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Old 08-09-2011, 06:53 PM   #1
martbri7
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Question Question about boating?.......

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/ The picture on the front page shows a lady with one of the stand up Paddle boards, my question is if someone on those boards are required to have or be in possesion of a lifevest? I believe Kayaks are required as are canoes.

Just curious I know I would want to wear one just in case.....
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martbri7 View Post
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/ The picture on the front page shows a lady with one of the stand up Paddle boards, my question is if someone on those boards are required to have or be in possesion of a lifevest? I believe Kayaks are required as are canoes.

Just curious I know I would want to wear one just in case.....
Here is the picture that is in the LDS:

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Old 08-09-2011, 07:49 PM   #3
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That link did not open to the subject you referenced but yes, I'd expect a PFD would be required on a standup kayak. I've heard of people being cited for being out in an inner tube. Once you get past the 150' line your 'craft' will be treated like a boat for those rules.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:23 PM   #4
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I thought that this sailboard law might be stretched to cover those paddle boards, but it seem like the law clearly requires a sail.

270:30-c Sailboards. Notwithstanding any other provision of law except RSA 270:30-a, sailboards shall not be required to be equipped with personal flotation devices, and persons on sailboards shall not be required to wear these devices or to have them readily available. For the purposes of this section, "sailboard'' means any unsinkable surfboard with a free-falling mast, sail and boom attached by means of a swivel or flexible universal joint to the hull, which free-falling mast, sail and boom are supported by the sailor in use and act as a sea anchor when released.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:50 PM   #5
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Makes you wonder what the future has for us

first person to run in a hampster ball across Lake Winnipesaukee who's up for it?

**if the video doesn't work, it's a person in a human hampster ball floating on water**



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu8IL...layer_embedded
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:43 AM   #6
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Don't they need a PFD?
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:46 AM   #7
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I think that this is a case where the wording of laws has not kept up with the times. With the recent insurgence of paddle boarders it is time for the NH legislature to change some wording so that indeed these people are required to where PFD....
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:15 AM   #8
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She was right off my beach on Saturday evening. I was checking out some issue with the jet ski around 3:30pm and believe it or not, the Marine Patrol actually passed right by me to speak with her. I would imagine he was either asking her to be safe and wear a PFD or was telling her that she MUST wear a PFD. I wasn't close enough to hear the conversation, but I can confirm that she was approached by the MP.

On a side note - it was actually good to see the MP this year!!!!
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:09 PM   #9
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We have one. I hope they do not mandate a PFD. Its a blast to use close to shore and a great workout
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:48 PM   #10
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Other than the obvious paddle, what is the difference between a paddle boarder and a surf boarder?
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:53 PM   #11
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As I read the law now a PFD is required.

Saf-C 403.01 Personal Flotation Devices.
(a) No person shall use a boat on the public waters unless it is equipped as follows:
(1) Recreational boats less than 16 feet in length, or canoes, kayaks or one-person sailboats of any length, shall have at least one personal flotation device (PFD) of the following types on board for each person...

There exceptions for sailboards and racing shells but no other exceptions, unless somehow this is not a boat.
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrc View Post
As I read the law now a PFD is required.

Saf-C 403.01 Personal Flotation Devices.
(a) No person shall use a boat on the public waters unless it is equipped as follows:
(1) Recreational boats less than 16 feet in length, or canoes, kayaks or one-person sailboats of any length, shall have at least one personal flotation device (PFD) of the following types on board for each person...

There exceptions for sailboards and racing shells but no other exceptions, unless somehow this is not a boat.
Note sure a paddleboard is considered a boat though. If it is wouldnt it have a hull number?
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:02 PM   #13
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Note sure a paddleboard is considered a boat though. If it is wouldnt it have a hull number?
Kayaks and canoes don't have hull numbers (unless they are equipped with a motor).
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:24 PM   #14
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It's not a boat.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:49 AM   #15
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Let me ask this question a different way... If you give a surfer a paddle, does his surfboard somehow become a boat?
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:39 AM   #16
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Sure, the same way a surfboard becomes a boat when you add a sail to it and call it a sailboard! It's a grey area.

If the paddleboard is unsinkable like a sailboard, I would expect to see it lumped in with those and the same "no PFD" rule applied.

To the OP: if you really want to know what the requirement is regarding paddleboards and PFD's, why do you ask here? Call the MP, that's what they're for.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:13 AM   #17
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Most modern canoes are unsinkable, so that logic gets messy. A lot of these definitions are arbitrary, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If i sit down on the paddleboard and paddle like a kayak, how is that different from a sit on top kayak?

This is not a boat?



But this is?

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Old 08-11-2011, 10:42 AM   #18
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Personally I was just looking to enjoy the philosophical discussion of what makes a boat, a boat.

And along those lines... One actually modifies the board to make a sailboard. One does not need to modify the board to use a paddle. I suppose one could always add oarlocks...
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:04 AM   #19
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It reminds me of snow boarding in that it looks like it would be easy to do, but hard to really due well. I mean that when conditions are perfect anyone with good balance should be able to poke around but if conditions deteriorate the skill requirements increase dramatically.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMI Guy View Post
Kayaks and canoes don't have hull numbers (unless they are equipped with a motor).
Not true... My Kayaks both have HINs..... And I believe so does my Canoe....
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:52 AM   #21
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I think TMI means hull registration numbers from the state not hull identification number from the manufacturer. All factory built canoes and kayaks have a HIN. NH does not require a registration number on most canoes or kayaks unless they have a motor.

Does a paddleboard have a hull identification number?

I agree with Jonas, that would be a tough skill to master during rough conditions.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
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I think TMI means hull registration numbers from the state not hull identification number from the manufacturer. All factory built canoes and kayaks have a HIN. NH does not require a registration number on most canoes or kayaks unless they have a motor.

Does a paddleboard have a hull identification number?

I agree with Jonas, that would be a tough skill to master during rough conditions.
That's exactly what I meant. I thought it was evident from the course of the discussion.
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:15 PM   #23
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A Paddleboard is not a Sailboard as defined in RSA 270:30-c and therefore must carry a PFD. There are a number of Type III PFD options out there that would be both comfortable and legal. Consider a inflatable vest or belt pack (must be worn to meet the requirement).

A Paddleboard is a "boat" under RSA 270-D:1:1 "Boat means every description of watercraft other than seaplanes, capable of being used or used as a means of transportation on the water . . ."
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:23 PM   #24
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I don't know how long these boards are. but if they are over 13' and you attach a sail, you then must have it registered. But to be more fun put a 28 hp outboard on it and stand by
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:26 PM   #25
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Knomad shows the rule that makes it a boat. So now it really comes down to enforcement.

And once again some government bureaucrat gets to decide what protections a person must use. Clearly not wearing a PFD increases the chance of drowning. But shouldn't a free adult be able to make that decision themselves? Now we can use cost of rescue and cost of medical care to make anything we want illegal.
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:35 PM   #26
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Post The key legal term here is "intent"....

Always interesting reading these posts, although the best advice was given in Wolfeboro_baja's post; when in doubt always call the NHMP.

People often look at the law, and then throw a thousand "what ifs" in a way to circumvent or find fault with the written regulation. But obviously no few paragraphs can cover every contingency. Nothing is etched in stone, and that is why the defendant is offered the opportunity to have his/her day in court.

But what is often overlooked in these debates is the key element of intent. In most cases, when you have your day in court, the prosecution not only has to prove the violation occurred, but that you also had the intent to break that regulation.

This is an excellent example. And while some of us are hung up on the term boat, the actual definition we should be using is vessel. In some minds the term boat constitutes too narrow of a definition.

Simply put a vessel is anything that is used to cross the water for the intended purpose of transportation, regardless of what that mode of transportation may be.

So if you are simply floating about your shoreline in a swim raft, inner tube or surfboard your intent is simply rest & relaxation, not transportation.

Take that same innertube, swim raft or even a cardboard box and rig it so that you are now crossing the broads or island hopping and your intent now is clearly one of transportation (along with the rest & relaxation it may provide). Under these circumstances your device is now a vessel (or boat if you prefer) and you fall under the applicable legal requirements for that type of vessel. And obviously many items are clearly vessels no matter how you intend to use them, so they always fall under the pertinent regulation.

It's kind of like the town drunk that decides to use the riding lawnmower to get that third case of beer. Normally the lawnmower is not considered a vehicle, but take it out on the main drag while intoxicated and you will be successfully prosecuted (hopefully) for Driving While Intoxicated! It all fell back to what your intent was when you took that mower out on the open road.

Yes, it is a judgement call on the officer's part, but he will clearly need to articulate to a judge why he formed the opinion that you were using your particular item as a vessel for transportation purposes. That is the legal standard necessary to define the so called "gray area" between an item being used as a vessel or simply for recreational purposes.

Hope this helps explain it a little better. And the call to the NHMP is necessary as they may have already determined as a matter of policy that this particular device is a vessel, and officers are instructed/ordered to react as such.

None the less an interesting discussion with some very good points being made!
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Old 08-11-2011, 07:44 PM   #27
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I agree with Kamper's post. Any "conveyance" on the water, 150' or greater from shore, I would think, technically, would have to follow the rules for life-jackets. Seems like a smart thing to wear/have handy, anyways.

Seeing Rusty's pic, & Ryan's post, I would bet the NHMP probably told her she needed one.

If anyone gets a chance to talk to NHMP about this, let us know how the conversation goes.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:06 PM   #28
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Default Lets go back

It was around 1955. I was 14. I lived in Paterson, NJ and the waterway was the Passiac River. My first boat was three logs lashed together with a piece of rope. I stood on this raft and used a pole to move the raft. I didn't have..or wear a PFD. No One was concerned.

Later on, I had an 8' hydroplane with a 10 hp outboard on the back. I didn't have or wear a PFD. I did have a life "cushion" that would save me. I also knew how to swim. No One was concerned.

I'm still here .....and an even more obnoxious individual than ever.

Maybe we should just suspend ALL stupid laws that are meant to save me.

Let's look at it another way..that would please Liberals and all those concerned with Global Warming, Overpopulation etc. If I died because of my own stupidity...then the population would be LESS. This would be GOOD.. No...????

I think the hypocrisy of the Left is Glaring. NB
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:16 PM   #29
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Smile Most regulations enjoyed broad bipartisanship!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBozo View Post
...Let's look at it another way..that would please Liberals and all those concerned with Global Warming, Overpopulation etc. If I died because of my own stupidity...then the population would be LESS. This would be GOOD.. No...????

I think the hypocrisy of the Left is Glaring... NB
I do not want to let this interesting thread digress into another political diatribe, our over extended Web Master has much more important issues to deal with here.

However virtually all of the boating laws we currently operate under here in NH, including these particular pertinent regulations under discussion, were introduced, debated and ultimatley passed by Republican controlled legislatures and in most cases signed into law by a Republican Governor.

If one is upset by the bulk of the State safety regulations governing how we boat here in New Hampshire then one also has to be cognizant that these regulations exist because of actions and support from both sides of the political aisle!
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:36 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBozo View Post
It was around 1955. I was 14. I lived in Paterson, NJ and the waterway was the Passiac River. My first boat was three logs lashed together with a piece of rope. I stood on this raft and used a pole to move the raft. I didn't have..or wear a PFD. No One was concerned.

Later on, I had an 8' hydroplane with a 10 hp outboard on the back. I didn't have or wear a PFD. I did have a life "cushion" that would save me. I also knew how to swim. No One was concerned.

I'm still here .....and an even more obnoxious individual than ever.

Maybe we should just suspend ALL stupid laws that are meant to save me.

Let's look at it another way..that would please Liberals and all those concerned with Global Warming, Overpopulation etc. If I died because of my own stupidity...then the population would be LESS. This would be GOOD.. No...????

I think the hypocrisy of the Left is Glaring. NB


Sometimes I wonder how we EVER managed to grow up without all the rules and regulations they have now. But we did, didn't we??!!
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Old 08-12-2011, 10:11 AM   #31
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It's hard to pick a "good" political party on the subject of safety rules, both sides get carried away. Obviously we as voters could fix this but it it's really hard to rally people around the "people have a right to drown" platform. So once these rules and laws get in it's really hard to get them out.

And remember a lot of these become rules because the agency makes up a rule. The Congress and Governor are not voting individually on every rule.

Skip is right that the practical answer in a gray area is "whatever the NHMP decides to enforce". So essentially it's rule by fiat, unless you want to spend your time and money to fight it. Remember, the process is the punishment. Are you going to pay the small fine or spend more, take time off work and see if you can convince the judge you are right?

So did anyone ask NHMP yet?
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Old 08-12-2011, 11:32 AM   #32
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You really can't legislate against stupidity. I just looked out my window and noted two women "over a certain age" standing upright on two of these devices in the channel between Little Bear and Long Island at least 300 feet from shore. Neither was very steady on these craft"" and seemed to be flipping around their paddles. No PFD on them or on the boards. I used my binocs to make sure they were OK and the paddle flipping went along with the general stupidity and was not a distress signal. The last I saw, they were pretty close to shore so I assume they made it (this time).
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Old 08-12-2011, 02:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee View Post
You really can't legislate against stupidity. I just looked out my window and noted two women "over a certain age" standing upright on two of these devices in the channel between Little Bear and Long Island at least 300 feet from shore. Neither was very steady on these craft"" and seemed to be flipping around their paddles. No PFD on them or on the boards. I used my binocs to make sure they were OK and the paddle flipping went along with the general stupidity and was not a distress signal. The last I saw, they were pretty close to shore so I assume they made it (this time).
Perhaps this is a new form of pugilistic watersport. The idea is to whack the other person with your paddle in such a way as to knock them off the board. Whacking the other person while they are in the water would not be permitted.

There probably should be a New Law that covers this activity..such as: You must wear protective headgear, ...and a wetsuit if the water temperature is below 68 degrees. You can never know How Many Lives will be Saved or Created by thoughtfull legislation. Just thinking out loud. NB
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Old 08-15-2011, 10:05 AM   #34
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The person I am aware of that got ticketted paddling inner-tube was south of the Governor's island bridge. He got the 'pool-toy' comparison I have previously mentionned. It's possible he would have been ignored in a less trafficked area.
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:10 AM   #35
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seems like the coast guard has weighed in on this. USCG rules don't apply on the lake but the Marine Patrol will usually adopt similar rules and definitions.

http://www.uscgnews.com/go/doc/786/233959/
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:16 PM   #36
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Talking PDF's are required for paddle boarding!

I noticed this post and I wanted to give a real solid answer to this.
I am head paddle instructor at www.supnh.com (Stand Up Paddle board NH)

I also been paddle boarding Winnipesaukee since 2006. I was looked at like a weirdo back then. (that's another story)

The women in the picture paddle boarding from the Laconia Daily Sun was wearing a PDF. It was around her waist/ looks like a fanny pack, it inflates when you pull the handle. Some of the hot headed marine patrol will not accept this waist PDF, others are okay with it.

The board itself is 11 foot long and is a GIANT PDF! with that said, if you ever slipped off and bumped your head on the board. That's bad news bears for you!
HONESTLY !If you are going for a long paddle across Winnipesaukee than be smart. i hope to see everyone out on the water this season, be safe!
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:23 PM   #37
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Smile One more thing!

oops! I almost forgot to mention that paddle boards are now considered boats since 2010. Before that it was okay to have Belt inflation device. SUP has become popular so now they treat it like a boat. You have to have a vest type device! and a whistle!!

I mentioned the picture of the women paddling with the waist PFD.
I did this because at the time of her photograph it was acceptable to wear belt devices on a paddleboard. No one would have given her a hard time back then.

Even the WPA(world paddle association) changed their certification for SUP and told old students to use vests now.

If anyone has any paddle board questions please feel free to ask

chris@supnh.com
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:38 PM   #38
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Two summers ago I was put on my Versa-board. http://liquidlogickayaks.com/versa.cfm
It was a windy day and I fell off the board. I wasn't wearing a PFD. As it was, I fell off in a rocky, shoal area behind a small island that sits in front of my house. Family and friends could see the paddleboard floating/sailing down the bay, and had no idea that I was safely standing on a rock.

They were scared initially...concerned for my safety. I never go out now without a PFD and I don't allow guests to use the board without a PFD.
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:12 PM   #39
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In answer to the original question. You definitely need a life jacket. I go out on mine a lot in Wolfeboro bay and Marine Patrol has stopped me three times. Luckily I had one with me, You just need to have it strapped to the board somehow you do not have to have the life jacket on however. Marine Patrol is def cracking down on people who are out without jackets. So always being one with you
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Old 04-15-2013, 06:42 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by RobertsCove0 View Post
In answer to the original question. You definitely need a life jacket. I go out on mine a lot in Wolfeboro bay and Marine Patrol has stopped me three times. Luckily I had one with me, You just need to have it strapped to the board somehow you do not have to have the life jacket on however. Marine Patrol is def cracking down on people who are out without jackets. So always being one with you
They should be required wearing though.
As mentioned, a fall and a head bang without it on doesn't help much.
I can see in a canoe or kayak but on a stand up board.
Yes they can be uncomfortable to wear if you do not have the proper one, but they make jackets that are comfortable when paddling, my wife just bought one last fall for when she is out on her kayak.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:08 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by SUP New Hampshire View Post
oops! I almost forgot to mention that paddle boards are now considered boats since 2010. Before that it was okay to have Belt inflation device. SUP has become popular so now they treat it like a boat. You have to have a vest type device! and a whistle!!

I mentioned the picture of the women paddling with the waist PFD.
I did this because at the time of her photograph it was acceptable to wear belt devices on a paddleboard. No one would have given her a hard time back then.

Even the WPA(world paddle association) changed their certification for SUP and told old students to use vests now.

If anyone has any paddle board questions please feel free to ask

chris@supnh.com
Can't for the life of me figure out where you are going with this rant about 'inflatables used to be OK' etc., and hot headed Marine Patrol officers citing for this kind of PFD. I do think you have brought forth two very good suggestions though.

One is a PFD, carry it, strap it to the board or as in the case of this smart paddler pictured, WEAR IT. Doesn't interfere with motion or tan, is Type III USCG approved and not to be worn by those under 16 and is not an unsightly blob in your paddle styling. Simple right? So now think of that last statement, visibility, and that it just might not be immediately evident to you or a MP officer that she has a PFD. Might invite a closer inspection by a safety conscious officer don't you think?

Second is the whistle, audible over good distance, shrill sound different from other ambient noises and doesn't need a lot of breath to activate. Legally it is not required on a manually powered vessel but it sure makes a heap of sense to spend $3-5.00 to have one and attach it to your person or PFD.

And Belmont Resident, how much regulation do responsible adults need? You have seat belts in your car and you can choose to wear them if you are 18 or older. Your choice for safety. Motorcycle helmet for adults? Your choice for safety. The law states you must have a PFD on a boat of any kind but if you are 13 or over you have a choice to wear (Captain notwithstanding).

Please people, lets not cry for a law for every little thing, let's incorporate some common sense-everyday.

Let's go get the bottom wet.
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