Amendment” privilege against self-incrimination. You should at least disclose what the maximum number of flights per day would be.
I'm open to a rational discussion but you keep adding things in that aren't true. I understand your opposition but you are twisting things into something it is not.

You are reading into things and letting your emotion get a hold of you.

I stand by my comment that loading and unloading will not take any longer than a boat. You making a statement that I will be at the dock for a half an hour is incorrect.

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Old 05-20-2021, 04:32 PM   #93
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I'm open to a rational discussion but you keep adding things in that aren't true. I understand your opposition but you are twisting things into something it is not.

You are reading into things and letting your emotion get a hold of you.

I stand by my comment that loading and unloading will not take any longer than a boat. You making a statement that I will be at the dock for a half an hour is incorrect.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
Then disclose what you would consider to be the maximum time your plane would be at the town dock on any given day, and how you get to that amount of time. Hiding behind assertions of “emotion” getting in the way of rational discussion and questions isn’t helpful to your cause. These are real and legitimate questions that you are refusing to answer here and instead respond with intentional ambiguities.

Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up.
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:47 PM   #94
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Then disclose what you would consider to be the maximum time your plane would be at the town dock on any given day, and how you get to that amount of time. Hiding behind assertions of “emotion” getting in the way of rational discussion and questions isn’t helpful to your cause. These are real and legitimate questions that you are refusing to answer here and instead respond with intentional ambiguities.

Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up.
You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

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Old 05-20-2021, 04:59 PM   #95
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You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
So we’re starting to get some helpful information here, thank you. Based on that, the maximum flights would be around 9 per day. And how long per flight would you be at the dock? You already said each flight is only 30 mins in the air. So what am I missing as to how you would not be at the dock for approx a half hour per flight, ie up to 4.5 hours per day?

I am being as respectful as I can. Pressing you for answers is not disrespectful. You came onto a semi-public forum to plead your case. Expect to be pressed.

You keep asking that we take this discussion private. But that is part of the problem you first encountered by trying to use town property for commercial purposes without meaningful public disclosure. The public should hear your answers and see this discussion. As you can see from my profile, I am a Tuftonboro island resident—pressing for more is just attempting to suppress discussion on this forum over something you, not I, need town approval for.
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Old 05-20-2021, 05:02 PM   #96
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You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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Old 05-20-2021, 05:13 PM   #97
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Perhaps Epic and the Dive employ the same public relations consultant??
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Old 05-20-2021, 05:15 PM   #98
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There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?
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Old 05-20-2021, 05:15 PM   #99
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I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

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Old 05-20-2021, 05:21 PM   #100
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There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?
That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

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