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Old 05-22-2021, 09:46 PM   #201
Epic Seaplane Adventures
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Originally Posted by Sundancer320 View Post
I was open to the idea of a seaplane tour operator but after watching the video and seeing Epic’s disdain for the people most affected by it, I have decided that he is an arrogant jerk that thinks he can dazzle his way thru. Fortunately this forum has actually worked against him due to his own crass attitude.
So this is a new reason. I've heard no blocking the dock for EMS, and no commercial operations, I've even heard "I just don't want a plane here.", but this reason is new. Now it's no planes because of distain for someone.

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Old 05-22-2021, 09:53 PM   #202
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Good thing this forum has the pulse of the people and shows the actual level of public support out there. After one day... Name:  Screenshot_20210522-224806.jpg
Views: 2530
Size:  43.2 KB

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Old 05-23-2021, 04:17 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures View Post
Good thing this forum has the pulse of the people and shows the actual level of public support out there. After one day... Attachment 17004

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How many of these people are Tuftonboro residents who have the final say what happens with their wharf?
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Old 05-23-2021, 05:17 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Sundancer320 View Post
I was open to the idea of a seaplane tour operator but after watching the video and seeing Epic’s disdain for the people most affected by it, I have decided that he is an arrogant jerk that thinks he can dazzle his way thru. Fortunately this forum has actually worked against him due to his own crass attitude.
I do not have distain for anyone. The people on here are hiding behind a screen name. We do not know who they are or where they live. Most I would venture are not from here, didn't grow up here, and know most of the people in this community. Most I would venture are seasonal people who speak of things like entitlement, but have large boats, and second homes and feel entitled to the dock. Most of the voices are from Islanders who feel like the town dock is theirs and the rules for blocking access to the fire boat don't apply to them and that they can hire people to bring things to them out on the islands and or do some sort of work for hire. Then they turn around and say that shouldn't apply to anyone except people from the islands. Public Dock to them means Islanders first and everyone else is second class citizens. This is entitlement, and distain, but it is not from me. They know they can't say, "I don't want a plane here.". So they come up with every reason they think to attempt to block it.

BTW- Sundancer 320. That's a nice boat! Have a wonderful day.

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Old 05-23-2021, 05:55 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures View Post
Just so I'm clear, you're completely okay with private seaplanes coming to the wharf and cutting down the post for that?

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No, I just happen to like airplanes. I’ve made my position pretty clear about your request for an accommodation (cutting down tie posts) and ceding part of the dock to you to run your sightseeing business. If you want to run your business you should build the costs associated w/infrastructure (docks) into your business plan.


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Old 05-23-2021, 05:59 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures View Post
You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true...

I've already stated that the business is not based there and that I can pick up and drop off anywhere that it's legal. We just want equal access to the dock.

I think my position is very clear from what I have stated. Again there is a lot of emotion on this website and I appreciate that. The problem with the emotional argument is that there are too many examples of others using the pier for the exact reasons that you state is seaplane cannot come to the pier for. Again I state that AC plane can come to the pier. This is about lowering the dock post on the north side of the wharf.

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Okay, I've been following this thread since the very first post. Epic keeps reiterating that he just wants to be treated fairly and have equal access to town property AND this entire discussion is ONLY about lowering the dock posts on the side of Union Wharf (because he doesn't need anyone's permission or support to land his plane or operate a business on 19 Mile Bay) Then maybe he can answer these few questions for me.

1) How many barge services or any other local business (other than Epic and his business partner, Pier 19 Country Store) have asked to have the wharf modified for their own personal use?

2) How many islanders have asked to have town property modified so they can experience a financial gain from their island-based business? (Because Epic has already made it very clear that his business is not based at Union Wharf)

3) How many boaters have docked, multiple times per day, at publicly owned property every single Saturday and Sunday (weather permitting)?
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Old 05-23-2021, 06:26 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures View Post
The posts are 4-5 feet high above the top of the dock. They are not supporting anything above the deck height. As low as possible down to deck height would be great, obviously leaving enough for boaters to tie to. However, that side of the pier doesn't get used by boats because it is too shallow and perfect for seaplanes.

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If the posts on Union Wharf were lowered to deck height (I know you said "leaving enough for boaters to tie to") what would you suggest boats tie to? Or would adding cleats be another modification the town would need to make for the wharf? Or are you suggesting that only the posts that impede your access be modified to fit your need?

Just as an FYI the height of the posts actually do serve a purpose. The current height of the posts is about 3 feet. Many boaters use that height as an assist when entering and exiting their boat.

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Old 05-23-2021, 06:29 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures View Post
I do not have distain for anyone. The people on here are hiding behind a screen name. We do not know who they are or where they live. Most I would venture are not from here, didn't grow up here, and know most of the people in this community. Most I would venture are seasonal people who speak of things like entitlement, but have large boats, and second homes and feel entitled to the dock. Most of the voices are from Islanders who feel like the town dock is theirs and the rules for blocking access to the fire boat don't apply to them and that they can hire people to bring things to them out on the islands and or do some sort of work for hire. Then they turn around and say that shouldn't apply to anyone except people from the islands. Public Dock to them means Islanders first and everyone else is second class citizens. This is entitlement, and distain, but it is not from me. They know they can't say, "I don't want a plane here.". So they come up with every reason they think to attempt to block it.

BTW- Sundancer 320. That's a nice boat! Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
“I do not have disdain for anyone” and then an entire post expressing disdain against island and other residents based on false assumptions. The people most affected here are island residents, many of whom have been here for generations, in addition to the mainland residents of 19 Mile Bay.

No island resident or island service company uses the Union Wharf in the way you seek. You want to base your entire commercial enterprise off public property. There is not a single example of a commercial enterprise being allowed to base its operations off town property (the Union Wharf or any other town property) in the way you seek without having obtained a permit/license (i.e., paying for it), a public bid process, and providing indemnification to the town for potential liabilities.

Town ordinance expressly permits the barges to use the wharf for up to an hour, and expressly prohibits using the wharf as you seek for more than intermittent commercial operation. This is not new, and has been the case for decades. You are the one that is seeking to entirely change what constitutes permitted use of town property. You are not entitled to this, period.
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Old 05-23-2021, 06:35 AM   #209
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Epic, you posted 75 db “at the dock”. Did you attempt to get db readings from docks on Chase or Farm Islands or down the mainland side and south end of the bay during takeoff? People don’t live on the dock.

Also, Cow Times posted a list of 9 questions. Instead of answering the questions in a “open discussion” manner, as you have stated you want, you respond to him with a snarky comment. You call people who worked their butts off to acquire a second home on islands and boats “entitled.” Not a way to make friends/supporters & generally bad Business! (Seems I’ve read similar comments about the store owner in this thread.)


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Old 05-23-2021, 06:46 AM   #210
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Someone landed a seaplane in the new and approved Pier 19 runway. Then I saw Tom Wood having a discussion on the town wharf. Pictures were being taken where acting as a boat will probably tie up. Wow did that plane make noise far worst than any motor cycle or off shore 1000 HP race boat. Many neighbors were complaining after. The sound echoes in that tight enclosed area.

I would not be surprised to see him tie up at the wharf after all just to check it out. That's fine he is a boat. But there is no way he can reduce prop wash or sound. It will be an interesting summer.
I'm so glad to see that in the spirit of true transparency, the flight into Pier 19 was announced, in advance, so all the naysayers could have come to Nineteen Mile Bay to see exactly what Epic has been trying to explain to all of us. Oh wait, it wasn't!
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Old 05-23-2021, 07:45 AM   #211
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So with commercial operations aside everyone here is fine with modifying the docks for personal seaplane use right? As long as the public docks aren’t being used for hire is what I’m gathering.

I live in Alton bay. There is an faa approved runway. There is zero facility’s for seaplanes. If I want to stop and give my mother a ride I can’t. Drop in for ice cream or dinner, nope. Furthermore, if you think there is going to be hundreds of operations a day you’re wrong. Most pilots show discretion and won’t land if it’s busy and crowded with boats. This area was built off seaplanes. Most people think it’s pretty neat to see them. But I get it, you don’t want it in your back yard. I don’t hear you complaining about the loud boats blasting there radios, tearing up and down the lake at all hours of the day. Or the wake boats mindlessly cruising around too.

http://weirsbeach.com/reasons-to-vis...seaplane-base/


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Old 05-23-2021, 08:18 AM   #212
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So with commercial operations aside everyone here is fine with modifying the docks for personal seaplane use right? As long as the public docks aren’t being used for hire is what I’m gathering.

I live in Alton bay. There is an faa approved runway. There is zero facility’s for seaplanes. If I want to stop and give my mother a ride I can’t. Drop in for ice cream or dinner, nope. Furthermore, if you think there is going to be hundreds of operations a day you’re wrong. Most pilots show discretion and won’t land if it’s busy and crowded with boats. This area was built off seaplanes. Most people think it’s pretty neat to see them. But I get it, you don’t want it in your back yard. I don’t hear you complaining about the loud boats blasting there radios, tearing up and down the lake at all hours of the day. Or the wake boats mindlessly cruising around too.

http://weirsbeach.com/reasons-to-vis...seaplane-base/


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If there wasn’t a commercial tour operation, the likelihood of seaplanes in 19 Mile Bay is likely very intermittent, at best. The only reason for a private seaplane to land there is the store, but without aviation fuel, I think it is doubtful there would be much seaplane use.

The real use here and at least my objection is driven by the commercial nature of the operation. The safety profile is very different between intermittent private use and continuous commercial use. The plan is to run tours during peak boating times. I agree that private pilots show discretion not only in not landing if busy, but also in avoiding busy boating times altogether. The incentives are very different for a commercial operation that has paying customers waiting on the pier and whose business has peak operations at the same time as peak boating use. And that is all before addressing using town property for commercial operations.
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Old 05-23-2021, 08:35 AM   #213
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So intermittent private use for modifying the docks is ok? You’d be surprised how much a seaplane base would attract private users. It’s just like boating, snowmobiling and motorcycling, they are looking for a destination. We enjoy supporting the local shops and businesses. Seaplanes have become less common and because of that the docks are not accommodating. I have had a quite a few people ask me where the seaplane docks are in Alton. They are shocked when I tell them there is none. But it’s a seaplane base, how are there no docks? Most seaplanes around here are amphibious, meaning they have wheels and can land on and most importantly fuel on land.


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Old 05-23-2021, 08:49 AM   #214
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Epic, you posted 75 db “at the dock”. Did you attempt to get db readings from docks on Chase or Farm Islands or down the mainland side and south end of the bay during takeoff? People don’t live on the dock.

Also, Cow Times posted a list of 9 questions. Instead of answering the questions in a “open discussion” manner, as you have stated you want, you respond to him with a snarky comment. You call people who worked their butts off to acquire a second home on islands and boats “entitled.” Not a way to make friends/supporters & generally bad Business! (Seems I’ve read similar comments about the store owner in this thread.)


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None of this is true. The more the nay say'ers keep talking the more they expose their true feelings. I appreciate the forum and discussion.

So a private individual must announce publicly that they are coming? Interesting argument.

More and more we are sounding like we don't live in the "Live Free or Die State" and sounding like the Commonwealth.

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Old 05-23-2021, 08:51 AM   #215
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So intermittent private use for modifying the docks is ok? You’d be surprised how much a seaplane base would attract private users. It’s just like boating, snowmobiling and motorcycling, they are looking for a destination. We enjoy supporting the local shops and businesses. Seaplanes have become less common and because of that the docks are not accommodating. I have had a quite a few people ask me where the seaplane docks are in Alton. They are shocked when I tell them there is none. But it’s a seaplane base, how are there no docks? Most seaplanes around here are amphibious, meaning they have wheels and can land on and most importantly fuel on land.


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I’m not sure why the town would need to modify the wharf. The plane this weekend was able to tie up just fine. And if I correctly understood the presentation at the board of selectmen’s meeting, seaplanes have always been entitled to land wherever they want (with or without the FAA runway certification) so long as proper distance has been maintained.

Now, the board of selectmen raised their own safety concerns on the use of the wharf for seaplanes in general, and the town of course can regulate the use of the town wharf. I see private use of the wharf as something that should also involve public discussion and debate, but the conversation is very different if there is no commercial operation involved.
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Old 05-23-2021, 08:53 AM   #216
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None of this is true. The more the may Sayers keep talking the more they expose their true feelings. I appreciate the forum and discussion.

So a private individual must announce publicly that they are coming? Interesting argument.

More and more we are sounding like we don't live in the "Live Free or Die State" and sounding like the Commonwealth.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
Keep digging your hole epic, thank you.
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Old 05-23-2021, 10:34 AM   #217
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I’m not sure why the town would need to modify the wharf. The plane this weekend was able to tie up just fine. And if I correctly understood the presentation at the board of selectmen’s meeting, seaplanes have always been entitled to land wherever they want (with or without the FAA runway certification) so long as proper distance has been maintained.

Now, the board of selectmen raised their own safety concerns on the use of the wharf for seaplanes in general, and the town of course can regulate the use of the town wharf. I see private use of the wharf as something that should also involve public discussion and debate, but the conversation is very different if there is no commercial operation involved.
Now we are having a great discussion. Thank you.

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Old 05-23-2021, 10:37 AM   #218
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I do not have distain for anyone. The people on here are hiding behind a screen name. We do not know who they are or where they live. Most I would venture are not from here, didn't grow up here, and know most of the people in this community. Most I would venture are seasonal people who speak of things like entitlement, but have large boats, and second homes and feel entitled to the dock. Most of the voices are from Islanders who feel like the town dock is theirs and the rules for blocking access to the fire boat don't apply to them and that they can hire people to bring things to them out on the islands and or do some sort of work for hire. Then they turn around and say that shouldn't apply to anyone except people from the islands. Public Dock to them means Islanders first and everyone else is second class citizens. This is entitlement, and distain, but it is not from me. They know they can't say, "I don't want a plane here.". So they come up with every reason they think to attempt to block it.

BTW- Sundancer 320. That's a nice boat! Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
So much wrong in this comment.
Show me anyone’s comments in this thread where they indicated the dock was theirs?
Did anyone show pictures of their large boats? Did anyone say they have one?
You’re using my screen name as a snarky shot at me... that’s fine I can take a shot since you’re not able to without lashing out... by the way Sundancer 320 is a nice boat...sold it long ago..never bothered to change it... nice try though.
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Old 05-23-2021, 12:39 PM   #219
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So much wrong in this comment.
Show me anyone’s comments in this thread where they indicated the dock was theirs?
Did anyone show pictures of their large boats? Did anyone say they have one?
You’re using my screen name as a snarky shot at me... that’s fine I can take a shot since you’re not able to without lashing out... by the way Sundancer 320 is a nice boat...sold it long ago..never bothered to change it... nice try though.
I wasn't attacking you at all. I like that boat.

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Old 05-23-2021, 12:52 PM   #220
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I wasn't attacking you at all. I like that boat.

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Ok, I will accept that... I agree, nice boat. Even nicer now that I sold it!
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Old 05-24-2021, 02:18 PM   #221
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Epic, you posted 75 db “at the dock”. Did you attempt to get db readings from docks on Chase or Farm Islands or down the mainland side and south end of the bay during takeoff? People don’t live on the dock.

Also, Cow Times posted a list of 9 questions. Instead of answering the questions in a “open discussion” manner, as you have stated you want, you respond to him with a snarky comment. You call people who worked their butts off to acquire a second home on islands and boats “entitled.” Not a way to make friends/supporters & generally bad Business! (Seems I’ve read similar comments about the store owner in this thread.)


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This thread is pretty much dead now, but I think that you are misreading my comments. I have a second home and a boat etc etc... I didn't say these people are acting entitled because of that at all. The entitlement comes from the nay say'ers who are acting like they are entitled to the priority of a public dock. I'm not saying things like, "I have a plane, and I should have priority over that side of the dock because I live out on the island" etc etc. They are saying however, "I have a house on the island, so it's ok for me to use the dock for commercial purposes." My comments are pointing out how they are acting entitled to the dock for their commercial use, but then try to prevent any other commercial use. I'll have you know that the barge owners are on my side on this. They all are saying that me picking up and dropping off someone at the dock should not be treated any differently than them picking up and dropping off things for the islanders.

It's a very small, vocal, minority, but they are fighting their own battle with logic when they make the argument.

My point was that they are being hypocritical when they accuse me of being "entitled".
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Old 05-24-2021, 03:06 PM   #222
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It's a very small, vocal, minority, but they are fighting their own battle with logic when they make the argument.
Please stop making false and unsupported gratuitous assertions. Have you done a survey of support and opposition among 19 Mile Bay residents and Tuftonboro island residents? Without that, please don’t say the opposition is a “small” “minority.” I have spoken with dozens of island residents on this over the last several days, and not a single one is in support.

Posting a screenshot of a facebook page—presumably your personal page—with 92 “thumbs up” from presumably your seaplane pilot friends is not “the actual level of public support.”

And enough already with the barge comparison—that use has been determined by the town to be an entirely appropriate incidental commercial use of the wharf and is expressly permitted by town ordinance. If your entire argument to base a seaplane tour business on town property is the fact that island residents need to use it now and then with a barge to inhabit the islands, you are wasting your time. If that logic were to hold, there would be no reason why I could not bring my food truck and park it right where your plane was this weekend all summer. BTW, you still haven’t explained how that is any different, since your argument boils down to if there is even incidental commercial use, all commercial use is allowed.

I wish you would have let this thread die. There is about as much logic and planning here as the publicity stunt of proposing a volunteer seaplane medical air transport.
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Old 05-24-2021, 03:13 PM   #223
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Epic, you quoted me quoting your post. How is “none of this true.” Are you lying to us?


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Old 05-24-2021, 03:44 PM   #224
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This looks like great fun, never been up in a seaplane.
When will tickets be available, July should be very busy
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Old 05-24-2021, 04:22 PM   #225
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Please stop making false and unsupported gratuitous assertions. Have you done a survey of support and opposition among 19 Mile Bay residents and Tuftonboro island residents? Without that, please don’t say the opposition is a “small” “minority.” I have spoken with dozens of island residents on this over the last several days, and not a single one is in support.

Posting a screenshot of a facebook page—presumably your personal page—with 92 “thumbs up” from presumably your seaplane pilot friends is not “the actual level of public support.”

And enough already with the barge comparison—that use has been determined by the town to be an entirely appropriate incidental commercial use of the wharf and is expressly permitted by town ordinance. If your entire argument to base a seaplane tour business on town property is the fact that island residents need to use it now and then with a barge to inhabit the islands, you are wasting your time. If that logic were to hold, there would be no reason why I could not bring my food truck and park it right where your plane was this weekend all summer. BTW, you still haven’t explained how that is any different, since your argument boils down to if there is even incidental commercial use, all commercial use is allowed.

I wish you would have let this thread die. There is about as much logic and planning here as the publicity stunt of proposing a volunteer seaplane medical air transport.
Instead of a food truck analogy, how about comparing the air tour more like a pizza delivery. A person would say, "can I get a large pepperoni pizza delivered to the town dock? I'll meet you there to pick it up!". That's way different than saying, "I'm going to set up a pizza joint on the dock.".

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Old 05-24-2021, 04:53 PM   #226
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Instead of a food truck analogy, how about comparing the air tour more like a pizza delivery. A person would say, "can I get a large pepperoni pizza delivered to the town dock? I'll meet you there to pick it up!". That's way different than saying, "I'm going to set up a pizza joint on the dock.".

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Except you’d have to change it to say that you advertise your pizza as Union Wharf pizza and the only place you can get it is Union Wharf. And it’s not just delivery to and meeting at Union Wharf for a quick exchange—the pizza truck would need to occupy the wharf for 4-5 hours per day for a half hour between each order, and longer if a customer is late or no shows. That’s the commercial use difference. And then for the safety aspects, you’d have to have the pizza truck block access to the fire boat, and have the truck try to entirely avoid rush hour traffic at 80+ MPH en route to Union Wharf without being able to touch the brakes. And that’s before modifying the truck to have the loudest exhaust system you have heard for the enjoyment of the neighbors.

But if you use your original hypothetical of a typical intermittent pizza delivery, that would sound awfully a lot like the incidental use for a barge.
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Old 05-24-2021, 04:58 PM   #227
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This thread may be dying but let me assure you us folks that want our selectmen to enforce our town ordinances in particular the one about no commercial use of the town pier are growing in numbers. We are mobilizing and acting. Can I send you a bumper sticker?
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Old 05-24-2021, 05:22 PM   #228
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Except you’d have to change it to say that you advertise your pizza as Union Wharf pizza and the only place you can get it is Union Wharf. And it’s not just delivery to and meeting at Union Wharf for a quick exchange—the pizza truck would need to occupy the wharf for 4-5 hours per day for a half hour between each order, and longer if a customer is late or no shows. That’s the commercial use difference. And then for the safety aspects, you’d have to have the pizza truck block access to the fire boat, and have the truck try to entirely avoid rush hour traffic at 80+ MPH en route to Union Wharf without being able to touch the brakes. And that’s before modifying the truck to have the loudest exhaust system you have heard for the enjoyment of the neighbors.

But if you use your original hypothetical of a typical intermittent pizza delivery, that would sound awfully a lot like the incidental use for a barge.
Perhaps this is why face to face conversation is the most effective way to communicate. Your reply to me could not be more misinformed (or perhaps intentionally deceptive to fit your narrative).

I know I must be sensitive to everyone, but what you are saying is completely false. My company name isn't Union Warf, and I'm not basing my operations out of there. I've said this multiple times. The only reason I keep replying to you is not to convince you, but to show everyone else that you are not correct. I'm not being mean or crass, I'm just letting you know that your description of my business is not just a little bit false but entirely false.

My wish would be that you would accept what I'm saying is true, however you have an agenda that is clear. So, I only engage to continue to show my resolve.

I'm all for the bumper stickers. Please show us who you are and do not be shy to engage us in conversation.

Have a nice day.

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Old 05-24-2021, 05:30 PM   #229
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I'm not basing my operations out of there. I've said this multiple times.

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That is a very conclusive statement for which you have provided no factual support. I, and others on this forum, have asked a handful of questions dozens of times on the anticipated use of the Wharf, which you have ignored. If your position is that your operations will not be “based” on Union Wharf, then where else are you picking up tours? Where do you think you are based? Your Mirror Lake home where you will operate no tours from? Will you not advertise that you will be operating off Union Wharf as the location for tours?
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Old 05-24-2021, 05:40 PM   #230
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It's a very small, vocal, minority, but they are fighting their own battle with logic when they make the argument.
Small, vocal, minority? You're delusional. Why would any 19 Mile Bay boater want to compete for space with a seaplane landing or takeoff every half-hour? Why would any nearby resident want the drone of the plane also twice hourly? Why would the town want to give a huge number of dock hours to any one business or person?

The Selectmen made it clear that you would get plenty of people pushing back, you should have listened more closely
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Old 05-24-2021, 05:57 PM   #231
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The beautiful thing is we do not need to keep engaging you in this conversation. Your belligerent, condescending comments are getting tiring. We will let our selectmen do the talking for us. This entire thread of “he said she said” is pointless other than getting the message to the public and letting them see character of those involved. To that end both you and the store owner have proven our point.
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Old 05-24-2021, 06:19 PM   #232
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This thread is definitely dead... Thanks everyone!

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Old 05-24-2021, 06:33 PM   #233
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This thread is definitely dead... Thanks everyone!

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Agreed. No point when you won’t answer basic questions. Perhaps you will answer questions at the town hearing (it this gets that far). See you there.
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Old 05-24-2021, 07:06 PM   #234
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This thread is definitely dead... Thanks everyone!

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Wait! Don’t pronounce this thread dead yet! When you first joined the discussion, you said you would “like to address anyone’s concerns;” you told us to “feel free to ask;” etc. Well, I have asked several questions, you replied to some, but others (some asked multiple times) you have completely ignored. While the thread still has a pulse, please answer:

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?
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Old 05-24-2021, 11:40 PM   #235
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Is this the first time you have ever experienced something like this? You're comments seem like we are inventing something new. Anyone with any common sense and reason can see this isn't an issue.

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So, As I look at the picture you posted, your wings would appear to be roughly 6 ft. off the top of the wharf... Drop that lake a foot, and that would have them roughly 5 feet off the top of the wharf... if others are trying to use the wharf how will you feel when they are touching your plane? Bump things off your plane on accident, etc.

In another thread you mention using your plane to help in emergency situations, is this the plane you are referring to?

Don't get me wrong those are great little planes, what is it a Cessna 180, or something similar... The best this plane could hope for to help with, is going to be as a searcher in a search and rescue mission.

I have no problem in what you are trying to do.... But lets stop beating around the bush, lay the full plan on the table, and we can all move on with our lives.

I will agree that the posts are an issue, for a seaplane but hold on, so are the posts, in Meredith, Center Harbor, Wolfeboro, the Wiers and I could go on. Why aren't these other locations being considered? Why is Tuftonboro being targeted? I think it is because it is quiet place on the lake where it is perceived a plane could be left safely for short period of times. As a private citizen I see no problem in you wanting that. However if you have intentions of a private site seeing business then your going about it all wrong.

This issue hear is the unknown... What is Epic Seaplane adventures, what are its intentions... Put the details on the table. stop trying to hide behind your screen, and maybe you will gain support.
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Old 05-25-2021, 06:18 AM   #236
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All, I appreciate everyone's support and encouragement with this issue. I have attempted to come here on this forum in good faith.

What I have found is that there are a few people on here who are regular agitators, who enjoy being keyboard warriors.

All one need to do is take a few minutes to search their previous postings to see that they have no interest in doing anything other than attempting to bully others who have other view points. Go back and search threads like "mask wearing in grocery stores" and you will find the very same aggressive behavior that these same agitators are displaying here. What you will find is that (one particular person even had the nerve to call people names who disagree with them. Names typical to the narratives, like xenophobic. Oh the irony, because now they hate on this thread and are completely xenophobic! Their thread had even been locked by the mediator because it got so ugly.) Debating with these individuals is a complete waste of time.

In stead of debate and honesty they just spread hate, division, and only seek to cancel people who disagree with them.

These people are not concerned citizens, they are activists.

Our world does not benefit from these people. These people hate others who disagree with them.

I hope to meet all of you reasonable people some day, but there are people (not everyone) on here who are the very same type of people you would see blocking a highway or organizing a march somewhere. It's always the same very few.

I no longer have the time or energy to respond to these folks. Again, go back and search their previous posts. You will see that their intolerance for others is deafening.

I have a family, a job, and a wonderful life. I thank God for that every day.

Thank you for letting me use this forum to counter the "outrage", and expose who these people really are.

See you all at the (if we have one) public meeting. What you will discover is that we are reasonable, logical, and very considerate individuals who want this town to succeed!

Have a good day everyone.

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Old 05-25-2021, 07:00 AM   #237
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I thought post #232 was the end for you, you just could not let it go and had to take a few more cheap shots. Shows your true character.
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Old 05-25-2021, 07:46 AM   #238
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All, I appreciate everyone's support and encouragement with this issue. I have attempted to come here on this forum in good faith.

What I have found is that there are a few people on here who are regular agitators, who enjoy being keyboard warriors.

All one need to do is take a few minutes to search their previous postings to see that they have no interest in doing anything other than attempting to bully others who have other view points. Go back and search threads like "mask wearing in grocery stores" and you will find the very same aggressive behavior that these same agitators are displaying here. What you will find is that (one particular person even had the nerve to call people names who disagree with them. Names typical to the narratives, like xenophobic. Oh the irony, because now they hate on this thread and are completely xenophobic! Their thread had even been locked by the mediator because it got so ugly.) Debating with these individuals is a complete waste of time.

In stead of debate and honesty they just spread hate, division, and only seek to cancel people who disagree with them.

These people are not concerned citizens, they are activists.

Our world does not benefit from these people. These people hate others who disagree with them.

I hope to meet all of you reasonable people some day, but there are people (not everyone) on here who are the very same type of people you would see blocking a highway or organizing a march somewhere. It's always the same very few.

I no longer have the time or energy to respond to these folks. Again, go back and search their previous posts. You will see that their intolerance for others is deafening.

I have a family, a job, and a wonderful life. I thank God for that every day.

Thank you for letting me use this forum to counter the "outrage", and expose who these people really are.

See you all at the (if we have one) public meeting. What you will discover is that we are reasonable, logical, and very considerate individuals who want this town to succeed!

Have a good day everyone.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
Wow, this is just so rich....
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Old 05-25-2021, 12:40 PM   #239
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Default 19-Mile Bay

Last Saturday at our home on 19-Mile Bay, I heard a seaplane fly low, land in the bay and taxi toward the town docks. Later, it taxied out and took off. It was fun to watch, and very loud--louder than any boats.

Almost every summer there is an occasional ultra-light or seaplane that lands in the bay. Our friends on Bear Island got a ride in a seaplane from the end of their dock one year. Great!

But something that's fun to watch once or twice a summer is not the same as a business that makes trips several times a day on weekends.

This is similar to a zoning question. Occasional use for pleasure is very different from business use, and towns use zoning rules to accommodate various uses. Should 19-Mile Bay and the docks be zoned as an airport?

It is also a question of whether town property should be used for a commercial business similar to the Millie-B at the Wolfeboro town docks. The operators of the Millie-B probably pay for the right to use that dock. The town decided that it adds to the overall benefit of the town to allow it, drawing visitors and earning some income from the dock. No problem. That's the town's explicit decision, and they probably re-visit it every year or so to be sure it still makes sense for the town.

In my opinion, 19-Mile Bay is not like the Wolfeboro town docks, and the town should have the ability to decide what's in its best interest if someone wants to run a business using town docks.

I'm not against seaplanes or ultra-lights using the bay occasionally for pleasure. I am not against small businesses since I am a small business owner.

But I am against the repeated very loud noise of a seaplane business that changes the character of the area for families who want to experience it as a recreational place.
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Old 05-25-2021, 05:06 PM   #240
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Default Tuftonboro Public Hearing

Does anyone accurately know when the Town of Tuftonboro will be holding a Public Hearing on this application?

Also, will the hearing be held "virtually" or "in person" ?

Please post if you are able to provide any Town information regarding this.
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Old 05-25-2021, 05:36 PM   #241
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Does anyone accurately know when the Town of Tuftonboro will be holding a Public Hearing on this application?

Also, will the hearing be held "virtually" or "in person" ?

Please post if you are able to provide any Town information regarding this.
It has not been set yet. The selectmen have said they will provide ample public notice before a hearing is held. Also, it is not exactly clear, at least to me, what the hearing will be on, such as whether the wharf can be used for any seaplanes, the commercial tour business, or both. I would expect the selectmen will provide more clarity as to what is even being considered before there is a public hearing.
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:58 PM   #242
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All, I appreciate everyone's support and encouragement with this issue. I have attempted to come here on this forum in good faith.

What I have found is that there are a few people on here who are regular agitators, who enjoy being keyboard warriors.

All one need to do is take a few minutes to search their previous postings to see that they have no interest in doing anything other than attempting to bully others who have other view points. Go back and search threads like "mask wearing in grocery stores" and you will find the very same aggressive behavior that these same agitators are displaying here. What you will find is that (one particular person even had the nerve to call people names who disagree with them. Names typical to the narratives, like xenophobic. Oh the irony, because now they hate on this thread and are completely xenophobic! Their thread had even been locked by the mediator because it got so ugly.) Debating with these individuals is a complete waste of time.

In stead of debate and honesty they just spread hate, division, and only seek to cancel people who disagree with them.

These people are not concerned citizens, they are activists.

Our world does not benefit from these people. These people hate others who disagree with them.

I hope to meet all of you reasonable people some day, but there are people (not everyone) on here who are the very same type of people you would see blocking a highway or organizing a march somewhere. It's always the same very few.

I no longer have the time or energy to respond to these folks. Again, go back and search their previous posts. You will see that their intolerance for others is deafening.

I have a family, a job, and a wonderful life. I thank God for that every day.

Thank you for letting me use this forum to counter the "outrage", and expose who these people really are.

See you all at the (if we have one) public meeting. What you will discover is that we are reasonable, logical, and very considerate individuals who want this town to succeed!

Have a good day everyone.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
Interesting.... I asked some questions in good faith, in this thread and other. But see yet no response. I have read the statement from the State of NH that is the first step in getting FAA approval. And I of course have read your statements here... I repeat to understand what is going on here, There are questions that need answers.....

What are the intentions from a business stand point of Epic Sea Plane Adventures?
Why as part of the survey of the Area, was Fuel depot as a possibility mentioned?
Whey was the idea of a alternate docking solution, tied to the existing fuel dock mentioned?
What type of planes does Epic Seaplane Adventures have access to, that they want to get involved in search and more importantly rescue?
Why when I reserch into Epic Seaplane Adventures do I come across another entity called Self Defense of New England, with the same mailing and Principal office Addresses? This entity was even registered with the state at the approximate the same time.

Something seems off here.... All the information I have requested should be easy for a legitimate business to out line.... And to think that the last bit of information, I was able to find with in a couple of minutes using google.

I am probably one of the people you think is a bad apple, and I am fine with that... I have a long history of working for the betterment of boaters rights within the state of NH.... I know seaplane base and airfield owners, in Vermont, and Maine and New Hampshire,..... If I wasn't so addicted to boating and camping, I would probably take up flying.... But like having a Motor Cycle it is a hobby I don't mind living with out. If you think I am hiding behind a screen, feel free to contact me through a private message, I would like nothing better than to meet, and listen to understand what you are hoping to accomplish. What I don't understand, is when people speak without being ready to back up and detail their intentions.
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Old 05-26-2021, 03:02 PM   #243
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Epic Seaplane Adventures has gone silent.
Maybe he is out on one of his epic adventures!
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Old 05-26-2021, 03:21 PM   #244
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Just as well as everyone has stated their opinions and nothing more to be gained by arguing here.

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Old 05-27-2021, 12:21 PM   #245
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So I have had a chance to talk with Epic Seaplane Adventures(ESA) and with his permission, am going to detail a little bit about what I have found out.

- What is being requested from the FAA, is nothing unusual and likely not even what any of us may have originally thought. It will allow the 19 mile bay landing area to be official recognized and be given a GPS way point, for air navigation. Unfortunately the terminology used "sea plane base" makes it appear more ominous then it really is. Realize that anyone of us could actually do this, if we had a seaplane and had waterfront property.

- ESA's intention, from the usage of the pier is actually pretty simple, if it is easier for him to get in and out, he can use it if needed to pick someone up or drop someone off or even just take a short ride from his place with guests to get some ice-cream. He has no intentions to have his plane there on a regular basis.

- ESA's business is not a full time operation by any stretch of the imagination, he works elsewhere and yes if asked he is willing to give people a tour in his plane....

In my determination after a discussion with ESA, he is really just looking for some consideration, that will enhanced the usability of the wharf.

That said lets move on, ESA didn't file the paper work for the Approval. The owner of Pier 19 did. From their end there is motivation from a business aspect, hence the discussion in the work done to date about creating a gas dock situation, with ethanol free gas. If there are concerns of the commercialization aspects of what is going on they need to be directed there....

Bottom line, cut ESA some slack.... Seaplane have a place on this lake, and deserve the ability to use public assets just like barges, and boaters...
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Old 05-27-2021, 01:26 PM   #246
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This is not directed at ESA but my IMHO commercial enterprise should have to pay for the use of public facilities. There are now more and more businesses on the lake that are dependent on public docks and ramps which in turn denies or delays public access.
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Old 05-27-2021, 01:45 PM   #247
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I read LIforrelaxin’s post, and have to ask why ESA didn’t provide such details directly when asked repeatedly how often he would be using the dock. The details as conveyed by LIforrelaxin seem to contradict to what ESA said in post 94:

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.


This would suggest that, although the business is not yet operating, there is the contemplation that it could ultimately be a 9 tour per day operation. This seems like a classic slippery slope situation—permit commercial use of the dock here and there to run tours, and if it takes off, it will be hard for anyone to then stop it.

That ESA won’t go “on record” directly as to what his intentions are, or the maximum amount of time he would be using the dock, raises a lot of red flags for me.
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Old 05-27-2021, 01:55 PM   #248
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This is not directed at ESA but my IMHO commercial enterprise should have to pay for the use of public facilities. There are now more and more businesses on the lake that are dependent on public docks and ramps which in turn denies or delays public access.
So this is an interesting comment. I have never seen a business causing a situation at a public access point, where I would say they caused an unnecessary delay in public access. The point of public access points, is not only to allow John Q. Citizen access but to also allow business access as well. What I have a seen in a few area's where business entities utilize public access points, to a point that it could be considered causing unnecessary delays, is that those business work with the State and or Towns to improve the access points, so that they can utilize it for their business needs, as well as allow John Q. Citizen the access they desire.. Best example of this State Access on LI, by Harrilla Landing... All improvements there, have been done by the construction company that uses that as their primary loading point on the northern side of the Lake. It was part of the deal struck between the company and the State. I also know there was a water Taxi business that utilized the Weirs dock, and payed the town a fee to do so. Last in the discussions regarding the famous "Dive Bar" they are willing to pay for improvements to the Weirs dock as well........ Just because things are made obvious don't think that business are just allowed to do what ever they want they aren't.....
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Old 05-27-2021, 02:37 PM   #249
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The fact that the wing pretty much goes across the entire wharf blocking quick emergengy vehicle access to the fireboat and fish and game boat is in my opinion the reason planes should not be able to use the wharf. Imagine if there was more than one plane tied up to the wharf and ambulance and fire personnel needed the wharf how could those planes be moved quickly? The answer is they could not.
The store owner and epic should be looking into expanding the store owners dock for this business, perhaps they are. No matter where/if this business is run from I am sure the residents of 19 mile bay are not going to tolerate 9 or so flights a day. Epic can if he chooses can run this business immediately from his private dock on mirror lake. I wonder why he is not doing so?

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Old 05-27-2021, 03:48 PM   #250
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As I have taken the time to introduce myself and have fruitful conversation with ESA, I can now see why he got frustrated. I deal with these types of situations all the time so honestly the bickering on this forum doesn't phase me in the least....

lets talk about a couple of concerns, I am seeing raised.

1st, wing span over the wharf. Do you realize that a sea plane can be re-positioned very easily so that the wings are no longer over the wharf? And of the many pilots I have known of the years, I can't think of one of them that is ignorant enough not to do so if an emergency situation evolved. DEJ, I know you don't think so but is is pretty easy to move a small plane on floats around if you know what you doing.... A neighbor of mine use to do it all the time.. at his property... I myself have moved small planes around on land, once you know where what you can and can't grab a hold of... they move quiet easily.... We aren't talking about 747s here folks....

2nd, I think that everyone (including myself until I talked more with ESA), envision planes potentially be left for long duration. That isn't the case... what is the harm of an attended plane sitting there, that could fairly easily be maneuvered so that the wings didn't interfere with emergency activities. Honestly the situation isn't any worse then when the come to take the fire boat out for an emergency.... they have to get it ready, and people have to get out of the way....

3rd, do folks understand what it takes to secure a plane and leave it for a long duration unattended? its not so simple, and the way things are now, even with the posts shortened, that isn't even a consideration at the wharf.... And as long as the town doesn't allow improvements beyond cutting down the posts there never will be.

Once again cut ESA some slack.... If your concerned about growing business opertunities, the store owner is the one that has a vision that could change things, and add docking that would facilitate SEA Plane fueling at there already existing dock......

I suggest before getting all negative on this whole Idea people go spend some time at a small airfield. Get a feeling for how busy they aren't... Flying is an expensive game.... 19 mile bay will never turn into Manchester airport.... yep on any given weekend maybe a handful of planes would show up.... But not all at once.... and never for very long....... possibility of damage at the existing dock is to great.
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Old 05-27-2021, 04:04 PM   #251
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I am not negative at all regarding this, I just simply oppose the use of the wharf for this business for the reasons I stated. You do not agree, fine. Take care.

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Old 05-27-2021, 04:11 PM   #252
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And as long as the town doesn't allow improvements beyond cutting down the posts there never will be.
How is cutting down the wharf posts an improvement for anyone but Mr. Wood? For many boat operators who want to tie up at the wharf, lower posts could end up being a detriment.

Since you seem to have taken on the role of Mr. Wood's mouthpiece, perhaps you can answer some questions specifically about the wharf posts and how Mr. Wood proposes to secure his seaplane to the wharf, questions that I have asked multiple times here and that Mr. Wood has ignored even as he declared the thread "definitely dead":

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?
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Old 05-27-2021, 07:31 PM   #253
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If all ESA wanted was to periodically stop by to pick people or drop by for an ice cream they didn’t have to get state approval for a seaplane base. As he himself has said a seaplane can land anywhere on the lake, it does not need a state & FAA approved base. As far as a GPS waypoint for navigation, it also doesn’t have to be a fully an official base for one. All they need is a gps unit with a readout to find out what the waypoint is and then you put it on the Seaplane pilots association message board and it is available to everyone who wants to use it.

I agree with CowTimes ESA could have simply answered the questions or posted the same information that Liforrelaxin did. It appears to me that his story has been constantly changing as he sees push back from the public.


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Old 05-27-2021, 07:57 PM   #254
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One other thing that ESA is implicitly requesting is dock space even when he is not docked. If boats tie up while ESA is in the air, he will not be able to let his passengers off. This is very different than the barges. Essentially like The Dive, he needs to rent for the entire summer.
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Old 05-27-2021, 08:42 PM   #255
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Video of selectmen’s meeting :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys


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I think the selectman think this is not a business. I think they are doing a great job but are being mislead. This is a video of the 4/26/21 meeting. They need to be aware that they are planning a sea plan tour business. Have they seen the original facebook posting (see below) of the sea plane tour business? She immediately takes it down and reposts. They are planning a tour business and events to be held there. WATCH this video and the one submitted above by the Real Big Guy. OMG I cant believe this is happening. IF it were not for the tall posts on the town dock they would be using and abusing it right now. They had to tell the town because they wanted to cut down the posts for safety reasons. And the very insane thing is the photo taken for facebook shows how the wing goes over 2/3 of the dock/pier. Thank goodness the town has an ordinance of one hour to park there. I guess you could leave and then come back multiple times and end up using the dock for 5 hours if five trips. And if you ice fish you may not be able to put your bob house where you want to (undetermined ). If you are in favor of this PLEASE watch the videos and YOU determine if this seems sneaky and deceptive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIdXBJi0mK4

Today, Pier 19 Country Store posted on Facebook a photo of the seaplane with a caption under it saying: There’s been a rumor going around that our store is trying to set up a seaplane tour business, it is true! Then within 30 mins later she takes down the post and now says: How exciting it is to be able to have a seaplane drop in for a day. We welcome seaplanes here! I took a screen shot of the original posting
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Old 05-27-2021, 09:20 PM   #256
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The fact that the wing pretty much goes across the entire wharf blocking quick emergengy vehicle access to the fireboat and fish and game boat is in my opinion the reason planes should not be able to use the wharf. Imagine if there was more than one plane tied up to the wharf and ambulance and fire personnel needed the wharf how could those planes be moved quickly? The answer is they could not.
The store owner and epic should be looking into expanding the store owners dock for this business, perhaps they are. No matter where/if this business is run from I am sure the residents of 19 mile bay are not going to tolerate 9 or so flights a day. Epic can if he chooses can run this business immediately from his private dock on mirror lake. I wonder why he is not doing so?

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At the end of your post: ....."Epic can if he chooses can run this business immediately from his private dock on Mirror Lake. I wonder why he is not doing so"?

My guess is that existing zoning "may" prohibit him from operating off of his Mirror Lake Dock. I believe ALL of Mirror Lake is zoned as Residential. Pier 19 is zoned as Business.

Don't take my word for it as it is just a guess on my part, but it does make a lot of sense.
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Old 05-27-2021, 10:17 PM   #257
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Pier 19 is zoned as Business.
Hate to be technical, but this is another process issue that has been ignored so far by the proponents. Pier 19 is in a residential zone and had to request a variance from the Board of Adjustment and Planning Board approval before they could reopen the store with the new owners. As anyone that followed that process knows, this didn’t provide a blank check for all types of commercial operations there. An airport/seaplane tour operation/seaplane base was not included in the variance/Planning Board approvals.
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Old 05-27-2021, 10:32 PM   #258
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As I read some of these posts I ahve to wonder how familar some of your are with unison wharf...... There is a large part of the north side of the dock, that isn't usable for boats except those with almost no draft, like a pontoon boat, or ha ha a float plane.

As for the posts, as a member of the boating public, of over 40 years, and in more area's of the country that I care to count.... The argument here over the dock post height is absolutely ridiculous. Do you realize this isn't even a conversation on most lakes, rivers and the ocean where dock structures don't even include posts ? OMG what do they tie their boats to.....

As I have seen with most debates on this forum, many of you show your novice boating knowledge, and lack of experience of boating anywhere but Winnipesaukee. For some reason people have decided posts are mandatory for safe dockage of a boat..... They aren't... The whole design of union wharf is ridiculous. And honestly it should be taken out and replaced.... But after seeing the debate here, I can't imagine the noise that would be caused by totaling taking out the wharf and installing something that was more practical.

Folks the world is changing, you can fight the change, and end up miserable because you in the end don't end up with what you deem as the perfect environment, or you can embrace change, and move on with light.

As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth. But what I am is someone that listens to all sides of the story.... Much like the speed limit debate, the debate here is become emotional, people are loosing sight of the facts.... A sea plane might not be your couple of tea, neither may a performance boat...... but you know what they have every much a right of to the lake as everyone else.....

I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......

The reason for the FAA approval and designation does nothing more that get a waypoint set for the location, so that it shows up on Maps, and can be used when filing a flight plan.

Cutting down the posts does nothing to effect the use model of the wharf. In fact I am willing to bet some of the barge businesses etc. will enjoy it as well.....

With all the noise over this, honestly it is know wonder, that business at that site continues to struggle.... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.
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Old 05-27-2021, 11:58 PM   #259
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As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.
I am the person that made the mouthpiece reference, because Mr. Wood declared the thread "definitely dead," went away (or at least stopped posting), and then you took up his cause as if he was feeding you his lines.

Discussing something requires two parties. Mr. Wood chose not to answer several questions that I asked him multiple times, after he invited people to ask him questions about his proposed business. I would call that a barrier to a productive discussion.

Mr. Wood did send me a private message and we had at least the beginning of a discussion (although he still didn't answer most of the questions I had asked), until he realized that I was not a Tuftonboro resident or taxpayer, at which point he dismissed me as an "agitator." I guess in Mr. Wood's mind if you aren't a Tuftonboro resident or taxpayer, your opinion about what might happen on the lake or at a Tuftonboro public facility that you use is not relevant; you are just an "agitator" with some kind of vindictive agenda who is in his way. Real classy.
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Old 05-28-2021, 05:05 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
As I read some of these posts I ahve to wonder how familar some of your are with unison wharf...... There is a large part of the north side of the dock, that isn't usable for boats except those with almost no draft, like a pontoon boat, or ha ha a float plane.

As for the posts, as a member of the boating public, of over 40 years, and in more area's of the country that I care to count.... The argument here over the dock post height is absolutely ridiculous. Do you realize this isn't even a conversation on most lakes where dock structures don't even include posts ? OMG what do they tie their boats to.....

As I have seen with most debates on this forum, many of you show your novice boating knowledge, and lack of experience of boating anywhere but Winnipesaukee. For some reason people have decided posts are mandatory for safe dockage of a boat..... They aren't... The whole design of union wharf is ridiculous. And honestly it should be taken out and replaced.... But after seeing the debate here, I can't imagine the noise that would be caused by totaling taking out the wharf and installing something that was more practical.

Folks the world is changing, you can fight the change, and end up miserable because you in the end don't end up with what you deem as the perfect environment, or you can embrace change, and move on with light.

As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth. But what I am is someone that listens to all sides of the story.... Much like the speed limit debate, the debate here is become emotional, people are loosing sight of the facts.... A sea plane might not be your couple of tea, neither may a performance boat...... but you know what they have every much a right of to the lake as everyone else.....

I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......

The reason for the FAA approval and designation does nothing more that get a waypoint set for the location, so that it shows up on Maps, and can be used when filing a flight plan.

Cutting down the posts does nothing to effect the use model of the wharf. In fact I am willing to bet some of the barge businesses etc. will enjoy it as well.....

With all the noise over this, honestly it is know wonder, that business at that site continues to struggle.... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.
I appreciate your pro-local-business stance, I do, but the Go-Fast-Boat analogy is a false equivalency and one that sums up the issue many people have expressed: this is a PUBLIC dock that should not in any way be reserved or limited by COMMERCIAL use.

Assuming the noise isn't really that bad, which there seems to be some question about, I love the idea of having a base there...just NOT on the public's space. Do the work and set up some new docks, work with the store and association, etc. to make it happen, but it's not ok to use public spaces for long periods of time to make money.

A note: there are logical inconsistencies in both Epic's original claims and your repeated ones. For example, it's impossible to know when to book a pick-up at a dock without being sure there will be space to dock. Likewise, without knowing there will be space to return. Both of these require either holding/reserving said space for long periods or taking the chance that the space will just happen to be available each time. We know the latter can't possibly be used for a business making reservations throughout the day.

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Old 05-28-2021, 11:21 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
As I read some of these posts I ahve to wonder how familar some of your are with unison wharf...... There is a large part of the north side of the dock, that isn't usable for boats except those with almost no draft, like a pontoon boat, or ha ha a float plane.

As for the posts, as a member of the boating public, of over 40 years, and in more area's of the country that I care to count.... The argument here over the dock post height is absolutely ridiculous. Do you realize this isn't even a conversation on most lakes where dock structures don't even include posts ? OMG what do they tie their boats to.....

As I have seen with most debates on this forum, many of you show your novice boating knowledge, and lack of experience of boating anywhere but Winnipesaukee. For some reason people have decided posts are mandatory for safe dockage of a boat..... They aren't... The whole design of union wharf is ridiculous. And honestly it should be taken out and replaced.... But after seeing the debate here, I can't imagine the noise that would be caused by totaling taking out the wharf and installing something that was more practical.

Folks the world is changing, you can fight the change, and end up miserable because you in the end don't end up with what you deem as the perfect environment, or you can embrace change, and move on with light.

As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth. But what I am is someone that listens to all sides of the story.... Much like the speed limit debate, the debate here is become emotional, people are loosing sight of the facts.... A sea plane might not be your couple of tea, neither may a performance boat...... but you know what they have every much a right of to the lake as everyone else.....

I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......

The reason for the FAA approval and designation does nothing more that get a waypoint set for the location, so that it shows up on Maps, and can be used when filing a flight plan.

Cutting down the posts does nothing to effect the use model of the wharf. In fact I am willing to bet some of the barge businesses etc. will enjoy it as well.....

With all the noise over this, honestly it is know wonder, that business at that site continues to struggle.... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.
I was unsure at first, but now I definitely think you're ESA's mouthpiece. Far too much passion and length in your posts for us to think you're neutral.

On the specifics--Sure, the optimal height of the posts is debatable and probably not a big deal. The big deals are the noise/intrusion every 30 minutes and the public's ownership of the dock for all. The posts are just one of several tools the town has available if we come to believe this is not in the town's best interest
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Old 05-28-2021, 01:33 PM   #262
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Two things:

1) for LIforrelaxin: in fact the town is waiting to hear on a grant to rebuild Union Wharf. If you watch the Selectmen’s meeting video you will hear it discussed.

2) for those interested: I received an e-mail from a friend who is part of a group of Tuftonboro residents against the proposed seaplane base. It said that there is a Selectmen’s meeting on 6/7 to determine if the question of allowing the use of Union Wharf should move to a public hearing. I personally have not verified this.


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Old 05-28-2021, 03:11 PM   #263
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I was unsure at first, but now I definitely think you're ESA's mouthpiece. Far too much passion and length in your posts for us to think you're neutral.

On the specifics--Sure, the optimal height of the posts is debatable and probably not a big deal. The big deals are the noise/intrusion every 30 minutes and the public's ownership of the dock for all. The posts are just one of several tools the town has available if we come to believe this is not in the town's best interest
You don't know me very well, anytime I choose to voice my opinion and do so at length and with passion. Let me speak about my passion in this case, my passion here is not all about ESA, or Seaplanes.... it is about acknowledging the fact that there can be use models outside of the Norm.

Businesses use union wharf all the time. So that isn't a logistical argument here, you can't say that someone can put a dumpster in the middle of the wharf (which I see done yearly if not more often) and call it ok, but then tell someone they can't bring a sea plane into the dock, because the wings extend out over the dock. So if the public access is deemed not suitable for business then it needs to apply to all business period end of story.....Equal treatment is what this is called, and yes I am very passionate about that.

Now In my eyes, as a public access point, I think that any business should require a permit to use the dock, and pay a fee based on hourly usage to do so.... This includes a private citizen that needs a dumpster placed on the wharf to clean out their island property. In this case the Dumpster company is the business, which would require the property owner to gain the permit and pay the fees....Or a construction company that needs to tie up their barge for a few hours, and load materials....And it extends to a commercial entity simply leaving a boat at the wharf for a longer period of time, then would be considered the norm for a recreation user (i.e. overnight, or over a weekend). This allows the town to control the usage of the pier for other then purely recreation purposes. If this is already going on, then why is everyone up in arms at this point. To operate a business from the wharf ESA would have to get the necessary permits. So my guess is this isn't the current situation.

Now if the FAA grants the runway identification, private pilots will see it as a navigation point, and may chose to stop in and check things out. Once on the water they are a boat, and like any boat have the right to tie up at the wharf safely... having lower posts facilitates that.... Once again I am pretty passionate about equal treatment......

Now if down the road ESA wants to run a sight seeing business, he is going to have to get permits from the town, etc.... To my knowledge that hasn't been done, and that is when the argument in this thread becomes relevant. If down the road the store wants to put in facilities to enable selling gas to sea planes, there will be permits from the Town, DES, and likely the FAA... once again that is the time for the arguments I see in this thread.....

Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment.... the arguments here are not separating out the categories that need to be separated out..... The FAA runway designation is harmless not really worth worrying about, it simply adds a way point marking the location... a location where a sea plane operator could land anyway... I am sorry but private sea-plane operators, should have the same rights and accommodations as private boat owners.

Business aspects and concerns are a different debate, if the town doesn't have regulations in place that would prevent a business from utilizing the wharf with out prior notification then that is a town issue, and mistake.
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Old 05-28-2021, 04:09 PM   #264
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You don't know me very well, anytime I choose to voice my opinion and do so at length and with passion. Let me speak about my passion in this case, my passion here is not all about ESA, or Seaplanes.... it is about acknowledging the fact that there can be use models outside of the Norm.

Businesses use union wharf all the time. So that isn't a logistical argument here, you can't say that someone can put a dumpster in the middle of the wharf (which I see done yearly if not more often) and call it ok, but then tell someone they can't bring a sea plane into the dock, because the wings extend out over the dock. So if the public access is deemed not suitable for business then it needs to apply to all business period end of story.....Equal treatment is what this is called, and yes I am very passionate about that.

Now In my eyes, as a public access point, I think that any business should require a permit to use the dock, and pay a fee based on hourly usage to do so.... This includes a private citizen that needs a dumpster placed on the wharf to clean out their island property. In this case the Dumpster company is the business, which would require the property owner to gain the permit and pay the fees....Or a construction company that needs to tie up their barge for a few hours, and load materials....And it extends to a commercial entity simply leaving a boat at the wharf for a longer period of time, then would be considered the norm for a recreation user (i.e. overnight, or over a weekend). This allows the town to control the usage of the pier for other then purely recreation purposes. If this is already going on, then why is everyone up in arms at this point. To operate a business from the wharf ESA would have to get the necessary permits. So my guess is this isn't the current situation.

Now if the FAA grants the runway identification, private pilots will see it as a navigation point, and may chose to stop in and check things out. Once on the water they are a boat, and like any boat have the right to tie up at the wharf safely... having lower posts facilitates that.... Once again I am pretty passionate about equal treatment......

Now if down the road ESA wants to run a sight seeing business, he is going to have to get permits from the town, etc.... To my knowledge that hasn't been done, and that is when the argument in this thread becomes relevant. If down the road the store wants to put in facilities to enable selling gas to sea planes, there will be permits from the Town, DES, and likely the FAA... once again that is the time for the arguments I see in this thread.....

Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment.... the arguments here are not separating out the categories that need to be separated out..... The FAA runway designation is harmless not really worth worrying about, it simply adds a way point marking the location... a location where a sea plane operator could land anyway... I am sorry but private sea-plane operators, should have the same rights and accommodations as private boat owners.

Business aspects and concerns are a different debate, if the town doesn't have regulations in place that would prevent a business from utilizing the wharf with out prior notification then that is a town issue, and mistake.
The few on here that are accusing you of being a “mouthpiece for ESA” appear to me to be “self-appointed Town of Tuftonboro Officials” with nothing better to do. I wouldn’t give these people the time of day if it were me setting up this operation.
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Old 05-28-2021, 04:14 PM   #265
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Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment....
ESA does have "equal treatment"--he can use the town's existing structures in accordance with the town's existing rules. He is asking for preferential treatment--changing existing structures, changing the length of time one can use those structures.

All for a business that is very likely to annoy his neighbors in order to entertain folks from out of town. Still hard to understand why you're so passionate about this particular topic
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Old 05-28-2021, 04:20 PM   #266
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LIforrelaxin, the next time you and epic talk or PM ask him why he does not run his sight seeing business from his private dock on Mirror Lake where he has a State approved water runway? Several have asked that question in this thread and so far he has refused to answer this and many other questions. Thanks.
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Old 05-28-2021, 04:24 PM   #267
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The few on here that are accusing you of being a “mouthpiece for ESA” appear to me to be “self-appointed Town of Tuftonboro Officials” with nothing better to do. I wouldn’t give these people the time of day if it were me setting up this operation.
No we are residents of the Town of Tuftonboro unlike the "mouthpiece" and we care and are concerned how our town property is or might be used in the future. It is that simple.
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Old 05-28-2021, 08:00 PM   #268
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No we are residents of the Town of Tuftonboro unlike the "mouthpiece" and we care and are concerned how our town property is or might be used in the future. It is that simple.
How do you know I am not a property owner in the town of Tuftonboro? Just because I chose not to advertise, where I have additional properties, don't assume to know where I do and don't have a vested interest....

As far as caring and concerning, I care about the entirety of the lakes region, and in the past have spent countless hours communicating with State officials regarding issues that I have strong opinions about. I back my communications up with facts and knowledge...

Its amazing that I have been able to create friendships with people on this forum over the years even when we don't see eye to eye on polarizing issues. But yet I do because I am willing to listen and accept not everyone views the world the same way I do.

As you continue to post I realize more and more, you are part of a select few people, that over the years have soured this forum, which was once filled with great conversations and peaceful debates. Instead of realizing that you and I don't see eye to eye, you seem to like to continue to take pot shots and guess at what you really know nothing about.
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Old 05-29-2021, 04:12 AM   #269
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How do you know I am not a property owner in the town of Tuftonboro? Just because I chose not to advertise, where I have additional properties, don't assume to know where I do and don't have a vested interest....

As far as caring and concerning, I care about the entirety of the lakes region, and in the past have spent countless hours communicating with State officials regarding issues that I have strong opinions about. I back my communications up with facts and knowledge...

Its amazing that I have been able to create friendships with people on this forum over the years even when we don't see eye to eye on polarizing issues. But yet I do because I am willing to listen and accept not everyone views the world the same way I do.

As you continue to post I realize more and more, you are part of a select few people, that over the years have soured this forum, which was once filled with great conversations and peaceful debates. Instead of realizing that you and I don't see eye to eye, you seem to like to continue to take pot shots and guess at what you really know nothing about.
Property owner and resident are completely different things. I am a resident and can vote on items that affect the town, a property owner cannot. Sucks but that is the way it is. Thanks for the "pot shot" at my character. Makes you no different than what you claim I do. Take care.

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Old 05-29-2021, 05:08 AM   #270
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Now, now fellas, let's keep it civil.

ESA and I chatted in the background a bit, and he shared much of the same with me as he did LI—specifically that this venture is part time and that it would be infrequent enough to be comparable to barge use, etc.

It appears either there's been a problem with messaging (I referenced his post about the proposal to the fire department with all-day hours, which he said was just an off-the-cuff example) or there's been a change in plans or someone is/people are being disingenuous.

Whatever it is, there's a process to solve these issues and going down the path of criticism and condemnation rather than legitimate discussion is both useless and circular.

Seaplanes, small businesses, and fun activities are awesome, and it's important to keep all those things in balance if we want a healthy Lakes Region.

Happy Saturday, friends—let's hope there's a weather miracle this weekend!

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Old 05-29-2021, 06:08 AM   #271
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If anyone has the screenshot of the Facebook post that the Pier 19 Store posted about starting a Seaplane Tour business rumor was true before they deleted it, I would like a copy of it to send to the Town Selectmen.
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Old 05-29-2021, 06:22 AM   #272
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You don't know me very well, anytime I choose to voice my opinion and do so at length and with passion. Let me speak about my passion in this case, my passion here is not all about ESA, or Seaplanes.... it is about acknowledging the fact that there can be use models outside of the Norm.

Businesses use union wharf all the time. So that isn't a logistical argument here, you can't say that someone can put a dumpster in the middle of the wharf (which I see done yearly if not more often) and call it ok, but then tell someone they can't bring a sea plane into the dock, because the wings extend out over the dock. So if the public access is deemed not suitable for business then it needs to apply to all business period end of story.....Equal treatment is what this is called, and yes I am very passionate about that.

Now In my eyes, as a public access point, I think that any business should require a permit to use the dock, and pay a fee based on hourly usage to do so.... This includes a private citizen that needs a dumpster placed on the wharf to clean out their island property. In this case the Dumpster company is the business, which would require the property owner to gain the permit and pay the fees....Or a construction company that needs to tie up their barge for a few hours, and load materials....And it extends to a commercial entity simply leaving a boat at the wharf for a longer period of time, then would be considered the norm for a recreation user (i.e. overnight, or over a weekend). This allows the town to control the usage of the pier for other then purely recreation purposes. If this is already going on, then why is everyone up in arms at this point. To operate a business from the wharf ESA would have to get the necessary permits. So my guess is this isn't the current situation.

Now if the FAA grants the runway identification, private pilots will see it as a navigation point, and may chose to stop in and check things out. Once on the water they are a boat, and like any boat have the right to tie up at the wharf safely... having lower posts facilitates that.... Once again I am pretty passionate about equal treatment......

Now if down the road ESA wants to run a sight seeing business, he is going to have to get permits from the town, etc.... To my knowledge that hasn't been done, and that is when the argument in this thread becomes relevant. If down the road the store wants to put in facilities to enable selling gas to sea planes, there will be permits from the Town, DES, and likely the FAA... once again that is the time for the arguments I see in this thread.....

Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment.... the arguments here are not separating out the categories that need to be separated out..... The FAA runway designation is harmless not really worth worrying about, it simply adds a way point marking the location... a location where a sea plane operator could land anyway... I am sorry but private sea-plane operators, should have the same rights and accommodations as private boat owners.

Business aspects and concerns are a different debate, if the town doesn't have regulations in place that would prevent a business from utilizing the wharf with out prior notification then that is a town issue, and mistake.
Just an FYI. The dumpsters you see placed on the wharf yearly are placed there by the town of Tuftonboro (owner of the Wharf) and at the towns request to support island residents with the disposal of large trash. Apples & oranges to ESA’s proposed use.


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Old 05-29-2021, 07:49 AM   #273
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Now, now fellas, let's keep it civil.

ESA and I chatted in the background a bit, and he shared much of the same with me as he did LI—specifically that this venture is part time and that it would be infrequent enough to be comparable to barge use, etc.

It appears either there's been a problem with messaging (I referenced his post about the proposal to the fire department with all-day hours, which he said was just an off-the-cuff example) or there's been a change in plans or someone is/people are being disingenuous.

Whatever it is, there's a process to solve these issues and going down the path of criticism and condemnation rather than legitimate discussion is both useless and circular.

Seaplanes, small businesses, and fun activities are awesome, and it's important to keep all those things in balance if we want a healthy Lakes Region.

Happy Saturday, friends—let's hope there's a weather miracle this weekend!

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I agree on civility, and appreciate your always friendly approach.

But I think if you review all of ESA/Pier 19's various communications, you will question their credibility, and will have no doubt that their desire is a steady stream of flights every weekend. That's asking an awful lot of those who live there. (I am not in this group--I boat there once every week or two) Wouldn't you be pretty upset if these flights were taking off and landing at your camp every half hour?

Also, on civility/credibility--ESA posted something along the lines of the world would be a better place without his detractors. That's an extraordinarily nasty thing to write. I can't remember anything nastier on this forum.
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Old 05-29-2021, 08:51 AM   #274
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I agree on civility, and appreciate your always friendly approach.

But I think if you review all of ESA/Pier 19's various communications, you will question their credibility, and will have no doubt that their desire is a steady stream of flights every weekend. That's asking an awful lot of those who live there. (I am not in this group--I boat there once every week or two) Wouldn't you be pretty upset if these flights were taking off and landing at your camp every half hour?

Also, on civility/credibility--ESA posted something along the lines of the world would be a better place without his detractors. That's an extraordinarily nasty thing to write. I can't remember anything nastier on this forum.
I addressed the appearance of mixed messages. What is really in flux will be determined during whatever hearing/process there is to be—it's not going to happen here.

And, even though I'm clearly not in favor of allowing commercial entities (long-term) use of public facilities (see also: comments on The Dive), I'm going to hope a solution is found that serves all as best as possible. That's what official processes are supposed to do, and do respectfully.

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Old 05-29-2021, 09:33 AM   #275
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Keep in mind that the operating costs of a seaplane are not small. At only 3 passengers per flight, occasional flights a few times a week are not profitable. So what exactly is the business plan? In order to make it worth the fuel, insurance, time..etc.. then I would guess it would have to be more than occasional weekend flights..
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Old 05-29-2021, 09:50 AM   #276
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Property owner and resident are completely different things. I am a resident and can vote on items that affect the town, a property owner cannot. Sucks but that is the way it is. Thanks for the "pot shot" at my character. Makes you no different than what you claim I do. Take care.
You're right as a just a property owner I can't vote, but it does mean I have the right to speak to the town board, and with public official if I should so chose. Sometimes the public officials brush you off because they know you can't vote, but as a land owner, you have access to all the towns facilities, personal, and amenities.....

As it happens I am not even a resident of the State of NH, yet I have spent more time lobbying for various things in NH, then most residents. I take the time and have discussed at length many issues, with State Senators, and Congressman a like. I have also done this at the town level, because ultimately I have tax dollars that I invest into the state every year, and while it doesn't give me the right to vote (which I agree with)... it does give me the right to have my say and speak... And I find that most people and officials respect that. Why Because of how I approach the issues, because I look at all sides to the situation, and can take complex issue like we have here and seperate out all the aspects..... There are two issues here:

1. Designation for the 19 Mile Bay runway and Seaplane base, This is an FAA issues, doesn't even concern the town..

2. Issue would be the physical construction and development of said seaplane base and any commercial enterprises from it.

Issue #1 is in process and does no real harm, except add a way point, and an offical landing strip to maps and aeronautical GPS systems.... Sea Planes have the right to land on the lake already, and once on the water are considered a boat... The FAA paperwork has changed nothing, does not give ESA or the pier19 store the right to physically create a sea base, stop arguing over it.

Item #2, is what everyone is in arms over..... If Pier 19 wishes to work on the fuel dock or create a physical Sea Plane base, they will have to apply for permits from the state, DES etc. etc. etc. That is when and where you need to have this fight.... As for ESA, I would assume that the town of Tuftonboro would require him to have a business license to operate in the town, and further more an additional permit for him to utilize the Union Wharf to conduct that business. If the town doesn't have those requirements, then there is a problem with the town bi-laws, and that is where the frustration should be.

To this point, I have not seen evidence that a law has been broken, or a short cut been taken to try and avoid consequences... What I continue to see however is people afraid of change, that isn't change they agree with.....

Once again I will come back to a statement I made earlier:
I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......
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Old 05-29-2021, 10:15 AM   #277
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Default Pier 19 facebook post stating they were planning a tour business

Pier 19 posted the one that is presently on their facebook page on 4:19 on 5/22. Later they posted this on a 4:43 and was taken down almost immediately. Unfortunately the part of title is only there. When you clicked it says "There is a rumor going around that Pier 19 is trying to set up a seaplane tour business, it is true!" It was immediately taken down.
If they deny that they are lying.

They are trying to make the selectman think this is only a few times a day and not a tour business. When you watch the video of the selectmens meeting they are dancing around the subject. That is exactly their plans. Epic plays a smooth used car salesman. It is horrifying to watch.
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Old 05-29-2021, 11:41 AM   #278
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When can I get a ride?????
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Old 05-29-2021, 03:38 PM   #279
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Hi everyone. I want to clear the air about a lot of misinformation going around. I choose to do it here because on other forums people like to hide behind screen names and push false narratives. Please if anyone needs anything just call me up! Maybe I can take you for a ride!
1. I have started a small part time business called Epic Seaplane Adventures. I did this mostly because of the pandemic and needed a backup plan in case my real job went away. I have given so many rides in my plane people have always suggested that I charge for them, so I started the process of getting it running. I don't plan on interrupting my "lake life" but if you want an "air tour" I'm getting a website up and going. You could make a reservation and I can come to you if you have a private dock and I've been looking around for places (such as the Tuftonboro Town Dock) to be able to pick you up from. I can also do it from my place as well. So it's not specific, we just need to have the conversation, but can do it from anywhere really.
2. The woman who owns the Pier 19 Marketplace has been great! She is very enthusiastic about attracting business to her place. She and I put a proposal to the town to make the Public Dock Posts lower to allow, not just my plane, but any seaplane to approach safely without fear of hitting our tail on the dock. Also, we proposed adding some cushioning to the dock on the North Side. Doing this will then make the dock a more useful spot, not just for planes but for boats too. Contrary to the narrative being pushed this business will not be attached to Pier 19 Market Place. Just because she is helping promote it doesn't make it true. No one is going to set up shop on the dock, period end of story.
3. As you can imagine this has created a lot of buzz, especially for people who don't understand that seaplanes are legal here and allowed to land wherever it is safe. New Hampshire is not like other states and we are proud of that! I've heard everything from you can't block the fire boat to you can't use the dock for commercial purposes. Blocking the fireboat is not an issue because pilots can move the planes (they would never be left unattended and can be spun very quickly so their wing doesn't go over the dock see the photo) and commercial barges use the docks all the time for various reasons. Even the town puts a dumpster on the pier from time to time. (see photos of the town dock being blocked for commercial purposes and for private purposes as well)
4. There is a huge misconception that there is a seaplane "base" being developed in 19 Mile Bay. "Base" is a very scary word to the lay person. I can assure you it's only a specific FAA term. This was caused because the owner of Pier 19 Market Place, did what anyone can, (it's what I did with Mirror Lake and others have done such as Winter Harbor) and applied to the state and FAA (free of charge) to have 19 Mile Bay surveyed and registered as a Seaplane Landing Area. This does nothing more than allow 19 Mile Bay to be listed on an aviation chart and databases so that pilots can file flight plans to and from for safety reasons. So this outrage over a "base" is hyperbolic.
5. I invite anyone to get ahold of me to talk about this "business", more like a tax right off, that I can now charge people for taking rides! I can assure all of you that there is zero intention of making 19 Mile Bay an international airport. Let's all stop the panic now.
6. I have had some very disturbing ugly "threats" toward me. Some have stated that they will "block me" or any other planes from landing due to the right of way laws (because landing planes must technically give way to all vessels on the water). Some have come up with ideas of forming a blockade on the water or zig zagging in front of the landing plane to stop them. I want people to know that operating in a manner that jeopardizes safety intentionally to disrupt or harm someone is illegal and it's just not nice. If you have ever been over to Mirror Lake or know anyone over there, just come over and talk to us. They can tell you how much fun it is and how we all get along and operate safely.
7. There is a group of home owners on 19 Mile Bay that is forming an opposition to the idea of seaplanes coming in and out. Let's not name call them, but there is an acronym for this called NIMBY (stands for NOT IN MY BACKYARD). These folks are rallying support by spreading false information. If you run into them or are one of them feel free to get ahold of me to discuss this issue. I'm open to all comments. Each time I run into someone and discuss this issue with them the always walk away with a completely different idea of what they originally were told was happening. These people without the proper information are already talking about boycotting the Pier 19 Store! It's amazing how emotion and misinformation gets people upset. In this day and age of the internet people just look for reasons to be upset!
8. I grew up here and love this town. I'm a local guy. I can assure you that I'm not going to ruin anything or destroy what we all love. When I operate I do it with respect and love for this area and will continue to do so everyday. We need to be respectful of everyone. We all need equal access and treatment. That is all we are asking for! If people can block the dock for loading and unloading their stuff to go to the island, I just ask for the same access. (see photos) If commercial barges can come to the dock and do it for hire, I just ask for the same treatment and access. (see photos) Nothing more nothing less.
9. Lastly, to people who just openly don't want airplanes here, I'm not throwing this in your face at all, but the reality is that they are perfectly legal and there is nothing you can do about it. This is not a fight you will win. You do not own the lake, it's the state's property and seaplanes, just like your boat, have a right to come here. Again, this isn't a fight, it's a fact. It's a non arguable.
10. I ask for your support. Please email the selectman (selectmen@tuftonboro.org) to show support to allow us to lower the dock posts (see conceptual picture attached) and add cushioning to the dock at NO COST TO THE TAX PAYER. We will not alter the dock to change it's use in any way. In fact, we will improve it so that even more boaters can access it. Keep in mind that even if the dock posts don't get lowered that it will not prevent seaplanes from coming here. (see the photo of it there, notice the dock posts)
I'm sure some of you will have questions. I come on here in good faith. Please ask away! Nothing ugly. I accept hard questions. I just think this is a better forum than other forums where you can hide behind screen names.
Thank you all for your time.
T.R. Wood
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Old 05-29-2021, 04:11 PM   #280
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Best of luck I wish you nothing but success in your venture. Not a true comparison but nobody complains about the seaplane in paugus bay.


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Old 05-29-2021, 07:32 PM   #281
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Default Watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys

Epic,
Sorry I don't believe anything you say. I have watched this video multiple times and come up with the same thing. You want your business based at the town docks. What about the insurance and liability that the selectmen discussed. You don't bring those things up! Run the business from your own dock. Your story keeps changing. Yes many don't want a seaplane tour business run out of Nineteen Mile Bay! You persona in the selectmens meeting was anything but humble but more about "we are going to do it no matter what"! Maybe some fair acting ability. "excellent question"
"excellent question" I never thought of that when referring to the concerns of the fireboat. I urge everyone to watch this video before you comment about yay or nay. People in 19 Mile Bay please watch and comment. Are there only a few who have watched this and feel the same way? I would like to hear everyone's comment after they watch the youtube video of the meeting.
The way you went about this was deceitful. Now tell me how much more business will Pier 19 get with the tour business? If she is not getting anything but a few patrons extra from your business why is she putting her neck out. Sounds like there is more to this. The scary thing is you said if a seaplane wants to land they have to call her!!! That is very scary. Of course she would never say no. Safe or not safe.
I have no qualms about a few seaplanes landing but I do have concerns about a tour business from the public dock.
This tour business is not going to help her store.
Watch people watch. There was no mention of a TOUR BUSINESS. Now that is deceitful!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys
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Old 05-29-2021, 08:35 PM   #282
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Epic,
Sorry I don't believe anything you say. I have watched this video multiple times and come up with the same thing. You want your business based at the town docks. What about the insurance and liability that the selectmen discussed. You don't bring those things up! Run the business from your own dock. Your story keeps changing. Yes many don't want a seaplane tour business run out of Nineteen Mile Bay! You persona in the selectmens meeting was anything but humble but more about "we are going to do it no matter what"! Maybe some fair acting ability. "excellent question"
"excellent question" I never thought of that when referring to the concerns of the fireboat. I urge everyone to watch this video before you comment about yay or nay. People in 19 Mile Bay please watch and comment. Are there only a few who have watched this and feel the same way? I would like to hear everyone's comment after they watch the youtube video of the meeting.
The way you went about this was deceitful. Now tell me how much more business will Pier 19 get with the tour business? If she is not getting anything but a few patrons extra from your business why is she putting her neck out. Sounds like there is more to this. The scary thing is you said if a seaplane wants to land they have to call her!!! That is very scary. Of course she would never say no. Safe or not safe.
I have no qualms about a few seaplanes landing but I do have concerns about a tour business from the public dock.
This tour business is not going to help her store.
Watch people watch. There was no mention of a TOUR BUSINESS. Now that is deceitful!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys
So this video is very interesting. I don't think it shows ESA or Pier 19 in sort of damaging light. What it does show is that the town selectmen, Peir 19 owner and even ESA, don't have the proper knowledge about boating laws in the state.

If offshore boats go ripping up and down that bay, causing a noise issue. The governing body is not the town at all, nor can the town do anything about it. What would happen would be that the Marine Patrol would be called. They could and would come to the area, perform field noise tests, and order any non-conforming boats off the lake......I know that law well, and how it is enforced.

What I believe this video show is an open dialogue between the town, ESA, and Peir19.... It seems to me the correct process are actually going on... I found it interesting that one of the Selectman even acknowledge that nothing wrong was done, that the state owns the water. What we seem to have here on the forum, is some very loud lobbyists against the idea. Absolutely no different then what happened on this forum with the speed limit on the lake.....

To those lobbyist, be loud that is your right, but ESA, has just laid out his number and name, for people to contact.... Will you do the same, I would love to talk to you and get your side of the story as well.....I am all about listening because the truth is always somewhere in the middle.
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Old 05-29-2021, 08:38 PM   #283
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Hi everyone. I want to clear the air about a lot of misinformation going around. I choose to do it here because on other forums people like to hide behind screen names and push false narratives. Please if anyone needs anything just call me up! Maybe I can take you for a ride!
1. I have started a small part time business called Epic Seaplane Adventures. I did this mostly because of the pandemic and needed a backup plan in case my real job went away. I have given so many rides in my plane people have always suggested that I charge for them, so I started the process of getting it running. I don't plan on interrupting my "lake life" but if you want an "air tour" I'm getting a website up and going. You could make a reservation and I can come to you if you have a private dock and I've been looking around for places (such as the Tuftonboro Town Dock) to be able to pick you up from. I can also do it from my place as well. So it's not specific, we just need to have the conversation, but can do it from anywhere really.
2. The woman who owns the Pier 19 Marketplace has been great! She is very enthusiastic about attracting business to her place. She and I put a proposal to the town to make the Public Dock Posts lower to allow, not just my plane, but any seaplane to approach safely without fear of hitting our tail on the dock. Also, we proposed adding some cushioning to the dock on the North Side. Doing this will then make the dock a more useful spot, not just for planes but for boats too. Contrary to the narrative being pushed this business will not be attached to Pier 19 Market Place. Just because she is helping promote it doesn't make it true. No one is going to set up shop on the dock, period end of story.
3. As you can imagine this has created a lot of buzz, especially for people who don't understand that seaplanes are legal here and allowed to land wherever it is safe. New Hampshire is not like other states and we are proud of that! I've heard everything from you can't block the fire boat to you can't use the dock for commercial purposes. Blocking the fireboat is not an issue because pilots can move the planes (they would never be left unattended and can be spun very quickly so their wing doesn't go over the dock see the photo) and commercial barges use the docks all the time for various reasons. Even the town puts a dumpster on the pier from time to time. (see photos of the town dock being blocked for commercial purposes and for private purposes as well)
4. There is a huge misconception that there is a seaplane "base" being developed in 19 Mile Bay. "Base" is a very scary word to the lay person. I can assure you it's only a specific FAA term. This was caused because the owner of Pier 19 Market Place, did what anyone can, (it's what I did with Mirror Lake and others have done such as Winter Harbor) and applied to the state and FAA (free of charge) to have 19 Mile Bay surveyed and registered as a Seaplane Landing Area. This does nothing more than allow 19 Mile Bay to be listed on an aviation chart and databases so that pilots can file flight plans to and from for safety reasons. So this outrage over a "base" is hyperbolic.
5. I invite anyone to get ahold of me to talk about this "business", more like a tax right off, that I can now charge people for taking rides! I can assure all of you that there is zero intention of making 19 Mile Bay an international airport. Let's all stop the panic now.
6. I have had some very disturbing ugly "threats" toward me. Some have stated that they will "block me" or any other planes from landing due to the right of way laws (because landing planes must technically give way to all vessels on the water). Some have come up with ideas of forming a blockade on the water or zig zagging in front of the landing plane to stop them. I want people to know that operating in a manner that jeopardizes safety intentionally to disrupt or harm someone is illegal and it's just not nice. If you have ever been over to Mirror Lake or know anyone over there, just come over and talk to us. They can tell you how much fun it is and how we all get along and operate safely.
7. There is a group of home owners on 19 Mile Bay that is forming an opposition to the idea of seaplanes coming in and out. Let's not name call them, but there is an acronym for this called NIMBY (stands for NOT IN MY BACKYARD). These folks are rallying support by spreading false information. If you run into them or are one of them feel free to get ahold of me to discuss this issue. I'm open to all comments. Each time I run into someone and discuss this issue with them the always walk away with a completely different idea of what they originally were told was happening. These people without the proper information are already talking about boycotting the Pier 19 Store! It's amazing how emotion and misinformation gets people upset. In this day and age of the internet people just look for reasons to be upset!
8. I grew up here and love this town. I'm a local guy. I can assure you that I'm not going to ruin anything or destroy what we all love. When I operate I do it with respect and love for this area and will continue to do so everyday. We need to be respectful of everyone. We all need equal access and treatment. That is all we are asking for! If people can block the dock for loading and unloading their stuff to go to the island, I just ask for the same access. (see photos) If commercial barges can come to the dock and do it for hire, I just ask for the same treatment and access. (see photos) Nothing more nothing less.
9. Lastly, to people who just openly don't want airplanes here, I'm not throwing this in your face at all, but the reality is that they are perfectly legal and there is nothing you can do about it. This is not a fight you will win. You do not own the lake, it's the state's property and seaplanes, just like your boat, have a right to come here. Again, this isn't a fight, it's a fact. It's a non arguable.
10. I ask for your support. Please email the selectman (selectmen@tuftonboro.org) to show support to allow us to lower the dock posts (see conceptual picture attached) and add cushioning to the dock at NO COST TO THE TAX PAYER. We will not alter the dock to change it's use in any way. In fact, we will improve it so that even more boaters can access it. Keep in mind that even if the dock posts don't get lowered that it will not prevent seaplanes from coming here. (see the photo of it there, notice the dock posts)
I'm sure some of you will have questions. I come on here in good faith. Please ask away! Nothing ugly. I accept hard questions. I just think this is a better forum than other forums where you can hide behind screen names.
Thank you all for your time.
T.R. Wood
Epic Seaplane Adventures
603-724-9104
Back with the same ole, same ole...

1. So it’s a business.. one that you want to make profitable. The only way to do that is is fly a lot of sightseeing passengers. At 3 pax per trip, you gotta do a lot! So, how much do you plan to do from the town docks?
2. You probably don’t know much of the history of the store owner and her fight with the slip owners. She has alienated many people in the bay already so she is not trusted by some. What’s in it for her? Who approached who? It’s disingenuous to suggest she has no vested interest but that doesn’t pass the smell test. We all know she is counting on your passengers in her store to increase traffic. And, to make it profitable she’ll expect a lot of passengers.
3. You keep comparing yourself to barges but just because you keep repeating it doesn’t make it so. Barges earn their money from someone’s property on the island not because the town dock. You on the other hand ...
4. Nobody, I think, cares about the FAA designation. They care because you plan to base your operation from it...just like Jetblue has it HQ in NY but “bases” it’s flights from Boston or Orlando. You’re being very sly in how you parse it but we all know what it is.
5. Stupid comment. International airport? Please...
6. There is no excuse for any threats ...period.
7. Those homeowners in 19 mile bay are the most affected by this venture. They have every right to oppose it as it directly affects their quality of life on the lake. To be tone deaf to that shows a troublesome attitude.
8 & 9. We can agree on our equal love of the lake.. Anyone who has been here any length of time knows seaplanes share the waterways with boaters. It’s part of lake life. But to rub noses in it by saying “there is nothing you can do about it” does nothing but strengthen the resolve of those opposed to you.
This is simply a case of a pair of business owners trying to use a public use dock for a floatplane sightseeing operation that has an impact on those who use the docks daily.
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:40 AM   #284
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Good luck Eric on the venture and if the block you for some reason I hope you spend every resource you have trying to shut down that “port” for barges and boats that are not using as they should also…


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Old 05-30-2021, 02:08 PM   #285
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Hi everyone. I want to clear the air about a lot of misinformation going around. I choose to do it here because on other forums people like to hide behind screen names and push false narratives. Please if anyone needs anything just call me up! Maybe I can take you for a ride!
1. I have started a small part time business called Epic Seaplane Adventures. I did this mostly because of the pandemic and needed a backup plan in case my real job went away. I have given so many rides in my plane people have always suggested that I charge for them, so I started the process of getting it running. I don't plan on interrupting my "lake life" but if you want an "air tour" I'm getting a website up and going. You could make a reservation and I can come to you if you have a private dock and I've been looking around for places (such as the Tuftonboro Town Dock) to be able to pick you up from. I can also do it from my place as well. So it's not specific, we just need to have the conversation, but can do it from anywhere really.
2. The woman who owns the Pier 19 Marketplace has been great! She is very enthusiastic about attracting business to her place. She and I put a proposal to the town to make the Public Dock Posts lower to allow, not just my plane, but any seaplane to approach safely without fear of hitting our tail on the dock. Also, we proposed adding some cushioning to the dock on the North Side. Doing this will then make the dock a more useful spot, not just for planes but for boats too. Contrary to the narrative being pushed this business will not be attached to Pier 19 Market Place. Just because she is helping promote it doesn't make it true. No one is going to set up shop on the dock, period end of story.
3. As you can imagine this has created a lot of buzz, especially for people who don't understand that seaplanes are legal here and allowed to land wherever it is safe. New Hampshire is not like other states and we are proud of that! I've heard everything from you can't block the fire boat to you can't use the dock for commercial purposes. Blocking the fireboat is not an issue because pilots can move the planes (they would never be left unattended and can be spun very quickly so their wing doesn't go over the dock see the photo) and commercial barges use the docks all the time for various reasons. Even the town puts a dumpster on the pier from time to time. (see photos of the town dock being blocked for commercial purposes and for private purposes as well)
4. There is a huge misconception that there is a seaplane "base" being developed in 19 Mile Bay. "Base" is a very scary word to the lay person. I can assure you it's only a specific FAA term. This was caused because the owner of Pier 19 Market Place, did what anyone can, (it's what I did with Mirror Lake and others have done such as Winter Harbor) and applied to the state and FAA (free of charge) to have 19 Mile Bay surveyed and registered as a Seaplane Landing Area. This does nothing more than allow 19 Mile Bay to be listed on an aviation chart and databases so that pilots can file flight plans to and from for safety reasons. So this outrage over a "base" is hyperbolic.
5. I invite anyone to get ahold of me to talk about this "business", more like a tax right off, that I can now charge people for taking rides! I can assure all of you that there is zero intention of making 19 Mile Bay an international airport. Let's all stop the panic now.
6. I have had some very disturbing ugly "threats" toward me. Some have stated that they will "block me" or any other planes from landing due to the right of way laws (because landing planes must technically give way to all vessels on the water). Some have come up with ideas of forming a blockade on the water or zig zagging in front of the landing plane to stop them. I want people to know that operating in a manner that jeopardizes safety intentionally to disrupt or harm someone is illegal and it's just not nice. If you have ever been over to Mirror Lake or know anyone over there, just come over and talk to us. They can tell you how much fun it is and how we all get along and operate safely.
7. There is a group of home owners on 19 Mile Bay that is forming an opposition to the idea of seaplanes coming in and out. Let's not name call them, but there is an acronym for this called NIMBY (stands for NOT IN MY BACKYARD). These folks are rallying support by spreading false information. If you run into them or are one of them feel free to get ahold of me to discuss this issue. I'm open to all comments. Each time I run into someone and discuss this issue with them the always walk away with a completely different idea of what they originally were told was happening. These people without the proper information are already talking about boycotting the Pier 19 Store! It's amazing how emotion and misinformation gets people upset. In this day and age of the internet people just look for reasons to be upset!
8. I grew up here and love this town. I'm a local guy. I can assure you that I'm not going to ruin anything or destroy what we all love. When I operate I do it with respect and love for this area and will continue to do so everyday. We need to be respectful of everyone. We all need equal access and treatment. That is all we are asking for! If people can block the dock for loading and unloading their stuff to go to the island, I just ask for the same access. (see photos) If commercial barges can come to the dock and do it for hire, I just ask for the same treatment and access. (see photos) Nothing more nothing less.
9. Lastly, to people who just openly don't want airplanes here, I'm not throwing this in your face at all, but the reality is that they are perfectly legal and there is nothing you can do about it. This is not a fight you will win. You do not own the lake, it's the state's property and seaplanes, just like your boat, have a right to come here. Again, this isn't a fight, it's a fact. It's a non arguable.
10. I ask for your support. Please email the selectman (selectmen@tuftonboro.org) to show support to allow us to lower the dock posts (see conceptual picture attached) and add cushioning to the dock at NO COST TO THE TAX PAYER. We will not alter the dock to change it's use in any way. In fact, we will improve it so that even more boaters can access it. Keep in mind that even if the dock posts don't get lowered that it will not prevent seaplanes from coming here. (see the photo of it there, notice the dock posts)
I'm sure some of you will have questions. I come on here in good faith. Please ask away! Nothing ugly. I accept hard questions. I just think this is a better forum than other forums where you can hide behind screen names.
Thank you all for your time.
T.R. Wood
Epic Seaplane Adventures
603-724-9104
I got no dog in this fight however I am empathetic to the plight of those who are directly affected by your proposed use of 19 mile bay. Sadly you do not appear to be.

1 - I have no problems with you establishing a small business, in fact I applaud anyone who does and is successful at it. So kudos to you for effort. Your execution is where the problem lies. Whether or not you are from the area, grew up in the area or have a self proclaimed love of the area does not take away from the fact you are operating a business that impacts an area where other citizens are impacted negatively. Their opposition to you operating in the area on a regular basis to me seems reasonable. While you and many others may not relate to their concerns to disregard them as some how misguided or full of misinformation is simply wrong and quite sad.

2- The woman who owns the pier 19 store is quickly gaining a reputation as being unreasonable and hostile, especially towards the pier 19 slip owners. This has resulted in altercations which have included calls to the police, damage done to association assets and a failure to follow or even acknowledge bylaws set forth by the very association the store is legally tied to. This likely will result in a court battle. Being associated with a business operator like this does not give you a very good public perception.

3 - Just because NH is a sea plane friendly place does not mean it is appropriate to just land wherever and disturb whoever just because you "can". That sort of attitude is not gaining you any favor with those that oppose your business venture, much like the pier 19 store owner, being at odds with others is one thing, to flaunt it as "I have the legal right to do so" is just going to further enrage the opposition and create more problems for you. It's amazing you don't see this. However roll the dice as one thing you may find out, property owners, especially lake front owners may themselves be lawyers, or fellow pilots, and have lots of connections that if leveraged could create a whole lot of expensive litigation for you - enough to sink your business.

4 - I do agree the term sea plane base seems to infer something a bit more substantial than what you are proposing, seems that some education is needed there for those who stand in opposition.

5 - the reason or business model you are engaging in is basically irrelevant. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting you are creating an international airport!

6 - There is no need for and I certainly do not condone threats of any kind. However if boaters do choose to stack the docks with boats, park or hang out in a proposed landing area that too is their right to do so - to suggest otherwise is in your words preventing equal access and discriminatory.

7 - I refer back to the aforementioned, if there are those who are directly impacted by this looking to stand in solidarity against your proposal that is their right to do so. It is up to you to figure out a way to ease their concerns or face an uphill battle with folks that again are likely to create a whole lot of problems for you. They have every right to also not to patronize the pier 19 store and likely have good reason to beyond operating your business. Nobody is obligated to use it.

8 - Again you are asking for more than equal access - you are asking for the pier to be modified especially for YOU. No other users of the pier give a damn how long the posts are.

9 - Your tone here is classic, "I'm not throwing this in your face...." but you are. In a matter of fact I don't care attitude. This is not winning you any further support, instead it is turning more folks against your idea. If you don't think this can be stopped, better think again. No rafting and no wake zones at one point didn't exist either and do now. No landing zones I can see coming if you're not careful here.

10 - after all that you are looking for support, well I can tell you support will come once you start spending your energy on finding ways to work with those that stand in opposition and not by further enraging them by saying I'm doing this and there isn't anything you can do about it. You may just find with enough people on board and money behind it, something can and will be done about it.

This goes beyond altering the dock and has everything to do with creating yet another major disturbance in the general area on a regular basis. Understand that your passion for flying may not be shared with others. Just as my passion for shooting is not shared by others and as such the noise I create I am very much aware of and thus try to find places where it will not disturb others even though legally I could shoot right in my back yard so long as I am 300 feet away from an occupied residence. Just because I can and well within my legal rights to do so on my OWN property doesn't mean I do. Having a little common courtesy will go a long way as I see the nay sayers growing in numbers and volume.

Good luck in your endeavors.
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Old 05-30-2021, 04:32 PM   #286
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I spent a lot of time working around seaplanes in Canada. Loading, unloading, fueling, moving and assisting passengers on and off. It was a regular event when someone slips and falls off the dock or floatplane. Some were hurt seriously enough to go see the Dr. so, how much insurance does the town have? How much does Epic have? I think the liability here is too high.
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Old 05-30-2021, 06:38 PM   #287
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Good luck Eric on the venture and if the block you for some reason I hope you spend every resource you have trying to shut down that “port” for barges and boats that are not using as they should also…


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The problem, of course, is that the barges have been using the wharf for decades and such use is expressly permitted by town ordinance. That, of course, makes perfect sense, because without public access for barges, the Tuftonboro islands could never have been developed and would not be able to be maintained. The development of Tuftonboro islands has provided the town with millions of dollars of tax revenues over the years. That will not change. Try another argument.
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Old 05-31-2021, 11:49 AM   #288
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The problem, of course, is that the barges have been using the wharf for decades and such use is expressly permitted by town ordinance. That, of course, makes perfect sense, because without public access for barges, the Tuftonboro islands could never have been developed and would not be able to be maintained. The development of Tuftonboro islands has provided the town with millions of dollars of tax revenues over the years. That will not change. Try another argument.
Yes of course! The town ordinance finally permitted the development of the islands! That's it! Because prior to March 9th, 1988, The islands were undeveloped and uninhabited. (Insert sarcasm here. Still hiding behind Cowtimes).

You pushing this point only negates your point. Prior to the town ordinance they were able to use many other places as well. Not until people, not unlike yourself, complained enough about the barges that they made this ordinance. But nice try.

The poor barge companies have been under attack for decades and now you are boxing them in even further. Now your argument may eliminate their usage of the warf as well. You do realize your heading down that road. I hope you don't push the no commercial usage argument in public.
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Old 05-31-2021, 12:10 PM   #289
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You said post #279 was your last post, I guess not!
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Old 05-31-2021, 12:18 PM   #290
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You said post #279 was your last post, I guess not!
I guess I can't let false points stand in a vacuum... Because after all, those who speak to me directly and find out the information get called "mouthpiece"...

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Old 05-31-2021, 12:19 PM   #291
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You crack me up.
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Old 05-31-2021, 12:28 PM   #292
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You crack me up.
I'm sure if we sat down and had a couple of beers we could end up friends and you would have a changed mind.

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Old 05-31-2021, 12:40 PM   #293
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I'm sure if we sat down and had a couple of beers we could end up friends and you would have a changed mind.

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Friends perhaps, still would oppose you using the wharf as one of your bases for your sight seeing flights. Do it from your own private dock or the store owners private dock.
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Old 05-31-2021, 12:43 PM   #294
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Friends perhaps, still would oppose you using the wharf as one of your bases for your sight seeing flights. Do it from your own private dock or the store owners private dock.
Now the narrative changes to "one of my bases"... And people say I change my story.

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Old 05-31-2021, 01:10 PM   #295
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Epic sounds like a classic snake oil salesman.
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Old 05-31-2021, 01:19 PM   #296
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Now the narrative changes to "one of my bases"... And people say I change my story.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
You have said you give flights from your dock and would do so from pier 19. No changing of story here. Stop fishing to try and start an argument, you have much steeper obstacles than me in front of you. This will be my last post and I know how to keep a promise unlike yourself.
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Old 05-31-2021, 02:59 PM   #297
CowTimes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures View Post
Yes of course! The town ordinance finally permitted the development of the islands! That's it! Because prior to March 9th, 1988, The islands were undeveloped and uninhabited. (Insert sarcasm here. Still hiding behind Cowtimes).

You pushing this point only negates your point. Prior to the town ordinance they were able to use many other places as well. Not until people, not unlike yourself, complained enough about the barges that they made this ordinance. But nice try.

The poor barge companies have been under attack for decades and now you are boxing them in even further. Now your argument may eliminate their usage of the warf as well. You do realize your heading down that road. I hope you don't push the no commercial usage argument in public.

Epic Seaplane Adventures
Epic, you should really get your facts straight before making arguments on the history of Union Wharf and barge use. Did I say the islands were first developed starting in 1988? Yes, the current ordinance was enacted in 1988. But before that, barges were permitted by ordinance to occupy the wharf for up to 4 hours, and before that there was no limitation for barge use. And now, for over 30 years, they have been allowed to use it up to an hour. Barges have always used the wharf since it was built. I can give you more of the history at a town meeting on this issue if this is where you want to base your argument. But please, base your argument on facts and actual history instead of unsupported hyperbolic and sarcastic statements.

Your statement that “barge companies have been under attack for decades” has no basis in fact. My family has been on the islands and involved in the town on issues surrounding the lake and islands for decades, and I have never heard any uproar over barge use of the wharf. The suggestion that a debate over the use of the wharf in a residential zoning area for commercial seaplane use (which has virtually no benefit and only downsides for the town and its residents) could lead to restricting the use of the wharf for barges in a reversal of decades of practice—which benefits hundreds of town residents—is nonsensical.

The only reason barge use is even part of this discussion is because you raised them as a very poor strawman—unaware that their use of the wharf was expressly permitted by town ordinance—to argue that you are entitled to use the wharf for the base of your commercial operation. You simply are not.

Your entire approach in refusing to address direct questions, constantly changing your story, and sarcastic responses (not to mention the poorly conceived publicity stunt on a seaplane ambulance) does nothing for your cause, and only serves to increase your opposition. If you really want to see what mobilized opposition looks like, continue to try to (falsely) frame this as a debate over continued use of the wharf for island residents with barge needs. You will see how full the town house can get with island residents.

The actual issue here is your attempt to use public property for the base of a commercial enterprise. You may not have wanted to hear it, but the selectmen pretty much already told you it wasn’t going to happen.
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Old 05-31-2021, 03:07 PM   #298
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His entire approach and argument has been nothing but throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Unfortunately, it’s ricocheted back pretty spectacularly.
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Old 06-01-2021, 06:16 AM   #299
Closetzguy
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Default Pier 19 store net income...

Lets see:
Existing business volume, less the dock owners she has alienated, less 19 mile bay neighbors that will never enter her store because of sea plane issue, plus the 5 or so seaplanes that may land to by an ice cream each year, should result in much less revenue per year. Am i missing something here?

I hope she survives because I do like her chicken!
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Old 06-01-2021, 06:35 AM   #300
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She has a lot of money and obviously can afford to keep injecting capitol into a business that does not make any money. When she runs out of money and closes her doors in a year or so we can only hope Skelly's buys it at fire sale pricing and opens up there. Now that would be Epic!!!
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